Sativex: Fast for Patients, Slow for Potheads
A Scientific American article about Sativex, a cannabis extract spray that the FDA may approve for treatment of cancer pain after clinical trials are completed in 2014 or so, assures us (citing "experts") that the product has "little potential for abuse":
Because the drug is delivered through ingestion, rather than smoking, it would take much longer to have an effect — at least an hour, compared with the minutes it takes to get high after smoking marijuana, said Margaret Haney, a professor of clinical neurobiology at Columbia University. This means drug users seeking a high would be less likely to abuse it. "Smoking is a really effective way to get a chemical into the brain," Haney said. The mouth spray "is a far safer administration," she said.
Actually, Sativex, which contains delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol (CBD), is sprayed under the tongue or on the inside of the cheek and is meant to be absorbed through the mucous membranes of the mouth. Hence it has a faster onset of action than Marinol, a capsule containing synthetic THC that was approved by the FDA in 1985. "Following administration of Sativex (four sprays)," says Drugs.com, "both THC and CBD are absorbed fairly rapidly and appear in the plasma within 15 minutes after single oromucosal administration." By comparison, the effects of Marinol, which is absorbed by the gastrointestinal system, are felt after 30 minutes to an hour—similar to the lag for swallowed cannabis. Faster action is one of Sativex's advantages over Marinol, both because patients feel relief sooner and because they can more easily titrate their doses, taking an additional spray after 15 minutes or so if the initial dose proves inadequate. They can also avoid taking too much, which is hard when you swallow a standardized dose whose full effects may not be felt for hours. (A related issue with Marinol: It is processed by the liver, producing a THC variant that may compound any unpleasant psychoactive effects.) Sativex's manufacturer, GW Pharmaceuticals, brags that "the spray is quickly absorbed through the oral mucosa, is easy to use for patients and enables them to optimally adjust their dosage."
While it's still true that smoking (or vaporizing) cannabis delivers THC and other active ingredients faster than spraying an extract in your mouth, people have been known to "abuse" pot cookies and brownies, which make impatient cannabis consumers wait substantially longer for a buzz than Sativex does. A more plausible reason why Sativex probably won't attract many recreational users: Why go to the trouble of obtaining an expensive prescription drug when you can get more bang for your buck from the original plant? But that question also applies to patients, especially since vaporization, like an oral spray, avoids the hazards of smoking. Another possible advantage of marijuana is that its components may have a synergistic effect that can't be replicated by one or two ingredients. Not surprisingly, GW Pharmaceuticals, as channeled by Scientific American, sees that feature as a bug:
While marijuana is a hodgepodge of about 64 different substances, Sativex is composed mainly of two ingredients: THC and another cannabinoid called CBD. The latter component is thought to ameliorate some of the side effects of THC, including the high that marijuana users feel.
Notice that the "high," an elevation of mood that seriously ill people might actually welcome, is treated as an unwanted side effect. And how does GW Pharmaceuticals know that THC and CBD entirely account for marijuana's beneficial effects? Unimed, Marinol's manufacturer, thought THC was all that patients needed.
In terms of marketing the drug to bureaucrats, however, GW Pharmaceuticals seems to know what it's doing. So far it has won approval of Sativex in the U.K., Spain, Germany, Denmark, New Zealand, and Canada for treatment of neuropathic pain and spasticity caused by multiple sclerosis. Although the distinctions drawn by the company may be be puzzling, they show how a disreputable drug can be transformed into a respectable one: emphasize isolated chemicals instead of raw plant matter, claim the product acts quickly enough to be better than the competition but not so quickly that it would appeal to recreational users, and never admit that patients might enjoy taking it.
Previous coverage of Sativex here.
[Thanks to Richard Cowan for the tip.]
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But what if you spray it in an attacker's eye? Could this be a non painful alternative to pepper spray?
What if cops, then, instead of tasers used this on crowds- getting them super stoned in order to make them more likely to go along with orders.
(I know that's not how this works, but it would be funny.)
I believe Mel Brooks had that idea first. Although it was the people escaping from the Roman legionaires who used that method.
So, PROOF that it would be actually funny.
Bi or want to find people having the same sexual orientation?---datebi*cO'm--- is a safe and free site for you.
Notice that the "high," an elevation of mood that seriously ill people might actually welcome, is treated as an unwanted side effect.
Puritans do not seek pleasure through chemical means. That is a sin.
I noticed.
The only drug that they need is god.
Baptists don't have sex standing up because they wouldn't want someone to think they were dancing.
That was the first "adult" sex joke I ever heard...I remember it because it took my about 5 minutes to get my mom to tell me what she was giggling about.
