Peter Schiff vs. Cornell West on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360

"If they really want a bright future for this country, it's capitalism that will provide it, not government."

That's what Peter Schiff told Princeton University Professor Cornell West last night in a heated debate on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360. They were discussing Schiff's recent Reason.tv appearance, in which he engaged protestors at Occupy Wall Street with a sign that read, "I Am the 1%, Let's Talk."

Here's the original video.

Go to Reason.tv for HD, iPod and audio versions of this video and subscribe to Reason.tv's Youtube channel to receive automatic notification when new material goes live

Comments

[Troy]

...and Judge Napalitano makes John Stewart look like a stupid douche.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....63521.html

[Mainer]

thanks for my first visit to huffingtonpost. the comments there on this story, wow....i just learned that libertarians don't want any rules (i already knew we are selfish)

[Troy]

No kidding. These fucking liberal idiots seem to think that when we say we want smaller government that that means we want government. And it is obvious from the comments that being free, and being responsible for your own decisions and not having someone one tell you what to do is a scary concept.

[Troy]

I meant to say that when we want smaller government, that means NO government.

[Episiarch]

I want no government.

[Mango Punch]

I wouldn't want to debate cornell west.

[chris]

Mango Punch|10.28.11 @ 1:24PM|#

I wouldn't want to debate cornell west.

Why?

[River Tam]

*See his hair, screams in terror*

[Live Free or Diet]

Two by two, hands of blue!

[WWNGD?]

You just hate roads.

[poetry]

drink

[WTF]

Make it a double!

[poetry]

drink

[anarch]

not having someone one tell you what to do is a scary concept.

Would trick-or-treating as Jefferson be over the top?

[RoboCain]

Only if you tried using it to pick up black women.

[Grouper]

It may just be because I'm a fucking liberal idiot but where did John Stewart look like a stupid douche exactly? He made a lot more sense to me than that freedom spooging judgeman.

Competition doesn't always improve things. The healthcare market is not the coffee market. The police market is not the computer market. Sometimes, a monopoly controlled by democratic forces is better conduice to a just society than 10 firms controlled by market forces. Contrary to your dogmatic beliefs, this shit is backed up by a VERY WIDE RANGE OF LOGICAL RESEARCH and shit that has happened in the past.

I love the free market, I think its great! Hey, I also like the government. I don't think it is quite as efficient as the free market in most areas, but it does some really good stuff too. I guess I'm full of shit.

Jesus Christ REASON commenters survive on the most absolute, extreme bullshit.

P.S. I can't stand Tim Cavanuagh's writing or Peter Schiff's stupid fucking face.

[Apatheist]

Shorter Grouper: You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded.

[Live Free or Diet]

Competition doesn't always improve things.

No? If you have no competition, "ain't broke, don't fix it" generally prevails. If somebody's threatening to eat your lunch, you have a tendency to figure out how to keep your customers!

Medicine doesn't respond to market forces? Have you seen prescription prices at Walmart lately? Their competitors dropped prices too.

Without a free market in medicine you end up with absurdities like Canada's Neonatal wait times: 10 months! No kidding, look it up. They're shipping 3rd trimester women between provinces and to the US at a time when Canada isn't even maintaining a replacement birthrate.

[Another Phil]

What's the point of coming to a site and calling the people you disagree with a bunch of assholes? You're not accomplishing anything constructive and it's childish behavior.

P.S. You don't like the free market. You like some variant of government-chained-and-regulated market. You're not only abrasive and unpleasant, you're a transparent liar.

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

I know this may shock a lot of you, but I totally agree with some of what grouper said above.

Especially this statement: "I guess I'm full of shit."

As succinct a statement rarely graces the pages of the intertubes.

[Grouper]

Abrasive and unpleasant? This place is a circle jerk for unpleasant and abrasive individuals who don't do anything constructive. Don't presume to lecture about behavior in the Reason comments area. I like some libertarian material, even the economic stuff. But some of you guys are so off the grid with your basic construction of concepts and definitions that the only thing to do for fun is to deride you.

[Banjos]

Yes we are abrasive and as unpleasant as they come, but the difference between you and us is that we actually explain why we believe what we believe and back it up with clear logic and/or facts. You don't. I mean come the fuck on, you could at least give us some examples of how we are "so off the grid with your basic construction of concepts and definitions". But you won't, because you are completely full of shit and are incapable of articulating any real argument. All you got is "youz guys are craaaazay". Come back when you actually have something to say, in the meantime please lurk, read and learn.

[BelowTheRim]

Get more specific Grouper...then talk to me about constructive.

Being overly vague doesn't make you sounds smart. You aren't a singer songwriter afterall.

Or are you?

[Michael J Green]

Contrary to your dogmatic beliefs, this shit is backed up by a VERY WIDE RANGE OF LOGICAL RESEARCH and shit that has happened in the past.

Do you concede that the opposing, libertarian argument is also backed up by a wide range of logical research and historical data? You're not dogmatic either, right?

[Audrey the Liberal]

These fucking liberal idiots seem to think that when we say we want smaller government that that means we want government

I'm a liberal and I would never say that.

[rts]

This is from a "HuffPo Superuser":

Libertaria?ns promote the idea that virtue lies in anarchy and if you can beat someone to death and take their stuff you have every right to do so, whereever and whenever you can.

