Trump's New York Indictment Was Just the Beginning of His Legal Woes
The Manhattan case stinks of partisan politics, but Trump faces more serious legal jeopardy on at least three other fronts.

When former President Donald Trump arrived at a Manhattan courthouse on April 4, crowds of people and rows of TV cameras were there to witness an unprecedented moment: the first-ever arraignment of a former U.S. president. How quickly can something this important be relegated to the footnotes of American presidential history? We may be about to find out.
The New York charges against Trump stem from his payment of $130,000 to porn performer Stormy Daniels as part of a nondisclosure agreement aimed at keeping her from telling the press about the affair she says Trump had with her in 2006. Michael Cohen, then Trump's attorney, paid Daniels shortly before the 2016 presidential election, and Trump reimbursed him with a series of checks in 2017. The Trump Organization, the business entity that Trump and his family control, described the payments as compensation for legal services.
Federal prosecutors viewed Cohen's payment to Daniels as an illegal campaign contribution, on the theory that it was intended to influence the election. Cohen pleaded guilty to that offense in August 2018. Since Cohen said he paid Daniels at Trump's behest, his guilty plea implied that Trump could be prosecuted for accepting an illegal campaign contribution. But the Justice Department never pursued that charge.
To convert that unproven violation of federal law into a state crime, Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg cited a New York law dealing with falsification of business records. That offense becomes a felony when it is committed with the intent to conceal "another crime." Bragg said Trump therefore was guilty of 34 felonies—one for each invoice, check, and ledger entry related to Cohen's reimbursement. That strategy boils down to prosecuting Trump under state law for a federal campaign finance violation that the Justice Department never bothered to allege.
Questioning the legal merits of Bragg's case does not imply that former presidents should be shielded from charges when there is compelling evidence that they have committed crimes. Bragg surely is right to reject the notion that prosecutors should eschew such cases to spare the nation from "bitter controversy and divisive national debate." That was how President Gerald Ford justified his pardon of former President Richard Nixon, who came closer to facing a criminal indictment than any chief executive before Trump.
Presidents are just people. When they commit crimes, they should be held accountable. The controversy and debate are part of the process, whether we like it or not, and they are better than the alternative of giving high-ranking elected officials a free pass to break the law. Mayors, governors, and heads of foreign governments have faced indictments (and convictions) throughout history. There's no reason to exempt U.S. presidents.
Even so, the case against Trump in Manhattan looks shaky and stinks of partisan politics. But the former president faces more serious legal jeopardy on at least three other fronts.
Fulton County, Georgia, District Attorney Fani Willis is investigating Trump's alleged attempts to strong-arm Georgia officials into overturning the results of that state's 2020 presidential vote. In a phone call a few days after the election, for example, Trump urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find 11,780 votes"—the number Trump needed to win the state. That seems to be a fairly plain violation of Georgia's law against "criminal solicitation to commit election fraud."
Willis' investigation extends beyond that one phone call. In January 2022, she convened a grand jury to investigate attempts to "disrupt the lawful administration" of the 2020 election. Witnesses interviewed by the grand jury included former Trump confidant Rudy Giuliani and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R–S.C.). In letters to local law enforcement released in April, Willis said possible criminal charges against Trump and his allies would be announced between July 11 and September 1.
Jack Smith, a special counsel appointed by Attorney General Merrick Garland, is investigating the January 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol. Dozens of subpoenas have been issued to just about everyone in Trump's inner circle on that day, including Vice President Mike Pence, who was a target of the rioters' ire. The Democrat-led House committee that investigated the riot argued that Trump broke four federal laws in the lead-up to January 6, and Smith may reach similar conclusions.
Smith also is investigating Trump's alleged mishandling of classified records. In addition to any charges directly connected to the trove of material found at Mar-a-Lago during an FBI search in August 2022, Trump (and his lawyers) could be in trouble for lying to the government about the documents.
Although it would be folly to predict how any of this will turn out, it is no longer crazy to think Trump could find himself fighting additional criminal charges. The Georgia case, in particular, could be important in setting clear standards for how much pressure future presidents can exert on state and local election officials. And unlike a convoluted payout to a former fling, election integrity actually matters.
Much of Trump's relatively brief political career has been without precedent in American history. He upended the conventional wisdom about how to win a presidential election, governed with a reckless disregard for the rules and norms that limit presidential power, and left office amid a disgraceful attempt to overturn the results of an election. He became the first president to be impeached twice.
In this context, Trump's indictment and arraignment in New York feel like more of the same. But there may yet be another twist: Depending on how these legal cases play out, the historic first-time indictment of a former president may be little more than a footnote in the Trump saga.
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The walls are closing in!
