Joe Biden Is Coming for Your Gas Furnace
A new proposed regulation from the Department of Energy would effectively require homeowners to shift to more expensive, more efficient condensing gas furnaces.

President Joe Biden continues his tightening of appliance regulations with new standards that will require homeowners to install more energy-efficient gas furnaces.
The new proposed rule, announced by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) yesterday, would require that gas-burning residential furnaces achieve 95 percent energy efficiency by 2029. The stated goal is to lower consumers' energy bills in the long run and limit harmful emissions.
"By updating energy standards for many carbon-emitting appliances, such as home furnaces, the Biden Administration is working to save consumers money," said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm in a Monday press release. The new standards will allegedly save Americans $30 billion over 30 years.
Critics of the new rule say that consumers already have the option of purchasing more energy-efficient gas furnaces. The fact that they don't suggests it's not cost-effective for them.
"The only thing these standards do is force the ultraefficient choice on everyone, even though one size does not fit all," says Ben Lieberman, a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. "These efficiency standards tend to raise the upfront costs of an appliance, and you may or may not earn it back in energy savings."
The DOE press release says that homeowners would be able to meet their proposed energy efficiency standards by installing condensing gas furnaces, which reuse gas and water vapor that normal noncondensing furnaces vent into the atmosphere.
The flip side is that condensing furnaces require more parts to capture that otherwise wasted gas. They also require special ventilation systems. Both factors increase the upfront costs of these systems.
The American Gas Association, in a 2017 public comment opposing a similar rule proposed by the Obama administration, says that the purchase price of condensing furnaces is $350 higher than an average noncondensing furnace and that condensing models cost between $1,500 and $2,200 to install.
The Obama-era proposal, which would have required gas furnaces to be at least 92 percent energy efficient, was never implemented. One of the Trump administration's last moves was a January 2021 rule that required any energy efficiency standards for furnaces to keep noncondensing furnaces on the market.
The DOE's proposed 95 percent efficiency standard for gas furnaces would effectively reverse that policy.
It's the latest movement in the White House's campaign to re-regulate American appliances. Since coming into office, the Biden administration has also revived Obama-era rules restricting free-flowing showerheads and quick-washing dishwashers in the name of energy efficiency.
Former President Donald Trump's DOE had peeled back these rules, citing the damage they did to consumer choice and, in the case of showerheads, his hair.
Residential gas appliances have become increasingly controversial. Jurisdictions across the country, from New York City to Berkeley, have banned gas hookups in new construction in recent years on the reasoning that the direct consumer burning of natural gas worsens climate change.
Lieberman speculates that the Biden administration's latest proposed rules are a backdoor attempt to shift the whole country to electric furnaces. While electric furnaces are more expensive than noncondensing gas furnaces, they're cheaper than condensing gas furnaces. Faced with the choice, many homeowners would likely opt for an electric furnace over a condensing gas furnace, says Lieberman.
He also questions the climate change benefits of shifting people to electric appliances, noting that the electricity that powers them is often generated by burning natural gas anyway.
"These federal efficiency standards are a solution in search of a problem," he tells Reason.
Rent Free is a weekly newsletter from Christian Britschgi on urbanism and the fight for less regulation, more housing, more property rights, and more freedom in America's cities.
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FJB
FJB!
I don't like the cut of your JB.
Ha!
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Joe must GO! And the sooner the better.
This from the efficiency expert that ships baby formula in C-17s.
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You really shouldn't be so crude. I typed those initials at the end of a post at Power Line blog and was immediately banned forever. I've learned that those that disagree with the Biden administration should take the "high road" which apparently means not criticizing him by typing the letters "FJB".
Of course, two days later in their "This Week in Pictures" edition, there was a meme that showed high gas prices with the FJB on the gas pumps. But, that's different.
Principled GOP members apparently do not sink to such low-brow behavior. It's best to just let "Joe be Joe" and destroy our nation without any words of criticism. That's what the GOP does best. All in the name of "bipartisanship" of course.
I’m bipartisan. In the sense that I would like to reduce the influence of the Marxist democrat party to zero, expatriate, imprison, or execute its leadership and backers, and generally wipe out Marxism in the US.
Libertarians believe in freedom though. They think the left should be able to impose as much pain on the nation, and especially conservatives, as possible. All in the name of "freedom" of course.
Libertarians believe in freedom (and responsibility) for individuals, not governments. Wussy conservatives (think: Charlie Baker) seem to be willing to let the left do whatever they want, but that is not libertarian, it's just stupid.
Please don't paint libertarians as dreamy-eyed fools, that ain't what the word means.
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>>>>http://jddm.2.vu/1
You’re confusing libertarians with Reason writers.
There is no forbidden knowledge in Libertopia, only forbidden practices.
I believe in fighting back against a Marxist insurgency that seeks to kill or enslave me and the rest of America. Democrats are free to unconditionally surrender at any time.
In any event, the democrat party no longer has a right to exist.
LGB?
Factio Democratica delenda est
Another dead language bites the subjunctive dust.
Join Az,
I agree
The Democrats must be destroyed
Ex Azrica semper aliquid dodo
Joe Biden Is Coming for Your Gas Furnace
"From my toasty warm dead hands."
"These efficiency standards tend to raise the upfront costs of an appliance, and you may or may not earn it back in energy savings."
Our baby has a fever! Quick everyone upgrade to newer high-efficiency furnaces to help... uh... bring the fever down!
Only Reason offers readers a choice between thermodynamic efficiency advice from the American Competitive Institute and the American Petroleum Institute.
