Rand Paul Supports the Hagel Filibuster: Will It Lose Him Antiwar Libertarians?
The places where antiwar conservatives and libertarians gather are mad at Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) for participating in the filibuster against the Chuck Hagel nomination vote for Secretary of Defense.
Ed Krayewski blogged about Paul's stated reasons for this here at Hit and Run earlier today, focusing on whether he had been properly transparent about possible sketchy foreign donations. (Dave Weigel at Slate takes on one of the more lurid accusations against Hagel, involving accusations of donations from an apparently non-existent terror loving group, "Friends of Hamas.")
Many antiwar folk see Hagel as a best-case-scenario in this vale of tears for a Defense Secretary who isn't reflexively for Middle East war. And from that perspective, the guy who tried last week to set himself up as the new voice for a Republican foreign policy of containment of, rather than war against, radical Islam is losing the thread and losing any chance for their love.
An impassioned voice along those lines, Daniel Larison at American Conservative, who insists Paul is "permanently damaged" by his Hagel move:
It was bad enough that Sen. Paul chose to side with the people who loathe the foreign policy of restraint he was describing last week, but what made it even worse is that a yes vote from Paul would have concluded this drawn-out farce of a confirmation process and allowed the Senate to vote on the nomination itself. Four other Republicans voted for cloture, and none of them had just given a speech outlining an argument for a "more restrained foreign policy." If any Republican in the Senate should have rejected the extraordinary filibuster of a Cabinet nominee, it ought to have been Paul.
…. the justification he gave may have been the worst of all. If Paul had some irreconcilable disagreement with Hagel on principle or policy, it would have at least made sense to vote as he did. Instead, Paul endorsed one of the worst, least credible anti-Hagel arguments of all, which is essentially the Ted Cruz argument that Hagel needs to "prove" that he is not in league with foreign governments or sympathetic with terrorists. If he ended up voting yes on the nomination, Paul could repair some of the damage with antiwar conservatives and libertarians, and he could make good on his claim to being a realist, but most of the damage will likely be permanent….
I have been unable so far to get any direct comment from Paul on Hagel past his official statement that Krayewski blogged. So it's all speculation, but perhaps an argument could be made to mollify the antiwar right and libertarian wings that he knew the attempt to filibuster was merely a delaying tactic prelude to an eventual nomination--thus winning him those good team player brownie points without actually preventing a possibly pretty good Secretary of Defense. (For such a political tack to work, Paul could never say such a thing out loud, even if true.)
Maybe. Or maybe he genuinely thinks Hagel might be crummy, or not better than whoever the eventual nominee might be if somehow they actually did prevent him from ending up DefSec. In this case, contra Larison, it helps that his stated reasons for jumping on the filibuster have nothing to do with his policy positions, but with vague worries about possible appearances of impropriety possibly buried in non-public records, even if those worries are silly.
Jim Antle at Daily Caller collates a lot of the anger at Paul over the Hagel move.
UPDATE: Rand Paul addresses antiwar anger to the Daily Caller. The gist: Hagel is by no means such a tried and true noninterventionist that Paul should feel obligated to support him unquestioningly:
"You would think by some of the comments I get that Hagel is really Harry Browne," Paul quipped, referring to the 1996 and 2000 Libertarian Party presidential candidate. "They make him out to be some sort of libertarian champion, and he's not."
Paul allowed that Hagel favored a "somewhat less aggressive foreign policy," but described him as a "believer in most intervention," listing his votes in favor of the Patriot Act, foreign aid and the Iraq war.
"All of this is not to say that I won't in the end still vote to allow him," Paul said. "But I also want information on Brennan and I need my colleagues' support."
"Do I think Hagel deserves credit for being a war hero and for speaking out against waste in the Pentagon?" Paul asked. "Yes."
But the senator said he doubted Hagel would have much impact on the Obama administration's foreign policy. "I'm not sure Obama is less interventionist than Bush," Paul said.
[Original Post Resumes]:
Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com presents the detailed case for why antiwar folk should crave Defense Secretary Hagel. The nub:
The American people are sick and tired of the untrammeled militarism that has characterized our foreign policy for the past decade or so. They are also sick and tired of the chickenhawks and laptop bombardiers who have exhausted the nation's resources, demoralized our military, and brought us to the brink of national bankruptcy. That's one of the reasons they rejected the GOP in a landslide election, and it's why polls show a plurality of support for Hagel's confirmation, including 28 percent of Republicans. This, after an unprecedented smear campaign, including television ads, in which the Israeli lobby threw everything at the nominee but the kitchen sink…
No doubt the anti-Hagel hate campaign – and the phony "revelations" – will continue. After all, political consultants have to make a living, and the neocon smear machine has plenty of funding – yes, foreign funding – to grease its wheels. So those wheels will continue to turn, but this perpetual motion contraption is quickly churning itself into irrelevance. No one but the neocons' dwindling hard-right fan base is even listening anymore – and, with this defeat, their power is on the wane….
Hagel is no Ron Paul: I don't agree with his views in several important instances, but those disagreements pale beside the one vitally important aspect of this affair: a prominent public figure who has taken on the Israel lobby has somehow managed to make it through most of the confirmation process and is almost certain to become Secretary of Defense. That is a great victory….
Daniel McCarthy at American Conservative warns libertarians or peaceniks inclined to want to like Paul that his goals and theirs might not coincide. Quotes with comment:
Rand's vote shouldn't come as a surprise, and there are a few things that we should all understand going forward.
Since he first won the Kentucky GOP Senate nomination in 2010, Rand Paul has set out to become the Republican's Republican—not in the sense of being the most loyal party trooper, but in the sense of being its most ideologically committed leader. So when other Republicans propose cutting government, Rand urges deeper cuts. When Marco Rubio gives the party's official State of the Union rebuttal, Rand gives the Tea Party response. The brand he cultivates is that of the antithesis of the RINO Republican. He takes the party's core rhetorical concerns—taxes, states' rights, smaller government—and pushes them farther….
But if that were all Senator Paul wanted to do, he would not make a speech at the Heritage Foundation citing George Kennan and calling himself a realist. Talk is cheap—but these weren't words that fit with his attempt to be the Republican's Republican. Nor have some of his efforts on civil libertarian issues and the drug war in particular been what you would expect from someone who just wants to be as acceptable as possible to the activist GOP base. One should not make too much of this—but one should not dismiss it, either.
I think one needs to make a lot of it, actually. McCarthy hits on a difficult dichotomy in Paul's political goals, but I think he is overweighting one over the other. There is no way to make sense of some of Paul's actions except by saying that, sometimes, he's trying to fit in very well with what an expected GOP voter could be expected to approve of. But there's no way to make sense of others without assuming he is a sincere libertarian trying to further sincere libertarian goals.
I don't think we have enough evidence to be sure which will dominate as his career goes on--especially if you read the Hagel move in light of an awareness on his part that Hagel will end up with the gig.
More McCarthy:
There's a very important lesson here that opponents of neoconservatism have studiously refused to learn: in politics, the only things you can rely on—underscore "rely"—are money and votes. If you have either of those—if you have Sheldon Adelson or John Hagee–you can modify a Republican politician's behavior, whatever his personal ideological orientation. There are no votes and no billionaires on the side of noninterventionism, not in a GOP primary. When Ron Paul voters announce that they won't support his son in 2016, they're not making a credible threat, because Ron Paul never had enough votes in 2008 or 2012 to get close to the GOP nomination, and there's plenty of campaign cash to be had elsewhere than from Ron Paul's small donors. Rand Paul doesn't need you. He wants you—just as he wants every vote he can get—but he's not going to choose your single vote over the votes of 200 ill-informed GOP primary voters who believe what Fox News tells them about Chuck Hagel.
