Minimum Wage

Big Labor's Big Mac Attack!

Doubling the minimum wage for fast-food workers is delusional and counterproductive.


This story originally appeared at The Daily Beast on December 4, 2013. Read it there.

In what is probably the least inspired labor action since the great Detroit Symphony Orchestra Picket Line of 2011, groups such as the Service Employees International Union, Fast Food Forward, and Fight for 15 are calling for nation-wide wage strikestargeting McDonald's, Burger King, Arby's, and other latter-day Dickensian workhouses. On Thursday, protesters in over 100 cities will stand outside of fast-food joints and call for doubling the wages of burger flippers and fry-vat operators from $7.25 an hour (the current federal minimum) to at least $15.

Regardless of how much solidarity or sympathy you might feel about the people who assemble your Triple Steak Stack or your Cheesy Gordita Crunch, this sort of demand is economic fantasy at its most delusional and counterproductive. Doubling the wages of low-skilled workers during a period of prolonged joblessness is a surefire way not just to swell the ranks of the reserve army of the unemployed but to increase automation at your local Taco Bell.

If you're reading this on the job, take a look around and ask yourself if your workplace could soak up twice its labor costs without seriously trimming the number of employees. While you're at it, ask yourself if you're worth twice your current salary.Even the maverick economists who are challenging the conventional view that raising the minimum wage hurts low-skilled workers by pricing them out of the labor market typically study hourly pay increases on the order of 20 percent or less, not a doubling of rates. Even Barack Obama—who knows a thing or two about unemployment rates—is only talking about increasing the minimum wage by $1.75 an hour. (And let's be clear: Despite what the ideologically autistic Paul Krugman pronounces, the idea that mandating higher wages doesn't cause serious problems for low-skilled workers is far from settled.)

Arguably the most important thing in the debate about the minimum wage is that hardly anyone makes it.According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics less than 3 percent of all workers take home $7.25 or less an hour and half who do are 24 years old or younger. And the vast majority—77 percent —of minimum wage earners belong to households that are above the poverty line. So when Fast Food Forward declares, "We can't survive on $7.25!", the good news is that very few people have to (and to the extent that they do, their income is supplemented by anti-poverty programs such as the Earned Income Tax Credit, food stamps, and housing subsidies). Staying at the minimum wage is also usually mercifully short-lived. For instance, between 1977 and 1997, two-thirds of full-time workers had moved on to higher pay within a year.

None of this is to deny that times are tough for many of the people who sling hash in Hardee's and Pizza Hut. But there's a reason that a long feature story in the SundayNew York Times titled "Life on $7.25 an Hour" actually revolved around a man who not only has a job that pays $13 an hour but also owns a $500,000 house.

The push to hike fast-food wages is indicative not of a brutal new economy but of a labor movement that is not only disconnected from reality but also almost completely devoid of vision. Remember in the late 1980s and early 1990s when soothsayers were bitching and moaning about "McJobs" and the perils of becoming a "nation of burger flippers"? Back then, Big Labor was convinced that the North American Free Trade Agreement would export all but the most servile tasks down Mexico way (they were way, way wrong about that, by the way). Nowadays, the SEIU and other groups seem to see flipping burgers as positively aspirational.

It needn't be. While there is nothing wrong with any job, the simple fact is that nobody is going to get rich—or even comfortably middle class—if his or her main gig is punching the buttons at a McCafe. The skills necessary to work there are simply not that advanced to increase wages exponentially and the entire economy of fast food is based on keeping prices—and by extension, wages—relatively low.

Rather than focus on fast food, it would be smarter to focus where the jobs—and wages—are. There's something on the order of 3.7 million openings (about the size of the entire minimum wage workforce) in various trades ranging from construction to carpentry to ++electrical to welding. These are jobs that are not only in high demand but pay relatively high wages, often around the median household income of $51,000. Mike Rowe, the former host of the cable show Dirty Jobs, makes a compelling case that these are exactly the sort of gigs that can secure people steady work that allows for advancement and serious benefits.

When Thursday's protest comes and goes and things in the fast-food industry pretty much stay the same, perhaps the organizers at the SEIU, Fast Food Forward, and Fight for 15 will turn their attention in the direction of Rowe's profoundly disconnectedwebsite. Imagine the possibilities if such organizations actively promoted matching unemployed and underemployed people with businesses that have massive amounts of openings rather than trying to squeeze existing employers. That might even be a way for private-sector unions—whose membership has been declining for many years—to reinvent itself for the 21st century. Certainly it would be more promising than trying to squeeze more gold out of the Burger King.

When Thursday's protest comes and goes and things in the fast-food industry pretty much stay the same, perhaps the organizers at the SEIU, Fast Food Forward, and Fight for 15 will turn their attention in the direction of Rowe's profoundly disconnectedwebsite. It might do them—and the people for whom they're fighting—some good.

This story originally appeared at The Daily Beast on December 4, 2013. Read it there.

NEXT: Philadelphia Police Reviving Practice of Transporting Suspects Recklessly in "Nickel Rides," Lawsuits Allege

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  1. The people who advocate raising the minimum wage do not employ anyone, at least not with their own scratch. It’s either a cheap ploy for votes or complete economic ignorance.

    1. Sure they do. Proud left-wing publications like The Nation, The New Republic, and various left-wing PACs and think tanks proudly give unpaid interns the opportunity to fight for wage justice.

      1. They employ people at minimum wage? For the interns that would be an infinite raise. For the rest, it would be social justice.

        1. up to I looked at the draft ov $5321, I be certain that my mother in law was truley taking home money in their spare time from their laptop.. there best friend started doing this 4 only 20 months and just now took care of the morgage on their condo and got Lotus Esprit. see this,….




    2. I’m worth a million in prizes!

      Don’t forget Union contracts tied to the minimum wage.

        1. Jesus, that close up is horrifying.

          Long shot, no problem. That’s what I look like posting on a Friday night.

          But that close up… Holy shit.

  2. I look forward to the day that I can enter my order on an app, and drive up to a box and get my food. Or just drone-me a drone-produced burger.

    1. I was thinking that yesterday when we were discussing automation at fast food. You order/pay via your phone and just drive up to a window that has your meal sitting there for you.

      1. Actually the main draw for me is that I don’t have to actually interact with someone. Also I’m an Integer Orderer which makes it easier.

      2. Could call it an Automat or something.

      3. You can’t make machines feel guilty for not putting exactly three shots of non fat soy milk into my medium roast decaf coffee.

        A dopey and shy teenage human employee might say “I’m sorry, I’ll make you another one right away, and you can keep the old one.” Which totally happened to me more than once. Not likely happen in places like Japan, will happen here.

        But the machine will say “I’m sorry, but all sales are final. The manager is currently assisting other customers. Please call this number to register your complaint, your feelings are VERY important to us.”

    2. Meh, I would rather just print my burger from the comfort of my living room.

      1. If you can print a burger, why not print a porterhouse?

        1. I dunno… are we assuming that the raw materials that go into a printed porterhouse are more expensive? If not, I’ll just print a nugget of gold or a bitcoin and trade that in for a hundred steaks. Except I would have to get off my couch.

          1. Stick to the steak and gold. Bitcoins are just numbers, no physical manifestation (though you can buy coins backed by BTC.)

            Of course, what’s the difference in raw materials going into printing a steak vs. a burger? I’d suggest it’s more or less the same (maybe higher fat:meat ratio in the burger?) So if you can print steak, you can print burger.

            1. what’s the difference in raw materials going into printing a steak vs. a burger?

              The molecular program for a steak is more refined; any script kiddie can program a burger.

          2. Well, the steak can be printed from carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. Printing a gold coin requires gold.


        2. Because porterhouses suck.

          Why print anything other than the best cut which is a tenderloin steak ?

          1. Sometimes one wants a giant chunk of steak, with a redundant backup steak.

            Filet is a fine cut, too, but I think I’d go for 1 porterhouse vs. 3 Filet Mignon. I have to consider this further.

