Due Process

North Carolina Allows Students Legal Representation in University Disciplinary Hearings

Usual suspects worried

|

silent sam, chapel hill
Don McCullough/Foter.com

A bill that allows college students facing disciplinary hearings to seek legal representation in disciplinary hearings was signed into law in North Carolina on Friday, after being supported by a bipartisan group of legislators that worked with the civil liberties group FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights in Education).  It shouldn't be surprising who's uncomfortable with the new law, via Inside Higher Ed:

"A key component of the developmental process of responding to student misconduct is for the student to take responsibility for their own behavior and to learn from the incident," said Bill Haggard, vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Asheville. "Part of that learning experience is being able to speak on their own behalf, take responsibility for their own behaviors and engage in a conversation about changing their behavior in the future."

That will be a whole lot less likely, officials say, if students have a lawyer speaking for them.

"It's obviously something that most student affairs professionals are not that crazy about," Haggard said.

Inside Higher Ed explains that college administrators consider the purpose of disciplinary hearings to find "responsibility," not guilt, and to "teach good citizenship [rather] than punish wrong behavior." Nevertheless, with "responsibility" come punishments extending all the way to expulsion. FIRE's policy director explains:

"For many students, especially first-generation college students or those who might come from disadvantaged backgrounds, facing down a room full of deans, administrators, and university lawyers when accused of a campus crime is a hugely intimidating task," said FIRE Legislative and Policy Director Joe Cohn. "Giving these students access to legal representation levels the playing field and, especially given the importance of college education in one's life and career, could make a difference that will last a lifetime."

Discomfort with constitutional protections isn't limited to higher education. Earlier this year a school teacher in Illinois was reprimanded for telling students about their Fifth Amendment rights before handing out a school drug survey. A few years ago two Virginia teachers were investigated for giving students material on their rights in a police encounter. Police are also an increasing presence in schools of all grade levels.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

181 responses to “North Carolina Allows Students Legal Representation in University Disciplinary Hearings

  1. Something something protecting rapists something something trigger warning PROBLEMATIC.

  2. Let me guess: free association means those students voluntarily signed away their rights, so this is unwarranted interference, and they can always just transfer to Bob Jones university!

    1. Flawless. Well done!

    2. While this reflects the impact of the all-Republican, and highly conservative, new government in North Carolina, it also points to the increasing irrelevance and ineptness of the bloated UNC system bureaucracy. They should have been able to anticipate these concerns a long time ago, especially given the UNC-Chapel Hill campus episodes with sexual harassment hearings.

      Regards, professional essay writing help http://buyessayfast.net/

  3. This is great news, especially in light of the DoE’s ridiculously low burden of proof for accusations of sexual assault.

    1. Especially because of that, yes.

    2. That’s the mask slipping. It’s the exact kind of system of privilege they would impose on the court system is they had there way.

    3. I get much joy thinking of some academics going against a (hopefully) hard-boiled defense lawyer.

      1. I’d pay money to watch that.

  4. “Part of that learning experience is being able to speak on their own behalf, take responsibility for their own behaviors and engage in a conversation about changing their behavior in the future.”

    “Sentence first; trial afterward.”

    1. “Part of that learning experience is being able to speak on their own behalf, take responsibility for their own behaviors and engage in a conversation about changing their behavior in the future.”

      Sure, it’s not like this reeks of a presumption of guilt or anything.

    2. Just so’s I’m clear: College is vital to success in the liberal world-view, but allowing this vital opportunity to be destroyed by the whims of a committee is better than allowing you representation. Sure.

      1. Not just any committee, a committee of academic TOP. MEN.

    3. I went to UNC Chapel Hill, and remember at a College Republicans meeting (I have reformed then) with a guest state rep stating that the Honor Court is unconstitutional and the University is well aware of that fact.

      1. *I have reformed since then

      2. This law actually wouldn’t apply to the Honor Court. It makes an exception for entirely student-run punishments like that.

  5. Yeah, my own experience w/campus “judicial systems”? Not good, both in my own case and w/one of our kids. Neither of us wanted/used a lawyer, but both of us experienced “you are guilty, this is just determining the penalty”.

    Seems there are many other examples where this is the case. So I say good for NC lawmakers explicitly making it clear that students can have legal representation at these [in my experience] kangaroo courts.

  6. college administrators consider the purpose of disciplinary hearings to find “responsibility,” not guilt, and to “teach good citizenship [rather] than punish wrong behavior.”

    I believe this easily clears the threshold of rhetoric which may be described as “Orwellian”.

    1. “Good citizenship” clearly involves accepting the fact of your guilt whether or not you actually did anything wrong.

