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Policy

Take the Grammartarian Grammar Test at WSJ

Tim Cavanaugh | 6.24.2012 2:51 PM

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Employers say young people have fewer grammar skills than did their olde-tyme ancestors, according to the Wall Street Journal's Sue Shellenbarger. The hardest hit include Fort Lauderdale flack Don Silver: 

"I cringe every time I hear" people misuse "is" for "are," Mr. Silver says. The company's chief operations officer, Mr. Silver also hammers interns to stop peppering sentences with "like." For years, he imposed a 25-cent fine on new hires for each offense. "I am losing the battle," he says.

Managers are fighting an epidemic of grammar gaffes in the workplace. Many of them attribute slipping skills to the informality of email, texting and Twitter where slang and shortcuts are common. Such looseness with language can create bad impressions with clients, ruin marketing materials and cause communications errors, many managers say.

There's no easy fix.

You can also take a 22-question grammar quiz. (No guarantee on that link.) I got 20 right, barely an A. 

I'm not persuaded that Bryan A. Garner, a grammar entrepreneur quoted at length, knows about which he talks. Shellenbarger cites Garner's condemnation of "I could care less" without mentioning the controversy over that phrase's possible origin as a crop of "I could care less but it would take an effort." 

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Tim Cavanaugh
PolicyNanny StateScience & TechnologyCultureEconomicsLanguageSocial NetworkingMedia CriticismJournalismPrint MediaBusiness and IndustryEducationPrintInternetFree SpeechSocial MediaTechnology
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  1. sage   13 years ago

    Yeah, this is totally a Cavanaugh post. What the problem is?

  2. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

    I know this is already been mentioned, but it bears repeating: PROMTHEUS IS AWFUL. It is Avatar-stupid.

    I can only be consoled if Reasoners write an alternate script so RS can do a Dallas-style 'it was all a dream/simulation' retcon on it. Bonus points if the characters are Reason editors and/or HR contributors.

    1. joshua corning   13 years ago

      read this:

      http://cavalorn.livejournal.com/584135.html

      1. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

        1) Please tell me that was a joke.

        2)From the Engineers' perspective, so long as humans retained that notion of self-sacrifice as central

        So the characters are retarded AND this movie is at war with Objectivism? FTS

        1. joshua corning   13 years ago

          I find the discussions about Prometheus to be highly entertaining.

          If the movie itself can generate stuff i like then i can't very well say i hated it regardless if it had retarded characters.

          Your above "review" that Prometheus was awful seems only intended to end those discussion.

          1. darius404   13 years ago

            Or it's just his opinion that the characters and plot are fucking retarded and backward, because they are.

            1. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

              THANK YOU

        2. Ted S.   13 years ago

          Ridley Scott was an Objectivist?

    2. heller   13 years ago

      Promethus wasn't awful. It was way way better than Avatar.

      1. heller   13 years ago

        http://redlettermedia.com/half.....rometheus/

        1. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

          No and no. I got 4:20 into that review before 1) "I liked Lost until the last season"-translation: I have no taste
          2) "Guy who wrote/directed/whatever Lost directed Prometheus" -translation: we know why it sucked asses.

          1. heller   13 years ago

            Ridley Scott directed Prometheus. Did you really see the movie?

  3. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

    I know this is already been mentioned, but it bears repeating: PROMTHEUS IS AWFUL. It is Avatar-stupid.

    I can only be consoled if Reasoners write an alternate script so RS can do a Dallas-style 'it was all a dream/simulation' retcon on it. Bonus points if the characters are Reason editors and/or HR contributors.

  4. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

    I know this is already been mentioned, but it bears repeating: PROMTHEUS IS AWFUL. It is Avatar-stupid.

    I can only be consoled if Reasoners write an alternate script so RS can do a Dallas-style 'it was all a dream/simulation' retcon on it. Bonus points if the characters are Reason editors and/or HR contributors.

  5. Almanian...still   13 years ago

    Tims post was real good. I have got 20 of 22 also. So the same score as Tims'.

    1. Suki   13 years ago

      Your invitation to intern at reason is in the mail.

    2. robc   13 years ago

      Ditto and me and engineeer.

    3. heller   13 years ago

      21/22! Suck it retards!

      1. Mensan   13 years ago

        I got 21/22; it's not that impressive.

    4. Pro Libertate   13 years ago

      22/22. Kneel before me.

  6. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

    I know this is already been mentioned, but it bears repeating: PROMTHEUS IS AWFUL. It is Avatar-stupid.

