Evan McMullin

Will a Coalition of Hawks, Mormons, and Libertarian-Leaners Form a New Third Party?

Three reasons to be skeptical about Evan McMullin's latest political initiative.

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Evan McMullin, a conservative ex-CIA analyst so disgusted with former President Donald Trump that he launched an independent presidential campaign in 2016, got on 11 state ballots, and finished in fifth place with 0.5 percent of the popular vote, has co-announced on Thursday a "new political movement" of 150 mostly right-of-center political figures, including former Massachusetts Gov. Bill Weld, former Rep. Joe Walsh (R–Ill.), and former South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford, three conservatives so disgusted with Trump that they ran against him in the 2020 GOP presidential primary and lost by a combined 93 percentage points.

In a joint letter precipitated by the removal of Rep. Liz Cheney (R–Wyo.) from Republican leadership in the House of Representatives, and patterned consciously after the Declaration of Independence, McMullin and his anti-Trump co-signatories "declare our intent to catalyze an American renewal, and to either reimagine a party dedicated to our founding ideals or else hasten the creation of such an alternative."

As a political project, the would-be catalyzers face extremely long odds. The playing field of American politics these past six years has been littered with the corpses of failed or stillborn attempts to challenge Trump from the right. The only lasting third-party alternative in that span "dedicated to our founding ideals" is one that has put in a half-century of grunt work to get one percent of the vote.

But as a media and fundraising initiative, the effort may find more fertile terrain. McMullin's co-organizer of American Renewal is Miles Taylor, a government security analyst known mostly for being the anonymous author of the 2018 New York Times op-ed "I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration," which he then spun into the bestselling 2019 book A Warning. In August 2020, a no-longer-anonymous Taylor accused his former boss of "playing…on the Russian team and not the American team," and filmed a two-minute advertisement for Republican Voters Against Trump, a project launched by the 501(c)(4) group Republicans for the Rule of Law, which was co-founded by veteran Washington commentator and political schemer Bill Kristol.

"I'm still a Republican, but I'm hanging on by the skin of my teeth because how quickly the party has divorced itself from truth and reason," Taylor told The New York Times this week. "I'm one of those in the group that feels very strongly that if we can't get the G.O.P. back to a rational party that supports free minds, free markets, and free people, I'm out and a lot of people are coming with me."

Those people attracted to such concepts as truth, reason, "free minds," and "free markets" may find themselves nodding along to some of the principles espoused in the letter, especially if they have a strong stomach for portentous language. (The first line of the declaration reads: "These United States, born of noble convictions and aspiring to high purpose, have been an exemplar of self-government to humankind.")

McMullin, Taylor, & Co. favor "open, market-based economies…consistent with our natural liberty," reject "populism and illiberalism, whether of the right or the left," and stress that "it is the prerogative of all to make personal decisions in accordance with their free will." They want to welcome lawful immigrants, keep regulation limited, and protect property rights. So far, so unobjectionable.

Where the manifesto begins to diverge most sharply from the Libertarian Party platform is the unspecific yet ambitious paragraph titled "Leadership": "Having thrived in the abundance of a choice land, we believe that these United States must work in conjunction with friends and allies to advance worthy interests abroad and to promote freedom by example and with the judicious application of power."

This passage, in a document arranged by two security-state veterans, and unveiled in the service of supporting Liz Cheney, is a good prompt to cross-check some of the names on the bottom of the petition. Sure enough, #NeverTrump 6.0 is endorsed by several people with fingerprints all over an activist foreign policy.

There is Michael Hayden, former director of both the CIA and the National Security Agency, who lied to Congress about torture programs, has likened air strikes to "casual sex," and made jokes about putting Edward Snowden on a kill list. There is former national intelligence director and serial ambassador to geostrategic countries (Honduras in the 1980s, Iraq in the aughts) John Negroponte, former State Department counselor and World War IV booster Eliot A. Cohen, and former Department of Homeland Security chief and indefinite-detention enthusiast Michael Chertoff, among several other lesser-known veterans of the George W. Bush administration.

Many of these same people lent their names to anti-Trump efforts in 2016 on foreign policy grounds, then cheered on the Russia-related investigations that dogged the 45th president, and are now threatening to start their own party if Trumpism isn't sufficiently cleansed from the GOP.

That pro-market anti-Trumpers are talking about a third party while ignoring the Libertarians, even though one of the signatories (Weld) ran as the L.P. vice presidential nominee as recently as 2016, touches on each of the three main obstacles to herding Trump-averse non-Democrats into anything like a single tent.

1) The three biggest anti-Trump blocs are ideologically incompatible. It has been clear since the dawn of the Trump era that opposition to the crudely mannered America First mercantilist would come most intensely from foreign policy hawks (John McCain, John Kasich, Bill Kristol), libertarian-leaners (Justin Amash, Mark Sanford, George Will), and Mormons (Evan McMullin, Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake).

While Latter-day Saints members can swing between hawkery and dovery (just think of the significant ideological split between Utah's Republican delegation to the U.S. Senate), the fault lines are obvious: Libertarians and neocons generally dislike one another, and even the most loosey-goosey of Mormons have a hard time embracing the full legal logic of personal autonomy for consenting adults. Any movement that requires these camps to get along will likely be short-term and transactional, not unlike the 2016 third-party voters who in 2020 held their noses to vote for President Joe Biden.

2) Noisy anti-Trumpism is mostly incompatible with holding elected office as a Republican. The American Renewal letter signatures look like the roster of a political reunion for the Class of '95. In addition to two-time Massachusetts Gov. Weld, there's former New Jersey Gov. Christine Todd Whitman, former California Rep. Tom Campbell, former Minnesota Gov. Arne Carlson, former Oklahoma Rep. Mickey Edwards, former Maryland Rep. Wayne Gilchrest, and dozens of others unburdened by the need to win reelection from the modern Republican electorate.

Of the vanishingly few current office-holders on the list, they tend to share a rare characteristic: recent defection from the GOP. Jim Hendren was the Republican majority leader of the Arkansas Senate until this January, when, disgusted by the Capitol riot, he stepped down from leadership, and then the next month left the party altogether. And California State Assemblyman Chad Mayes, the former Republican minority leader, left the party in late 2019 after drawing fire for his criticisms of Trump.

Prior to his departure, Mayes engaged in the kind of Third Way/No Labels activity common among many signatories of the American Renewal letter. From his Wikipedia page:

In January 2018, Mayes formed "New Way California," aiming to broaden the appeal of the Republican Party by advocating for "individual freedom, shared responsibility, educational excellence, environmental stewardship, efficient government and an open economy." The group has been publicly supported by former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, and both Mayes and Schwarzenegger – along with Ohio governor John Kasich – headlined the group's inaugural summit in Los Angeles on March 21….The summit was criticized by some in the California Republican Party, including former chairman Ron Nehring, who described them as "elites talking down to grassroots voters."

As an independent and non-fan of Trump, I share the Renewalists' embarrassment at mainstream GOP fear of crossing Trump voters. Yet that is the world we live in. If you want to hold office as a Republican, and spend any measurable amount of time criticizing the former president, you better have a safe seat, stature, and bank vaults full of cash. Even then, you're going to get booed.

3) At a time of intense negative polarization, centrist scolds are popular mostly in limited corners of the media, and among opportunistic anti-Trump partisans. See: Jeff Flake, Howard Schultz, John Kasich, etc.

Arguably the most successful anti-Trump centrist initiative, at least as measured by revenue and media reach, has been The Lincoln Project, a political action committee of former GOP political operatives that raised scores of millions of dollars from Democrats to run anti-Trump ads in 2020. The project has been dogged by all kinds of scandal and controversy, particularly after the election was safely delivered to Biden.

Three of the American Renewal signatories—George Conway, Jennifer Horn, and Mike Madrid—were co-founders of The Lincoln Project; former Michigan GOP executive Jeff Timmer, too, has been a key member. Evan McMullin's most likely path to success lies less in the direction of dreary third-party construction, and more in a Lincoln Project-style initiative to raise money and make noise about the Republican Party's regnant Trumpism.

But there's an obstacle on that road, too. America's high alert about Trump has nowhere to go but down. The man is not the president, he is not going to be the president, and most people worried about such have moved on with their lives. Sure, I would love to see a GOP that explicitly rejects its most internally popular figure, just as I would love to see a Democratic Party worried about the national debt. In either case, the short-term chances of that happening are the same: slim, none, and fat.

NEXT: AMC, Amazon Offer Up Television Adaptations of Two Hot Books

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276 responses to “Will a Coalition of Hawks, Mormons, and Libertarian-Leaners Form a New Third Party?

  1. Bro, it’s the other way around. The neocons are teaming up with the billionaires, fascists, and other radical leftists to punish and impose on the American people.

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  2. tl; dr. no

    1. But they almost hate Trump as much as you do. They also wanted Biden over Trump. They also got what they asked for. Or are you a complete leftist now?