      1. And, say, dismissal from school isn’t really punishment.

        I thought Judge Smails was dead.

        1. If we could get it where the school had to fully refund all tuition and expenses if the school chooses to kick the student out, then I wouldn’t really have a problem with it. Yes, it’s a PITA, but we do have free association for a reason.

          1. Wasting X% of a semester and trying to get into another school after having been kicked out of one is more than a PITA.

            I’m pretty sure the reason we have free association is not so that petty tyrants can ruin lives to further a narrative and feel good about themselves. If a private school does it, I guess you just kind of have to take that risk. When a public school does it, not so much.

          2. This law applies to the North Carolina state university system.

            Every institution of the state, and I mean every one, must be run in accord with the US Constitution.

            If that means their pretty little state university system can’t be run the way they want, too fucking bad.

            1. Well, to a certain extent, they do. There is no constitutional right to representation at certain administrative hearings.

            2. I do wonder if it applies to the state-run residential magnet high schools, like NCSSM and the NC School of the Arts. Those are part of the UNC system.

        2. I thought Judge Smails was dead.

          “I’ve sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn’t want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.”

      2. The Peoples Commissar is willing to accept the confessions of the Wreckers and Counter Revolutionaries prior to sentencing.

      3. “Good citizenship” clearly involves accepting the fact of your guilt whether or not you actually did anything wrong, especially if you’re a white heterosexual male.

        FTFY.

  7. yes, Dr Haggard, by all means, let’s take 19 year olds and put them in a room with professional academics and convince the academics that, in this setting, they are on equal footing with the students. No one will object, will they?

    Of course, he doesn’t want lawyers. These fuckers depend on the cloak of imagined authority when lording over students. And Haggard’s summation of his view on this tells you all you need to know – his assumption is they’re all guilty anyway and should welcome whatever punishment their betters see fit to dole out.

    1. On the other hand, MOAR LAWYERS!

      This is never a good thing.

      1. You say never, I say ALWAYS!

        1. You are evil…

  8. Also, 2+2=5.

  9. A key component of the developmental process of responding to student misconduct is for the student to take responsibility for their own behavior and to learn from the incident,” said Bill Haggard, vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Asheville.

    Way to beg the question, you fucking simpleton.

    1. What he’s begging for is a “nice, stiff fist beating”, as my brother used to say.

  10. Just dropped my son off at school this weekend (empty nest FTW!). Unbeknownst to me, my wife packed him off some of our aoohol, and daughter #2 informed him to hide it in his closet, “cause they never check there – just your desk”.

    AND THE ALMANIAN FAMILY CRIMINAL CULTURE IS PASSED ON TO ANOTHER GENERATION.

    I hope he stays out of jail College Court jail.

    1. It must have really been humbling for you to drop him off in Columbus, huh?

      1. Fuck yeah EDG

      2. Columbus?

        No – he was accepted to a GOOD school, EDG.

    2. Thank god my school didn’t have any of that bullshit. I put my booze wherever I wanted.

      1. Wait, what? Are they searching students’ rooms or some fascist shit like that? No one came in my room unless they were female and looking for some action. Do these fucks really search students’ rooms?

        1. So, no one came to your room?

          1. Only fat chicks. šŸ™

            (runs off sobbing)

            1. So – John’s leftovers. Got it.

            2. Warty’s a fat chick?

              1. Warty is neither fat nor skinny; chick nor dude. He It just is.

        2. Oh, yeah – I went to the same pvt school my son’s now attending. They could walk right in. Generally they only did it if provoked – I will give them that.

          But once in, “all ur stuffs r belong to us”, and the search was on.

          Course, I used to just leave my bongs and weed out, so I was an easy mark….till I moved off campus my sophomore year…

          1. That’s amazing. If an RA tried to barge into my room at Hopkins (granted, I only had an on-campus room freshman year; after that Hopkins traditionally kicked you off campus), I would have punched them in the face. Sorry, my room is inviolate, fuck you. I have to give Hopkins credit for giving their students a lot of autonomy. Scruffy knows, he was there at the same time as me.

            1. At my school even the campus police weren’t allowed in your room unless they actually watched someone walk out with booze in their hand. Not that they mostly cared about even that. Strange wonder that most people stayed on campus for four years instead of fleeing as soon as they could.

              1. We didn’t have campus police. There was campus “security”, and it was laughable. And BPD never came anywhere near campus. Which was good because I was stoned 90% of the time and always had weed on me.

                1. I’m glad we had our own department instead of HPD but that’s mainly because the administration made sure all the people at the top of the department weren’t dicks. The chief was awesome, drank with him a few times when he was off-duty.