Yes... beating people to death to take their stuff is completely congruent with the non-aggression principle. Thanks for clearing that up.

[robc]

He was wrong way before that. Libertarians oppose anarchy. That is why we are libertarians and not ancaps.

[ABC]

AnCap, Voluntaryist, whatever you might call it is the logical extension of the NAP.

[robc]

I dont disagree, but that still doesnt make an ancap a libertariain.

[chris]

Sure I may be for limited government in theory, and that AnCaps answers do not seem sufficient, but as a practical matter, I have little doubt that government has gone bust, and will not be salvageable once its authority is diminished. The spending explosion we see is like pales of water to keep a doomed ship afloat. It cannot be sustained. So at least, prepare for the eventual fall. Don't kid your selves people, canning and hunting are great skills to know even in the best of times, and this ain't the best of times.

[Live Free or Diet]

Don't kid your selves people, canning and hunting are great skills to know even in the best of times, and this ain't the best of times.

Though never a Boy Scout, I believe in being prepared. If the world goes along as it should 99% of the time, that's still an average of 3 1/2 days a year of power outages, snow-closed roads or whatever else.

But most of us don't live in the countryside now. Hunting as preparedness? One more tool, but it's not what it was for our grandparents. Please don't make Survivorman your skill and equipment set in Suburbia. More than ever, man lives by his production. You'll have to figure out how to produce what you need. Best figure it out and test it ahead of time, in case you're right about what's coming.

[chris]

You may ask, 'almost every society has had some form of government, and their existence was concurrent and sustained, and our problems are what they are, but why would you assume that they equate to a non sustainable government?'

Glad you asked. I wouldn't want to be like those trolls who talk to themselves.

Government through out human history has relied on an effective concentration of power that allowed them to be sustained through efficient plunder. This concentration of power still exist, but its sustainability takes a magnitude of resources far greater than it had in previous generations. The modern state has developed means to deal with this, such as monetizing debt. But obviously, that solution has hit a wall. There are no other solutions forthcoming .

[Audrey the Liberal]

He was wrong way before that. Libertarians oppose anarchy. That is why we are libertarians and not ancaps.

I myself am caught between minarchism and anarchism.

[rts]

Ditto.

[Another Phil]

I feel your pain. I'm a minarchist. I think a legitimate government is one that is strictly limited to protecting individual rights. On the other hand, I believe that power seekers will always try to commandeer government to legalize their plunder. I also think it is incredibly naive to believe that anarchy could exist for long without power struggles resulting in a de facto government.

[Mike E]

Exactly.

[DesigNate]

Shhhh! You can't go talking about protecting individual rights and shit like that. You will summon White Indian and he will shit all over the entire comment section and then this thread will reach 900 like the Michael Moore thread did.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice to see that Big Strawman enjoys full employment.

[Another Phil]

Libertaria?ns promote the idea that virtue lies in anarchy and if you can beat someone to death and take their stuff you have every right to do so, whereever and whenever you can.

All liberals are child molesters. If no children are available, they will fuck sheep, or goats, but mostly just sheep. I don't understand this because goats that have been socialized from a young age are much friendlier than sheep. But I digress.... Liberals are in favor of leprosy, testicular cancer and tick-borne parasites. Liberals smell like cat urine and vomit, and they kill kittens just for fun.

[Appalachian Australian]

I have no idea how Radley Balko doesn't lose his mind over there.

[robc]

The paycheck must be hella good.

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

Well, since "over there" isn't a place, I'm sure he does just fine filing his articles from his compound.

Just because then reason writers all live in a dormitory*, share meals in the cafeteria and shower together doesn't mean every website works that way.

*I hear Welch and Gillespie are the coolest RA's of all time. Just as Riggs. He rarely makes it to his 9 am writing class on time.

[RoboCain]

Are they co-ed showers?

[Chatroom Crank]

Radley has seemed to embraced his inner lefty since crossing over.

[John]

They always do don't they? Just once I would like to see a Reason writer get more Libertarian after leaving the magazine. I guess that happened with Postrel. But not anyone else.

[oncogenesis]

WTF are you talking about? Go read his personal blog. He's still libertarian.

[Audrey the Liberal]

John thinks everybody and anybody who once said something bad about Sarah Palin is a "leftie".

[poetry]

drink

[Zeb]

You think? I don't read the Agitator as much as I used to, but he still seems pretty solidly libertarian.

[Audrey the Liberal]

I have no idea how Radley Balko doesn't lose his mind over there.

Because heaven forbid he do something other then preaching to the choir. Go God, he might, *gasp* help convince some of those yucky atheist urbanites the desirability of a free-market economy. We can't have that now.

[Audrey the Liberal]

I meant to type "Good God". Sorry.

[BelowTheRim]

Appalachian Australian I have been wondering the same thing for quite a while now.

[Mike]

Apparently we all live in Somalia.

[John]

Somalian Road Corporation. Best handle ever.

[CrackertyAssCracker]

It's good to know I've accomplished something in life. I invented that shit.

http://reason.com/blog/2011/02.....me-for-exc

[Michael]

Ah, yes....b-b-but ROADS!!!!!