    I can only be consoled if Reasoners write an alternate script so RS can do a Dallas-style 'it was all a dream/simulation' retcon on it. Bonus points if the characters are Reason editors and/or HR contributors.

    1. Almanian...still   13 years ago

      Thanks for the warning - was thinking it might be good from the ads, but....

      Avatar awful? That's dangerous.

      Thanks again.

      1. heller   13 years ago

        Don't listen to him. Watch this:

        http://redlettermedia.com/half.....rometheus/

    2. Tulpa the White   13 years ago

      Yes, it's already been mentioned at least thrice.

      1. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

        Well it had to be repeated. For safety.

  7. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

    The squirrels agree with me on Prometheus clearly.

  8. Heroic Mulatto   13 years ago

    Such looseness with language can create bad impressions with clients, ruin marketing materials and cause communications errors, many managers say.

    There's no easy fix.

    Huh? The fix is quite easy, actually. Learn the prestige dialect of your language. For American culture, this would be the speech of the college-educated, middle-class.

    1. Suki   13 years ago

      For American culture, this would be the speech of the college-educated, middle-class.

      What dat is?

      1. Heroic Mulatto   13 years ago

        God, Suki, you even suck at "Ebonics". The correct form is "What dat be?"

        1. Suki   13 years ago

          Who dat is?

          1. sloopyinca   13 years ago

            Hey, where da white women at?

            1. Sudden   13 years ago

              Ebonics speakers know better than to end a sentence in a preposition. Seriously.

              1. Paul.   13 years ago

                "Where da warrant at" can be fixed by saying "where da warrant at, mufu"

        2. Francisco d Anconia   13 years ago

          Um...isn't it.."What be dat?"

    2. Bam!   13 years ago

      You mean, talk like a fag?

      1. Francisco d Anconia   13 years ago

        It's got electrolytes.

  9. Hugh Akston   13 years ago

    Poor writing education in public schools is a job creation program for copy editors and proofreaders.

    1. Suki   13 years ago

      It also appears to be a pathway to Black Studies grants.

  10. anarch   13 years ago

    I'm not persuaded convinced that Bryan A. Garner, a grammar entrepreneur quoted at length, knows about which he talks

  11. Mint Berry Crunch   13 years ago

    21 / 22

    I found a way to fuck up one of the "principal / principle" questions. I won't beat myself up over that, but if anyone ever sees me write "would of / could of / should of," please kill me.

    1. BakedPenguin   13 years ago

      For all intensive porpoises, grammar is a luxury of the rich. Meaning can be understood irregardless of weather a sentence is spelled right.

      1. Mad Scientist   13 years ago

        Spelling =/= grammar. I'll give you that spelling is a luxury, but sentences can mean completely different things when the grammar is incorrect.

        1. BakedPenguin   13 years ago

          I was trolling. I wanted to see how many horrific mistakes I could fit into 2 sentences and it still be somewhat believable.

          1. Mad Scientist   13 years ago

            Damn. Well, if you have a bridge to sell you may as well start your pitch, 'cos I'm obviously a sucker.

            1. BakedPenguin   13 years ago

              I'm probably the wrong person for that; my writing is sloppier than average around here.

            2. BakedPenguin   13 years ago

              I meant I'm probably the wrong person to pull the crap I was talking about, since my writing is poor.

              I do have a bridge in Alaska I bought off a late Senator, though...

        2. robc   13 years ago

          Many of the grammar rules dont lead to confusion either.

          If you use less instead of fewer or that instead of which, no meaning is lost.

          And to quote one of my linguistics professors: Language is descriptive, not prescriptive.

          If the meaning is correctly communicated, you spoke/wrote correctly.

  12. SugarFree   13 years ago

    I sure hope this whole thread de-evolves into people arguing with griefer dipshits.

    Grammar is a prison of the mind. Learn to see the bars of the cage for what they are.

    1. Heroic Mulatto   13 years ago

      Grammar is a prison of the mind.

      Ed Sapir and Ben Whorf would agree.

      1. Tulpa the White   13 years ago

        Lojban FTW

    2. db   13 years ago

      That's what poetry is for.

  13. db   13 years ago

    I got 95.5% (screwed up a that/which question).

    I have seen this problem as well, but I don't think it is at all isolated to younger employees. I have seen some truly cringe-inducing grammar come out of all ages. There are reports I've read that make me wonder how the author could have communicated well enough to earn a degree, much less to get hired. Engineers are particularly bad because many seem to think that communication is unnecessary and burdensome.

    It is absolutely the case that people do themselves a great disservice with poor grammar and writing skills. I'm not perfect, myself, but some people are so embarrassingly bad at grammar that it becomes almost impossible to see past their terrible writing to the content.

