The January 6 Committee's Suggested Charges Against Trump May Be Hard To Prove
The leading possibilities include knowledge and intent elements that have to be established beyond a reasonable doubt.

The select congressional committee investigating the January 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol on Monday recommended that the Justice Department consider half a dozen criminal charges against Donald Trump based on his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. While those criminal referrals are not binding, they suggest some of the challenges that prosecutors would face if they decided there is enough evidence to charge the former president.
Four of the potential crimes include mens rea requirements that may be difficult to satisfy, especially since the prosecution would have to prove those elements beyond a reasonable doubt. The other two possibilities involve conspiracies that the committee was unable to substantiate, although it suggests that the Justice Department might have more success.
The committee argues that Trump violated 18 USC 1512(c) when he summoned his supporters to a "Stop the Steal" rally in Washington, D.C., on the day that Congress was meeting to certify Joe Biden's victory, then riled them up with a fiery speech and pointed them toward the Capitol. The statute makes it a felony, punishable by up to 20 years in prison, to "corruptly" obstruct an "official proceeding."
That law has figured prominently in the criminal cases against Trump supporters who disrupted the electoral vote count by trespassing on Capitol grounds, illegally entering and vandalizing the building, and/or assaulting police officers. But to make the charge stick against Trump, prosecutors would have to prove that he acted "corruptly," which federal appeals courts have defined as acting "with an improper purpose and to engage in conduct knowingly and dishonestly with the specific intent to subvert, impede or obstruct" an official proceeding.
According to an analysis by the Rollins and Chan Law Firm, which represents criminal defendants in D.C. and Maryland, that element is "easy to prove" when a defendant "broke into the Capitol, broke windows, destroyed property, went into offices, or went into the chamber." But it is harder to prove when a defendant, like Trump, is accused of playing an indirect role in the riot.
Trump, who urged the audience at his rally to "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard today" by "marching over to the Capitol building," insists that he did not intend to cause a riot. And while his "fight like hell" rhetoric in that context was undeniably reckless, it is plausible, given what we know about Trump, that he was so narrowly focused on promoting his own cause that he did not consider the likely impact of his words. Heedless self-absorption is not the same as acting "knowingly and dishonestly with the specific intent" to interrupt the ratification of the election results.
The committee's allegations go beyond what Trump did at the rally. "President Trump was attempting to prevent or delay the counting of lawful certified Electoral College votes from multiple States," it says. "President Trump was directly and personally involved in this effort, personally pressuring Vice President Pence relentlessly as the Joint Session on January 6th approached." Trump wanted Pence to unilaterally reject electoral votes for Biden from several states, which the vice president refused to do after concluding that he had no such authority.
As evidence that Trump acted "corruptly" when he pressured Pence, the committee notes that Pence, his chief counsel, and others "repeatedly told the President that the Vice President had no unilateral authority to prevent certification of the election." It cites a January 6 email exchange in which Trump legal adviser John Eastman "admitted that President Trump had been 'advised' that Vice President Pence could not lawfully refuse to count votes under the Electoral Count Act." Eastman—who was instrumental in formulating that plan, which he argued was constitutional even though it was contrary to statute—added that "once he gets something in his head, it's hard to get him to change course."
That assessment is ambiguous: Did Trump proceed with his cockamamie scheme even though he knew it was illegal, or did he reject advice to that effect because it was inconvenient? The latter would be completely in character.
During the battle over the committee's access to Eastman's emails, the panel notes, U.S. District Judge David Carter concluded that Trump "likely violated" 18 USC 1512(c). Trump "likely knew the electoral count plan had no factual justification," he wrote. "The plan not only lacked factual basis but also legal justification." Because Trump "likely knew that the plan to disrupt the electoral count was wrongful," Carter said, "his mindset exceeds the threshold for acting 'corruptly.'"
Maybe, but that assumes Trump knew his wild fraud allegations were false, a point that remains unclear to this day, and understood the law well enough to deliberately defy it. Both of those propositions are debatable, and the "preponderance of the evidence" standard that Carter applied is much less demanding than the proof required for a criminal conviction.
The committee's argument that Trump violated 18 USC 371 raises similar issues. That statute makes it a felony, punishable by up to five years in prison, to conspire with at least one other person to "defraud the United States," provided that scheme includes "any act to effect the object of the conspiracy." As relevant here, the prosecution has to prove that the conspiracy involved "interference or obstruction of a lawful governmental function 'by deceit, craft or treachery or at least by means that are dishonest.'"
If you assume that Trump never sincerely believed the election was stolen, his efforts to change the outcome, including his "alternate electors" scheme, were plainly dishonest. But if you think it is plausible that Trump drank his own Kool-Aid, the picture is murkier. Maybe he was pressing claims he thought were legitimate, despite all the contrary evidence.