That got a laugh!
Joe Biden already came, in the shower. His daughter wrote about this in her diary as she was present. She was ten at the time. Although she did not state whether he did so inside or outside of her body.
I’ll leave it at that. I don’t want to inadvertently write erotic democrat pedophile fan fiction for Buttplug.
"The new standards will allegedly save Americans $30 billion over 30 years"
OK, that's $1 billion per year.
There are about 130 million households in the United States.
So that works out to a savings of $7.69 per household per year.
"the purchase price of condensing furnaces is $350 higher than an average noncondensing furnace"
If that's accurate consumers would only recoup the difference in the *purchase price* after about 45 years. That's not counting potentially higher installation and maintenance costs. And it assumes the new furnaces will function for more than 45 years, and I doubt that they will.
I made this account just to point out how absurd the math is on this.
It also assumes the cost of enforcement is effectively zero. But, as indicated in the later paragraphs, this isn't about enforcement, it's about thumbing the scales in favor of "One good Nor'easter, even in TX, and you're fooked. Human popsicle, aye." electric heating.
And finally, the underlying environmental concern doesn't seem to take into account the additional material cost of construction of the new stoves which is likely higher than other stoves.
No, that's covered by the higher sale price.
It's amazing how simple prices are, how easy they make comparing apples and oranges.
It is taken account for by the dollar cost, I agree.
I'm saying that environmental calculations, at least many that I've seen that push these type of regulations, look at the efficiency of the device once produced rather than the cost of production + the cost of running the device.
Electric cars and solar panels being the two places I've seen this the most.
I see now that I skipped over that part of what you wrote. Yes, greenies love distorting figures. For instance, they always brag about the installed solar and wind capacity, neglecting to mention that darkness and windless periods drop those rated capacities down to around 20% for solar and 30% for wind, more or less. They ignore government subsidies and taxes when comparing prices, ignore the cost of regulations, etc etc etc.
Be fair. For zealots, "numbers" are derived from and for righteous feelings. Actual measurements and math are racist.
Sales prices measure manufacturing costs plus profit, not environmental impact.
The math on all supposed Green legislation is fucked because it's about virtue signaling rather than achieving any goals.
And lies.
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff, Saikat Chakrabarti, made the revealing admission in a meeting with Democratic Washington Gov. Jay Inslee’s climate director in May. A Washington Post reporter accompanied Chakrabarti to the meeting for a magazine profile published Wednesday: “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal, is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all...Do you guys think of it as a climate thing? Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing,” he added.
(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): "Basically it’s a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War... First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
Christiana Figueres, leader of the U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change: “This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history.”
Former U.S. Senator Timothy Wirth (D-CO), then representing the Clinton-Gore administration as U.S undersecretary of state for global issues, addressing the same Rio Climate Summit audience, agreed: “We have got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic policy and environmental policy.”
Christine Stewart, former Canadian Environment Minister: “No matter if the science is all phoney, there are collateral environmental benefits.... climate change [provides] the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
Well, burner_account is a REASONable tag to have here anyway.
The Expected Useful Life of a gas furnace, according to the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), is 20 years.
For a $2500 annual heating bill, every efficiency point is worth $25, so the move up from 90 to 95% for a new house condensing system should pay off the $350 capex increment in a few years, and the installation cost in a decade.
Let the market speak.
My annual home heating bill is less than half that. Closer to 1/3 Now what? That includes a gas range and water heater.
And some homes cost more tha twice the norm: Electric bills reflect the number of heating and cooling degree days in a given year and vary enormously with latitude and altitude.
My total electric bill is $1800. And I love in a desert - lot's of AC required for half the year - and the house is all electric and on a well with an electric pump.
Also, the market has already spoken and hardly anyone's buying - hence why Biden feels the need to step on the corner of the scale.
There is also the issue that the condensed vapor from the furnace is somewhat acidic (Coca-Cola level of pH), which cannot be directly dumped into the sewer system and requires a neutralization treatment.
I can’t pour Coca Cola down the drain?
That involves plumbing issues with older pipes that may expose lead or corrode iron but that's probably only a thing in third world countries, right?
And Flint, MI.
And hundreds of other cities.
Only sissies drink unleaded Coke.
Where I live, even after passing through a condensate neutralizer, you're generally not allowed to discharge the condensate into the sanitary sewer or onto the ground (as that would apparently be an "indirect connection" to the storm sewers) w/o special dispensation. Instead, you generally have to discharge it to a >=8 cubic foot dry well filled with gravel and topped it with a waterproof cover (such as concrete or plastic). IIRC, that well has to be at least three feet from any structure or he property line.
I assume this is because the local building code gods know that most people don't know they have a condensate neutralizer let alone inspect it and replace (at least) the media when depleted.
(Although, I'm sure all readers here do insure that their condensate neutralizer(s) are inspected and maintained regularly.)
A new furnace will not last anywhere near 45 years. Maybe half of that. Although I’m sure there will be outliers on both directions.
These new high efficiency furnaces last maybe 12 years.
That’s it? That isn’t very efficient on the pocketbook at today’s prices.
Amateur. Phil Murphy wants to outlaw gas heat entirely.
Fuck Phil Murphy.
Lieberman speculates that the Biden administration's latest proposed rules are a backdoor attempt to shift the whole country to electric furnaces. While electric furnaces are more expensive than noncondensing gas furnaces, they're cheaper than condensing gas furnaces. Faced with the choice, many homeowners would likely opt for an electric furnace over a condensing gas furnace, says Lieberman.
