The Hazards of Holding YouTube Liable for Promoting Terrorism
A Supreme Court case illustrates the potential costs of making it easier to sue social media platforms over user-generated content.

Every day, people around the world post about 720,000 hours of new content on YouTube—500 hours of video every minute. That enormous volume of material poses challenges for the platform, which aspires to enforce rules against certain kinds of content, and for its users, who cannot hope to navigate the site without help from YouTube's algorithms, which facilitate searches and recommend videos based on personal viewing patterns.
Those challenges underlie a case that the Supreme Court will hear next month, when it will consider whether Google, which owns YouTube, can be sued for helping the terrorist group ISIS promote its message and attract followers. The case illustrates the hazards of increased civil liability for social media companies, which critics on the right and the left wrongly see as the key to better moderation practices.
Since 1996, federal law has shielded websites from most kinds of civil liability for content posted by users. Under 47 USC 230, "no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
Section 230 also protects "any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected." These two kinds of immunity aim to avoid potentially crippling litigation that would impede the availability of user-generated information and deter content moderation, making the internet as we know it impossible.
In 2021, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit ruled that Section 230 barred a lawsuit against Google by the family of Nohemi Gonzalez, a 23-year-old U.S. citizen who was killed in a 2015 ISIS attack while studying in Paris. The plaintiffs originally argued that Google was liable under the Anti-Terrorism Act for allowing ISIS videos to remain on YouTube and for increasing exposure to them through its "up next" feature, which suggests videos similar to ones users have watched.
On appeal to the Supreme Court, Gonzalez's family concedes that Section 230 means Google, which bans YouTube videos "intended to praise, promote, or aid violent extremist or criminal organizations," cannot be sued for failing to fully enforce that policy. But the plaintiffs argue that the company can be sued for pointing users to such videos when they view similar content, and the Biden administration agrees.
In response, Google notes that "algorithmic tools—from search rankings and content recommendations to email spam-filtering—are indispensable to a functional internet." Google argues that there is no defensible distinction between YouTube's "up next" feature and other algorithms that enable internet users to sort through an "unimaginably vast" amount of material to find relevant and useful information.
If YouTube's "algorithmic tools" expose Google to liability for content it did not create, in other words, every provider of an "interactive computer service" will have to worry about the legal risk of guiding users through a massive morass of material that would otherwise be unmanageable. This is just one facet of a broader problem with making it easier to sue websites over third-party content.
President Joe Biden thinks repealing Section 230 would make it possible to "hold social media platforms accountable for spreading hate and fueling violence." Republican politicians like Sen. Roger Wicker (R‒Miss.), meanwhile, complain that Section 230 allows those platforms to discriminate against conservatives with impunity.
The fact that two sets of critics blame Section 230 for either too little or too much content moderation suggests something is wrong with their reasoning. In reality, the First Amendment protects both "hate speech" and editorial discretion.
Repealing Section 230 would not change that. But the resulting litigation would force platforms, especially those without the resources to battle a flood of lawsuits, to choose between much more heavy-handed content moderation and none at all—a situation that neither Biden nor Wicker would welcome.
© Copyright 2023 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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Again, the problem with section 230 is that tech giants do in fact moderate, but only moderate along political lines
If 230 should exist, it mean speech should not be moderated at all. But once you do start moderating, you should lose that protection.
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
Also this... Could there POSSIBLY be at least a TINY difference between moderating over child porn, v/s moderating over general political issues? Is ANY nuance allowed on your planet?
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"If 230 should exist, it mean speech should not be moderated at all. But once you do start moderating, you should lose that protection."
Think this through. Just say I'm Elon Musk jr. I buy YouTube to make it a free speech absolutist platform. Then someone posts child porn. I have to lose 230 protection to take it down?
To me it sounds like the argument from most commenters is: These platforms are taking the suggestions of the feds to moderate and skew heavily left. (All true) So, we need to remove 230 protection so the feds can tell them what is allowed on their privately owned platform. Isn't this is fighting fire with gasoline?
Censoring illegal content is not the issue. The option to not censor it would already be removed from their list of options. The issue is that they want to be able to censor anything they want AND not be penalized for anything they CHOOSE not to censor.
You do not get both. One or the other only.
OK. So we draw the line at illegal content. That seems fair.
So now if a user decides to post underage children in skimpy clothing (all just barely legal) along with NAMBLA talking points. Leave it up or lose protection?
Or I want a family friendly site. Somebody is posting legal adult porn or gory mangled bodies from violent crimes and accidents. Leave it up or lose protection?
Do you really trust the government to be the judge what to censor and how to do it fairly?