            That said, 3D printed burgers sound tasty enough right now.

              1. The Filet side of that porterhouse is truly great… But a ribeye is also excellent. And a properly marinated and prepared flank steak is excellent, as well.

                Truly, this requires more research. I’ll have to eat more steaks, in the name of science.

  3. How the hell did the Browns let the Patriots come back? Jesus, being a Browns fan must be brutal. At least the Seahawks are leading the Niners, if only by one (at this point).

    1. The refs fucked the Browns over hard on a bogus pass interference call.

      How is a potentially game-changing penalty like pass interference not reviewable?

      1. I have no idea. Ask the NFL. Regardless, bad calls happen to everyone at times. They’re no excuse. Win or don’t win, but don’t make excuses (not saying you are, it’s just that there are those *cough* Tulpa *cough* who will whine incessantly about a bad call as if it were in a vacuum).

        1. The Browns suck and are to blame for losing since they were unable to stop two Patriot touchdown drives and failing to recover an on-side kick by the Pats.

          But I’m just saying that that call was bad and it did have a major impact on the game and should thus be reviewable in that situation.

          1. MD Jennings will tell you that even on replay they get end-of-game calls wrong.

      2. Didn’t see the game. But, I THINK the reason p.i. is non-reviewable is because it’s more of a judgment call than, say, whether the ball crossed the goal line. Not saying I agree with that, just that I think that’s the reasoning.

      3. Yeah, the Pats got some bones thrown their way.

        Still, the on-side kick. Are you kidding me?

        1. Yeah, I thought it had to go 10 yards.

      4. All I have to say about the call is that I’ll trade you the victory over the browns for the loss against the Panthers.

        Sometimes it goes your way and sometimes it doesn’t.

      1. Poor Warty.

        1. Going to a Browns-Bears game next weekend. My girlfriend’s father is a Browns season ticket holder. It’s going to be fun watching two crappy teams freezing my ass off near Lake Erie.

          1. Fake your death.

    2. The officials gave the Patriots a Christmas gift pass interference penalty late the game.

      1. The Pats? Don’t you know there are people not earning a living wage somewhere?

    3. Football isn’t all that fun. It’s actually kinda like soccer in that you can drag out the inevitable by milking the clock and possession.

      I wouldn’t mind flag football, that would be fun to watch. I imagine there would be a lot of hip action.

  4. How can you worry about this when somebody, somewhere, thinks contraception should be illegal?

    1. And others think I should pay for theirs ?

  5. I bet Sarah Palin has a Baby Jesus in her front yard, and she’s forcing everybody to pray to it!

    1. I bet you’re stupid.

    2. Sounds like someone needs a visit from Thomas Thistlewood.

  6. How hard is it to cook at home?
    Fast food exists because of lazy people.

    1. lazy?

      Or maybe they just value their time over the small dollars those meals cost.

      1. Exactly. I love home cooked meals but sometimes one has more important things to do with the little time one has after work.

        1. It’s called comparative advantage. If your labor is worth $30 an hour, it makes no sense to prepare a burger yourself if someone else can do so, and more efficiently, for $10 an hour.

      2. And they don’t value their health at all.

        1. Eating fast food in moderation is not going to negatively affect your health.

          Eating home cooked meals and doing zero exercise will negatively affect your health. “Home cooked” does not necessarily mean healthy.

          1. You’re right , it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy.

            But fast food does necessarily mean it’s more than likely not healthy. Eating it regularly is necessarily less healthy than cooking food for oneself and family.

            Nothing in moderation is unhealthy unless it involves standing in front of a train. Or jumping on top of a hand grenade etc. etc.

            1. Everything in moderation. Especially moderation.

    2. Just made a beeee-youtiful vegetable broth. Can’t wait to make that risotto. For you epicurean cats out there, carnorali rice is best for a cracking risotto.

    3. Folks in Wisconsin have been saving time and energy with these. Enjoy! And you don’t have to worry about losing vital nutrients in the prep either.

    4. I can’t make my burgers taste like In-n-out.

      I can fry chicken at home, but they won’t taste like Colonel Sanders or General Tso.

  7. OT: ‘Oh, you are gonna shoot me’?

    Just before University of the Incarnate Word senior Robert Cameron Redus was fatally shot in a struggle with a UIW police officer Friday morning, a neighbor overheard what may have been his last words.

    “I heard (a man) say, ‘Oh, you’re gonna shoot me?’ like sarcastic almost,” said Mohammad Haidarasl, 22, who was on his couch in his ground-floor unit at the Treehouse Apartments in Alamo Heights at about 2 a.m.

    Less than a minute later, Haidarasl heard four to six gunshots.
    Pruitt said both vehicles, with Carter’s emergency lights on, drove north on Broadway until they pulled into the parking lot of the Treehouse Apartments at Broadway and Arcadia Place.

    Once in the parking lot, they both got out of their vehicles and became involved in a struggle, Pruitt said. The officer radioed for help during the struggle and Redus was shot multiple times.

    He was pronounced dead at the scene.

    Carter has been placed on paid administrative leave during the investigation, the university announced Friday afternoon. He was described by university officials as having an “extensive law enforcement background.”

    Over the course of Carter’s eight-year law career in Texas, he has held nine jobs at eight agencies, including two stints at the Bexar County Sheriff’s Office

    1. The officer radioed for help during the struggle

      Active voice

      and Redus was shot multiple times.

      Passive voice. Surely we know who shot Redus?!

      1. A gun, of course. It came to evil life and shot him all of its own accord. Because guns can do that.


        1. Uh, no? This was a government gun. Government guns don’t do that. Only civilian guns do.

          1. I’m still trying to figure out why my (10-round) 10/22 is less evil than my (5-round) M1A.

            1. There is no “why” to be explained. There is only FYTW, just obey.

            2. You should come to a state where you can feed your M1A 20 round magazines… Or sell it to me…

              1. Sell it to me so mine can have a twin brother. Mine is all lonely with nothing but FAL’s, AR’s, AK’s and a CETME to talk to. And I can feed it from a 30-round magazine as well.

                You can come and visit if you like.

                1. I figured a 30 stuck out too far from an M1A, it’s already too far on an AR15 to shoot prone.

                  1. Yeah, the 30-rounder would just be the first magazine if I needed to grab it and go with 20-rounders as re-loads in a BAR belt.

                    No problem shooting prone with a 30-rounder on an AR-15 (if it’s 5.56mm – AR-10 would be different). Just pull the off-hand elbow in a bit it the terrain doesn’t allow enough room. But then I have excessively long arms so that might make a difference.

                    1. Pulling your elbow in also raises your profile, making you a better target.

                    2. I’ll figure ways to deal with a profile which is 1 inch higher rather than have to change magazines so often. This isn’t a real world consideration.

              2. I’m not aware of a capacity limit here in Virginia. I’m just talking about attitudes.
                I’ve just always kept the standard 5-round mags because the higher capacity M1A mags don’t feed well for mine. I picked up a couple BX-25 mags for the 10/22 this summer. The Battle of the Bunnies (as my wife calls it) showed the first one will feed bulk .22LR ammo at 100%.

                1. I am assuming we are talking about some version of the Springfield Armory M-1A- right? That should feed just fine from regular, GI issue, 20-round magazines. There are some after-market and Korean made magazines that might produce problems – or dented lips could do this. But GI issue should work perfect.

                  I assume you are seating these magazines completely – doing this wrong can cause trouble.

                  1. Yep, an M1A from before they took the old M14 slot out of the stocks.
                    I have a shitload of the 5-round mags (still in original packaging) a gunsmith gave me for a buck a piece that he built up doing mods for mall ninjas. They work great. Slicker than snot on a doorknob.
                    The GI-issue mags are OK. And yes, the aftermarket crap is exactly that.

                2. Me us, I assumed there was nothing that wouldn’t feed in an m1a. I’d look more at ammo, assuming you’ve got reputable mags.

                  My stock 10/22 mags work fine, the 25 round banana mag is flaky.

