Seth Adams

Seth Adams Investigation Findings Imminent; Sheriff Says They "Verify Exactly" What He's Thought Since the Beginning Anyway


shot by cop
family photo

It's been two months since 24 year old Seth Adams was allegedly shot and allowed to die by a Palm Beach County deputy sheriff parked in the lot of Adams' family business.  Sheriff Rick Bradshaw, while saying, according to the Palm Beach Post, that he felt "terrible for the family" and wished "it would had never happened," nevertheless is as sure Sergeant Michael Custer was right as he was two months ago, saying that information he is to release at a news conference as early as this week will "verify exactly what I thought from the beginning."

Not much has changed since the initial accounts, as little new information has come out, other than that the sheriff asked the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to investigate. The family's attorney alleges police impeded the work of emergency responders and caused a delay in Adams' arrival at a nearby hospital. Police also seized surveillance footage from the family business to see whether a crime (assault of a law enforcement officer) had been committed by Adams prior to his being shot. Police say the deputy who shot Adams thought he was reaching for a gun when he returned to his vehicle.

Here's some of what Bradshaw was reported saying immediately after the shooting:

"There's only two witnesses here: the suspect and the deputy. And the suspect was not able to be interviewed. Why he decided to assault the deputy? [Adams is accused of trying to choke Custer.] We may never know that."

The family, obviously, has many questions, and the Post summarizes them:

— Why had Custer parked in their business parking lot when signs there tell drivers not to do so?

— Why had Custer allowed Seth to open the gate dividing the parking lot from the business, allowing him to walk hundreds of yards to where he collapsed?

— Why was Seth lying alone while officers had blocked Raina and David from helping him?

— Why had no one helped Seth while they waited for EMS to arrive?

Reason on police, prior Seth Adams coverage

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  1. "verify exactly what I thought from the beginning."

    What would that be? Oh yeah, that's right. "Fuck you, that's why"

  2. ? Why was Seth lying alone while officers had blocked Raina and David from helping him?

    ? Why had no one helped Seth while they waited for EMS to arrive?

    Those are easy. Dead men do not testify.

    1. Probably just too busy cleaning his blood off the uniform to protect the dry-cleaning bills, I'm basically picturing the real-life version of "this stick's on fire!" from the South Park movie

    2. They also don't wear plaid.

  3. Police also seized surveillance footage from the family business to see whether a crime (assault of a law enforcement officer) had been committed by Adams prior to his being shot.

    Or perhaps to make sure no one else could see the tape of the shooting?

    1. The stated purpose of seizing the video betrays their intent.

    2. Why isn't the seizure of the video a bigger deal? Folks have been convicted of "obstruction of justice" for doing less. Doesn't that surveillance tape belong to the owners of the business? Don't the police need permission from the owners or a subpoena to get their hands on it?

  4. I can't wait for Tulpa to go FULL RETARD and excuse this too. Tulpa: please fuck off and die forthwith. Take dunphy with you. You two deserve each other.

    1. You are just a cop hating bastard who thinks just because cops are paid and trained to deal with deadly situations they should be help to a higher standard than someone who isn't.

      1. Nice strawman of Tulpa and Dunphy's views John.

        I wish civilians like you would not opine on LEO matters. 😉

        1. The claims about their being a double standard kill me. Sure there is a double standard. They are cops. Last I looked we held doctors to a horrible double standard. We expected them to know more than the lay person about doing surgery. Go figure.

          1. To be fair, there are two diametrically opposed points being argued:

            I) Police are held to a lower standard.

            II) Police are held to a higher standard.

            Most of us argue that condition I is universal. Dunphy et al argue that condition II is nearly universal, with a few condition I incidents getting outsize publicity.

            The truth is more nuanced. Some police forces do meet condition II. But, based on the culture shown on most fora catering to cops online, condition I is prevalent.

            Dunphy can point to incidents of condition II as an argument that Condition I is not a systematic problem (and let's face it, if 99 out of 100 police departments where operating under II, we'd still have thousands of I incidents to fret over, but it wouldn't be systemic).

            However, if that were the case, I think we'd see police professional organizations far more willing to publicly call out and shame the Condition I guys. Instead, the much of the noise being made by cops implies that they live in Condition I while paying lip service to II.

            1. you're not going to see cops call out the thugs in their ranks. Ever since 9/11, anyone who falls under the first responder umbrella is treated as a hero, instead of someone who chose to do what can sometimes be a dangerous job.

              Respect works both ways. But these folks have been elevated to near bullet proof status and have come to believe - with good reason evidently - that they are untouchable.

            2. Usually when guns go off and people get hurt, Condition I is near universal.

              1. Usually when someone is shot and "allowed to die" it's called murder.

        2. civilians


          1. In context, I'm giving tarran the benefit of the doubt on that one.

          2. Tell me about it... and I am a civilian now too!

            1. Welcome to the suck

    2. Tulpa's right on this one guys. No mistakes were made. They'll probably be an inquiry anyway. Sigh.

      1. Amazing that you can respond to me even without knowing what my position is.

    3. I don't think Tulpa is a statist apologist so much as a knee-jerk contrarian. If everyone thought that the cops were right, Tulpa would argue that they were murderous assholes. I'm pretty sure he's one of those people who quickly adopt a position and just as quickly decides it is unassailable truth.