I will always hold dear to my heart the left's insistence that without government all of humanity would be staring down at the unbroken ground in hopeless befuddlement wondering how the fuck to get from point A to point B.

[Appalachian Australian]

And at the same time, leftists will complain that government subsidies for roads have resulted in "unsustainable" car-dependent lifestyles, obesity, lack of access to transportation for the poor/disabled, blah blah blah.

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

Goddammit, Michael. Couldn't you have mentioned Somalia at least once? I'm fucking thirsty.

[robc]

This probably isnt original, but I realized the other day that without government involvement roads would come in 3 forms:

1. Neighborhood roads handle by locals/neighborhood association.

2. Turnpikes. Fast roads with tolls for long distance travel.

3. Free public roads. These would be the roads with all the commercial districts and etc and would work like TV. Free to drive on but you are bombarded with advertising. While it would be hard to transition to it now, I would imaging the road owner would also own the commercial property along each side and rent it out.

"Drive a quality ACME road to get to quality ACME commercial properties."

[Science Fiction Novels...]

...come in 3 forms too. All wonderful fantasy to debate.

[JD the elder]

1. Neighborhood roads handle by locals/neighborhood association.

That's probably entirely workable. In New York City (and possibly other places as well) sidewalks are privately owned and are maintained by the property owner. Despite the assertions of some loons that if everything were privatized, then owners would charge you for using their road, or wouldn't let people with the wrong skin color use their road, or would just plain fail to maintain it, none of those have happened, and the sidewalks in NYC are generally in at least as good a condition as the streets. Can't see why that wouldn't work for the road in front of a house or business as well.

[WTF]

Holy shit, the comments are priceless:

All men are not born with the same rights, our government supplies the rights we enjoy. we must fight for and defend them by being a part of that government?.

Amazingly, this was apparently not a spoof.

[Old Mexican]

Re: WTF,

That comment was so Tony-esque, so question-begging... Made me wonder.

[WTF]

Actually, I have to admit Tony usually isn't quite that idiotic. Almost makes me appreciate some of our trolls. Almost.

[John]

I always tell people Tony and MNG are smart liberals. If you don't believe me, go read the comments at Huffpo or Slate where average liberals hang out. The stupidity is just awe inspiring.

[mr simple]

Or just listen to some of them try to argue with Peter Schiff in that video.

[Zeb]

That's why I don't generally think of those two as trolls. Especially MNG. He can be a dick sometimes, but honestly, if all liberals were like him, we'd be doing pretty well.

[WTF]

He can be a dick sometimes

Sometimes? He revels in being a dick. But yeah, he is actually an intelligent leftist compared to what I saw at Huffpo.

[John]

MNG is not a troll. He is just another Joe Boyle. Everything is great until he starts losing an argument. Then he turns into a dick.

And tony will occasionally make a good point. And you can never tell what is him and what is sock puppeting.

[Joe M]

Everything is great until he starts losing an argument. Then he turns into a dick.

This.

[Another Phil]

Tony is not smart at all. Every argument he puts forth is bare assertion based on unthinking emotion. MNG is a smart liberal. He often like being an annoying contrarian, but he's an intelligent guy. And I hear he makes lots of money 🙂

[me/dwc]

I know when I came out of college I was convinced of the virtue of collectivism and socialism and used words like "bourgeoisie" and believed in the socialist dictum of "from each according to his ability..." ans so on. To someone who is 19 or 20 all that stuff sounds incredibly appealing and makes some sort of ethical sense on its surface. I think most people come out of college indoctrinated with the joys of collectivism.

Like many, I came to realize that freedom is the road to human society and anything else leads to tyranny. None of that means that I think people should not help each other or that altruism is not a good thing. For the most part people are extremely generous. Look at every single horrible disaster that happens anywhere in the world. Invariably many millions of dollars pour in from donations and this from people who are nearly taxed to death by a government intent on doing social engineering with their money.

[me/dwc]

I meant "humane society".

[kinnath]

I see this, and I recognize the A- student (grade inflation makes a C+ student an A- these days) who is just bright enough to regurgitate the bullshit the teacher spews without ever understanding it let alone recoginizing that it bullshit.

[Anonymous Coward]

our government supplies the rights we enjoy.

"Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato", you say?

[WE NEED GOVERNMENT...]

...to protect our [insert] rights!

Libertarians say that all the time.

How's that any different than the liberals embracing government?

[fish]

Libertarians don't want a federal program to help them wipe their bottoms or noses....liberal dems do! If Obama and Pelosi get their health care fiasco squared away something like this is on the wish list.

Stupid fucks really have no concept of the law of diminishing returns.

[Lamarck's Giraffe]

Yeah, government should respect and protect rights. They should not and do not "suppl[y] the rights we enjoy".

See the difference? Nice strawman though.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

Where does John Stewart live? I want to go to his house and ask him for $10,000. I will even "promise" to give the money to "firefighters", so he shouldn't have a problem with this.

[Len]

I thought the judge was pandering too much and didn't a good enough job refuting Stewart's stupidity.

For instance, on the roads he could have mentioned how during the early 1800s up to the WBTS that the majority of roads built were by private companies and that people tended to invest in those companies building in their locale as they realized the benefits.