Notice that the "high," an elevation of mood that seriously ill people might actually welcome, is treated as an unwanted side effect.
It's not real medicine if it doesn't give you explosive diarrhea.
Does it count if it's just loose stool?
While I have read and heard about the benefits of vaporizers, the cheap one that I tried didn't do shit for me. Was it because it was cheap? What is the commentariat's opinion of vaporizers? Am I simply psychologically addicted to coughing my head off?
Was it the kind with the ceramic test tube, or did it have a fan and fill up a bag?
He's not talking about your butt sex toys, NutraSweet.
That's actually pretty funny. For you.
That would be a compliment if it didn't come from you.
Was it the kind with the ceramic test tube, or did it have a fan and fill up a bag?
It was a glass globe over the element with a plastic tube attached. The weed was bricked up Mexican schwag, so that was probably a big part of it. Smoking it out of the bong did the trick, but the vaporizer seemed like a waste.
Might not have been the right temperature, might not have been ground/crumbled enough, may have been packed too tight (needs to have room for hot air to circulate). I gave up on my cheap vape because I wondered what interesting and potentially toxic elements the Chinese had used to make it - another problem with the WOD, it's not like Consumer Reports reviews such things.
My experience with my vaporizer has been that you need a higher quality weed for it to work well. Part of the "buzz" from smoking is caused by the smoke itself accompanied by the decrease of oxygen to the brain as you hold it in your lungs.
The vape doesn't have that effect, so you need product good enough that the pure chemicals will do the trick. Weed has become so debased that it's actually hard to find good stuff (at an affordable price).
I thought the opposite was true, with all the panic recently about moderm mj being more potent.
It just has a bunch more chemicals, or in some cases is cut with other items, most of which the vape doesn't bring out the way burning it would.
Most of the stuff I find around here is shitty Mexican bud, nothing of quality.
Depending where you are, it's the mid-level pot that has been squeezed out. It's either expensive boutique or bricked ditch weed smuggled in from Mexico.
"Gov't action destroying the American Middle Class weed."
I can't speak to why yours didn't work so well...but I can say with authority that there are basically two products to consider.
At the high-end, a 'Volcano' which fills up a bag like our sweet friend alluded to. This is probably the least subtle thing in the world though, so be sure to keep it safe and out of sight.
The second is discreet products, and the 'MFLB' leads here. It is roughly the size of a deck of cards and runs on a AA battery. I've seen people hide them inside of a fountain soda cup, and inhale from the straw.
I used to pack the bat of my dugout and place it in with my cigs. Then I'd pull it out, take a hit, casually put it back in and pull out a smoke while holding the hit (you'd have to be paying attention to notice), light the tobacco, and exhale.
Outdoors of course.
Even if anyone smelled it, all they'd see is a tobacco cigarette.
I'm a roll-your-own smoker, so I just mix in some shake (or hash whenever it's available, around here that isn't often, but it works so much better and doesn't smell so pot-like).
Using this method I've walked around major cities and amusement parks without anyone noticing and if they did smell it, they had no idea where it came from.
I later started rolling my own, and would often pack a little into the tip of one of them.
Now I smoke neither.
I would still smoke the mj on occasion except that I'm looking for a new employer, and just to be on the safe side I'm keeping my urine free of cannibaniods.
Woo hoo! Just got a callback from a prospective new employer!
Maybe I'll get a real job that gives me shit to do so I don't have to pass my time here!
Yaaaaaaaaaaay!
good luck!
I own a Volcano and can say from experience that it works quite well. But you will need decent bud to smoke, the mex crap won't cut it, and I seem to waste a bit more vaping... On the plus side it's very easy on the lungs and you can dial in your high by adjusting the vape temperature. If you feel like getting ripped crank up the temp (less healthy for the lungs) or if you're looking for a light buzz turn it down. Luckily living in California gives me access to some of the best MJ on earth! Unfortunately I'm forced to live around other Californians, some of the stupist fucktards on earth.
The post-vaporizer product can be hot or cold extracted in alcohol.
You're my new hero. For providing that information, I'm dumping Epi and blowing you from now on, instead.
I doesn't make for a strong extraction, and the hot method is probably the best.
Also, a drier and more crumbled (but not ground) load works better in a vaporizer.
Hey Beavis... he said "load". Hehehehehehehehe
What?!? YOU FUCKING WHORE.
access to some of the best MJ..some of the stupist fucktards
I know correlation =/= causation
I'm just sayin.