                2. As I recall, our RA had the campus police pick up one of our dormmates and take him off for psychological evaluations. We didn’t see him for a week. When he came back he kept muttering something about his mommy.

            2. Scruffy believes in this university.

              1. Scruffy’s gonna get himself another one of them $300 haircuts. This one’s lost its pizzazz.

                1. Hopkins ain’t so bad. You can make sangria in the turlet. Still, it’s shank or be shanked.

            3. That’s the way it used to be dammit. Now it’s a fucking reeducation camp for the privileged.

              Although, I do remember somebody getting kicked out for distilling ether in the dorms. Something about the potential for large explosions that freaked them out.

          2. I never lived on campus – that was for poor schmucks.

            1. A man after my own heart! This is where I lived after freshman year.

              1. The one night I spent on campus – when I was a HS senior – was enough to keep me out of the dorms.

                1. I specifically requested–and received–single housing. There was a four-story house just across the street from campus that had been modified into mostly single rooms with a few doubles in it. I got one of those. We had kitchens on every floor. It wasn’t too bad, but of course it didn’t compare to my central AC 1200 sqft apartment the next year. I could play Frisbee in that apartment.

            2. See, my experience was the opposite.

              The dorms and on-campus apartments were for the socially successful.

              If you lived off-campus you were a “commuter” and you may as well have been an Oliver Twist orphan. And forget having a social life.

              1. My experience conforms to Fluffy’s.

                1. Johns Hopkins traditionally kicked everyone off campus after freshman year. That started to change after I got there, but previously it was cut and dried: starting sophomore year, you are on your own. Get out. Nobody was a commuter, and there was much more social life off campus than on. God damn I hate Balmer.

              2. this

                Plus, on-campus living was “required” back in my day, unless you were married, financially independent, and for a few other exceptions.

                I actually liked it – it was a sportfucking, drug-addled, bacchanal festival the whole time.

                I. LOVED. College. Even living on campus (except my Sr. year, when I was married AND financially independent)

              3. I hate noise. And mostly the type of dullards who populate this feeble earth. I had a grand old time off campus… hanging out with the freaks and geeks I preferred.

                1. Living on campus was also required for freshman. But like many rules in life, I’ve found they can be cheerfully ignored. Hell, I still do it all the time at work. Diversity training? Ooops? I was too busy to attend.

        3. Apparently at many schools the student RAs have that power. We didn’t have them because fuck giving somebody a year or two older than you authority like that. UT is a dry campus and from what I heard if you got a dick RA it could be a pain in the ass.

          1. Yeah, if you got a dick RA, but see below. Also, I can’t remember the name of my dorm, but it was the men’s dorm across 21st from Jester next to the raido station. (Moore Hall, which sounds right.) We’d get fire alarms after visiting hours that would be 25-40% female. Nobody cared.

            1. Sorry, trying again: We’d get fire alarms after visiting hours and the evacuees (from the all male dorm) would be 25-40% female).

              1. I’ve never heard of an all male dorm being as strict about that as some female ones are. We only had coed dorms though so my knowledge is all second hand.

                Most of the people I know that went to UT had no problems but there was always a possibility for selective enforcement.

                1. Oh, woe betide you if you got caught having a penis attached to you in the wimmenz dorm outside of visiting hours. (Although, I do recall waiting for 7am so I could leave this chick’s dorm room and take a piss. So not getting causght was key.)

        4. I saw my RA twice. Check in and check out.

        5. No one came in my room unless they were female and looking for some action drunk and lost.

          FIFY

          1. I’m disappointed that no one riffed of the “no one came in my room” bit. I put that shit out there are you guys can’t take the bait?!?

            I’M DISAPPOINTED

            1. We all know that you deny women your essence because of fluoridation.

              1. Uh, Jack, Jack, listen…tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first…become…well, develop this theory?

        6. Where I went, they would do fire safety inspections, but that was it (and it really was limited to looking for that, you could leave bongs and bottles of liquor out all you wanted, just not a toaster or halogen lamp). To get in trouble for drugs or booze on campus, you either had to have a keg party in a dorm room or be openly dealing in the stupidest possible way.

      2. Same here. Of course, the drinking age was 18. My recollection is that the average dorm room was more likely to have pot at any given time than beer or certainly booze.

  11. “Part of that learning experience is being able to speak on their own behalf, take responsibility for their own behaviors and engage in a conversation about changing their behavior in the future.”

    Another one of those “conversations” eh? We all know what that means? I think that little rhetorical flim-flam has hit the end of its shelf life.