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    2. By the way… You yourself literally posted their signed letter just 2 days ago in the roundup. If so against it… why? Hmm…

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    3. Would you two please just mute each other?

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      2. Sarc’s a lolcow and Jesse is his cowboy. The comments would be a lot less amusing on mute.

        1. And we wouldn’t be able to hear about Sarc’s big weekend with cool dudes at a HALF mIllion dollar lake house!

          1. Plus how much the glibs love him and how nasty everyone here is!

  3. These guys were in power for the first decade of the 21st century, and all we got were illiberal authoritarian laws, more wars, more welfare, and teed up Obama to explode the debt. This is why you got Trump, because McCain and Romney were just the same old species of GOP. You can cast aspersions about Trump all you want, and he did nothing to affect deficit spending, but if these cucks seriously think they are getting back in power now they are delusional. Those days are over.

    1. I agree – it is no surprise that a Senator who inherited her seat from a father well connected in the power structure hates any changes in her world. Trump is an asshole, but he is also change, a lot of it for the good.

    2. This. This all day.

    3. he [Trump] did nothing to affect deficit spending

      The U.S. has a spending problem, not a tax problem!

      This is the same old Laffer Curve nonsense that the right has been peddling since Reagan. Cut taxes and watch the boost to the economy bring in more tax money than with the higher rates! This might happen when taxes were very high, but the U.S. has not had the kind of high marginal tax rates where this might happen since the 60’s. Besides, if this logic always worked, then why not cut taxes even more?!?

      1. Yes. It’s a travesty of modern views of liberty that someone would have the audacity to suggest people keep more of their money.

        1. “Yes. It’s a travesty of modern views of liberty that someone would have the audacity to suggest people keep more of their money.”

          And that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. Suggesting that people should pay less taxes as a matter of “liberty” is completely different than saying that lowering taxes will result in an increase in total revenue because of some multiplier effect.

          And as for it being a matter of liberty, I think that is not a valid way to think about taxes. Taxes are a bill for the services government provides. By necessity, they aren’t optional the way that buying goods or services usually are, but taxing and spending are part of what we vote on when we choose candidates.

          If you want to be free from taxes, then you are also going to be doing without as many services from government. Everyone can think of things that they’d rather the government not spend money on, but then some of the things you are happy that it spends money on are things that other people would rather it didn’t. Make the case for cutting specific spending and get a majority of people to agree with you so that it actually happens, and then you can increase your liberty from taxes. Until then, tax cuts are just going to fuel the deficit.

          1. “but then some of the things you are happy that it spends money on are things that other people would rather it didn’t”

            Or I could just be happy for government to cut spending anywhere. Ever.

            1. Like I said, squid_hunt, propose some specific spending to reduce or you might as well be talking to the wind.

  4. Fine split its about time teh republicans have become useless in most all manners but this new party will not be any better. I literally think the shit is up and there are no true or just too few libertarians or constitutionalist. Ironicly Trump was the closest thing to that lately but he got punished for it

    1. A guy who tried to bully the Vice President to reject Electoral College votes from select states where said guy lost has disqualified himself as a “constitutionalist”.

      1. What form did this bullying take that made it unconstitutional? Try to be specific, if that is at all possible.

        1. That’s a Jeff sock. Don’t expect anything substantial in reply.

          1. Mike Laursen is also White Knight for sure, who might also be Jeff’s sock, but certainly is Chipper and maybe DOL as well.

            Brandybuck is probably the only lefty here who isn’t samefagging, fifty-centing and running multiple socks.

            1. So many slang terms. I need to look them up. We also need a scorecard to figure out who is who around here.

              Granted I tend to treat all progs with a similar level of disdain. Except SQRLSY and Buttplug. Those two are a special kind of scum.

      2. “A guy who tried to bully the Vice President to reject Electoral College votes from select states where said guy lost has disqualified himself as a “constitutionalist”.”

        TDS-addled assholes have active fantasy lives.

    2. One thing I hope this laughable move succeeds in is drawing out enough of the neocons from the GOP that the party might actually try to clean house and be something more like a small government party, something like the Libertarian Party but not laughably unsuccessful.

      1. With luck it will pull double duty.

        Clean up the GOP by sweeping out the refuse and give sane democrat voters a place to go when fleeing the insane socialists who have taken over their party.

  5. Hey, you all know what this is. It’s another group designed to separate supporters from their money and give paychecks to a handful of group founders. Left, right, even libertarians, have practiced this strategy from time immemorial.

    1. They could call themselves the Lincoln Party….

      1. Yes, because not even Lincoln would find a place in the modern GOP.

        1. Maybe he could join the Lincoln project and be a pedo.

        2. It’s clearly a take on the Lincoln Project which his behind the historical character of Lincoln to bilk morons out of millions of dollars.

        3. not even Lincoln would find a place in the modern GOP

          The GOPe Lincoln Project couldn’t get “behind” the GOP either. Maybe if Trump was 67 years younger they would’ve been more inclined.

  6. Uh, no.
    We are struggling to retain a two party system.

    1. We’re not struggling at all. The two party system is just fine, we’re just experiencing some realignment within them. As the chickenhawks are finding safe refuge among the well funded cabals of powerful people and their stormtroopers, regular Americans that considered themselves solidly leftist four years ago are finding themselves aligned with the America First coalition.

      1. The two party system works for the parties. Doesn’t work that well for us. Mencken said that in a two party system the job of the parties is to convince voters that the other party is evil, and they’re both right.

        Think about it. If one half the country vehemently believes the other half is evil, and the latter is equally hostile towards the former, can’t they both be right?

        1. You can’t really “both sides” this when one side is literally paying millions of dollars to white supremacists that burn down black neighborhoods and murder black children and the other side doesn’t.

          1. Quite accurate sarcasmic like hyperbole. Kudos.

            1. I thought he was referring to BLM

              1. He was.

        2. Who is this us? You seemingly only hate one side, giving the other side wide berth.

      2. Depends on what is meant by “struggling”; the duopoly’s going to keep shambling along, but its glory days are clearly long behind it. The GOP entirely lacks institutional control of itself (hence episodes like this) and the DNC is nearly in the same shape.

    2. Winner take all systems are two party systems.

      However, it’s quite possible that in the future, the two parties will be the socialist party and the progressive-fascist party.

  7. Bring back Rick Santorum and the sweater vest brigade!

  8. George Will as libertarian leaning ?

    Give me a break !

    1. Being that I’ve yet to meet a Trump supporter who remotely understands libertarianism, I don’t think Trump supporters have any standing to judge someone as libertarian-leaning or not.

      1. I never really understood why supporter of the former President think he is libertarian. A clear eyed looked would see little in the way of support for liberty.

        1. I never really understood why supporter of the former President think he is libertarian.

          He got taxes lowered a bit, got some very minor deregulation to happen, almost got our troops out of Afghanistan…

          While he also stood for nationalism and populism, started a protectionist trade war, was a dick to immigrants, jacked the debt, supported the death penalty, continued the drug war…

          That’s just off the top of my head. To me anything he did that was remotely libertarian was purely on accident.

          1. Yeah, but you’re broken. How’s Joe working out for you buddy?

            1. Jesse, it would be a lot more pleasant for everyone around here if you would just take one big trip of mushrooms in the appropriate surroundings.

              Or years of therapy, either way.

              1. Mute the douche.

              2. Actually, no. I like your first idea. With the environment being a hall of mirrors full of loaded guns.

                1. Sarc’s concept of libertarianism is basically open-carry and legal weed. Free speech and personal liberty not so much.

              3. Doesn’t seem to have helped YOU any.

              4. “Jesse, it would be a lot more pleasant for everyone around here if you would just take one big trip of mushrooms in the appropriate surroundings.
                Or years of therapy, either way.”

                Lefty shits are big on projection.

              5. DOL, you’re one of the biggest paid trolls here and a far-left extremist to boot.
                Don’t pretend like you’re the voice of moderation and libertarianism.

              6. Some people tell me that I need help
                Some people can fuck off and go to hell

          2. Also…. too bad Trump didn’t act as an authoritarian and force all those things Congress controls to go through the Executive. It is very weird how you hold him responsible for congressional action.

            You also left out the fact that he operated largely as a federalist, leaving most of the covid response to the states instead of subsuming the power as his own.

            1. And in fact he maneuvered the states into standing up and taking responsibility.

          3. He supported federalism. That’s pretty huge. His instincts to interfere with local governments was to get them to give their citizens MORE freedom.

          4. The reality is you can cherry pick libertarian actions for almost any President. You have to look at the President as a whole and the former President comes no where near being libertarian.

            1. He comes nowhere near libertarianism and at the same time he’s closer than any other president in decades.

              1. This.
                Trump wasn’t a libertarian, but he was the most libertarian president since Coolidge.

            2. “The reality is you can cherry pick libertarian actions for almost any President.”

