Why is Ex-Marine Brandon J. Raub Being Held in a Psych Ward and What Does It Say About Today's America?

Brandon J. Raub is a 26-year-old former Marine who was arrested and ordered to stay in a psychiatric ward for a month. The precipitating factor for his commitment appears to be writings on a Facebook page, but his lawyers say no charges have yet been filed against him.

As RT explains it:

A video of his detention emerged online, triggering outrage online, including among American citizens and human rights activists.

"For government officials to not only arrest Brandon Raub for doing nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights [to freedom of speech], but to actually force him to undergo psychological evaluations and detain him against his will goes against every constitutional principle this country was founded upon," said John Whitehead, executive director of the Rutherford Institute, a civil liberties group that has come to the Raub's defense.

The statement on the veteran's situation posted on the Rutherford Institute website points out that Brandon Raub is no different from the majority of Americans "who use their private Facebook pages to post a variety of content, ranging from song lyrics and political hyperbole to trash-talking their neighbors, friends and government leaders."

Here's the video of the arrest, which, according to the site Pixiq, was made by FBI, Secret Service, and Chesterfield County (Virginia) police:

One of Raub's two Facebook pages is filled with 9/11 conspiracy posts and violent imagery. Some of that imagery of consists of perceived threats against Raub ("The Revolution will come for me. Men will be at my door soon to pick me up to lead it. ;)") and some made by him ("Sharpen up my axe; I'm here to sever heads.").

Either way, the Rutherford Institute - best known for representing Paula Jones in her sexual harassment charges case against Bill Clinton - focuses on the lack of charges against Raub. As Jacob Sullum noted in the wake of the shooting of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, involuntary commitment still exists, though it requires a court order to keep someone locked up against his will for more than 72 hours (at his former job, at the Daily Caller, Mike Riggs detailed some cases of involuntary commitment that are worth reading).

Based on a quick look at his Facebook page, Raub has more than a few screws loose. But that should hardly be the basis for getting rounded up and chucked into prison or the booby hatch. In the wake of the 9/11 attacks and random mass shootings, it seems easier than ever to just that, which isn't right.

Here's more from the Rutherford Institute.

Comments

[Paul.]

Based on a quick look at his Facebook page, Raub has more than a few screws loose. But that should hardly be the basis for getting rounded up and chucked into prison or the booby hatch. In the wake of the 9/11 attacks and random mass shootings, it seems easier than ever to just that, which isn't right.

If he made any statements to a CDMHP which detailed clear threats to himself or others, and he showed other traits of psychosis, such as not being oriented to time and place, etc., then he could easily be thrown in the puzzle factory (for 72 hours) after which he'll get a court hearing etc.

This is definitely interesting, but given his loose-ish screws, I'm guessing something happened behind the scenes that just hasn't made it into the papers yet.

Otherwise, if he were just making threats to others, then he would be in the county jail and this blogpost would look entirely different.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

i love statement like this, too

"it seems easier than ever to just that, which isn't right"

the inevitable, "it seems" iow an assertion w/o evidence, most of which is probably easily available

for example, HAVE involuntary commitments gone up per capita since 9/11

that would be a stat to start with

but nope, the typical lack of info reason.com posting, which is all about how things SEEM iow an excuse to not actually research or understand the reality, but just how it seems based on isolated media reports.

classic shoddy journalism and emotionalism as journalism

[Paul.]

classic shoddy journalism and emotionalism as journalism

I'm not sure if I'd go as far as impugning Nick's journlism. It's a blogpost, asking important questions (there's a libertarian snarky joke in there somewhere).

I don't have any problems with people asking questions as to why someone making some zany politicial comments is getting arrested and thrown into the puzzle factory.

It's exactly the kind of scenario you want to avoid in a free society.