We got him now!! Face it , both sides have pulled this crap for years.
The blind "bOtH sIdEz!" faith is strong in this one...
Face it, you're full of shit.
I don't remember both sides having traitors.
Trump is a traitor?
It always amazes me how quickly people resort to hyperbole against political opponents.
Ask Tony why he thinks Trump is a "traitor". The answer will amuse you.
I have never seen this much concentrated political and legal effort against another POTUS or ex-POTUS in my entire life. I figure the level of effort by the Left to keep POTUS Trump out of office is directly proportional to the amount of pain he caused them with his policies that benefitted the poor and middle class (pre-Covid).
Example of what I mean: SALT limitations in the tax code, in exchange for higher standard deduction. These are the kinds of policies that pissed off the Leftist, bicoastal elites.
If POTUS Trump gets re-elected (I doubt this, personally), I hope he utterly tears apart the federal bureaucracy.
The entire thing needs to have a chainsaw applied to take it back to constitutional limits.
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Correct.
Which is why I support kamikaze 2024
Trump was, in some ways, the most transparent and even honest President ever; you always knew what he wanted and what he cared about, no matter how whack it was. He spent all four years trying to finagle that border wall; Obama spent one day trying to shut down Gitmo and gave up. The only really useful thing he accomplished was slowing down regulations. He should have vetoed every spending bill coming across his desk, at least put the spenders on record, and he should have fired Fauci, Brix, and a whole lot of other burrocrats. His tariffs were pure corruption and counter-productive.
But he pissed off the Dem and GOP regulars something fierce. The first impeachment was a joke; the second one made the first one look serious. The Jan 6 hearings were a further joke, biased, one-sided, fraudulent. The NYC prosecution is a joke.
The Deep State will probably get Trump in the end, one corrupt way or another. But in the process, they have made it clear how weak their cases have been, so much that half the country doesn't believe any anti-Trump legal action. They have tainted their anti-Trump cause beyond recovery, no matter how much actual real evidence they manage to dredge up.
Trump was, in some ways, the most transparent and even honest President ever; you always knew what he wanted and what he cared about
Wow, you are completely full of shit.
Take abortion - Donnie was pro-choice his entire life then ran for president and became anti-choice to the point he wanted to put mothers/docs into prison. But then he was "corrected" in that you can't say that out loud and wasn't trusted by the Aborto-Freak Fundie Nuts until he was supplied a "approved justice' list by the Federalist Society.
"Transparent" - yeah, Fatass Donnie lied about the most important issue to the GOP until he learned how to play the part of a "Pro-Life" asshole instead of the pro-choice Pussy Grabber he really is.
Besides overlooking "in some ways", you also overlook your own far shadier past.
A few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. The link below details all the evidence surrounding that ban. A decent person would honor that ban and stay away from Reason. Instead you keep showing up, acting as if all people should just be ok with a kiddy-porn-posting asshole hanging around. Since I cannot get you to stay away, the only thing I can do is post this boilerplate.
https://reason.com/2022/08/06/biden-comforts-the-comfortable/?comments=true#comment-9635836
You do realize that by attacking the person while ignoring what they say you're basically saying "I can't refute what you're saying and I'm not man enough to admit it, so instead I'm gonna throw poo like a monkey!"
Are you defending his kiddie porn?
Are you saying he actually had an argument? The closest he got was to say "transparent" was a lie, and I pointed out he missed my "in some ways".
So here I point out you are an idiot, and you missed me pointing out that he missed something I wrote.
Fuck off. Mute me. I double dog dare you.
No response 35 minutes later, while you responded with your lie 10 minutes after the previous response.
Maybe you have finally muted me again.
turd, a TDS-addled asshole and the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
More importantly, Trump tweeted hundreds of his thoughts on numerous topics. Many were self-contradictory, but these were raw ideas, not carefully polished, scripted, spin turds as we got from O’Bama (the most secretive of recent Prez’s) or diatribes of deranged drool from SloJo. You may not have known which of Trump’s tweets was his final word, but it was all out there.
Part of that is because Trump never really stated the goals of his presidency. (Other than building the wall and locking her up.) Since Trump made hardly any promises, Trump really didn't have that many promises he could break.
Well, actually, he did break his promise to lock up Hilary Clinton.
"...Well, actually, he did break his promise to lock up Hilary Clinton."
When the DOJ refuses to charge an obvious criminal, it's hard to blame the guy whose directives the DOJ won't follow.
If POTUS Trump gets re-elected (I doubt this, personally), I hope he utterly tears apart the federal bureaucracy.
You might think that any GOP nominee getting elected, along with a GOP House and a GOP Senate, would utterly tear apart the federal bureaucracy. And you might think that flying unicorns shitting gold nickels would fix the national debt, too.