[MJ]

All due respect to th Judge, but that is not that difficult an accomplishment.

[Joshua Corning]

Did Jon Stewart just say that libertarians don't believe in evolution?

LOL

[Appalachian Australian]

What's up with all the grumbling about child labour? Elsewhere I heard liberals complaining that the unemployment rate amongst lower-income teenagers is too high.

[Paul]

That's why liberals invented Americorps.

[Appalachian Australian]

Or propose that all 18 year olds should be forced into volunteer service.

[Paul]

That's why liberals invented Americorps.

[Audrey the Liberal]

That's why liberals invented Americorps.

I do wish people (both left and right) wouldn't use liberal and socialist synonymously.

[Paul]

That's why liberals invented Americorps.

[Mr. FIFY]

Why not? They ARE synonymous.

Just ask Lawrence O'Donnell.

[chris]

When Cornell started in with the . . wait . . Thaddeus Russell is going to be on the Summer cruise? I've wanted to get plastered with that dude for sometime now. Anyone know if he is a drinking man?

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

Um, I think you're supposed to end a post like this with "No Homo.". Unless, of course...

[GrizzlyAdam]

Shorter Cornell West: "Peter, you're wrong because I think you're wrong, and if I had more time I would try to come up with a coherent rebuttal to the points you are making. But in the meantime, you're wrong brother!"

[Paul]

Fuck you, Cornell West was in the third Matrix movie. Take that capitalism!

[Joe M]

Summary for the video impaired?

[Appalachian Australian]

Cornell West rants about how we need big government or else we wouldn't have weekends off and children would be chained to factory machines.

[bigsg]

We find out that Schiff and West are actually half-brothers.

[chris]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....63521.html

amaboss52
Quick Watson the needle!
1822 Fans
26 seconds ago (12:42 PM)
I don't trust the government?, but I trust corporatio?ns even less. Without regulation?s and laws we would be skrued. Just take a look throughout recent history to see how trustworth?y corporatio?ns are. They are all about the bottom line, they couldn't care less if they poison you. The free market is only free to those who can afford to buy it.

/*Insert appropriate George Santayana quote here.*/

How can the left be so daft?

[Joe M]

Seriously. Economics was a required course in high school, and we went over a lot of stuff that I think would cover this type of utter cluelessness, like, you know, supply and demand.

[SugarFree]

How can the left be so daft?

They work at it.

[Pro Libertate]

The Delusionocratic Party.

[chris]

Last night on Person of Interest the plot line was about a pharmaceutical company who sent fake trials to the FDA, where the real trials showed a 3 percent mortality rate. The drug was about to hit the market and the protagonist calculated there would be 36 thousand fatalities.

How is it they don't get laughed out of the screen writers guild? Sure, if this were the Soviet Union there would be a gun to your head that would force you to come up with those absurd and economically ignorant plots, but as far as I know, the writer did not have a gun to his head. There is no justifying that degree of stupidity. It's pathetic!

[John]

Yeah because people would just keep taking stuff that was killing other people. And it is not like a corporation has ever lost billions or gone bankrupt for making a dangerous produce. I mean the asbestos companies are still making billions right?

What is scary is that I guarantee you the guy who wrote that thinks it could really happen that way.

[Joe M]

Not to mention dead customers are not repeat customers.

[The Art-P.O.G.]

In defense of the writers and also alluding to the origin of the word, I guess deadlines are sort of like a gun to a writer's head. TV deadlines are a bitch. That's all I've got.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't trust the government?, but I trust corporatio?ns even less.

And what, pray tell, do you think a government is, if not a corporation (an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members.)?

It's almost like saying he doesn't like to sleep with feral cat, but would sleep with a tiger.

[Audrey the Liberal]

How can the left be so daft?

Public schools?

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

Is Cornel West the fat stupid version of The Ladies Man? Or is he trying to be a caricature of pseudo-intellectual blacks who use big words in a rambling attempt to sound smarter than they are?

The "cognac" remark was especially ridiculous.

[Fabius]

I spent an hour and a half listening to him speak at Ole Miss a few years ago. He is the stupidest pseudo-intellectual alive. Absolutely awful.

I like to think that he picked up the student newspaper while he was on campus and saw my column that was out that day headlined "Nelson Mandela is a Doddering Old Fool."

[John]

West is so stupid he managed to be a black leftist who didn't blow anything up and still get fired from Harvard. Think about that for a while. Do you know how stupid you have to be for Harvard to ask you to leave when you are both minority and sufficiently leftist?

[bigsg]

this

[Jeffersonian]

I don't think he was fired so much as he got huffy when Larry Summers told him to get off his ass and do something besides mumble incoherently at his students and make horrid rap albums.

[ola]

cornell is in a competition with deepak chopra to say the stupidest fucking things in a debate.

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

So he's Rick Perry in blackface?

[Apatheist]

Rick Perry is so stupid he can't even manage to get the stupid things out of his mouth without shitting himself.

[fish]

I didn't think it was possible but Perry makes Bush look thoughtful and intelligent.

[Pudgeboy]

Those are some mighty strong words... but I can't argue with you. Intellectual frauds, both... you feel dumber after listening to either.

[Zeb]

I'd have to hear him say "Courvoissier" to decide.