But, I'm smelling some extenuating circumstances that go beyond what's sitting on the surface of the current reports.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

it encourages the fellow travelers to assume their prejudiced beliefs are in fact true

there are two things reasonoids believe

1) LEO's are doing tons of fucked up shit all the time, are rarely held accountable, and there is a massive double standard where they get away with all kind of fucked up shit that "citizens" don't

2) it's getting WORSE

#2 is the one i find CONSTANTLY spouted here (sans evidence). like people will claim "the paramilitariziation of police is resulting in way more of these shootings or whatnot"

and of course ZERO evidence to support that. it just SEEMS that way, since they are reading reason articles about police shootings, so they must be increasing

the stats are out there. reasonoids may hate "statist" heather mcdonald, but her cop articles are supported with STATS

i think gillespie is a great journalist, but that 'seems' crap throw away line is shit journalism

whether or not it SEEMS that way, it would be responsible to actually research and find out if there is at least evidence to support that it MAY or MAY NOT be the case

i personally have no idea

if, for example, invols have been going up DISproportionately to suicide rate , THAT would be at least evidence that lesser standards are being used to invol people

in my experience, i have seen ZERO evidence that invol criteria are being loosened

[Night Elf Mohawk]

I'm not sure if I'd go as far as impugning Nick's journlism. It's a blogpost, asking important questions (there's a libertarian snarky joke in there somewhere).

"I'm just asking questions" is one of the sleaziest way of putting something forth an argument without having to make the argument, defend the argument, or deal with the argument's being wrong.

It's crap when politicians do it and it's crap when others do it.

[Almanian's Evil Twin]

If even one life is saved....for the children. Amen.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

as somebody who personally involuntarily commits at least a few score people a year...

i'd like to actually SEE the posts on the facebook page(s) vs. a third hand media report that doesn't fill in the details.

that being said, i find it hard to believe, BASED on what the claims were of what waS on his facebook page, that there was a case to believe him an imminent danger to self or others, which is the standard by which we invol people

believing crazy ass shit does not make one an imminent danger.

not sure about the military, but here in civilian land, given an emergency commitment, they either get let go (i'd estimate 90%+ w/in 8 hrs of being invold and after talking to an mhp at the hospital) or get the right to a hearing before a judge w/in 72 hrs

[Paul.]

as somebody who personally involuntarily commits at least a few score people a year...

Not to pick nits, Dunphy, but to pick nits, YOU don't involuntarily commit anyone in the state of Washington. Only a CDMHP involuntarily commits someone. You may bring someone in that you think needs to be committed, but someone else makes that decision.

i find it hard to believe, BASED on what the claims were of what waS on his facebook page, that there was a case to believe him an imminent danger to self or others, which is the standard by which we invol people

I agree that based on facebook postings, that he could be committed. The trail that needs to be followed is:

1. Why did he get arrested in the first place?
2. After the arrest, he must have said something (assuming the system is working) that changed his destination from the county jail, to the puzzle factory.

Because if I threaten someone, they don't commit me, they put me in jail. Something has to happen in the back of the squad car or during booking that makes someone say, "Hang on, this guy may not be in complete control of his faculties..."

[Dunphy (the real one)]

"Not to pick nits, Dunphy, but to pick nits, YOU don't involuntarily commit anyone in the state of Washington. Only a CDMHP involuntarily commits someone. You may bring someone in that you think needs to be committed, but someone else makes that decision."

we take them into custody, call an ambulance for transport and write an affidavit for the mhp at the hospital

we CALL it an involuntary commitment. i'm not going to quibble about semantics, and you may in fact BE correct. i am just using the terminology that the MHP's have told US is the proper terminology.

and i say that as somebody who attended graduate school for counseling psychology, i might add

but again, you may be right

lemme say, i take away somebody's liberty and place them, against their will if necessary into an ambulance for mandatory transport and counseling at a hospital staffed with an MHP

[Dunphy (the real one)]

call it a ham sandwich if you want to. im just trying to describe a procedure i do frequently. and that's what we call it.