I shared a suite in Las Vegas on New Years Eve with some friends who brought along their vaporizer. I no longer partake of illicit plant matter, but my observation is that it works very well. My friends, by no means rookies to weed, were pretty fucking stoned. I went to a party at their house two weeks ago, they were in the living room giving the vaporizer a serious workout. For the six hours I was there, some of those folks never got off the couch once. I'm guessing the vaporizer works real good.
Threadjack
Don Cornelius is hosting Soul Train in the Sky
". . .and you can bet your last money, it's all gonna be a stone gas, honey! I'm Don Cornelius, and as always in parting, we wish you love, peace and soul!"
RIP, soul brother.
I learned all my best dance moves from watching Soul Train. So much better than American Bandstand.
he was a pretty good on-the-fly interviewer on stage too. i caught some vintage Soul Train the other day w/ some random woman-led group and they started rapping on about music producers they knew and it was like he forgot the cameras were on him. it was very organic and listenable.
I like to think he's doing The Hustle with Jesus now.
Jesus used to do the hustle with the duskier races, but since he got mugged once, he's gone "tough on crime".
Little known fact: Jesus was in SC for the Republican debates and LED the boos when Ron Paul mentioned the Golden Rule.
So does anyone know what happens if you squirt this shit in your eyes or mainline it like heroine? My point is, if there is potential for abuse, then people will find a way to abuse it. Of course this stuff is bound to be expensive which will pretty much guarantee that your average teenager will never even see it, but that won't stop the government from trying to ban it 10 years down the road in order to "protect the children."
Hey RedDragon. Just curious, does the 6009 in your handle represent the Taijitu?
No, it's 69 with pillows. It is my old gaming handle from back in the day when I had time to waste.
As it is an alcohol tincture, I imagine both of those routes would be very uncomfortable.
This is going to be a scheduled, prescription drug. There are plenty of things far more dangerous and just as appealing already out there. I don't see this getting banned later if it is approved.
A marijuana tincture? You mean it took millions of dollars in research and God knows how many scientists just to make some Green Dragon?
Sounds like a scam to me.
TOP. MEN.
Jacob, what's with the term, "Potheads?" Something like 20 Million Americans use marijuana every year. I doubt you would call everyone who drinks alcohol a "wino" or a "drunk." Let's be polite to each other. We're all Americans; we all want a great America; let's show respect for each other.
decent point.
Concern troll is concerned, people. This may be just the prompting we need to start showing respect for a Great America around here. About fucking time.
Not sure if your handle is sarcastic or not, but I find it interesting (if it isn't) that you'd go out of your way to defend people not generally embraced by conservative christians.
Many conservative Christians are closet potheads.
Don't use that word! It's microaggressive and othering!
"Dopers" is the preferred term.
Does anyone actually believe that the FDA is anything but a front to protect the pharmaceutical companies' profits? This is just pathetic.
Excellent point. If Cannabis were legal, then patients (and recreational users) could grow it in their garden for the cost of water and fertilizer and have all they could possibly need.
For those who prefer to just buy it, I would guess the cost of the cannabis (minus sin taxes) would be on the order of $10 per pound.
For anything good, I think you are still talking hundreds per pound. While the hemp plant is extremely easy to grow, high quality pot is a whole different story and is quite labor intensive (or so I've been told).
Most of the labor is concealment. Once you sex the plants, indoor or hothouse (the best DIY marijuana) cultivation is basically water and fertilizer.
I look forward to the 2022 American Horticultural Society seed exchange.
I own some farm land. Boutique marijuana farmer sounds like a nice small business. Grow me a ponytail and everything.
That is an awesome quit your real job and mess around occupation. You could go to farmer's markets, and set up schmancy tastings on site like at a winery.
"Excuse me, is your Kush organic?"
Eventually when you got big enough and if you didn't mind dealing with customers (a big "if" when you are a crotchety misanthropic libertarian) you could open a cozy little cafe/bar and it would be a hip weekend destination in the quaint countryside. Shit, I want in on this action.
SugarFree is clearly much more of the boobytrap-the-field type of dope farmer than an organic fair-trade type douche who sells to yuppies. I can't believe I had to explain this to you.
He's too busy making gourmet grilled cheese sandwiches, growing a pony tail and playing footsie with Episiarch to play 'Copperhead Road guy'. Dicklord.
Grilled cheese sandwiches can be booby-trapped too, you gaping, hemmoroidal asshole.
Hey - the hemorrhoids are almost gone now that I started charging for buttsex. Dicklord.
I know, and you priced me out of the market. Thanks, gaywad.
The wife could run the front of the place, she likes people... I'll be in the back making exotic grilled cheese sandwiches: Morbier, cashew butter and fig jam; taleggio and tapenade; Humboldt Fog and sweet onion jam.