"President Trump repeatedly lied about the election, after he had been told by his advisors that there was no evidence of fraud sufficient to change the results of the election," the committee says. But a lie requires deliberate deceit, and a jury might reasonably conclude that Trump's narcissism blinded him to the truth. More to the point, it might conclude there is reasonable doubt as to whether Trump knew his self-serving fantasy was nothing more than that. Judge Carter, who thought it more likely than not that Trump and Eastman had conspired to defraud the United States, did not really grapple with the possibility that Trump deceived himself.
The committee also alleges that Trump violated 18 USC 1001, which covers "any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation" to the government. The panel says Trump committed that felony, which is punishable by up to five years in prison, when he encouraged others to submit "slates of fake electors" to Congress and the National Archives. To convict Trump of that crime, the prosecution would have to show that he acted "knowingly and willfully," meaning he understood that the slates were fraudulent.
As evidence of that, the committee notes that Trump "relied on the existence of those fake electors as a basis for asserting that the Vice President could reject or delay certification of the Biden electors." But it is still possible that Trump thought both of those maneuvers were legitimate, based on the advice of the lawyers he favored because they said what he wanted to hear.
The committee also suggests that Trump's January 6 speech amounted to incitement of insurrection, a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison under 18 USC 2383. It argues that his comments were not protected by the First Amendment because they were likely to inspire violence. But the Supreme Court has held that even someone who explicitly advocates criminal behavior (which Trump did not do) is constitutionally protected from prosecution unless his speech is not only "likely" to incite "imminent lawless action" but also "directed" at that outcome. Again, that makes Trump's intent crucial: Did he deliberately encourage violence, or did he blithely disregard that danger?
Finally, the committee suggests that Trump could be guilty of seditious conspiracy, a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison. As relevant here, that statute, 18 USC 2384, applies to anyone who conspires to "prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of" a federal law (in this case, the Electoral Count Act) "by force." Members of the Oath Keepers militia who participated in the Capitol riot have been convicted of that crime, and members of the Proud Boys face similar charges. The committee concedes that it was unable to substantiate any connection between Trump and those plots but hopes the Justice Department can do better.
The committee also mentions 18 USC 372, which covers conspiracies "to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in the discharge of his official duties." That felony, which is punishable by up to six years in prison, likewise requires evidence that the committee thinks the Justice Department might be able to uncover, assuming it exists.
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The January 6 Committee's Suggested Charges Against Trump May Be Hard To Prove
Partisan lies can never be proven. Though I wouldn't doubt a corrupt 100% Democratic jury in DC wouldn't convict Trump anyway. There should be no political trials in DC.
We have seen that with the Sussman trial, where at least two jurors were tainted, one a Clinton campaign staffer, and one a parent of Sussman's child's schoolmate.
No Democrat will ever be convicted there, no Republican will ever be found not guilty in a political trial, with 96% Democrat voting residents. All political trials in the DC area should have a change of venue, but then corrupt judges will never allow that either.
It was never about truth or facts you leftist propagandist. It was about getting drooling leftists like you to set a narrative based on lies so you can all ignore reporting on it when it falls apart.
This really is the whole point.
Why is this article about whether or not anything can be proven, rather than an article about what the fuck congress is doing trying to "investigate" a "crime" here?
Congress' only investigative power is supposed to be about legislation. Using a legislative body's subpoena power to get around constitutional protections requiring law enforcement to get a warrant is a good article topic. A star chamber television production all summer leading up to an election is a good topic for an article, too. The ridiculous, nearly two year long, committee gathering evidence that a competent, and appropriate, criminal investigative agency could have gathered and decided upon by last summer being a remarkable waste of resources is a good topic for an article.
Trumped up suggestions for charges being hard to prove, not so much. Even responding tepidly like this gives this congressional kangaroo court too much credit.
Once you support a coup attempt on the duly elected president, because you think he’s a poopy head, it’s hard to change directions on the topic.
Remember, the day after the election Clinton's advisers left the hotel at 8:30 am. You know, after she refused to make her consession speech... and one of them turned to the waiting press and said "Dont worry, we are going to impeach him"
You thought we were starting to slide toward a banana republic at one of the recent inflection points..... little did you know, we were already there a half dozen years ago.
Yeah, well she made a concession speech, so non of that other stuff matters.
— Mike Liarson
Phew... I was waiting for this shoe to drop.
It dropped surprisingly quietly. It's one of the least-addled articled on Trump by Sullum. Reading this with no knowledge of his years of TDS-riddled rants, it would be hard to recognize how much he despises Trump's mean tweets.
Is he transitioning to it is old news?
I honestly don't understand it. Closest I can imagine is this was such a great relief that it took all the fire out of his TDS.
Walls, they gently slide into place like a Japanese shoji.
Or a Chinese puzzle box.
Finally, the committee suggests that Trump could be guilty of seditious conspiracy, a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison. As relevant here, that statute, 18 USC 2384, applies to anyone who conspires to "prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of" a federal law (in this case, the Electoral Count Act) "by force." Members of the Oath Keepers militia who participated in the Capitol riot have been convicted of that crime, and members of the Proud Boys face similar charges. The committee concedes that it was unable to substantiate any connection between Trump and those plots but hopes the Justice Department can do better.