"I agree that based on facebook postings, that he could be committed. The trail that needs to be followed is:"

you are not AGREEing with me, when i said i find it doubtful BASED on what i was told in the article about the facebook postings that they would justify an invol

but the devil is in the details, and i havent seen the page

you are also centering on the "arrest"

arrest is a many layered term

in one sense, every invol is an ARREST. it's not a CRIMINAL arrest, but it's an involuntary taking away of a person's liberty and transport

that's an ARREST, just not a custodial criminal arrest

i don't know if by "arrest" they mean he was initially arrested on CRIMINAL; charges or if they simply mean the cops took his liberty away and called for a trans[port for an invol

i would suggest neither of us knows, so it's silly to see the word and assume theyu mean CRIMINAL arrest

[Paul.]

you are not AGREEing with me, when i said i find it doubtful BASED on what i was told in the article about the facebook postings that they would justify an invol

That was a mistype that I hoped you'd look past. I'm agreeing with you, it's DOUBTFUL (to get on the all caps theme) that a few facebook postings would constitute an involuntary.

arrest is a many layered term

in one sense, every invol is an ARREST. it's not a CRIMINAL arrest, but it's an involuntary taking away of a person's liberty and transport

I'm focussing on the arrest because, based on the read of Nick's posting, that's what it looks like.

But it doesn't change my point. Even if it STARTED (wee! All caps) as an involuntary, what kicked that off? We don't go arround arresting/committing people because of something zany on a facebook page. If that were the case, Krugman would have been committed years ago.

My point still stands. The post, while extremely thin on detail brings up an interesting question: How does one get arrested for postings on a facebook page?

My feeling is that he made clear threats to harm someone. Then the arrest was made as one would normally do if someone makes direct physical threats, and at some point it became a psych case.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

there are all sorts of ways to get arrested for facebook posts. "true threats" under the federal standard would certainly be POSSIBLE on a facebook page (assuming threat is communicated)

that aside, i'm just not making that assumption that a CRIMINAL arrest was made, since it's certainly fair to describe a handcuffing pursuant to an INVOL as an "arrest"

here's another thing. under FCR reporting guidelines (federal ) we count any criminal CITaTION as an arrest

if i say i arrested johnny dirtbag, you might assume i placed him in cuffs. but if i recommend charges THAT's an arrest.

but it's not custodial

so it pays to know what they mean by arrest.

i don't know, so im not assumin'

[Paul.]

lemme say, i take away somebody's liberty and place them, against their will if necessary into an ambulance for mandatory transport and counseling at a hospital staffed with an MHP

Thank you.

Because I can tell you, my (now ex) wife is an MHP and she's had to return a few 'involuntaries' back to the arresting officer. Not very often, but once in a while.

Just because the officer thought he was crazy, didn't mean he was.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

sure. cops are imperfect

and two intelligent well trained people can disagree, too. judges do it all the time. see: 5-4 decisions

i know that cops are , with good reason, WAY more concerned with not invol'ing somebody who later offs themselves and getting the shit sued out of them, than invol'ing somebody when it's "iff'y".

again, cops, like the medical profession (see CYA medical testing) often do what they think is least likely to result in civil liability, aND that is not necessarily the same thing as what is BEST (conan)

taht being said, we deal with a metric assload of crazy as fuck people and we aren't invol'ing them

if they aren't acting suicidal or clearly a danger to others, we don't invol them. you can't walk 10 ft in downtown seattle by the park near the courthous ew/o seeing somebody who is batshit insane.

[Chris Mallory]

It was my understanding that he wasn't arrested. The local cops were on scene to "assist the Feds and to transport him to the mental health facility".

[Dunphy (the real one)]

hmm

again, i think it's a mistake to see a word casually used in a media report and assume it means a CRIMINAL arrest

this is one of hte reasons why i hate coming to conclusions w/o seeing source documents. because the media is sloppy as fuck with shit like this (all media, to include reason) and people LATCH on to one word like this and then make their decision based on that assumed definition.