Remember, the unquestioned popularity of EVs, even without subsidies, is a purely organic market signal and should not be questioned.
Where do the watermelons think the electricity comes from for all of these devices and cars?
Cue Mythbusters inserting thousands of copper and zinc strips into a Tesla load of watermelons
They’re the same people that think food comes from the grocery store.
I am confused, would this rule apply if you purchase and install a new heater or would you have to change out your existing heater?
My understanding is that (e.g.) Carrier wouldn't be able to sell you a <95% efficient gas heater after 2029.
Remember when Trump and Pence were bastards for incentivizing Carrier to keep manufacturing North of the border? Well, the adults are back in charge.
These rules usually apply to new installs or heater replacements, but not on your existing heater as-is.
Of course with this administration, who knows.
Power police. Furnace fusiliers. Gas gestapo.
Gastapo.
Home Heating Hegemony.
Energy enforcement squads.
In the interests of efficiency, that will be "Energy and Firearms Enforcement Squads" that will be inspecting your home annually.
Although it may not save the government much money because the Energy Enforcement Agents' Union and the Firearms Enforcement Agents' Union both jealously guard their turf so there will be two agents on every inspection. It will however be slightly more convenient for the residents as they will only be gang raped once a year instead of being "solo raped" twice a year.
Considering that non-carbon emitting sources (aside from evil nuclear) only fill around 10% of energy demand, there’s gonna be a lot of cold people if we go totally electric.
Considering what happened in TX last year with nuclear, there's gonna be progressively fewer and fewer cold people if we go totally electric.
I'm guessing they've forgotten wood stoves exist. Wood is my primary heat source.
That's interesting. My uncle is like that out in western Washington. Doesn't get too cold most of the time, and so just has a wood stove in the middle of his living room so he can avoid the electricity cost.
I am surrounded by nat'l forest, so wood is plentiful. Putting up wood is a lot of work.
I'm surrounded by state and regional parks.
If I touch the trees in the parks, they'll shoot me.
Yes, leave them alone.
Leaf them alone*
Heating with wood warms you twice. Once when you cut it and once when you burn it.
I thought it was 3 times. When you cut it, when you split it, and when you burn it.
Wood is my primary heat source.
Until today that was true for me, as well, but it's a problem because the Bay Area Air Quality Management District has actually made it illegal to have fires on certain days, and the fine is around $1,500.
They're particularly fond of declaring no-burn days when it's especially cold.
Even for wood burning stoves and fireplaces?
Yes. There may be some exceptions for houses built long ago whose only heat source is wood stoves.
I believe they have also mandated catalytic converters on wood stoves.
There may be some exceptions for houses built long ago whose only heat source is wood stoves.
Yes - you can apply for an exemption if your house has no other source of heat whatsoever, but IIRC it's only temporary and you need to "correct" your lack of a powered unit within a year.
My house was built in 1954, and still technically has its original furnace (or did as of about half an hour ago - I'm having some work done today), so I don't qualify even though the furnace doesn't work.
Those overpriced public utilities can't make the racially just climate revolution happen if you keep burning cheap wood outside their control.
Even for wood burning stoves and fireplaces?
Yup. The wood-burning stoves being the dumbest ones to include, as the modern ones reburn a lot of smoke and are insanely efficient, but local ordinances make no distinctions.
Wood stoves and wood fires are heavily regulated and even illegal in parts of the country.
Rolling blackouts in winter and rolling blackouts in summer. Sounds like the perfect solution to reduce populations nearly all year around.
"A new proposed regulation from the Department of Energy would effectively require homeowners to shift to more expensive, more efficient condensing gas furnaces."
As I've been pointing out for years, the modern Democratic Party's base is Wall Street, Silicon Valley, multimillionaire entertainers, and billionaires. IOW the type of people who could easily afford this. (And afford more expensive gasoline and groceries if those things were real, which Reason's leading economics expert assures me they aren't.)
#OBLsFirstLaw
A little harmless nudge.
Christ, what an asshole.
The stated goal is to lower consumers' energy bills in the long run and limit harmful emissions.
How about you worry about your own bills, federal government. Fuck you.
https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1536743537932488705?t=2T9J8lvSxn29UJq8YCaswQ&s=19
How is this going?
Democratic House Budget Chairman John Yarmuth:
"We don't have to balance our checkbook. We are like the banker in monopoly. We create the money and hand out the money. Everybody else plays the game with it."
[Video]
You could have linked me anything over the last 40 years or so and I would have the same response of, "Not good."
How about you worry about your own bills, federal government. Fuck you.
Especially given that $30B in 30 yrs. isn't even pocket change. Push the order for *half* of an F-35 back 30 yrs.
I had a prof in grad school all about energy efficient bs. He listed the saving for a energy efficient water heater, furnace, and something else. Proceeded to show that it makes money back after 20 years. He got really pissed when I pointed out that he is not including instalation cost (bot the energy efficient models he picked were twice the instalation price) and that the life expectancies of them wer 15 years and 10 years, so only an idiot would think it saves money
I'll bet you did get pissed, you fact based bastard!
You need a better grad school.
For a $2500 annual heating bill, every efficiency point is worth $25, so the move up from 90 to 95% for a new house condensing system should pay off the $350 capex increment in a few years, the installation cost in a decade, and yield a profit sufficient to replace itself if it lasts as long as advertised.
Let the market speak.
Who has a $2500 annual heating bill? In a huge old house in northern Michigan, my gas bill (covering the furnace, water heater, clothes dryer, and kitchen range) never reached $250/month even in midwinter, and was much less most of the year. Are we talking about Al Gore's mansion, assuming he leaves the windows open with the heat on?