^
Whoever promises flying unicorns shitting gold nickels over my house will get my vote.
Maybe because previous presidents weren't law breaking traitors?
Could that be it? Could it just be trying to hold someone accountable for being a corrupt criminal?
no
How was Trump a traitor, Tony. Tell everyone your "rationale".
If anyone is a corrupt criminal, it is the sitting pResident of the White House.
Fifty years as a "public servant" making 150, 200 grand a year and has a net worth of millions, and at least two houses in prime real estate.
Nothing Trump has been accused of, is anything but a process crime, and politically motivates, proven by the number of LieCheatSteal party supporters, who did far worse and were given a pass.
I had an income in that range and retired early with a net worth in millions similar to Biden’s. It’s not that hard to do.
You're so utterly full of shit.
At 150k a year it would take you 10 years just to reach 1 million, and that’s only if your expenses (including taxes) we’re only 50k…..
""Could it just be trying to hold someone accountable for being a corrupt criminal?""
The only person they seem to want to hold accountable is Trump or anyone who worked with or supports.
It's principals not principles and it's obvious as fuck to anyone who isn't a Trump hater.
He would be crazy not to. I wouldn't blame him if he went full-on Hun-Mongol-Medieval on the entire rotten corrupted stinking system.
So this indictment is political hackery, but surely the next one will be solid. I guess having hope is good.
Or "Repeating the same action..."
"The Manhattan case stinks of partisan politics"
And the others don't?
Not the Georgia phone call. That was Trump calling Republicans, casting aspersions on their competency and making veiled threats.
"and making veiled threats."
What part was a veiled threat, Mike? Give us a quote.
Trump dead-enders tell me the constant drama surrounding him actually helps him.
Trump could win the next election by doing nothing but showing Conservatives his mug shot every day, assuming there is one. Democrats haven't yet figured out how dangerous this game is.
Well, Dilbert, I suppose that's one theory.
Or maybe Democrats want Trump to win the nomination because they know Independent voters were already sick of him by 2020 and all he's done since then is pile up losses and humiliations.
#PiedPiper2ElectricBoogaloo
YOU know that the Trump Cult will stand by Fatass until the GOP is ruined for 2024.
2024 - a year they should pick up 6-8 Senate seats and stomp the old senile coot in the White House.
But Fatass Donnie wants his reality-president gig back.
A few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. The link below details all the evidence surrounding that ban. A decent person would honor that ban and stay away from Reason. Instead you keep showing up, acting as if all people should just be ok with a kiddy-porn-posting asshole hanging around. Since I cannot get you to stay away, the only thing I can do is post this boilerplate.
https://reason.com/2022/08/06/biden-comforts-the-comfortable/?comments=true#comment-9635836
It would boost your credibility if you made some attempt at day-to-day consistency. Here you assert Biden sucks and the 2024 environment should be terrible for Democrats.
But the other day you were raving about how awesome Biden is. You've spent his entire Presidency as the official hype man for his economy. You've also said Putin has effectively lost already and it's all over but his inevitable hanging. If Biden is doing that well domestically and abroad, he should be a lock for reelection no matter who his opponent is. And the fantastic economy should help down-ballot Democrats.
#MakeUpYourMind
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
Amanda Anisimova would have been too old for him back in 2016!
No no no, it can't be a cult.
Certainly the people flying flags and saying *everything* is a witch hunt are definitely not in a cult.
Eat shit and die, TDS-addled asshole.
What are we talking trump or pride month now?
and Mt comes in with the 360-thunder dunk
Tjhere was a witch hunt.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
HIllary Rodham Clinton will hencforth be known as the Cunt®™.
Do you worship the Cunt®™?
Do you fantasize about licking the Cunt®™?
"and saying *everything* is a witch hunt"
You mean like the Trump/Russia hoax? Aren't you true believers still pretending it was real?
Or maybe Democrats want Trump to win the nomination because they know Independent voters were already sick of him by 2020 and all he’s done since then is pile up losses and humiliations.
Or maybe… [pulls sheet of tin foil off roll, begins crumpling into hat shape] Ron DeSantis is *also* a plant by the Democrats to get a more moderate, ball-playing NeoCon in office and get things like the First Step Act repealed! And Trump, DeSantis, and Pence are all plants (Pence made a deal to refuse the VPs ability to scrutinize the votes!) to keep some political nobody like Ramaswamy from getting the nod!
Maybe the votes *and* the candidates are *all* rigged and, at this point, the only way out is a shooting solution.