[Chloe]

You got your mph's to see a pt in less than 8 hours, damn. I would go entire shifts and never see them step foot into the ED.

[Paul.]

This is relatively accurate. Dunphy doesn't drop them off to see an MHP, he actually drops them off to the ED, and if they're equipped with a clinically trained social worker, the social worker does the initial workup, then if he/she suspects they've got a solid involuntary on their hands, they call the MHPs who arrive, some time in the night.

If things are going well, they may show within a couple of hours... if not... might be a while.

But once the MHP shows up, they do their workup, and then the decision is made.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

yea. and like i said, i went to grad school for counseling psychology... and i used to date a girl who was an MHP at harborview, which is the major hospital in seattle/WA and gets a metric assload of invols.

at some of the out of the way hospitals, they have to call in a MHP

at harborview and some others, they are on staff and they "churn em and burn em"

interview, devise a "safety plan". talk to a doctor to see if a prescription is warranted, then BOOT EM OUT THE DOOR

[Paul.]

yea. and like i said, i went to grad school for counseling psychology... and i used to date a girl who was an MHP at harborview,

Did you fuck my wife? Did you fuck my wife?

[Auric Demonocles]

i went to grad school for counseling psychology.

Holy shit, I think I found MNG.

(I tried so hard, but I couldn't resist.)

[Dunphy (the real one)]

it's kewl.

i'm not trying to sound all cool and shit, it's just that we when we talk psych stuff, i think most people assume i am only talking as a cop. granted, i have learned WAY more from police work in the field than i ever learned in grad school, but i am speaking as somebody who ALSO has an academic background in this subject

i could still be wrong as fuck, though

[JW]

Paul, you should know better than to try and dance with Buckaroo Banzai.

[Episiarch]

Paul is just trying out for the role of Emilio Lizardo.

[Paul.]

Paul is just trying out for the role of Emilio Lizardo.

Already got the call back.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

paul is actually engaging in fair, reasonable discussion.

a refreshing change from some others here.

when you get past the core l00ns, there are actually some very cool people here, with a lot of interesting shit to say, and many who i disagree with, still earn mass respect from me.

most of us, have a core set of beliefs that tie us together as libertarians and seperate us from the statist hordes. we concentrate on the differences (omg you are not 100% for open borders you are clearly a statist loon!!!!! derp derp derp), but that's simply silly

[Chloe]

The hospital system I worked for only had MHP's at the trauma 1. So, if you were working at any of the other hospitals in the area it was a waiting game.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

yea. harborview is a level 1 trauma center.

you go to some of the smaller hospitals, and from what i have heard (from former invol'ees), it can range from MHP happens to be in the hospital to as long as a 8 hr wait before they get to see one (who probably had to be called in)

also, depending on how violent the invol'ee is, will also determine where they are taken.

like take the guy who threw a butcher knife at my partner and me and who tried to light his house on fire. he was taken to harborview, because they have hospital security, shackles, the whole nine yards

at a lot of smaller hospitals, the involee is simply left on a gurney, sometimes in the hall. if they get up and try to walk out, they will probably be successful

[Rasilio]

Wait, you're someone who gets paid to do investigations?

Literally 30 seconds of searching brings me to his facebook page...

https://www.facebook.com/brandon.raub?sk=wall

Now whether it was JUST the facebook posts that caused the lockup or if something else was involved I can't say but there is absolutely nothing there to justify locking him up.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

wonderful, but among other things, what is on his facebook page NOW is not necesarily what was on it back when he was invol'd nor do i necessarily have access to private areas of his page that might need password access.

regardless, nice find. i'm not INVESTIGATING this case. obviously if i was , i would have done all sorts of research

i would suggest that like most cases, the decision was based on "the totality of the circumstances". almost certainly, iow, there were SOME other factor(s) besides the facebook page

regardless, nice find. considering i spent 15 minutes wanking in this thread, i could have spent a couple of minutes researching

i'm a humbled panda

[Auric Demonocles]

Isn't "former" Marine incorrect terminology?