Kudos to Quicktown Brix!!!
Quicktown Brix, please be advised NOT to waste time arguing with Damned-and-Sick! It is a TOTAL waste of time, since Damned-and-Sick is already PERFECT, and will NEVER change its mind about ANYTHING!!!
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
This (above damikesc quote) is a gem of the damnedest dumbness of damikesc! Like MANY “perfect in their own minds” asshole authoritarians around here, he will NEVER take back ANY of the stupidest and most evil things that he has written! I have more of those on file… I deploy them to warn other readers to NOT bother to try and reason with the most utterly unreasonable of the nit-wit twits here!
Because once we start down the road to censorship, there is no turning back. Only moving forward until the tyranny of censorship prevents even the slightest critical comment.
Google pays an hourly wage of $100. My most recent online earnings for a 40-hour work week were $3500. According to my younger brother’s acquaintance, he works roughly 30 hours each vad02 week and earns an average of $12,265. I’m in awe of how simple things once were.
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So publishers can do whatever they want so long as they act as minions for marxist global government...
Fuck you and everybody else who thinks you shouldn't have to face a jury of your peers.
If that option is going to be taken off the table, all others are on it.
"So publishers can do whatever they want"
I would stop right there.
And thanks for the well-wishes.
++++
"Do you really trust the government to be the judge what to censor and how to do it fairly?"
The amount of sheer idiocy and willful blindness required to type this and then post it is astounding.
The idea of rendering unto Caesar the ultimate power to decide what is truth, what is hate speech and what is proper speech violates every tenant of the first Amendment.
Americans have become failures at protecting their own natural rights.
So are you a friend or foe of Section 230?
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
They can feel free to defend their decisions in court.
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer… No matter HOW many times you tell your “Big Lie”, it is NOT true! You’re part of the mob, aren’t you, gangster? For a small fee, you tell small businesses that you will “protect” them… From you and your mob! Refute the below, ye greedy authoritarian who wants to shit all over the concept of private property!
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
Let's all SUE Damned-and-Sick for having married the wrong person, or read the wrong book, and then I am QUITE sure that Damned-and-Sick will say...
"They (Damned-and-Sick) can feel free to defend their decisions in court."
“Isn’t this is fighting fire with gasoline?”
Why yes; Yes it is…
Bipartisan support for ‘government’ ran Media…
It’s quite sickening actually.
GET the GOV away from the PRESS!
No right to moderate means you can't delete spam. Do you really think the comment threads here are enhanced by all the 'make money from home' scam-bots?
No right to moderate means you can't delete (or even tag or move) off-topic content. Do you really think your local beekeeping club's mentoring page is going to be improved by arguments over the Ukraine war or transgender rights?
I agree that politically-biased moderation by tech giants is a generally bad but the solution you propose is far worse than the problem.
From Youtube:
That's from Youtube's mouth. So are they succeeding or failing at this, and if Youtube has told is, clearly, and even said it's partnering with government officials to tackle a problem it admits exists on its platform, then... perhaps these lawsuits might have some merit.
"As we do this, we’re partnering closely with lawmakers and civil society around the globe to limit the spread of violent extremist content online."
This should be enough to instantly lose 230 protection. Time and time again we've seen it abused.
230 desperately needs to be reformed.
Mammary-Fuhrer's power lusts for taking over the properties of OTHER people desperately needs to be reformed. You may NOT cooperate with Government Almighty, even if you WANT to! Because Mammary-Fuhrer has SPOKEN, and told us that ALL of (non-Team-R) Government Almighty is EVIL, through and through!!!
we need a clear set of facts to base our policies on. For example, for COVID-19 medical misinformation policies, we rely on expert consensus from both international health organizations and local health authorities
LOL.
We use clear facts. For example, the [flips open American Heritage Dictionary] "opinion or position reached by a group as a whole" known as consensus.
Repealing Section 230 would not change that. But the resulting litigation would force platforms, especially those without the resources to battle a flood of lawsuits, to choose between much more heavy-handed content moderation and none at all—a situation that neither Biden nor Wicker would welcome.
Fuck Joe Biden. And fuck Roger Wicker, too.
Just out of curiosity, which major social media platforms allowed open discussion of topics related to the Covid pandemic? Would we have been better off with no censoring of such things?
Reason.com did. The fact that Reason.com is not a "major" media platform is because The Market Has Spoken! Also look at recent layoffs at Parler... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/parler-reportedly-axed-most-of-its-staff-after-ending-deal-to-sell-to-kanye-west/
Parler owner laid off 75% of staff and has only 20 employees left, report says
The market speaks! This is consumer freedom, whether we like it, or not! (I, too, wish that consumers would be smarter than they are... AND also, often, FAR less evil!)
