Federal Judges Uphold Texas Law Regulating What Social Media Platforms May Censor
It’s a terrible ruling that misunderstands years of First Amendment precedents. And it’s increasingly likely that the Supreme Court will have to intervene.

A panel of federal circuit judges has upheld a Texas law that limits the ability of social media companies to moderate their platforms and forces them to carry speech they find objectionable in what certainly appears to be a complete violation and abandonment of First Amendment protections for private companies.
The law under review, H.B. 20, regulates large social media platforms (with more than 50 million users) and forbids them from censoring any user based on the viewpoint the user expresses, with some exceptions for child sexual exploitation, specific threats of violence, and any expression that is unlawful. In short, the law treats companies like Twitter and Facebook as "common carriers," ordering them against their will to serve as communication platforms for messages that they might find objectionable or that violate their community standards.
The law was challenged by NetChoice LLC, an association representing online platforms including Google, TikTok, and many others, arguing that H.B. 20 violates their First Amendment right to decide what sort of messages they wish to allow to be spread through their companies.
There is a robust list of court precedents that show that companies do, in fact, have such rights under the First Amendment, and the government's authority to force companies to transmit messages they disapprove of is very limited. In Florida, the 11th Circuit Court has stopped the enforcement of parts of S.B. 7072, which similarly attempts to force social media platforms to carry various messages. (Though in that case, it only covered candidates for office and links to media outlets.) A panel of judges determined that S.B. 7072 clearly violated the rights of the social media companies.
Not so in Texas. In May, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a lower court injunction that determined that H.B. 20 was likely unconstitutional and blocked it. But the court didn't actually release an explanation or decision at that time. Plaintiffs went to the Supreme Court and got the temporary stay reinstated pending the 5th Circuit's actual decision.
That decision upholding the law was finally released on Friday, and it reads like a Twitter rant, which is perhaps unsurprising given the subject matter. Written by Circuit Judge Andy Oldham, it declares on its very first page, "Today we reject the idea that corporations have a freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say." This is something people should find troubling.
"We are disappointed that the Fifth Circuit's split decision undermines First Amendment protections and creates a circuit split with the unanimous decision of the Eleventh Circuit," said NetChoice Vice President and General Counsel Carl Szabo in a prepared statement. "We remain convinced that when the U.S. Supreme Court hears one of our cases, it will uphold the First Amendment rights of websites, platforms, and apps."
Over at Techdirt, Mike Masnick describes it as "what appears to me to be the single dumbest court ruling I've seen in a long, long time." Masnick tees off on the bizarre logic from Oldham that H.B. 20 doesn't chill speech by controlling what social media platforms are allowed to do but instead prevents the censorship of speech:
Oldham continually focuses (incorrectly and incoherently) on the idea that editorial discretion is censorship. There's a reason that we've spent the last few years explaining how the two are wholly different—and part of it was to avoid people like Oldham getting confused. Apparently it didn't work.
Masnick notes this very troubling line from the ruling:
We reject the Platforms' efforts to reframe their censorship as speech. It is undisputed that the Platforms want to eliminate speech—not promote or protect it. And no amount of doctrinal gymnastics can turn the First Amendment's protections for free speech into protections for free censoring.
Judge Oldham's argument here is that the First Amendment simply doesn't protect businesses against compelled speech at all, Supreme Court precedents notwithstanding. Oldham doesn't seem to grasp that the way that online platforms moderate is a form of editorial control. He sees the case as unrelated to a previous ruling that a newspaper couldn't be forced to publish a response from a politician:
The Platforms are nothing like the newspaper in Miami Herald. Unlike newspapers, the Platforms exercise virtually no editorial control or judgment. The Platforms use algorithms to screen out certain obscene and spam-related content. And then virtually everything else is just posted to the Platform with zero editorial control or judgment.
Well, if that were true, Texas wouldn't have felt a need to pass H.B. 20 at all. Masnick notes that these platforms do exercise editorial control after the fact:
The websites do engage in editorial control. The difference from newspapers is that it's ex post control. If there are complaints, they will review the content afterwards to see if it matches with their editorial policies (i.e., terms of use). So, basically, Oldham is simply wrong here. They do exercise editorial control. That they use it sparingly does not mean they give up the right. Yet Oldham thinks otherwise.
Moderating content after it's been posted is necessary given the sheer amount of posting volume these companies deal with. The alternative would be for every single comment or post to be moderated before it's posted. (Some websites used to do that. Some probably still do. Imagine trying to do that with Twitter.)
Because the 5th Circuit's opinion is so clearly at odds with the 11th Circuit's ruling, this dramatically increases the likelihood that the Supreme Court will now intervene.
Supreme Court Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas both want to look at the boundaries of social media platform regulation. Last year, Thomas wrote in a brief that the Supreme Court needs to consider how changes in the media landscape and the way people communicate online change who has the power to control who is and is not platformed. He wrote at the time:
Today's digital platforms provide avenues for historically unprecedented amounts of speech, including speech by government actors. Also unprecedented, however, is the concentrated control of so much speech in the hands of a few private parties. We will soon have no choice but to address how our legal doctrines apply to highly concentrated, privately owned information infrastructure such as digital platforms.
Part of the debate is whether the government can or should classify social media platforms as "common carriers," like phone companies or other utilities, that simply provide a service and shouldn't have control over how people use it (as long as it's being used legally). One of the Supreme Court cases that gets brought up frequently is PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins from 1980. It's one of the rare cases where the Supreme Court allowed a government (in this case, the state of California) to force a private business (a shopping mall) to serve as a speech platform (high school students soliciting signatures for a petition).
None of this is to say that Alito and Thomas agree with Texas' or Florida's regulations. Alito said when he voted against intervening in the initial implementation of H.B. 20 that "[he has] not formed a definitive view on the novel legal questions that arise from Texas's decision to address the 'changing social and economic' conditions it perceives." But both he and Thomas do think it's time for the Supreme Court to weigh in on whether the government can treat these companies as common carriers, even though the companies themselves clearly don't want that. Given the lower court split, it looks like they may soon get the chance.
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Sorry, but since these social media platforms effectively act as common carriers in this day and age, they should be treated as common carriers. Tough shit, but they do not get the right to regulate what people say. It takes a pretty twisted interpretation of the 1st Amendment to say that treating Facebook and Twitter as common carriers is a bad thing.
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one. When you exercise editorial control, you are a publisher."
I’ve heard this utter balderdash from an endless army of marching morons! Using the VERY simple principle of “speech is speech is also writing or any other method of idea conveyance”, then WHAT is “editorial control”? It is simply, picking and choosing what to repeat or report, and what to ignore!
Examples:
Der TrumpfenFuhrer goes on and on and ON AND ON for 2 hours, telling us all just HOW wonderful he is. In the middle of all this boredom, He says, “And voters should only be allow to vote “R”, and NOT for “D” or “L”, ‘cause ALL “D” and “L” votes are fraudulent!” … Now if the media reports ONLY the juicy excerpt from Der TrumpfenFuhrer’s endless blathering, they are clearly “editing”… So we can SUE them (the media) for quoting Der TrumpfenFuhrer said, right, right-wing wrong-nuts? Media LIED to us by omitting context!!!