If the *checks internet* mainstream libertarian publication isn't even slightly concerned with the 3rd world Junta-ness of all of this, then we're done here.
Bye
But where do we go? These assholes have fucked up the entire western world, and the rest of the world, ehhhh, mostly kinda sketchy
"The January 6 Committee's Suggested Charges Against Trump May Be Hard To Prove"
That makes sense under the assumption that Democrats actually don't want Trump to go to prison because they're hoping he'll be the 2024 nominee.
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The January 6 Committee's Suggested Charges Against Trump May Be Hard To Prove
The defense will actually be able to enter evidence and cross examine witnesses, so yeah.
Sullum needs to be turned into a lamppost ornament, along with many others
Is your real name Vlad Dracul?
His REAL name is Son of Scam-Gram-I-Am!!!!
You think Nardz is Colonel Dracula?
The committee argues that Trump violated 18 USC 1512(c) when he summoned his supporters to a "Stop the Steal" rally in Washington, D.C., on the day that Congress was meeting to certify Joe Biden's victory, then riled them up with a fiery speech and pointed them toward the Capitol.
All of which is absolutely legal. Protests are legal.
Trump, who urged the audience at his rally to "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard today" by "marching over to the Capitol building," insists that he did not intend to cause a riot. And while his "fight like hell" rhetoric in that context was undeniably reckless, it is plausible, given what we know about Trump, that he was so narrowly focused on promoting his own cause that he did not consider the likely impact of his words.
Undeniably reckless? Words have meanings. Fighting in a political sense simply means making your voice heard. When you urge your football team to "Fight fight fight!" you're not encouraging them to throw punches. Reckless disregard is a penalty but the colloquial usage of the term "fight" as a political rallying cry is as old as politics. It's hard to call it reckless when it's utterly commonplace. That's like saying it's reckless simply to drive a car because automobile accidents are quite common; the word just has no meaning at that point.
The committee also suggests that Trump's January 6 speech amounted to incitement of insurrection, a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison under 18 USC 2383.
This is the most ridiculous charge possible and it undermines the rule of law to even push this charge. This is there because the committee really dislikes Trump, not because it has any validity. It's an injustice aimed directly at the millions of people who voted for Trump by people in power.
Meanwhile, several members of the same committee urged people to take to the streets for a year... during lockdowns... and threatened dire consequences should anyone attempt to enforce rule of law. Remember how they reacted to the arson of a church across the street?
Remember how the city of DC used taxpayer funds to paint political messages on the street in front of the white house? Congress has oversight over the district. Did they do anything about this blatant violation of both federal law and city ordinance? Or did they put on a kente cloth and subjugate themselves to the mob?
https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1605292454261182464?t=13WiPa_pQQxie22yxu2SVQ&s=19
1. TWITTER FILES PART 8
*How Twitter Quietly Aided the Pentagon’s Covert Online PsyOp Campaign*
Despite promises to shut down covert state-run propaganda networks, Twitter docs show that the social media giant directly assisted the U.S. military’s influence operations.
[Thread]
Old news. Amnesty. No smoking gun Twitter wanted to collude so its fine.
Anyone with a brain should look at the last three years and realize that the democrat party, and collaborators like Liz Cheney, are an existential threat to every American.
What Sullum illustrates here, probably unintentionally, is that in every instance Trump was seeking to delay the certification by LEGAL means of an election that he and half the country suspected was illegitimate. Even the Pence thing, which I found far fetched at the time, is based on a legal theory. The world we inhabit is ruled by legal theories many of which are absurd. The claim that Trump is guilty of some criminal act is the same hyperbolic PR propaganda this kangaroo court has been selling since it's inception. I've already wasted too much time considering it.
To the democrats, and their minions like Sullum. Criminality is irrelevant. Trump is not obeying the narrative. That’s all that matters. Things like laws, are weapons that only count when they are useful to the democrats. Otherwise, laws mean nothing to them.
They are the enemy within. The discussion at this point should be how best to destroy them.
When are you guys going to follow the example of the Niskanen Center and just admit you aren’t libertarians? You can’t flirt with the idea that urging protest is insurrection or “irresponsibly disregarding the danger” to the government and still call yourself a libertarian. Reread that article and replace any reference to Donald Trump with an anti-war protester in 2005. Tell me how the hell that reads to you.
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
We’ll be able to fly
Baby, I’m your man
La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
Letting your inner Nutzi out there, Sqrlsy?
Fuck off and die, spastic asshole.
It depends on whether they identify more with effective authoritarians like China, or with historically pro-freedom radicals like the USA. It's not that hard to tell.
Pretty sure Trump has a VERY well established HARASSMENT CHARGE at his whim... This Nazi witch-hunting is getting old. Trump has been right about just about everything. And now the Nazi-Freaks are trying to hang him for something he wasn't even within MILES of let along pretending the protest was any sort of crime to begin with in light of BURNING CITIES to the GROUND and TAKING OVER SEATTLE Private-Property by GUN-POINT.