IMHO, a smarter student would know to not deflate the prof's balloon with such facts. Also, the point of the article isn't what are the best home furnaces, or whether energy efficiency is the metric buyers should use. The main point of the article (Reason is a libertarian magazine, or at least used to be, I'm not quite sure anymore) is whether consumers get to choose what they want and the market will provide, or the government limits both consumers' and manufacturers' choices.
The other point is that Obama/Biden want to limit our choices and have done so, while Trump has expanded consumer choice.
Which brings me to my favorite definition of a libertarian: libertarians want you to have more choices, whether you want it or not.
I thought we were getting rid of gas - - - - - - - - -
Promises made, promises kept.
Read the democrat party platform.
I read part of the Dem party platform, titled "BUILDING A STRONGER, FAIRER ECONOMY". First it starts out with a bunch of lies about Trump (which isn't a party platform). It states:
Democrats believe that it is a moral and an economic imperative that we support working families by rebuilding the American middle class for the 21st century, making sure this time that everyone can make it and thrive, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability status, national origin, age, or ZIP code.
That must be the reason Biden is shutting down fossil fuel production and usage, driving gasoline prices to daily all-time highs, creating the highest inflation in 40 years, and raising taxes. Further, everything's great, all the problems are Putin's fault, and the Biden administration can't do anything about these problems anyway, according to the Biden administration. Meanwhile, Biden wants to attack inflation with even higher spending. Biden says he's doing everything in his power to lower gas prices, while his Sec. of Energy says she and the federal government don't control gas prices.
It all makes sense if you're suffering from dementia and fall for the party propaganda. The D party platform is a contradiction of itself. But I'd bet the Democrats will deliver what they've delivered in the past 60 years: more government, no positive results on any problems, no promises kept without breaking others and no truth.
How else do you explain Biden thinking the solution to inflation is more government spending?
Elections have consequences, but Reason had to get rid of mean tweets.
If you can afford an electric car, you can afford these heaters.
(of course, there will be no gas in the future)
Many people, especially those in smaller homes, will switch to space heaters resulting in more fires and more deaths. Just collateral damage for Leviathan.
Like the one that killed 20 people in NYC last year? The first news reports did say that it was caused by an ELECTRIC space heater, but then quickly corrected to merely “a space heater”. Hmmm-wonder why?
So let me get this str8. Mumblemouth add his misfits are doing this so we save money? When (if) we have 100% compliance, they will charge tax on usage to compensate for the savings. FJBA. Administration. And all libs.
So let me get this str8. Mumblemouth and his misfits are doing this so we save money? When (if) we have 100% compliance, they will charge tax on usage to compensate for the savings. FJBA. (Administration) And all libs.
In summary, Trump deregulated the furnace market giving consumers more choice (including Trump per Britschgi, for his hair) while Obama and Biden are regulating them giving consumers fewer choices, higher costs, and a great opportunity for those who know what's in the new regulations to place bets in the stock market.
As a libertarian, I'd rather have more choices which is more freedom.
How can "pro choice" Denicrats call themselves "pro-choice" when they support things like this?
dems are not pro-choice - they are pro-control...
"Pro choice" as long as it's the choice they tell you to make.
now you're catching on!
Don't you speak Democrat? "Choice" translates as unrestricted, state-funded abortion.
They are anti people pro baby killing
Because "pro choice" doesn't, in fact, mean what you might tend to think it means. When the left speaks, they use words to mean completely different things than long-accepted definitions might dictate. They're like Humpty Dumpty.
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
Because to Democrats, the meaning of a word in this sentence is unrelated to the meaning of the same word in a different sentence. How else can they destroy everyone's ability to think to the point that leftism isn't obvious nonsense?
No one needs 27 different kinds of furnaces.
Or one different kinds of furnaces.
Yeah, but if my choice is more freedom & more deregulated choice or mean tweets, you know which this commenter is choosing.
Gas heating in homes is objectively bad. You are putting an explosive gas into your house, you risk CO2 poisoning, and the soot is damaging to your lungs and leads to respiratory issues.
Get rid of them.
WTH are you blabbering about? The burnt fumes and CO2 go out the flue - not into the house!!
The burnt fumes and CO2 go out the flue - not into the house!!
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about MollyGodiva's house that aren't supported by the facts.
that would explain the cognitive dissidence. My mistake!
would explain some things about Molly ...
Her symptoms are classic carbon monoxide poisoning. Maybe she should have her muffler checked out.
It's a retard that uses lower quartile understanding of 3rd grade science (as taught by an English major).
Gas heating in homes is objectively bad.
No, it isn't. As with all things there are tradeoffs.
You are putting an explosive gas into your house
Yup. Other places use stuff called fuel oil - maybe you've heard of it? Pretty nasty stuff, actually.
you risk CO2 poisoning
Are you thinking of CO? CO2 is not poisonous. And this is a side effect of burning flammable things, not just gas.
the soot is damaging to your lungs and leads to respiratory issues
Soot? From gas?
You probably shouldn't be expressing an opinion on this topic.
Plus CO detectors are mandatory now.
To be fair, she shouldn’t be expressing an opinion on any topic, but the brave girl just can’t help herself.
Lizzie Warren ate Molly’s brain a long time ago
Maybe Molly IS Liawatha?
There is & has been a trend among a swath of left-leaning folks to expose their ignorance -a lifetime of repeating the same ignorant bs among their in-group where everyone nods and agrees.