Der BidenFuhrer goes on and on and ON AND ON for 5 hours, telling us all just HOW wonderful Hunter Biden’s artwork is. In the middle of all this boredom, He says, “And income taxes need to be set to 98% for EVERYONE!” … Now if the media reports ONLY the juicy excerpt from Der BidenFuhrer’s endless blathering, they are clearly “editing”… So we can SUE them (the media) for quoting (“out of context, edited”) what Der BidenFuhrer said, right, left-wing wrong-nuts?
Partisan POWER PIG bullshit all the way down!
Sqrlsy, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Content free RANT by a mental RUNT!!! (AND a cunt ass well!!! Ain't THAT swell, if you can get past the smell?!?!)
That made about as much sense as using a plastic bag over your head to keep Covid at bay.
That made about as much sense as being an insane troll!!!!
Sqrlsy, meet mirror. Mirror, meet Sqrlsy.
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Also, you do know what "insane troll logic" is as a trope, don't you? You demonstrated it rather well in your earlier post. Personally, I find the trope quite amusing.
You are a trope full of tripe, with ZERO data or sensible thinking!
Fuck off, Sqrlsy.
I just worked part-time from my apartment for 5 weeks, but I made $30,030. I lost my former business and was soon worn out. Thank goodness, I found this employment online and I was able to start working from home right away. [res-05] This top career is achievable by everyone, and it will improve their online revenue by:.
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After reading this article:>>>> https://extradollars3.blogspot.com/
its what Sqrlsy does
Have you considered getting some medical help for this? This sort of incoherence is something that modern pharmaceuticals have been known to help with.
All of the GOOD totalitarians KNOW that those who oppose totalitarianism are mentally ill, yes!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=During%20the%20leadership%20of%20General,that%20contradicted%20the%20official%20dogma.
I am just trying to help you. The meds are for your own good.
All of the GOOD totalitarians KNOW that they're just trying to "help us"... Like Hitler, Stalin, and Briggs Cunningham!
No one is a totalitarian. You shouldn't be forced to take the meds. You just should because you are fucking nuts.
Says the one who wants to nationalize FacePooo etc. ... 'Cause "they took down my post!!!! Waaaa!!! Where's my waaaaambulance, my teddy bear, and my warm ba-ba?!?!"
Hey whining crybaby… I pay (PAY! With MY money! I OWN!) for my own web site at Go-Daddy. I say some VERY sarcastic and un-politically-correct, intolerant things about cults like Scientology there (and Government Almighty as well). I am QUITE sure that a LOT of “tolerant” liberal-type folks at Google etc. would NOT be happy with the types of things I wrote! Yet, if you do a search-string “Scienfoology”, Google will take you STRAIGHT to MY web site, top hit! #1!
https://www.google.com/search?q=scienfoology&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPzZqf0dXsAhUCT6wKHez9DNwQvgUoAXoECDEQKg&biw=1920&bih=941
Your whining and crying is (just about ) UTTERLY without basis!
WHERE is your respect for property rights?! I learned to respect the property rights of others, before I was in the 1st grade! Didn’t your Momma raise you right?
Yeah, exactly like that. Talk about driving Briggs point home.
The point of whatever Squirrelsy says is the Mute Button.
All GOOD fascists mute the SQRLSY One... Along with muting their conscience!
Mission accomplished! I’ve now shown yet AGAIN that the hordes of small-minded “conservatives” here on these comment pages are intellectually, morally, and spiritually bankrupt! For lack of ANY factual or logical and benevolent-minded response, they variously resort to endlessly repeated lies, grade-school-level vapid insults, and even stoop so low as to encourage the smarter and more benevolent posters to commit suicide! They are indeed vapid and vile vipers!
I for one can’t STAND the idea that a casual reader here of a libertarian news and commenting site would read the vapid and vile comments, and conclude, “Oh, so THAT’s what libertarians are all about!” No, it’s just that libertarians (and VERY few others) still believe in free speech, so the troglodytes come HERE, where their vile lies & vapid insults will NOT be taken down!
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
In conclusion, troglodytes, thanks for helping me to prove my points!
Never mind that Section 230 doesn't make any kind of publisher/platform dichotomy in its language. The only place it mentions either publisher or platform:
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by an- other information content provider."
In fact, Section 230 is pretty consistent in being a law about "interactive computers services", period.
"Never mind that Section 230 doesn't make any kind of publisher/platform dichotomy in its language."
Just because it doesn't say those exact words, doesn't mean that the differentiation isn't obviously there. Who do you imagine that you're tricking, here?
I think what I like best, is that you can read and quote this--
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by an- other information content provider."
and STILL not understand that it is the very line that makes our point.
I think that YOU should be punished for what I have written!!!! THEN you might understand!
(Let us also punish the library if we can find any lies or slander in the books on their shelves!)
Tomorrow he will never have read this.
Am I misunderstanding the first amendment? Reason says that the media should have the right to censor? Isn't that against the first amendment? I do understand targeting children, child porn, etc, but speech? What happens when they are partisan like they are against conservatives? Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, etc, cannot be so-called common carriers and be allowed to censor. Once you become a public company, you should not be able to censor speech, with few exceptions of course.
Yes, you misunderstand the First Amendment. Private companies have the right to free speech. Being partisan is not prohibited by the First Amendment.
These aren’t common carriers. They are private interactive computer services. So, you’d misunderstand that, too.
Phone companies are private companies which we use voluntarily, yet are defined as common carriers. No one says that they should be allowed to censor; if you don't like it, start your own phone company. It's not a stretch to define ISPs or social media similarly. Unless you're loving the censorship, that is.
"Congress shall make no law" is the first 5 words of the first amendment. It originally applied only to the federal government.
It was later applied to the states.
It does not restrict private companies or individuals.
If they can classify the phone companies as common carriers, and they clearly can, then there is no reason why they can't do the same to social media platforms. You can't run a business without a presence on social media. If a few social media platforms are allowed to both control access to social media in general and discriminate on the basis of political viewpoint, then anyone holding an unpopular viewpoint can essentially be run out of public life via the decision of a few companies.
Only someone as mendacious as Shackford could see such a situation as conducive to freedom and worse claim that preventing it is somehow worse for freedom than allowing it to happen. In reason's world, the freedom of a few giant multinational corporations who are known to work hand in glove with the government having the freedom to discriminate against anyone holding a political view they don't like is more important than having a civic dialog where people feel free to speak their opinions without fear of being deprived of the ability to communicate to a broad audience.
There is a robust list of court precedents that show that companies do, in fact, have such rights under the First Amendment, and the government's authority to force companies to transmit messages they disapprove of is very limited.
Tell that to the phone company.
Or the power company. According to Scott, they have a right to shut you off because they don't like your politics, even though you pay your bills. Scott is pro freedom like that.
Briggs Cunningham's house is now a "common carrier". Let's ALL go sit in Briggs Cunningham's living room, and yell loudly about politics all day, and TAKE OVER HIS HOUSE!!! Yeah, THAT will show our love for FREEDOM!!!!
If I am in the business of allowing people to come in my house and yell about politics, sure. If not, then you are just making an idiotic and pointless analogy.