[Paul.]

No longer active duty. But once a Marine...

[Sy]

Most of us don't particularly give a shit once we get out.

[nipplemancer]

This.
I was in the Marines once. I'll throw you a semper fi if you do me, but I'm not walking around in Ooh-rah gear all the time nor sporting a high y tight like some assholes. Though I do flinch when I see some kid just out of recruit training on libo in the improper uniform.

[Drake]

Yes! I do enjoy seeing a properly Marine and have to resist going all DI with a knife hand when they look like a bag of shit.

Going to the National Guard after the Marines, I had to learn to relax a little. On the other hand, some freshly trained slobs would get to our unit thinking they were going to cruise - only to find out we were riddled with former Marines, Paratroopers, and assorted other hard people with low tolerance levels.

[Sy]

Yeah. nothing drives me nuts more than that. 9 times out of 10, I find out they were kicked out after bootcamp or something.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The Precogs must have really seen something bad in this Marine's future.

[Sy]

Saying the government is at war against its citizens subjects is an act of war itself, dontchaknow

[Mr Whipple]

I was wondering when you guys would get around to this.

Here's an interview with Adam Kokesh from th psych ward

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ature=plcp

[Mr Whipple]

Also from George Washington's Blog:

Are People Being Thrown In Psychiatric Wards For Their Political Views?

http://www.zerohedge.com/contr.....ical-views

[Paul.]

Listening to the interview now, and the dude sounds completely sane to me.

I have to nick him on one point of logic: He's concerned that the government can see his facebook page.

How many fucking times...

If you put shit on facebook, other people can read it.

If I post a message warning that I'm going to kill Barack Obama all over my Wall, I'm probably going to get a knock on the door from the Secret Service.

I still haven't looked at his facebook page, but I'm not sure if I need to at this point.

I'm becoming less comfortable with why they put him in involuntary care.

And I haven't read all the linked details... why did the FBI get involved here? Involuntary commitments are purely state affairs.

Browsing his facebook page, it looks like quite a bit of run-of-the mill conspiracy theorizing. It's chemtrails all the way down.

Still don't see the involuntary commitment angle here.

Either Virginia has much more lax rules on involuntary, or he said some batshit stuff to the judge during his hearing.

[Victoria Alexander]

Nick, you might have done a little bit more research than a "quick look" before writing this up. The line, "I'm going to sharpen my axe...sever some heads" is from a song by Swollen Members. See video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QQydgVfRU We would all probably have more to fear if Michelle Bachman quoted the Battle Hymn of the Republic on her FaceBook page. Lots of angry young people quote angry lyrics. This doesn't mean he has a screw loose.

And not believing the official version of 9/11 is popular because the gov't didn't actually investigate the cause of the collapse of the towers and they've even admitted it in writing. Unfortunately, by the time these documents came out, journalists had already lost interest in the subject.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/326622

[Brandybuck]

He said he was going to start the revolution and heads would be severed, while posing with a rifle. What sort of fucked up world do you troofers live in if you think that's normal behavior? And it wasn't just the that, his personality and behavior had recently changed. He fit the profile of someone about to flip out and go ninja.

Every time there's a mass shooting by a crazy, everyone wrings their hands and wonders why no one ever bothered getting the crazy help before hell broke loose. Well this time the FBI did get him help before he started his one man revolution of severing heads! As much as I hate to give the FBI any credit, I think they just might have stopped the next mass shooting.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

this falls under the "damned if we do, damned if we don't" thing that we in law enforcement deal with

libs are the worst at this 20/20 hindsight bullshit

look at loughner. we CLEARLY "should have done something" bla bla

and as for the garden variety invol, it is a trip in an ambulance to the hospital, a few hours in the hospital, etc.

it's not like getting sent to rikers.

and in many cases, i am confident lives are saved, all the cynicism aside.

but you are totally correct. it's all about results (not process) oriented analysis.

law enforcement is, and should be proactive. not mind readers, but it's not our job to wait until the trigger is pulled, if we have REASONABLE beliefs that inchoate shit is going on, we act.

sometimes, we may be wrong. what is important is we act in good faith, reasonably and carefully

not PERFECTLY, but reasonably.