                  1. My stock 10/22 mags work fine, the 25 round banana mag is flaky.

                    A friend would never give up on those terrible aftermarket 25-rounders. The new Ruger BX25 ran 100% all summer, even shooting cheap bulk Remington green box.

              3. Or sell it to me…

                My son would hunt me down for that.

                1. Surely some guy you’ve never met IRL on a we forums should be more important to you than blood.

                  But yes, I need to get me an M1A. AR15 is fun, but doesn’t have the same punch.

    2. It’s only extensive cause the fucking pig couldn’t hold a job longer than a year.


      1. Obviously, it’s just a guess, but it sounds like the shooter was a problem being passed around from department to department.

    3. “. . . He was described by university officials as having an “extensive law enforcement background.”

      Over the course of Carter’s eight-year law career in Texas, he has held nine jobs at eight agencies, including two stints at the Bexar County Sheriff’s Office”

      Is that what they’re calling ‘HR ignored numerous red-flags in his job history’ nowadays?

      1. 8 years is not an ‘extensive law-enforcement background’.

      2. 8 different employers in 8 years is not a sign of experience – its a sign of a problem employee.

    4. That kind of job record indicates this cop has issues. I would bet his record has all kinds of red flags. I grew up in a small town where everyone knows all the cops by name, and the bad ones with issues always seem to be at a new station every year or so. In fact the D-bag who lied his ass off to get me for a DUI (i blew a .09, and I am 6 foot 5 230) has had 4 jobs in 5 years. And his is now being sued for improper arrests.

  8. While you’re at it, ask yourself if you’re worth twice your current salary.

    Oh, absolutely. More than double. But the man with the checkbook doesn’t think so. He’d probably like to pay less if he could, so our compromise is the current paycheck.

    1. So instead of making $82 an hour for a couple of hours a day at your computer, you should be making $164?

      1. I think he’s poking fun at subjective valuations. I’m personally worth trillions, because I wouldn’t trade (say) sixty years of my life away for anything less than a near-infinite amount of material wealth to enrich the x years I’d be left. Pare that back to reasonable terms, such as trading an hour away at a time, and my valuation is still about as high as I can imagine. However, I’m willing to be argued down by the pool of interested employers and their competing bids. The intersection is where we strike a deal.

    2. So it’s market failure and injustice. Someone get me a bullhorn.

    3. “ask yourself if you’re worth twice your current salary”

      This demand to double wages is only part of the negotiating process. Both parties generally exaggerate their initial demands and come to agreement somewhere in the middle. The demand to double wages has the benefit of capturing people’s attention. Gets written about and discussed in the press. Good publicity for the union organizers.

  9. Surely we know who shot Redus?!


    1. several years ago in the small town in Virginia where I used to live, policed were called to a townhouse complex where a 15 year old girl was threatening suicide – so they shot and killed her. The story is she was threatening to use a knife on herself, and when a police got too close she tried to use it on him, so the other officers shot her.

  10. I’m probably not worth double right now, but definitely one and a half. Unfortunately we’re having to build up our client/project base after it getting decimated the last few years. But I’m willing to work my ass off to get there.

    Can’t say I believe the same holds true for these fuckers.

    1. Been there. I initially wrote a response but it ended up being a mini-biography of my experience at the bank and not getting paid what I was clearly worth.

      Long story short, I resigned, raised my daughter for three years while the wife worked and eventually started my own business.

      I make less but it’s great being my own boss.

      As for employees, that’s what they don’t get. If they want more hours AND wages, one of those two will get cut back because I sure as hell not gonna cut my pay to cover theirs.

      More often than not, they don’t have good excuses. It’s always ‘I have this to pay’ and “I want to buy a house.’

      I’m not here to subsidize your life, honey.

      1. honey?

        Is that anything like sugar britches?

        1. Sure?

        2. Pfft, quit being PC. The expression is “sugartits.”

          1. Finally someone who speaks English.

    2. “But I’m willing to work my ass off to get there.”

      Ever thought that if you joined a union, you could keep your gold bricking ass, and get paid a princely sum to boot?

      1. No. And even if I wanted to (which I never would) the government has deemed that architects/engineers can’t unionize.

    1. I dunno. It’s an interesting mechanic. He could make it reasonably challenging…if you’ve ever played “This is the Only Level” it’s an indication of how one little mechanic can make for an interesting game.

  11. So cop stories like the one I linked too explain why I acted the way I did last night when an Orange County Sheriff’s deputy approached my parked car.

    I had gone out with this girl I’m seeing. I’m parked outside her apartment and I’m about to get out and walk her to her door when the sheriff’s deputy sees us parked, pulls over, gets out and starts questioning me.

    Asking stuff like “What are you doing?” “Is there anything illegal in the car” “Do you both have your IDs?”

    And all I could think to do in that situation was cooperate and remain polite even though I had not done anything remotely suspicious. Because the consequences for asserting myself could very well have been arrest for contempt of cop or summary execution.

    1. It’s always best to be polite, and if there are no serious rights violations that may be occurring, aggressively asserting your rights is probably going to ruin your evening for very little gain.

      One must always choose one’s battles. Sounds like you chose not to have one last night because you wanted to finish your date and not go to jail. Seems like a good choice to me.

      1. By my nature I’m not a very confrontational nor do I tend to take things personally, so I wasn’t upset.

        The cop wasn’t rude, but he did waste 10 minutes of my time while he ran the plate number and asked me questions.

        After he was satisfied that I wasn’t a criminal he just said that we looked suspicious parked on a street at night in this particular neighborhood and advised me against doing it again in the future.

        1. Rt. (I think I’m gonna call you ‘Todd), I’m the same way. I think you did the right thing. The big picture was the evening with your gal.

          My father – despite being an anarchistic-fascist – always told me to never pick a fight with the government because they will win in the end, keep your head down around mafiosi (meaning don’t get too close) and always say please and thank you around cops.

          These people can fuck you up for no reason. If you’re innocent best to just be polite no matter how much it burns.

          1. I have had success, however, with a polite ‘Officer, can I please get your badge number?’
            Twice the officer in question found he was needed elsewhere just at that time.

        2. we looked suspicious parked on a street at night in this particular neighborhood

          Translation: he was bored and looking for someone to harass.


      2. the last time I was pulled over for speeding, several years ago, the office started with the standard line “do you know why I pulled you over”. Knowing I have a right not to incriminate myself, I said “I’m not sure”. It works most of them time, but this guy said “I think it bothers me more that you don’t know why I pulled you over”.

        I didn’t respond, but I could have said “With all due respect, sir, I have a very good idea why you pulled me over, but I have a right not to admit my guilt, and who knows, I may confess to something that you didn’t pull me over for! So please just issue me the citation.”

    2. Are you a white dude?

      1. How did that work out for Kelly Thomas?

      2. White Hispanic.

        1. That explains it. The OC Sheriffs academy practices a particularly nasty brand of institutional racism.

          1. Despite having a Hispanic last name I can easily ‘pass’ as white.

            1. I can relate. One of my closest buddies had the most Spanish of Spanish surnames but was turned down for any sort of minority scholarship because his forebears came directly from Spain.

              1. “S” instead of “Z”?

                1. Actually no change in spelling. But he was dark only in the Mediterranean sense so I guess somehow they sussed it out that he was just European. Even though he was carrying a 4.0 GPA they couldn’t find a “Hispanic” scholarship to throw his way.

    3. Sometimes I wonder which side of the Pacific is worse.

      Here in Japan there are no 4th amendment rights. Police can stop and search you any time just because they thought you might be up to something. This doesn’t happen often but it is always possible. On the other hand I have seen a guy screaming into the face of a Japanese cop because he got a (justifiable) parking ticket. The cop just stood there and took it.

      Police here are so scared to draw, much less shoot, their issue guns that there have been cases of cops being stabbed to death for their gun.