  12. Methinks Mr. Haggard doesn’t want due process horning its way into his little show trials. Petty tyrants are going to be petty.

    1. Cardassia has the finest legal system in the quadrant, Epi.

  13. Your random unintelligible Jezebel paragraph:

    It doesn’t take a 2013 Bella Abzug to point out that while we’ve come a long way, baby, we’ve got a long way to go. Especially since a certain contingent of what Tina Fey brilliantly christened “grey faced m[e]n,” who have decided that the best way to “fix the economy” is to “crawl all up inside women’s bodies like creepy legislative parasites.” There’s also the lingering issues of equal pay, maternity leave, affordable childcare, social attitudes about women’s bodies and who has a right to access them and when, and general social fuckery around how women are depicted in media.

    1. If childcare isn’t affordable, don’t have children. You’re a responsible, sensible, mature woman. Do the fucking math.

      1. The World’s Funniest Human Being:

        Backstory: Nine-ish months ago, Alec and Hilaria Baldwin did a special kind of hugging, and then today a baby came out! JUST LIKE IN THE SCIENCE MOVIES. The baby is a girl and they named it Carmen Gabriela and now it lives with them and Alec Baldwin touches its poop and stuff. Congrats! A baby!

        1. She has the most surreal sense of humor in the world. It’s not just that it’s not funny. It’s that it seems like it would be funny if you were an alien who was unused to human culture.

          1. I think its more a simple case of an unfunny person who tries really really hard to be funny. She’s constantly smashing watermelons but can’t even manage to do that in a mildly amusing manner.

            1. I think all of her stuff would be funnier if spoken, but without the changes in inflection and pace, it just looks like word vomit on the page.

              1. I can’t imagine her real life delivery and timing to be TERRIBLY EPIC. Maybe if you were on a certain kind of drug called being stupid! And speaking of EPIC Baby Baldwin vomits on Alec’s shoulder, I wonder if he finds that stuff toxic?

      2. Because not picking up the tab for someone else is “denying them access”.

    2. still flogging the equal pay horse. And maternity leave, because no organization has ever offered that. Ah, well; where would society be without the harridan brigade.

      1. And they must be aware that “unequal pay” is bullshit at this point since it’s been so thoroughly and publicly debunked numerous times. So they are just flat out lying and they know it.

        1. And they must be aware that “unequal pay” is bullshit at this point since it’s been so thoroughly and publicly debunked numerous times. So they are just flat out lying and they know it.

          I disagree.

          The ones who flog that horse have no fucking clue, and chalk any evidence against their hypotheses to the patriarchy and keep on marching. Facts mean nothing. It’s all about the narrative.

      2. Aren’t employers already required to offer maternity leave?

        I guess it isn’t good enough until you get full pay for 2 years and then get to return to exactly the same job you left on exactly the same terms.

        1. Paid, no. Unpaid, yes. Some states require paid. Most employers offer it, even though not required.

    3. I posted the following this morning and it applies now:

      THERE IS NO GENDER PAY GAP!

      Say it with me: There is no gender pay gap.

      Those articles are from the Atlantic and CBS News. It isn’t as if these dipshits have an excuse not to know because the only people reporting it are Breitbart and Townhall. It’s been known to be a lie for 25 years, and the persistence of this lie on the left is unbelievable.

      They’re so predictable that I can just copy and past earlier posts and have them be applicable.

  14. “SHUT UP! We’re trying to have a conversation with you.”

    1. *golf clap* followed with a nod of approval.

  15. “Part of that learning experience is being able to speak on their own behalf, take responsibility for their own behaviors and engage in a conversation about changing their behavior in the future.”

    So my roommate, who was falsely accused of rape, should have taken responsibility for what exactly? Carrying the drunk girl who came on to him back to her room after she peed in his lap?

    1. I had the exact same accusation leveled against me and two friends.

      We were at a party and this girl was falling down drunk. We noticed a group of guys acting in an extremely predatory way towards her, so when she got free for a second, we took her back to the dorm.

      The next morning she reported she couldn’t remember anything. The RA saw us put her in her room. Then she said she “feels like” she “may have” had sex. OH SHIT

      It took weeks to clear up. Fortunately we were the good kids of college, so our word went a long way.

      1. Goes to show you what happens when you get involved. Thanks to your intervention that girl wasn’t raped. Now how are we supposed to have a conversation about rape if the girl in question wasn’t’ raped? And then on top of that, you wouldn’t stand up and take the blame for the rape that you know would have occurred anyway. Thanks your commitment to honesty, a real teaching opportunity was lost. Thanks a lot you big jerk. Misogynist!!

