Can Lesbians Commit an Anti-Gay Hate Crime?
Earlier today, in response to my post about Dharun Ravi's "bias intimidation" trial, a reader wondered: What if Ravi were gay and spied on his roommate's makeout session out a "prurient interest in watching homosexual sex"? Objectively he would have done exactly the same thing, but he could hardly be accused of acting out of a bias against gay people. Right? Not so fast. The Boston Herald reports that three lesbians were recently arraigned on charges of "assault and battery with intent to intimidate" for beating a gay man while using "insulting homophobic slurs" (as opposed to complimentary slurs?). The attorney for one of the women says the man provoked the fight with racial slurs. The attorney for the two other women, who are sisters, says they did not even know he was gay. Their mother "told reporters the alleged attack 'can't be hateful' because both her daughters are lesbians." Wrong! "Someone who is Jewish can be anti-Semitic," explains Sarah Wunsch, an attorney with the ACLU of Massachusetts. "The mere fact that someone is a member of the same class doesn't mean they could not be motivated by hatred for their very own group."
Yes, that's the American Civil Liberties Union, many of whose members unfortunately do not see how punishing people for their bigoted motives amounts to punishing them for their beliefs. Reason contributor Harvey Silverglate, a Boston criminal defense attorney who served for years on the board of the ACLU of Massachusetts, would like to set them straight. "My guess is that no sane jury would convict [these women] under those circumstances," he tells the Herald, "but what this really demonstrates is the idiocy of the hate-crime legislation….If you beat someone up, you're guilty of assault and battery of a human being. Period. The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure."
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Could it be that they beat him up because he was white? And the PC DA doesn't want to admit there is such a thing as black on white hate crimes so he invented this reason?
Could be, but any way you slice it the whole hate crimes thing is BS.
Total BS. Do the punches hurt less if they are just hitting you because they are assholes?
the punches do not hurt less, nor are murder victims less dead. But the state is invested in making sure that correct thoughts are thunk in the hopes that correct actions will be taken, totally disregarding that humans are just as capable of the irrational as the rational. This case should, but will not, embarrass the thought police.
You sayin' we ain't lesbos, cracker? We oughta break your nose!
I am bi, i want to seek a bilover. I am 23 years old,slender,sexy,and beautiful. I am a member of __D a t e b i.c/0/M. there are hundreds of thousands of open-minded singles & couples looking to explore their bisexuality. I am also a member here, I think u will be the most attractive one there, lol~ just check it out, nothing lose if you don't like. Best wishes.
I am bigoted, and I want to seek a bifagdykes to beat the crap out of. I am 33 years old, potbellied, pimpled, and hideous. I intend to go to __D a t e b i.c/0/M to seek pretty sissies I can track to their homes and deface with a straight razor. There are dozens of out-of-the-box-thinking trolls and serial killers seeking to find bisexual spammers so they can terrorize and beat them bloody and then post videos of their pants-crapping humiliation on YouTube. Be advised we will be exploring your site to see if we can find out where you live. Happy hunting! We'll be bringing the tar and feathers and fence rails to the party.
It's amazing how identity politics are just straight up racism, repackaged. People really, really like to think about other people in a collective sense.
Us against them; from the beginning of time; until the end of time.
Kinnath is white on the left side. I am white on the right side.
Gorramed trekkies! 😉
but we both hate sidewalk mimes.
They are white on both sides.
Now that reference is gay.
Well, I am the gayest monster since gay came to Gaytown.
You're... twoofakind.
And in my mind now unfortunately you and Kinnath are both wearing grey Cheronian unitards.
Dark grey suit, white shirt, grey tie.
The boy's a time bomb.
"People really, really like to think about other people in a collective sense."
Seems like a generalization to me.
it's a generalization that fits liberal ideology. EVERY group of people is no more than its skin color or genitals or religion or some other marker. The whole notion of 'hate crime' is stupid on its face, like you are no less injured if you are assaulted by a thug for your wallet as opposed to assaulted for who you are. The left loves to categorize folks into neat little packages; makes them easier to control, and to incite at election time. The right does it, too, but not nearly as well.
This statement, however, is not a generalization.
In other words, people really like to other people. Haha!
Seriously though, the realization was brought home to me anew because of microaggressions and the contributors' extremely heavy use of the cis- prefix. They need to specify cis-this and cis-that in order to other the people they complain have been othering them forever. It's genius/amazing/insane.
Stop othering me!!!
I keep feeling like I'm saying "stop mothering me", which is just weird.
Stop smothering me!
Why put a pic of the Wood-Man alongside this article?