              You’re full of shit; NOTHING Biden has done could be considered ‘libertarian’ even by brain-damaged shits like you.

              1. It’s almost impossible to pick out anything libertarian from the Bush and Obama presidencies.
                And if Biden keeps going down the present path, he may become the most anti-libertarian president in history.

        2. I think the argument is that he at least wasn’t as bad for liberty as most presidents. And I agree in some part, though I’d never call him any kind of libertarian or principled anything. I’d certainly take him over Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.

          1. My take was always that his failure to be explicitly anti- liberty made him better than most candidates in a lot of ways, but as I’ve said before, a pair of dice applied to every policy decision would result in more libertarian outcomes than we would get from most candidates.

        3. Someone that supports streetcorner executions has no place to lecture anyone else about libertarianism.

        4. No new wars, lower taxes, less regulations…

          Yeap. No liberty at all.

          1. Criminal justice reform as well.

            1. We got not one but 4 covid vaccines because he cut through miles of FDA red tape.

      2. God you’re broken.

        Please tell us how Biden has been much more libertarian leaning.

        1. You do realize that the two statements, “Trump is more libertarian than Biden” and “Trump is not a libertarian” are not mutually exclusive, right?

          1. ^ This.

          2. Trump is not a libertarian.

            Trump is a pragmatist. Fortunately that pragmatism lead him to pursue policies that were at least in part libertarian.

            Biden is a democrat that will mold himself to whatever and whomever will get him. Ore power and money. In the 70’s it was old Dixiecrats, in the 90’s it was things like his law and order legislation. Today, he is pursuing a radical prog Marxist agenda.

            He would be a hard right conservative if there was enough in it for him. He has no morals or scruples. He’s an empty vessel. And in recent years, an empty mind as well.

      3. Compared to Trump, even Pinochet sounds vaguely libertarian.

        1. Yes, because murdering dissidents is so libertarian. This is really your take?

          1. He’s a retarded goober

            1. Yep. Really doesn’t not seem to mind making moronic statements.

          2. Not so much “murder” as “character assassination”. It’s no surprise that a lot of the support for this new movement comes from Republicans retired from office. No one wants to commit blasphemy against Saint Donald and face his cult horde while they’re still campaigning for re-election.

        2. Shit son, that’s the hottest of hot takes, but you may want to rethink it.

        3. TDS-addled asshole keep making claims without the slightest hint of evidence.
          Were they assholes first, or did their TDDS make them so?

        4. You’re a stupid asshole.

      4. You don’t. Or you wouldn’t be supporting the democrats all the time.

    2. Clearly a person unfamiliar with George Will’s writings. You might want to read some before making statements like this.

      1. There are no libertarians, remember? If you don’t follow Trump then you’re a leftist. Will isn’t a huge fan of Trump, which makes him a leftist. Libertarians were critical of Trump, which makes them all leftists. You should know this by now.

        1. If you can’t criticize CRT, MMT, Biden, or Democrats, you are a leftist. They are the biggest assault on freedom in decades. You don’t care. So you’re not a libertarian.

          1. What if I criticize all those things and Trump, tariffs, immigration laws, and Republicans, can I still be a libertarian, or is that not allowed? Because that seems to be your usual schtick.

            1. I’ve got JesseAz on mute because he’s never made a post that wasn’t a snide personal attack. You should mute him as well.

              1. Sarcasmic will never let a day go by without proudly reciting his mute list.

                And it’s all you guy’s fault for not giving him enough attention. Please give sarcasmic attention everyone, he really needs it.

              2. You poor baby. Need me to wipe away the tears?

      2. past writings do not concure with recent actions

        1. You should recheck your assumptions, I believe you will find that Mr. Wills is consistent. It is not he that has moved.

          1. Are you really defending that wizened old elitist Iraq hawk?
            Just because someone mouths libertarianish things about deregulation and drugs, doesn’t excuse all his shilling for the state on war and free speech.

      3. “Clearly a person unfamiliar with George Will’s writings.”

        LOL. You are a child.

        How long have you been reading George Will?

      4. Lots of people write a lot of lot of stuff but that isn’t what they actually are. George Will is a self-aggrandizing blow-hard, in a long line of self-aggrandizing blow-hards in the Republican party.

        In practical terms, George Will seems to be somewhere between a neocon and a progressive, depending on which way the political wind blows.

  9. The implosion of the pedophile Lincoln Project left a vacuum in the NeverTrump marketplace. All these folks are doing is filling it.

    The reason there are so many ex-officeholders on the list is because they no longer have to pretend to like or listen to the people they supposedly represented. Current GOP officeholders hate Republican voters, too – they just can’t admit it at this stage of their careers.

  10. Killallrednecks having a meltdown in 10…9…

    1. I get the feeling you don’t like me…

      1. I don’t know you, so I would not say that.

        I will say the death threat and anti mormon shtick is well worn out.

        I mean, make fun of mormons. Their beliefs are funny and deserve ridicule. But don’t threaten to kill people on here. And try to be funny or clever, whatever you are doing.

        1. Agree to disagree

          1. So, you won’t even try to be funny or clever?

            1. No I take my Mormon bashing very seriously

              1. Nobody cares.

                1. Then why reply to me?

                  1. To try to get you to either up your game or go away, because you’re neither clever nor substantive.

                    1. You have seen KARens game. What makes you think he can up it? When he backs off from genocidal hatred (because he’s a pussy) he just makes child like assumptions about people based on geographic location or what tv shows they like.

                  2. four asshole flags.

              2. Which is bizarre, as Mormons aren’t a big factor in much of anything outside of Utah, and maybe Idaho politics.

                1. I just looked it up. The Mormon Church less than 7 million followers in the US. So not exactly threatening to take over.

          1. You do realize the LDS church has been discredited?

            The Mormons perv god isn’t real.

            1. You do realize Marxism has been discredited?

              The Marxist perv god Biden is real, but a worthless senile moron.

  11. Mormons do whatever they can to keep power and force their religion and lifestyle on everyone. If that means sucking Trump’s dick then they’ll suck Trump’s dick.

    Their allegiance is to their pervert god. Not the US or it’s constitution. So they have no problem teaming up with fascist traitors. Hell most of them are already Nazis.

    1. If that means sucking Trump’s dick then they’ll suck Trump’s dick.

      Which is why Mormons are so heavily represented in the Never-Trump faction?

      1. Some Utah GOP thingamabob just booed Romney the other day.

        A lot of mormons will do anything to impose their religion and lifestyle on everyone.

        1. Okay. And your point is?

          1. Mormons will do anything for power over us reasonable folks. Including jumping on the Trump bandwagon.

            Heck many are already Nazis, so it’s not a stretch for them to embrace Trump.

            1. Including jumping on the Trump bandwagon.

              Except for the part about the Never-Trump faction being pointedly Mormon-heavy.

              1. Romney and McMuffin are in the minority among perv worshippers.

                1. Wearin’ out the flag feature

            2. I figured it out. You’re a secret gimp for a closeted Mormon homo. He isn’t giving you enough loving. Probably leaving you in your gimp box for days at a time. So this is how you act out, in between stewing in your own filth.

              That’s it, isn’t it?

              1. You’re overthinking this.
                Never assume design where abysmal stupidity will suffice, as in the case of the asshole.

                1. Can’t it be both?

    2. Mormons I know are all libertarian these days. Like, they literally go to reason events in dc. Unlike you fucks.

      That said, Mormons are the bane of humanity and will indeed vote for authoritarianism every time.

      Also the Egyptian fertility god Min wasn’t a perv, Joseph smith was though.

      1. They all say they’re libertarian and believe in “free agency.” It’s a bunch of bs. You have the free agency to accept their beliefs and lifestyle or they’ll treat you like shit.

        Mormons are Nazis. Kill them all! Even the 1% that aren’t Nazi shitbags. They’ll have like 10 kids who’ll grow up to be Nazis.

        1. You really don’t understand what comprises national socialism. At all.

          If you did, you would realize you are far more closely aligned than any Mormon.

  12. “mostly right-of-center political figures, including former Massachusetts Gov. Bill Weld,”

    Lost me right about there. These appear to be a bunch a deep staters who want their party back.

    1. I mean, is that not part of what this article is talking about? What is the objection? Are all “deep staters” on the left?

      1. Deep State is invested in big and powerful government. As much as nanny state is left wing, Yes, all deep state is of the left.

        Deep state war “capitalist” war mongers and Deep state “peace nick” socialists are all fascists. They are wedded to the appearance of capitalism or socialism while favoring the marriage between government and business that gives insiders money and power.

        1. “Deep State is invested in big and powerful government. As much as nanny state is left wing, Yes, all deep state is of the left.”

          The Deep State is not so much a secret cabal as the natural byproduct of the confluence of money and power.

          Really amazing that this has to be explicitly explained on a ‘libertarian’ website.