Rubbish. In 1950's 55 million newspapers were being published with some having morning, noon and evening editions. They lived under the common sense libel and slander laws that worked perfectly for 200 years, until the idiots on the Supreme Court created a non existent and unconstitutional, public vs private figures class of people, and assigned different standards of proof to each class. A public figure now includes a successful college football coach - since the burden imposed on the coach - actual malice - is nigh impossible to meet, the Court opened pandora's box where anyone can say almost anything about anyone without fear of any consequence. You have to get rid of 230 but also overturn public vs. private figure laws and things will return to normal.
YouTube is 2A unfriendly compared with other content genres. Complaints range from what channels the algorithm will not promote, demonetization of specific videos, and content bans (apparently cannot show loading a standard capacity 30-round AR or AK magazine becoming fully loaded). It is their platform, not mine. They should not receive coercion from government regarding political or social content.
"It is their platform, not mine."
Chumpy Chump has a LOT more basic common-sense respect for private property than MANY greedy, grubby-pawed pussy-grabbers around here!
If the 1st Amendment protects editorial discretion from legal liability, then Section 230 was a redundancy. The default legal situation prior to 230 was that any moderation incurred liability on the platform for the content that was allowed to remain. The intent of Section 230 was to protect minimal moderation policies, i.e. censoring outright illegal content (like terrorism) without incurring liability for the content that remains, not to protect heavy handed moderation from liability.
Sullum is making a claim that is belied by the history behind what brought Section 230 into existence.
"...not to protect heavy handed moderation from liability."
In my lifetime, I have sent MANY letters to the editors (AND guest editorials) to the local rag, and almost all of them have been heavily moderated (not published). Local churches and mosques (etc.) around here ALSO moderate the SHIT out of me, when I want to take over their podiums! Just HOW severely should all of these folks be punished?
Why not add an S-230 for hardcopy rags, instead? Why not SPREAD freedom and property rights, instead of constricting it some more, for once?
Yeah. You are not understanding the point being made, either from being deliberately obtuse or otherwise.
The default assumption before 230 was that any moderation incurred liability for the content that remained. There was no idea in the legal system that the 1st Amendment was proof against incurring such liability. This is a clear case of the exception proving the rule. And, by the way, a newspaper is liable for the content it publishes, they do not get 230 liability protection for their on dead tree publications.
"Why not add an S-230 for hardcopy rags, instead?", I ask, instead of adding more laws constricting freedom of expression, and property rights. CLEARLY an honest and diligent reader who reads my words, would KNOW that hardcopy rags do NOT have an S-230, and that I know that, too!
"And, by the way, a newspaper is liable for the content it publishes, they do not get 230 liability protection for their on dead tree publications." ... Mickey Rat, "educating" me.
But then I am the one who is NOT understanding!!!
"You are not understanding the point being made..."
I understand the point being made quite well, thank you! The point being made is that authoritarians want to GROW Government-Almighty-generated injustices, by spreading them, not by nipping them in the bud!
Your “fix” to all of this is to punish “publishers” (web sites) for the content generated by OTHER people? Those who post?
SOME people here have argued that, since there has been at least one (several?) case(s) of hardcopy rags (newspapers) sued FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS, namely letter-to-the-editor writers (it was all well and good to authoritarians that SOME people got punished for the writings of OTHER people), then the proper fix MUST be to perpetrate / perpetuate this obvious injustice right on over to the internet domain!
This is like arguing that the “fix” for a cop strangling to death, a black man (Eric Garner) on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies” is, not to STOP the injustice, but rather, to go and find some White and Hispanic and Asian men as well, and strangle them, as well, on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies”! THAT will make it all “fair”!
NY Times (NYT) can be punished for what someone ELSE wrote in a letter-to-the-editor in their hardcopy rag! An injustice, to be “fixed” by punishing Facebook for the same kind of offenses! Hey: Tear down Section 230 to “fix” this? Or REALLY fix it by adding a “Section 230 for hardcopy rags”?
In 1850, I imagine that perhaps some people in the USA were saying it isn’t fair that white folks hold black folks as slaves. Let’s “fix” it by having a bunch of black folks hold white slaves, too!
What kind of EVIL person fixes injustice by widening the spread of more injustice of the same kind? HOW does this “fix” ANYTHING?!?!
I am stating what the legal understanding of liability for social media platforms was which led to Section 230 being created. I am not necessarily saying that it was good or bad , just that it was the legal standard. If it was not, then there was no need for 230.