People with low IQs such as yourself, should not be posting about these issues. You just do things like this and embarrass yourself and others.
YOU are the IDIOT who compared a power company with social media companies! Electrical power conveys NO data and NO opinions, viewable by the public! If YOU (idiot) are going to make idiotic comparisons, then I will, too!
You are a MARXIST who wants to use Government Almighty POWER to take OVER the private properties of social media companies!!! If you were NOT a pussy-grabbing THIEF, you would BUY 51% OF THE STOCK of FacePoooo, BEFORE you try to boss them around! Power pig MARXIST!!!!
Yes, the power company can't discriminate on the basis of politics. No one is forcing them to go into another business, just offer their services to anyone regardless of politics.
I am not in the business of having people come into my house and yell about politics, your forcing me to allow that is not the same as forcing someone who is in that business do so with all comers.
I don't know how to make it any simpler than that. I admit, I really don't know how to communicate with people like you who have low IQs and likely some serious mental problems. I am not a trained professional. So forgive me if this still goes over your head.
FacePooo belongs to FacePooo stockholders, NOT to YOU, power-lusting Marxist asshole! No matter HOW many voters you line up for your Marxist ways of thinking!!! I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.
You LIKE Marxism? PLEASE move to North Korea or Venezuela, and leave freedom-lovers alone!
AT&T also had stockholders. That didn't mean they got to cut you off for talking about something they didn't like. That's what a common carrier is, dork.
The important distinction that DELIBERATE IDIOTS chose to ignore is, SOME entities CONVEY SOCIAL AND POLITICAL STANCES VIEWABLE BY THE PUBLIC, and others do NOT! You assholes want to TAKE OVER MY WEB SITE to say shit that I do NOT support!!!
PAY FOR YOUR OWN WEB SITE, whining cry-baby!!! You can DO that, you know!!!!
Hey whining crybaby… I pay (PAY! With MY money! I OWN!) for my own web site at Go-Daddy. I say some VERY sarcastic and un-politically-correct, intolerant things about cults like Scientology there (and Government Almighty as well). I am QUITE sure that a LOT of “tolerant” liberal-type folks at Google etc. would NOT be happy with the types of things I wrote! Yet, if you do a search-string “Scienfoology”, Google will take you STRAIGHT to MY web site, top hit! #1!
https://www.google.com/search?q=scienfoology&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPzZqf0dXsAhUCT6wKHez9DNwQvgUoAXoECDEQKg&biw=1920&bih=941
Your whining and crying is (just about ) UTTERLY without basis!
WHERE is your respect for property rights?! I learned to respect the property rights of others, before I was in the 1st grade! Didn’t your Momma raise you right?
Briggs really kicked your ass just now, didn't he.
Your attempts to redefine the allowable criteria for common carrier status are a) historically wrong, b) legally wrong and c) logically inconsistent. Your attempts at yelling and deflection have failed.
Note that none of the people arguing with you have said that the common carrier laws are "good" - they have merely said that the common carrier laws have been deemed constitutional and that there is no obvious reason why they can't be applied by a legislature to this new situation.
Social media carries publically-viewable content with significant political and social meaning. Free speech issues are HEAVILY involved! NONE of that is true of these other public utilities!!! Plain and simple!!! You Marxists want to pussy-grab the social media companies, and imagine that your political enemies will NEVER pussy-grab you right back!!! This is PROFOUNDLY ignorant of politics and human nature, to power-pig so blatantly, this way!!! YEAH for Section 230!!!
You really don’t understand this argument, SQRLSY.
Does Twitter have an easement on my property? My power company does.
Just give it a few.
The precedents actually show posts put on a community board are not the speech of the business.
Amazing how wrong Scott is when the courts directly rebutted his claims in their 90 page ruling.
Conversely, in PruneYard Shopping Ctr. v. Robins, the Supreme Court held that the state could require privately owned shopping centers to allow individuals to distribute political literature without violating the mall owners’ First Amendment rights. In upholding California’s mandate, the high court reasoned that PruneYard did not involve the concerns present in Miami Herald, namely forced speech through the state telling a newspaper what to print.
The above is one of 5 precedent cases in the 90 page ruling.
https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/19/federal-court-deals-major-blow-to-big-tech-and-sets-up-scotus-to-restore-free-speech/
The fifth circuit balanced the case on precedence. Amazing how none of the leftists here bothered to actually read the decision. The above is a good example of the balance. Another case was Miami Herald, but that case involved publishers which is the case the injunction heavily relied on. The companies state they are not publishers.
I would say removing certain politicians while leaving other politicians on is an in kind campaign contribution.
And we have proof that the current administration (at least) has been, in fact, telling social media what to keep up and what to take down.
Uhhhhhhhh, Reason? Everything OK over there? This makes 2 consecutive articles that aren't about your benefactor Charles Koch's arch-nemesis Ron DeSantis.
Hey everyone did you know DeSantis HUMAN TRAFFICKED Brown bodies to Martha's Vineyard? Or that he literally made it illegal to say "gay"?
#LizCheney2024
I'm not totally familiar with all the case law here but I'm certain of one thing.
If all the roles were reversed, Shackford would be 100% in support of this ruling.
"If all the roles were reversed..."
Ass in, those who are now power-pig, property-rights-thwarting assholes, started to favor property rights and individual freedom? I, too, would join Shackford in giving a hearty cheer!
no. If major social media platforms were banning drag queens and vax pushers and pro-trans ideologists and such, if cancelled Hilary Clinton's account for made up offenses , then Shackford would be all for having the government step in and force those platforms to allow it.
It know it, you know it, everyone knows it.
It's teams not principles.
Let us not forget the part where the current administration leans on the platforms to censor their enemies.
If it came out that the Trump administration had been leaning on FB to ban Covid fearmongers and those who denied the legitimacy of his election (and there were legion) and such, you can be sure there'd be apoplectic fits happening here at Reason even to this day.
but since it's just the Biden admin doing that against anti-vaxxers and eleciton deniers so it's ok.
Muh TEAM!
On both sides, their first threat is to take down Section 230. THIS is why sensible people favor KEEPING S-230! ANY replacement will be WORSE!!!
Section 230 …
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act.shtml
No, sensible people support declaring them common carriers and ending their ability to discriminate based on view point.
NO sensible people support Marxism!!! SOME Marxists would say that if Catholic nuns set up a server and a forum "for discussing Catholic nuns who like to raise rabbits for a hobby", then they should be FORCED to host RANTS about punishing all of the anti-abortion people!!! Power-pigging... It is what power pigs DO!
I'm not actually arguing for or against that.
I'm merely saying it is a certainty that al the people screeching about it now would flip their positions if if their team was getting censored and banned right and left off social media.
Sad to say, run-away tribalism makes what you say to be... Largely true!!!! Free speech for me, but not for thee!!!!
Say's the deep blue tribalist troll trying to shitpost arguments he disagrees with off the board instead of engaging in debate or even refutation.
What an enourmous hypocrite you are.
SOME of us are smart enough to notice that you... '1) Repeat the same old lies over and over, and '2) offer up NOTHING other than empty-headed insults, when you're shown to be wrong.