Betcha didn’t think of that didja!? 12-D check.mate.
https://twitter.com/CalifornianOkie/status/1666545573254807553?t=-KzLW6ybeZWVb4_O8rKMYg&s=19
The psychic pain that unsavory realities cause the normal range IQ person is so great, they would rather ignore it to the point of submitting to whatever horror it is. Volatility in the modal individual is a BAD thing if you want a stable society. Always preach to the margins.
More of your cutesy faux-debating. You can't dispute the main point about a Trump nomination being the best thing that could happen from a Democratic POV. So all you have is nitpicking and sarcasm.
More of your cutesy faux-debating.
Aww... you picked an "Or maybe..." fight and lost. Sad.
Arguing with a TDS-addled pile of shit will get those sorts of responses.
Watching Repubs continue to elevate a prior loser who never had 50% support in this country, who would be an instant lame duck president if elected (which is remotely possible at best), and who has cast aside many conservative positions to attack opponents has just been both baffling and intriguing.
It really is remarkable how often people are their own worst enemies, and political parties do that very well.
He got 12 million more votes in 2020.
And lost by over 7 million votes to a corpse in a basement.
Thanks to TDS-addled shit-piles like you.
If you believe that, I've got a big orange bridge I can let you have, cheap.
"It really is remarkable how often people are their own worst enemies, and political parties do that very well."
Further remarkable are TDS-addled shit-piles continuing attempts at justifying their imbecilic actions and comments.
Fuck off and die.
Squirrel is right. Do you want Trump, as damaged as he is, or do you want things to get better? The Donkeys have plenty of shit to attack and neuter aTrump term; it would be a constant legal circus.
If Trump were a man dedicated to his principles (ok, pipe dream), he would withdraw and toss his support to DeSantis to finish the Trump revolution. Trump will never get suburban women back; he’s doomed.
Sorry to disappoint you all.
LOL
Yea, I'm sure "things will (magically) get better" if the Rs just nominate someone the cabal will allow to win.
Great call!
Definitely best to just trust the system so we can vote our way out. I mean, there's no precedent for that working in human history, but whatevs.
Wouldn't want to deal with the discomfort of sending in a kamikaze to blow it all up.
No, totes best to just find an establishment approved candidate and continue submitting to globalist totalitarianism.
I'm sure the rapidly declining trend in our liberty and quality of life will just stop and reverse direction of its own volition.
Again, no precedent in human history for it, but false hope in the status quo will be so much better than doing anything hard...
There’s only two viable scenarios, neither of which bode well for getting any meaningful change done, and both of which don’t matter for a Trump nomination:
1) Biden legitimately won without having to pied piper anything. And Independents really were tired of him in 2020. I think the news of his “loses and humiliations” have been greatly exaggerated, but lots of people have bought into that narrative, so who knows. In which case Trump getting nominated means dick.
Or
2) TPTB did exactly what they said they did in that Time Magazine article and “fortified democracy”. Which again, means fuck all for whichever Republican gets the nomination.
i guess this is the new normal going fwd.
It used to be you’d dig up any dirt you could find on your opponent and throw it at him during the campaign to ‘taint the brand’ enough to get your own sleaze-bag into office. Now you do the same thing but pass it off to your own sleaze-bag soros funded lawyers to litigate any potential candidate to death before he can campaign.
And just like with ballot harvesting and manufacturing the other side has to adopt the tactics because otherwise you just concede the race at the starting gate. The elections going fwd – or maybe just the candidates will be chosen by the corrupt DAs and corrupt judges and compromised juries from partisan jury pools.
So much for a representative democratic republic – it will represent the capture of the legal system by the left.
Just ask any J6 defendant that faces a DC judge and jury.
John Fund wrote long ago that people are no longer put in office by elections, but by grand juries and investigating committees.
You got buzzword bingo dumbass!
"left", "soros", "partisan"
I bet you can outdo yourself next time even.
hmmm I guess you had no argument to offer
you know you have no credibility yourself, right?
Uh, you do realize "Bingo" is five letters long, right? That, even with the free-space, 3 doesn't cut it?
Forget about Ersatz, there's some illiterate octogenarian out there, who can't remember their own name, that's more than a match for you.
"there’s some illiterate octogenarian out there, who can’t remember their own name, that’s more than a match for you."
Lol, Tony can't even beat Hank.
Did you really pick the one image where the lens flare gave the man an orange clown nose?
Reason has a long tradition of the most unflattering photos of politicians they can get their hands on.
Do most of them look like the patient from the classic electronic board game Operation?
No, there are a wide variety of ways a photo can be unflattering.
That must be why they kept using that halo picture of Obama…
They probably Photoshopped it in.
I don't have a lot of faith this traitorous fuck will face real consequences for his numerous crimes but I do at least hope it convinces enough people to not vote for him in 2024.