I suspect he has healthy lesbian fantasies like most non-Santorum males.
I, on the other hand, have Santorum fantasies.
Fuck you. Lesbian lust is an honorable liberal tradition. Even Hayek would agree.
I once had a date with a donkey dick that didn't turn out so well.
...though it turned out pretty well for the donkey.
In this we can agree.
Not only is the answer "Yes", the three should be convicted of a *Self-Similar* Hate Crime, a *Double* Hate Crime, or something like that with even more severe penalties.
"Hate crime" is an abomination.
yEAH! Self-loathing should be punishable by law!
Anyone who lacks the common decency to love herself does not belong in civilized Society.
Too true. Now, I'm off to turn myself in at the clink.
Best wishes for a speedy rehabilitation!
If they didn't call him white or comment on his skin color, I don't think so.
"My guess is that no sane jury would convict [these women] under those circumstances," he tells the Herald, "but what this really demonstrates is the idiocy of the hate-crime legislation....If you beat someone up, you're guilty of assault and battery of a human being. Period. The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure."
Thank you. Unfortunately, it will take more cases like this for the majority to ever publicly acknowledge it.
Did you turn off italics?
Apparently not, but unlike many others, I feel no need to apologize for editing errors made when posting ad hoc commentary on internet blogs.
I also didn't use the threaded comments system correctly, and I don't care.
this is why we can't have nice things.
You're such a rebel.
Apparently you did. My post was just a test. Sorry if I handled that poorly.
Hey, no problem.
Silverglate quote, FTW!
"The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure."
There are two categories of human beings: those who try to break down human beings into categories, and those who do not.
Of those who try to break down human beings into categories, there are those who try to break them down by race and those who try to break them down by sex.
What about those who break human beings down with sex?
STEVE SMITH is his own category
Don't lesbians and gay men historically not get along very well? Seems like I have heard that somewhere. If so, why? What is it about the two groups that causes the antagonism?
That little faggot wouldn't have sex with us. He's the REAL hater!
John|2.27.12 @ 4:04PM|#
Don't lesbians and gay men historically not get along very well?
Dude... aren't you kind of generalizing? (RACIST!!)
That said... I've known a lot more gay guys than dykes. Most of the gay guys were not, like, actively 'antagonistic' towards lesbos, but there was definitely some disparaging them at times. I can't really say what the vice-versa situation is (re: bull-dyke attitudes towards queeny gay men); however, I do know that lesbians can be pretty agressive when they've had a few beers. I know of at least 3-4 random "some crazy dyke attacked me!"-stories. I think it has something to do with the Male Gaze, patriarcy, and testosterone. Oh, that, and they don't realize until way too late that men *will* hit back when you kick them in the nuts.
I had a g/f in college who had a seriously fucking crazy gay roommate. She was actually quite fem and weighed about 110LBs and was fairly fem in a lesbian kind of way. She went berserk and pulled a kitchen knife on us once.
The kitchen knife had nothing to do with her lesbian-ness or general gay-ness, that was just her woman-ness.
I actually did one of the craziest things I have ever done. I was so pissed off I took it away from her and pinned against the wall and told her if she ever did that again I was going to break her neck. It was the most angry I have ever been in my life. She had this shocked look on her face. I guess she thought her womeness outweighed my 70 pound advantage.
Thank God she didn't make a stink or call the cops. Crazy bitch.
You're a brave man. I subscribe to:
Rush a gun, run from a knife.
REally? Most people are more likely to stab themselves than you. A gun in contrast is a whole different thing. Any idiot can pull a trigger. I would never charge a gun. The best thing to do there is run. Most people are lousy shots and don't stand a good chance of hitting you even if they have the nerve to shoot, which is unlikely in most cases.
You're overthinking the "fight or flight" thing. If unarmed, run from an armed assailant who intends to harm you if possible, because they have the advantage. Fight if you can't.
I guess she thought her womeness outweighed my 70 pound advantage.
There are some women who think they can get away with a lot of crazy shit towards men because of our society's generations-long inculcation of the chivalric ideal. It's made them believe that they can be abusive bitches and there won't be any repurcussions because of the emasculating threat of "Oh, you're a tough guy that hits women?"
What they don't realize, sometimes until it is too late, is that all the Action Grrrrl entertainment propaganda in the world doesn't change the biological fact that most men are physically capable of destroying most women with their bare hands, and they are rarely prepared for that reality if it's ever visited upon them.
Samantha Carter, at about 120 lbs., routinely beat up 200 lb., trained-to-be killers-from-birth, enhanced-by-alien-symbiots jaffa and did so with her bare hands while they were wearing metal armor.