        1. I omitted a certain detail in the story so as not to bog down the discussion. Care to guess what that was? šŸ˜›

          1. The girl was an atheist anti-abortion activist who bragged that her deep-dish pizzas were the best?

            1. “DEEP DISH” IS NOT PIZZA!!!

          2. You were the chick?

          3. One or both of your friends were gay and thus had enough lefty street creed to kill the allegation?

          4. YOU were the drunk chick?

          5. I omitted a certain detail in the story so as not to bog down the discussion. Care to guess what that was? šŸ˜›

            You and your buddies actually gang-banged her and lied your way out of it?

            1. ^^this^^

              seen on the “vintage” section of your fav interwebz site.

          6. She was a guy?

            1. L-O-L-A Looooola….

      2. Gee, I wonder why more and more men are avoiding college?

        1. And will soon be avoiding the military. I swear to God they have only made up the whole sexual assault meme as a way to create an excuse for the draft.

          1. And that will work out just dandy. Nothing like a bunch of unmotivated resentful conscripts for military readiness.

          2. Well, then they will just need to draft more women and make them be prostitutes. If you can force soldiers to kill and be killed, forcing them to fuck isn’t really that big of a deal.

      3. My roommate would have been dead meat, had it not been for the fact she had made the same accusation a handful of times at other guys.

        The scenario in each case involved her getting drunk at a bar and having some guy take her back to his place and molesting her. The guys always claimed she had been an enthusiastic participant who had suggested going back to their place.

        Fortunately in my roommate’s case she lost control of her bladder before the clothes started coming off *AND* I was an asshole who was writing up a lab report and I’M NOT LEAVING BECAUSE THERE’S NO WAY I’M GETTING A BAD GRADE SO YOU CAN GET LAID! I was probably the only person who wasn’t drunk for 60 yards and my testimony to the RA investigating her accusation fatally holed her case.

        1. What is scary is that being a rape victim is a great way to get a ton of attention and sympathy and for lack of a better term street creed in feminists circles. I could totally see how someone who had emotional issues and a tremendous need for attention and a sense of belonging could see making a rape allegation as a way of doing it. We have created such a cult of the victim in this country.

          1. street creed

            I CREATED MY OWN PRISON YO
            YO

        2. and golden showers? Holy ^#%%@! you guys are sick!

      4. Was she hot?

    2. His reality has to conform to their narrative. It doesn’t matter that he didn’t rape her. Rape is a real problem. And if him admitting to a rape he didn’t commit causes society to better deal with that problem, then that is what he needs to do.

      You need to stop confusing things with all of your “facts” tarran. Just stop and remember what is important here, and your friend’s little issue is not anything compared to the societal problem of rape.

  16. This applies only to state schools and not private schools, right?

    1. It appears so:

      North Carolina university system policies had prohibited students from having legal counsel when interacting with administrators during proceedings.

      1. Just because only the state schools prohibited it doesn’t mean the mandate doesn’t apply to all schools.

        1. OK, see, that’s where I said, “Appears” so.

          But you can do your own research.

        2. It applies only to constituent members of the UNC system. The linked article had a link to the text of the law here.

    2. That’s my question. I see a difference. And this could open a can of worms.

      What is “legal?”

      Can a government funded school impose more stringent rules than the laws in that state already provide? For instance, if there is no open container law in that state/town can a public university say no open containers on campus?

      And in the case of a private school, can they simply say that attendance is contingent upon giving us ultimate authority?

      1. Most people would argue that you don’t have an unfettered human right to possess an open container of alcohol on public property. I disagree, but that doesn’t matter.

      2. Government monies in the form of financial is used to put all sorts of horrid requirements on private schools. (See the athletics genital quotas of Title Ix.) Yet if you suggest using the same logic to require private schools to allow counsel, people will look at you as if you’re some sort of whack job.

      3. It only applies to constituent institutions of the UNC system, as the linked article mentioned.

  17. I didn’t know that you couldn’t bring counsel to these hearings–just figured most people didn’t bother. How is that legal?

    1. It is a private administrative hearing. No due process rights at all. I would think however that courts would view attending a state funded school as a property right and impose some due process before schools kicked students out.

      You can’t just kick someone out of public housing. How can you do the same out of a state university?

      1. A state actor depriving a citizen–an adult citizen, mind you–from a property right. I don’t care what the practice is, why can’t they have representation?

        I know some administrative hearings don’t allow for representation, but I thought that was based on situations where there’s no direct due process issue. It’s been a long time since I knew anything about this, so I could be wrong. Even so, I think a deprivation of rights by government should come with full due process rights.