I think it's true, and I told Business Insider as much when Paul endorsed Romney, that Paul will be more willing to alienate a core angry Paulite antiwar audience than the great mass of Republicans. That said, I think Paul recognizes that there is a lot of necessary money and support in his father's base--over 2 million is not a laughable amount of votes to lose, especially in a game of margins. Ron Paul nearly outraised Santorum and Gingrich combined in 2012, and there are potential superrich libertarians to play the SuperPac game for Rand if need be.
That said, we don't know the extent to which being a supernoninterventionist who makes every decision to satisfy other supernoninterventionists is key to not losing the Paul base. I don't think Paul is ready to give it up entirely, though he may be thinking that though certain bastions of print and Net commentary full of very serious and dedicated antiwar conservatives and libertarians exist, and you can get the 'Net riled by crossing them, they are a small portion of that Ron Paul 2 million.
Neither I nor McCarthy nor Paul can be sure how many such diehards there are, or how vital keeping them fully satisfied may be for Paul's career going forward. Especially given that Paul made sure his stated reasons had nothing to do with Hagel being insufficiently raring for Middle East War. That leaves room for even those who see staunch noninterventionism as the highest political value to decide that, though it's a shame Paul wasn't bold enough to tell the neocons to shove it on Hagel, that he's still the best the Party has to offer on foreign policy.
This is not written in my own defense of the idea, nor in denial of the idea, that Hagel is a secretary of defense that all antiwar folk must of necessity get behind or be cast into outer darkness. I have not put in the hours thoroughly exploring his record, though I like that he seems willing to not reflexively assume that what's good for Israel is good for the U.S. of A.
Me in the Sunday New York Times on Paul's attempts to build a less bellicose Republican Party.
Bonus Hageliana: an alas unaired SNL sketch that mocks the reflexive Israel above all questioning of Hagel, which the standard right is finding disgraceful, arguing that Hagel's own bad performance is far, far funnier a topic.
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"Libertarians for Chuck Hagel"
Now I've heard it all.
+11
I honestly don't understand how anyone but a pure TEAM BLUE hack can support the Hagel nom. At best, he's a weak, unqualified placeholder who will do what he's told, so its not like what he believes (if anything) or said in the past will make the slightest difference.
Exactly, I could give a shit about who Obama puts in charge of the DoD because ultimately they're not going to be given any real autonomy.
"Well why don't you put her in charge?!?"
"They mostly come out at night... Mostly"
Hey Nihilist, have you ever been mistaken for a man?
Game over! Game over!
That's mostly my take as well. SecDef is primarily an administrative job. You're basically the CEO of what amounts to one of the largest organizations in the world. The role demands a crack executive, not a policy visionary.
not sure Hagel is the guy on either front. But if you want a career pol, he's as good a choice as any.
Ash Carter seems like a pretty competent guy. They should have promoted from within.
So, Jack Welch for SecDef?
Why not? It's not like we're looking for a field commander, we need someone who can manage an ass load of employees well and make smart purchasing decisions.
"Raymond Tusk, it's a bold choice Mr. President."
A little organizational/cultural change would be big help, also.
But, really, whatever you the SecDef should do, or what qualifications he should have, Hagel's not your man.
Caspar "The Friendly SoD" Weinberger came from a corporate background, and he did OK. Couldn't be worse than the people we've been saddled with recently.
I'm going to be blunt. Who else is the anti-war right going to coalesce around? Rand can relax; it's not like the anti-war right is going to start supporting the crappy democrats being put up in his state.
How about nobody?
Me thinks you are assuming way too easily that those belonging to the anti-war right think life is not worth living without supporting a leech in a suit (a.k.a. a politician)
It's a false dichotomy that just because they're not voting Democrat, they're gonna vote the guy who's only real claim to fame has been that he's Ron Paul's son.
maybe Paul is against it because he thinks Hagel's a total dick.
Maybe Paul is being a true good libertarian: Any impedement to the process of government is a good one.
As for any impediment? Not so much.
I missed the memo that said libertarians had found their man in Hagel's nomination.
I know Christopher Preble @Cato has backed it, but I'm unaware of him having some sort of large appeal in libertarian circles.
In the beginning he sort of seemed like a potential advocate for less war, but his hearing made him sound completely incompetent.
That hearing makes me want to launch an investigation to the long-term effects of corn exposure. He seemed senile.
After long enough corn exposure, anyone will end up senile or dead.
I suppose it's really just a matter of how you ferment and distill it?..
Chuck Hagel who voted for Iraq War II.He was for the war before he was against it.
so Hagel's channeling his inner Kerry? The Obama Administration just gets more impressive by the second, doesn't it.
I actually kinda like Kerry for SoS. I couldn't think of a better Democrat pick.
Uhhh Thomas Friedman, ldo.
Yup. The only reason that Dems like him is because he's another in a chorus of disaffected Republicans who ceaselessly drone on about how "extreme" the current Repub party is and how "reasonable" the Dems are by comparison.
Paul is right in demanding answers. Period.
Anybody that would vote to confirm a nominee for SecDef that stonewalls important questions should be impeached and beaten with a rubber hose for dereliction of duty.
Just so.
I also agree, but I would not want the job of beating them, even though it would be a joy, because the repetitive stress would trash my shoulder and I hate workman's comp.
Rotator cuff surgery is a small price to pay for beating a politician to sleep with the implement of your choice (rubber hose/shovel/tree branch/sch 80 galvanized pipe/ 21" rubber cock/ etc...), plus you might then qualify for disability and ebt, so.....
But think of the damage of delaying the vote another week! The anti-war agenda will never recover!!
Hagel is trying to play Obama's game of not answering questions directly and letting the anti-warriors project a peacenik image onto him. IRL he's just a stooge who won't think twice about doing what he's told. I'm as big a pussy pacifist as you'll find and I could give a shit if Hagel gets the job.
I applaud your correct use of the strike tag.
And yet Rand is hoping to use this as his ultimate projection onto blank screen as well.
Apparently, he's getting enough support from our resident commentators that he's opposing Hagel because Hagel is an unprincipled asshat who is simply using his past anti-war soundbites (while having voted for the actual wars themselves) to ride into DoD chief where he will do whatever Master tells him. Meanwhile, Paul's lockstep with the GOP leadership will facilitate his image being solid with the Israel lobby and 'Murica crowd. So Rand is banking on the prospect that he will not lose much among his sympathetic libertarian base while expanding his appeal to the broader GOP.
Rand is what his father was, a masterful politician.
Rand is what his father was NOT, a masterful politician.
FIFM
+5
You know, people criticize Ron Paul's skills as a politician... but none of them have gotten millions of votes for president.
He did something right. The fact that he didn't win means he's not the best politician, but not that he's a bad one. A bad one wouldn't have even got elected to a house seat, let alone as many votes for POTUS, and most of his critics haven't ever ran for shit.
Fair enough. Ron didn't really build the movement, as much as it coalesced improbably around this one consistent voice that existed. He was smart enough to channel and grow that movement and it's appeal to the point where it has become a greater political force that it ever had been prior.