But I've been surprised by the endless stupidity and hatred by the average American voter before sadly.
hmmm more bingo traitor, crimes , hatred.... you’re not a dumbass – just a useful idiot
see? I get how you operate! its easy – just blank my mind of any integrity and cognitive function and let the hate and talking points flow
The traitor meme was started by the Cunt®™, legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton!
I’m all for prosecutorial leniency for Trump to avoid further national division, and, frankly, to not feed the MAGAs appetite for outrage.
However, to me, his Georgia phone call is beyond the pale. He deserves to have the book thrown at him for that one.
The phone call was protected by the First Amendment.
Petitioning can not be a crime!
https://reason.com/2023/06/08/trumps-new-york-indictment-is-just-the-beginning/?comments=true#comment-10099602
It was merely a petition, no more than that!
"However, to me, his Georgia phone call is beyond the pale."
Look at Mike pretend that this faux outrage was the straw that broke the camels' back.
He's been pulling the same rhetorical stunt for years now:
The White Knight
January.6.2021 at 5:07 pm
It is now crystal clear Trump is monster. If you still support him, you are a bad person. There is no ambiguity, no wiggle room anymore.
"The White Knight
January.6.2021 at 5:07 pm
It is now crystal clear Trump is monster. If you still support him, you are a bad person. There is no ambiguity, no wiggle room anymore."
Well, he has been found to be guilty of being Donald Trump. To TDS-addled shits like WK, that's quite enough.
Draws deep breath…
Fuck it, it’s not worth the time. From Ford’s pardon of Nixon to Trump’s engagement with the Georgia Secretary of State, Boehm demonstrates such a profound lack of mastery with the material that tearing this article apart would be cruel and unusual punishment.
Got to be cautious in the future: tell someone to "find the car keys" might be taken to mean they should go steal a car for you.
How is that a relevant analogy at all for anything Trump has done?
Yes, he does have a mob boss-like talent for not coming right out and saying what unlawful acts he wants his underlings, associates, and fans to perform. A lot of that isn’t his cleverness; it’s just his inability to speak in complete, cogent sentences.
List his crimes, including on his tax returns.
As I said above, there is only one crime for which I would like to see him prosecuted: interference in Georgia’s election:
https://www.gainesvilleregister.com/news/signs-point-to-mid-august-decision-on-trump-charges-in-georgia/article_6a6ad9d3-cbb2-5493-a2d7-9863b404c722.html
The 26-person Special Purpose Grand Jury, which recommended indictments following its 9 month investigation interviewing 75 witness, looked into Trump’s phone calls with Georgia officials; more than a dozen Georgia Republicans who signed a certificate falsely declaring Trump as the winner; and the alleged copying of data and software from election equipment in Coffee County by a computer forensics team hired by Trump allies.
Trump has the right to petition Government officials for the redress of grievances.
Again, if noe one was punished for the Steele dossier, why should a mere petition be punished?
https://reason.com/2023/06/08/trumps-new-york-indictment-is-just-the-beginning/?comments=true#comment-10099602
Again, if noe one was punished for the Steele dossier, why should a mere petition be punished?
Yes, there is bias in how cases are prosecuted. That is still not a defense. "That other guy got off" is not a legal defense.
The othwer guy got off openly crerates something called precedent.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2021/12/16/from-the-i-dont-understand-this-at-all-files-2/
Kevin Clinesmith is on your side.
The Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) is on your side.
Peter Strzok is on your side.
John Podesta is on your side.
Michael McCrum is on your side.
That is not how precedent works. For it to be a precedent relevant to the Georgia phone call, the matters being judged would have to be related, the jurisdictions would have to be related.
My side? My side is partisan-independent classical liberalism.
So Trump desercves the same pass the Cunt®™ and her drippings got?
Your conflating a bunch of matters.
As I said above -- and I know you saw the comment because you replied to it -- I think Trump should not be prosecuted for taking sensitive documents home with him:
https://reason.com/2023/06/08/trumps-new-york-indictment-is-just-the-beginning/?comments=true#comment-10099305
I have the opposite opinion about Hillary Clinton. I think she should have been prosecuted.
I think Trump should be prosecuted for his Georgia election interference, but there is no Hillary Clinton parallel for that case.
I don't think Trump has ever committed any crimes.
Not one.
For the past six id seven years or so we've had the full weight of the left, the left's republican pawns, most of the media, the DoJ, the online communication giants and more trying to pin a crime to him--
Russian collusion, obstruction, abuse of power, rape, racial intimidation. So many things. And this is the best they've got?
A trumped up misdemeanor redefined as a felony solely and transparently for the purpose of hanging a felony around Trump's neck so he can't run.