      1. I'm actually extremely consistent in my views, firend.

        1. I'm not your firend, bdduy.

  5. Kill them all and let God sort them out

    No criminal charges will be filed in a friendly-fire shootout that left an ATF agent dead after he tried to intervene in a New Year's Eve pharmacy shooting, a prosecutor announced Monday.

    Nassau County District Attorney Kathleen Rice issued an 11-page report noting that two bystanders who ran to the pharmacy ? an off-duty New York City police officer and a retired Nassau police lieutenant ? were justified when they used deadly force.

    The two men were in a deli in Seaford, about 25 miles east of New York City, when someone said a robbery was in progress up the street, authorities said.

    When they arrived at the pharmacy, they saw Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Agent John Capano and the robbery suspect wrestling for a gun that later turned out to be Capano's.

    The retired lieutenant, Christopher Geraghty, opened fire, killing Capano, after a bullet from Capano's weapon whizzed past his head. NYPD officer Joseph Arbia then killed the robbery suspect, James McGoey.

    cops are even a danger to other cops.

    1. Jesus, what a clusterfuck.

      1. No shit. How about not just shooting people as the first and most preferred option?

        1. What's the point in having a job where you get to kill people without consequence and not shoot people at every available opportunity?

        2. The only lives cops feel obligated to protect are their own.

          1. "To serve and protect their own."

        3. Cops shouldnt carry.

          Maybe a stick/club/bludgeon but that is about it.

          It should require some sort of extra special warrant for cops to break out the firearms.

          1. That's silly and wouldn't solve much. Cops in Britain are jerks and they don't have guns. America allowed cops to carry in the past and cops were okay then. This is a soluble problem.

            1. Obviously if you cannot play well with others, you should have your toys taken away.

            2. Whats the solution?

              I dont see it. DAs are prosecuted aggressively will help, but I dont believe we will ever see that.

    2. I'm imagining Star Trek fight scene music..

      Who's who?!?

      I'm me!

      No, I'M me!

    3. This is the same method my neighbor used.

      He would hide and wait until the battle was over and all of us kids were gathered together and come in and blast away. Somehow that meant he won even though his team were standing right next to us.

      But of course he was only using a toy gun.

    4. If only this would happen more often.

      1. The one decent cop who was trying to do some good was the one who was shot. The two stupid apes who showed up and started shooting go merely on their way.

        1. Yeah, I noticed that for a change the ATF guy was wrestling with the criminal, trying to, you know, actually apprehend him (what an astounding concept!), and then some assholes show up and just start plugging away.

          1. You never know, he could have given the criminal the gun in the first place and just been upset that the guy decided to use it immediately.

              1. "No, dammit, I said take it to *Mexico*!"

        2. I hate it that a good cop was shot. But this is the only way to get the other cops to notice what they are doing. Killing a non-cop is no big deal, but killing one of their own might get their attention.

          1. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Agent John Capano

            I hate it that a good cop was shot.

            Objection. Assuming facts not in evidence.

            1. At the time, he was trying to apprehend a criminal, so in this case I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

              Now as to the fact that we even have a BATFE, that is a constitutional abomination. As a store, it would be awesome though.

              1. So he was not acting in his duty as an LEO, but just happened to be an armed individual at the scene. So no to being a good cop.

    5. Tulpa's right on this one too. No mistakes were made. They'll probably be an inquiry here as well. Sigh.

    6. So my assertion in the other thread holds out... when cops point their weapons, they pull the trigger.

      Two guys wrestling on ground for a weapon during a robbery: shoot zem, shoot zem both!

    7. This makes me laugh. The hope is they will kill each other off like any bunch of fucking gangsters.

  6. It's been two months since 24 year old Seth Adams was allegedly shot and allowed to die by a Palm Beach County deputy sheriff parked in the lot of Adams' family business.

    There's nothing being alleged here. The facts are uncontested, right? I understand covering your ass, but I think you can call this spade a spade.

    1. was shot and allegedly allowed to die is probably more accurate.

      1. Oh yeah, I guess the "allowed to die" bit would be actionable if they didn't throw in the magic A-word.

        1. Well, he's dead and the passive voice was used, so it seems safe and accurate to say that he was allowed to die.

          1. Death was allowed. Mistakes were made.

    2. Probably would be better if it said "...Seth Adams was shot and allegedly allowed to die...".

      My understanding its the allowed to die part (stood around and did nothing, blocked EMS from getting to him in time, etc.) that is being contested. That and whether or not Seth Adams really assaulted the officer. The fact that he was shot is pretty much undisputed fact I'd think.

      1. Also undisputed is the fact that I should refresh before posting to make sure someone hasn't stolen my thunder.


        2. iF U evar WAnt To C Ur ThUNdeR aGaiN bRiNG 10,000 in smAlL biLLs to ParK by NOON! No COpS oR ThE tHundeR geTs DEAD!

          1. Clutch is the only heavily Zeppelin influenced band I can think of that 1) doesn't sound like a watered-down duplicate and 2) doesn't blow goats.

            1. I'm tremendously excited to see them on the 12th. If you ever get a chance to see them play, don't miss it.

            2. Nazareth, particularly on Hair of the Dog is another, at least for me. Beautiful album but the Zep sound was definitely integral.