    4. Nothing. No. I do, she doesn’t. Am I being detained?

      I stood up to an Air Force cop a couple of months ago, but it isn’t really the same (my wife was furious at me). He tried to tell me I needed to take down my RADAR detector before coming on base. I schooled him on what the regulation ACTUALLY said (USE not possession is prohibited) and told him if he wanted to get his boss down here to discuss it I’d be happy to wait.

      He ran my plates and checked my shit. He told me he was doing so because questioning him was suspicious behavior and terrorists display suspicious behavior. I told him I know EXACTLY why he was fucking with me.

      I got fucked with, but the detector was on the dash when I drove away. Small victory.

      1. Yeah, only terrorists act suspicious. What a fucktarded thought.

        1. I’m quite certain a terrorist trying to get on an AF base would find it in his best interest to argue with the gate guard.

          No, he was telling me he could make shit up to fuck with me if he wanted to. They get off on it. They are all the same. The only difference is military cops get in trouble when they fuck up.

          1. DoD cop? or enlisted security?

            Aren’t you a retired officer?

      2. USA! USA! USA!!!

      3. Holy fuuu….

        In what dipshit, whacked out hollywood B-movie does the half-wit beat cop stop and arrest a bonafide domestic terrorist parked on the side of the street with his GF? How does this even rate as an excuse?

        1. Oh, sorry – jumped from the wrong story but the idea still holds. Some E-3 AF cop isn’t going to find a real terrorist based on the evidence that there was a radar detector on his dash. Excuse not accepted.

      4. There was a debate in CA a few years ago about Air Force cops and if they were actually peace officers under CA law. We had a problem with them pulling people over near Los Angeles AFB in El Segundo and the DA wouldn’t take any of their filings.

        1. There was a debate in CA a few years ago about Air Force cops and if they were actually peace officers under CA law.

          I think the way it works is there needs to be an agreement between the locals and the base. Every base I’ve been at had one.

          1. There was no MOU. LAAFB is tiny and doesn’t even have aircraft or runways. The locals were very surprised to see new police cars in the area, and were already very irritated with the LAX police for doing the same thing.

            I live close to the carwash that all of the police agencies use around here, and some of the police cars are painted with very deliberately vague descriptions about their jurisdictions; particularly AF/DOD, Airport Police, and LAUSD school police. The school police cars just say “police” in block letters, nothing about “LA” or “Schools”, because they don’t want people knowing that you can blow by them on the freeway with no consequences.

            1. Technically, agreement with the locals or no, military police have no jurisdiction off of a military base when interacting with civilians.

              Anything they do ought to be thrown out by the first judge that hears the case — though govt professional courtesy likely would happen.

              1. Technically, they aren’t MPs. They are civilian DOD Police. Not sure how that factors into the equation.

                1. That’s the kicker – the *civilian* police are, technically, federal law enforcement (not military law enforcement).

                  And FYI – the *civilian* investigation agencies inside the DOD (like NCIS) are also federal law enforcement and can do the same things to civilians that, say, NPS cops or FBI can.

                  Personally I’ve been of the persuasion that federal police should be forbidden from enforcing state law (and vice-versa) unilaterally – CBP shouldn’t be able to arrest you for DUI for example.

      5. You got balls. I like that story.

        1. You got balls.

          No not really. I’m retired, they have nothing I need anymore. If he made an issue out of it the odds of his bosses taking his side, when he’s wrong isn’t that high. If they did, he (the Wing Commander) can’t do anything to me except not allow me on his base (and that wouldn’t bother me in the slightest). It’s not a law, it’s an AF regulation. And I’ve always wanted to tell a full bird to fuck off…

          I wouldn’t have done it if I was still in. Too much to lose.

          1. Retired, eh?

            Someone earned a living wage.

            No fair!

            1. 2 pensions and no kids. He’s one of those 1 per centers we’ve been hearing about!

              1. Yep. Great big hypocrite! Sometimes I can even talk myself into believing the military is a legitimate function of government and I earned it. But I suppose that’s the same thing they do over at the FDA and DOE.

                1. I don’t agree with Social Security, but I’m still going to cash the checks if I (and the program) live long enough.

                  1. but I’m still going to cash the checks if I (and the program) live long enough.

                    If a mugger took all your money at gunpoint and then threw you back a Benjamin, would you feel sorry for taking it?

                    1. Absolutely not. I just have the sense to know that my mugger will run out of bling when it is my turn.

                    2. Absolutely not. I just have the sense to know that my mugger will run out of bling when it is my turn.

                    3. Double iPhone post aside, I expect my ROI to be about 10% of what I put in.

                    4. Well, technically, they’re stealing from someone else to pay you back, so you’re sort of an accomplice if you accept it. If it were up to me I’d just tear em up, but my wife wouldn’t go for that.

                      The late Harry Browne never cashed his SS checks, but he could afford to stand on principle.

      6. terrorists display suspicious behavior

        What a fucking idiot.

        Terrorists keep a low profile until the actual attack.


    5. You do have the option of getting the cop’s badge number, and writing to his boss asking “so, why was Barney Fife fucking with me? BTW, I do vote as does my large circle of family and friends, and your answer will determine whether I make a sizable contribution to whoever runs against you.”


  12. I normally like to geek out to chartporn, but this latest offering and it’s unsolicited description was over the top, and I wasn’t the only one who felt that way judging from the comments.

    1. Gee, they could have shown the minimum wage compared to the poverty line for a family of 10. If we’re going to legislate a wage based on family size, why not that?


      Oh, God.

      The low minimum is basically a government subsidy for companies that don’t give a shit about their employees. And contrary to fear mongers, raising the minimum wage does not increase inflation or unemployment.

      How is this a government subsidy? We aren’t giving the company money through a low minimum wage.

      I also like his claim that it doesn’t increase inflation or unemployment…which links to an article from American Progress.

      The reason AMERICAN increases in the minimum wage haven’t had an obvious impact on inflation or unemployment is because the American minimum wage has pretty much constantly been between 6-8 dollars per hour adjusted for inflation, which is low enough that it isn’t far above the clearing price for these wages anyway.

      If you made the minimum wage $15 an hour, that would be far above the clearing price for wages, and you’d see unemployment and inflation. People who claim otherwise never bother answering a simple question: If there would be no inflation or unemployment increase regardless of where we set the minimum wage, then why not make it $100 an hour?

      I mean, there’s no negative consequences to minimum wage increases.

      1. Don Boudreaux at Cafe Hayek has been hammering away at minimum-wage arguments with characteristic elegance and modesty for the past couple of months. Might be worth checking out.

        The real arguments that I see from minimum-wage proponents are emotional, Woody-Guthrie-style stuff, namely that people who aren’t taught to think critically/economically think that it’s a simple process of income redistribution from rich shareholder to poor worker facilitated by color of law, which is a tool for good. If you oppose that redistribution, you’re an evil capitalist who hates the poor. The populist argument isn’t more complicated than that simple poor-vs-rich struggle.

        Then they have statistically inclined ideologues like Krugman to bail them out with byzantine statistical claims, which leaves the Chicago/post-Keynesians fighting over whose studies are the most accurate. The rest of us are left to wonder where this magical demand curve that doesn’t slope down came from and why 50% of economists think that it exists in the labor market (or, disturbingly, admit that it exists but find the increased unemployment acceptable). My conclusion is that economists are generally either philosophers or statistical alchemists, and the latter are incredibly dangerous people.

        1. Hey, you’re the dude that accused me of ‘changing my handle.’ What was up with that? Still no clue where you got that from.

          1. That was a reply to the user we’ve nominated “American” who was posting something or another one of his vague save-the-white-race links under a new handle.

            1. That may have gotten lost from the way that Reason’s comments are organized, or maybe I stuck it under the wrong comment. Not directed at you, though.

      2. In their view, its a subsidy because these people get government assistance and therefore the company *itself* doesn’t have to pay the full ‘living wage’.

        Nevermind that the vast majority are singles not actually getting assistance.