The only thing getting proved here is just how SCARY his De-Regulation Committee and pursuit of Authentic Elections are to treasonous Nazi's in US politics.
https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1605332567846174727?t=zsIFtyLjtMx3T4pkmaeXxg&s=19
Under Marxism, the "Science" is actually alchemy and mysticism. It's a religious cult that does not seek to explain nature but to change it. The goal is to actualize their vision of the world, to make it conform to what they imagine it was always intended to be.
[Link]
You're being unfair to alchemy - which was actually an organized proto-science.
Alchemy has always been this weird field halfway be tween nonsense like astrology or reading entrails, and real science like chemistry and physics. It doesn't get as much respect as it deserves.
Marxists have no right to exist.
Given Bush knew there was no WMD in Iraq and launched a war (undeclared..please don't give me the bs about a "resolution") which killed at least a million people and is walking free? Trump is not coming back Reason and DC..you can continue to run an empire on printed fed dollars
Even the Russians had his back on the WMD issue.
https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1605361389148966912?t=4Lliwib92Rq5zU30x_1HJQ&s=19
They want you to stop calling yourself an American so they can push for their Neo-Communist WEF globalist government. That's why they're mainstreaming the bogus and loaded term "global citizenship," especially in education.
[Link]
Neo-fascist, not neo-Communist.
Same-same.
I'm partial to the term "postmodern nazism" because it captures the ethnic hate mongering element, but "neo communism" is synonymous
They stack about the same in a landfill either way.
https://twitter.com/AmandaMilius/status/1605314071862988800?t=jh7iC6DWp6mbWW1Ru5ckRg&s=19
While they tear down our historic monuments they build new ones to honor their largest grifts. Unreal.
[Link]
The devout need temples and the priesthood need offerings, particularly gold offerings.
"The January 6 Committee's Suggested Charges Against Trump May Be Hard To Prove"
"Go home in love and peace and remember this day forever" isn't the most incendiary phrase to claim as fomenting insurrection, but the J6 Deep State Revolutionary Committee did its best.
What's with all this hand-wringing and pearl-clutching about "confirmation bias", and other pointy-headed silly things, when...
The Bider-Grunch has stolen Trumpsmas!!! Get a grip, people, and focus on the BIGLY problems around here!!! Man the battle stations, full speed ahead, and DAMN the Lizard People AND their mind-controlled vote thieves!!!
How the Bider-Grunch Stole Trumpsmas
‘Twas the night before Trumpsmas,
And all through the lands,
Patriotic feelings were stirring our glands!
The voters ALL firmly fixed to vote RED!
Vote BLUE?!? They’d rather be dead!
Visions of Eternal Redness danced in their heads!
The Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpin-Father would soon be there!
All one-party Republican states would soon be square!
While every You Down in Youville Liked Trumpsmas a lot...
But the Bider-Grunch, who lived just north of Youville, Did NOT!
The Bider-Grunch hated Trumpsmas! The whole Trumpsmas season!
Now, please don't ask why. No one quite knows the reason.
It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all,
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.
Whatever the reason, His heart or his shoes,
He stood there on Trumpsmas Eve, hating the Yous,
Staring down from his cave with a sour, Grunchy frown,
At the warm lighted windows below in their town.
For he knew every You would vote Trump,
THIS, bigly, made the Grunch a real grump!.
"And they're preparing ballots!" he snarled with a sneer,
"Tomorrow is Trumpsmas! It's practically here!"
Then he growled, with his Grunch fingers nervously drumming,
"I MUST find some way to stop Trumpsmas from coming!"
For Tomorrow, he knew, all the You girls and boys,
Would wake bright and early. They'd rush for their toys!
And then! Oh, the noise! Oh, the Noise!
Noise! Noise! Noise!
That's one thing he hated! The NOISE!
NOISE! NOISE! NOISE!
Then the Yous, young and old, would sit down to a feast.
And they'd feast! And they'd feast! And they'd FEAST!
FEAST! FEAST! FEAST!
They would feast on You-pudding, and rare You-roast beast.
Which was something the Bider-Grunch couldn't stand in the least!
And THEN They'd do something He liked least of all!
Every You down in Youville, the tall and the small,
Would stand close together, with Trumpsmas bells ringing.
They'd stand hand-in-hand. And the Yous would start singing!
They'd sing! And they'd sing! And they'd SING!
SING! SING! SING!
And the more the Grunch thought of this You TrumpsmasSing,
The more the Grunch thought, "I must stop this whole thing!"
"Why, for four years I've put up with it now!"
"I MUST stop this Trumpsmas from coming! But HOW?"
Then he got an idea! An awful idea!
THE GRUNCH GOT A WONDERFUL, AWFUL IDEA!
"I know just what to do!" The Bider-Grunch laughed in his throat.
And he made a quick MAGA hat and a coat.
And he chuckled, and clucked, "What a great Grunchy trick!"
"With this coat and this hat, I look just like Saint Prick!"
"All I need is a Proud Boy..." The Bider-Grunch looked around.
But, since Proud Boys are scarce, there was none to be found.