              1. That was meant to link to the lesser known track, Beggar's Day.

                1. Good live version


            3. My favorite Clutch tune... Burning Beard

      2. The fact that he was shot is pretty much undisputed fact I'd think.

        That all depends on what the cop said. If the cop said he wasn't shot, then he wasn't shot. Get your facts straight.

    3. He may have fallen onto the bullet.

      1. The officer threw the bullets at him. Or he grabbed the gun and shot himself. There are so many options it's hard to know the truth anymore.

        1. I heard that he was hugging the cop from behind.

    4. The only thing being alleged is that there was any reason to shoot him in the first place. I see absolutely no evidence that he did anything wrong. That the cops wouldn't show the surveillance video is, itself, suspect -- no, damning. Surveillance video is shown on the nightly news all the time, and this doesn't make it inadmissible in court. Why would they keep it secret, if it proves the cops' innocence?

  7. saying that information he is to release at a news conference as early as this week will "verify exactly what I thought from the beginning."

    Isn't that the definition of confirmation bias?

  8. I am getting a rage boner and im not even a man This shit HAS TO STOP!

    1. This shit HAS TO STOP!

      I agree, if for no other reason than to prevent female rage boners.

      1. Female rage boners: the number health issue facing the libertarian community. We don't have that many female libertarians to begin with, and we can't afford to have them get female rage boners.

        I'd like to take this opportunity to call upon the LEO community to help us out and STOP THIS SHIT. Seriously, it's already enough of a sausage fest up in here without women sporting rage boners.

          1. NOT CLICKING

            1. Ha, it's just a link to another comment from the OP. One less subtle.


  9. this just makes me wanna pound grain alcohol kerosene in the finest tradition of the wild west.

  10. What happened to the tape after the cops took it?
    Did anyone view it? Do they still have it? Did they "lose" it? Was it "erased"?

    1. Too bad reason dosn't have real reporters but thats NO EXCUSE

      1. Thanks Mary

    2. I seem to recall that the cameras at the business we're recording that night. I could be wrong.

      1. I seem to recall that you used to be better at punctuation.


          Weren't recording.

          1. As the surveillance camera for the bank what all the judge was a-jawing about, could y'all tell us what you done seen the day of the crime?

      2. Conan the Grammarian fucking hates misused apostrophes.

        1. Well, at least I admitted my fallibility up front.

        2. "Conan, what is best in life?"

          "To crush your apostrophes, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the semi-solons."

          1. What are semi-solons? Half wits who think they are wise? Oh, I get it, politicians!

            1. Jesus, this thread gets better and better. And I want to state my objection to the above being a mis-punctuation and call for it to be a misspelling.

              1. I MEAN EVERY WORD I TYPE.

                And type every word I mean, come to think of it.

            2. Shit. Semi-colons.

              Not sure if it's funnier with or without the original typo.

              1. Definitely funnier with.

                I'm just handing out the RC'z Laws like Halloween candy today. I may have to restock.

                1. Reason needs its own style guide. I think BP and RC can draft a copy. My contribution will be the overuse of ... . I love how versatile ellipses are, why just recently Tulpa used them and Lucy felt threatened. A magnificent mark of punctuation. Add in RC's laws and Joez law and we can change the face of communication.

                  WHO"S WITH ME!

    3. I'd think that now the investigation is over, it is no longer protected against FOIA requests, but I could be wrong. Certainly the family could file a civil case and regain it via discovery and release it.

    4. Time to update the security camera systems. People need to have DVRs for that, backed up off site so the cops (or robbers or other bad guys) can't just "seize the tape". But you just know that the fact that they aren't showing the tape to everyone they can means that it doesn't make the cops look good.

    1. Does that page have an autoplay video that cant be turned off? Well fuck that.

  11. Offsite data storage!!!!!!!

  12. ...saying that information he is to release at a news conference as early as this week will "verify exactly what I thought from the beginning."

    The information he will release.

    1. I wonder about the information that he will not release.

  13. Fuck. You check out for a couple of weeks and this shit happens? In countries where the cops are much more openly corrupt, they like to maintain the fantasy that America is this bastion of safety. Where if you're a good looking young white kid, you're going to be OK. It will not be easy breaking the news that the cops in the US are as fucking dangerous as they are anywhere else.

    1. The Carabinieri have 19 year olds who lack basic gun safety protocols such as safe direction and trigger finger placement. Just saying, and with MP5s no less.

      1. There's always the Guardia Civil if you go to Spain. These guys were formed under Franco, and I've heard they still like his methods. Don't make fun of their hats.

        1. Those are some fucked hats, dude.

      2. You should see the Afghan National Police.. of course, they look like Sherlock Holmes crossed with Robocop compared with the provincial cops... I almost wanted to refer some of the Kapisa Province cops to the nearest Halo Trust refugee camp.