The deliberate misconstruing of an exhortation to find him more votes as an order to fake votes.
A continuation of trying to fabricate the J6 protests into an organized rebellion
And a continuation of trying to coax a charge out of obfuscating a president's right to declassify at will.
After all this time that's all they have --and if they do manage to indict, every single one of these charges NEEDS a kangaroo court to proceed.
Whatever happened to 'three felonies a day'? Seven years and they can't even find one.
It'd be terrific if Boehm could find just one more politico as clean as Trump. He can't.
The deliberate misconstruing of an exhortation to find him more votes as an order to fake votes.
Not misconstrued at all. Trump had no legitimate reason whatsoever to make that phone call.
Not misconstrued at all. Trump had no legitimate reason whatsoever to make that phone call.
Of course he did. To ask how it was going. In elections, people do that all the time.
They also say things like 'get me those votes' find me those votes' even, 'I just need x number of votes to cinch this--get me those votes'.
Hence the term 'misconstrued'.
You lot love misconstruing things. Like when you ask, 'will you accept the results of the election?' and someone says 'if it's honest' and you turn to your audience and say 'see, they won't accept the results!'
You lot love misconstruing things. Like when you ask, ‘will you accept the results of the election?’ and someone says ‘if it’s honest’ and you turn to your audience and say ‘see, they won’t accept the results!’
I assume you mean some vague, metaphorical "you" because I have never had a conversation like that nor said words like that.
How many thousands of double votes did they find in Georgia again?
“a president’s right to declassify at will”
Trump himself doesn’t believe he had the right to declassify documents at will. He said as much in a recently-revealed recording.
How is that different from what Hillary Clinton did?
It's not all that different.
"...The Democrat-led House committee that investigated the riot argued that Trump broke four federal laws in the lead-up to January 6, and Smith may reach similar conclusions..."
This should be a real laugh riot, folks.
"...That seems to be a fairly plain violation of Georgia's law against "criminal solicitation to commit election fraud."..."
You left out: 'If read by a TDS-addled pile of shit'
"...Smith also is investigating Trump's alleged mishandling of classified records..."
What "classified" records?
Who'd you vote for Erik? Still trying to make it look like you are not consumed by your raging case of TDS?
Stick a running rusty chain saw up your ass.
While we can't read Trump's mind about what "find votes" mean, we do know there have been numerous instances of ballots being inadvertently left in trunks of cars, of ballot counts being transposed by incompetent election workers, of audits that showed errors in tabulation, etc. etc. So "find me votes" doesn't necessarily mean "manufacture me some fraudulent votes."
What next, prosecuting an incumbent candidate for saying, on election night, "We are going to win this thing" after early results show said candidate is well behind in early results?
"...So “find me votes” doesn’t necessarily mean “manufacture me some fraudulent votes.”..."
This is a measure of how far the justice system is being distorted in order to find SOMETHING to hang on Trump.
The former standard for prosecution was 'can we find, beyond a reasonable doubt that X is truly guilty of committing this specific crime?'
In the case of this particular individual, it has become 'if you squint just right, can't you see how his comment might, possibly, be construed as a violation of some arcane ordinance found only in the city where we brought the charges!!!? WELL, CAN'T YOU!!!!!!!?
This soet of thing started with thew prosecution of Rick Perry.
See here.
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=3857818
So “find me votes” doesn’t necessarily mean “manufacture me some fraudulent votes.”
Making the phone call at all was highly inappropriate. And he made the call well after Georgia had investigated incidents such as you give in your examples.
It was his constitutional right to petition for the redress of grievances.
lol you're serious, aren't you?
There was no substance to that reply.
You want to criminlize the plain exercise of a constitutional right!
Your side supported the indictment if Rick Perry!
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=161693
Youir side defended Kevin Clinesmith!
Your side defended the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) and Crossfire Hurricane!
Right, sure, “your side”.
substance isn't required here only mockery.
I have checked myself from insulting you on many occasions, but I'll come right out and say you are the stupidest commenter in the commentariat.
Shrike is the dumbest motherfucker to post here. Dillinger just hates you.
#metoo
Bullshit that Georgia had investigated the tens of thousands of illegal ballots that were submitted.
Far more than was the margin of the "victory" for Joey Sponge-brain Shits-pants.
Georgia did a full by-hand audit and a recount:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Georgia#Statewide_audit_and_recount
“On November 11, the Secretary of State of Georgia announced there would be a full statewide audit of each of the nearly 5 million ballots by hand, to be completed by November 20, 2020.”
