Immigrants: Is to Know them To Love Them?

Interesting addendum to Matthew Feeney's observations and thoughts on Switzerland's anti-immigration referendum from earlier today, via Bryan Caplan:

Swiss anti-immigration voting was highest in the places with the least immigrants!  This is no fluke.  In the U.S., anti-immigration sentiment is highest in the states with the least immigration - even if you assume that 100% of immigrants are pro-immigration.

…..The main hurdle to further immigration is insufficient immigration.  If countries could just get over the hump of status quo bias, anti-immigration attitudes would become as socially unacceptable as domestic racism…

Reason's 2006 classic package on immigration.

Comments

[playa manhattan]

Gun control activist arrested for illegally carrying gun at elementary school

You can't make this stuff up.

[Paul.]

Not the first time. One of the women who organized the Million Mother March against Guns was busted for weapons violations.

I came to conclude years ago that most rabidly anti-gun people are in fact the people you least want to have guns.

[playa manhattan]

If they don't trust themselves with guns, I don't either.

[Tejicano]

I'll never forget how one of Teddy Kennedy's personal security team was caught with an UNREGISTERED machine gun at a DC airport - and nothing else happened.

[Paul.]

A battalion of cops quickly swarmed the school. The brigade included over a dozen squad cars, the SWAT team and K9 units

Let the statists feel the boot.

[playa manhattan]

Interestingly, it was triggered by a "pair" of anonymous 911 calls.

This guy deserves every bit of this, and he's gonna get fucked by the law that he helped to pass.

[Mickey Rat]

"If countries could just get over the hump of status quo bias, anti-immigration attitudes would become as socially unacceptable as domestic racism..."

Another class of thoughtcrime. Great.

[Hawk Spitui]

Well, that's what it means to be free - you're free to be a liberal!

Get with the program, already!

[Tony]

Liberals don't support government policing of social acceptability. Society manages all on its own.

[Mickey Rat]

That's rich.

Liberals don't support suing bakers for refusing to bake cakes for events they are opposed to?

[Michael Ejercito]

Did Westboro Baptist sue a baker for refusing to bake a "God hates Fags" cake?

[seguin]

Maybe the dumbest thing you've said yet.

[paranoid android]

So you're implying that it's a bad thing that casual racism is unacceptable in our social discourse?

[Virginian]

You're not free unless you're free to be wrong.

[Tony]

You are free to be wrong. Racism up to and including KKK parades is constitutionally protected.

[PM]

Racism up to and including KKK parades is constitutionally protected.

Unless you want to engage in commerce.

[Mickey Rat]

I am saying that looking forward to people holding different views being shut down is totalitarian.

"Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

[paranoid android]

No one will torture you or strap a cage of rats to your face for expressing whatever vile opinions you feel like. How can you possibly compare state suppression of unfavorable beliefs with facing the reprobation of your peers?

[Virginian]

Well the question is just how free the culture as a whole is today. I'd argue that the state's dominance of the school system and higher education provides an enormous chilling effect on speech in the formative years of most people, and that this effect lingers throughout life. For essentially the first quarter of your life, you're under the eye of the State, and I don't agree with indoctrination, no matter how noble the cause is. Increased social tolerance is pretty much the only thing good thing they're indoctrinating the youth with in school. Mostly it's various flavors of state worship.

I always liked that one guy defending racist restaurant owners in the 60s. He said something like "The American people are entitled to their prejudices along with their principles"

[Mickey Rat]

"No one will torture you or strap a cage of rats to your face for expressing whatever vile opinions you feel like."

Yet.

[Tony]

So what level of passionate disagreement do you feel people should be forced not to reach in free discourse?

You're whining that you are criticized for your stupid beliefs. Why not fix the real problem? A lot less of a bother.

[Mickey Rat]

Blacklists for all!

[Mickey Rat]

I also find the insinuation that not being completely for open borders is the same as being a racist. Sorry, that's just intellectually dishonest and lazy.

[Cytotoxic]

Oh boo hoo people won't accept or humor your BS. Time for tears.

[Mickey Rat]

Rampant political correctness is just so conducive to a culture of free minds.

[pan fried wylie]

even if you assume that 100% of immigrants are pro-immigration

How does that....I don't even....

[Scarecrow Repair]

Think much recently? Needs practice to keep it working.

If you poll people how they feel about immigration, one obvious bias would be counting immigrants as pro-immigration. That phrase means not counting immigrants' views on the matter.

[Vampire]

Maybe individuals would be tolerant of immigration if they weren't robbed for the benefit of the immigrant. Why should an individual be extorted and forced to pay for the various subsidies, schooling and all the other programs that benefit those whom wish to come here?

As an immigrant, they are taking a risk leaving their current country, and going to a new one. When an immigrant sees that others will be forced to pay for them, they just might think others should be robbed in order for their family to come here as well, and will be sure to vote in the politician whom robs on their behalf as neither need to face any consequences for their actions.

Free individuals should be able to move about as they please. That is so long as they do not violate the liberty and property rights of others. There is only an immigration problem because the politicians created a monster by forcing folks to pay for others that wish to reside here.

How would a politician (or those whom advocate theft in order to pay an immigrants way) feel if someone took residence in their home, and forced them to pay for their food, clothing, private schooling and so on?

[Cytotoxic]

Maybe individuals would be tolerant of immigration if they weren't robbed for the benefit of the immigrant.