      2. “Are all “deep staters” on the left?…”

        If you look at the extent of control those on the far left exert over the actions of their “subjects”, you’d quickly see that to be the case.
        To pick, say Pinochet, as an example of far right, he in no way controlled the population as did Stalin, Mao or any of the Kims. Pretty sure you could criticize Pinochet without your entire family ending up imprisoned or shot.

    2. That’s exactly what they are. Back in 2016 McMuffin tried to style himself as something akin to libertarian but he couldn’t shut the fuck up about being a CIA spook. Gary Johnson was alright in 2016 but Bill Weld was a head scratcher for the VP pick and he seemed fairly comfortable with excusing Hillary Clinton’s years of crooked behavior and for a “libertarian” was pretty comfortable with gun control. I remember meeting Nick Sarwark once in 2016 and having him tell me McMuffin’s campaign money all came from Clinton networks and he was just being run by the Clintons to split the third party vote from the LP. I remembered thinking, well the LP already chose Bill Weld for VP so it’s not like there was a whole lot of votes to split away. This whole faction that’s forming is just a bunch of beat down neocons and permanent government types playing the parts of salt of the earth Mormons, libertarians and principaled conservatives. The longer this experiment runs with them all in the same room, the more holes will be poked into this idea that any of them are who they say they are.

      1. “This whole faction that’s forming is just a bunch of beat down neocons and permanent government types playing the parts of salt of the earth Mormons, libertarians and principaled conservatives.”

        All the new found ‘respect’ for George Will from the writers here has been as laughable as it is transparent,

        Both Will and they are simply sucking up to the same group of money men.

      2. I remember meeting Nick Sarwark once in 2016 and having him tell me McMuffin’s campaign money all came from Clinton networks and he was just being run by the Clintons to split the third party vote from the LP.

        It shouldn’t be a surprise that his “campaign” was Clinton-funded. The Lincoln Project’s primary funding came from big-money Democrats.

    3. That’s exactly what they are. Back in 2016 McMuffin tried to style himself as something akin to libertarian but he couldn’t shut the fuck up about being a CIA spook. Gary Johnson was alright in 2016 but Bill Weld was a head scratcher for the VP pick and he seemed fairly comfortable with excusing Hillary Clinton’s years of crooked behavior and for a “libertarian” was pretty comfortable with gun control. I remember meeting Nick Sarwark once in 2016 and having him tell me McMuffin’s campaign money all came from Clinton networks and he was just being run by the Clintons to split the third party vote from the LP. I remembered thinking, well the LP already chose Bill Weld for VP so it’s not like there was a whole lot of votes to split away. This whole faction that’s forming is just a bunch of beat down neocons and permanent government types playing the parts of salt of the earth Mormons, libertarians and principaled conservatives. The longer this experiment runs with them all in the same room, the more holes will be poked into this idea that any of them are who they say they are.

  13. “veteran Washington commentator and political schemer Bill Kristol”

    Kristol is an American patriot. It’s unfair — and maybe even anti-Semitic — to dismiss him as a “schemer.”

    I would have referred to him as “leading neocon intellectual and former Weekly Standard coworker of Reason.com’s editor-in-chief KMW.”

    #LibertariansForEmbracingNeocons

    1. Canadian as well..it seems all those necons were Canadian at one time..

      1. Kristol was born in NYC.

        The only neocon ex-Canadian I can think of at the moment is David Frum.

  14. Please stop treating Taylor, aka NYT Anonymous, as a serious person.

    Thanks.

    1. This. The dude pretended to be some high level cabinet member when he was some nobody at a position so inconsequential Im straining to even remember. Wasn’t it some mid to upper level DHS position?

  15. Three of the American Renewal signatories—George Conway, Jennifer Horn, and Mike Madrid—were co-founders of The Lincoln Project; former Michigan GOP executive Jeff Timmer, too, has been a key member.

    As if we needed any more proof that this is just another grift.

    The fact that Sam Sterns-looking spook piece of shit McMuffin is being heralded as the face of this movement is proof positive that its primary purpose is to suck dollars out of Chamber of Commerce types and Democratic sympathizers, not win elections.

    The last 100 years has four notable third-party movements that were legitimate threats to the dual-party system. In the first, TRs Bull Moose party resulted in 8 years of Wilson and the worst amendments to the Constitution in the nation’s history. The Dixiecrats breaking off nearly cost Truman the 1948 election, and a similar run by Wallace in 1968 (combined with LBJ completely botching Vietnam) resulted in Nixon taking the seat. Perot’s populist campaign likely tipped 1992 in Clinton’s favor.

    What will ultimately happen is that these guys will either cross over completely to the Democrats, or throw up their hands, go back to the Republicans, and ignore Trump (either through simply pretending he doesn’t exist, or stating, “I need to focus on beating the Democrats, not worrying about whatever Trump does or says,”) while pushing whatever political agenda they think will get them elected.

    1. What will ultimately happen is that these guys will either cross over completely to the Democrats, or throw up their hands, go back to the Republicans, and ignore Trump (either through simply pretending he doesn’t exist, or stating, “I need to focus on beating the Democrats, not worrying about whatever Trump does or says,”) while pushing whatever political agenda they think will get them elected.

      Yup – all they’re really doing is identifying themselves as a block that’s currently up for grabs.

    2. What will ultimately happen is that these guys will either cross over completely to the Democrats, or throw up their hands, go back to the Republicans, and ignore Trump (either through simply pretending he doesn’t exist, or stating, “I need to focus on beating the Democrats, not worrying about whatever Trump does or says,”) while pushing whatever political agenda they think will get them elected.

      Yup – all they’re really doing is identifying themselves as a block that’s currently up for grabs.

      1. Wow. That’s been my first squirrel attack in many, many years.

        1. No one expects the Squirrelquisition!

    3. TRs Bull Moose party resulted in 8 years of Wilson and the worst amendments to the Constitution in the nation’s history.

      This is the real reason why these grifts are so successful.

    4. Nobody wins the Republican nomination without treating Trump as a deity. That’s just the way it is now. I told you they were stupid.

      And it’s an open question whether anyone who isn’t actually named Trump will generate any enthusiasm whatsoever.

      Still, I do think it’s a grift, and I do think that any actual third party in the race will peel off only those morons in the middle who voted for Biden in order to make the bad man go away but who have no loyalty or political thoughts otherwise. The people dumb enough to vote third party in an American election, in other words.

      1. And it’s an open question whether anyone who isn’t actually named Trump will generate any enthusiasm whatsoever.

        2024 is an eternity in political terms. We don’t even know how the mid-terms are going to shake out, or some black swan type of event that could affect the overall campaign. Hell, Trump didn’t even declare his own campaign until the day after Jeb Bush announced. If Jeb hadn’t run, I’m about 50/50 that Trump would have stayed out of it.

        If it hadn’t been for COVID, Biden very well could have lost. Obama reportedly didn’t even think he should run because he thought Biden had no real vision and was just pathetically trying to capture past glories. That would certainly explain why he treated his campaign appearances like he was in the waiting room of the dentist office.

        1. You’re speaking sensibly. That’s all just pops and buzzes to Tony. He can’t understand anything other than the pablum fed to him by the prog collective. As he is their obedient drone.

        2. If it hadn’t been for COVID, Biden very well could have lost.

          If Trump had handled COVID with real leadership, Biden couldn’t have won. Trump reportedly blew up about the “fucking virus” when some advisor suggested that it could hurt his reelection chances. No doubt that just reinforced his inclination to make the whole thing about him, just like everything else. He was handling it ‘perfect’, it would just go away, like a ‘miracle’ (a miracle performed by him, no doubt). If he had tackled it the way any sensible person with a real understanding of leadership would have, the results would have been much better and it would have built people’s confidence in him.

          We have his own words to show how screwed up his thinking was, as he gave Bob Woodward access to him and others. He told Woodward about how it was several times worse than the flu, at the same time he was comparing it to the flu in public as meaning that it was no big deal. There’s just no doubt that COVID kept Trump from a second term, but it wasn’t the fact that COVID hit that did it. It was how he responded to it that did him in.

  16. The founding of the Republican Party itself is instructive. It wasn’t formed from just the remnants of the recently dissolved Whigs. Otherwise the Whigs would have stayed Whigs. Rather it was a new coalition of older factions. Chief were the old classical liberal Whigs and abolitionists of several stripes, but also the virulently anti-immigrant Know Nothing Party. The later was what cemented the deal. The Party could go all out for abolition but they had to pay for freeing the Blacks for waging war against the Irish and Italian. Still better than the “slavery at any cost” Democrats, but hardly the cleaned and pressed suits that the hagiographers paint.

    Meaning, the modern GOP is going to have to make peace with the modern Know Nothings, or those anti-immigration populists will migrate [sic] to the Bernie wing of the Democrats. Which would not be a bad thing, as the GOP could get the “purple” Democrats in return.

    p.s. “Libertarian Lite” will never happen so long as the overwhelming majority of voters see the government as a hammer and trough.