You are not smart enough to notice anything. You are dumber and more incoherent than Shreek. You are just a blathering idiot. Shreek is a demented liar. Your posts are so incoherent they don't even rise to the level of lies. A lie implies some level of coherence that is well beyond you.
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Reason couldn't afford me. But they would most certainly benefit from my presence. Regardless, they don't want quality writing. They want hacks who do and say as they are told.
All of these companies conspired with the government to deplatform anyone who questioned the efficacy of the lockdowns or the COVID vaccine. Reason has never said boo about that. But they are all about preserving the "freedom" of these companies to continue to act as an extra judicial enforcement arm of the government.
Reason is sort of like Pravda back in the day. You can see what they're saying if you read between the lines.
The truth is found in what they don't talk about not in what they do.
If Reason is so in favor of sensoring conservative viewpoint, why do they allow these comments on their own site?
It's a credit to them they haven't shut down their comments a long time ago.
I have been told straight from Reason management that they are embarrassed by the comments, which is why they hide them by default when a web page is loaded.
Sure Mikey.
Or even if you just read the lines. Pretty consistently libertarian.
Reason has never said boo about that.
Yep, nothing.
"How Government Officials Bully Social Media Companies Into Censorship" - Liz Wolfe, 2022-09-14
"Biden's Sneaky Censors" - Jacob Sullum, 2022-09-14
"These Emails Show How the Biden Administration's Crusade Against 'Misinformation' Imposes Censorship by Proxy" - Jacob Sullum, 2022-09-01
"Facebook, Instagram Posts Flagged as False for Rejecting Biden's Recession Wordplay" - Robby Soave, 2022-07-29
"The Biden Administration Sees Free Speech As a Public Menace" - Jacob Sullum, 2022-05-04
Sorry for no links, but my other post won't go through with them for some reason.
That is okay. And fair enough. They have said some things. Where have they ever said this was a problem other than just bad actors in government? None of those articles blame the social media companies, despite them happily going along with the government. And none of those articles ever offers any solution to the problem beyond "well I guess Biden was wrong here". Yeah that is mighty white of them. It would be nice if Reason would stop pretending these companies are entirely private companies when their own articles show them to be willing agents of government censorship.
The fourth article is mostly about the social media companies and third-party fact-checkers. I included it specifically to address that point. There was also the Stossel video on fact-checkers that faults both the "fact-checkers" and the social media companies for relying on them for censoring that I didn't mention before.
But you are blaming the private company for the bad actions of the government. Specifically using the regulatory power of the State to cajole these companies to moderate the way the State wants, which is a clear violation of the First Amendment in my mind. But you are defending a solution that uses the power of the State to enforce no (or at least very limited) moderation.
They are going along with government and hiding it from customers. I also blamed banks for operation chokepoint.
You also seem to be ignoring the revolving door between big government and these companies.
When government collusion is happening it is good to have a government tell itself and business they can't collude.
From what I’ve seen, This is a fairly recent development on their part. I’ve noticed Reason foundation has also (very recently) begun slipping in some articles about the problematics of ESG and DEI. It’s a few years late to the game, but hey, it’s there. Kinda.
And the prior 4 years it was happening where they screamed about private companies? Check your dates.
They started tempering their views as more and more came out about government collusion where prior they ignored it.
Are you this gullible?
Written by Circuit Judge Andy Oldham, it declares on its very first page, "Today we reject the idea that corporations have a freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say." This is something people should find troubling.
I find it a lot less troubling than the prospect of communications companies (which is the correct analogy for social networks) selectively interfering with the communications they've been engaged to deliver.
The corporations themselves aren't being compelled to say anything (in fact, most of us would be happy if they'd STFU). They are being compelled to allow their users to talk to each other, which is allegedly the service they're offering. Forcing them to live up to their obligation to deliver what they promised has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
Scott is part of the left-libertarians for government demanded censorship by private companies wing of the freedum cockis.
The philosophical presumption that disallowing viewpoint discrimination on a platform is "compelled speech" requires one to believe that the platform implicitly endorses all speech its users post, rather than it being the speech of the users only.
Comparing it to a response in a newspaper is a problem as well. The available space within a newspaper is finite, and the paper does not advertise itself as an open forum, or "town square". The space available on a platform is relatively infinite, furthermore. A platform does not have to edit for space limitations like a dead tree newspaper or magazine.
The now proven evidence of the platforms' collusion with elements of the government and the Democrats to suppress dissenting speech makes the "editorial discretion is free speech" argument ridiculous on its face.
Hey, no libertarian concern that you are interfering with the relationship between a private business and its customers. Guess what: the users, who are given free-of-charge accounts, are NOT the customers. The advertisers are.
Hey, no libertarian concern that you are interfering with the relationship between a private business and its customers.
There is some concern for that. But that isn't the only concern. The much larger concern is that this area is dominated by a very few companies, has enormous barriers to entry, and those companies are acting, often in cooperation with the government, to ensure that unpopular or dissenting view points are suppressed.
I think that takes precedent over whatever concern you have with making these companies accept all customers. Indeed, if you are so concerned with that, then why are you not equally trying to repeal the Civil Rights Act and every single labor law in the country? I don't recall you ever having much to say about that.
has enormous barriers to entry,
Nope. On the contrary, the barriers to entry are incredibly low. The problem is that market penetration or uptake is difficult, which is a different matter. Branding is not a barrier to entry but a commercial advantage.
Tell that to parlor and other companies banned from standard tools and services.
Still not barriers to entry.
"Once marketplaces reach a critical inflection point, network effects kick in and growth follows an exponential, rather than linear, trajectory. These network effects also create barriers to entry: Once many buyers and sellers are using a marketplace, it becomes harder for a rival to lure them away."
- Harvard Business Review "Network Effects Aren’t Enough" by Andrei Hagiu and Simon Rothman
Network effects is the main reason that large companies such as Facebook and Twitter are large companies and can contain competition.
Notice the contradiction here by Dee. The users aren’t the customer, the advertisers are.
But that means the users aren’t getting the service for free, they’re getting it in exchange for their personal data, which is then sold to advertisers.
Is Dee being dense or disingenuous here? I’ll let you decide.
Why choose? 'Both' is the best fit answer.
But that is not what happening. We now have documented evidence that the government pressured these platforms to ban and censor people the regime doesn't approve of.
This is WAY beyond a private company curating what happens on their own private platform. It is in fact, profoundly dangerous.
Yep. Any conversation that doesn't start there is missing the point. This is exactly like government hiring a private security firm made of ex-cops to search your house without a warrant and report back. The fact that government didn't actually perform the illegal search is irrelevant -- it was done at the behest of government entities.
The users enter into a contract with these platforms and, as the Berenson case proved, these companies are in direct violation of that contract with many users.
Also, ridiculous reasoning:
* Papers do not advertise themselves as an open forum or "town square". Papers do that all the time, at least to the same extent any social media platform has.
* Twitter is FAR from being a town square. Most Americans don't have a Twitter account, and those who do are not active daily users. And those who are active daily users are as likely to be following sports, or celebrities, or funny videos as they are to be following politics.