[Pi Guy]

Nah. He's Definitely a Hennessey Man.

[Audrey the Liberal]

What exactly is Cornel West a professor of?

[Jeffersonian]

Pre-homelessness. He's got the look down.

[Poet Laureate sloopyinca]

And AC369 is a douchenozzle". Not only do they misspell West's first name, they block the reason logo on the video for most of it.

[Appalachian Australian]

What the heck? When did Conrad Black start blogging for Huffpo? Is he blogging from prison?

[There is no Capitalism w/o gov]

Capitalism without government is like an undead corpse.

Has anybody conjured up one yet?

Let me know, we'll examine it.

[Episiarch]

There is no stupidity without rectal. Well, no bone-shattering stupidity without you, rectal. You bring the stupid, hard. You go, girl. Live it. Retard it up.

[There is no Capitalism w/o gov]

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, Episiarch?

None?

Couldn't you just say that instead of doing a silly dance?

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[White Indian]

Yo, keemosabe, over here!

[dunkel]

I was in Moscow in 1987. We were on a bridge just off of Red Square-the epicenter of fucking government and anti-capitalism-and the black market was booming. All the shit I brought back from Soviet Russia came from that bridge, a shining example of capitalism sans government. You really are a turd gurgling, douche slurping pustule...

[Matrix]

Your novelty has worn off... You're like the annoying guest that we got a good laugh at for a while but doesn't realize that he's long overstayed his welcome.

[There is no Capitalism w/o gov]

The guest who tells the truth can be quite annoying; thanks for pointing that out.

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, Matrix?

Zilch?

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[Old Mexican]

Re: There's no sex w/o rape,

The guest who tells the truth can be quite annoying; thanks for pointing that out.

A person that tells the truth ain't YOU. Besides, you're no guest.

[Mr. FIFY]

Is lesbian sex "rape"?

[Old Mexican]

"There would be no sex w/o rape"

Pretty much the same shitty argument.

[WTF]

I think this is actually true for rectal. She would never get any if she didn't go all STEVE SMITH.

[There is no Capitalism w/o gov]

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, Old Mexican?

None?

Capitalism takes massive amounts of aggression. Libertarians evade recognizing that aggression, but it is still there.

Our system of private property in land forces landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of duress. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs. ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi, This Ugly Civilization, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1929

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[There is no scatology without]

...the intellectually bankrupt Episiarch.

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO MONGOLOIDISM WITHOUT RECTAL

[Audrey the Liberal]

Seriously, Episiarch, why do you continue to respond to rather? She is obviously almost as thick skulled as a fundamentalist Christian, and therefor impenetrable to any and all reasonable arguments.

[Old Mexican]

Re: There's no sex w/o rape,

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, Old Mexican?

How about ALL of it, rectal? Government is an annoyance.

Your argument is stupid. It's like saying that there's no life without disease, implying disease is necessary for life. It ain't, you stupid whore.

[Thinking caps, next aisle]

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO MONGOLOIDISM WITHOUT RECTAL

[poetry]

An excellent reply.

[There is no Capitalism w/o gov]

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, poetry?

Remember, capitalism is based on gov't aggression: always has been, always will be.

And if you disagree, then give me an example of capitalism operating without coercion (government.)

I'm not interested in you fantasy theories. Example means something real. As in A=A sort of real.

[Abersouth]

Except it is an insult to whores. I like whores.

[wargames83]

Sure, people can trade without the government, but you need government to protect property rights. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law.

[Brandybuck]

Every society above the size of a small tribe has had a government (with the vast majority of those small tribes having one too).

The question is not whether you can have capitalism without government, it's whether you can have society without government. I do believe if you can get a true stateless society above a couple hundred individuals, then there would be no problem with capitalism.

[There is no Capitalism w/o gov]

whether you can have society without government

Of course you can. Nothing fantastical about a Non-State society.

The great non sequitur committed by defenders of Civilization, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of Civilization.

For more than 99 per cent of human history people have lived in groupings that social scientists call "non-state societies." ~NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES? http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper.....ieties.pdf

true stateless society above a couple hundred individuals

That is fantastical and impossible as an animated corpse. You may as well try conjuring up a Zombie. That's pretty much what libertarianism (and communism) is about, conjuring up a socioeconomic fantasy.

It's because of an evolutionary neurobiological limit known as Dunbar's Number, discussed in the following two essays:

Thesis #7: Humans are best adapted to band life.
Thesis #11: Hierarchy is an unnecessary evil.
The Thirty Theses
by Jason Godesky
http://rewild.info/anthropik/thirty/

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[There is no scatology without]

...the intellectually bankrupt Episiarch.

[WTF]

Shut the fuck up, Corky.

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO MONGOLOIDISM WITHOUT RECTAL

[fish]

Well if nothing else we know who "White Idiot" is. How's the [GAMBOLING} today?

[Pi Guy]

For more than 99 per cent of human history people have lived in groupings that social scientists call "non-state societies."

Then by all means, let's keep living that way. It's makes perfect sense. Let's try another, shall we:

For more than 99 per cent of human history people have lived in groupings suffered and died from disease and illness that some people NOT working for any government figured out how to treat that social scientists call "non-state societies." "medicine."