Are you not aware how dangerous electricity is?
All energy sources can kill you if are not careful.
I can't figure out whether you really are this stupid or whether this is just a feeble attempt at trolling.
It can always be both.
With Molly, it's almost always both.
The former, based on its history.
You're really Joe Biden, aren't you?
That's like saying electric cars are objectively bad because you're driving a thermite grenade around.
Wait, bad example. Never mind, carry on.
?????
Maybe you'd like a nice wood stove. Very romantic, very idyllic. Believe me, I know! Nothing like getting up to a cold house, spending the first 15 minutes building the fire back up, then waiting about an hour until you no longer see your breath. And, oh joy of joys! You get to do it all again when you get home from work! Seven days a week, six or eight months each year. It's great, ain't it Sarc?
Seriously, I did enjoy it, but then, I enjoy growing my own food too. Most people don't, and I would not wish it on them any more than I hope they don't wish that I had to live in a godcursed city.
Gas is good! Best furnace I ever had, and the cheapest!
No she obviously wants Electric, which is incredibly inefficient and expensive during the winter. I used to work in a warranty shop, and nothing was more fun than a cold snap in the south. You'd get constant calls from people, whose heat pumps switched over to (electric) heat strips as the temperature dropped too far. This then skyrocketed their electric bill.
Heat Pumps are reasonably efficient (not as efficient as a furnace), but as soon as you get below 40ish degrees they become less energy efficient, and at around 25 - 30 degrees they suffer from freezing coils and just not having enough heat to bring inside. At that point, every house in your city switches to toaster heating- running electricity through resistive strips of metal/ceramics in a terribly in-efficient method of heating. As this happens, you are essentially doubling the electricity consumption of every house in the neighborhood in the middle of the night when renewable energy is generally not available.
Found the greentard.
-jcr
You get really upset if people don’t think of you as the dumbest poster here, don’t you?
This is top tier stupidity. The part about soot, amazing how you are as ignorant on the topic of gas heaters as every other topic upon which you weigh in. If you presented your argument as 'in my opinion' and then provided facts, not silly bullshit based on irrational fear of worst -case scenarios that are highly unlikely to occur, you might come across as more than a emotional dimwit.
Maybe and electric furnace might be cheaper to run in Idaho or Wyoming, but in Taxachusetts (home to the most expen$ive power in the lower 48), I'd place long odds against it, especially with the nutjobs pushing for ever higher (more expensive) "green" power.
Let's go Brandon!
And what we're finding in CA is that the "green" power doesn't cut it (surprise, surprise).
We spent last summer operating our fossil fuel plants in overdrive in violation of not only our own but also of Federal air quality standards (Newsance was granted an exemption by Biden's EPA) so that we would have rolling blackouts in the runup to the recall election.
And this was without having forced everybody to convert to electric everything.
"The Grid will be Green by 2025, we swear!"
*wouldn't have rolling blackouts
In the UK, green sources are able to provide about 25% of energy at best. The rest is gas and nuclear.
The good news is, a lot of 'green' power initiatives in California are greenwashed. So you're still getting reliable energy, but at three times the cost. Win-win-win...win... win... win?
I have to confess that I am, in fact, getting a little tired of winning.
I thought of including that minor point (green power is unreliable) but wanted to stick to the main issue with Biteme's people's fantasies: it will NOT be cheaper.
The good news here in MA is that we're going to have a nice new power line going through Sarcasmic's back yard, bringing us nice clean Canadian hydro power in a few years - at a hideous cost to us and the north woods. And, oh yeah, the power MA will be getting had been going to NY, PA and OH, but we've been told that it's good for us to be paying more for it, so, laugh, laugh, laugh - there will be NO new power generated, just fools in MA having their consciences soothed that they are doing their part, while NY etc now will have to start burning cheap PA fraked gas and feeling oh so guilty.
Send me the cheap PA fraked gas, I won't feel guilty, and I'll appreciate not paying 32 cents per kwhr (my average for the past few bills).
Let's go Brandon, and Charlie Baker is a RINO's RINO.
Wonder how long the people of Mass will continue to take it in the butt from the progs they elect. Maybe once they’ve banned all heating sources except electric and enough people freeze to death or have to burn their furniture to keep warm they’ll wake up.
The ones I'm thinking of will keep on voting for Warren and Markey and Obama etc. Obviously (they say), it just didn't work "this time".
Don't forget "less reliable" as well.
I heard a talk from an urban planner from the Southern Tier of NYS. Their "Green New Deal" plan wants to eliminate fossil fuels and replace gas heating with heat pumps. When it was suggested that heat pumps don't work all the well at Winter design temperatures in the area he said then you need to buy a cold tolerant model despite being higher cost, but a natural gas furnace, even if only as backup would be not allowed. They want everything electric. He said this could be done due to NYS electricity sources being mostly hydro and nuclear. He then expressed that nuclear power was distasteful.
They do not really like anything.
*they* like to be warm in winter. *they* do not give afuq about any of us.
Natural gas is one of the most efficient forms of energy transfer in the world right now. The only way it is more efficient to use electricity is to make Natural Gas more expensive...something that our Team Blue has been relentlessly doing for the past 30 years.
I’ve heard they are trying to ban wood stoves and fireplaces in NYS too because the wood smoke from upstate kills bipoc people in the Bronx, or something like that.