[Brandybuck]

I don't mean to imply that we must all be "normal". Bad choice of words. But if someone is displaying the warning signs of going postal, you don't wait until he dyes his hair and dons a gas mask before you intervene.

Please note that if this were one of your paranoid conspiracy insider tactics to take out an embarrassing marine who was daring to speak troof to power, they would have just shot him and his dog and blamed it on the wrong address. Instead they had him temporarily committed for observation. Not the overreaction he was trying to provoke.

[Paul.]

Scientists investigated the cause of the collapse and they discovered that when you apply a couple thousand degrees of jet fuel fire to the steel superstructure for an extended period, it collapses.

It's a field called "metallurgy"

[Dunphy (the real one)]

fwiw, a fair # of cases start from facebook

there have been a BUNCH of cases where people post PICTURES of themselves with stolen property, somebody notices and it ends up in an arrest and conviction

in others, i have gone to more than one case where a RP reported somebody was suicidal based on either facebook messaging they had with the person or some sort of goodbye cruel world facebook post that sounded like they were clearly going to off themselves

and like everything else, sometimes it's bullshit and sometimes it's bona fide.

and sometimes, it's hard to tell

like everything else, we look at TOTALITY of the circ's

what are the claims?
can they be substantiated?
what is the basis of knowledge?
what is the reliability of the informer?
what the subject's past history (suicide attempts, etc)
are they taking meds?
what does the subject say (i'd say in about 90% of my invols they readily admit , sometimes after some prodding (verbal that is) that yes they are wanting to hurt themselves and want help)

etc.

the reality is that if somebody wants to commit suicide and to get away with it, they can- easily

but telling your friend you are going to do it, or making some dramatic facebook posts is a classic "cry for help"

[Pound. Head. On. Desk.]

Holy cow, how have I missed all this?! This guy lives maybe 20 minutes from me. He was taken in for "evaluation" under Virginia's "emergency custody" code, which requires a magistrate's order, but supposedly there wasn't one issued?

[Anacreon]

Bringing it up once again, I am a doc in an ED very similar to Harborview (in fact I have lectured there and know several of the academic emergency docs there). We are in CA, but this fact, as discussed above, is absolutely true from state to state: writings on Facebook, or something you texted to someone, may be enough to get you involuntarily brought to an emergency department, but you can only be kept on that basis for a number of hours (72 being a common number).

Some states get you in front of a judge before any treatment. In CA, after 72 hours, one has legal representation and goes in front of a hearing officer to be confined further; if they lose that hearing, they can apply for habeas corpus and go in front of a Superior Court judge. The burden of proof is on the hospital to prove why an individual needs further care -- and an individual can testify on their own behalf. Believe me, if you show yourself to be in any way in good control, able to care for yourself, and not dangerous to yourself or others, the judge will let you go in a New York minute.

Long story short, no one is in a psychiatric hospital for 30 days solely because of something they wrote on Facebook. There is far, far more to the story, and most of the reasons he is still there will have to do with signs and symptoms he is showing in the hospital, not what happened prior to admission.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

agree 100%

thanks for an informed post. SO refreshing

[DesigNate]

Not that I care, but if you feel SOO put upon, why do you still post here? Why not just lurk and laugh at the stupid "bigoratti" or whatever it is you call them?