  18. I eagerly await the line item in the ObamaEd ratings system for “Successful Sexual Assault Charge Convictions”.

  19. You can’t just kick someone out of public housing. How can you do the same out of a state university?

    The end justifies the means.

  20. this is pushing further down the education ladder .. not that I have any intention of sending my kid to a public school (but shit private schools are expensive around here), but if we do enroll him in one, his standing order will be to to remain silent until i’m on there with a lawyer.

    1. I did exactly that with all four of mine. And my boy did mostly as he was told. (He had been in a bathroom where there was a fight.) They even had a cop threaten him. Typical 16-year-old boy couldn’t quite keep his mouth shut. “What? I don’t have my legitimate rights? Then the Constitution isn’t the legitimate Constitution. The government isn’t the legitimate government. You aren’t a legitimate officer of a legitimate court. In that case, you can start breaking my kneecaps now, you thug.”
      The cop honestly repeated that line in court trying to get him for threatening him. Fortunately the judge noticed he was telling the cop to beat on him, not the other way around.

      1. Your kid sounds like my kind of smartass.

        And that sounds like typical cop behavior, in that the way the cop perceived what your kid was saying was utterly different than your kid’s entire point.

      2. They charged him with making a threat? Amazing.

        1. The Constitution is a threat of the highest order to the oppressing class.

  21. “A key component of the developmental process of responding to student misconduct is for the student to take responsibility for their own behavior and to learn from the incident,” said Bill Haggard, vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Asheville. “Part of that learning experience is being able to speak on their own behalf, take responsibility for their own behaviors and engage in a conversation about changing their behavior in the future.”

    Shorter less bullshit version: “How are we gonna railroad students into incriminating themselves if they’re allowed to have a lawyer present?”

  22. Sometimes man, you jsut have to roll with it.

    http://www.AnonRights.tk

  23. Honestly, I can’t fathom for the life of me why campus student courts are the proper venue to deal with this sort of matter. If the guy is innocent, the protections one would normally rely on in a court of law are absent. If the guy is guilty, you’re making his punishment expulsion from school. For rape. Really?

    1. It’s simple. They believe it’s better that 1000 innocent men be convicted of rape than 1 rapist go free.

      1. You’re more generous than I am in your assessment. Honestly, I’m not at all convinced that nailing any actual rapists to the wall is even part of their agenda. I mean, if your intention was to punish a rapist, are you going to tell me that you’d be satisfied with “kicked out of school” as a punishment? Personally, I’d want the bastard tried in a real court and sent to “pound-you-in-the-ass prison”. This process, on the other hand, seems like it’s designed to ensnare the innocent.

        1. I would think that for charges of serious crimes like rape or assault, the school should have nothing to do with determining guilt or punishment. Put the student on administrative suspension while he/she is tried and kick them out if they are convicted.

          1. Yes, and turn the case over to the local law enforcement authorities. That WOULD make a lot more sense. If you were aiming to see actual rapists or sexual assailants punished. What you have here would be absolutely absurd in pursuit of that goal. On the other hand, if your aim were to put a proverbial sword of Damocles over the head of every man on campus, I don’t imagine your solution would be much different from this.

  24. Inside Higher Ed explains that college administrators consider the purpose of disciplinary hearings to find “responsibility,” not guilt, and to “teach good citizenship [rather] than punish wrong behavior.”

    This is pure bullshit. My sophomore year I was accused of cheating on a lab assignment. I had my evidence and witnesses all lined up, including the returned, graded write-up of the lab. The original trial ended with four panel members voting not guilty, but the department’s representative voted guilty. I got to appeal in front of the full honor court six months later, but that same asshole was on that panel and still voted me guilty. Three months after that I was finally cleared, but in the meantime they made me jump through all kinds of hoops because one teaching assistant screwed up one morning and marked me absent for a lab section.
    A total of 22 honor court members voted me not guilty, but one staff member gets to veto? Pure bullshit.

  25. If any of them are Star Trek DS9 fans, I wonder how they feel about the Cardassian view of the justice system.

    Perhaps they would prefer that the student is only allowed a Nestor who will help him cleanse his soul by confessing his crime and assuaging the feelings the people.
    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nestor

  26. There is that psychiatric illness known as Munchowsen Syndrome where the mother poisons and in some cases slowly murders her child in an effort to get the attention associated with being the mother of a sick or dying child. I don’t know if there is anything particular about being a mother that triggers this sort of emotional imbalance in these women. But I don’t see why that would necessarily be the case. So what about women who suffer from these problems who don’t have a child to poison? Wouldn’t making false rape allegation be a pretty predictable manifestation in such cases?