  14. as usual, the bigorati jump to conclusions

    several have said i would or do support the deputy's actions in this case

    i do not.

    i am not confident there was wrongdoing on the officer's part, but i think the BULK of evidence thus far is on the side of misconduct

    iow, it seems more likely than not

    simply put, as soon as a scene is made safe, medical care is PARAMOUNT.

    our first duty as law enforcement is preservation of life. period. full stop.

    recall that after the la bank robbery shooting, the cops were sued by family of the (automatic weapons and body armor toting) suspects for not rendering medical aid quickly enough. i don't recall ever seeing what the resolution was.

    but the point is clear. in my state, cops have no duty to render medical aid (my former state required it, and imo it absolutely should be a requirement of a law enforcement officer and cops SHOULD be trained as minimum first responders if not EMT's (i was trained as an EMT)) BUT...

    as soon as the scene is rendered safe, and when the guy is down on the ground and there are no other suspects believed to be in the immediate area... THE SCENE IS SAFE.

    if the deputy did not call for aid immediately or in any way hampered aid, he should be sued and possibly criminally charged.


    i note also that florida continues to seem a fucktastic state for LEO standards

    1. And yet, according to the Sheriff, nothing to see here. We jump to conclusions because the fucking ass-hole has already told us what the investigation will find. Fuck him. Fuck YOU and Fuck the Police. Die in a fire with your progeny and take Tulpa along for the ride.

    2. You know, not believing cops accounts of things, and even going so far as to say they are lying, is not bigotry, right?

      1. No, but attacking someone who's essentially agreeing with you, just because he's a cop, is.

        1. I don't think it's JUST because he's a cop. That certainly isn't why I disagree with him.

  15. He's my question about this incident:

    If you come across police who are "conducting surveillance" or setting up a speed trap or whatever, and they're on your property, are you entitled to say "Get the fuck out of here right fucking now, you fuck!" or not?

    Because again, the one thing the articles about this incident REFUSE to discuss is how the confrontation turned from a conversation into a confrontation. But given the description of the event, I literally don't see anything else it could reasonably have been, other than this citizen demanding the cop leave and the cop refusing, and then one or both of them losing their temper.

    1. Here's how you can tell who works for who.

      The one who can get away with telling the other guy to go fuck themselves is the boss.

      Try telling a "public servant" to go fuck themselves. Or better yet, don't.

    2. as usual, attitude is so important in outcome. iow, why say "Get the fuck out of here right fucking now, you fuck!" and not "sir, i do not want you conducting law enforcement operations on my property. please leave"

      politeness wins. almost always. it has for me in 20 yrs of law enforcement and i strongly suspect many of the people here who have negative experiences with law enforcement also had piss poor attitudes towards them at the time and expressed same.

      in a perfect world, it wouldn't matter. in the real world, it does. the ONE time i was treated rudely and harshly by cops (and i had tons of cop encounters in college since i played in a band) was when i was a dick. lesson learned

      but yes, cops don't have a right to use private property as a speed trap or surveillance (generally speaking) without permission

      now , under the concept of STANDING, if you are the target of such surveillance etc. it does not matter that the cops weren't lawfully present on ANOTHER person's property, since you have no standing since you weren't the party wronged.

      1. this is similar to how if i interrogate dirtbag A without miranda, and i should have mirandized him, what he says CAN be used against dirtbag B since he has no standing to protest dirtbag's A right violation. otoh, it can't be used as dirtbag A (as direct evidence). state law varies SOMEWHAT.

        fwiw, when i used to run a lot of radar, i frequently had homeowners in residential areas approach me and INVITE me to run radar from their driveway etc.

        however, absent such permission, it is not appropriate to do so and if told to leave, the cop must

        generally speaking

        iow, if he has no other reaosn to be on the property. there are numerous exceptions, for example, i have the right to be on a licensed liquor premises without cause, and even do an inspection (taps, server licenses etc.) . similar laws apply to gaming institutions.

        then of course there are areas like malls, etc. which one has access to as invitee or licensee, but i digress

        sarcasmic is of course (and as usual) wrong. you will usually have perfectly acceptable results if you assert your right to tell an officer to leave your property (i suggest politely) IF you have such a right.

        if the cops are in the middle of investigating a DV, a dropped 911 call, etc. you HAVE no such right, but cops don't have a right to be on your property "just because".

        1. So then, pig on my property illegally, I ask pig, politely, to get out. Pig kills me, my boss "investigates", promotion/commendation. Awesome. Die in a fire with your progeny and Tulpa.

          1. D'oh, HIS boss "investigates". Fucking rage is messing with me.

            1. rage and bigotry only makes you a smaller person. like so many bigots here.

              treat people with respect and you get respect in return

              that holds nearly universally. it is unsurprising to me that so many people here have negative encounters and sad bitter lives, because of their attitude.

              attitude counts.

              treating people with respect... using manners WORKS.

              it gets better results.

              1. Teach that to the shit-stains they give badges to you boot-licking statist piece of shit.

                1. smooches.

                  troll-o-meter: .001

              2. rage and bigotry only makes you a smaller person.

                Especially in the genital area.

        2. Shorter Dunphy: Give him a rim job and he might leave nicely, otherwise expect a good ass whooping and try not to break his hand with your face.

          1. no, shorter dunphy is that wheaton's law applies outside the world of gaming: don't be a dick.

            spread love and respect and you get love and respect in return

            act like a bitter asshole, like you so clearly emote in nearly every one of your posts and you get unacceptable results. this applies to all interactions, not just cops.

            bigots tend to be bitter, sad, insecure, assholes. so, it doesn't surprise me that you act this way

            but i can tell you if you have love in your heart and respect in your voice, you get better results.

            i don't care if you are dealing with a BGD with multiple felony convictions under his belt, or a soccer mom or a cop.

            there is a moral duty to treat others with respect, and it doesn't surprise me that a small bigot like you doesn't understand this

            not to get all john lennon and shit, the but the love you take is equal to the love you make

            and stuff

            1. The fact of the matter is that police should act professionally, even if the person they are dealing with isn't licking their asshole.