Rand is trying to mold that small but vocal fringe movement into something that has legitimate national potential. That is much more difficult and requires a masterful politician, whereas his father was really more of a masterful policymaker with only above-average politician skills.
"Rand is trying to mold that small but vocal fringe movement into something that has legitimate national potential."
Well, molding a small but vocal fringe movement into something more neocon-friendly will give it a bigger national potential, to be sure.
What any of it has to do with libertarianism, i have no idea. It's just setting up whole scores of new dupes waiting to be disillusioned.
Thank goodness masterful politicians will set us free, like all masterful politicians have in the past.
Who was that guy in the 80s that spouted libertarian rhetoric while growing the state, using an aggressive foreign policy and raising taxes?
Anyway, credits to Rand. Ron Paul got them out. Rand will bring (a number of them) right back in. By using the same meaningless, hollow rhetoric and two-timing that made all those people abandon the GOP and support Ron Paul in the first place.
You mean what is father wasn't, right?
You mean 'was not' at the end right?
Yeah. And I think the evidence is mounting that he is good. I half wonder if he just isn't losing his libertarian base because he's the closest we have to a nationally electable candidate with even the most minor libertarian sympathies.
My biggest concern is how far he is willing to compromise to gain national appeal and how much further he will be willing to compromise if he somehow does get elected to the highest office in 2016.
Despite his speech to the contrary, Rand is our Cassius Clay -- and the abolition movement owes a lot to Cassius, despite (or perhaps because of) his political gradualism.
Rand is our Cassius Clay
If his printing press goes missing, tell him to look for it in Cincinnati.
Rand is our Cassius Clay
Two directions I can go with that:
1. Clearly you evidence a pro-Kentucky bias.
2. OH NOES!!! HE WILL CONVERT TO TEH IZLAM AND CALL HIMSELF MOHAMMED!1!1!!1!!!
/'Murica and Israeli lobby
Rand is our Cassius Clay
So Rubio is gonna take a dive like Sonny Liston?
does this make Christie George Chuvalo?
More like Butterbean.
+10,000 calories
In turn, it looks like a whole lot of supposed libertarians and pacifists are mostly pissed that Rand Paul is apparently in thrall to the "Israel lobby" -- because God knows that the US wouldn't get into stupid wars without Israel's help, and that Israel is a uniquely malevolent force in this regard.
He's walking a very fine line, and managing to balance himself on the tightrope fairly well thus far. He has come out as more sympathetic to Israel than it's broad regional opponents, but has also been in favor of paring back wars, interventions, embargoes, and defense welfare to other nations. I think he'll keep personally silent on his reasons for voting in favor of the filibuster here, and may even vote to approve when the time comes (filibuster gives him a chance to meet Israeli lobby purity test and he can just claim that he wanted more information before voting), but will allow his more non-interventionist minded supporters to project a more principled cause for his filibuster.
It's a fine line but it's a principled line, something Hagel does not know how to walk. Hagel is the a-hole who once said the U.S. State Department is "controlled by Israel." I know that kind of talk gives certain "anti-war" libertarians a boner, but for those who are sane Hagel is just a hack politician who panders to the left and who appeared completely incompetent during questioning. I think most libertarians can see through him.
And if Justin Trotsky Raimondo likes Hagel, he must be shit.
OT: Whoever wrote a while back that their brother or cousin wrote a crank letter to the editor signed "PROUD TO BE A DEMOCRAT" (the one that pretended to claim that 'natural born' excluded C-sections), let him know that he seems to have fooled Rush. He read it credulously at about the 14:40 mark today.
He prefaced it was possibly a "hoax" and repeated the qualification throughout. Rush only attributed it as an email attachment from his friend, the author Ted Bell.
Then at the end he cited Snopes's evaluation of it, refusing to believe their claim that while actually published the letter was almost certainly a spoof.
He's never been good at being charitable to his opponents.
+12
At any rate, the author can claim that he successfully got the attention of and/or trolled the host of a show with a ~20M audience. Bravo.
Almost as good as trolling CBS news.
"the reflexive *Israel above all* questioning of hagel" [emphasis added]
I guess if you put it in English, it isn't a Godwin?
A Republican nominating Hagel seems like a step forward in sane military policy; a Democrat doing it seems like a desperate stunt.
I can't decide how I feel about Hagel. Maybe Rand is having the same misgivings. Or maybe he's just monkeywrenching to fuck with Obama.
Opposing a loathed Democratic president on everything might be a good 2016 primary strategy.
I'm with you on the Hagel thing. I guess I just think of him as potentially better than whatever alternative, even if only by a matter of degrees.
Hagel is exactly what every other fucktard in Washington is: a lying stooge. Just like his boss, he'll say some nice-sounding things, get into power, and be a complete statist tool.
Look at me, I must be psychic to predict this.
While that is undeniably true, he may be less statist and craven than whatever the next nominee is.
Although, one thing that occurred to me is that Obama may very well be nominating a once-war-critical GOP stooge for his war policy as a means of negating whatever growing support parts of the GOP was getting in anti-war circles.
It's probably more of an inoculation against the various little interventions he'll keep doing. "Well, antiwar crusader Chuck Hagel think going into Mali is a good idea." [pulls string, Hagel puppet gapes open mouth]
Damnit SF, using the terms "puppet" "gape" and "open mouth" is practically lighting the Warty beacon.
For shame.
You cannot summon what is always with us. Look inside yourself. Warty is there.
I don't have one of those fancy colonoscopy cameras.
All you need is a speculum and a flashlight.
You'll be able to see him soon enough.
If ones stares at Warty too long, one finds Warty staring back at him.
Gosh, it's a shame that Chuck "Ghandi" Hagel wasn't Sec. of Def. to slap Obama around when he started bombing Libya.
Yes, I'm sure that's what would've happened. Unless the Israeli Mossad assassinated Hagel. They control most everything in Washington, you know.
Apologies to Gandhi for misspelling his name (and for putting it in the same sentence as Chuck Hagel).
My problem with Hagel is that, if he ever found religion at all, it was quite late and not in a particularly convincing way.
He voted for Bosnia and Kosovo, so he's not a realist.
He voted for Iraq I and II, so where does that leave us?
I can't decide how I feel about Hagel.
May I suggest contempt and loathing, with the proportions left to your discretion?
A hint of pity.
I find it hilarious that supposedly hardcore antiwar noninterventionist libertarians are so trusting and quick to defend Barack Obama's pick to be SOD. Why? Because he's said somewhat critical things about Israel in the past? Is that now the bar? The ironic thing is (as you can see from the way they attack Rand Paul) is that these people are usually the quickest to play the purity game
You said it best.
You mean the same guys that try to turn Gore Vidal and George McGovern into libertarians?
My favorite was the attempt here to turn Bill Richardson into a libertarian.
Missed that one. Corporate hack to libertarian, sure why not.
No one ever claimed that, at least not the bloggers. First you accuse us of being "purists" and then you jump on us for seeing value in people who aren't ideological libertarians (Vidal has written some great stuff, and McGovern's anti-war stance deserves credit, as does his late-in-life recognition of the harm of gov't beaureacracy)
By claiming that being pro-war is incompatible with being a libertarian is being purist. Then defending guys who aren't libertarian despite this.
That is unless of course you believe that opposing war is the most important aspect. Problem is that this means that libertarianism is kinda of pointless and allying with communists doesn't help either.