Did that stop the old Grunch? No! The Grunch simply said,
"If I can't find a Proud Boy, I'll make one instead!"
So he called his cat, Chairman Meow. Then he took some red thread,
And he tied a big MAGA hat on the top of his head.
Then he loaded many bags and sacks, made ‘em all fit somehow,
On a ramshackle sleigh, and he hitched up Chairman Meow..
Then the Grunch said, "Giddap!" And the sleigh started down,
Toward the homes where the Whos Lay asnooze in their town.
All their windows were dark. Quiet snow filled the air.
All the Whos were all dreaming sweet dreams without care.
When he came to the first little house on the square.
"This is stop number one," the Grunchy fake-Trump hissed,
And he climbed to the roof, empty bags in his fist.
Then he slid down the chimney. To his fat gut, a punch.
But, if Trump could do it, then so could the Grunch.
He got stuck only once, for a moment or two.
Then he stuck his head out of the fireplace flue.
Where the little You ballots all hung in a row.
"These ballots," he grinned, "are the first things to go!"
Then he slithered and slunk, with a smile most unpleasant,
Around the whole room, and he took every vote!
This, surely, would get the You’s goat!
And he stuffed them in bags. Then the Grunch, very nimbly,
Stuffed all the bags, one by one, up the chimney!
Then he slunk to the icebox. He took the Yous' feast!
He took the You-pudding! He took the roast beast!
He cleaned out that icebox as quick as a flash.
Why, that Grunch even took their last can of You-hash!
Then he stuffed all the food up the chimney with glee.
"And NOW!" grinned the Bider-Grunch, "I will stuff up the tree!"
And the Bider-Grunch grabbed the tree, and he started to shove,
When he heard a small sound like the coo of a dove.
He turned around fast, and he saw a small You!
Little Cindy-Lou You, who was not more than two.
The Grunch had been caught by this tiny You daughter,
Who'd got out of bed for a cup of cold water.
She stared at the Grunch and said, "Lord Trump, why,”
"Why are you taking our Trumpsmas tree? WHY?"
But, you know, that old Grunch was so smart and so slick,
He thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick!
"Why, my sweet little tot," the fake Lord Trump lied,
"There's a light on this tree that won't light on one side."
"So I'm taking it home to my workshop, my dear."
"I'll fix it up there. Then I'll bring it back here."
And his fib fooled the child. Then he patted her head,
And he got her a drink and he sent her to bed.
And when CindyLou You went to bed with her cup,
He went to the chimney and stuffed the tree up!
Then the last thing he took Was the log for their fire!
Then he went up the chimney, himself, the old liar.
On their walls he left nothing but hooks and some wire.
And the one speck of food That he left in the house,
Was a crumb that was even too small for a mouse.
Then He did the same thing To the other Yous' houses
Leaving crumbs much too small For the other Yous' mouses!
It was quarter past dawn... All the Yous, still a-bed,
All the Yous, still asnooze When he packed up his sled,
Packed it up with all of their ballots… ALL of their votes!
THIS, the fake Lord Trump grumped, will get ALL of their goats!
Three thousand feet up! Up the side of Mt. Crumpit,
He rode with his load to the tiptop to dump it!
"Pooh-Pooh to the Yous!" he was Grunchishly humming.
"They're finding out now that no Trumpsmas is coming!"
"They're just waking up! I know just what they'll do!"
"Their mouths will hang open a minute or two,
Then the Yous down in Youville will all cry Boo-Hoo!"
"That's a noise," grinned the Bider-Grunch, "That I simply MUST hear!"
So he paused. And the Bider-Grunch put his hand to his ear.
And he did hear a sound rising over the snow.
It started in low. Then it started to grow.
But the sound wasn't sad! Why, this sound sounded merry!
It couldn't be so! But it WAS merry! VERY!
He stared down at Youville! The Grunch popped his eyes!
Then he shook! What he saw was a shocking surprise!
Every You down in Youville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any Trump-votes at all!
He HADN'T stopped Trumpsmas from coming! IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!
And the Grunch, with his Grunch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?"
The Grunch-light came on! “Yes! Now I know!
The Yous down in Youville, they’re really quite slow!
Their election’s been stolen, but the whole Trumpsmas glow,
Overwhelms EVERYTHING, even democracy!
They’ll lie bigly, and impose mobocracy!”
So the Bider-Grunch whipped out his cell phone,
Called the Lizard People, who send out a drone,
Mind-controlled them ALL, as is Lizard habit,
Now NO ONE could save them, not even Saint Babbitt!
So THAT’s the Sad Story of the bad Bider-Grunch,
Who stole Trumpsmas, the elections, AND your lunch!
You got way too much spare time.
Back on mute goes the shit eater. Bad shit eater, bad.
Can’t SQRLSY’s owners take him to the vet nd have him put down?