    I would curious to find out. But I doubt the research has ever been done. Anyone who wants to ask that question better have tenure and be ready for the Molotov cocktail that is soon to come through their office window.

    1. Looking for unearned sympathy can take any number of manifestations. Progressives are constantly looking for unearned sympathy through fake hate crimes, their little marches over total non-issues, and the temper tantrums they throw when a rodeo clown has the temerity to mock the God-King.

      False allegations of assault or rape is just another form of the same thing.

      1. Yeah, but John has made a good point in general about the cache of victimization. Being a victim, within certain circles, gives you the most “cred” you can get. And John has rightfully pointed out this is why many of the feminist bloggers that are so often linked to by the chronic masochists around here say that everything is rape or stalking or any of the myriad of things that give them victim cred in their group. Because if they can lower the bar, they get victim cred, and that is what they desire most. It gets them attention, and pity (why they would want that is beyond me, but hey), and let’s not forget: it gets them the ability to not be questioned. It gives them, in their world, a “shut the fuck up you can’t challenge me because VICTIM!” card.

        It’s creepy and fucked up and gross, but it’s out there.

        1. Exactly. The elevation of victimhood to an unassailable moral position is extremely dangerous and anti-reason. It also paves the way for a populist dictator of the Robespierre variety.

          1. And it is not just feminism and rape. One of the reason MADD has been able to get so much crazy shit passed is that they are very adept at using the families of victims of drunk drivers as fronts. This person’s daughter died so no one is allowed to think rationally about the subject or in any way object to what they are saying. Drug warriors have also been good at this. My son died of a drug overdose. How dare you tell me it should be legal to sell that poison to kids.

          2. I just don’t get the appeal. Look at me! I got victimized! Look at me!

            I know it’s mostly a product of the victim status getting attention and essentially social power, but it’s still fucked up. “I win…by losing!”

            1. Narcissism. It used to be people were expected to have some dignity and not bear their suffering to the world. But then came the therapeutic culture and people were told to tell the world everything. Look at me!! And the irony of the whole thing is that the people who kept their tragedies to themselves and did their best to move on and not dwell on it ended up being a hell of a lot better adjusted and happier than the later generations who were told by all of the right thinking professionals to publicly wallow in their misfortune.

              1. Hitchens blamed this on the entire idea of the personal being political. I don’t have the exact quote, but he said that the instant he heard that the personal was political he knew a bad idea had entered the world. Before he knew it people were talking about their feelings instead of about their thoughts and always needed to make sure you knew how a political issue related to them personally instead of just explaining why their idea was best.

                From there it’s a pretty quick jump to having a victim fetish.

                1. Hitchens was exactly right on that one. I am not sure there has been a worse idea post world war II than the personal is political.

            2. I know it sounds trite, but to some extent I blame Donahue, Oprah, and every other media slut who trotted out the most pathetic cases of pity parties ever seen on television.

              Instead of the successful, instead of the geniuses, instead of the most determined, the country worshipped at the altar of the losers. they would argue over who was a bigger victim because that would win the argument over who was “right”.

              1. Well, that’s precisely why this shit is so popular. It’s a way for the losers to win. So of course they gravitate towards it. The losers of this world are perpetually trying to find some way to make being a loser be a good thing.

        2. let’s not forget: it gets them the ability to not be questioned

          This is the real key.

          The arguments of the left – particularly those rooted in complaints of race and class and sex – are easily exploded. No new arguments have been devised in decades, and refutations of the old ones are just a mouse click away at any moment.

          The left is additionally handicapped by the fact that they have tried to embrace and co-opt Enlightenment era concepts related to rights and natural law – and the problem with doing that is that rights theory and natural law theory are a real burden to you when you want to argue for expropriation, re-education and mass peonage.

          This has led the left, somewhat predictably, to embrace the concept of the ineffable. There is just something that can’t be explained about being poor, black or female, and that ineffable something is why the left is right, and by demanding verbal explanations of the issues at hand, you’re just being an evil exploiter who doesn’t check his own privilege.

          “I’m a victim, with feelings you can’t understand!” is the rhetorical replacement the left employs in the space where they used to have to put proof.

    2. Munchausen by proxy, I think it is called (just plain Munchausen is when you pretend to be sick or exaggerate your own sickness). Probably the funniest name of any psychiatric illness.

    3. Actually Munchausen’s syndrome would be doing something bad to onesself to gain sympathy, the one that makes the news because it’s mothers doing it to their kids in Munchausen’s by Proxy.

      And it goes beyond merely making false accusations because it entails convincing yourself that you were raped so you get the whole victim thing going

  27. OT: received quarterly newsletter from city of Middletown, where I live. For fiscal year ending 6/30/13, the city came in 16% under budget. Compare and contrast with Detroit.