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/tag/town-square/
https://www.oregoncapitalinsider.com/opinion/capital-chatter-newspapers-remain-a-foundation-for-the-great-town-square-of-public-opinion/article_9ee0d2aa-fe52-11ec-a20a-4babaf27e7f9.html
This is my old home-town newspaper's "Town Square", which appeared in print every week:
https://www.mv-voice.com/square/
So anyone who likes can publish an article in it? Really? If not, then it isn't a town square and they are not using the term in the same way it is used here.
I’m going to have them publish an op-ed about how Mike Liarson is a squawking bird names Dee every week. She just told me they will.
Papers do not advertise themselves as an open forum or "town square". Papers do that all the time, at least to the same extent any social media platform has.
No they don't. Their business model is one of providing content which they choose. No one operates a newspaper as an open model that allows anyone to publish an article they like.
Twitter is FAR from being a town square. Most Americans don't have a Twitter account, and those who do are not active daily users. And those who are active daily users are as likely to be following sports, or celebrities, or funny videos as they are to be following politics.
If this law were just aimed at Twitter, you would have a point. This law is aimed at all social media. Twitter is part of the town square. We are talking about Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, and the rest. Combined, those are the town square. And people should not be banned from such because they hold unpopular political or dissenting views.
If this applies to all social media, would it then apply to web forums? A Facebook post is essentially the same thing as a post in a forum thread with people being able to comment and respond to the original post. Would you object to a web forum for Falun Gong banning praise of the CCP? What about Facebook? If there is a difference, what is it?
No it would not. The law only applies to companies with large numbers of users. Small web forums would be exempt, as they should be.
So what is the difference? Where do you set the line?
Huge difference. Small diverse web forums are not going to be able to run people out of the public square.
So what about Reddit? If the law does not allow services with more than 50 million users (Reddit has over 100 million monthly users) to censor its users based on viewpoint. That would seem to imply that subreddits would no longer be able to moderate internally according to their own community standards. How do you get around this?
Or what if some Catholic forum became really popular. Should they be forced to host posts with anti-Catholic Chick Tracts if they manage to reach 50 million users?
In that case it isn't reddit censoring it. It is their users doing so. And that is fine. We are talking about access to the platform not every forum with in it. Reddit couldn't kick people off its platform entirely for content. But moderators could absolutely do so for their forums.
You set the line at companies that are so large, the GOP hates them. If "Truth" Social had 60mm members, the law would say 100mm is the cut-off.
If you want to declare it a common carrier along with the rest, I don't have a problem with that. Fair is fair.
Just because you have no principles, doesn't mean everyone else is the same.
I have few principles. I have heuristics. You get closer to reality that way.
Someone tell Mike most town squares go unused by the vast majority of Americans. What an idiotic argument.
"Twitter is FAR from being a town square."
Twitter literally advertised itself as a town square at the start.
And you already know that you disingenuous cunt. People here have already given you links to the old ads and Dorsey's comments.
Dammit, ML, I swear I didn't copy your post. Seems like great minds think alike, right down to using the exact same insult.
Yeah! Insults are where it’s at, baby!
And always handy when one doesn’t have a cogent counter argument.
This implies your original argument wasn't infantile trash.
They had a cogent counter argument, you’re just too much of a disingenuous cunt to grok it.
Twitter is FAR from being a town square.
Quick Google search yields:
Twitter has only recently changed their "About" section on their website and no longer use the phrase "public square". But they did. For years.
White Mike is, as usual, being a disingenuous cunt.
He is wrong. It’s not. That might have been his aspiration for Twitter, but most people don’t use Twitter.
What percent of Americans use your local town squares dumbass?
Oh, and by the way fuck off with the personal attacks. Muting.
No one cares.
if companies can be barred from ds criminating against race, religion, etc, then they can be barred from discriminating against political ideology.
If you think thats unconstitutional, all discrimination law is equally unconstitutional.
I'll raise the point I've raised a number of times, since I've never really gotten much in the way of a substantive response. I can see the argument that libertarians shouldn't support the government telling a business who they should and shouldn't be able to offer their services to. I can see the argument that libertarians shouldn't support the government telling a business what terms it should offer its services under.
And I can see the argument that libertarians shouldn't support the government carving out exceptions in the law for a select group of companies. That's just cronyism, which I've always been assured is anathema to libertarianism. And that's what Section 230 does. It says a publisher can publish IP violations or slander and have no responsibility, just as long as they do it online. It effectively grants Big Tech common carrier legal liability protection. If libertarians are going to rail against imposing common carrier access controls against Big Tech, that's fine. It's in keeping with libertarian principle. But, granting them this subsidy at the same time is a rank violation of libertarian principle. When Reason starts calling for the repeal of Section 230, maybe I'll take their cries about attempts to impose common carrier status on them.
Section 230 does a FINE job of protecting property rights on-line... We need the SAME thing for hardcopy rags!!!
Sooo… Your “fix” to all of this is to punish “publishers” (web sites) for the content generated by OTHER people? Those who post?
SOME people here have argued that, since there has been at least one (several?) case(s) of hardcopy rags (newspapers) sued FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS, namely letter-to-the-editor writers (it was all well and good to authoritarians that SOME people got punished for the writings of OTHER people), then the proper fix MUST be to perpetrate / perpetuate this obvious injustice right on over to the internet domain!
This is like arguing that the “fix” for a cop strangling to death, a black man (Eric Garner) on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies” is, not to STOP the injustice, but rather, to go and find some White and Hispanic and Asian men as well, and strangle them, as well, on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies”! THAT will make it all “fair”!
NY Times (NYT) can be punished for what someone ELSE wrote in a letter-to-the-editor in their hardcopy rag! An injustice, to be “fixed” by punishing Facebook for the same kind of offenses! Hey: Tear down Section 230 to “fix” this? Or REALLY fix it by adding a “Section 230 for hardcopy rags”?
In 1850, I imagine that perhaps some people in the USA were saying it isn’t fair that white folks hold black folks as slaves. Let’s “fix” it by having a bunch of black folks hold white slaves, too!
What kind of EVIL person fixes injustice by widening the spread of more injustice of the same kind? HOW does this “fix” ANYTHING?!?!
If the publisher has the unmitigated right to remove posts they disagree with, they presumably find nothing objectionable in the content they publish. You can resolve the matter by getting rid of IP protections and libel/slander laws. But, I don't think the Social Media Giants are going to be big fans of that. And I would think you'd understand that. If you were sober.
We could also resolve the issue by SUING THE PERSON WHO WROTE SOMETHING, and NEVER punishing the publisher, for something that SOMEONE ELSE wrote!!! Internet and hardcopy alike!!!
WHERE are the conservatives clamoring for "Section 230 for hardcopy rags"? Too busy pussy-grabbing FacePooo, perhaps? And imagining, without basis, that they will NEVER get pussy-grabbed right back?
"But, granting them this subsidy..."
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
Nobody is saying it's unfair to the website owners. It's unfair to the victims of IP abuse and slander. But, I think you know that.
Or you would, if you were sober.
Section 230 is NOT a subsidy to ANYONE, liar!!!
Section 230 …
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act.shtml
Your link doesn't do much to refute the claim. All it says is that it applies widely and, therefore, somehow, isn't a subsidy. That's just silly. Whoever wrote that must have been as drunk as you are.