              What you fail to comprehend is that I lost my trust and faith in law enforcement as a result of them treating me like a worm, even while I showed them respect. I showed them respect because I actually believed all that nonsense about serving and protecting. Now that I know better I still treat them with respect. Only now it is for fear of my life.

              1. the fact of the matter is that in the real world police are people too and you are less likely to get good results if you are an asshole

                and REGARDLESS of results, it's still a moral imperative to be NICE to people and be RESPECTFUL

                like i said, you have a RIGHT to be an asshole but it's the wrong choice and in the long run you will reap negative results from being an asshole.

                call it karma, or whatever, but attitude matters

                you can keep glossing over this point and emphasizing your right to be an assmunch, which i have never denied, or you can decide to treat people with love and respect and you might learn that the world becomes a better place

            2. Dunphy, the problem with your entire argument is this:

              If the LEO decides to not be polite, he can say whatever he wants and I get to sit there and take it.

              If I decide not to be polite, the LEO can find some pretext to arrest me, and every other LEO around will back him up. And if I don't take his shit right there on site, he can shoot me, and his superiors will back him up. It's 99% certain that's what happened in this case: the citizen told the cop to leave, probably rudely, and the cop decided to teach him respect. The citizen didn't back down, there was a physical confrontation, the cop shot him. Nothing else makes any sense, at all.

              And the proper name for a social relationship where one party can indulge his moods with impunity and the other must hold his tongue or be violently abused is tyranny.

              1. you don't have to sit there and take it if you are not neing detained.

                regardless, you can wank all you want, but the reality is this - in almsot ANY encounter and certainly in the aggregate

                1) it is a moral duty to be respectful towards other people

                2) it tends to get better results in your life if you are respectful and if you spread love not hate

                feel free to be an asshole. feel free to spread hate.


                don't come bitching to me when you find yourself bitter, alone, having a heart attack at an overly young age, etc.

                i get it. many people here hate cops

                so fucking what?

                treat them with respect, just like everybody else.

                it's really that simple

                1. treat them with respect, just like everybody else.

                  Why do you assume that we don't?

                  Don't you think that we might show a little extra respect to someone who, if they decide that they don't like us for some reason, may decide to beat the living shit out of us or even kill us and face no consequences?

                  It's one thing to hate cops, it's another to be plum stoopid.

                  1. Why do you assume that we don't?

                    You have to ask this?

                    1. You have to ask this?

                      Tulpa, in your case it is because you haven't a whit of common sense.
                      Then again, I didn't ask you.

                    2. Why do you assume that we don't?

                      You have to ask this?

                      And you wonder why you get lumped in with the other one.

                    3. sarcasmic is a rank asshole on this blog. Maybe he's a super nice person in real life but the evidence available to us here doesn't point to him treating people with respect in real life.

                    4. If the person I'm talking to has a club, a gun, and an itch, I can be a really nice guy.

                    5. I don't care if you get ranked as the number one asshole on the internet, you're usually going to defer from getting confrontational with people that have multiple ways of kicking your ass in real life.

                    6. And you wonder why you get lumped in with the other one.

                      Because both of us act respectfully toward others and encourage others to do the same?

                      Kind of sad for a community when that makes one stick out like a sore thumb.

                    7. And by respectfully you mean call someone a liar. Nice.

                    8. Where did I call someone a liar?

                    9. Perhaps dunphy does, but most leo's don't (in the real world.) That's the point. Most leo's treat "civilians" with fear, contempt and hatred, as evidenced by any perusal of policeone, or any candid/drunk conversation with a leo.

                2. Yeah, that cop sure showed Seth some "respect".

                3. I try to treat everyone with respect and dignity since they are human beings. But that works both ways and since you're the one with the gun and the power, the onus is on you to be more respectful to me: THE MOTHERFUCKER PAYING YOUR GODDAMN SALARY.

                  1. ^^^^THIS^^^ A THOUSAND TIMES!

            3. there is a moral duty to treat others with respect

              Oh, bullshit on toast. Respect is earned, motherfucker, and you haven't banked shit.

      2. Dunphy, how do you square your admission that a citizen can ask you to leave his property under most circumstances, with your implication that you will only do so if asked politely?

        1. I am not sure he does. The fact is that cops think they should be entitled to respect that nothing in the law says they should get. It is a free country. Cops really don't like that.

          1. everybody is entitled to respect. that's what you don't seem to get. cops and everybody else.

            it's a moral imperative.

            and if you go through life treating people with disrespect, you will have a less satisfying , less happy life, and you will likely get worse results in general - whether that be poorer health (yes, it matters), getting your faced punched by some drunk , etc. etc.

            respect is a moral imperative. it's not just cops that deserve respect, it's people in general.

            i'm a libertarian. i am well aware one has the RIGHT to be a dick. it doesn't therefore follow that one SHOULD be a dick.

            one has the RIGHT to be a fatass wanker and walk around in tight spandex and smell like shit

            feel free to do that. hygiene is also a moral duty, if you live in society.

            again, feel free to treat cops and others as asshole and feel free to reap inferior results.

            our job on earth is to make things better not worse. treating people like a dick makes things worse

            1. You aren't entitled to anything. Respect is earned.

              i'm a libertarian.