    1. shamalam   13 years ago

      "Engineers are particularly bad because many seem to think that communication is unnecessary and burdensome."

      I work in an organization that is very engineer-heavy. many of the emails I get are comical. Some of the truly gifted engineers in the group look like morans in writing. I attribute this to them simply speaking a differunt language

      1. Mad Scientist   13 years ago

        Joez law strikes again!

      2. Pi Guy   13 years ago

        WTF is a moran?

        At any rate, if you screen really hard for "engineers" who can communicate effectively, you might discount which ones can, you know, do engineering stuff.

        1. shamalam   13 years ago

          "WTF is a moran?"

          You know, a really dum guy. geesh, for a site called "reason", you guys shure are dum!

        2. Atanarjuat   13 years ago

          Moran

        3. SweatingGin   13 years ago

          http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/i.....morans.jpg get a brain, morans

        4. Atanarjuat   13 years ago

          Get a brain, Moran!

        5. Killazontherun   13 years ago

          WTF is a moran?

          Something Virginians do every two years.

        6. Suthenboy   13 years ago

          link your name to your email Pi Guy and I will send you a photograph of a moran.

          1. Suthenboy   13 years ago

            Never mind, Atanajuat linked to it. See photo in link.

        7. Francisco d Anconia   13 years ago

          Chachi's girlfriend.

          Moran

      3. Brutus   13 years ago

        Hey, I'm a EE and I got 21/22!

        I will say that two years of Latin and speaking a couple of other languages helps me understand English grammar far better, however.

        1. robc   13 years ago

          Speaking of which, any english grammar rule based on latin can be chucked out. Its a fucking germanic language, stop artificially forcing latin constructs upon it, fuckers.

          1. Almanian's Evil Twin   13 years ago

            So, basically, "fuck off slaver?" Yes.

        2. Sudden   13 years ago

          And clearly missed one because you failed to recognize that you're an EE instead of a EE.

          1. Brutus   13 years ago

            It keeps me humble.

    2. Broseph of Invention   13 years ago

      So you're saying you could tell a wise man by the way he speaks or spells?

      Then mister, you're a better man than I.

      I've worked with engineers my entire professional career, and would gladly take an easily-correctable document of grammatical errors than a marketing summary where the non-science author clearly has not understood the technology. I know that's not the point you were making, but superficial mistakes in writing, however annoying, are much smaller deals than substantive ones, and maybe engineers get that.

      1. Killazontherun   13 years ago

        There are trade offs that the human mind adjusts to given context. My grammar and syntax errors are much more prevalent after a work day spent doing something that is intensely creative like creating media assets (my main line of employment is with a third party company that supplies media and software assets) or involves a lot of programming decisions. A chill week of just reading through literature, and those problems pretty much go away.

        1. Killazontherun   13 years ago

          third party company that supplies media and software assets

          Yeah, it begs the question, but NDAs and all of that.

      2. Sudden   13 years ago

        It begs the question, how much of the technical errors being committed by marketing professionals are the direct result of those technical details being poorly relayed to them by functionally illiterate engineers?

        1. General Butt Naked   13 years ago

          His comment certainly raises that question.

          Good catch.

        2. Broseph of Invention   13 years ago

          Many, many do. Talking about technology at different levels for business, marketing, and operations is probably the hardest part of technology development. You can often tell because the level of technical writing will be mismatched, and you know it came from a "just write this!" moment of communication/nervous breakdown. I'm not blaming the marketing people - God bless them, they do their best - but I don't think those difficulties come from grammar.

          As an aside, how many computer people here have read Bebop to the Boolean Boogie? I've heard of a few businesses that require non-EE/CE/CSC marketing people to read the book. If you can understand that book, you're ahead of most EE's graduating before 1980.

      3. db   13 years ago

        I am an engineer. I'm talking about the kinds of errors that make you cringe. A typo here or there is nothing. Some of the shit I've seen would turn you white!

  14. shamalam   13 years ago

    This test are stupid! I gots to have my money refunded.

    Cancel my prescription!!!

    1. Mr. FIFY   13 years ago

      Three months ago I could not spell "illiterite"; now I is one.

  15. Bob Straub   13 years ago

    21/22. I'm happy.

  16. West Texas   13 years ago

    22/22... My mom was a high school English teacher and I think she would have died of embarrassment if it hadn't rubbed off on me.

    1. sloopyinca   13 years ago

      Your mother rubbed off on you? She nasty!