Well they aren't so...

[Hawk Spitui]

Sure thing! Public schools, emergency room medical care and public infrastructure are all free!

[Some call me Tim?]

Man, how are we going to get those dirty Mexicans to pay sales and gas taxes?!

[Cytotoxic]

And immigrants don't use them any more than natives.

[PM]

And immigrants don't use them any more than natives.

Generally true for legal immigrants, who can't get into the country with a masters in a STEM field. American engineers, chemists and programmers don't use welfare much either. Less than legal immigrants tend to use services at a higher rate, in the same way that American seasonal workers and high school dropouts tend to. (yeah, I know, immigrants can't collect welfare!, because TANF is the only welfare program offered in America)

Man, how are we going to get those dirty Mexicans to pay sales and gas taxes?!

Because that totally funds the services of the fedgov...

[MiloMinderbinder]

Alternative theory from the MR Comments:

Paolo February 10, 2014 at 5:05 pm

You are forgetting how small Switzerland is. Nearly the entire country is in commuting distance of the main centres Zurich, Basel, Geneva, or the secondary centres St.Gallen, Winterthur, Berne, Lausanne, Lugano, Neuenburg.

That Yes vote regions are where people are living who were pushed ever further away from the centres due to huge rise in housing costs. A lot of those rural-semi rural areas have had very high population growth rates in the last 10 years due to the influx of commuters looking for affordable housing space. Both the expansion of the rail net and the real estate price inflation in the centres have been big drivers of this trend.

The yes vote in those regions are both disgruntled commuters unhappy with being priced out of the centres and locals unhappy with the flood outsiders.

As to the No vote of the centres, that's no surprise. How can afford to live in the centres these days? Either people living in (subsidised) social housing or people earning enough to pay 4000+ CHF in rent or a million+ CHF to buy a flat. The first group aren't really feeling the price pressure and tend to follow the Social Party and Union paroles, while the latter by definition belong to the winners of the current situation who can afford to pay those prices.

[H. Protagonist]

Nice theory, but no consideration of the direction that causality runs (that immigrants move to areas that are more tolerant of immigration). So, meh. Weak effort from Caplan. I expect better.

[Cytotoxic]

immigrants move to areas that are more tolerant of immigration

Cite?

[H. Protagonist]

Wait, I'm supposed to have a citation? I'm not the GMU professor making the claim that "The main hurdle to further immigration is insufficient immigration."

Caplan needs to identify what direction causality runs before he makes that claim. It is also perfectly consistent with the data that immigrants move into areas that they are more welcomed in, and that "pro-restrictionist" native Swiss move out of areas that are accomodating to immigrants. But Caplan doesn't consider that, otherwise he's just wallowing in confirmation bias that he would decry in others.

I don't know the answer. Caplan claims he does. But he hasn't shown his work. I expect better.

[XM]

Immigrants move to metropolitan-ish areas where ethnic enclaves enjoy near autonomy. Basically, some place where the immigrant community is so entrenched that you don't have to speak much English or interact with anyone not of their own race (outside of work).

AMERICA is tolerant of immigration. You would know this if you spent a good amount of time anywhere else. "Oh come on, country X isn't so xenophobic, we're very international" Yeah, STFU, that's a lie.

Blue states are pro amnesty and will spend like drunken sailors in the name of "immigrants", but most immigrants settle there because or their entrenched community and prestige. If CA was like poorer parts of Canada or Alaska, no one would go there.

[Acosmist]

Bryan Caplan is not so much a source of insight as a source of point-and-laugh amusement on the issue of immigration. He's terrible at it.

I think citing him might be the equivalent of tipping your king over in chess. If so, I accept, Reason.

[RishJoMo]

Sammy SoSo says that aint gonna happen!

http://www.GoAnon.tk

[cheap kits]

here is only an immigration problem because the politicians created a monster by forcing folks to pay for others that wish to reside here.

[Cytotoxic]

.... but Europe is totally racist.

[Cytotoxic]

STFU American.

Dear Reason staff, poster 'Torky' is obviously serial troll 'American'. Please delete his posts.

[paranoid android]

I really wish that the words existed to get through to you. I truly wish it were up to my abilities to craft a reply to this nonsense so obliterating that you would have no choice but to sit there, head in your hands, weeping at the epiphany of what a nasty and sad person you are.

I have no illusions that it will work. The barriers you've constructed around your mind to ward off rational thought are likely impenetrable. But of course, the loss is yours--because while the people that you are so convinced you are superior to multiply and prosper all around you, the amount of space in which a spiteful little troglodyte such as yourself can comfortably exist will continue to shrink, and shrink, until it's just you, all alone, with just your hate to keep you company.

So have fun, enjoy yourself in the playground of your own delusions.

Because you'll never leave.

[Tony]

You are not entitled to be taken seriously!

[jesse.in.mb]

Doing a youtube search for "racist soccer fans" is delightful.

"When I see a banana on the field I think 'I'm not a monkey, I'm a human'" (A little under a minute in)

Italians throwing up the sieg heil salute while the French national anthem play(is it racist if they're all white?)

[Tony]

Good thing Libertopia will naturally lack trolls and other miscreants.

[PM]

Because removing griefer comments from a private comment board is exactly the same as government suppression of speech. Just like removing piss from your backyard swimming pool is exactly the same as the EPA.