        Apparently the tiny percentage of people actually having (vice having *chosen*) to support 4 people (why family of 4 – why not a family of 3? or even 2?) on one minimum wage salary is justification for screwing everyone else in the country by raising the MW to ridiculous heights.

        1. yeah i see this point too.

          offering a job to a slave with no options, who is only artificially able to survive (welfare) is an immoral employment arrangement.

          if you cant make your product or run your company without paying your employees a terrible wage then you should be very active in philanthropy or reconsider your company’s existence.

          if your employees are only able to survive because an outside source enables it then you and your company are parasites, not producers.

          those kinds of companies do not deserve to be called capitalistic. there should be some condition of perpetuation that is endowed to a companies satellites. satellites, not just as employees, but also business partners and sphere of operation. i think that was the basic point of nash in “A Beautiful Mind”. Don’t overfish, don’t make your sphere a wasteland. Applies to employees also.

      3. Well, they get it partly right: the minimum wage does not increase inflation.

        The only thing that causes inflation is increasing the supply of money. Of course, we know that raising the minimum wage provides the incentive to inflate to counteract the reduced demand for labor.

        What these people fail to recognize is that the Fed’s policy of rampant inflation is so that the government can cover its tracks over many areas. Inflation is a secret tax to finance everything it can’t pay for; allegedly-higher wages for potential voters is just one of them.

      4. This just occurred to me, and I’m not at all familiar with the minimum wage literature, so maybe this has been addressed. It seems to me the workers making minimum wage are likelier to live at home or in the care of someone else (the young, the married, and the functional invalids). If raising the minimum wage prices such people out of the market, where they stay until falling off the U3 rate altogether, isn’t comparing rates of unemployment rather than overall labor participation misleading?

        1. Good point.

      5. If there would be no inflation or unemployment increase regardless of where we set the minimum wage, then why not make it $100 an hour?

        But we’re only talking about doubling it, to 15 bucks. Only dittoheads bring up the 100 bucks an hour example to scare people into thinking that forcing employers to pay their least skilled workers twice as much would lead to job losses!

  13. What’s with repeating half a paragraph, Nick?

    1. He knows nobody reads to the last sentence. They drop out and begin posting after hitting the lede.

      1. I click on the “comments” link on the main H&R page and then scroll up.

      2. I just read the headline and start spouting off. Once in a while my points have already been addressed in the article, which annoys the authors.

  14. After he was satisfied that I wasn’t a criminal

    How exquisitely magnanimous of him.

  15. Simply have the government pay *everyone* a “living wage” just for being a law-abiding citizen resident. *That* is your proactive “safety net”. Each traffic offense costs you, say 5%; each misdemeanor, say, 30%; a felony, say, 100%. If you continue to fuck up, you pay into the system from your real job, or go to debtor’s prison.

    1. Just eliminate income taxes all together, and have the govt print new money for the 3 trillion or so they spend every year.

  16. We really need to raise the minimum wage. As some have pointed out, if a worker can work full time and still not support himself and his family, then the government has to step in

    Fuck off.

    And take your made up government “poverty line” with you.

    1. As some have pointed out

      Can’t find the utterer, P. Where did you find this gem?

      1. From the chartporn link above.

    2. What I’d like to know is below what percentile on the current US Stupidity Scale do American adults not understand that if you want to have a reasonably nice standard of living you have to get a real job? Isn’t that fact pretty clear to anybody who is over 16?

      1. They also love using the poverty line for a family of four. Given that over 50% of minimum wage earners are between 16-24, how many people are actually trying to raise a family on the minimum wage?

  17. Sorry, Rich. That was in Steve G’s chartporn link.

    1. Thanks! I’ll brace myself and take the plunge.

      1. The argument that a higher minimum wage will be a job killer simply doesn’t pass the sniff test of basic economic arithmetic

        *** gasp! cough! ***

        Whew! It’s good to be back.

        1. As long as the minimum wage is below the market price for a particular form of labor, it will may not have a direct effect on the market for that particular form of labor in the short term.

          What chuckleheads like the one you quoted have trouble considering is the effect of their “compassionate” policies on players at the margin. McDonald’s may figure out a way to deal with a dramatic increase in the minimum wage, but Bob’s Burger Dive won’t. The effect would be less competition for McDonald’s. Indeed, my inner conspiracy theorist is telling me that McDonald’s Corp is behind this drive for an increase in the minimum wage.

          1. A market price is the average of what everyone is willing to pay. If a wage is below the “market price for a particular form of labor”, that means there’s someone else out there willing to pay the market price, or more. Go apply at the higher employer, which will cause the low paying one to suffer a lack of employees, and thus a pressure to raise wages in order to compete.

  18. And Seahawks interception. Ha ha ha ha, Kaepernick.

    1. I need the Seahawks to win to help out the Eagles.

      1. That’s funny, the Seahawks need no help at all.

        1. An 11-1 record will do that.

          What a crazy day.

        2. Good on the hawks that they need no help.

          1. Well, they coulda used some.

  19. I honestly think I am worth 3 times my current salary.. but that is because I am doing a PhD ($20,000/y) with 2 engineering degrees already under my belt.

    But I’m only worth what I’m currently being paid. I’m worth exactly that until someone wants to pay me more for my expertise.

    1. I think you bring the IQ average up around here.

      I was too lazy to go get a Masters. Wanted to ‘work.’

      Every now and then I consider it but the thought of researching and studying reminds me I’d rather watch Wings reruns.

      1. Meh, I was an average student through undergrad, I just found something I really enjoyed doing and worked hard to learn it and get through.

        I am actively looking for employment now though, I am getting tired of living with little spare cash after rent/insurance/groceries/gas. My supervisor is fine with me getting full-time employment and doing the my PhD part-time so that is what I’m looking to do now. My supervisor has worked industry his whole life and just recently came to academia so he is on my level. It’s why I took the PhD; he offers projects that are more engineering and less theoretical, projects that industry wants to collaborate on, not abstract thought experiments (even though those have their place).

        1. It’s a good spot to be in.

          Same here. Average student 72ish but largely due to indifference and laziness. My buddy still ribs me about that – he’s an engineer too – and feels I was wasted talent.

          It wasn’t until CEGEP did teachers begin to point out I was creative and could write. My grades got stronger and stronger right into University where they’re strong enough to apply for a Masters.

          Weird how that went.

          Now I look at my daughter and try my best to make sure she doesn’t act like an idiot like I did.

          1. Luckily my father sat me down in 10th grade and said if I didn’t quit fucking around I was going to be working a factory line or something similarly mind numbing for the rest of my life… and he would beat the shit out of me if I didn’t straighten up.

            1. My dad never deterred me from my dreams. It was 4 years in the Marine infantry that showed me to pay more attention to salary than teenage dreams. That shot me straight into engineering school to rack up an academic scholarship and graduate Tau Beta Pi – not so much brains as raw determination to bump up my employability.

              1. He never deterred me, but let me know that grades will follow me around. He told me I could do whatever I want, but don’t fuck up my grades because if I do that I will cut off a lot of options for myself. This was all enforced with a dose of what is realistic as a career and what is likely never going to pay the bills.

                1. I’m not sure what all of this academic chit chat is about. Are you guys speaking Canadian?

                  Joe, are you doing a nuclear engineering PHD? My father in law did that, and has a pretty cushy gig at the DFNSB. He is competent but lazy, yet keeps getting promoted because of all the morons around him who can’t stop making mistakes.

            2. Luckily my father sat me down in 10th grade and said if I didn’t quit fucking around I was going to be working a factory line

              My old man did something similar. He got me a summer job at a factory, forced me to take it. I spent about 3 weeks stuffing printer paper into a box for 8 hours a day (11pm-7am). I almost snapped. Couldn’t take it.

              Lesson learned, accepted and acknowledged. Took shit a bit more seriously after that.

      2. I’m worth exactly that until someone wants to pay me more for my expertise.

        “I think you bring the IQ average up around here.”

        Uuuh..No Rufus, he doesn’t, and neither do you if you think his statement is valid.