“The Trump campaign had until November 24, 2020, to request a recount of the results. Unlike the statewide audit of each individual ballot by hand, the recount would involve a re-scanning of the voting machines.[50] They filed a petition formally seeking the recount on November 21.[51]
“On December 2, Raffensperger suggested that Biden was likely to win the recount.[52] Biden was later confirmed as the winner of the recount on December 7.”
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/18/facebook-posts/georgia-election-officials-found-more-2600-uncount/
This alone puts lie to your asinine assertion that the phone call “was highly inappropriate”.
It's almost entertaining watching this constant back and forth with Trump. Both sides are to blame. Trump brings almost all of this on himself, and then the left responds in just the most over-board ways in order to get "Orange Hitler."
TDS-addled shit-pile brings the "BOAF SIDZE!"
Stuff your TDS up your ass; your head wants company.
>>Presidents are just people. When they commit crimes, they should be held accountable.
I totally promise to pay money for your 500 page book on O's crimes.
Word.
Trump and Desantis are both terrible choices, they are both self-serving only, and they are both too egotistical to give way to the other guy. Therefore, they will split the vote allowing "weekend at Biden's" to float his corpse through another election win. It's going to be bad all around. Pence might get my "least offensive choice" vote; at least when the chips were down he did his job and didn't buckle to pressure.
at least when the chips were down he did his job and didn’t buckle to pressure
LOL. The job that wasn’t originally his to do, when it became vital for him to do it as central to, uh, insurrection-hero narratives, then it was his to do… until The Constitution said he couldn’t do it and we had to pass a law saying so.
How can two people, only one of whom will emerge from the primary, "split the vote allowing "weekend at Biden's" to float his corpse through another election?
TDS addled shit, it is because of traitor Pence that we have had the disaster that is Joey Sponge-brain Shits-pants falling all over the place.
Oh, so Pence actually could have refused to certify until the contested EC votes had been verified?
Presidents are just people. When they commit crimes, they should be held accountable.
I do not believe that even those Trump supporters who concede that it’s possible that Trump committed crimes think that he should be held accountable.
Your opinion is NWS.
Your side defended the indictment of Rick Perry!
Your side defended Crossfire Hurricane!
Yourside defended Peter Strzok and Kevin Clinesmith!
You must be confusing me with someone else.
It's easy to do; you mimic so much of the TDS-addled shits so closely.
You got that right!
YUou don't even read what you write--
I do not believe that even those Trump supporters who concede that it’s possible that Trump committed crimes think that he should be held accountable
Accountable for what? That it's possibly that he committed crimes?
GIVE US A CRIME.
A REAL crime.
Not a 'Trump did this so it's a crime'. A REAL crime.
If you have to twist the law to argue that someone committed a crime, that demonstrates innocence!
I know what I wrote. There are Trump supporters who will deny that he could have committed any crimes, regardless of evidence and any adverse outcome of subsequent trials. There are some supporters who will concede that, yes, it's possible that he committed crimes, and - this being the implication of what I wrote but you're too stupid to get - if he did commit crimes, then he should still not be held accountable.
And of course it does not matter if he is convicted of election interference in Georgia or the documents case from Mar-a-Lago, you will insist that he is innocent and the convictions are to be explained away as part of a broader witch hunt, and we'll also hear, "but Pence/Biden", etc. etc.
Still, I don't know whether in the case of cultists like yourself, you're pathologically incapable of holding that Trump could be guilty of any crime, or are so averse to granting Trump opponents a win, you have to keep insisting he's innocent.
As far as "Show a crime" is concerned - let's wait to see what if any indictments emerge. Though you'll probably whine then that the grand jury was all Democratic voters, or they're process crimes, which your lot nowadays insist aren't actual crimes, and overall sounding like Jake Blues explaining why he missed his wedding.
Are you even aware that Trump paid out $25 million on the Trump University fraud (civil) case? Or was he being harassed then as well?
"...There are Trump supporters who will deny that he could have committed any crimes, regardless of evidence and any adverse outcome of subsequent trials..."
That is nothing other than an ignorant assertion; NWS.
"..And of course it does not matter if he is convicted of election interference in Georgia or the documents case from Mar-a-Lago, you will insist that he is innocent and the convictions are to be explained away as part of a broader witch hunt, and we’ll also hear, “but Pence/Biden”, etc. etc..."
You are correct here, since neither of the 'crimes' which you claim are 'crimes', so of course he is innocent of those non-crimes.
Further, “but Pence/Biden”, etc. etc..." did indeed do the same or worse, and none of the Trump supporters suggested they be charged with any of it.
This specifically does not include HRC, who did indeed break many laws in keeping and disposing of the private server, and who should be behind bars.
Now, did you have a point, other than making your raging case of TDS obvious to all, TDS-addled shit?