    1. “p.s. “Libertarian Lite” will never happen so long as the overwhelming majority of voters see the government as a hammer and trough.”

      We just have to convince them it’s all hammer and no trough.

    2. You’re basically right about the Whigs but not the Know-Nothings.

      Never-Trumpers who are still yapping about what R should be are – Whigs. They will never leave because more than anything they need access to power. If a third party ever is able to access power, the Whigs will merely try to take it over. The reason they haven’t taken over the L’s is because L’s haven’t done any of the work needed to access power and don’t seem inclined to.

      The core split that later created the R’s was the Liberty Party and the Free-Soil Party. Those initially started as a split among D’s not Whigs. Abolitionists were a part of that but only in the eastern states. The basic issue was the western view that the ‘compromises’ with slavery were in fact surrenders to slaveowners and that a slavery system could not co-exist with a yeoman farmer system. So slavery could no longer simply be ignored. Northern Whigs then joined with that – and took it over – because westward expansion also required federal infrastructure and federal power over transferring from territories to states.

      The Know-Nothings may have started in NYC as a reaction to immigrants but it quickly became part of the pro-slavery anti-secession faction in southern politics – mostly in border states. After 1856, the small northern contingent joined the R’s. The much larger southern contingent joined with the Union Party and remnants of southern Whigs to form the Constitutional Union Party by 1860.

    3. So it’s ‘anti-immigrant’ to be against illegals crossing into the US? That sounds like democrat propaganda. Not any kind of logical principled position.

      1. Won’t take much research before you run into TDS-addled shits drawing comparisons exactly as you propose.

      2. So it’s ‘anti-immigrant’ to be against illegals crossing into the US?

        The Know Nothing Party that Brandybuck is talking about was nativist and used anti-Catholicism in its rhetoric (propaganda, more like). Irish and German immigrants that were Catholic were the targets, with beliefs espoused that the Pope was against liberty/democracy/republicanism. This was also prior to any real effort to make a system of legal immigration, so talking about illegal immigrants in the context of this history is anachronistic.

        As for the present sentiment about immigrants, its obviously not just about illegals. People here have talked about immigrants from India taking tech jobs, and so on. It is nativism, pure and simple.

        1. The Ondia thing isn’t about wanting to keep Indian immigrants out. I’ve never heard that sentiment expressed ever. It’s about tech businesses getting special visas that specifically allow them to bring in overseas workers to replace workers in existing filled positions. That’s not really the same thing, and in no way about restricting prospective I’m grants from India.

          1. It’s about tech businesses getting special visas that specifically allow them to bring in overseas workers to replace workers in existing filled positions.

            I would absolutely be against any businesses getting foreign worker visas when there are plenty of U.S. workers willing to do the job. (I seem to remember something about the visas Trump’s properties were getting being one of many instances of hypocrisy brought up in 2016, though.) What then becomes the question is the extent that we are or are not getting enough Americans to fill those jobs.

            But on legal immigration, what were Trump’s policies, preferred and implemented? Prior to the pandemic, what happened to the numbers of legal immigrants entering the U.S. under Trump?

  17. At best they’d form a caucus within the Republican party. And they won’t even do that because they’re spineless. The whole reason they’re in this situation is because they’ve been too spineless to do anything at all about their party’s descent into fascism.

    Now they’re left holding the bag and wondering what happened. They’ve had every opportunity to reform their party. They’re reaping what they sowed.

    1. The dark night of fascism is always descending on the republicans and yet lands only with the democrats.”

    2. “…The whole reason they’re in this situation is because they’ve been too spineless to do anything at all about their party’s descent into fascism…”

      Lefty TDS-addled assholes make these claims absent evidence or a clue as to the definition of fascism.

    3. Fascism is a lot of what the de o rats do. Not republicans. You always say these idiotic things. You even have your private terror groups like antifa and BLM.

  18. You forgot the most important reason:

    #4 The party has literally no reason to exist after 2024.

    Pretty much all of the ideals in their letter are conventional GOP talking points, or, at least, close enough to just be a faction in the party. The only thing that defines them is being anti-Trump. Opposing a 74 year old is not exactly an evergreen policy position.

    Does the GOP live up to its ideals? Of course not. However, there is no evidence that the new party would do any better.

  19. I expect the GOP insurgents to pull defeat from the jaws of victory and fail to truly take over the party, or any other. They are Republicans, after all.

  20. McMullin is a CIA stooge. Weld is a Democrat. Hard pass.

  21. I not sure if they need a new party or they need to become more involved at the state level. The problem the Republican appear to face is the takeover by those loyal to the former President in the state party apparatus. Wrench back control of some of those state parties and they could put the former President away for good.

    Recent reports indicate that Republican party staff are afraid or have been told not to report on the former President’s declining poll numbers. I don’t really think it would take that much to push him over the edge in oblivion. I think that Liz Cheney will be pushing for this route.

    1. Reporting the poll numbers doesn’t really matter though. If Trump is polling poorly, he won’t win the nomination. The thing about good polls is that they are supposed to predict the future, even if they don’t get leaked.

      Personally, I find Trump 2024 to be pretty unlikely. Virtually everyone in the 2016 race on both sides was a swamp critter and people were sick and tired of politicians being political. It is hilarious to see how many liberals were whining about the seeming inevitable matchup between a Clinton and a Bush (folks on the right were also whining about it, but it is more hilarious in hindsight to see folks who today have TDS were begging for “anyone but Bush or Clinton”).

      DeSantis has proven that he can push back against hit jobs and forcefully advocate for his ideas without getting into Twitter pissing matches. Obviously, it is a long time before the next election, so who knows how things will shake out and what real scandals will turn up, but Trump will face different candidates and electorate than in 2016, that are unlikely to be to his advantage.

      1. I would agree that the former President is unlikely to get the nomination in 2024. Republican candidates in 2016 did not address candidate Trump soon enough and that cost them in the end. I think many Republican and Democrats had a hard time figuring out how to address candidate Trump. Joe Biden seemed to hit the right notes in 2020. Play your hand and don’t let the competition distract you. That could well be repeated by Republicans looking for the nomination in 2024.

        1. No he didn’t. He just had the entire media shilling for him, and as many phony votes printed up for him as needed.

          Biden didn’t do a damn thing.

          1. You missed the point, Mark.

            Biden didn’t need to do anything in response to trump. Trump’s whole shtick is trolling people and getting free media coverage for it. By not engaging, Biden allowed Trump to just embarrass himself and didn’t have to be drawn j to it. People just wanted to vote for a guy who was going to do the job. The clown show lost the election for himself, Biden didn’t have to do anything besides ignore Trump to win.

            1. “…People just wanted to vote for a guy who was going to do the job…”

              “…[G]oing to do the job…”? The job of instituting the GND? The job of redistributing huge amounts of wealth? The job of demolishing the peace Trump managed to achieve in the Near East?
              The job of getting fucking TDS-addled pieces of shit like you to poast lies like this?

              1. Haha. Let me guess, there was a vast conspiracy between tens of thousands of poll workers to commit fraud in the election that no one has discovered, right?

                Seeing trump apologists pretend to be libertarians on this site is amazing.

                1. Guess all you please, TDS-addled piece of shit. I don’t have to guess; your obsession is now part of your identity.Trump is now your satan in your low-rent religion.
                  Fuck off and die.

            2. You’re the one missing the point. The vote was rigged from many different states and in many different ways. It’s unbelievable on it’s face that a sitting president receives 12 million more votes as an incumbent than he did when elected the first time, and still gets best. As in completely unprecedented.

              It’s also quite unbelievable that a doddering stiff like Biden got a bigger turnout than Obama when he got elected. Which is widely considered a once in a lifetime election turnout. It doesn’t track. This is the same Biden who couldn’t fill a school gymnasium when he did creep out from his basement. While Trump was sold out at giant stadiums.

              It doesn’t track, because it was a bullshit election.

              1. It’s also unbelievable that the doddering stiff got all those votes while his party lost several Congressional seats – if you assume that Democrat-run big cities weren’t stealing votes. Such vote-stealing mostly affects statewide races – for the House of Representatives and state legislatures, Democrats would have won most of the city districts anyway, and city machines couldn’t steal votes in the rest of the state.

          2. Also, enough with the dumbass lies about printing votes. If you’re still on that nonsense conspiracy, head over to OAN and leave the adults alone.

            1. “…leave the adults alone.”

              Please do the same.

      2. DeSantis makes the most sense. Like you said, he pushes back on hit jobs without getting into silly pissing matches. May well be he’s everything people hoped Trump would be, plus somewhat principaled and minus so much of the baggage that came with Trump. The Trump wing would do well to migrate away from him and toward DeSantis. Trump needs to play it out like a passing of the torch because I doubt he will do better against Biden in 2024, save for the mainstream media breaking the wagon circle they’ve formed around Biden and actually reporting on some of his leadership failures and his family’s self-dealing. If Trump is smart and actually wants something close to his political platform to succeed, he will take a knee. I just don’t think he has the ability to set aside his ego enough to do that.