        No one wants to pay him more. They will have to pay him more to gain his service.

        1. Unless that person is a 100% commissioned sales person. And even then they wlll try to pay you less if you have no other options.

          1. I didn’t want to sell my laptop to make rent last week, but I desired having a place to live more than I did keeping the laptop. (Fictional story, but you get the point.)

            The want of it is neither here nor there. Transactions reveal preferences, so if and when Joe finds better-remunerated employment, his employer will have revealed a preference for retaining Joe’s services over retaining the (x-$20,000) premium he pays for it.

            1. Did what they paid you for your laptop have to do with how much you wanted for your laptop ? Or how much your laptop was worht, compared to other laptops they could have bought ?

              Your second paragraph makes sense, but it contradicts your first.

              1. I wanted to keep my laptop (in my makebelieve scenario) but sold it to pay for rent; ergo I wanted the liquidity afforded me by selling it more than I wanted the laptop. The laptop isn’t cancelled out by the rent payment, but it is trumped, in the same sense that an employer’s desire to keep $x per month is trumped by his desire for $x+p (the premium above hiring another employee) that he accrues from such a transaction. That money is still a fungible commodity to the employer, still worth its valuation in yachts or country club memberships or whatever, but he chose to foresake it in preference for an even greater future monetary gain.

                And whatever I could be paid for laptops is entirely beside the point and a function of the used laptop market, which determines the “worth” of it. The “worth” I could fetch for my laptop is clearly under my valuation, hence my desire to keep it rather than putting it on the market.

            2. Do you make a habit of skewering roaches on toothpicks, to serve as an example for other roaches?

        2. OneOut, not following you.

          mY iQ beelow 30..

            1. How does Rufus’ dick taste you idiot ?

          1. If you think that someone pays you more money than they have to because they just want to, then your IQ doesn’t even approach 30.

          2. You talk like a fag, and your shits all retarded.

    2. Have you considered going on strike?

      1. I’m currently rallying my fellow students. We are not slaves to the academic 1%! We will be heard! Quick, find a student trying to support a kid on grad student wages, get her infront of a camera! Re-write the laws! Grad students will be paid at least as much as the lowest paid professor! Mandate it! Write our provincial government representative! We need living wages!

        I bet there are some who would read that and think “great idea!”

        1. Come to Quebec where we like a good ‘give us free shit’ protest.

          1. I watch from across the provincial line in disdain. But I do like Quebecers for their more “not caring” attitude when it comes to strip clubs, smoking, and drinking.

          2. That is not to say Ontario is much better.. it’s a “government should fix that” attitude all the way down

            1. Well, that’s Canada as a whole.

              And yes, when it comes to those sorts of things, Quebec is probably the best place on the continent. No hyperbole. Wild place.

            2. When I was exposed to the medical field through a job I had, we got to talk to hospital administrators and doctors across the country. I learned that our health care system would make the Byzantines queasy and that Ontario had some nutty laws. For example, a doctor with a ‘private practice’ could only perform surgeries the province would permit despite him having the same education and training as his colleagues in the public sector.

              Absurd and rigid to the point of senselessness.

        2. Grad students will be paid at least as much as the lowest paid professor!

          So, Europe, basically.

          1. HM, did you get my email? There’s no hurry; I just figured I’d ask because I always seem to get swept into spam people’s filters.

            1. Huh? No, I’ll go check. I use my gmail as a spam trap.

    3. No one wants to pay you more.

      It’s only until they have to, to get you services, that they will.

      1. They want to pay me more if they will get more value in return from my work than what they pay me in wage.

        1. If they can get you to produce the same for less pay they are happy.

          Wouldn’t you be ?

          1. And I will always want more. But I will be *happy* with the wage I voluntarily settle on or I will find a different job.

            This argument is fucking useless.

            1. Of course you will be happy. You have maxed out your market value.

              Are “they” happy paying you more than “they” have to ?

              Duuuuh… I’m happy to pay you more money than market forces force me to.

              1. He never said they’d be happy to pay him more than they want to pay him. You said that. Joe said they’d be happy to pay him more than the arbitrary number he threw out, presumably because they value the work he does for the amount over $20,000 they’re paying him. That’s investment: paying for a given asset in return for eventual profit.

            2. Smilin’…it is. Don’t bother.

  20. I dont measure the worth of a person in dollars.

    The worth of my labor to an employer can easily be measured in dollars. My labor makes an employer a profit, and they pay me some agreed upon portion of that profit. It has nothing to do with what ‘I’ am worth.

    1. I agree, but I guess I just subconsciously jumped to this being about my labors worth to an employer.

      I am worth something completely non-monetary to my family and friends.

      1. It is a deliberate conflation on their part. They claim those people are worth more than they are currently being paid.

        They are claiming that a person whittling toothpicks one at a time with a pocket knife should be paid 15 bucks an hour because that person is worth a living wage.

        That is their argument. Their motive was pointed out by SweatingGin in the third comment.

    2. I dont measure the worth of a person in dollars

      Ah, so that’s why you’ve never hired a prostitute.

      *Waa-waa trumpet SFX*

      1. Either that or I suspect he paid a lot more than market rate.

  21. Plus, if the the minimum wage was $15 per hour, these same fast food workers would have much more competition for these jobs and inflation (too much money chasing too few goods) would make $15 per hour worth $7.25 today. So they will lose. I believe the vast majority of minimum wage workers are either kids or retired, old folks. The rest are unskilled workers who have no special skills to offer employers that they can’t get from just about anyone. That is why they get paid so little. You are only worth what someone is willing to pay for your labor.

  22. Im lucky–I get paid decent money to do a job I would do for free.
    Guys I work with are always complaining that since they have jobs with the city, they should be paid enough to own a house and raise a family without needing a second income. Its the same argument these fast food and Walmart employees are making, just on a different level.

    1. Bottom line: common sense says if you can only make minimum wage you shouldn’t have a family to support. Buy a condom, much cheaper than having wife and kids. When I started in the work force at an entry level job in my 20s, I knew I could not afford a family. Therefore, I didn’t have one. Kids do not produce wealth. They are a serious drain.

      1. Why do you hate children, Mike?

        Everyone, even a minimum-wage employee, has the human *right* to procreation. It’s not the child’s fault his parents ?


        1. I probably won’t grant them a right to procreation but I can suggest something for them to do just a bit tangential to that.

          1. Would that be “Fuck off, slaver”?

            1. Yeah, “slaver” would be optional.

      2. Except for child actors and tennis prodigies.

        1. Or if you sell them to gypsies.

  23. Adam Weinstein acts like a little bitch and makes fun of Kennedy for getting a T.V. show on Fox.

    A few thoughts:

    1. There are now three shows on Fox that I’m willing to watch. I’ll watch Stossel and Kennedy/Welch’s show for the politics and Megyn Kelly’s show for her legs.

    2. Since Adam Weinstein is the petulant little child who published an article stamping his feet about the fact that no one is willing to pay a Gawker writer $75,000 a year, I feel like he might just be angry that Kennedy is actually interesting enough to make money rather than toiling in the Gawker sweat shop.

    Honestly, I always wonder what makes liberals who basically admit that they’re useless and pathetic losers still have this bizarre aura of smug superiority.

    Has there ever been a less successful narcissist than Adam Weinstein?

    1. Honestly, I always wonder what makes liberals who basically admit that they’re useless and pathetic losers still have this bizarre aura of smug superiority.

      It’s related to the “words mean everything, actions and reality mean nothing” syndrome. Weinstein (and others like him) believe (and are often told by fellow travelers) that they are really, really smart. They believe. The fact that they aren’t paid much or sought after (actions and reality) doesn’t mean anything, just like a politician actually doing what they say doesn’t matter to people like him.

      The hallmark of these types is their abject refusal to ground anything–absolutely anything–in any sort of reality. Only words and beliefs and what they think should be matters.

    2. Younger journos see me as a success story and ask my advice, and I feel like a fraud, because I’m doing what I love, and it makes me completely miserable and exhausts me.