Over the last decade, hundreds of women and children, an people of other genders and assignments, have been seriously made ill, and even died, from faulty furnaces. If we are to stop this menace, I call for Red Flag laws and Mandatory Furnace Operation Training before anyone is allowed to install or operate a furnace. No mentally disturbed persons should be allowed near a furnace, nor should anyone without a union-apprentice certification and government license be allowed to set a thermostat. {Note: my suggestions for Pool and Bathtub Control are in draft stage, so look for them in the near future.}
/s/ Chad and Karen
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1536795183639035905?t=bh1kYuhWRN45trK12xuD7Q&s=19
JUST IN - Biden admin announces the release of another 45 million barrels of crude oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
Yeah, but that was just for Obama's summer home.
You mean the palace at about 10 ft above sea level, guess this sea level rise is a really big problem.
Member when they told trump he was stupid for wanting to build up the reserve when the wuflu hit? Rev kuck members
I member!
Google says it's about 18-20 million used a a day in the us so two days worth? Sweet.
Or they could force you to all electric appliances like California wants to, even though pretty much everyone prefers gas stoves and gas water heaters.
Good luck staying warm or cooking or taking a shower when the power goes out.
It’s California, who needs a shower anyway? Or to keep warm, or too cook when you can have raw vegetables and sushi.
Joe Biden Is Coming
They told him some people were stopping by that were pro-state and he got all excited for his exam.
"Faced with the choice, many homeowners would likely opt for an electric furnace over a condensing gas furnace, says Lieberman."
That will depend entirely on their math skills and their heating requirements. Electric heat makes heating oil at $4/gal. look cheap in cold climates. Sure, it might work in SoCal but gas is still cheaper. Of course in SoCal they might just opt to turn on all the cooktop burners and rig a fan to blow through the oven - the electric oven, of course.
It can all run off your solar panels or $900,000 solar roof.
You semi joke on that price but I just had a buddy install solar for 30k - asked him when he was getting his investment back from savings 15 -20 years (with the tax subsidy included) I then asked is there maintenance any extra upkeep the related parts need and what is the life of this? He could only say "this is happening we are changing"
Joe Biden and seventeen Noble Laureate economists have already promised to save me money by lowering inflation....
I'll pass on this go round, thank you.
Climate primitives should move into caves and do without electricity and other modern conveniences. They could live off the land and grow their own vegetables for food. They could also fish, not for food, but to obtain something to sacrifice to the climate gods each day. They could fly their rainbow and blm flags outside their cave as a sign of their dedication to diversity and to let other cave-dwellers know that "this home believes bullshit" and is safe to enter.
If they would do that then the rest of us could continue to live and prosper without their constant nagging and virtue signaling. This would be a great way for them to "own the cons" and everyone would be much happier!
I would be happy to start with a requirement that anyone who votes green gets a smart meter that shuts off their home or business as soon as the grid supply drops below optimum.
I like that one! Very nice, hits them where it hurts.
Problem is, they're too fixated to not see the problem even if it hurts them personally.
Let's go Brandon!
Do landfills count as caves?
As compared to the 90% efficiency of normal gas furnaces, those 95% furnaces need new exhaust ducting run, which costs more than the furnace does, need much more frequent maintenance, and last half as long.
Of course, they do put money in the pockets of the companies who have bought the environmental agencies.
Think low-flow toilets, shower heads, or incandescent light bulbs.
“So Let It Be Written, So Let It Be Done”
My home has 3 wall heaters, not a furnace. This isn't untypical of older homes or manufactured homes. I'm guessing these will become obsolete and I'd have to pay to have a furnace installed and ductwork. I'd be looking at a 7 to $10k system.
Depending on where you are, there are numerous potential solutions here. Split system heat pumps, including mini-split systems (or ductless split systems) are often a good alternative in your case. Again, depends on the dynamics of your area.
"Biden, you magnificent sonofabitch! I read your website!"
Residential gas appliances have become increasingly controversial. Jurisdictions across the country, from New York City to Berkeley, have banned gas hookups in new construction in recent years on the reasoning that the direct consumer burning of natural gas worsens climate change.
The goal is human misery.
The reason can't be reducing climate change, since they shut down the nuclear power plants and heating with electricity generated from natural gas burns nearly three times as much gas and emits nearly three times as much CO2.
And once again Britches beclowns himself when he discovers that the guy he campaigned for does... exactly what he said would do. Bravo Britches! Bravo!
Venting a CF is actually easier than a regular furnace. The gases are so cool you can use basic pvc pipe. They also cost more because there's two heat exchangers. Condensing furnaces are great mandating them is pure evil.
Mandating anything other than personal responsibility is evil.
https://twitter.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status/1536882960250683395?t=mqlbQAIuKU92BXyc5C4tbw&s=19
I disagree with the Climate Czar on this one: we absolutely must drill for more oil and gas.
Relying on foreign oil imports while pretending to use wind & solar is not a feasible strategy.
Biden Climate Czar John Kerry: “We absolutely don’t” need to drill for more oil and gas.
[Video]
It’s all treason. Democrat treason.
Reason/Cato hardest hit
https://twitter.com/ElectionWiz/status/1536898268768178176?t=dLEsFiBV9GiWFJaA-bukKA&s=19
RACE CALL: Mayra Flores (R) is projected to win tonight's special election in south Texas, flipping an 84% Hispanic district to the GOP. The district voted Biden +13 in 2020.
“Voted” Biden by +13.
I fart in Joe Biden’s general direction
Commerce Clause!
What is missing from the article is the *mechanism by which Biden will force people to change furnaces'.
If it's ',new construction's, well, I don't agree with it but that's not homeowners *being forced* - that's the home construction company - very few homes are commissioned by their first owner.