Calling North Korea a paradise and all the nasty stuff about it a bunch of warmongering fascist propaganda would be anti-war but not libertarian.
"By claiming that being pro-war is incompatible with being a libertarian is being purist."
By this definition, you may as well claim that it is being purist if i say that socialism is incompatible with libertarianism.
You think undermining the absolute core principle of libertarianism doesn't make you an idiot who is just looking for labels to make himself seem cool?
By this definition, you may as well claim that it is being purist if i say that socialism is incompatible with libertarianism.
Well erm...yes you are being a purist. Also who said being a purist was a bad thing? I agree that socialism is certainly incompatible with libertarianism despite whatever Victorian era meaning that Sheldon Richman could bring up.
Interesting that you bring up socialism considering that anti-war libertarians are quite willing to ally with socialists and communists. It's a bit hypocritical to bring up libertarian purity in that scenario.
By this definition, you may as well claim that it is being purist if i say that socialism is incompatible with libertarianism.
No, because capitalism is a core libertarian tenet, whereas anti-interventionism is merely a view that intersects with a large number of libertarians. You can increase freedom by going into another country and overthrowing its dictator. Whether it's a good idea to do it in a given instance is debatable, but it can be done. You can't increase freedom by having the government redistribute wealth.
Hence my objection to what Gladstone is alluding to: taking an individual like Vidal or Zinn, whose overall views are diametrically-opposed to core libertarian tenets, and heaping praise on them due to their views on something which isn't part of libertarianism and which only some libertarians agree with.
Also if you think opposing the US is the most important aspect of libertarianism then you can pretty much reject the rest of libertarianism. I mean if Kim Il-Seung is an enemy of the US then what exactly is the problem with North Korea?
What Calidissident said. And moreover even if he were anti-war, I don't see anything in Hagel's past that would give any hope that he is capable of making a principled stand on anything. He is a pathetic, craven empty suit who is going to do and say whatever he is told.
Agree completely - Hagel's growing distaste for the Iraq war coincided perfectly with popular opinion. This was not a stand on principle. It was the stand of a smart politician.
"Because he's said somewhat critical things about Israel in the past? Is that now the bar?"
Yes, sadly, that is now the bar for lefty libertarians who's constant objection to foreign aid seems to curiously focus on only one country, Israel.
That's a nice straw man you've got there.
I was always under the impression that anti-war and anti-foreign aid libertarians were more than happy with a complete cut in aid to ALL countries, and only got miffed when your new prophet Rand Paul decided to make an exception for Israel.
So being against making an exception for Israel is now equal to "only focusing on objecting to foreign aid to Israel".
You could become a politician with that logic.
Rand Paul has said he's in favor of gradually cutting aid to all countries, including Israel
The purity game is played with hypocrites who like to claim they are libertarians while showing through their comments that they don't even understand its core principles.
We expect much less from non-libertarians, and therefor are more easily satisfied.
The irony is that this is apparently a problem, except when it comes to the likes of Rand Paul, whom we SHOULD be more easily satisfied with according to most of you so-called libertarians, as though that wouldn't show the same level of "hypocrisy" from purists.
I'm not someone who is afraid to criticize Rand when he is wrong. I just fail to see why he should be criticized on libertarian grounds for opposing Hagel.
Because he's said somewhat critical things about Israel in the past? Is that now the bar?
I don't know much about Hagel, but in my experience, saying critical things about Israel gets you automatic bonus points with certain political sets.
And it works both ways. Saying disparaging things about the Palestinians also gets you bonus points with certain political sets.
I think the Israeli government (like any government) deserves plenty of criticism. (And yes, groups like Hamas deserve even more). However, that alone is nowhere near enough to establish enough credibility to attack Rand for opposing his nomination
Maybe Tulpa is right in saying that HandR is getting more lefty. This is complete authentic Doherty bullshit. First: Hagel is only anti-war to those who have turned delusional from desperation. Like the manaics at antiAmerica.com. Second, fuck this this administration and its stooges. Third: fuck this administration's almost comedically incapable stooges, like Hagel. NOBODY thought his hearing went well. Fourth: Rand is as good as gets and Paultards are a hindrance.
Is it your position that since Paul is the best Senator we have, he is exempt from any criticism ever?
No that's your strawman.
I'd say if Rand really is the best, and you're spending your time criticizing him rather than the are 99 better choices, your motives are questionable.
Only if you believe politics will actually get you anywhere, and if you actually believe Rand Paul represents libertarians.
Well, eschewing politics hasn't been that successful, has it? So I'd say that's up for debate. But even if I accept both of your points, what good comes out of criticizing Rand rather than one of the 99 other senators?
You don't think politics will actually get us anywhere?
So basically your seemingly endless string of complaints about Paul and other politicians is just one long temper tantrum. You've given up and resigned yourself to the idea of endlessly increasing statism, but by god you're going to make sure everyone knows that there is at least one anonymous person on the Internet who is Very Very Angry that things aren't going his way.
I guess I'm not a full-bore Paultard if being at mad at Rand for this is a qualification. I thought I was pretty close.
I take his stated reasons at face value. He won't answer important, pertinent questions, so no vote for him. And I'm fine with that.
now I notice I might have him confused with Brennan.
no I didn't. Different questions. Same reasoning.
No one else knew that so there's that. Sugarfree is just acting like a Chicagoland corpse and voting a hundred times.
HandR aren't getting more lefty.
Commenters here are turning into more and more into Republican politician cheerleaders by the day.
Probably a lot of people here nowadays that shouted "anyone but Obama" before putting a tick at Romney's name.
You know, because between the two he was "the best we've got."
Uhhh citation needed (and you don't get to count Tulpa and John).
So when did Chuck Hagel become a libertarian hero? And does anyone really think that Hagel hasn't sold out by becoming SecDef?
Also why is Paul being attacked for voting against Hagel but not for voting for Kerry?
At some point in the 00s, Reason grabbed onto the idea that anyone who objected to the Iraq war was a Libertarian worthy of respect regardless of how big of a crapweasel they actually were.
Opposition to the Iraq war is for big government crap weasels and Reason like Lourdes is for cripples, it washes away all of their sins.
YUP
Objecting to the Iraq War meant you had at least a spark of intelligence and at least understood the idea of having principles, both being part of the perquisites for being considered a libertarian.
Your continued defense of that horseshit war makes you look like a fool, John.
Objecting to the Iraq War meant you had at least a spark of intelligence and at least understood the idea of having principles,
So no one ever objected to the Iraq war out of anything but the purist of motives? No one ever did it because it was politically expedient and a way to distinguish oneself?
Really Sugar Free. Come on now. You know that is not true. And you know as well as I do a creature like Hegal never had a sincere or principled thought in his life.
Except that Hagel didn't object to the Iraq War -- he voted for it just like everyone else, then balked when -- shock of shocks -- things were not as rosy as initial prognostications predicted. For someone who has lived through as many wars as Hagel (and voted for as many), that shouldn't have been a surprise for him.
Well, people die in war and those wars don't usually go according to script, Mr. Hagel. Maybe you should have thought of that before voting for it, you dumb bastard.
And Sugar Free. Your continued anger over a war that is over and done with and that turned out neither as good as its supporters hoped or nearly as bad as its critics hoped, makes you look like a fool.