        1. “DeSantis makes the most sense. Like you said, he pushes back on hit jobs without getting into silly pissing matches.”

          You must not live in Florida. In late February, a pop up vaccine site was opened in an affluent senior development

          “Anyone in Manatee [County], if they don’t want us doing it, then just tell us, and we’ll make sure that we send those doses to folks who want it,” DeSantis said in response to county commissioners who asked why the “whitest and richest” portions of the county were able to access more doses than other areas.

          Whether the criticism of DeSantis’s decisions regarding vaccine distribution were invalid or not, that certainly qualifies as a pissing match, as it actually sounded almost like a threat. “Shut up or we’ll give the doses to someone that won’t complain.”

          Then there was the recent decision by him and his office to limit the press coverage of him signing Florida’s new voting law to Fox News. Even if that didn’t violate the First Amendment to restrict access to a public, official event to a favored press outlet, it is still wrong to have done so.

          DeSantis is definitely smarter than Trump, but without the outrageousness, he might not be able to command quite the same level of enthusiasm. But there is also no doubt that he follows in Trump’s footsteps in one important way. He acts like he only works for those that support him, rather than all citizens.

  22. Wow, what an all-star lineup———-NOT. I don’t think they could fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I did not even consider any of them before and I am dismissing them now as never, never, never vote for these guys. All they want is like every other politician on the left, POWER and who know what wars these neo-cons (emphasis on cons) would get us into. I digress but it will not happen in my lifetime.

  23. These guys should just take over the Libertarian Party. They seem to share the same never Trump goals. One of them was even running as an LP and voted for Hillary.

    BTW if anyone is going to be conversing with George Will, Super Conservative, ask him who he voted for in 2016 and 2020.

    1. Well since there were no conservatives running I doubt it matters much.

      1. That evasion was stupid even by your standards.

    2. Warhawkism is a deal breaker with libertarians.

      1. Except for their sudden love of Liz Cheney.

        1. That 15 minutes has already passed.

  24. Well, let’s see. We still have a pandemic going on, core inflation just had the highest month-to-month gain since 1981, unemployment figures were a massive negative surprise, homicides in US cities have shot up over the last year, and the Democrats, with trifecta control of Federal policy-making, are working on a massive tax-and-spend plan.

    If in the face of all that your priorities as a Republican Congressional leader are so screwed up that you’re spending time attacking a man who has no governmental or political office, no time on any mainstream media outlet, and is not even a major social media personality anymore, yeah, see, it’s entirely appropriate for sane people to remove you from your position of leadership.

    And if your reaction to the sane people removing a deranged idiot from a position of leadership is to talk about launching a new political movement, you are making it obvious that people should write you off as just another deranged idiot.

    1. This. Liz was running towards the Cliffs of Irrelevancy the way she was acting. Not to mention her beef with Trump had nothing to do with the election and everything to do with her resistance against Trump ending the war in Afghanistan that her dad helped start.

    2. He may have no official office, but please, spare us the pathetic obfuscation, he is the head of the Republican Party. The Republican Party literally abandoned their policy platform document in 2020 in favor of “whatever trump says.”

      Quit being dishonest. Everybody sees right through it.

      1. “He may have no official office, but please, spare us the pathetic obfuscation, he is the head of the Republican Party. The Republican Party literally abandoned their policy platform document in 2020 in favor of “whatever trump says.”…”

        Yes, he has no office, but that in no way prevents TDS-addled lefty assholes like you from inventing all sorts of fantasies to justify their idiocy.
        Proud of your obsession, TDS-addled piece of shit?

      2. Yeah, sure, “Head of the Republican Party”, in the same sense that Bob Dole was in May, 1997. No party money, no party staff, no authority in the party, and no relevance.

        Only the pathetic, the deranged, the obsessed, and the idiotic are still talking about Trump.

  25. The true alternate party has existed for decades and is on ballots in all fifty states.

    The Obama Cult wielding the powers of big government should have scared at least 1/3 of voters into the Libertarian Party to deny a cult of crazies such power.

    The Trump Cult wielding the powers of big government should have scared at least another 1/3 of voters into the Libertarian Party to deny a cult of crazies such power.

    But the old religion underlying both the Obama and Trump cults is the Statism Cult, the death cult that should scare everyone.

    “The more power a government has, the more it can act arbitrarily according to the whims and desires of the elite and murder its foreign and domestic subjects. The more constrained the power of governments, the more power is diffused, checked and balanced, the less it will aggress on others and commit democide. … In total, during the first eighty-eight years of this century, almost 170 million men, women, and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed, or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed, or killed in any other of the myriad ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is as though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not of germs.”
    ~ Rudolph J. Rummel

    1. The Libertarian Party is an alternative but they can’t campaign for shit.

      1. They don’t know how to explain their ideas well.

      2. They often compromise on the actual libertarianism (they say this is done to help expand the party and attract people new to libertarianism but at the same see point 1).

      3. They’ve run some very poorly prepared candidates and one guy for VP who had no business being the vice face of the party. Oddly enough he’s now joined this new venture with a CIA spook and it’s basically just a Neocon/permanent government charade/dollar grab. JoJo would have been a decent candidate but she turned a lot of people off when she tweeted calls for everyone to be “Antiracist” which made it sound like she was more focused on promoting CRT (a pretty abhorrent ideology) than she was on promoting actual libertarian ideas.

    2. “…But the old religion underlying both the Obama and Trump cults is the Statism Cult, the death cult that should scare everyone…”

      Your TDS managed to get out of your ass; please stuff it back in so your head has some company.

  26. Any true lover of liberty would advocate the shutting down of the CIA…and stop the foreign interventions…nope not Evan and Bill Weld..never

    1. When we get rid of the CIA, will Russia and China stop conducting covert operations against the US out of a sense of sportsmanship, do you think?

      1. Shitstain here is frightened that Russia or China gives a shit about him.

  27. Pretty sure Sullum sees these guys as a viable alternative. He’s spent the last week sucking neocon dick.

    1. Sullum used to say meaningful things. Every week now he erases years of credibility.

      I’m assuming it’s something along the lines of kids in college combined with no other job prospects…

  28. Oh yeah. Goes together like pickles and ice cream. Or Pat Boon’s cover of Enter Sandman.

  29. Not likely that hawks and libertarians will get along.
    But the future political power in the country will be a coalition of Mormons and Mexican-Americans and quiver-full fundamentalists, since they are the only ones having kids.

  30. Bill Kristol… Jeff Flake, Howard Schultz, John Kasich… George Conway, Jennifer Horn, and Mike Madrid… Bill Weld, Joe Walsh, Mark Sanford…”

    If you’re going to have enemies, these posturing elitist clowns are the ones that you want. An entire movement can be discredited just by having one of those names attached.

    “The Lincoln Project, a political action committee of former GOP political operatives that raised scores of millions of dollars from Democrats to run anti-Trump ads in 2020. The project has been dogged by all kinds of scandal and controversy, particularly after the election was safely delivered to Biden.”

    That’s an evasive way of saying that they were fucking underage boys.

    1. Way to dodge the issue of your support for trumps brand of authoritarianism. But I bet you claim to be a libertarian, right? I’ll take Kasich every day of the week over Trump, Greene, and the other sycophants.

      Hahaha

      1. “…I’ll take Kasich every day of the week over Trump, Greene, and the other sycophants…”

        We fully understand TDS-addled pieces of shit.

      2. How many people died of the coof in your elderly care facilities last year?

  31. I think you do a disservice by just lumping Mormons as completely incompatible with the other two groups, as Mormons are in themselves libertarian leaning conservatives.

    They come by their libertarian nature honestly, in that the State of Missouri ordered Mormons to be exterminated and took their land. They then Fled to what was deemed uninhabitable Mexico territory to flea government oppression. Then the US claimed that territory later and literally sent the largest military force since the civil war to “put down the Mormon Insurrection” (google the “Utah War” for some fascinating US history)

    As such they don’t trust government, they sure as hell have issues with religious based litmus tests on immigration (hence why Trump pissed them off early).

    As for tolerance of bodily autonomy and choices, even though Polygamy is very much illegal in the state, they look the other way (on all the fringe offshoots that make Mormon’s look bad) unless their is abuse involved, Salt Lake has more strip clubs than left leaning cities of comparable size, and they opened up to medical MJ (and even the Mormon Church got onboard with it). So while they certainly live extremely uptight lifestyles, they recognize more than some places that people can make their own choices. They are also far more pro immigration than most of your other conservative groups.

    Basically, most Mormons when discussing it reasonably will find themselves leaning a bit to the libertarian side. Obviously they will never be in favor of abortion as they see that as murder. But if a libertarian views abortion as murder, they too are logically consistent to be against it. So that has never been a good litmus test of a “True Libertarian”

  32. This splinter group isn’t much threat to the Republican Party. The American electorate, however, seems destined to crush the Republican Party.