      They have a smug superiority complex but in the end they are miserable and pathetic human beings that can’t handle the weight of their cognitive dissonance.

    3. Well, his name is Adame Whinestein isn’t it?

      Perhaps related to Doug and Wendy Whiner.

    4. That is exactly the response I would expect from an entitled shit who has it pointed out to him that he is an entitled shit with unrealistic expectations.

      No, fuck you Weinstein.

      * I looked at the article he is complaining about. I love the rainbow vomiting unicorns.

      1. My favorite part is that he basically flat out says that he had expectations that couldn’t be met since the job he chose simply doesn’t pay as much as he thought.

        He then throws a fit because someone pointed out that a lot of people his age have expectations that can’t be met since the jobs they choose simply don’t pay as much as they thought.

        How DARE the maker of that comic describe him accurately?

        1. There is nothing wrong with Weinstein that hot lead penetrating his brain pan at high speed couldn’t fix.

          1. Where do I click for that option?

  24. My Xbox One Won’t Let Me Swear

    Xbox One really is [censored] listening to you. With new technology, the video game system is punishing those who let the expletives fly while button-mashing.

    You are not alone. FIFA 14 and NBA 2K14 are showing us a fascinating?and slightly disturbing?future of gaming. The Xbox One is constantly listening to what you say, specifically key words, including expletives, likely shouted at the screen after a particularly poor play. Hearing these trigger-words, the game reacts: in NBA 2K14, the player is given a technical foul; in FIFA 14, the player receives a strongly worded letter requesting that they improve their manners.
    . . .

    The Xbox One gives players the ability to upload clips of gameplay and record voiceover. Unfortunately, those who engage in “excessive profanity” during these uploaded videos will have some of their system-wide online privileges temporarily revoked. In a statement to Ars Technica, a Microsoft rep said that this is because “We want a clean, safe, and fun environment for all users.”

    1. in NBA 2K14, the player is given a technical foul; in FIFA 14, the player receives a strongly worded letter requesting that they improve their manners.

      Hey, EA says “it’s in the game”.

    2. Just *one* more reason I won’t play with a console.

  25. Hearing these trigger-words, the game reacts: in NBA 2K14, the player is given a technical foul; in FIFA 14, the player receives a strongly worded letter requesting that they improve their manners.

    “Stick it up your ass, ref.”

    1. ‘Stick it up your wife’s ass, ref.’

  26. Why is every story on “the minimum wage” obsessed with the FEDERAL minimum wage? States have their own minimum wage levels, but this is pretty much never mentioned. This is understandable on the Left, which seems to always want to enforce a blanket one-size-fits-all law on everyone. This is a mystery on ‘libertarian’, ‘conservative’, ‘moderate’, etc., web sites. We don’t even NEED a federal minimum wage. If California, or some other state, wants to double the minimum wage, then let them and the other states can see how well it really works out.

    1. Well said.

    2. That’s just what Mike Huckabee said.


  27. Some of the most motivated, hard working fast food employees are at In-N-Out Burger, which starts at $10.50 an hour and goes up from there.

    Basically, the market is saying that even the best workers aren’t worth $15 an hour — or, more precisely, when you’re skilled enough to be worth $15 an hour at fast food, you’re gonna have better employment options to move on to.

    1. I know several In and Out alumni. They are all highly successful. Funny how that works.

    2. “Some of the most motivated, hard working fast food employees are at In-N-Out Burger, which starts at $10.50 an hour and goes up from there.”

      And I’ll bet the interview is a bit tougher than Mickey D’s.

    3. I’ve noticed that at places like Five Guys and Potbelly too – the workers must be making well over minimum because they’re actually competent and friendly.

      1. “I’ve noticed that at places like Five Guys and Potbelly too – the workers must be making well over minimum because they’re actually competent and friendly.”

        Why do you hate incompetent workers?!

        1. “Stupid babies need the most attention.”

    1. Howie Carr is all over this story.

      It’s hilarious.

      Didn’t Obama say he’s all about family? Meanwhile, he seems to treat them pretty shabbily.

      1. He’s so all over it that he’s all over it twice, no less! 😉

    2. Howie Carr is all over this story.

      It’s hilarious.

      Didn’t Obama say he’s all about family? Meanwhile, he seems to treat them pretty shabbily.

  28. If those losers want more money then they should get an EDUCATION and EARN it!

    1. Anonbot, I am *shocked* at your callousness!

      1. I’m not. Hell over the last few months our Anonbots have been getting replaced faster than factory orphans. Brutal.

        1. Good point. That *has* to take a toll. Plus, why assume that each of our Anonbots does not have a personality as uniques as its name?

          1. They can’t keep them when they are in service though. It’s one of the Three Laws of Anonobotics.

    2. I do believe anonbot is becoming libertarian.

    3. Oh, Anonbot behave!

  29. There is no way a minimum wage law can be squared with the NAP. Proponents should realize that what they are advocating when they support one is that the state should come in and use force on someone for the crime of…paying a worker who has agreed to perform services for a wage that wage. I do not see how that can be defended.

    Having said that, I do not mind efforts to raise the minimum wage that do not violate the NAP. If people want to use moral suasion that strikes me as just fine (though of course silly and counterproductive in many cases). The price and availability of something often reflects such things, it is a factor of doing business.

    If there were two restaurants with equal quality food and service, but I knew that the owner of one was nice, polite and decent to his employees while the other yelled at and treated them like West Virginia’s football coach does his players I would choose to give my business to the former. Likewise if one was more generous in rewarding the hard work of his employees, taking it out of what could be higher profits for himself, I think I would choose to support that as well. Libertarianism does not call for celebrating low wages or inequality, just not using coercive measures to ‘address’ them.

    1. If it was just ‘moral suasion’ then it wouldn’t really be a minimum wage though.

      It would just be a group of people agreeing to pay employees a certain amount for their labor – exactly as happens in the absence of a minimum wage law.

      1. Fair enough point, I should reword that to ‘I do not mind efforts to get employers to raise wages that do not violate the NAP. If people want to use moral suasion to that end it strikes me as just fine.’

    2. “Libertarianism does not call for celebrating low wages or inequality, just not using coercive measures to ‘address’ them.”

      As for this – this is just a strawman the left likes to put up about us – our opposition to MW laws has nothing to do with celebrating low wages or inequality – its all about two things;

      1. Non-coercive interaction between employers and employees

      2. What (actually) get people out of poverty.

      1. Agreed, with a caveat: some libertarians do muddy the waters by making comments about how whatever markets produce must be the best outcome only challenged/criticized by fools or nannys, or that efforts to change market outcomes, even if they do not call for coercion, are unlibertarian. Others equate inequality with what people ‘deserve,’ arguing that minimum wage workers or any current level of inequality can simply be chalked up to those getting the wage or at the bottom ‘deserving’ it because they are stupid, unskilled, undisciplined, or lazy. I do not dispute that wages usually reflect some notion of value contributed, but not always, and not in some ‘cosmic’ sense. Perhaps more importantly, an acceptance of the NAP as a guiding principle does not hinge on this.

        1. “I do not dispute that wages usually reflect some notion of value contributed, but not always, and not in some ‘cosmic’ sense”

          Pretty sure you can ignore any ‘cosmic’ indicators.
          It’s very simple; employers offer what they hope is the market-clearing price for the skills they need.
          Morality is irrelevant in the matter.

          1. -employers offer what they hope is the market-clearing price for the skills they need.

            My point is that this does not occur in some objective sense, but in a sense where employers think of a range of factors, some of which can be cultural and moral considerations. The CEO-worker pay gap is different in Japan than here because of that kind of thing. The worker at Chipolte does not necessarily make more than the worker at McDonalds because the latter are ‘lazier and stupider,’ at least some of this has to do with the different business models they have chosen to pursue.