              If that were true, you would quit your job.

              1. It's in your best interest to treat people with respect, at least until they've proven they don't deserve it.

                1. That still does not make it an entitlement.

                2. It's in your best interest to treat people with respect, at least until they've proven they don't deserve it.

                  And law enforcement, as a profession, has amply demonstrated that it doesn't deserve it.

            2. Dunphy, I agree with you about treating others with respect. I make it a point to do so, and it is the best way to go through life.

              I do have one question, though. What if I, a "civilian", have an encounter with a cop where I am respectful but I receive none in return. What is my recourse?

              1. For mere "disrespect", you should file a complaint with the agency he's a part of. It might be ignored, but it might not be.

                If it's more than just disrespect, you can try to sue.

                Utopia is not an option.

            3. I know you won't admit this, but you think cops should be allowed to treat others like assholes, and "civilians" just have to deal with it. You think (unfortunately rightly) that you are a member of a privileged caste who rarely has to deal with the consequences of their actions.

        2. i didn't say that. i said that you get better results if you act politely IN ALL ENCOUNTERS.

          as usual, you read into my posts what you want to see. i did not say a cop would ignore your request if you are a dick. i said being a dick is counterproductive and is more likely to lead to negative results.

          let's say you are a dick. the cop leaves your property but he remembers you and your car. a week later he is running radar and catches you going 50 in a 40 zone. is he more likely to give you a ticket because you were such an asshole? most likely yes.

          it's not a perfect world, and cops are imperfect.

          in general, treating people with respect pays off. try it. don't be dick

          1. If I am a dick to him, he is free to not like me. And if that means him not letting me off on a ticket I deserve, that is his right.

            1. again, this is not about rights. nobody denies you have a right to be an asshole and treat anybody and everybody with disrespect.

              i am saying you have a moral imperative not to

              just because you have a right to do X, does not mean you should do X

              that holds for many X

              and certainly, as a libertarian, i realize there is a metric assload of examples of things that one should have a right to do (iow govt. should not have the power to restrict same) but you still should not do

              also, just because you have the right to do something (iow govt. has no right to restrict it) doesn't mean you won't and shouldn't suffer the slings and arrows of shunning, ostracization and other societal etc. pressures if you are an assmunch

              again, only on would people ADVOCATE that one SHOULD be an asshole.


              1. I have every right to be an asshole to a cop. And he has no right to break the law to take his revenge. He works for the public. His job is to take abuse.

                That is what you don't get Dunphy. As a cop you assume a higher responsibility than you would otherwise. If you don't want that responsibility, find another line of work.

                1. You don't get it, even though you should. Cops get greater power with less responsibility. That's the point of being a cop, or really any government position. Authority without accountability, power without responsibility.

              2. And only a statist boot-licking fascist piece of shit would think it is OK to shoot a person for being a dick. That is what your entire argument boils down to. Be polite of some boot-stomping fascist pig will shoot you for your trouble.

              3. and certainly, as a libertarian,

                From the man who believes that the vast majority of laws are just.

              4. Actually, leo's are the only ones who in real life act as if they should be able to act like an asshole and not suffer any consequences.

          2. is he more likely to give you a ticket because you were he is such an asshole?


            1. no. i already explained this to you. i realize that i am attacking your very essence. assholeness. i realize that makes you uncomfortable.

              whatever. cops are people too. they deserve respect. if i can treat a multiple convicted felon burglar thief drug addict with respect, you can treat a cop with respect.

              you don't have to LIKE him.

              but it's simply wrong to treat people with disrepsect and especially because of the group he belongs to

              treating a cop disrespectfully just because he's a cop is bigotry. it's just like treating a person of a certain race that way because of their race.

              you don't know him, and he may or may not be a good person. show a little respect and move on

              1. Again, why do you assume I treat cops disrespectfully?

                Do you think I'm so stupid that I'm going to be a dick to a guy who can beat the living shit out of me on a whim and face no consequences?

                I may be an asshole, but I do have a sense of self preservation.

                1. again , you are completely full of shit. cops routinely face consequences up to and including prosecution for "beating the living shit out of people" without cause

                  i realize you live in some fantasy world where the cops maraud through the countryside and beat people for no reasona nd face no consequences.

                  you are deluded.

                  and i am sure when you were arrested and tried for DUI, the cop didn't beat the shit out of you

                  your delusions really are amazing if you live in this fantasy world where cops can beat people up w/o consequences.

                  the last time i saw a cop use excessive force, he gave a light slap to a kid that that spit on the ground repeatedly while he talked to him

                  and the cop got 3 days (first offense ever) which is reasonable.

                  hardly a situation where they get away with anything

                  again, thousands of cops are fired every year for abusing force, and hundreds are prosecuted. you are simply delusional

                  1. HaHaHaHaHaHa, Consequences. LOL!

                  2. the last time i saw a cop use excessive force, he gave a light slap to a kid that that spit on the ground repeatedly while he talked to him

                    In "civilian" world, we call that assault and/or batter, depending on your jurisdiction, and us little people get arrested for that. And sued.