    America becomes less rural, less religious, less White, less backward, and less bigoted each day, as cranky old clingers take obsolete, ugly Republican thinking to the grave and are replaced in our electorate by younger, better, modern Americans.

    Conservatives for decades could rely on voters “aging into” Republican registration as they acquired spouses, mortgages, children, and investments. But how many people are likely to wake up one morning in their 30s and decide ‘OK, as of today, I’m a bigot’ or ‘You know what, I think it’s time to start making childish superstition a major part of my life?

    Sentient Republicans understand this — that is why their electoral coalition is desperate and disaffected.

    Against this background, the Republican Party must change or die.

    I vote “die.”

    1. “…I vote “die.””

      Please do; make your family proud and give your dog a place to shit.

    2. But won’t it be fun living through their last hurrah, the presidency of Marjorie Taylor-Greene, an entire government formed via the suppression of democracy, and ensuing hilarity?

      I wonder which American city she will nuke first, Chicago or LA.

      1. If we have a ‘last hurrah’ your continued existence will likely not be tolerated. So please, keep pushing.

    3. Thus spake the irrelevant tryhard from his fairy tale bubble.

      Must be terrifying that even ‘someone like Trump’ can attract so many votes. What if I told you the reason for that is that this is not surprising if they oppose impotent losers like you?

      Aggressively bigoted leftists like you will make sure the Republicans will stay attractive forever, no matter what they do.

    4. In flying by, I think there’s something even more important here:

      Aggressively bigoted, peer-pressure loving fanatics like you actually help increase the popularity of fascism as a means to oppose the randomness of the left. And this certainly wouldn’t be fascism of the flavor you want, so save your Viagra.

  33. The number one predictor of support for trump, more than education level, socioeconomics, and demographics, was support for authoritarianism.

    It’s hilarious to see lots of trumpers claim to be libertarians when all they really are is stuck in a personality cult for trump the deranged loser who is the polar opposite of libertarianism.

    1. “The number one predictor of support for trump, more than education level, socioeconomics, and demographics, was support for authoritarianism…”

      TDS-addled pieces of shit like this TDS-addled piece of shit *always* post lies like this, and as a result of being lies, they never post any evidence.
      In fact, they are simply a symptom of the TDS-addled piece of shit’s obsession.

      1. You wouldn’t know evidence if it were your cousin. And you know your cousin.

        Do you really think Donald Trump is a wise, good leader? I mean think about it. His entire career was pretending to be good with money and grabbing teenage tits. What do you think happened over the last five years, peace and prosperity?

        1. “…And you know your cousin…”
          No, but it’s certain the shitstain here KNOWs his cousin, likely his brother, certainly any male in you extended family.
          I really don’t care about the erotic fantasies of fucking lefty ignoramuses.

      2. You’re really proving my point about being stuck in a personality cult…

        1. “You’re really proving my point about being stuck in a personality cult…”

          And, as a TDS-addled piece of shit, you’re doing a good job displaying the obssession of TDS-addled pieces of shit.

  34. The posturing by these folks and Third Way to create a third party seems certain to guarantee Trump his 40% and split the anti-Trump vote between Biden supporters and those who held their nose for him last time.

    I am interested in seeing data to shed light on the many anecdotes of people abandoning Trump, including the very people who stormed the capitol in his name.

    1. “…the very people who stormed the capitol in his name.”

      Shitstain here has still not learned to spell “protested”. You have to expect that of a fucking lefty ignoramus.

      1. Don’t fascist-fuck language in my presence, please.

        1. Shitstain here has still not learned to spell “protested”. You have to expect that of a fucking lefty ignoramus.

          1. I understand, Sevo. Black people engaged in a street protest are “looting.” White people engaged in a violent assault on the heart of democratic government are “protesting.”

            Yes, I do know how people get put into ovens. It’s not the guns or army, it’s leaflets and Facebook.

            1. TDS addled lefty shit thinks whatever bullshit he posted is of interest to someone. Anyone.
              Fuck off and die.

              1. I would be more than happy to listen to your story instead.

                I’d find that rather fascinating.

                Must be hard to be on the spectrum and on the farm, huh? Did you spend so much time studying udders and such you never learned how to get friends?

                I’ve got all the sympathy in the world, bub. I mean, I’ve always had many friends, but it just so happens that one of my obsessive fixations is having friends. Having friends, knowing the entire Tchaikovsky repertoire to the note, it’s all the same to me.

                Just remember, the people telling you that you’re not normal are people who have limited their conception of normal only to what they understand: the gossip and rituals of other people. Just between you and me, it’s all so boring, isn’t it?

                Those are not the people who write great symphonies or make you cry as Hamlet or invent quantum mechanics. Those are all “abnormal” people because they didn’t have a firm handshake.

                Fuck the jocks. They sell used cars now.

                1. TDS addled lefty shit thinks whatever bullshit he posted is of interest to someone. Anyone.
                  And seems to be disturbed that I don’t.
                  Fuck off and die.

                2. Ton, you’re too stupid and deluded to follow anything you’re told outside of the prog palm joked down your throat daily by your prog master.

  35. It’d be pretty good if Trump succumbed to the chicken grease in his aorta sometime soon. Yeah I think that would be a pretty clean break for us.

    There’s a reason the leader of North Korea has to be named Kim. It can’t be just some general.

    Then President Don Jr. can show us what a real fascist is capable of. You can be a dumb bigoted piece of human trash, but to really start tossing people into camps at scale, it takes amphetamines.

    1. “…Yeah I think that would be a pretty clean break for us…”

      TDS-addled piece of lefty shit assumes his obsession is widely shared.
      Lefty ignoramuses are stoooooopid that way.

    2. I remember when It was Hillary’s turn to be a senator, for no other reason than sucking Bill Clinton off.

      You might as well make Gisele Bündchen an NFL quarterback for sucking off Tom Brady, if that’s how it works.

      1. Of all the unqualified lunatics in public office, you go for Hillary Clinton, who was more prepared to be a national officeholder than every single Republican who ever lived, even despite the fact that she has a vagina.

        Whatever dude. Get your news from better places, all I can say.

        1. I’m sure she was a great president in counter-factual world.

          1. After she wiped the hard drive…

        2. And then we get this:
          “Whatever dude. Get your news from better places, all I can say.”
          As if shitstain EVER got “news” from other than agit-prop sources:
          “WaPo’s Sullivan urges media to abandon ‘neutrality’ in Trump reporting”
          https://www.aim.org/don-irvine-blog/wapos-sullivan-urges-media-to-abandon-neutrality-in-trump-reporting/
          There’s more and shitstain deserves every bit of shit wiped across his face. And more.

        3. More prepared to sell out office for profit maybe. Other than that, what are her accomplishments as either senator or as SoS?

          1. What were Donald Trump’s as a game show host?

          2. Well, she managed to ice our diplomatic relations with Russia so completely that, at least as she tells it, the Russians decided to interfere in the US presidential election to make sure they never had to deal with her ever again.

            Of course, the stated intent of her “reset” effort was to make our relationship with Russia less hostile and adversarial than it was under Condoleezza Rice, but an accidental accomplishment is still an accomplishment.

  36. Our government has a systemic bias against third parties. Hence, by critical theory, libertarians are a marginalized group.

    I’m sure we’ll see a push to reform that any day now, out of the deep, deep sense of equality and the inherent good of power balance.

    1. The systemic bias is built into the rules. Sign me up, if we’re going to be changing the election laws in this country. Maybe somebody can get elected president by winning an actual majority of votes every time instead of only occasionally.

      But I thought it was clear by now that libertarians struggle because they don’t offer popular ideas. You want to give more power to bosses and less to workers. Make poor people pay more taxes relative to rich people. Take away laws that protect the basic needs of the poor, but leave intact all the ones that protect even the most frivolous luxury of the rich. Tell me more about your deep love of equal opportunity.

      They never really caught on even as they were mashed up with the Jesus crap. Now Trump comes along, takes the culture war for himself, and leaves the plutocratic looting to the remaining Koch… and those of you who inexplicably work for his interests for free.

      1. TDS addled lefty shit thinks whatever bullshit he posted is of interest to someone. Anyone.
        Fuck off and die.

        1. If everyone hates me, why are you sucking my cock?

          Woah flashback to freshman year. There’s nothing like a good nemesis beej.

          1. “If everyone hates me, why are you sucking my cock?”

            You wish, loser.

            1. I like a perfunctory game of Scrabble first.

              1. Are you capable of any other level of performance than perfunctory?

            2. TDS addled lefty asshole assumes his erotic fantasies are of interest to anyone other than his cousins.
              TDS-addled lefty shit is an ignoramus.

      2. The USA doesn’t have a big appetite for libertarianism in the same way Nazi Germany didn’t have a big appetite for libertarianism.