...and she was the most brilliant physicist on Earth.
...and she was a superstar military pilot who could fly any aircraft including those based on alien technology.
...and her makeup never got smudged and her lipstick never wore off.
....and she made a mean waffle!
...and it wasn't blue!
Hand guns FTW!
Don't take this the wrong way John, but what kind of man whore are you?
Do you know how many "I had a girlfriend once" stories you've told on here? The number of first and 2nd dates you've had should have bankrupted you by now. 🙂
As for the topic, if certain groups can be inoculated against being charged with certain crimes by the mere nature of their identity, doesn't that suggest there's a serious "equal protection" problem with such a scenario?
So yeah, gay people can be charged with anti-gay hate crimes.
Back in the day, the worst. And yeah, gays can be charged with these crimes. But that doesn't make the laws any less stupid.
I was once walking past a gay-run coffee shop, which is right next to one of the oldest bars in town. There was a real knockout gal coming out with her dyke-butch girlfriend. The dyke looked like she wanted to kill me for inflicting my male gaze on her lipstick beauty. Dang, I was just appreciating the view.
Not that I have any fears of a woman, dyke or not, inflicting any harm on my lordly body. 😉
Historically, I think that many lesbians disapproved of the culture of promiscuity that is prevalent among gay men. And many gay men found lesbians to be oppressive and dull, with bad fashion sense. I think that's changed somewhat over the past couple of decades.
So both sides are right about each other.
I can't disagree with that. I think promiscuity is getting more endorsement since the advent of "sex positive" feminism. But the fashion sense of visible lesbians hasn't improved. And the advent of cyberculture hasn't done anything to dampen gay men's enthusiasm for semi-anonymous sex.
"the fashion sense of visible lesbians hasn't improved"
Rejecting hetero norms for female beauty is a big part of lesbian culture. It is associated with catering to men's desires and wearing clothing that reduces the ability to do anything physical. Lesbians reject the idea of being a disempowered, helpless princess.
It seems to me many lesbians reject any and all standards of beauty.
Historically, I think that many lesbians disapproved of the culture of promiscuity that is prevalent among gay men.
FTFY, but yeah.
The lesbian and feminist agendas were pretty identical back then; probably hasn't changed.
Oops, that was me. Forgot to change stupid joke handle.
Complete and utter lack of interest in or comprehension of the other despite being lumped together as one group in the popular imagination, would be my guess.
Yes, this too. Only in small towns do lesbians and gay men go to the same bars in any great numbers. That tells you something.
I should add that a lot of the lumping together is done by the PC wing of both groups... but you're right, left to their own devices they don't associate much.
Meh. Some do, some don't. Hard to generalize.
Politics make strange bedfellows, John. We share common political goals, but culturally very different. A little joke illustrating this difference:
Q: Where do lesbians go on the second date?
A: U-haul (implying that they move in together).
Q: Where do gay men go on the second date?
A: What second date?
The older lesbians I have known tend to have pretty stable relationships. But the younger ones are smorgasbord or raging hormones and neurosis.
But the younger ones are smorgasbord or raging hormones and neurosis.
Yes, yes. Go on.
But the younger ones are smorgasbord or raging hormones and neurosis.
How can you tell them apart from the straight women?
You can't. It is just the produce of putting two women in a relationship. Neurosis squared.
It is just the product of putting two women who both wish they were men in a relationship together.
Constant struggle for dominance.
It's only a joke, John, and like most is a gross generalization.
Not going to touch your second sentence.
It is true. Look up the statistics. Lesbians have a higher incidence of domestic abuse than straight or gay couples. Such relationships also have a higher rate of breaking up. Look it up.
I used to live around the corner from a lesbian bar and OMFG the fights they would have right outside my window.... epic.
I wasn't disputing it, I just didn't want to go there.
See also, Lesbian Bed Death.
If P-town in the summer is any reliable indicator, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of mixing between gays and lesbians. Some, but not as a rule.
The shirtless twinks run around with the shirtless twinks and the lesbians go window shopping.
"In college, I was already complaining about my difficulties...communicating with lesbians. My mental...life was absorbed more and more with gay men, with whom I felt totally free. To this day, the dichotomy remains. I have met few lesbians with whom I can discourse for more than five minutes without hitting some tiresome barrier of resentment or ideology...over the decades, as I did my time, in frustrated boredom, in lesbian bars, trying with spectacular lack of success to make friends or just converse, I would end up gabbing for hours with some stray gay man. He might have dropped out of school at fourteen, but he had opinions, tastes, energy, and wit. Is there something innately different about the gay male brain? ...Answers will not soon be coming. But what I do know is that gay male consciousness, as I have experienced it, is stunningly expansive and exquisitely precise."