Morbier, cashew butter and fig jam
You had me at "cashew butter", and then lost me at "fig jam".
Are substitutions allowed? Am I already making you hate your prospective customers?
No substitutions!
How about strawberry bacon preserves?
i just don't dig cheese & fruit.
oh, so, 1 taleggio and tapenade, pls.
you could open a cozy little cafe/bar and it would be a hip weekend destination in the quaint countryside.
bed'n'breakfast.
"cultivation is basically water and fertilizer."
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA.
No.
Junk? Yeah.
GOOD stuff?
No.
Farm laborers won't be making $100K per year in a legalized system.
it's gardening, man. like the craft brew market, the craft mj market will thrive and we'll get world-class stuff at very affordable prices. even after getting the plant geneticists involved, it won't matter. plant geneticist post-docs get paid crap- that labor input is not significant.
Exactly. Monsanto et al. will be pumping out specialized seeds at good prices and farmers will take the very small margins they can get. Consumer win, big time.
Once you sex the plants
I can't even. It's too easy.
Are hydroponics popular here? In the BC bud world it seems they are almost always used.
No, most of it is grown in the state parks around here. Which makes for some hit or miss offerings.
I have seen this opinion bantied about for a long time. I have no experience growing cannabis, but I do have experience with Tobacco, which is fairly labor intensive. Tobacco sells for about $5 per pound at the wholesale level.
I doubt cannabis is much harder to grow than Tobacco. Hundreds of dollars per pound is out of the question in my mind. There would probably be boutique stuff that commands outrageous prices from the effete idiot crowd, but I would expect high grade cannabis to be between 5 and ten dollars per pound at the wholesale level.
In a free market, yes.
However if it were legalized today, through licensing and permitting and regulatory compliance all the other competition killing devices employed by government, I'm sure the price would not come down much from what they're currently getting for the medical stuff.
My comment assumes a free market.
We haven't seen one of those in a while, if ever.
look at the cost of Tobacco, even in the gamed market we have.
Tobacco has established players that existed long before the regulatory state started taking steroids.
And in that market I imagine entry is next to impossible.
Medical mj is the current established market, and they're not going to lose their current profit margin if the people to whom they give campaign contributions have anything to say about it.
*legal* market
If anybody is gonna take a piece of the pie in cannabis market it will be the government. The MM guys are peasants.
Has anyone ever done a story on the price difference between alcohol before & during Prohibition?
should read: "...done research..."
One day, I will learn English.
Prohibition added an average premium of 75%. But underground economies are always difficult to track.
Warburton, Clark. The Economic Results of Prohibition. New York: Columbia University Press, 1932.
Also, the murder rate plunged in 1933 and didn't rise to previous levels until the Drug War heated up in the late 60s.
Miron, Jeffrey A. "Violence and the U.S. Prohibitions of Drugs and Alcohol," American Law and Economics Review 1-2 (1999): 78-114.
Those are pretty damning statistics.
Tobacco (the good stuff) is much harder to grow than marijuana.
Well, if my insurance covers this then it would basically be free, but the weed in my backyard is also almost free (other than the miracle-gro).
Depends on the drug, I guess. That strategy didn't work for Bayer when they marketed Heroin?
What about extract from coca leaves?
You mean like tea?
Yeah. Tea made with gasoline and sulphuric acid.
There's Coca wine. Also, the aforementioned cough drops.
I like that it's marketed for sleeplessness. "Fuck, I can't sleep. I'd better drink some more cocaine booze."
And if that doesn't work, have a cough drop.
Heroin was marketed by Bayer as a non-addictive cough suppressant. It did work as a cough suppressant, anyway.
Last I heard, It's still in use in England as such.
threadjack: Indiana Senate approves RTW bill...
http://www.reuters.com/article.....8920120201
Bill would allow workers at unionized businesses to avoid paying union dues so naturally it's a race to bottomz oh noezzzz according to the Dems.
Dipshit UAW protesters are "occupying" the Super Bowl week festivities. They are chanting on a set of NFL Network coverage. Last time I was visiting my folks in Indiana, we drove by the UAW hall and I noticed the county Democratic headquarters were located there as well. Go figure?
Good. Maybe having a ton of businesses go across the border will help convince the idiots in Columbus to do this, too.
lol, pot heads are jsut cool liek that dude. Wow.
http://www.puter-privacy.tk
You're not heeding the politics behind the drugs
My understanding is that THC alone gives a harsh high that users generally dislike, and that you need CBD to mellow it.
I read an article on Marinol (when it was being tested), and a lot of the users complained about that.