                    Your cop should have been fired at a minimum. A three-day rip is not reasonable for initiating force.

                  3. your delusions really are amazing if you live in this fantasy world where cops can beat people up w/o consequences.

                    All I know is what I've seen. And I've watched with my own eyes police beat the shit out of people who weren't resisting. Destroy their personal property as well.

                    And nothing else happened.

                    1. What are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the sacrosanct Word of a Knight in Blue?

                  4. again, thousands of cops are fired every year for abusing force, and hundreds are prosecuted.

                    The fact that thousands of cops are apparently abuse force every year by their own department's admission, but only hundreds are prosecuted, sounds to me an awful lot like a double standard.

              2. But there should not be a death penalty for being a dick. Never mind summarily executing someone for being disrespectful.

          3. Occupying my property without my permission, and without even asking first, is itself disrespect.

            People who treat me with disrespect actually aren't entitled to my respect, Dunphy. That's also a moral imperative.

            What you're saying is that this cop was entitled to disrespect this citizen and the citizen should have crawled up to him on his hands and knees and cringingly begged his pardon.

            1. rubbish. just because somebody is doing something wrong doesn't mean they don't deserve respect.

              i arrest a guy for auto theft, he's clearly done something wrong. i still treat him with respect

              why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

              like i said, feel free to go through life as a petty, sad, bitter asshole

              i prefer a higher road.

              1. So what happens when the cop says "No. Fuck you."?

                1. So what happens when the cop says "No. Fuck you."?

                  You know that's almost certainly what happened, too.

                  Any reasonable person knows that the conversation went like this:

                  Adams: "Hey man, there's no parking here."

                  Custer: "This is police business. Move along!"

                  Adams: "What happened? Who got arrested?"

                  Custer: "I told you to move along!"

                  Adams: "Fuck you this is police business. Get the hell out of my parking lot."

                  Custer: "You're under arrest for disorderly conduct and impeding an officer."

                  Adams: "Fuck you, this is my fucking parking lot!" [Runs back to his car.]

                  Custer: BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

                  1. Fluffy, I think you nailed it.

              2. This is morally absurd and completely nullifies your earlier point.

                You started out by saying that everyone owes everyone respect, and if you don't treat people with respect, you don't get to object if you get bad results.

                But apparently that rule does not apply to Sergeant Custer. Because now you're saying that even though he treated Adams and his family with disrespect, Adams should still have been polite.

                Why shouldn't Custer have been the one with no right to object about his bad results once he treated someone with disrespect?

                Oh, right, I forgot.

                I believe in reciprocity. If you think you can convince me that reciprocity is not a moral principle, you're sadly mistaken.

        3. I am not sure he does.

          He does say "attitude is important to outcome." I took that to mean that if I had a bad attitude when I asked him to get off my lawn, I might get a different outcome than if I was property deferential.

          1. As I said I would not reply to a particular bad faith commenter I will be replying to RC. "Someone" above stated the importance of treating people with respect and that to disrespect someone will result in the same. This same person made the following comment directly above:

            this is similar to how if i interrogate dirtbag A without miranda, and i should have mirandized him, what he says CAN be used against dirtbag B since he has no standing to protest dirtbag's A right violation.

            Now, that sounds an awful lot like NOT ONLY disrespect but bigotry and bias. These people being interrogated, ostensibly, have NOT been convicted of a crime as evidenced by the fact they are being interrogated and needing of Miranda notification. So, to claim on one hand that all people deserve respect, including cops, and when disrespected, cops, understandably though admittedly wrongly, will act in a malfeasant manner and THEN go on to state without evidence that two individuals are "dirtbags" is the height of a disingenuous argument. In this country people are innocent until shown beyond a shadow of a doubt by a judge or jury that they are not. To have a police mentality that all people being interrogated are "dirtbags" (or that ANY people being interrogated are "dirtbags") is symptomatic of exactly why so many people on this board choose to believe police deserving of less respect. This comment is purely directed at RC. He is the one with the laws anyway.

      3. as usual, attitude is so important in outcome. iow, why say "Get the fuck out of here right fucking now, you fuck!" and not "sir, i do not want you conducting law enforcement operations on my property. please leave"

        Mmmmhmm... attitude, everything. I was the first (and only) witness on the scene to a hit and run accident in my neighborhood, and was the person who made the 911 call. When the first cop arrived, he saw me standing by the smoking car, he asked me if it was my house I was standing in front of, I said "No..." and was about to follow up with where my house was, and he interrepted me and told me, "Then GET OUT!".

        I'm lucky I wasn't reaching into my back pocket for my wallet, he probably would have killed me as I was "reaching".

        And yes, he was a shave-head with Oakley sunglasses.

        1. I've had similar experiences.

          You can show them all the respect in the world and they'll still treat you like a bug that needs to be swatted.

    3. If you come across police who are "conducting surveillance" or setting up a speed trap or whatever, and they're on your property, are you entitled to say "Get the fuck out of here right fucking now, you fuck!" or not?

      Yes you are. They have no right to be there absent a warrant, which they wouldn't have in that situation. If the guy in this case told the cop to leave, from that point on the cop was trespassing.