"Objecting to the Iraq War meant you had at least a spark of intelligence and at least understood the idea of having principles"
I don't see how you can find the Iraq war as anything but the most pro-liberty major policy initiative over the past 10 or 12 years, at least in terms of the outcome*. An entire country no longer lives in the clutches of a cruel dictator. I'll take that over stimulus bills that make the economy worse, bailout packages that reward failure, gun bans, etc, etc.
*I would say the Bush tax cuts, but because they didn't accompany any spending cuts, their effect was net-zero.
"I don't see how you can find the Iraq war as anything but the most pro-liberty major policy initiative over the past 10 or 12 years, at least in terms of the outcome."
Of course you don't.
And this is what has become of Reason commenters.
No wonder so many people here think Rand is "as good as it gets".
Which major policy initiative had a more pro-liberty outcome?
I'm going to say Drug Legalization in WA and CO.
Any and all lowering of tax rates.
The NH constitutional amendment preventing a future addition of an income tax.
The myriad of anti-Kelo laws passed by various states and localities.
That came at quite a cost. The American people were forced to pay trillions of dollars for a war that did nothing for national security, and 4,500 soldiers died. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, plus wounded on both sides, and a lot of damage to the country. And the end result wasn't exactly Libertopia and it's not clear how stable it will be. Yes, Iraq today is more free than under Hussein, but let's remember that it didn't come at no cost
It was a massive cost and an atrocious. But in the land of runaway, out-of-control statism, a clusterfuck war entered under false pretenses that, by chance only, stumbled on a good outcome, is king.
ugh. "an atrocious endeavor"
So an outcome brought by coercion of other (American citizens' military and monetary support) is justified because it was for a good cause (getting rid of Saddam)? The primary reason I'm against interventionist wars is that they presume the government has the right to make its citizen's support something that has nothing to do with defense of the nation and its citizens. Whether the cause is good or not is not the point, the U.S. government should not be telling it's citizens they have to be part of a war that is not about the continued existence and safety of the United States of America.
If individual people want to go and fight for such a cause, that's on them. The lives and freedoms of American citizens should be politicians' foremost responsibilities, and wars of intervention violate those responsibilities.
darius, I don't think he was saying the war was justified, as he called it an "atrocious endeavor" but that because of how awful the government has been lately, that it is the most pro-liberty policy of the last 10-12 years. I still don't agree with that, but I see where he's coming from.
Yeah, I see that now. It's different from what I thought he was saying.
I just don't see that. It's "you're with us or you're against us" type thinking. I have no problem with acknowledging the good things that someone says, even if many of their other beliefs are contrary to mine.
I don't know why you're attacking Reason for this. Most of the opposition to Rand on this is from the LRC and antiwar.com crowd, who hate the Reason types. Those people were calling them things like "comsotarian" and "Beltway libs" long before people like you were
Also, who gives a shit what Daniel Larison thinks?
Maybe 5 people in the world read his blog.
I might give a shit what he thinks if I had the foggiest idea of who he was...
Exactly...
Even were this 100% true, I still might consider supporting him. Fuck the Rockefeller Republicans.
I thought Paul was holding off on Hagel because he stonewalled on questions about using drones to kill Americans.
That's the other guy, Brennan.
That was Brennan.
That was the Brennan nomination.
You can see how much attention I've been paying to this. *yawn*
There will be a quiz later.
It's not like anyone else knew.
It was the Brennan nomination.
That was Brennan for DCI.
You're late Mr 3:38
That was Brennan.
Brennan
That was Brennan.
C'mon man, it was Brennan. Get with it already.
Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan Brennan
Be careful chanting his name too much. I hear if you do that too much it is like the Bell Witch and he shows up and drone strikes you.
[shrieks in the distance]
He doesn't have to spin in front of a mirror or something? I suppose he could be doing that and we'd never know.
Brennan
Hodor.
LOUD NOISES!
Brennan.
Brian Doherty Supports the Alt-text ban: Will It Lose Him Antisomber Libertarians?
If he loses anti-sober libertarians, he loses them all.
Brennan
Brennan?
It is highly irregular for a cabinet nominee to be blocked, because it is generally assumed that a president having won election will get to pick the people he wants for his cabinet. It is doubly ridiculous in Hagel's case, since he's a Republican (albeit very moderate). The Republicans don't like him because he said mean things about George W. Bush and he's not sporting their neocon perpetual war boners. He's not a libertarian's defense secretary, but he is skeptical of using war to solve problems, which is the best libertarians should expect from the major parties. Rand Paul isn't president yet. It's not his cabinet to make.
I know. It is just like when Bush I easily won election in 1988 and saw the Senate rubber stamp his choice for DOD. The Congress just must be racist.
Because the constitutional requirement for Senate confirmation is really meant to just rubber stamp the executive's authority as a bread and circuses show for the peons right?
Checks and balances are for icky Republicans.
Advise and consent are like hundreds of years old and no one knows what they mean anymore anyway.
I think the burden would be on newbie radical right-wing senators who've changed the way things have been done forever.
The president got legitimately elected. Part of his powers is appointing a cabinet. Advise and consent has not traditionally meant "have a partisan showdown." But I think all reasonable people can agree that barring some extraordinary circumstance the president should get to pick his cabinet and not the party who lost the election.
I know Tony. the burden should be on the Senate. So, if for example there are a bunch of totally unsubstantiated rumors that an otherwise qualified candidate is a womanizer, the burden ought to be on Congress to prove those in order to not confirm. Right Tony?
an otherwise qualified candidate is a womanizer
It's too bad that that fact would get someone turned down.
That was before Bill Clinton back when sex scandals mattered.
But why does being a womanizer have to invalidate someone from holding political office? You know how much better Tiger Woods was when he was banging ever hot chick he could get his hands on?
It shouldn't. But it did for a long time until the Democrats had a President caught in a sex scandal.
Have you tried playing golf with a boner?
Have you tried playing golf with a boner?
I'm not that great of a golfer so I wouldn't want to put my dick through the punishment of hitting a golf ball so many times. Never mind taking a one stroke penalty here and there.
Well, people let you play through, at least.
That sounds about right to me.
Unless it's Clarence Thomas or any other idiot conservative.
I love that you keep saying "legitimately elected" like that means he is fucking King and gets to pick whoever he wants as his Secretaries, constitutional rules be damned.
The people in Congress weren't "legitimately elected", apparently.
In Tony world, only liberal Democrats win elections. Everyone else steals them via fraud, vote suppression, and racism.
Well, did you know in some of the places where Republicans were elected, people had to show that they were actually someone eligible to vote before they got to vote? That's illegitimate right there.
The senate is majority Democratic, in case you didn't notice.
And they've democratically decided that a simple majority isn't good enough.
DIEBOLD AND TEH KORPORASHUNZ ARE PEOPLEZ!!!1!!11!!11!!!!!
advise and consent is predicated on the nominee answering some questions, which Hagel has not yet done, and not looking like a fool, which he has done.
So I guess the Senators were not legitimately elected too?
Damn you precognitive bastard.
It's not the Senate's job to appoint cabinet secretaries. Advise and consent was put into the constitution as a compromise between those favoring a strong executive and those favoring more checks and balances. Whatever the original intent, it's now being used in an unprecedented way.
And yes they were legitimately elected, and a majority of them are Democrats like the president. Clearly that means the Republicans should always get their way.
Yeah Tony, and you never have a problem with the Democrats block Republican appointees, only when Republicans do it to Democrats. The President is supposed to appoint the judges. But that didn't stop the Democrats from filibustering Janice Rogers Brown because she was black.