I just love how gunvermin types come up with these names for crimes. "Assault and Battery With Intent To Intimidate" - as opposed to a non-intimidating assault and battery? Last I checked, an assault is quite intimidating, unless you're talking about an assault on a rock.
Ah, OM, but what is the *intent*?
How dare you other the politically correct, you... you... you microagressor!
EXCUSE ME?!
Or you don't see it coming.
Well when I'm wrong I'm wrong. I said there was no way sharia law would ever be invoked in a US court, and damned if it hasn't happened. A judge threw out a case where a Muslim assaulted a man who insulted Mohammed, and said that the victim provoked the attack and that the 1st amendment doens't protect provocation.
http://news.yahoo.com/penn-jud.....00330.html
That shit is coming.
Its why Hitch, Bill Maher, Carlin, etc are right.
Religion must be ridiculed all the time - 24/7.
I know that kills 98% of the GOP platform but its true.
Whatever. Those whinny ass bitches wouldn't ridicule Islam in a million years. They are partisan hacks who make fun of people they know won't fight back. Cowardly pieces of shit like Maher are what is going to bring Sharia law.
Actually, I did a reasonable job taking Islam to task in my day.
You are the only one.
And the left and creatures like shrike hated you for it.
Bill Maher:
Am I a racist to feel alarmed by that? Because I am. And it's not because of the race, it's because of the religion. I don't have to apologize, do I, for not wanting the Western world to be taken over by Islam in 300 years? ? I should be alarmed, and I don't apologize for it.
Maher is a cultural supremecist like Pat Buchanan is (and me)
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bil.....ern-world/
Weak tea shrike, weak tea. So what, he doesn't welcome the Caliphate. That doesn't count as ridiculing Islam or in anyway approach the level of ridicule he levels at safe religion.
Fail. Try again.
http://www.businessinsider.com.....deo-2011-3
Maher tells Dem Koran "hate filled" trash.
I will give you that. So he has made one statement against Islam and about 100,000 against everything else.
But Maher doesn't acknowledge that Christianity allowed all his secular enlightened views to become dominant in our culture.
Those tools only ridicule Christians et al becasue they can get away with it. And you are correct, they are complete cowards when it comes to Judaism and Islam. Ridicule Judaism? Lawsuits out the yingyang. Ridicule Islam? Lose your head. Ridicule Christians - well that's easy, they just turn the other cheek so why not?
That's an oversimplification Restoras.
Ridicule Mormons and they will bake you cookies and tell you that Jesus loves you anyway - damn bastards!
Are the cookies any good?
They are if you like hot Mormon cookies.
You're a partisan idiot.
Bill Maher ridicules Islam all the time like he does all religion.
Sam Harris does as well. We all do.
Islam is shit - rivaled only by GOP/Christianity.
Bill Maher ridicules Islam all the time like he does all religion.
Citation? And no the voices in your head don't count. Link showing him doing that or shut the fuck up Shrike.
http://articles.businessinside.....n-religion
Try again shrike. Saying Muslims shouldn't kill people is not ridiculing the religion, only the behavior of a few nuts.
if Maher does do that, he's the only one. The left wets itself over Islam but has no issue lambasting Christianity and Judaism. Regularly. Seems to leave Buddhism and Hinduism alone. Then again, neither of those goes on regular rampages against the blasphemers.
Part of that is cultural, wareagle. Western atheists go particularly hard on Christianity because it's the dominant religion here. I suspect that Indian atheists go particularly hard on Hinduism. Etc...
^this, largely
Also, radical social reformers trash Christianity because it is an obstacle to reshaping Western societies (well, not so much in Europe anymore).
I suspect Indian atheists get killed by Indian Muslims or possibly Hindus, but that's just a guess.
Seems to leave Buddhism and Hinduism alone. Then again, neither of those goes on regular rampages against the blasphemers.
Pick up the Heike Monogatari for an enlightening read (if epic poetry is your cup of tea) as to what happens when Buddhists disagree about religion and politics.
leave Buddhism and Hinduism alone. Then again, neither of those goes on regular rampages against the blasphemers.
Study the interaction of Hindus and Muslims in India. It might change your mind.
There is no way in hell Christianity rivals Islam. Christianity 400 - 500 years ago sure, but Christianity today? Are you fucking kidding me?
I agree. Let's start with Judaism and see where it takes us.
why didn't I think of that? --smacks forehead--
Jew eat yet?