  17. BoscoH   13 years ago

    21/22. Honestly, I misread the first "principal" fill-in. I am happy they had a fewer/less on the test. Misuse of those drives (that is correct!) me up the fucking wall.

  18. GlenchristLaw   13 years ago

    1. A test ought not quiz the same concept repeatedly (e.g., affect/effect, principal/principle).

    2. Both "that/which" questions are actually wrong, in the sense that the purportedly "correct" sentences are so poorly constructed as to be grammatically unacceptable anyway: "That [sic 1] book is a reference guide that [sic 2] covers the entire industry."?

    The sentence, "I ate the breakfast that I ate." is technically "grammatically correct" in terms of "that versus which," but it's still lousy writing.

  19. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

    OT: Paraguay ousts its local proto-Caudillo leftist asshole in Chief. There is hope for that region even if Paraguay is being criticised by all its neighbor even its conservative ones. The latter are just being weak and lame to be agreeable.

    1. Suki   13 years ago

      Start the countdown clock for the Maobamatrons to re-install him following the theme of Zelaya.

      1. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

        They failed in Honduras. But yeah you're right. That really was the first clue that Obama was 'something else' and the conservative vapors over him were actually pretty justified.

  20. Pi Guy   13 years ago

    And, FWIW, I got 19/22. But isn't the most important thing when writing the actual ability to communicate ideas?

    I actually believe that forums such as texting and Twitter simply demonstrate that spelling and grammar are less important than actually being able to speak the King's English.

    1. Voros McCracken   13 years ago

      "And, FWIW, I got 19/22. But isn't the most important thing when writing the actual ability to communicate ideas?"

      Not if your goal is to appear smarter than other people.

      I think Twitter has been a breakthrough for writing. Brevity is the soul of wit and all that.

      1. robc   13 years ago

        Brevity is wit.

        1. Almanian's Evil Twin   13 years ago

          Ha!

      2. Sudden   13 years ago

        You can't spell Twitter without wit.

  21. grrizzly   13 years ago

    I've got 22.

  22. Fist of Etiquette   13 years ago

    Eighteen. Stupid principle/principal and that/which. Whatever, English isn't even my first language.

    1. rsi   13 years ago

      Agreed.

      This is bull shit.

      If an employee says to the manager, "Sirs, I gots the network back up." This should be all the manager should care about.

      If the manager cares more about the grammar than the work he is total fucking jackass or racist shitbag and should be fired.

      1. MattJ   13 years ago

        Did your employee bring the network back online after a failure, or is he in possession of a copy of all the network data?

    2. Tulpa the White   13 years ago

      With principal/principle and affect/effect it's best to go by the rule of thumb that one version is almost always a noun (principle/effect) while the other is a verb or adjective (principal/affect). Of course there are exceptions in both cases.

  23. Old Dave   13 years ago

    The test really was easy. They avoided some of the most quirky aspects of English grammar, for instance:

    "I'd like to meet whoever/whomever wrote that quiz."

    "Let he/him who is without sin among you cast the first stone."

    1. Bitter Taxpayer   13 years ago

      Better still:

      "The award will be given to whoever/whomever gets the highest score."

      And

      "He's the guy who/whom they claim is the best electrician."

      1. hotsy totsy   13 years ago

        How about "whosoever"?

    2. Tulpa the White   13 years ago

      "Whom" and all its derivatives have basically disappeared from actual English speech, except for those actively trying to effect an air of superiority.

      1. Cytotoxic   13 years ago

        Actively and effectively. If you can use 'whom' correctly and consistently, the world is yours.

      2. Almanian's Evil Twin   13 years ago

        "Aks not for who the bell rings - they ring for yins." - That One Guy

  24. shamalam   13 years ago

    My advice is this:

    1. strike affect and effect from your vocabulary.
    2. strike your, you're, there, their, and they're from you're vocabulary.
    3. strike apostrphees from your vocabulary, but first learn to spell it (or is it them?).
    4. fuck english, learn chinese. you're gonna need it to talk to your masters soon.

    1. Killazontherun   13 years ago

      Rules are for the played.

    2. Broseph of Invention   13 years ago

      Wow dude you said chinese when you meant binary when you think about it Lol!

      http://www.killallhumansandrapetheirlaptops.tk

      1. shamalam   13 years ago

        +,1

      2. Sudden   13 years ago

        +01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110111 01100101 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101

    3. Tulpa the White   13 years ago

      H R is already striking ampersands from my vocabulary.

  25. Bitter Taxpayer   13 years ago

    22/22, but I used to work in publishing and know what the answers are supposed to be.

    BTW, don't be too quick to brush Garner aside. He's wrong about a few things, but his usage guides are overall the best on the market.