So Rolling Stone should not have been held liable for publishing a libelous article against the University of Virginia for allegedly covering up a rape which turned out to be a hoax largely manufactured by the RS reporter with an agenda?
Squirrel needs his government coercion where any opposition turns into schizophrenic, copy pasta, heckler’s veto accusations of marxism.
"...manufactured by the RS reporter with an agenda..."
RS reporter working for the hardcopy rag! Hardcopy rag is responsible! Now do a letter to the editor or a guest editorial, with the usual disclaimer, "This is the opinion of the editorial writer and not of the hardcopy rag"! If Joe Biden commits libel or slander in a guest editorial THAT BIDEN WROTE, WHO should be sued, Joe Biden, or the hardcopy rag? Come ON, man, WHERE is your common sense? Allowing suing of the hardcopy rag here is simply allowing greedy lawyers to go after the "deep pockets"!
I can't believe I am saying this.
I agree.
The people working at Charlie Hebdo discovered the hard way what publishing certain materials can mean to certain people. Their ideas of free speech means nothing compared to religious extremists.
Yikes! Were these letters you wrote anything like your rambling comments here? That would explain why they weren't published.
A 'common sense' regulation would be to require a platform to file a criminal complaint for each item degraded, banned, or affected in any way.
If they are truly a platform, they should only be removing illegal content. Once they start picking legal content, dare I say especially true content, they are bigots discriminating against some of those who submit content.
Nice editorial.
Of course, if it were a news article, it would start with the FACT that Google is NOT being sued for the content of a poster.
Google is being sued for GOOGLE promoting terrorism, via algorithms GOOGLE created that pushed violence.
Algorithms are evil black magic? They are merely systematic methods!!! If a hardcopy rag uses reader surveys to decide what is front-page news, and what is page-32 news ("what is it that the readers want to read"), then that, too, is an "algorithm"!!! OoooOOoooo, SCARY!!!!
WHEN is the last time that an algorithm MADE you commit violence, and HOW did the algorithm DO that, pray tell?
especially those without the resources to battle a flood of lawsuits
So are we deciding these supposed lawsuits are entirely meritless up front universally and in perpetuity? That Google could never infringe on its customers or users or contractors or anyone else’s free speech or other rights? Weird that a globe-spanning business can achieve what even Christ himself couldn’t, to say nothing of a normal carpenter or baker.
Or are we acknowledging that they have merit, but should just be ignored because people don’t have a right to petition their government for redress of grievances and Google should be, for some reason, actively protected from a flood of meritorious litigation?
Or is it somewhere in between?
Edit: Above not meant in reply.
Social media will have the rights of the NY Times and the legal protection of T-Mobile as long as they play ball with the state. That is the essence of Free Minds and Free Markets.
So elect The Donald, and He will fix it ALL, right?
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/28/863932758/stung-by-twitter-trump-signs-executive-order-to-weaken-social-media-companies
Stung By Twitter, Trump Signs Executive Order To Weaken Social Media Companies
In this case one only needs to refuse to play ball with the state.
James O'keefe, Steve Bannon, Jeff Rense, Julian Assange, Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, to name only a few who are raising their middle finger to the state.
Sullum has his Big Tech Servicing Kneepads on again.
If little businesses can either be driven under or bake the fucking cake then why not the behemoths?
Yeah, if Government Almighty can punish ("tax") 33% of your money, let's punish 99% of your money, so that ALL of your money can share the pain!
Let's time-travel back to 1850, and "fix" slavery by having black people hold white people as slaves, too!
Whoa, I sense that evil power pigs like to "fix" things by SPREADING rather than REDUCING pain, suffering, and injustice!
Since the revelations of the FBI's involvement with Twitter, one has to come to the rightful conclusion that Twitter isn't the only platform affected and they would be correct. The entire main stream media is nothing more than a stenographer for the CIA, FBI, White House and every other government agency, hence the wars in the middle east, the debacle of Ukraine, countless coups, and the secret operations conducted that only a very few know about.
The First Amendment was the guarantee that government is not to interfere with any person's right to speak their mind no matter how ugly, profane of hateful. No matter how much disdain is shown for the government, or for those who serve it.
If that guarantee is broken, then it needs to be put to rights. Unfortunately, there are a great many who look upon the First Amendment as akin to hate speech and needs silencing.
All authoritarian movements begin with censoring free speech. Every single one.
So then THIS is why Government Almighty regulators must take over moderation at Parler?
Parler censors liberals, techdirt... https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/
If a tree falls in the forest and lands on a squirrel, does anyone give a shit?
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