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Sperry: How The FBI Copied Parts Of The Debunked Steele Dossier Directly Into Its Spy Requests
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sperry-how-fbi-copied-parts-debunked-steele-dossier-directly-its-spy-requests
In some cases, the FBI mixed partial information from one dossier report with partial information from another report to draw broader conclusions. It then used these as a foundation to claim evidence of a grand election “conspiracy” between the Trump campaign and Russia, with Page acting as an “intermediary.” Such a conspiracy was what counterintelligence agents needed to convince the FISA court that their main target Page was a Kremlin agent who posed a national security threat, and that deploying the government’s most intrusive investigative method – electronic surveillance – was necessary to investigate him.
In short, the FBI fabricated conclusions from fabrications and turned them into sworn representations before the powerful Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
Veteran FBI investigators who have worked counterintelligence cases and sworn out wiretap warrants say the agents who ran the Russiagate investigation, codenamed Crossfire Hurricane, violated the fundamental principle requiring them to independently verify evidence they present to the court.
“Their actions – lying and misrepresentations on warrants and affidavits – are antithetical to every instruction at FBI training at Quantico and in the field,” said 27-year FBI veteran Michael Biasello. “Any FBI Academy trainee and agent in the field is aware that search warrants, affidavits and any accompanying documents and information contained therein requiring federal judicial approval is to be vetted and verified to create a pristine document. Their accuracy is vital.”
The FBI declined comment.
one dossier report
A fabrication is not a report.
-jcr
After telling courts for months they needed Trumps tax returns for legislative purposes and not to release them to the public, Democrats vote to release tax returns to the public. They literally lied to the courts.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-house-taxwriting-committee-vote-release-trumps-tax-information
And you’re surprised?
I look forward to the sternly written letter from the court asking them not to do it to many more times.
We've also seen that they don't really have to prove anything. They just need to charge him in DC and draw a politically motivated jury.
All the better to start a civil war—liberal Black jurors voting to send Trump to prison. Make lots of popcorn.
he had been told by his advisors that there was no evidence of fraud sufficient to change the results of the election," the committee says. ...a jury might reasonably conclude that Trump's narcissism blinded him to the truth.
Or, one might reasonably conclude that the evidence of election irregularities IS sufficient to cast doubt on the results.
C'mon Sullum. C'mon man. After all this, after all you promised, you're telling me the wallz aren't clozin in?
THE WALLZ ARE NOT CLOZIN' IN!
Meanwhile, under the heading of election interference.....
Remember how the US entered a recession last spring? Remember how the white house said no, and changed the definition of recession? Remember how the press all agreed that this was indeed the definition of recession... in fact, this is the only definition real academics have ever used? (That lockstep sure looks different after you read the Twitter files, doesn't it?)
A big part of that claim was a jobs report that said the US added a million jobs in the second quarter. A million. So no way is there a recession.
Every news outlet repeated that proudly. Uncritically.
Several people here in the comments said, "I will bet you they revise that down after the election"
Well. It is after the election. Do we have to eat crow?
Nope.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics revised their pre-election number down from 1 million...... to ten thousand.
Ten. Thousand.
Not a million.
Ten thousand.
Anyone here not on the payroll of a DNC propaganda machine believe that 2 orders of magnitude is an honest mistake?
Two orders of magnitude. That is really hard to do. Really hard.
https://twitter.com/RepDanBishop/status/1605253710753501186?t=LTHKgC0rVdQoj4x9yyODUA&s=19
My team and I are reading through the omnibus bill today - all $1.7 trillion and 4,155 pages of it.
Follow along for some of the most egregious provisions in the bill
[Thread]
Wow.... first item up... it prohibits using funds to improve border security. Only for improved processing.
Meanwhile..... $410 million towards border security for Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, and Oman.
So, what happens if congress shuts down those 80 fbi agents who supervise Twitter? Yeah, I know, they got 36 million in the request....
But....
https://twitter.com/RepDanBishop/status/1605288673079185410?
$524.4 million for a DEI and "structural racism" focused NIH subdivision
Half a billion to attack structural racism over at NIH.
Half a billion.
Any possibility that a chunk of that half billion gets used to plant false news stories that support the narrative? Any further possibility that they might use this to create a task force that fights misinformation?
If China or Russia were charging the leading opposition candidate with a series of bogus crimes, deplatforming him, releasing his personal financial records, and attempting to disqualify him from running again via impeachment, would people be calling it "defending democracy", or would it be considered a tyrannical crackdown on free and fair elections?
For those who wanted to believe the ENB story that labeled everyone in twittergate good people acting in good faith doing the best they can.... Glenn Greenwald is here to disabuse you of that delusion.
He discusses the laptop story with a NY Post reporter who was there.... and who was spied on by the FBI before the story broke.
https://youtu.be/0O66cR2BIgU
They knew it was true. They knew it would hurt Biden. And they organized a huge disinformation campaign to block the American people from seeing it.
Watergate is not a rounding error on this one folks. You can't give them a pass just because you want their team to win.
Just watch them.