But, it's good to know you're one of those #libertariansforcorporatesubsidies.
So, when the gun-grabbers argue that "protecting the gun industry" from lawsuits FOR SHIT THAT THEY (the gun makers) DID NOT DO, do you agree with the gun-grabbers? Protection from lawsuits = subsidy? Are you ready to pay for guns (and-or insurance) to the tune of $50,000 per gun, $100 per round of ammo? What kind of hypocritical anti-freedom asshole did you say that you were?
You obviously aren't very good at this. The proposed liability for gun makers is for working as intended. It's a break from accepted liability law. The longstanding law around publishing liability is that publishers share responsibility for what the publish.
Changing longstanding law to accommodate the needs of certain participants is a subsidy. Not altering the law isn't.
Do you agree with PUNISHING a newspaper for "publishing" a letter to the editor? Do you agree with PUNISHING me for posting YOUR post to MY web site? Do you agree with punishing a gun manufacturer (or a hammer manufacturer, or a knife manufacturer) for what some random asshole did WITH SAID PRODUCT? DO YOU AGREE WITH PUNISHING YOU FOR WHAT I WROTE???!!??!
What kind of asshole ARE you, at the end of the day?!??! "Justice"... Does it mean ANYTHING to you?
It makes sense to me that, as a forum "owner" on a electronic media site, that anyone should be free to say anything they want about any subject at my expense, and on my nickel. Yeah, right.
For those who want to compare phone companies to social media... well, there is a difference: you pay for your phone service. Maybe social media should charge-per-word for posting?
I am imagining what Reason's comment section would look like if that was the industry standard....
It makes sense to me that, as a forum "owner" on a electronic media site, that anyone should be free to say anything they want about any subject at my expense, and on my nickel.
They are not doing anything on your nickel. Your business is based on them providing you information about them and access to their attention which you then sell to advertisers. You are benefiting from them being there or you wouldn't have a business. Do you think these companies operate a charity or something? Do you just understand how they work?
For those who want to compare phone companies to social media... well, there is a difference: you pay for your phone service. Maybe social media should charge-per-word for posting?
You are paying for your social media service. You are paying with your information and with access to you as a customer. By your logic, TV viewers are not really customers but free loaders.
"You are paying for your social media service. You are paying with your information and with access to you as a customer. By your logic, TV viewers are not really customers but free loaders."
Can you please show me on my TV remote where the button is that says "leave a comment?"
It is the same principle. They don't let you have Twitter account because they care what you have to say. They let you have a Twitter account because doing so allows them to sell your information and access to you to advertisers just like the TV sells access to you. The fact that in one case you are passively watching TV and in the other case you are typing crap that almost no one is going to read makes no difference. In both cases the business model is essentially the same. You get entertained. And the provider of that entertainment sells access to you to advertisers.
I think we are just going to have to disagree on this.
Or you just need to concede the argument. If selling your information to advertisers isn't the business model, what is? These companies make billions of dollars. They are some of the richest corporations in history. How exactly are they doing that if all of their users are "using the platform on the company's dime"?
"These companies make billions of dollars."
Excuse enough for power-mad, envious Marxists to take over their property rights, using the powers of Government Almighty!!! Marxism is as Marxists do!!!
No one is taking their property rights away. They already can't discriminate against customers based on race or national origin or sex. Is the Civil Rights Act Marxist? I don't hear you or any of the other leftists claiming that.
State governments have always had the power to require businesses to serve all comers. There is no taking here. You are an idiot and need to shut up.
An emergency room? Human life at stake... Public accommodation laws make sense.
Whining crybaby got his or her post taken down? Fuck off and put up your own blog or web site, like I did! Power pigs!!!
Is a human life at stake to eat at a restaurant? Not last I looked. Yet, public accommodation laws still apply there. Indeed, they should. Without them, there were entire areas of the country where black people could not fully participate in society.
We don't want a situation where a few companies can decide that anyone holding an unpopular view can no longer be a part of the public debate. You want that. But that is because you are fascist fucking idiot who happily embrace a police state as long as you thought your tribe was going to run things.
"We don't want a situation where a few companies can decide that anyone holding an unpopular view can no longer be a part of the public debate."
Says whining crybaby!!! Waaaa!!!!
Hey whining crybaby… I pay (PAY! With MY money! I OWN!) for my own web site at Go-Daddy. I say some VERY sarcastic and un-politically-correct, intolerant things about cults like Scientology there (and Government Almighty as well). I am QUITE sure that a LOT of “tolerant” liberal-type folks at Google etc. would NOT be happy with the types of things I wrote! Yet, if you do a search-string “Scienfoology”, Google will take you STRAIGHT to MY web site, top hit! #1!
https://www.google.com/search?q=scienfoology&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPzZqf0dXsAhUCT6wKHez9DNwQvgUoAXoECDEQKg&biw=1920&bih=941
Your whining and crying is (just about ) UTTERLY without basis!
Yes, you are totally happy with a police state just as long as it only goes after people you don't like. You are a fascist idiot. We know that. Restating it doesn't help your case.
Well then you’re wrong. They don’t even deny that’s their business model. It’s accepted fact.
So Marxists can mumble some shit about "business model" and then take over YOUR shit! THIS is the "business model" of Marxism!
And, or course, all these social media sites do have paying customers: their advertisers! And you know what advertisers aren’t too thrilled about — paying for advertising on a site with offensive content.
Offensive content like scientists giving facts about the COVID vaccine’s safety issues. My god you are a clown. You really are just a complete clown
They have signed a contract just like with a phone carrier.
If these companies explicitly set their rules to no conservative posts, I'd have no problem with it. But they lie to their users and censor using vague rules.
They should be held to contract laws like Berenson. If rules are vague they are not enforceable. Make the rules explicit.
It's almost as if the federal judge doesn't thinks corporations don't have first amendment rights because corporations aren't people.
I wonder where they got that idea.
Of course they aren't people. It has been firmly established that when people willingly get together and work cooperatively, that they lose their rights, starting with their first amendment rights. Just like political parties.
(Hopefully, I don't need a /sarc for this one.)
State governments have always had the right to regulate the interactions between businesses and their customers. They can set price controls or have usury laws. They can and do have forced public accommodation laws. They can ban discrimination in employment based on whatever they see fit to be a protected category. Indeed, the state of California already bans businesses from discriminating on the basis of political opinions.
That is as old as the Republic itself. There was a lot of debate about whether the federal government had the power to do those things. They likely don't but the Supreme Court disagreed. No one, however, ever doubted the state has such power. If the state has the power to ban restaurants from discriminating on the basis of race, it sure as hell has the power to ban social media platforms from discriminating on the basis of politics.
If the state has the power to ban restaurants from discriminating on the basis of race, it sure as hell has the power to ban social media platforms from discriminating on the basis of politics.
The counterpoint to that, of course, is that they aren't discriminating against the person (although they clearly sometimes do), but the content.
And that is discriminating against the person. That is like saying "I am not discriminating against black customers, I am just discriminating against their money".