[Tonio]

Rather, there's a diffence between non-state societies and non-governed society. As BB pointed out above, even micro-societies tend to have some form of "government." This is often in the form of an all-powerful chief, ie an autarchy.

[Government is force]

micro-societies don't need force, and tend NOT to use force

So quit making up dishonest bullshit that is easily debunked with a freshman anthropology text.

[Red Rocks Rockin]

micro-societies don't need force, and tend NOT to use force

The entire history of primitive tribal conflicts disagrees with you.

[Red Rocks Rockin]

So quit making up dishonest bullshit that is easily debunked with a freshman anthropology text.

Just because you saw freshman anthropology students watching you and your fellow capuchins in the monkey cage doesn't mean the argument is debunked.

[Wayne]

Cornel West is an incomprehensible idiot. Try reading some of his articles or books, I dare you.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Wayne,

You're so right. Schiff explains to him how the government "solves" a problem it created in the first place by creating another problem and West goes back with the same stupid boilerplate.

[Jesus Shaves!]

The religio-economic slogans continue. Do they ever change anything?

About as much as prayer to a Hebrew skygod plagiarized from Ugaritic clay tablets.

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[There is no scatology without]

...the intellectually bankrupt Episiarch.

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO MONGOLOIDISM WITHOUT RECTAL

[Old Mexican]

The pseudo-intellectualism of the whorish Rather, in all of its glory for all to behold.

[OM's girly-man fetish...]

....is intellectual.

[Mainer]

I always get the impression that West is the left's answer to Thomas Sowell, but that's probably racist of me.

[WTF]

Because he's the anti-Sowell, idiotic instead of smart.

[Wayne]

i would enjoy West's opinion if they could be understood, I would probably disagree with him, but I enjoy a good debate. He is literally incomprehensible.

He is much worse than Neu Mejican, for example; I can sometimes follow NM's logic. 🙂

[Appalachian Australian]

What nobody gets is that government is just another big corporation. They're the biggest, baddest, meanest corp. in town.

Liberals operate under the delusion government is somehow accountable to the voters, or at least to them.

[Joe M]

Indeed. It's the original monopoly.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Appalachian Australian,

Liberals operate under the delusion government is somehow accountable to the voters, or at least to them.

If you see the interview by Jon Stewart of Judge Andrew Napolitano, Stewart makes the very same argument: That government is accountable to one because one is the government. The problem is that he says this and then immediately changes the subject so the Judge cannot offer a rebuttal, but here's mine:

It is the most idiotic argument the libs have. If one is the government, as they say, how can *I* be accountable to *ME*? It is absurd. So either the government ain't me, or me is crazy. Obviously, the government ain't me.

The second thing about the argument that government is more accountable to people than "corporations": It's stupid. The government TAKES our money by force; the government has the BIGGER GUNS. Corporations, instead, have to convince me through better products or services to receive my money. If I don't like the product from corporation A, I can go to corporation B. With government, there's no B!

[Leftist Trope]

But the poor!

[rts]

The second thing about the argument that government is more accountable to people than "corporations": It's stupid.

Corporations are "held accountable" literally billions of times a day, as dollars are spent (or not spent).

Contrast that to government, which is ostensibly held accountable once every four or five years, depending on jurisdiction.

[Shocked]

More Lib Thinking. "But when the market speaks and a corporation looses, then JOBZ are lost, and we can't have that either. So we must protect the corporations that we don't want to protect so that a job once created will always be there."

How these libs don't have their heads explode from the vicious circle of arguments with themselves, I'll never know.

[rts]

Really thick skulls?

[Squeal like a girlyboy, OM]

With government, there's no B!

Nobody is stopping you from emigrating to Somalia, a totally awesomized libertarian paradise, according to reason.com and mises.com.

But they you'd squeal like a little girly-boy living in a place without government.

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[Old Mexican]

Epi, you were right all along - it was always rather.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Disgusting Troll,

Nobody is stopping you from emigrating to Somalia,

Nobody is stopping you from emigrating to your "original affluent society" either, girl.

But they you'd squeal like a little girly-boy living in a place without government.

I'm from Mexico, whore. I know how to live without government - can you?

[Mexico has government, whore]

[Old Mexican]

Re: Stoopid Whore,

Yes, Mexico has a government - and it's like it's not there. People still go about their business, so FUCK YOU!

[OM's whore fetish]

One minute: I'm from Mexico, whore. I know how to live without government

Next minute: Yes, Mexico has a government...

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Old Mexican speak with forked tongue.

[poetry]

drink

[Red Rocks Rockin]

Nobody is stopping you from emigrating to Somalia

Nobody is stopping you from migrating to America's open spaces, a totally awesomized primitivist paradise, according to the anthropology student who made my coffee this morning.

[KDN]

The problem is that he says this and then immediately changes the subject so the Judge cannot offer a rebuttal

Pretty standard Stewart, it's his show and he plays that advantage to the hilt. I recall when Jonah Goldberg was out promoting Liberal Fascism he went on Stewart and the production team cut out a quarter of his responses to Jon's incredulous rants while leaving the rants intact.

[John]

It is shit like that that causes me to lose all respect for his fan boys. If he is such a serious guy, why the hell can't he ever have a fair argument? Why should I listen to anything someone that dishonest has to say?