I doubt the Democrats actually want a trial. Subpoenas could be ordered for FBI documents, Pelosi's intelligence she had there would be a riot and her communications up to and the day of the riot. Along with all the videos of the day of the riot. Exculpatory evidence would have to be provided to the defense, all things the Democrats do not want anyone to find out have or they would have been brought out already in the second impeachment and trial. There would be defense witnesses and cross examinations of prosecution witnesses. There would be witness to dispute the silly stories, like the already exposed lie that Trump grabbed the wheel in a stretch limo from the back seat. A lot the Democrats definitely don't want exposed.
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Hard to prove?
There is no case!
"And while his "fight like hell" rhetoric in that context was undeniably reckless, it is plausible, given what we know about Trump, that he was so narrowly focused on promoting his own cause that he did not consider the likely impact of his words."
You ARE aware that the riot started partway through the speech, before the supposedly incendiary words, right?
You ARE aware that it was the product of a plot by others, conceived and set in motion before the speech, right?
IOW, his words on the Mall didn't have anything AT ALL to do with what happened. So stop pretending they did.
'....repeatedly told the President that (IN THEIR OPINION) the Vice President had no unilateral authority to prevent certification of the election....' meaning Pence, if his opinion is incorrect, should be the one prosecuted (or impeached) for failing to carry out his oath of office. Of course it's the same old Reason/Authoritarian BS arguments being made. Where you have zero evidence of any malfeasance, 'hard to prove' is irrelevant.
Months long rioting that "the cause" was rewarded with billions of dollars for, despite billions in damages and dozens of deaths, and was praised by elected officials, provided the example of how political grievance was to be aired.
Unlike blmantifa riots, January 6 was actually at the right location where the right "people" were to be the recipients.
There's no way out but through.
It's going to have to get kinetic.
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Fuck you, Sullum, with a running, rusty chain saw.
Trump is guilty of being a Lovecraftian horror. People exposed to him go insane with violent frothing hate and loathing, for no apparent reason at all.
"""President Trump repeatedly lied about the election, after he had been told by his advisors that there was no evidence of fraud sufficient to change the results of the election," the committee says.""
If he was told there was fraud, albeit less sufficient to change results, then that's a reason to believe fraud existed.
“””President Trump repeatedly lied about the election, after he had been told by his advisors that there was no evidence of fraud sufficient to change the results of the election,” the committee says.””
If lying was sufficient to bring charges, Obo would never be a free man again.
The trial will be in a DC court with a DC jury which means that Trump will not only be found guilty on all charges, but the jury will also find him guilty of being the second gunman on the grassy knoll and of concealing the body of Jimmy Hoffa.
Then the Washington Post will ask why the death penalty was taken off the table.
The real election deniers are the opposition to Trump wining the Presidency in 2016. Since Trump was elected he has faced a constant barrage of lies and manipulations.
The reality is that Trump was a mediocre President and still much better than Biden is. I never voted for either man as neither are qualified. Regardless Trump has been unjustly persecuted and now will be unjustly prosecuted. It's not that Trump is remotely close to a saint, but rather just a typical slimy politician.
There is very clearly a double standard at play and troubling that the regime not not even attempt to conceal it anymore. While Trump is a clown, Biden is much worse and the real crime is how poor the two major parties candidates have been.
The same Adam Schiff who, before the Mueller investigation was launched, claimed on multiple occcasions to have personally seen evidence which Mueller was unable to find has now reccomended criminal charges based on the idea that maybe DoJ would be able to find evidence that they happened?
Only a CNN "journalist" could be surprised if these charges fail to bear fruit.
On the other hand, if a prosecutor could get trump in front of a D.C. jury, they could probably get him convicted for the murders of Abraham Lincoln, JFK, and Vince Foster.
I have to wonder about the idea that a person is innocent because thought what they were doing is correct. Can you rob a bank because you truly thought the money in the bank was your own? You can believe what you want but that does not always mean you can act on those beliefs.
Same for acting on lawyers' advice. If you consult 10 lawyers, 9 tell you are wrong, and one tell you your actions are OK can you really claim to be acting on a lawyer's advice.
I think the former President's involvement in the insurrection will be hard to prove. I suspect the involvement in the fake elector scheme provide a better chance of conviction.
"I have to wonder about the idea that a person is innocent because thought what they were doing is correct."
This comes up all the time, actually.
Say you're cleaning out your file cabinet, and burn some old documents. Five minutes later the police show up with a warrant to search for them.
If you didn't know the police wanted them, you're probably innocent. If you did, you're in deep doo-doo.
Bank robbery, of course, is something everybody knows is clear cut illegal. But what Trump was doing was not necessarily so clear cut; Sure, the arguments were BS, but equally BS arguments actually prevail sometimes, a good deal of current constitutional jurisprudence consists of things that were just total BS somebody threw against a wall, and were shocked when it stuck.
Yup. Politicians use the word 'fight' all the time. They're going to fight for you. They're going to fight against those meanies who want to take away your benefits. Etc. If the case that Trump incited insurrection hinges on him uttering the words "fight like hell" and they're actually going to go to court with that, then all the TDS jokes and comparisons of the get-Trump crowd to a cult are entirely true.