Tony, are a partisan hack who is completely incapable of applying the same standards to your side that you apply to the other. This is why no one listens to you and why no one has any respect for anything you say.
The president isn't supposed to appoint people: he's supposed to appoint people with the consent of the senate. If he wants his appointments to happen, maybe he should find someone the senate will consent to.
Whereas you're a totally nonpartisan objective observer. I would roll my eyes as much as your comment warrants, but it would give me a headache.
Blocking appointees who are extraordinarily bad is fine. Using the filibuster as a routine part of business has broken the system and turned the Senate into a minority-rules institution.
ya, it's the Senate's job to veto secretaries. They've been slacking recently, but Rand has em on the right track.
Can you provide evidence for this assertion?
Probably but I was going on conventional wisdom.
is there a war Hagel did not support?
Beyond that, are there any pertinent UN or multilateral treaties of import that Hagel has opposed? If there are, I'm not aware of them.
Or how about on civil liberties? He didn't vote against the PATRIOT Act; what else did he vote for?
Meddling in other people's affairs is a no-go, too -- during the Lebanon War, he was prominent in calling for the US to force a ceasefire.
Someone please explain why this schmuck was given an anti-war soapbox, again.
It's cute that you think Obama isn't going to get us involved in any other wars and that Hagel is skeptical of using war.
Here's a cookie.
It's sad that you've situated your politics in such a way that everything that ever happens in the world is a cause to bitch.
There is a difference between the neocons and the Democrats. The former have a boner for war and the latter don't.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
You ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
A lot of Democrats are neo-cons by any reasonable definition.
Look if we forget about Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama then every single Democratic President this century has been an antiwar.
Weren't the original Neocons disgruntled Democrats?
But....but...war on wiminz,..and..teh clingerz...christfagz...dems have empathy, rethuglican neo-cons don't...so dems =/= neo-con knuckle dragging goons!
(except for...NDAA/patriot act still here, Guantanamo still open, drone operations expanded, expanded wire tapping/surveillance/police state, Libya/Uganda/Yemen/Afghanistan still at war, oh and Mali to, soon...hmm, what else? But, anyway? no other correlations at all!)
"There is a difference between the neocons and the Democrats."
Yeah, one is explicitly left-wing and the other is a left-wing false flag operation.
One side are a bunch of big spending warmongering fascistic statists and the other side are the neocons.
"There is a difference between the neocons and the Democrats. The former have a boner for war and the latter don't."
Ahh yes those peace-nicks LBJ, Clinton and Obama avoided war and state sponsored death at all costs. Quite the revisionist you are Tony.
I must have missed the "President gets whomever he picks" clause.
Senate traditions should be respected, except when they shouldn't be.
It is highly irregular for a cabinet nominee to be blocked, because it is generally assumed that a president having won election will get to pick the people he wants for his cabinet.
Democracy getting in the way of cabinet picks?!! Say it ain't so!
The Republicans don't like him because he said mean things about George W. Bush and he's not sporting their neocon perpetual war boners.
I haz a confuze on this. It's Democrats that sport the perpetual war boners now. It's more of a strap-on, really, it changes from party to party as they win and lose power.
Republicans: "Damn, we lost, better unstrap that thing and hand it to Obama!"
What war have Democrats started lately?
Oh, 'started' is now the metric.
Maintaining them, escalating them don't count. Continuing the ongoing police actions such as drone-bombing Pakistan... or intervening in Libya... nothing to see here. No siree.
I see two of the longest wars in our history ending under this president, and a few surgical interferences, which may not pass pacifist muster, but nobody claimed this president was a pacifist including him.
Post is updated above the original break with some fresh Rand comments on this from DAILY CALLER. Upshot: he doesn't think Hagel will be that great a noninterventionist.
Thanks for the update. It confirmed what my thoughts (and a few others) were about Rand Paul's initial NO vote.
...but that he might well vote for him when a vote comes.
Exactly. Voting for the filibuster will establish cred for him with the warboners even while his stated reason to not lose his base will be that Hagel is too much a warboner.
Win-win. Rand knows how to play the game of thrones.
If he gets the nomination he will lose by historic numbers. And I seriously doubt he can even get out of the primaries.
That may be true, but Rand could be our Goldwater and launch a whole new generation of libertarians via his stage 20 or so years down the line.
Young people are not becoming libertarians. There was a moment for Goldwaterism. Now is a moment for liberalism, as has happened before.
When we inevitably grow decadent and corrupt in our unlimited power, then you can have your turn at the cycle.
It's unsurprising that someone as willfully daft as yourself can't see that you already have.
It's delusional for you not to recognize that we're still enacting near-right policies even from a Democrat dominated government. It will take a generation for us to enact the Scandinavian protocol. All I'm saying is your resurgence is longer off than you hope.
I'm not a right-winger, so your guy's enactment of near-right corporatist warmongering policies gains no support from me, nor does his baseless and actionless lip service to social issues liberalism.
There is no greater sin for a libertarian than political success. /paultard
"There is no greater sin for a libertarian than political success."
That is true in a way, but backwards. Succeeding isn't the sin. It's just that no libertarian has succeeded in any big way while remaining particularly libertarian.
That's because you don't have a fucking clue what a libertarian is.
Otherwise it shouldn't be such a mystery to you.
Just fucking get lost. You don't get to define libertarianism is. Go deal with your anger issues elsewhere.
Hagel's nomination failed 58-40...
but what made it even worse is that a yes vote from Paul would have concluded this drawn-out farce of a confirmation process and allowed the Senate to vote on the nomination itself.
So Paul gets two votes now?
I thought it took 60 votes for cloture, so please correct me if I'm wrong. That or Larison is so upset by this that he can't do math.
Those evil libertarians work in mysterious ways.
Obviously, he gets a vote and then his children-killing-tobacco-funded Kochtopus master gets a vote.
I don't believe the Kochtopus kills children.
They're much too valuable in the diamond and gold mines.
It kills their souls. Remember, the soul is just an invention of the evul flying spaghetti monster until we can claim that an evul rethuglican or bemonocled libertarian is exploiting teh chirunz.
Well obviously it kills their souls, all the better to keep them in line. What I'm waiting for is the technology to actually remove the soul.
Obviously you've not heard of intercision.
From a purely instrumental perspective, opponents of Obama's foreign policy really lucked out with Hagel. DoD is an incredibly entrenched bureaucracy; anyone without the requisite bureaucratic background, or tons of energy and ambition, is going to get flattened by it. Hagel isn't too bright and he's not a bureaucrat -- despite opinions to the contrary, apolitical bureaucrats and politicians tend to loathe each other, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hagel ends up with an office without windows and with a seat that flushes. In a battle between JCoS and SoD, my money goes towards JCoS. Hagel's ineptness will be an impediment for whatever top-down changes Obama wants to implement.
That is a good point. Hegel is too stupid to do much damage. But the bad news is that I think he was appointed to give cover to smarter people who will.
Maybe, but Hagel's background is that of an old, entrenched Senator who fancies himself an expert on foreign policy. That type doesn't generally "fade away", if only due to the vanity of the position. If that's the plan, I think the "smarter people" will be working behind Hagel's back moreso than with him.
And as I recall, that was the rationale behind the Biden VP pick. That worked wonders, didn't it?
See Bill Cohen. He fancied himself as an expert too. And he was a former Senator. And he was a complete nonentity as SecDEF.