  26. Voros McCracken   13 years ago

    20/22 = Math major

    Stephen Fry shares my opinion on this topic:

    Stephen Fry on Language

    1. Paul.   13 years ago

      Link gets posted in almost every grammar thread. But it's always appreciated.

  27. shamalam   13 years ago

    You know you are on HR when a post about; grammar garners this many responses.

  28. Tulpa the White   13 years ago

    If Don Silver time traveled back to the year 1850 the grammarians of that time would probably be aghast at his "grammatical errors" too.

    Once incorrect grammar becomes widespread enough, it becomes correct grammar.

    Of course, while the transition is underway you need to be careful to appease people on both sides, so you don't end sentences with prepositions at a university professor cocktail party but make damn sure not to say anything resembling "to whom" when sitting with the homies at the bus stop.

    1. robc   13 years ago

      This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.

    2. Paul.   13 years ago

      Irregardless, we have to tow the lion.

  29. Suthenboy   13 years ago

    "But isn't the most important thing when writing the actual ability to communicate ideas?"

    Thanks Pi, that is the heart of the matter right there. Still, I admit my head nearly exploded once when I was browsing the local grocery store's produce section and overheard;

    Question - " Hey! I hasnt seen you foreva! How you been? Watchu been doin?"

    Answer - " I teaches english now!"

  30. SIV   13 years ago

    Only 20 of 22 and from a former editorial page editor at the storied LA Times? While I keep getting knocked "out cold" in more ways than one at my dead-end low-paying job. 20/22 and with no formal English education beyond a joint enrollment community college class when I was 16(2 quarters). State U thought I was so proficient they let me skip English and take advanced dope smoking. The US Foreign Service exam was somewhat less impressed with my native language skillz.

  31. SIV   13 years ago

    When my local grocer changed the signs on express aisles to read "10 items or fewer" (they used to say "less") I noticed a hell of a lot more EBT deadbeats trying to go through with full carts.

  32. Brutus   13 years ago

    21 of 22.

    I think I missed of the "which/that" questions.

    1. Paul.   13 years ago

      I missed almost all the which/that questions. Even answered a couple differently than I would have written them, thinking they were trying to trick my ass.

      Got all the 'it's/its' questions. Missed a couple of the 's/s' questions, and can't lose on the me/i questions. In my opinion, no one should ever get a me/i question wrong, because there's a very simple trick to always knowing which you should use.

      1. Voros McCracken   13 years ago

        Taking Latin generally helps a bunch with grammar issues, the biggest one being the "predicate nominative."

        Correct: It's I.
        Incorrect: It's me.

        The problem,of course, is that the second sentence is "correct" in almost all situations you would normally run across. The correct sentence sounds horribly pretentious because we normally don't use all of those cases in English. So I almost always use "It's me" despite knowing that it is incorrect.

  33. I, Kahn OClast   13 years ago

    21 of 22. I still think that book they publish is the one that I like to read on weekends.

  34. Elphie   13 years ago

    22/22, bitches. And this from a man who barely graduated high school.

    1. Brian Sorgatz   13 years ago

      Perfect score for me, too?and I dropped out of college.

  35. edcoast   13 years ago

    I've made a career writing for big tech companies - not tech writing, mostly proposals. The state of written communication is terrible, but it comes from all areas. I know "writers" who are pretty bad, and I know technical SMEs who are some of the best no-bullshit communicators around. I've learned a lot from them. This article made the rounds on my team the other day. We were especially interested in how many companies are initiating writing training. It's a big part of our job and has the support from the highest levels.

  36. Paul.   13 years ago

    The company: its employees vs their employees. Easy to remember because corporations aren't people.

  37. DeadLenny   13 years ago

    18 of 22. Not bad for someone whose education ended at high school graduation... And that was (*ahem*) in Southern California.

  38. RantoYang   13 years ago

    I think we are going to have to hit it on up dude. Wow.

    http://www.Dot-Anon.tk

  39. Pro Libertate   13 years ago

    Grammar the Grammarian. How is there not a line of barbarian reading books with this name?

  40. Joseph C. Moore (USN Ret.   13 years ago

    "I could care less but it would take effort".

    1. Raymond Luxury Yach-t   13 years ago

      I could care fewer

  41. Juice   13 years ago

    22 out of 22. The questions were easy.

  42. Syd Henderson   13 years ago

    20 of 22, with both misses being which/that choices.

  43. Cell   13 years ago

    Is it ok to say "I could care less" even if you don't know the origin?

    Maybe it's just an idiomatic phrase at this point with its own understood meaning.

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