Remember when Republicans were obsessed with Bill Clinton diddling the interns and it got to the point where Democrats formed a lobbying organization called "Move On"? That's where we are with this deranged Trump obsession now.
"overturn the results"
This is the first and most important part of your accusation and it remains the elephant in the room. It's really an achilles heel for you. "Overturn." Even if you give the most anti-Trump reading possible to what happened, nobody was trying to overturn the election. They were asking for official recognition and certification to be stopped. That doesn't mean Trump remains in office: it means the Constitutional crisis we experienced is given the time needed to address it appropriately.
Nobody ever said anything about the remedy because we never got past the first hurdle of hearing the case on its merits. Even in Arizona, Kari Lake's contested election suit has been barred from hearing certain issues, such as signature verification disputes.
I have consistently said that I do not know who truly won in 2020, nor do I know who won certain 2022 races. I know who has been certified as winning, but that is a separate matter entirely. I see the same fundamental problems. We are in the middle of ongoing Constitutional crises with our elections processes and NOBODY wants to take responsibility and answer difficult questions. There is no way to sugarcoat it: legal remedies to contest election practices are inadequate at best and non-existent at worst. Until we take the time to flesh out the process and take it seriously, our institutions and trust in them will continue to deteriorate.
I think a proper remedy to contested elections is to allow the result to stand, but to bind the winner to enact reforms that eliminate discrepancies in the future. Ex. Biden becomes President contingent upon Congress passing a Constitutional amendment that federalizes national elections and bans ballot harvesting.
Sullum pretends this is a legitimate referral, and ignores the obvious meaningless of it all. DOJ already has an active investigation underway, the referral is political theater, but he knows that.
Maybe they'll be hard to prove because they're not true. Accusing him for insurrection based on what he said is not possible. Trump never told anyone to do anything illegal. Never happened. But even if he did so what?? My words cannot and never will force anyone to do anything.
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I have never been a Trump lover but this has been the biggest Kangaroo Court I have ever seen. Pelosi did not like who the Republicans pick to be on the committee so she picks the 2 people in congress that actually hated Trump. Our whole congress, both sides are absolutely insane now. I would love to have a third party that is center in their platform that could actually win. I can't stand the far left and the so called Progressives. They are 2 sides of the same coin, addicted to control.
"Did Trump proceed with his cockamamie scheme even though he knew it was illegal"
This charge is already dead in the water as Democrats have come out today stating they will pass a law next week closing the loophole he was attempting to exploit, which literally means it wasn't illegal to do what he was trying to do.
They desperately need to plug that loophole. It could be exploited by the 'wrong' side the next time.
"I think the former President’s involvement in the insurrection will be hard to prove"
Especially considering none of the 800 or so people arrested to date have been charged with insurrection.
"What Sullum illustrates here, probably unintentionally, is that in every instance Trump was seeking to delay the certification by LEGAL means"
And Democrats literally confirmed this today when they came out and stated they will pass a law next week to close the loophole ...aka not illegal...that Trump was attempting to use.
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First, Trump is a garbage president. That being said, this argument is pretty much what the fuzzy leftists rely on when using the term "my truth", another way of saying that even though it isn't true, they believe it to be true, so it must be true. If this is strong enough to defend the left in their beliefs, how can they view Trump's "truth" any differently?
Bush Sr. and jr. sent me to wars. Jr. sent me to one over false pretenses and with no set final objectives.
Obama sent me to an unwinnable war.
Trump, on the other hand, did not.
Biden could have just ended Afghanistan with some measure of dignity. Instead, he turned it into a huge loss.
Sure, Trump is coarse and sort of vulgar. But he was not elected to teach diction and etiquette to my kids.
"First, Trump is a garbage president..."
You're full of shit.
He's a loud-mouth and an obnoxious personality, but he's the best POTUS in the last hundred years.
Reason again takes Leftist bubble chatter seriously, even while its readers recognize it as nonsense.
If there is one thing that the committee has made clear it is that Trump didn't conspire with anyone. So, mens rea doesn't even enter the picture: the man simply didn't have anything to do with the riots.
All he did was to claim that the election was stolen, a statement fully protected by the 1A; whether he believed it or not is immaterial.
Any principled libertarian should be appalled by the two impeachments and the J6 committee, all of them blatant, politically motivated abuses of power. Observing this has nothing to do with whether one likes Trump or not.
You can't have a third party.
What you can do is take over one of the two existing parties, or (harder) replace one of them.
That may seem unfortunate until you realize that if there were a successful third party, it wouldn't be libertarian, it would be hard left socialist/communist/fascist.
This sort of prosecution will fail for the reasons in the article. Much easier to prove fraud and tax evasion from Trump's financial records.
^ Idiot alert!
Of course, TDS-addled shit-pile! Why didn't someone think of of investigating his finances!
"to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in the discharge of his official duties."
So, attempting to impeach a president over charges that you know to be false, seems to fit into this category. The more I think about it, there are actually a bunch of actions which would fit this category much better than Trump's urging peaceful and patriotic protest.