"And of course it does not matter if he is convicted of election interference in Georgia or the documents case from Mar-a-Lago"
What did he do that constituted actual election interference in Georgia? You've heard White Mike's quote, do you think that qualifies?
What if the documents at Mar-a-Lago turn out to be related to Crossfire Hurricane? Those documents were declassified by executive order and the DOJ and FBI are currently in contempt of a court order requiring their release. Both departments refuse and are treating them as classified still. What if he's convicted by a DC jury on documents that are explicitly Crossfire Hurricane related? Will you still support the conviction?
Will you still support the conviction?
No.
Will you support the convictions if they're not?
In light of the shit job that every POTUS has done in regards to supposed classified documents, this shouldn’t even be something we’re talking about. (Leaving aside the idea that the state should be able to keep secrets from the citizens in the first place.)
You know who SHOULD be worried? Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, seeing as how they didn’t have POTUS authority over classification status when they retained documents in an unsecure fashion for fucking years.
I:f they retained classified docs and resisted attempts to get them to return them then definitely they should be charged. I don't think that either of them lied or got their attorneys to lie about whether they had returned all docs.
Was there a court order or something?
There is nothing convincing about the alleged crimes.
Trump should step aside because he has alienated too many of the voters he needs to win.
I want the people pulling these fascist shenanigans arrested, put on trial and incarcerated, and protections put in so that they can never attempt another colour revolution in the US again.
I want journalismers like Boehm to be canned for lying and regurgatating alphabet agency and Democratic Party propaganda as if it were truth. I want to see the whole industry divorced from the parties and government.
I don't care if Trump's president or not, as long as those things happen.
Translation: I don't want Trump convicted of anything even if he's guilty, and the people trying to convict him are guilty of Lèse-majesté, for which they should be locked up.
https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-1/
It was a plain "petition [to] the Government for a redress of grievances"
Because it is protected by the highest law of the land, petitioning Brad Raffensperger to "find 11,780 votes" can not possibly be soliticitation to commit election fraud.
What did Trump mean when he said this to Raffensperger?
“But I mean, all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff. When you talk about no criminality, I think it’s very dangerous for you to say that.”
Sure sounds like a veiled threat. The President of the United States making veiled threats is not "petitioning".
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-brad-raffensperger-phone-call-transcript/index.html
What veiled threat would that be?
I quoted the veiled threat.
"No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful plumage!"
It does not look like a veiled threat to me!
What is this danger that Trump is warning Raffensperger about?
Your side is the one making the allegation, genius.
You tell us.
It was veiled, but Trump could have been threatening anything from lawsuits against the state of Georgia, denouncing Raffensperger in his next election run, siccing the FBI or IRS on him.
It wasn't the only veiled threat in the phone call, either:
"And every single ballot went to Biden, and you didn’t know that, but, now you know it. So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election and it’s not fair to take it away from us like this. And it’s going to be very costly in many ways."
You have failed to quote the threat,
Well, let’s hope Trump gets you on his jury.
"I quoted the veiled threat."
That's your threat!?
How the earth was that a veiled threat?
I don't believe you actually think that question was a threat. I think you're being dishonest with us.
Nooooooo! Really?
It was a plain “petition [to] the Government for a redress of grievances”
I doubt even you are so stupid as to believe that.
I doubt your ability to understand the concept.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
governed with a reckless disregard for the rules and norms that limit presidential power
You know who else...
How did Obama end up in the conversation?
His ego won't allow him to be left out.
I thought he was talking about Biden.
The woes are closing in.
Woah!
They can indict arepas as the saying goes, something like that.
apm247, I like your determination. Bronson Tray and his boy-pal with the buckets of cash were my previous favorite, but you actually got me to google what the fuck an arepas is. Looks a little like a cuban sandwich...
…and the Leftard Nazi’s Witch Hunt continues.
With no end in sight.
The real and true criminal here that needs to be investigated is Joe Biden and his family.
"In a phone call a few days after the election, for example, Trump urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find 11,780 votes"—the number Trump needed to win the state. That seems to be a fairly plain violation of Georgia's law against "criminal solicitation to commit election fraud.""
You're confusing the common media description of what he said, with what he actually said. This is endemic. There's a reason only "find 11,780 votes" was in quotation marks: That's the only part of that he actually said. People accusing him of soliciting fraud are very careful not to put those few words in context.
What he asked for was access to FIND those votes himself, on the assumption that they were actually there to find, if he had access to the records.
And it's only an obvious solicitation of fraud if you mentally insert sneer quotes around "find", and imagine a lot of winking and nodding over the phone. In conventional English, "find" and "fabricate" are different words, with quite different meanings.
He pretends to not be on the side of the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Crodham Clinton).
Everything he writes somehow supports her!