[Dunphy (the real one)]

i love posting here and reading the stuff here

but i do laff at the stupidity and i MOSTLY lurk when i see it.

many of the bigots are simply 100% set in their beliefs.they don't enter discussions to learn,to exchange and god forbid to reconsider their positions

i recognize that.it may be a waste of time in many cases, but truth has a dignity all its own, regardless of whether the other side wants to hear it

i am very heartened that there are some very cool posters here who are interested in robust debate, not merely name calling and prejudice laced derp derp.

i've learned a lot, and man do i miss balko.his shit was awesome (yes, am aware of his new site)

understanding the mind of the bigot is very helpful to me.

i read the nation and mother jones because i want to understand the different vision of the far leftie. i love reading opposing viewpoints. i started reading Ms. magazine at 12.

you can learn a lot and in many cases i think the nation has AWESOME reporting even though i strongly disagree with them.

the thing is i agree with the bigorati on TONS of stuff, it's just many of them want to argue for the sake of arguing. and the fact that i incite people to outright wish for my death, or use posting names like "die in a fire dunphy" is proof positive of the level of delusion and hate

as soon as you let hate/bigotry take over, your ability to rationally consider evidence and opposing viewpoints is simply gone

but most people here aren't like that, thankfully

[HazelMeade]

I'm guessing they brought him in for a psych evaluation, and he never left, possibly because ask Paul suggested, something else happened behind the scenes that hasn't made the papers yet.

Agreeing with Paul and Anacreon on this.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

i think that's a reasonable possibility

again, ime it does not take that much to invol somebody (iow get them taken in for evaluation and a meet with an MHP at the hospital)

but for them to actually go the full 72 hrs, get a hearing and get committed at the hearing

ThAT is a relative rarity (as opposed to the short term stays) and is stronlgy suggestive of "a lot more to this story horatio"

[Paul.]

Even though I'm scratching my head on the whole thing, I'm having to assume some crazy assed shit was uttered to mental health workers and/or the judge that we're not hearing and... news flash, we won't hear because that shit gets sealed to protect the patient.

Irony? You decide.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

and on the flip side there are some VERY smart ones who know EXACTLY what to say to get released if and when they are taken to the hospital. they play the MHP like a fiddle. mentally ill does not mean stupid. some of these guys are really fucking smart. and very manipulative. iirc, several psychiatric conditions are correlated with well above average IQ's.

[Jim Kress]

Remember, the Communists in the USSR, China and elsewhere would confine people who disagreed with them to mental institutions - just because they were taken to be "insane" for objecting to those "worker's paradises".

[Anacreon]

And remember, in the USA, psychiatric patients have very substantial and well-protected rights -- even, perhaps, to many family members and victims, rights that may at times be too substantial. Psychiatric institutions in the USA are different universes from the gulags of the old Soviet Union and whatever the ChiComs might be getting away with.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

yes. i have had one frequent flyer call. the kid is diagnosed schizophrenic and gets REALLY delusional.

he does some really scary stuff. sometimes we have enough to invol, sometimes we don't but the family is constantly frustrated when we can't act. they ask "well what would he NEED to do to justify an invol" and that makes me really hesitant because i get concerned that if i tell them "well if he did X" etc. that it kind of fills in the blanks so next time they call they will actually make X up just to get him taken down

i had one today, where there was a decent suspicion of some stuff going on that would justify an invol, but it just wasn't THERE. the fiance was frustrated but i'm not going to violate somebody's rights.

the hardest ones are where the actions are incremental. iow, they are obviously purposefully killing themselves but there is no IMMINENT threat. we try to get adult protective services or whatever involved when we can, but it's a difficult situation

[Chloe]

vyalotekushchaya shizofreniya, or sluggishly progressing schizophrenia was what they diagnosed political dissidents as having in the old USSR. With a criteria that was so vague it applied to pretty much anybody.

[Anacreon]

Here's a recent story about a young man in the Bay Area released by the courts despite doctors at a psychiatric hospital wanting to extend his hold beyond the 72 hours (and though his parents begged the judge to keep him in the hospital). He ended up killing someone. This is obviously an extreme case, but shows the other side of the story you don't often hear about, and how difficult it can be to keep psychiatric patients hospitalized in the USA. No evidence of Uncle Joe Stalin here.