I doubt Obama is interested in any top-down changes beyond shifting as much of their budget as he can into free shit programs, and putting through as much social engineering for da wimmenz and da gayz as he can.
Beyond that, I really doubt he cares.
And I suspect that even Hagel is capable of riding herd on those issues.
Really, which do you think Obama would prefer: DOD budget cuts that are managed intelligently and actually get rid of deadwood, waste, and bureacratic overhead, or budget cuts that actually damage the ability of the military to do military stuff? At a minimum, do you think he cares if its the latter?
I think he cares if there's a catfight in Defense where lots of stuff about his administration appointees is constantly leaking and making the news. The Dems could use someone who makes people forget that Benghazi ever happened -- and things like Benghazi don't happen when general competents like Gates are in charge.
Which cuts affect union jerbs?
Admittedly, his administration has tried using the defense dept as a sort of slush fund for various and sundry "green" energy programs.
Nothing greener in this world than the world's largest killing machine.
Considering the concern about overpopulation that that would be a good thing.
I mean it certainly reduced the carbon footprint of Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, etc.
Brennan.
a possibly pretty good Secretary of Defense
Hey, whoaaaa big fella! Let's not set the bar TOO high! How about "not totally sucking" SecDef? How about we start there?
No - this Hagel guy sounds like a complete idiot, and there's NO chance he'll be "pretty good." I'd prefer our SecDef at LEAST have some administrative competency to manage the largest killing machine in the world.
Don't really give a shit why Rand Paul and others are filibustering - wish it would drive Obama to at least TRY to appoint someone else who's maybe at least sentient. But Hagel will probably be confirmed, and life will get a little worse, and the cycle will continue.
Fuck Washington DC, the President, both houses of Congrefs, and the unconsitutional national gummint bureaucracy.
"Congrefs"
It's spelled Congreff.
So did we learn anything from Cass Sunstein and Austan Goolsbee?
I think it's extremely strange that these libertarians who condemn a libertarianish politician for criticizing a non-libertarian warmongerer nominee by an interventionist president are the same libertarians who criticize Matt Welch and the Reason folks as faux-libertarian neoconservatives for not being as virulently anti-war as they are.
Seems very backwards - if you're a principled peacenik like myself you would oppose the nomination of a guy who voted for every war under the sun and you would support filibusters that block his nomination -- ESPECIALLY when the filibusters are partially over answers he's not giving about the legality of drone warfare.
Yes, I'm looking at YOU, Raimondo.
If you're talking about the same Raimondo that I'm thinking of, my first exposure to Raimondo was Raimondo giving complete and utter deference to Obama administration propoganda. Complete, unquestioning deference.
So he is reverting to form?
ESPECIALLY when the filibusters are partially over answers he's not giving about the legality of drone warfare.
No nominee is going to say anyting disparaging about the drone program-- a program that is certified Fresh by the Obama administration.
Nicely put.
I support any and all filibusters, anything that reduces Congress's chance to do anything.
"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
See, Lincoln wasn't so bad...
...oh, wait, he was saying that as a call to unity.
Why have we allowed the Paultards to define what a libertarian is? If they are going to throw their own version of the "libertarian purity" test in our faces, we should point out how retarded they are for being bunk buddies with the Occutard commies.
Paultards are not liberatarians, they are charlatans hell bent on going after the "JOOooooooOOOOooS"
Oh, and this is more Doherty horseshit.
How is this Doherty horseshit? He wasn't the one criticizing Paul. Others were. The fact that he's reporting on it doesn't mean he agrees with them
To some people here, reporting on something is the same thing as supporting it.
The tone is quite supportive. Don't be so obtuse.
How? Because he doesn't call them out?
Simply listing alternatives to their opinions on Rand is "supportive" of those opinions. To be anything but you have to call them names. The positions can't simply speak for themselves.
I also don't recall a "libertarian" foreign policy doctrine. Just because a self-annointed "libertarian" on antiwar.com says something doesn't mean its libertarian.
I'm not saying antiwar.com gets to define it (and I've been critical of them in this thread) but a foreign policy based on aggression is unlibertarian, as it violates the NAP
The Antiwar.com folks are the ones supporting the guy who voted for all the wars...go figure.
I think all the decades of opposing Israel have rotted their brains so they think opposing Israel is in of itself a good thing rather than supporting non-interventionism and libertarian goals.
I agree with you, although I would include the US government in with Israel. I hate our current foreign policy, am not a fan of our government in general, think there are plenty of reasons to criticize the Israeli government, and regardless think we should not be giving foreign aid to or have a permanent alliance with any nation, but I find that Raimondo and those like him far too often make excuses for dictators (like Putin, for example) and various groups just because they oppose Israel and/or the US. The fact that the US and Israeli governments do bad things doesn't mean anyone who opposes them is automatically better, worthy of praise, or undeserving of criticism
Certainly. That is my big problem with the anti-war libertarians. If opposing the US and its allies the only important thing for libertarians then techically libertarianism is useless.
Calling for nationalization of US businesses in foreign countries and tariffs against the US would be anti-American but not libertarian.
Also since I am a Canadian I can see full well that the Anti-American and Anti-War types are usually far from being libertarian. Not to mention they love TEAM BLUE so they are not really all that "anti-American" or "anti-war."
I wonder if that is why Cyto has his war boner.
As to Cyto, I doubt it. While he's vehemently against the "anti-war" non-intervention beliefs, he's very much for things like immigration reform and gay marriage recognition, which are also positions heavy on left-liberal support.
I agree with almost all of what you said, though I would say that I think it's a bit of an unfair generalization to say that antiwar libertarians are like that. While I'm not a pacifist, in the context of American politics I'm a pretty solidly anti-war libertarian, and I don't think that way, nor do many others on this site. Not all antiwar libertarians believe the same things as the LRC and antiwar.com crowd
The reason I have a highly selective war boner is because I'm too aware of world history and events to subscribe to the Faith of Nonintervention.
Oh Cyto, you sure know how to make a guy laugh. Try applying that humorous ignorance to women, it's pure gold. Just don't bring up "we should have nuked Afghanistan": then they'll realize you aren't joking.
I think they're thoroughly within the right to criticize the prevalent Likud mentality in Israel, the unwavering support for such and the continued and brutal provocation of Palestine. Israel has one of the largest state employment to population ratios per capita of any country in the world.
That said, Rand's rhetorical support and Hagel's rhetorical restraint on Israel is not enough to change my opinion that Hagel is a spineless stooge willing to support unprovoked military actions as long as they are politically popular.
It's one thing to say that the Israelis are engaged in a brutal occupation of Palestine and the US should not be funding Israel but it is another thing to say that said occupation is the US' business because of said funding.
The latter is what Raimondo says. So erm why should the US leave Afghanistan and Iraq then? And aren't Iran's problems the US's business because of the Shah whom the US supported?
Ok, so Raimondo is pretty much explicitly stating that because Hagel has criticized Israel, all good libertarians and noninterventionists must support him. Holy shit. I guess his long history of supporting war and statism, as well as his general incompetence is irrelevant. And I said earlier, it's hilarious that he of all people is using this line of reasoning considering how much he criticizes someone like Rand Paul who, while far from perfect, is easily the most libertarian senator and has fought to achieve libertarian goals on a variety of fronts, including foreign policy. Certainly a lot more than Hagel ever did
See Raimondo's comments on the whole Israeli capital plank at the Republican Convention? Basically since the US is funding Israel then the US has a right to intervene in Israeli affairs. So I see he supports interventionism as long as it done by Top Men against regimes he doesn't like. So much for non-interventionism.