    Of course, they wont be giving us a 16% tax break this year, the bastards. But they are frugal bastards, I will give them that.

    1. Let me guess, the public employee unions don’t run the town?

      1. Among other things.

        They did waste $20k on seed funds for a statue, because Middletown once provided KY with a governor.

        He already has a park and a street, I dont know why he needs a statue too.

        But, at least the $20k is the entire statue commitment, the rest will be paid for via donations and etc.

  28. Is anyone working at Reason today? Hasn’t been a new story posted in 2 hours. Nick, crack the whip, man!

    1. Look, you can complain, or you can help. Why not just post your own article right here?

      I’ll give you a topic: Small town council employs shock collars to keep council accountable to citizens.

      1. Small town council employs shock collars to keep council accountable to citizens.

        Today,

        Small town council employs shock collars to keep council accountable to citizens.

        The end.

        LEAVE A COMMENT

        VIEW COMMENTS (1)

        Fist of Etiquette| 8.26.13 @ 2:33 PM |#|?|filternamelinkcustom

        Something, something, something…

        1. Fist of Etiquette| 8.26.13 @ 2:33 PM |#|?|filternamelinkcustom

          Something, something, something…

          Episiarch| 8.26.13 @ 2:34PM|#|?|filternamelinkcustom

          Something about Fist’s mom

          WhateverNicoleisnamedthisweek| 8.26.13 @ 2:36PM|#|?|filternamelinkcustom

          Something about girl stuff

          Episiarch| 8.26.13 @ 2:36PM|#|?|filternamelinkcustom

          Nicole, that’s just because you’re the worst since worst came to worst town.

          I feel like this is a pretty good representation of what the comments would look like on that article.

          1. That seems pretty accurate. I’ll have to try and be less predictable in the future, though we all know nicole will stay the worst.

      2. I’ve got an article, well a link to an article that literally made my head explode. I’ll probably miss the evening links anyway.

    2. Nick is too busy hanging out at the Daily Beast and being a cosmotarian.

  29. A couple of years ago, my son, who was in middle school at the time, was accused of cheating by his math teacher for allowing a young lady to copy math problems from his homework. Apparently allowing someone to do something and not putting up enough of an objection constitutes the same offense as the person actually committing the offense. The assistant principal became involved and forced my son to sign the truth book, which is a book in which you cannot write a lie. My son wrote in the truth book that he did not cheat. This compounded the problem because not only did he cheat, but he also wrote a lie in the truth book. My son spent the next couple of hours being interrogated by 3 different school administrators, one of whom told him that he could look at someone and tell they were lying. Ultimately, he ended up with Saturday school detention for his part in the cheating scandal.

    1. and from that point forward he was homeschooled.

      Right?

    2. Heh, reminds me of the cop who said he was certified to measure speed visually.

    3. When I found out what happened, I went ballistic and had a very loud verbal encounter with the assistant principal in question. I asked her why she would even think about interrogating my son without at least having a parent present or, failing that, his legal counsel. She looked at me like I had grown a third eye. She explained to me that students do not have the right to have a parent present or legal counsel in a school disciplinary matter. I was floored. I asked her if she would have representation in a disciplinary matter against her. She responded that she would. I then said that just because my son is 12 does not mean he has no right to legal counsel counsel or, at a minimum, have a parent present when being threatened by a school official. Ultimately I refused to permit Saturday detention. I have since pushed unsuccessfully for two reforms: 1) to not permit any school official from questioning students without having a parent and/or legal counsel present and 2) to modify the student code of conduct informing students of their right to not only remain silent when interrogated by school officials but also their right to have a parent and/or legal counsel present at any interrogation by a school official.

    4. “Truth book”??

      What? Seems like if they want to insist on the book, they should have to accept whatever is written in the book as truth.

  30. Discomfort with constitutional protections…

    The Sixth Amendment’s right to counsel applies to criminal prosecutions. Is a college disciplinary hearing a criminal prosecution?

    1. Who cares?

      College disciplinary processes are oftentimes ridiculous kangaroo courts. If the North Carolina legislature wants to make them less absurd and arbitrary by extending a right to counsel to defendants, bully for them. The Sixth Amendment delineates floor of procedural safeguards for accuseds, not a ceiling.

  31. Universities have a habit of scrambling to punish students involved in criminal investigations, even before judicial charges or convictions, and even if the conduct of university’s own police is called in to question. The university’s own “investigation” of course opens the possibility for the student’s defense in actual judicial proceedings to be compromised.

Please to post comments

Comments are closed.