And it would still have no effect on already built housing - no one is coming to take my furnace. If my house had a furnace, that is.
Reason's Writers Endorsed and Supported Joe Biden Is Coming for Your Gas Furnace
FJB
FR.com
I just replaced my home's furnace and AC system with a new more efficient system. I paid more for the efficiency and will likely never recover all the extra, but I wanted efficiency. I also found that there is a wide range in prices in the furnace market, even though there is limited manufacturing and many different lines are made by the same company. So while I paid more, my time spent researching the system gave me a better price than I might have gotten for a less efficient system.
BTW - the former Trump Administration did plenty of regulating. The environmental regulations dropped were likely made up for in trade restrictions, so I don't feel like I have lost anything with the Biden Administration.
How is not recouping your money more efficient? I guess I'm confused on what you want if it's not monetary savings?
I wanted a smaller carbon foot-print. People make decisions everyday on things they want that cost more but have value to them.
Good for you, and many of us might want to joint you in that goal, but don't assume that gives you the authority to tell the rest of us what to do, what to buy, how to live, etc.
If it's in the public interest and both compelling and reaching the danger zone, we sure as hell will tell you what to do and any society worth saving will do that.
Fuck off, slaver.
How do you feel about military conscription in time of war?
So you did this as part of your adherence to your climate religion.
I suspect it didn't do much in the way of 'research.' What, for instance, are the expected life cycles of the new furnace and A/C, cost/benefit versus keeping the units that were in, or buying a less 'efficient' model that will work for years longer? It seems more like the typical bs from m4e, false assertion, trump-bashing, narrative pumping.
… so I don't feel like I have lost anything with the Biden Administration
What’s it like to have nothing to lose?
Freedom as defined by Janis Joplin.
You’ve lost freedom. Your party is working towards totalitarianism.
Gee, I hope it works out like Congress with incandescent light bulbs.
Due to their creating the market and demand, LED bulbs went from $20 a pop to $2 and are now the default bulbs.
Can private businesses create the technology of the future? Yes. Can they create demand that makes them competitive to produce. No. Thanks big government!
Many would wish it was not this way, but government is a big driver of demand that moves the people forward.
It's not the job of government to "move the people forward".
The job of the federal government is to protect our borders from assault and invasion, and provide a (very limited) handful of standards to keep things working easily within the country.
We disagree, but that's what voting is about.
No faggot, it’s in the constitution. You disagree with the rule of law.
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. "
Oh yeah, I missed one beyond those that are flavors of what I mentioned or enforcing same ...... protecting intellectual property (patents and copyrights). Everything else is just about protecting the country or keeping things working (coin money, post office, post roads).
To the extent that that list has been exceeded in practice, the Congress, President and SCOTUS have been sleeping while the fox raids the hen-house.
You can drive a truck through that and this and the SC has upheld these powers.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
and
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Yet none of that covers furnaces. You should go away. This is too confusing for you.
Can you name a country on the earth where the government is so limited? From the very start governments provided more services than you have suggested.
Not the federal government. I get that you don’t really understand any of this. You and your fellow travelers should step aside. You have no business making any decisions.
Why even have a written constitution if you're not going to abide by it?
Take it to court. Whoops, i guess that has already happened.
It’s nice of you to show everyone what a complete piece of hair you are by making the same argument the slave owning Democrats did.
It will be taken to the streets if your kind keep pushing. That won’t go well for you.
California is already outlawing gas in homes before you could get anything back on a new furnace. crazy since california can't produce enough electricity now and won't be able to in time by 2035 when all new gas cars outlawed. we will be a third world state
They’ll try and take it from Oregon and Washington. California is one gigantic Marxist parasite.
Knock, Knock the Nazi's are at the door to get your stove....
What the F'For!!!!??? because the "weather changes"? Ya; I think not.... They're just flexing their Power-Mad Gov-Guns at you to show you who's boss around here.
There was a time when we were all kept safe from the Nazi's by a U.S. Constitution that never gave the 'Federal' Nazi's any authority for a Monopoly(?Department?) of Energy...
F'En Nazi's.
TJJ, the only Nazis in America show up at gun shows and Trump rallies.
lol... Right; because Trump constantly pushed for National Socialist (Nazism)... Are you actually so polluted you actually believe the crap you spout or are just just a typical Nazi PROJECTING like the racist, sexist, and self-entitled criminal to other people's creations - scum that you are. Think about it.... Don't just run around like a GD mindless following sheep running off a cliff. THINK don't PROJECT...
I.e. Don't lower yourself into being a useful idiot of Gang-affiliation.
You really are an ignorant fuck. The d do rats are the ones pushing literal nazi policies. You also use Nazi political tactics. You are pure evil.
bit early to be hitting the bottle, isn't it?
Markets have a way of doing the cost-benefit analysis without politicians involved. Progressives don't do markets.
Butler I've been making payroll for over 40 years as a builder. I consider myself a liberal and think the work progressive is just a euphemism though it probably distinguishes more left wing types from center left democrats like me. As I noted above, plenty of advances in technology happen because of government funding of research, spin-offs from government projects, and because the federal government adapts standards deemed in the public interest - protecting the environment and vaccines to name 2 - which create a large and new market for various technologies. I noted LED bulbs above, which until Congress acted to make incandescent bulbs a thing of the past where about $20 each. With this new market created by government edict, mass production and investment in improved production became feasible , they are now about $2 each. Would that have happened eventually anyway? Maybe, but it wasn't before.
Sure you’re a builder. We believe you.