I'm as big of a critic of our complicity in Israel's foreign policy and domestic security statism as any here, and I still think it's highly dumb to make one's views on Israel the ultimate litmus test. Also stupid is falling into the "lesser of two evils" mindset they constantly condemn as unprincipled come election time.
I wonder if they seriously believe their hero Rothbard would have supported an unprincipled stooge like Hagel who voted for Bosnia, Iraq, etc. and changed his mind on Iraq only when the war became politically unpopular? Perhaps it's just more delusional anti-Rand Paulism because he's been coopting neoconservative rhetoric to prop up his general inclination towards non-interventionism and boost his presidential chances?
Being bullied into voting for something bad is not the best moral position to be in. Believing the Iraq war to have been a good idea is malicious ignorance. Would you like him better if he never changed his mind? Or should he never have a position in government since he changed his mind about something?
I'd rather a politician follow every whim of public opinion than a bullshit ideology.
"Would you like him better if he never changed his mind? Or should he never have a position in government since he changed his mind about something?"
You are completely missing the point. Do you even know what this discussion is about? It's about a group of libertarians attacking Paul for opposing Hagel. The thing is, these people generally portray themselves as the most pure libertarian and antiwar people (Raimondo's website is called antiwar.com) and are using this as if it's a litmus test for determining Rand Paul's libertarian/noninterventionist foreign policy cred. Proprietist is simply explaining why that's absurd. It has nothing to do with whether you, liberals, neocons, or whatever other group, thinks Hagel would be a good secretary of defense
"I'd rather a politician follow every whim of public opinion than a bullshit ideology."
The motto of Tony, ladies and gentlemen. Do you give Republicans the same flexibility when they start railing against illegal immigrants, brown people named Ahmed or gays when that is a popular thing to do? War, slavery, segregation, nothing is out of bounds when it is popular, right Tony?
"Would you like him better if he never changed his mind?"
There was more than enough evidence that he never should have supported it in the first place. If he's so supposedly restrained on war, how come he never showed any constraint when it came to voting on policy.
Those aren't the only two options. One is just better than the other. I certainly don't prefer spineless politicians fingering the political wind. But they are less dangerous that overconfidently consistent politicians who believe in bullshit.
I don't have any real desire to defend Hagel. Better him than the next Donald Rumsfeld, though.
1. Politicians who consistently follow MY principles.
2. Politicians who are spineless and will follow my policy only when it is politically popular.
3. Politicians who consistently oppose my principles.
Congratulations Tony. You and every other person alive.
Don't disagree with that, but that's not a very high bar to cross.
Shouldn't be, but the next one will inevitably be worse, because Republicans are even crazier and stupider.
Considering you gave Hagel credit for softening his stance on Iraq when that became politically unpopular, I'm surprised you aren't giving Republicans similar credit for criticizing the unprovoked war in Libya for political gain.
Oh wait, I'm not surprised because you think Obama's Libya engagement was pretty sweet because Bush Iraq Bad.
He showed that toppling a dictator didn't need the cost of thousands of American lives. That's better on it's face. Whether it was a good policy, meh. All I'm arguing is that better is good.
I think that you are distorting Raimondo's take. You will note that he does not think that Hagel is a Ron Paul.
The thrust of Raimondo's piece is that AIPAC and its senatorial stooges, i.e., Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Ted Cruz, are going to LOSE. That, in and of itself, is a good thing. No, it is a fantastic thing.
Anytime neoconservatism gets a bloody nose, is a time to rejoice.
So regardless of the fact that Hagel voted for every war he got a vote on, principled anti-war advocates are supposed to forget all that because his rhetoric gives AIPAC a bloody nose?
Please.
Who here is more consistently anarcho-free enterprise-individualist than me?
Hagel is a piece of shit. Period. That does not mean that the failure to derail his nomination is something about which to rejoice.
Raimondo is criticizing Rand for trying to derail Hagel's nomination. If Rand is successful, it would be cause for principled anti-war advocates to rejoice. Raimondo is a total fucking idiot for being one of Reason's biggest critics as they are purportedly unprincipled on foreign policy (a charge I find unsubstantiated), while jumping on the pro-Hagel boat because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the enemy of my new friend is my enemy."
Anytime neoconservatism gets a bloody nose, is a time to rejoice.
So you love Obama then?
Also the Drones, Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan are still present. Bloody Nose!
So, upon what basis do you think that I love the affirmative action racist with the fugly wife?
His election and re-election were a defeat for the neocons?
Libertarianism is not about giving neoconservatism a bloody nose. That's reactionary bilge.
I didn't distort Raimondo's take. He opposes efforts to block Hagel for exactly the reasons you stated. The reason the people you mentioned oppose Hagel is because of Hagel's statements about the Israeli lobby and the perception that he is anti-Israel
So he was maliciously ignorant when it actually mattered, then turned against the war when it was politically useful to do so. This opposition consisted of a good deal of talk and no actual results.
A person would have to be pretty damned stupid to think of Hagel as a good -- or even non-terrible -- libertarian choice for Secretary of Defense.
Justin Raimondo does not support Chuck Hagel's worldview (witness his assertion that Hagel is no Ron Paul); rather, he supports the defeat of the efforts to derail the nomination of Hagel by the most vocal faction of the war party.
Anytime AIPAC does not get its way, that is a time to rejoice.
Anytime one gets to see Lindsey Graham cry and whine in defeat, that is a time to rejoice.
Anytime smear efforts undetaken by the likes of Senator Cruz are crushed, that is a time to rejoice.
Anytime smear efforts undertaken by dual citizen jews are rejected, that is a time to rejoice.
Again "the enemy of my enemy is my friend, and the enemy of my new friend is my enemy" is rationally retarded for anyone claiming piety and superior principles. That's probably also how he justifies hating Welch and Reason.
This is what is known as an ad hominem attack. "These people support this, therefore this is automatically good/bad!" It's reasoning like this that leads to Raimondo and those like him all too often making excuses for and defending dictators and terrorist groups. The fact that Lindsey Graham doesn't like Hagel doesn't mean we should support him. Paul has not based his opposition to Hagel on his "anti-Israeli" views and it's unfair to criticize him because won't support an establishment hack (and the fact that the said a couple things about Israeli influence in the US government does not change that fact)
And your true colors come out at the end, as they always do with the paleos.
JOOOOOOOOOS
I love the paranoid rant about "dual citizen Jews" opposing Hagel. Especially considering that all twelve Jewish Senators voted to confirm the dumb son of a bitch.
Remember, Hagel wanted to send US ground troops into Serbia over Kosovo. Just because he's anti-Israel doesn't make him anti-war.
Has he recanted that position?
"Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com..."
And Brian comes out to nail another plank onto Reason's shark-jumping ramp. Even if I were an anti-interventionist, I wouldn't be interested in a word Raimondo says. He belongs in a discussion of foreign policy about as much as Andrea Dworkin belongs in a discussion of womens' rights, and for the same reason: they're* paranoid bile-spewers who spend their time imputing evil motives to their enemies (the Patriarchy in her case, the neocons and Israel in his) rather than producing any ideas.
(* - was, in Dworkin's case, as she died a while ago, IIRC).
Rand Paul is smart! Go Rand, go!