That argument buys into the fallacy that these platforms are content publishers. They are not. They are entertainment companies. They give you the ability to publish things and be entertained and in return you give them your information and access to you, which they sell to advertisers. The content has nothing to do with it. In a strictly business sense, Twitter couldn't care less what I publish on their platform as long as it isn't illegal or violating someone's copyright. All they care is that I am there and access to me available to be sold to advertisers.
If you don't believe that, consider this; this is no requirement to publish anything to have a social media account. You can have one and never publish a thing and just use it to view what other people say. If the companies were in the business of content providing and not selling access to you to advertisers, they would require users to publish some content in return for access to the platform.
This. California uses their State powers to impose all sorts of back door restrictions upon the rest of the nation through legislation.
That wasn't their ruling. Their ruling was these companies claim the content of the speech is the domain of users. If so, they don't have the 1a right they claim. They'd have to give up their 230 protections and admit they are publishers for that right.
The ruling is consistent.
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
NY Post: We're publishing a story based on Hunter Biden's laptop but no one is allowed to corroborate.
Twitter: We won't publish the Hunter Biden story to our news feed because no one was allowed to corroborate.
Wingnuts in unison: THATS CENSORSHIP!
The story was true. It was collaborated. They had the lap top and the guy whose store it was that Biden left it in.
There was a chain of custody and every reason to believe the lap top was what it appeared to be. And we know now that it was that. And social media suppressed the story in order to interfere with the election.
Fuck off Shreek. Really Fuck off you lying sack of shit.
You're stupid as shit.
Twitter has no obligation to allow spurious news items on their site. It was not "censorship" at all in the legal sense.
And "collaborated"? You are nearly illiterate.
So you are admitting they and the other social media companies interfered in the election by conspiring to suppress a truthful story.
Good to know dipshit.
Election interference: Randos posting memes on twitter.
A fully verified, well documented and sourced story on Hunter Biden's laptop and shady business dealings which included his father: bannable mean tweets.
"Twitter has no obligation to allow spurious news items on their site."
That's right, but I suspect it does so all the time. When it obviously starts defining "spurious" along political or ideological lines, people call foul play. The point made by an earlier commenter that people will always complain when it looks like their side or tribe is being discriminated against is exactly right. The social media platforms simply seem more willing to accommodate the big government, more left-wing tribes over others at this point. Since I don't use any of the social media platforms, I don't have a personal stake in their behavior. But I can understand why some people get upset when they show their true bias colors since they now have some much power to influence public opinion.
And they have every right to … get upset.
No libertarian would make the jump that your getting upset at a private company’s bias gives anyone the right to control that private company’s speech.
Libertarians don’t think contracts should be honored?
Cite?
Mike doesn’t understand contracts OR libertarians.
If I open a bank account, and don't pay a fee, can the bank cancel my account if it doesn't like my politics?
If I pay to run a truthful political ad on TV, and my opponent, a sitting governor, calls my ad racist can the station pull my ad?
According to reason, the TV station most certainly can pull your ad. And all of the social media platforms can ban your ad and ensure no one sees it.
This is what reason calls "Freedom of Speech".
There is a branch of libertarianism that only fights for principles against government. They will ignore other corrupt nexus of powers even when they collude with government.
They are generally cosplay libertarians.
No, they are generally progressives grabbing an angle to exert pressure toward leftist ends.
In short, these companies are being treated just like a baker.
Interesting comment. I side with the cake decorator not being forced to decorate a cake with images or words running against their beliefs.
That is fine if you argue against all public accommodation laws. Picking which public accommodations must comply and which are free to discriminate is unethical at best.
They can't have their cake and tell others not to blog about it too.
Nearly all "public accommodation" laws were instituted to undo long-standing traditions of racial or religious discrimination. In the vast majority of the country, such discrimination these laws were meant to counter, such discrimination is a thing of the past.
And I am unaware of any tradition which support the rights of one person to force another person to speak, or otherwise communicate, through written word or artistic creation, in support of something in which they don't believe.
Twitter literally calls itself "the town square" on its website. Texas says, "then we'll treat you like one." Reason cries "private company!" I call bullshit.
Public accommodation laws have been ruled Constitutional. It is unethical to argue that public accommodation laws are valid and against treating a company that calls itself "the town square" like it is actually in the town square.
Libertarian heuristic - minimise government involvement. S230 in effect does that.
What to do when liberties conflict?
Libertarian heuristic - resolve in the way that leads to the lowest government involvement. Because the common carrier law is a government infringement on liberty, S230, in exempting social media sites from it is ipso facto a lessening of infringement/involvement. Hence in this case, S230 and letting Twitter keep the Nazis out is lower government involvement than forcing Twitter to let the Nazis post.
But Twiitter acting as a defacto censorship arm of the government, something we know is happening is totally okay.
And Twitter and the rest of these companies would only keep out "Nazis". They would never censor people like scientists questioning the safety of a vaccine or business owners questioning the government's right to shut their business down. Nope. They can be trusted only to keep the "Nazis" out and would never work in concert to suppress dissent against the government or anything.
Are you really this fucking stupid?
Earlier you claimed - wrongly - that the barriers to entry were high. The libertarian approach would be to argue that if Twitter behaved like this by doing the government's bidding and enough people didn't like it, then another social media competitor could come along and draw away their membership.
And note - nobody is forced to use Twitter!
You lack reasoning power.
“… then another social media competitor could come along and draw away their membership.”
Which has happened. TRUTH Social is a clown of Twitter. Now, that clone seems to be failing because the entire site is designed to appeal to one American political demographic, while Twitter in contrast is international and is a place t discuss so many things besides politics: sports, celebrities, interesting videos, science and business, and so on.
If you’ve ever visited TRUTH Social, by the way, you’d know that it’s just lame. There is little discussion of anything, just Trump fuming about how he is being mistreated and people posting right-wing memes.
Truth social has spent tens of millions. Not exactly a low barrier to entry dumbass.
It's a very low barrier to entry, particularly when you look at the valuation of successful social media companies. And Truth Social didn't seem to have problems in raising funding.
You are wrong about barriers to entry. Especially when the major players collude. Your arguments are infantile. Ask parlor how cheap it is to compete.
You confuse barriers to entry with effective competition. If Parler couldn't attract enough people or didn't have appealing enough features, that's not due to a barrier to entry.
Now there is an economic principle called "increasing returns" which does explain why an inferior but early competitor can win (e.g., VHS v Betamax) but it's not enough to argue that when access to social media in general is available to all at zero cost.
letting Twitter keep the Nazis out is lower government involvement than forcing Twitter to let the Nazis post
That comment could potentially collapse in on itself and form a singularity from the sheer weight of all that irony.
The Nazis were the government and infamous for their near absolute control of the propaganda machine. Anyone being excluded from the public square is definitively not in the position the Nazis were.
This is what always happens when Marxists or those indoctrinated by Marxists enter the conversation. Communication is impossible when words lose their historical meaning.
Enough with your crass whingeing.
I know what those Nazis were. I also know what the current Nazis are, The latter - who are usually described as neo-Nazis - are not the government, happily.
And your reference to Marxists looks more like a brain short-circuit than anything adding value to this discussion.
BTW are you ignorant and stupid enough to think that I've been indoctrinated by Marxists or does your IQ exceed 70?