[wargames83]

Are you talking about Stewart fans? Stewart puts the full interview on the web. There is only a limited amount of time on the regular show for the interview.

[Audrey the Liberal]

It's not as if Jonah Goldberg needs help sounding like a massive tool.

[Blueman]

But the roads!? What about the roads?

[cynical]

They also believe that the government is wholly answerable to corporations and the rich. Doublethink much?

["Govt" is just "middle mgt"...]

...for the real owners of this country.

George Carlin: The real owners of the country
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oBo8CJxatQ

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[poetry]

No, no, he linked to Carlin. Let it be.

[Sailor]

He linked to unfunny Carlin.

[Epi panties are in a twist...]

...and they are reallllllllly tight, poetry.

Maybe they'll loosen up when he can think of an example of a capitalist economy operating without government coercion.

Or maybe they'll get even tighter.

[fish]

You've repeated this line 8 or 9 times in the thread....it's incorrect.

THERE IS NO RECTAL WITHOUT STUPID!

FIFY!

[Mr. Mark]

From the Princeton University website: "The estimated cost of attendance for 2011-12 is $52,670."

You know, for roughly the same amount of money....

[Mainer]

Last night I heard an OWS protestor interviewed and he complained he had $20,000 of student debt. And I thought, this dumbass would probably sign up for a $30,000 car loan to have a cool car, but a $20,000 student loan is some insurmountable barrier to his future.

[JD the elder]

By OWS standards, $20,000 is very low. There are plenty of 99%ers claiming $50,000 - $80,000 in debt. One guy claimed to be $50,000 in debt after only two years. You know, I don't claim to be a financial genius, but I have never in my life thought, "You know what would be a great idea? Adding $20,000 of debt per year at a time when I'm hardly making any money!"

[JD the elder]

Wow, I found an even higher one! $150,000 of student loan debt!
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tum.....o1_500.jpg
We should play "OWS student loan Easter egg hunt" - winner is the person who can find the highest claimed amount of debt.

[FlyoverCountry]

I just had to turn a loan down for a doctor because he had, no lie, $352,000 in student loan debt.

Now, I know that as a doctor, he should be able to handle that debt load, but sweet baby jesus!

[Another Phil]

The best thing about this one is that the whole story is about a rich dad with a gambling problem who is dragging the whole family down. What the hell does have to do with anything? The parodies write themselves.

[Red Rocks Rockin]

I keep telling you all that the actual 99%er photos are better than any parody we could write up. If they didn't exist, we'd have to invent them.

[Another Phil]

I'm not going to tell you guys how much debt I'm going to have from vet school. It's a lot more than $20,000. Vets can make a respectable living, especially in a large city, but nothing near what an M.D. can make. However, they are fucking loans. Who the hell doesn't understand that "loan" = "pay back in the future" when they sign the promissory notes?

And this "99%" and "1%" thing is starting to get to me like nails on a chalkboard. It's pretty brazen for people shrieking about democracy to claim to speak for 99% of 300 million people without even asking them, consent of the governed and all.

[Apogee]

without even asking them, consent of the governed and all.

That's the point.

[Jeffersonian]

And, in four years, you'd have a fleet of them and no brain Cornel West has filled with surreal bullshit.

[Fist of Etiquette]

People are responsible for their own bad behavior, as long as they don't work on Capitol Hill.

[Mist of Connecticut]

People are responsible for their own bad behavior, as long as they don't have enough money for good lawyers.

[Leftist Trope]

But the Korporat Greed.
Greedy Korporashuns

[Holy Cow]

Man, those comments over at HuffPo re: Judge Napolitano/Stewart are downright scary. I hope they're mostly kids or mental patients.

Ignorance is one thing, but the smugness......

[Pro Libertate]

Force plays a much larger part in the government of the world than it did before 1914, and what is especially alarming, force tends increasingly to fall into the hands of those who are enemies of civilization. The danger is profound and terrible; it cannot be waved aside with easy optimism.

The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.

[cynical]

What rough beast, etc. etc.

[Episiarch]

I thought evil would always triumph because good is dumb?

[Pro Libertate]

I don't know about that, but I do know that the Black Knight always triumphs.

[Black Knight]

"I'm invincible!"

[chris]

I wished that were the case. I'd retire in a few years if true.

[flye]

You made me look, damn you. Why? Why?!?

[goneGalt]

I hope they're mostly kids or mental patients.

Nope. That's our "body politic" talking over there.

We are soooo... screwed, it's too late, it is past time for the producing class to have goneGalt.

[Colin]

I say this for Cornell West, unlike most of his comrades, he's good natured. That was a much more pleasant debate than I anticipated.

[anarch]

Racist!

[Epi, white courtesy phone...]

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, Episiarch?

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO STUPID WITHOUT RECTAL

[No answer, just scatology.]

Ponder questions too hard for Episiarch.

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO MONGOLOIDISM WITHOUT RECTAL

[poetry]

All of it. Government just latches on and makes it unpleasant.

What example of bread do you have without mold?

[Epi, white courtesy phone...]

What example of capitalism operating without government do you have, Episiarch?