      My guess is that is how the argument started.

      1. I think we need a "felony murder" standard for judging LEO shootings.

        In other words, if any element of the LEO's behavior was illegal, the shooting is automatically no good, no matter what the citizen did or didn't do.

        So (for example) if you enter property without a warrant, and the citizen appears dressed in Mau-Mau warpaint, dragging a duffel bag full of severed heads and a tactical nuke, if you shoot him it's manslaughter.

        Because what we have now is a situation where no matter what mistake the LEO makes, and no matter if they're in the wrong, as long as they can say you were 'threatening' in some nebulous way they can shoot you.

        1. yawn. utter hogwash in the analysis

          again, you are clearly a person who is completely familiar with actual case facts because PLENTY of mistakes a cop makes (or a "civilian") are used against them in shooting situation reviews, and that's reality.

          but the other reality is that we live in a world that has rules and if cops follow the rules for a shooting, they will be upheld by the reviewing bodies. those rules differ strongly from what you think they would be in your fantasy world, but fortuantely we live in a world that sets reasonable restrictions on use of force, not unreasonable ones, generally speaking

          1. The law says that if I am breaking the law and somebody dies in events that only transpired due to my law-breaking, I am guilty of felony murder.

            Why isn't that a reasonable standard for police?

            1. Because fuck you. That's why.

            2. Why isn't that a reasonable standard for police?

              As a mere citizen you must second guess the consequences of your actions, even if it might lead to personal harm.

              Police aren't so constrained. Their safety is more important than yours, which means they don't have to second guess themselves. If you die as a result, tough titties.

            3. Not just law-breaking, it has to be a felony offense.

              1. Breaking the law under color of authority is usually, and should be, a felony. That so few pigs get charged with that shit shows what a joke it is.

          2. but the other reality is that we live in a world that has rules and if cops follow the rules for a shooting, they will be upheld by the reviewing bodies

            The rules for cops are far more lenient than they are for citizens.

  16. I seem to recall another case where a guy got shot after he walked up to a couple of cops on his property, but don't recall details. A little help, here?

    1. You mean the one where the fucking pigs were doing drug deals on his property and came out and told them to fuck off and they shot him? I think that was in NY somewhere. The state, not the infected sore that is the city.

      1. Actually, that one was in Florida too. Jacksonville.

        1. I remember Charlie Crist visiting and saying it was a regrettable casualty of the drug war, and we need to redouble our efforts to win it.

    2. Were you thinking of the Isaac Singletary case?

      Sadly, if you google for 'Isaac Singletary', the first two or three results are to threads at Reason. We're the only ones who seem to care about this shit.

      1. That's the one I was thinking of. And notice that the fucking pigs were asked to leave by the homeowner, refused and then shot him when he got his gun. "Felony Murder" right there. But, nothing else happened. Like that retired Marine the assholes shot in his own house. Fuck them, Fuck Dunphy and Fuck you too Tulpa. Please, Please, Please can you all just die in a fire already?

      2. You'll notice some rageful comments against the cops involved from me in the Reason threads on that case.

        1. So your not a pig apologist? Don't believe it. Die in Dunphy's fire please. Keep sucking that cop off.

      3. That case reminds me of another law change I think we need vis-a-vis police operations:

        Namely, that if undercover police are attempting to impersonate criminals, they should be estopped from arresting or charging a citizen who is taken in by their deception and treats them as if they are actually criminals.

        1. Depends on what the citizen is doing. If the citizen is attempting to stop their pseudo-crime, I'm with you. If the citizen is attempting to cooperate with their pseudo-crime, no.

          1. Well, yes. Thanks for adding that level of specificity.

  17. For the record, I condemn this instance of probable police abuse.

    1. Die in a fire with Dunphy. You can eat his ass out while the flames lick yours.

    2. I am surprised. What is your insistence on support for defending law enforcement in other instances? Is it simply a steadfast determination not to jump to conclusions? You come up with some pretty off-the-wall ideas, but I am actually curious as to how you determine this one was police abuse but the guy who got shot in his apartment earlier was not.

      1. Because as was posted up thread, he is just a contrarian asshole. He has no real opinions, at least not any that he will share. Just another troll so into the fire along with Dunphy.

      2. There's no plausible explanation that doesn't involve gross misconduct by the officer in this case. Even if the shooting was legit, the denial of medical care is horrendous.

  18. I am amazed that Dunphy does not see the parallel between our outrage at the abuse of asymmetric power by LEO and politicians.
    And that he does not see that each and every excuse he makes for LEO has a twin for political apologists.
    But hypocrisy is certainly an inseparable part of human nature, to varying degrees.

    I have been respectful of every LEO I have encountered. I have been treated respectfully most of the time. The problem is the asymmetry of power of me being a dick vs. the cop.
    Dunphy would say most cops would not abuse that power. And slaves could say that most masters would not beat you to death for looking at a white woman.

  19. Has Mr. Dunphy now stopped using the term "civilian" - I think I saw 'people', 'homeowner' and such - its a step in the right direction!

    1. Substituting the words doesn't make much of a difference if the intent is still there. See Huckleberry Finn rewrites that change out nigger for slave.

      1. Baby steps, g B, baby steps.

    2. "Untermensch" was deemed too provocative.

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