I have been on Marinol for years and have never had issue with it, low does between 2.5 5Mg is best, going above 10-15Mg does get sketchy and at that does its definitely a harsh buzz - overly euphoric in a bad why. When using the natural product I never feel like this, even when using large amounts of KGB in bong or vape. Marinol or the original works wonders for chronic pain, nothing better in my book and far safer than any OTC or Schedule II / III.
Seems appropriate:
http://news.yahoo.com/pot-arre.....52393.html
Glancing at the patent behind Sativex it seems clear that it's a fancy mix of high-CBD and high-THC tinctures, with a non-trivial content of other cannabinoids, and probably terpenes as well.
"BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
In PCT/GB02/00620 the applicant discloses a method of preparing a herbal drug extract (botanical drug substance) from medicinal cannabis. The process comprises: 1. a heating step to decarboxylate the acid form of the cannabinoids to theirneutral form; 2. a first extraction with a specified volume of liquid carbon dioxide for 6 8 hours; and 3. a step to reduce the proportion of non-target materials, referred to as winterisation, which step precipitates out waxes.
More specifically, PCT/GB02/00620 describes a process wherein: step 1 comprises heating chopped cannabis (2 3 mm) at 100 150? C. for sufficient time to allow decarboxylation; step 2 comprises CO2 extraction using: a) a coarse powder(the particles are passed through a 3 mm mesh); b) a packing density of 0.3; and c) supercritical conditions of 600 bar at 35? C. for 4 hours, although other combinations of temp and pressure ranging from 10 35? C. and 60 600 bar (bothsuper critical and sub critical conditions) could, it is acknowledged, be used; and step 3 comprises conducting an ethanolic precipitation at -20? C. for 24 hours and removing the waxy material by filtration.
The supercritical method disclosed in PCT/GB02/00620 produced: a) a high THC extract containing: 60% THC (?9-tetrahydrocannabinol) 1 2% CBD (cannabidiol) 4 5% other minor cannabinoids including CBN (cannabinol) (Quantative yields were9% wt/wt based on dry weight of medicinal cannabis); and b) a high CBD extract containing: 60% CBD 4% THC 2% other cannabinoids (Quantative yields were 9% wt/wt based on dry weight of medicinal cannabis)."
http://www.patentstorm.us/pate.....ltext.html
...and there's this. They don't count terpenes, which probably means they can legally pretend they're not in there in their quest to distinguish their fancy tincture from what people get at dispensaries:
"The non-cannabinoid components that make up the ballast portion of the BDS include hydrocarbon and triglyceride waxes, plant pigments and terpenes. These are common components of many other extracts of medicinal plants and are considered to be of little toxicological and pharmacological significance. The range of other components present is wide but they are generally present in only small quantities.
The quantity of ballast is reduced by the winterisation process which precipitates the waxes. The ballast materials are considered to be a diluent of the active constituents and are not assayed or controlled."
Jesus, they sure are desperate to keep people from getting high!
I'm making my own oil, I don't need some Big Pharma corp. to do it! Why take this herb away from the masses when it can do so much? It's all about the money and control.People, stand-up and tell the government to stand down. Big pharma has made billions upon billions off our backs, keeping us sick and drugged out! This has to end.
Free the medicine, fiber, and food! Hemp, hemp, hooray...
Nice read, the isolation of certain cannabinoids comes purely from selecting specific chemotypes of the plant. The make two extracts from two plants, one that produces THC in abundance and the other CBD - both samples you will find i the wild. These are then blended to Dr Geoffrey Guys liking and by measuring how much of each he can accurately determine the mg per THC and CBD that the alcohol tincture has. This medicine was available all over the world less than 100 years ago but was prohitted under drug laws that protected the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industry. Amazing how things come around full circle. THC and CBDs benefits and properties can be massively altered by terpines also found in the plant that grow naturally along side THC and CBD in the gland heads and all of the other cannabinids like CBG CBGb CBN THCV CBC and so on. Nature knows best. GW have simply got a UK Government to cultivate 300 tonnes of cannabis a year while everyone else gets sent to prison.
rather than smoking, it would take much longer to have an effect ? at least an hour, compared with the minutes it takes to get high after smoking marijuana, said Margaret Haney, a professor of clinical neurobiology at Columbia University. This means drug users seeking a
has won approval of Sativex in the U.K., Spain, Germany, Denmark, New Zealand, and Canada for treatment of neuropathic pain and spasticity caused by multiple sclerosis. Although the distinctions drawn by the company may be be puzzling, they show how a disreputable
ining synthetic THC that was approved by the FDA in 1985. "Following administration of Sativex (four sprays)," says Drugs.com, "both THC and CBD are absorbed fairly rapidly and appea