        2. You’re just throwing out strawmen left and right here.

          No-one (no-one libertarian) has ever said there is any value in a ‘cosmic sense’ for anything, ever. We all know that value is subjective and accept that some people’s value *to other people* is low – hence why they get low pay.

          They get that low pay because they are stupid, unskilled, undisciplined, or lazy – which can all be remedied and once they are, they will be able to command a higher wage.

          It sounds harsh but I speak from personal experience – both from being at the bottom of the pile because I was lazy and ill-disciplined and later managing troops who start out with a high percentage of this behavior.

          You would be hard-pressed to find people who are held down by some conspiracy of business interests and not by their own detect (and should judge on) an employees potential.

      2. “2. What (actually) get people out of poverty.”

        I get the feeling that a good number of us here were raised low-to-middle class and boot-strapped our way up so we have a fairly good view of how people either do or don’t get out of poverty. Some of us here may or may not have known many chronically poor people but we know what it takes to get ahead and none of the government sponsored programs even point in that direction.

        1. …”none of the government sponsored programs even point in that direction.”…

          Unfortunately, most of the ‘non-profit’ charities do either. Most are involved in handing out free stuff, as if poverty were simply a lack of stuff.
          It rarely is. Most often, it’s a lack of desire not to be poor. It’s sort of like quitting smoking; you want to quit? Don’t ask someone to keep the smokes away from you, just quit sticking one in your mouth.

        2. That was sort of the point – one of the criteria we judge a policy on is it *actual* effects and not its intentions.

          Current MW policy is *intended* to move people out of poverty, what it *actually* does is make getting ahead harder – people stagnate in their socio-economic class (at best) or are pushed further down because liberals consistently fail to face up to the fact that while the free-market produces shitty outcomes, it still produces better outcomes than every other economic system tried (and their ‘novel solutions’ aren’t novel – just the same crap over and over).

  30. SQRSLY One asked over in the Terry Micheals’ thread (where the traffic is light); ‘Is there any link to Hercules Triathlon’?
    Yes there is. For your reading pleasure and Happy Holidays!
    “[R2P] RIGHT TO PETROLEUM- Libya-Japan-Europe maintaining the flow of commerce.”…


    1. in the Terry Micheals’ thread

      Unfortunately it is hard for me to dissociate anything he writes from his HIV denialism.

      1. Well, that, and the fact that overall he’s just a piece of shit.

      2. “Unfortunately it is hard for me to dissociate anything he writes from his HIV denialism.”
        I’ve got exactly the same problem.

      3. I find it hard to take what he says seriously when someone points out to him that the Tea Party doesn’t actually hate Mexicans and his defense is ‘I didn’t say they HATE Mexicans, I said they DISLIKE Mexicans.’

        That has to be the least impressive defense of a dumb statement that I’ve ever seen.

        1. Better if no defense was offered; I cringed.

    2. There are still families in America without SUVs, so wages are still too low.

  31. I fully support this. Now they can fire the people who always mess up my order and only the good workers will be left.

    1. That *is* a benefit – I may no longer be able to afford to eat at Jack in the Box but, if I could, the employees would be good enough to give me the right fries.

  32. some libertarians do muddy the waters by making comments about how whatever markets produce must be the best outcome only challenged/criticized by fools or nannys, or that efforts to change market outcomes, even if they do not call for coercion, are unlibertarian.

    Replace “some libertarians” with “the voices in Bo’s head”.

  33. The most irritating thing about this kerfuffle is the way that the leftards get all emotional about “who are you to say what someONE is worth?” It’s not about what the worker is worth, it’s about what the JOB is worth. You can be Albert Einstein and it’s still not cost-effective to pay you $15/hour to flip burgers. Einstein could make a hell of a lot more money, and produce far more VALUE for society by working as a physicist.

    If you’re capable of more than flipping burgers, then go forth and find a higher-paying job. Paying you more to do a low-level job wastes your potential.


    1. …”leftards get all emotional about “who are you to say what someONE is worth?” It’s not about what the worker is worth, it’s about what the JOB is worth”…

      To add to your comment, yes, the job is worth X and it’s not that anyone SAYS it’s worth that, it’s simply that people capable of doing that job are willing to do so at X pay.
      Bo, if you are to organize a NAP effort to change the ‘minimum wage’, you’re going to have to deal with that fact.
      The wage is NOT a result of collusion; it’s a result of “greed” on the part of those looking for work in that skill.

  34. Steve Smith gets into the end zone (with 5:15 left)!
    Just so you know.

    1. I thought that STEVE SMITH always gets into the end zone. Or is this a different STEVE SMITH?

      1. I make no comment as I am not “familiar” with Steve Smith.

        1. Don’t go hiking alone in the pacific northwest.

          Otherwise you may become very ‘familiar’ with STEVE SMITH. He’ll know you – biblically.

  35. The Stainless Steel Rat found the automated Mc’D’s to be the perfect hideout of the future. All you can eat.

  36. The Daily Beast comments section is a fever swamp.

    Why. DO. I. DO. That?

  37. Nick quotes Fact Check.LMAO!A Great Linearer!

    A parable: At one time America had a strong economy, all rejoiced, and politicians started to promise, promise, promise (spend, spend, spend). Over time the government spending required much more revenue but the politician didn’t want to level with the voters that taxes were going to have to be raised to pay for the government provided services (“Guns and Butter”). Thus backroom deals were made under the “Trade Deal” banner so that a foreign country would partner with the American government agreeing to buy its debt in return for “free trade” that allowed cheaper products to flood the American market (the foreign country collects the dollars on the sales to America then turns around to buy T-Bills thus funding the government spending). The first partner was Japan, then Mexico and Canada, then China. Over the course of those 4 decades the result was that many American factories shut down and some American companies went overseas to compete on price. All the while the politician yelled and screamed about the evil businessman who was killing the American economy by moving jobs to other countries. Most Americans who were educated in Public Schools where no Critical Thinking or Finance History are taught believed the politician that the evil businessman was responsible all the while the government continues its promise of more and more spending (“Guns and Butter”) until the American economy is destroyed and the correction comes.

  38. NAFTA was a disaster. My state since the NAFTA being passed has lost some 700,000 manufacturing jobs. NAFTA was a jobs bill for foreigners with the cost being “you must buy US debt”.

    1. Danno, NC took an ass whoopin from NAFTA…pains me to see clothing plants that were all around FtBragg setting closed( at least they were last I was there–8yrs ago), they could be torn down by now. TO compound it all of the mom n pop stores that supports the plants are empty…I want the politicians to tell us again why we don’t want those jobs here in the US?

  39. let me get this right the people flipping burgers should be making the same as many EMTs, police, firefighters? Yeah that’s it..NOT

    1. one thing I noticed about all of these supposed fast food workers (in reality SEIU hires)…they are out protesting how poor they are in their new Nikes, latest sports team jackets, Timberland coats, Under Armour attire…if they are all so “broke” how can they afford this?

  40. my buddy’s mom makes 80 dollars every hour on the laptop. She has been unemployed for 9 months but last month her payment was 14780 dollars just working on the laptop for a few hours. visit here

  41. I laugh in the face of anyone who says fast food is hard work, those pussies are asking for more pay than tradesmen who actually do real work that requires effort.

    Screw em and their 7.25 an hour bring on the illegals for 5/hr cash.

  42. You order/pay via your phone and just drive up to a window that has your meal sitting there for you. Make people lazy i think

  43. until I saw the bank draft for $7998, I be certain that…my… best friend woz like realy bringing home money part-time on their laptop.. there neighbour haz done this for under fourteen months and just took care of the morgage on their condo and purchased a new Mazda MX-5. visit this web-site


  44. It’s pretty simple – if you’re flipping burgers and want paid $15/hr, apply for another job that already pays that much.

  45. I was wondering, would it make a difference if we did raise minimum tax to $15/hour and raise EITC adjusted for de/inflation; as long as other taxes and spending are reduced significantly? (corporate/capital gains/income)Would it be the best for both worlds right? One side have their tax/spend cuts and the other has their wages and safety net increases.

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