But you dont know what nazi gun laws are.
I do. Your comprehension sucks.
230 has allowed connected companies to grow bigger without theeat of customer lawsuits. Brittany murphys contract claims against Twitter were subsumed as falling under 230 and she wasn't even allowed to advance to trial.
230 is a protection for favored industry from government, not protecting companies from government.
Oldham continually focuses (incorrectly and incoherently) on the idea that editorial discretion is censorship.
Jesus Fuck. Imagine a (really just a jurinalist) tech/legal specialist saying "coherently":
The 1A protects you from government censorship but not from government editorial discretion.
These people continue to pretend to eat and like the same red herring several years after it's gone bad. I know it may come as a surprise to some people, but Schrödinger's Cat is dead. Every cat from 1935 is dead.
Basically, all the righties here don't like Twitter because it banned their Cheeto Jesus and so when some clowns at the 5th Circuit attempt to trample over 1A, they cheer with all the zeal and coherence of stoners at a brownie bake-off contest.
Pretty much.
Yes. Libertarians for censorship is the one true branch.
We're not in favour of government censorship. We're generally respectful of private property and businesses. Pragmatists among us recognise that this respect is not axiomatic.
You’re as much a libertarian as shrike is a capitalist.
Not at all. But I wouldn’t expect a couple of collectivist chucklefucks to understand anyones position outside your echo chambers.
Shrikes mask slips again.
Well, as I'm not shrike, as any fule kno, there is no mask to slip.
Shut up you fucking pedo. You are not fooling anyone
Ah, so you're another one stupid enough to think that I'm shrike. I didn't realise your stupidity was so broad.
Basically, all the righties here don't like Twitter because it banned their Cheeto Jesus
No, Twitter deserves to get fucked with because it protects the left while censoring the right, while hiding behind Section 230 to justify it.
If they want to provide a political party with that kind of support, then they shouldn't be surprised when the other side sticks their own repressive tolerance down their throat.
The ironic thing here is Scott Shackford, in this unhinged article, claiming the decision reads like a Twitter rant.
Anyway. There's a perfectly legitimate argument from libertarian principle against this Texas law. However, that argument would overturn vast swathes of American law, from the common law of common carriers, the PruneYard case upholding a California law allowing leafletting at a shopping mall, the Rumsfeld v. FAIR decision on Congress requiring military recruiters be allowed on private university campuses, and all anti-discrimination laws as applied to public accommodations.
Libertarian principle is not the law we have. The court in this decision explained in quite extensive detail what the law we actually have actually says, and how it leaves the social media platforms without a leg to stand on.
Good point. Consistent with precedent isn’t necessarily going to turn out to be consistent with libertarianism.
After reading the decision, though, have to agree with Shackford that the judge gets it wrong in his interpretation of Herald. The social media sites do exercise editorial control, and t matters not how often they do it.
What Shakford misses here, is that you won't find any social media company stating they censor political views, and the fact that the government is pressuring businesses to do so on its behalf as Zuckerberg admitted (when he should have published the government's request to censor, and refused). People signing up to use these services, don't expect their posts to be censored, and AFAIK it's not in their contract with users.
Shackford misses entirely what happens under the current laws, when government pressures companies to censor for them, while the social media company claims editorial discretion, but it's really government pressure to do politicians favors, but for only one party at this time. And because of political control of commerce and the ability of politicians to pick/make winners/losers in commerce (via legislation, regulations and the permit process) the companies do what is asked. Not cooperating will no doubt lead to a prosecutor looking for a crime to prosecute.
"and AFAIK it's not in their contract with users"
Go read the user agreements for Facebook, Twitter, etc. They clearly say the company can do whatever they want as far as not posting the user's posts, closing their accounts, etc. And it would be crazy if a company offering free-of-charge user accounts offered any other terms -- why would they.
"And because of political control of commerce and the ability of politicians to pick/make winners/losers in commerce (via legislation, regulations and the permit process) the companies do what is asked."
That isn't clear at all. As has been observed widely by conservatives, a lot of the social media companies' management and employees are liberal-leaning. Which means they may be complying completely voluntarily, enthusiastically. If so, it is their right to do so. This is a subtle point that is often glossed over in right-wing arguments about how unfair it all is.
I think that tech companies should be able to censor what speech they see fit, as they are a private entity, so long as they don’t discriminate against any legally protected classes of people. I do think they should not be protected from legal liability from those censorial powers, if those powers cause harm to people or the public. If the use of the power causes interference with the electoral process, there should be some form of punitive recourse. We’ve had 2 instances of that in recent times. Once in 2016 when, through the proliferation of fake news, the 2016 elections were swayed. The second time was in 2020 when, through excess caution, actual news stories about Hunter Biden’s laptop were blocked from being disseminated, even though the news source had verified the story. I think both instances can be put down to growing pains of new technology. However, both instances should not be repeated.
There are more disconcerting issues involving social media that, in my opinion are more pressing. One issue is the ways in which the AI, making heuristic judgements based on what a user views, tends to lead them down darker and more fringe rabbit holes of information. When you combine this with the adage that, “There’s a sucker born every minute”, you arrive with a population of people being variously radicalized toward extremist views in echo chambers. The first time this happened was probably an accident. But now tech moguls know that they can generally shape people to the narrative they want them to follow merely by the content they recommend based on their content consumption.
The other alarming issue is the change in dynamic when the government uses its position to intimidate, demand, or encourage the censoring of speech. If social media censors speech because the government pressured them to, then that is de facto chilling of speech by the government. That WOULD be a violation of first amendment rights.
"The second time was in 2020 when, through excess caution, actual news stories about Hunter Biden’s laptop were blocked from being disseminated, even though the news source had verified the story."
How can it be proven, objectively, that it had a significant effect on the election?
"The other alarming issue is the change in dynamic when the government uses its position to intimidate, demand, or encourage the censoring of speech. If social media censors speech because the government pressured them to, then that is de facto chilling of speech by the government. That WOULD be a violation of first amendment rights."
In this case, the social media company is the victim. The government's behavior is what is amiss, and should be corrected.
This is not rocket science.
What you say is your speech. That includes anything that you "edit" alter or suppress. This would make Google and Facebook liable for everything they allow to appear on their services. But that is not what those entities want nor what they insist is happening. They say it is your speech.
Which is fine, but if it really is your speech then they have no business censoring it.
if it really is your speech then they have no business censoring it.
But it is your speech on their platform. They're not the government. You don't own the platform, nor does the government. They do.
The “state” both keeps and enforces all the inalienable rights in the constitution. The word inalienable means rights that can’t be taken, sold or given away. We carry them with us.
First among them is free speech.
If anyone is invited to speak anywhere, censoring the content is a violation of the first amendment subject to persecution under the law.
Content moderation is a crime.
Corrupt people NEED to censor the truth that exposes and threatens them. Whether they are government or not is irrelevant.
While making the exposure of conspiracy a crime is unique to government, the exploitation of that violation of our rights isn’t.
Sorry, you're way off base. The platforms are trying to have it both ways - they claim to be Platforms and want sec 230 protection AND they want to act as Publishers. No. They need to pick one or the other.