Ted, you obviously only believe what makes you feel better. Being a builder is fine but not exactly bragging. I didn't say I was a nuclear physicist or brain surgeon, but answered a stupid comment about progressives and business.
Being a builder is somewhat complicated. I see you as something more basic. Maybe……. firewatcher.
JF, note: "liberal" does not mean what you think it means. Liberal means to leave people in peace. We've had to start saying "classical liberal" or "libertarian" because the left has appropriated the word, but they are anything but liberal - try disagreeing with one of them, and you'll find out how very narrowminded they are.
Words have meanings. Sloppy usage leads to sloppy thinking.
Whatever Ground. Liberal in 20th century America meant center left and that's what I am. If you prefer a semantics argument, look for someone else.
Your allegiances and positions paint you as a totalitarian enthusiast. But you can call yourself whatever the hell you want.
According to Joe Friday the center-left democrat....
Using Gov-Guns to STEAL from citizens to fund pet-projects is "progress"........
Okay; Filthy criminal...
I wonder if your criminality mentality extends to the top 1% using GUNS to force purchase by the market?? After all Jeff Bezo's put the people into space and does amazing things too... Perhaps he can have your blessing of Gov-Gun force over 'other' people's property... I guess it's just your all holy Gov-Gods doing Nazism you have such 'faith' in.. Pray to your Nazi's; The Nazi's always knows how everyone "progresses"... /s
Carbon Dioxide fertilization is greening the earth
Remember when, about 10-12 years ago natural gas was supposed to be the solution to climate change? Utilities built new gas power plants and shut down coal plants. Homeowners were encouraged to switch from oil or even electric to gas furnaces and water heaters. Now, after billions have been spent doing exactly this, and it has put a big dent in emissions, we are being told by our betters that we need to toss natural gas appliances on the junk pile. Heat pumps leak coolant which is 300x more powerful of a greenhouse gas than methane. Someone is benefiting from this, and I don’t mean from cleaner air, which it won’t be because gas will still get burned to make the electricity. I am thinking metal companies who stand to profit from high demand for copper, cobalt, lithium and other metals needed for electrification.
The cliche phrase of "crony capitalism" shows just how bad the left projects (points fingers for EXACTLY what they are doing).... It has and always will be "crony socialism".... There is no such thing as being "crony" in a free-market.
The destruction of consumer appliances and fixtures is so annoying. Washing machines, dishwashers, dryers, refrigerators, faucets, showerheads, all turned to shit to some degree by the federal government.
Does anyone know (a) if any new better dishwashers were actually produced under the short-lived Trump rules, (b) where you can get nonconforming or gray market stuff that is actually good?
I suppose you could look for gently used appliances for sale? Or maybe try shopping for them in Mexico.
And it goes much deeper than just consumer appliances.. Diesel energy is on the fence of being entirely destroyed. This is not the USA anymore; it's a Nazi-Nation thanks to Power-Mad Politicians throwing their democratic GUNS at the people over EVERYTHING using those GUNS for exactly the opposite of what they were established for... (I.e. When the government decides to start ignore the LAW (Supreme Law) and starts working for criminals instead).
I would be looking for the fine print that requires all installation be done by union labor—a portion of whose dues will then kick back to the Democrat party.
My mother used to say that gas is your friend. If gas leaks, you smell it and get our of the house. Electricity is not your friend. It can start a fire or electrocute you in an instant.
In the interest of full disclosure, my mother worked for a gas utility.
Here's another problem with condensing furnaces: Where does the condensed water go? My neighbor in the condo above mine has one of them. The water drains to a PVC pipe that drips it outside the building. But twice the water in the pipe froze, causing the water to build up on their furnace room floor, and then down into my own furnace room.
Anyone who doesn't have a floor drain in their furnace room would face a similar concern.
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Joe Biden Is Coming for Everything You Own
You will be a serf, a peasant, own nothing and be happy about it.
FJB
Saying that Biden is "coming for your gas furnace" is disingenuous.
The article fails to mention that more efficient designs will save consumers much more over the life of the furnace and greatly off-set any increase in up-front cost. It will also drive the market for more efficient furnaces, bring the prices down. I also question the installation costs as I think those numbers, if accurate, only reflect replacing non-condensing furnaces, but the condensing type have been out for quite a while, meaning that many consumers won't bear those costs.
Yeah; because everything government has done "saves consumers".
Like our Healthcare market
Like our Housing market
Like our Education market..
Ignorant stupidity at it's best...
And yet you still have ZERO, ZIP, NODDA reasons why Gov-Guns have to be exist into such a great "save" of consumers... Because that's how your DICTATIVE propaganda is done... F'En Nazi.
If it saves consumers so much, why is it mandatory?
They screwed up banning R22 when it got replaced with R410, etc,
How about getting rid of the income tax (at least most of it) and shifting to carbon tax and all of this regulatory non-sense will take care of itself?
Nah. Carbon tax is bullshit, as is AGW.
What is this a war against plant-life????
Plants require CO2 like humans require O2; or did your 1st Grade chemistry class fail you.
Back in the 90s, I had a 93% efficient central gas system in my home. Problem was that almost every time the outside temperature dropped below 0 F, it would break down and I'd have to use my fireplace gas logs to heat the house. The technician blamed it on the motherboard, which tended to fail frequently in that model. After 2 years of this and 3 motherboard replacements, I had the blasted super-efficient unit replace with an 80% efficient unit that NEVER broke down.
So all I can say is that I hope these newer, more complex 95% efficient condensing units work better than the older model did.