        I really feel no desire to become an asshole just because it’s popular.

        1. And as we all know, the defining characteristic of Nazi Germany was its universal healthcare system.

          I still don’t know what kind of freedom you’re selling if it doesn’t involve roads or literacy. Is it a kind of Emersonian thing, except minus the literacy?

          1. TDS addled lefty shit thinks whatever bullshit he posted is of interest to someone. Anyone.
            Fuck off and die.

          2. In my version of freedom, people have roads and can read.

            1. lol yea that’s not Stalins versions, sorry.

  37. I see the removal of Liz Cheney to be good for the Republican Party. I also believe that replacing her with a less conservative Elise Stefanik is good for the party.

    Trump started the transformation of the Republican party from elitist to more working class. He did it with brute force and without any elegance. He was did not have any ideological clarity so there is still a journey that needs to take place.

    Having a less conservative and less warmongering #3 is a step in the right direction. There is still a long way to go.

    With the rampant spending of Joe Biden, The Republican party will naturally become relatively more fiscally responsible than the Democrats (even though Republicans are highly fiscally irresponsible too).

    There is more of an opportunity to pick up moderate freedom loving liberals and moderate freedom loving conservative with less hard line opinions of Liz Cheney.

  38. Those people attracted to such concepts as truth, reason, “free minds,” and “free markets”

    Yes, but we have been lied to often enough by people who claim to espouse those principles, spill plenty of ink about them, but when push comes to shove side with authoritarians and progressives.

    Reason itself is an instance of that. It took a while to figure out that it was a fraud, nothing more than a media and fundraising initiative, but we won’t be fooled again.

  39. A Hawk, a Mormon and a Libertarian walk into a bar.

    This article is the punchline.

  40. Bill Weld, a man who stinks of betrayal and failure so badly that not even Libertarians want to be seen around him…. but Evan McMullin still will, which should tell you something.

    1. Thank you for sharing.

  41. patterned consciously after the Declaration of Independence

    Thomas Jefferson came back to life just so he could slit his wrists over that comparison.

  42. We have a two party system in the United States mostly because of how we hold elections: First-past-the-post in single-member districts. (And with 48 states and D.C. giving all of their Electoral Votes for President to the plurality winner of the whole state.) The incentives just aren’t there for either the voters or candidates to try and go outside of the two-party system with only a couple of exceptions. A party that could attract even 20% of a jurisdiction would still have no chance of anything other than playing spoiler.

    It’s really a catch-22. If a minor party could start to attract a large enough segment of the electorate, more voters might be willing to give it a chance. But few voters are going to do that before it has already shown that it has at least an outside shot of winning. The same goes for the wealthy donors and deep pocketed special interests that fund campaigns (and ‘independent’ spending). They aren’t going to throw significant amounts of money at candidates of minor parties with no real chance. Then there is the quality of the candidates themselves. Few candidates with the combination of knowledge, skills, and background story that voters find appealing are going to waste their chance on running for a minor party if they don’t have a realistic chance of winning.

    And all of that is before you even begin to start talking about policy or ideology.

    The two party system fell into place and locked in over a century ago, with only a couple of very temporary challenges to that paradigm. I think that it is just too deeply baked into how our government is structured and elections are run for that to change.

  43. I post every now and then when these speculations about “third parties” are offered to say, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. The reason is that the Libertarian Party has NEVER devoted any serious resources to push for voting reform. Without changing the voting system, Duverger’s Law decrees we’re stuck with a two-party system. I left the Libertarian Party precisely over this issue in 2002. Here’s the explanation:
    http://paulhager.org/libertarian/why_i_left.htm

    The above article discusses Condorcet Voting and why Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) is a non-reform that is functionally worst than the present system. Note: These days I call Condorcet “Instant Round Robin” (IRR) voting to describe how it works. In talks I also explain why IRV, though emulating a totally legal runoff system, is actually illegal itself because it denies voter intent and voting rights by DISCARDING LEGITIMATE VOTES.

    It has become clear that my giving talks on this over the years has done bupkis. Accordingly, having retired from the Civil Service this past December, I am no longer barred from the Hatch Act from pursuing partisan office. Therefore, I’m seriously contemplating running for the GOP nomination for Indiana Secretary of State. The Secretary of State is responsible for enforcing voting law in the state. My platform will be the adoption of the ranked voting system known as Condorcet. I’m going to dump some serious money into this campaign if I actually run and solicit donation from in and out of state.

    Incidentally, I’d recommend studying the VA GOP’s use of IRV to select their Gubernatorial Candidate in a field of seven. This was a total Charlie Foxtrot and will prove to be fairly typical of IRV in action. To tally the roughly 12,500 delegate ballots took nearly a week. Why should it have taken this long? IRV is a bear to tally, when activated. It MUST be taken to a central location because the discard process must be done all at once – there is no way to exploit parallelism because the discard order for all ballots must be ascertained as a single batch operation. Since IRR (Condorcet) actually uses a simple algorithm its easy to tally, even by hand. Iin this case they could have used a 7×7 matrix and tallied the votes putting tick-marks in each of the for-against boxes. That would produce a master matrix in each of the 126 counties that could then be emailed in some secure fashion to the HQ where each matrix is added together. There is no question that EVEN by hand, IRR would have given a result that night. Even better, it would be easy to publish the results to show who won. Because of IRV’s manifold problems, we have no idea who the preferred candidate really was. I’d give even odds that the guy who won was not the preferred candidate – that is the “Condorcet Winner” or the “true majority winner” or the candidate “who beats all others”. So, aside from the fact it is the only mathematically CERTAIN way to determine who the voters favor among 3 or more candidates, it is much easier to implement AND make it easy for independent auditors to look at the ballots and verify them. Given the problems we’re having with vote integrity, IRV is going in totally the wrong direction.

  44. “…Therefore, I’m seriously contemplating running for the GOP nomination for Indiana Secretary of State. The Secretary of State is responsible for enforcing voting law in the state. My platform will be the adoption of the ranked voting system known as Condorcet…”
    Living in CA, it is very easy to see how ‘ranked’ voting (pure democracy!) has disenfranchised those who do not vote D (leading to the claim there are few non D voters).
    Please explain how what you propose is other than the mob rule CA has.

    1. Good question. “Ranked Voting” means using a ranked ballot but it doesn’t say anything about how the results are tabulated. Everywhere the term “ranked choice” is used, it refers to IRV. The people pushing IRV deliberately confuse the issue because they are so invested in this defective Australian system.

      Just looking at a ranked ballot tells you nothing about how the votes are tabulated. It’s rather like having two expensive sports cars that look the same in every way. However, one of them has a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower motor under its hood, the other has a 600 HP racing engine under its hood. It really is that different. IRV is the lawnmower, IRR is the 600 HP behemoth.

      At present, I’m still working on converting my talk into something suitable for Youtube. In the meantime, I’d recommend people check out CIVS – The Condorcet Internet Voting Service. The guy who runs it is a Computer Science prof at Cornell.

      BTW, I made a mistake concerning the VA tally. There were 59,000 potential voters and that’s where the time estimate came from. It actually took a couple of days. Still a ridiculous amount of time. The most populous county was a little over 1,000 voters. A master tally could easily be done in a couple of hours with pencil and paper, and each “teller” could compare their respective counts. Better would be to enter into a spreadsheet and use the free software available from CIVS.

  45. Thank you for this information. It helped me a lot.

  46. Thank you for sharing this information.

  47. There are plenty of valid criticisms of Trump, but there is nothing appealing about unhinged warmongers who can’t get over their emotional problems.

  48. One addendum. I was in an organization call Better Angel’s from the Summer of 2018 until late last year. It was comprised of nominally Republicans and Democrats or “Reds” and “Blues” (I never figured this out, shouldn’t leftists be “Reds”??) or Conservatives and Liberals. However labeled, the idea was to address the polarization in American Politics by getting people to talk with each other. I was sort of drafted into participating by a Republican buddy of mine. I am in the GOP but I function as a little “l” libertarian, so I was somewhat the odd-man-out on a number of issues discussed by the group.

    In any case, early on I said that while the goal was admirable, the approach being advocated was doomed to failure because this is actually a mathematical problem and no amount of good intentions or talking in their prescribed way was going to solve the problem. Basically, in a very nice way, I said to people, you are basically pissing up a rope. About the only positive thing about this was that I did introduce a number of people to Condorcet – at least one Democrat and a couple of Republicans. As a result, I got to do a presentation to the County Election Commission on 19 July 2018. Here’s a link:
    https://catstv.net/government.php?issearch=govt&responsive=2&webquery=&searchonly=&minyear=2018&minmonth=6&maxyear=2018&maxmonth=7&meeterid=139
    I’m introduced around the 28:45 point. I spoke only a few days after a laparoscopic hernia operation and my hoarseness is a remnant from the tube down my throat. The paper being discussed is what I submitted to the Senate Commission on Elections earlier that year.

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