No. Jew?
That is a "great" story, full of wonderful tidbits, e.g.
Judge Mark Martin, an Iraq war veteran and a convert to Islam, threw the case out
another atheist, dressed as a Zombie Pope, was marching beside the Zombie Muhammad. No outraged Catholics attacked him.
Let me be clear.
Now I'm confused. Could it be that Ron Paul is right?
the victim provoked the attack and that the 1st amendment doens't protect provocation.
Ooohkay. That means that the 1A doesn't prevent the State from prosecuting you for "fighting words."
It doesn't mean whatever arrested development case actually assaults you gets a free pass.
What a moron.
We all know this is going to be overturned.
Maybe. And I would hope the judge loses his job over it.
I would hope the judge gets flogged.
Wait, are these hopes considered hate crimes?
Not unless its appealed. Which rarely happens when the prosecution loses a criminal case.
Wouldn't this be considered an acquittal? If so, it wouldn't be overturn-able.
You can't appeal the jury's finding of "not guilty". Anything the judge does, though, is (technically) appealable, I believe. Rarely if ever happens, though.
D'oh! Didn't RTFA. My bad.
Failure to correctly apply 1st Amendment doctrine of "fighting words" does not equal application of Sharia law. The judge is reported to have noted that the display would have been illegal in some countries, not that he was deeming it to have been illegal in the US.
The judge's secretary (clerk?) said he's not Muslim. I think he's a former Military Policeman who (according to what he told the complainant) acquired Deep Respect for Islam during his service abroad. He lectured the complainant on how offensive it is to Muslims to have their prophet portrayed as a zombie, and how in some Muslim countries this would entail a death sentence.
Right, but I'm OK with the judge talking about his Deep Respect for Islam. Course I would rather he had reached the right decision, but the stuff about Islam was just dicta, not the same as basing a holding on Sharia law.
"The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure."
Utter nonsense! The government has Top Men working on establishing those categories as we speak. Doubtless they will be successful!
You know who else tried to to break human beings into categories?
An anthropologist working on a taxonomy?
Melvil Dewey?
Us, and them
And after all we're only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.
Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who.
Up and down.
But in the end it's only round and round.
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried.
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside.
"I mean, they're not gunna kill ya, so if you give 'em a quick short,
sharp, shock, they won't do it again. Dig it? I mean he get off
lightly, 'cos I would've given him a thrashing - I only hit him once!
It was only a difference of opinion, but really...I mean good manners
don't cost nothing do they, eh?"
"The mere fact that someone is a member of the same class doesn't mean they could not be motivated by hatred for their very own group."
Reminds me of Chapelle's "Black White Supremacist" skit.
I have never laughed harder.
The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure.
Perhaps. However, the idea of trying to break down human spirit is catching on quite nicely.
See, I warned you people about lesbian street gangs running amuck, but did you listen?
Why is that so damned believable?
Because I'm just that good, John. Sorry, it was me.
John, for your viewing pleasure Switchblade Sisters which I just learned is aka The Jezebels. Heh.
The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure."
What about our high-paying jobs in the identity-politics industry?
It amuses me when gay men and gay women are lumped together. In my experience, the two groups don't like each other very much.
Truly, politics does produce strange bedfellows.
Yeah, I said all that upthread. It's OK, I'm notorious for posting before reading, too.
Guilt as charged.
But don't you agree that brilliant thoughts should be reinforced by repetition?
I can't speak for eveyone here but IMHO, brilliant thoughts should be reinforced by repetition.
Let me be clear.
Let me be clear.
Let me be clear.
Well, when you put it that way....
Thx
It is not unusual for state of mind to be a factor in determining punishment in a criminal case. If I kill somebody, exactly why I did it determines whether I get charged with first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter, or involunatary manslaughter. Hate crime statues are merely part of this same equation.
criminal "state of mind" = fearing for one's own safety, plotting the forcible demise of another person in advance, being responsible for injury to another because of inattention or negligence, etc.
hate crime "state of mind" = delves into whether a crime was committed because of a particular, politically unapproved attitude
totally different concepts
If a person is tried for first degree murder, the question is, "Did the defendant plan ahead of time to kill the victim and carry the plan out?" "Hate crime" statues attempt to punish on the basis of why the murderer wanted to kill the victim and defines some reasons to plot and kill another person as worse than others. Naturally, double standards are applied making "hate crime" just an excuse for applying the law differently to different classes of people, a politically retrograde concept.
I moved in with a sodemite so I could get free healthcare.
The problem with hate crimes...