[Episiarch]

THERE IS NO MONGOLOIDISM WITHOUT RECTAL

[Joe M]

Epi, why don't you just ignore the idiot instead of doubling the amount of real estate they're taking up with garbage? I'd be willing to bet even the continuous stream of insults you send their way feeds their pathetic need for attention and eggs them on.

[Episiarch]

I normally do. This thread bottom is fucked anyway, why not do it? I'm writing some really tedious copy-and-paste code right now anyway, and this keeps me amused.

[Joe M]

Ha, that reminds me. Have we found any regulars here that aren't in either IT or Law?

[Episiarch]

Sure, I think. There are a number of other professions, there just seems to be greater percentages of IT programmers and parasites lawyers.

[fish]

I'm in pornography!

[The Heresiarch]

I'm a parasite, too. Yeah! Insert disclaimer about lowering transaction costs and providing efficient resolution of disputes; cf. Mexican cartels.

[DesigNate]

I'm in architecture. After dealing with cities for 9 years I can assure you that the best way to make someone a libertarian is to have them either design or try to start a business in any major metropolitan area in the country. My god the bureaucracy!

[this keeps me amused LOLOL]

[WTF]

There really is no stupid without rectal.

[Pi Guy]

OK, then how about we try this:
What example of government operating without capitalism do you have?

OR...
What example of government operating without socialism do you have?

OR...
What example of government operating without feudalism do you have?

See, governments only come into being after someone creates a product or provides a service worth plundering. It's just that with capitalism there's enough extra productivity to prop up the gov's operations longer because it takes longer to run out of other people's money. They can keep the scam going longer.

Misparaquoting Winston Churchill:

"Capitalism is the worst form of economy. Except for all of the others."

[Smoove]

Dear Reason TV,

Buy these gentlemen some coffee and cognac and let them continue the debate so you can record and televise it.

[John]

http://online.wsj.com/article/.....n_newsreel

I know regulators get a lot of deserved abuse on here. But Edward DeMarco seems like a great American.

The White House sees this as?woohoo!?"free stimulus," a way to quickly dump money into borrowers' pockets, no congressional approval or official spending estimates needed. Fannie and Freddie would swallow the losses, quietly adding to the $141 billion taxpayers have already blown on the pair. Democrats would meanwhile get big-time backslaps for aiding the housing market, and just in time for November 2012.

But Mr. DeMarco won't play ball. The 51-year-old regulator, who has spent a career in serious Washington jobs, takes seriously his legal obligation to preserve Fannie's and Freddie's assets, thus protecting taxpayers. He's pushed back on a number of Obama housing schemes, but his real affront is refusing mortgage forgiveness. When I called Mr. DeMarco, he told me he does view it as his mandate, as conservator, to "be actively and aggressively engaging in loss mitigation activities" for homeowners, at least when they end up costing Fannie and Freddie less than foreclosure. The agency has engaged in 1.9 million such transactions.

But when it comes to principal forgiveness, says Mr. DeMarco, there is no "upside" to taxpayers?the lenders lose whether the borrower fails or succeeds. "If Congress wants to appropriate money" to pay for the program, "that changes the calculus." Until then, he doesn't view principal forgiveness as within his "statutory mandate."

Mr. DeMarco these days is being treated with all the courtesy Democrats normally reserve for Paul Ryan. The White House's initial instinct was to disappear the troublemaker, who inherited his job in 2009 after his predecessor left. The Obama team a year ago nominated North Carolina Banking Commissioner Joseph A. Smith, who looked to be far more on the Obama political page. Republicans balked, and in January Mr. Smith withdrew his troubled nomination.

Democrats have since moved to outright public assault. A group of 17 House Democrats met with Mr. DeMarco in early October and went bananas when he refused to roll to their demands. "I said to him twice, 'Mr. DeMarco, if you cannot do this job . . . maybe you should move to the side and let somebody else come and replace you,'" railed Maryland Rep. Elijah Cummings. "Either do something or get out of the way," griped California's Dennis Cardoza.

[Tom]

Two words: affirmative action

[Epi, white courtesy phone...]

By what method(s) has capitalism ever operated without government, Episiarch?

Any examples?

[Episiarch]

THERE ARE NO ANAL FISSURES WITHOUT RECTAL

[Warty]

This is your new attack, rectal? You get worse at this by the day.

[Episiarch]

By the hour.

[Zeb]

The past week or so has been a continuous nose dive. It there a bottom to this fucking thing?

[Warty]

-1 UNSUBSTANTIVE

[DesigNate]

You forgot to mention how you make more money than him.

[Dave]

Dude, your argument is irrelevant here. Perhaps you should find an anarchist site to make your argument. No reasonable libertarian disputes the need for a government with laws and police to protect individual rights and freedoms. This would include property rights and other economic rights which are basic to capitalism. The libertarian argument is that there should be a limit to government power, appropriately determined by the point when it begins to infringe upon or trample individual liberties/rights. Let me make it simple for you. We need police but they should have reasonable limits on their power. They shouldn't be able to just execute people without a trial. Currently, our government operates much like a police force without limits - there are no limits on its manipulation of the tax code to punish or reward, no apparent limits on its spending, no apparent limits on its taking from some and giving to others and no apparent limits on its abuse of many basic individual rights. This is a government which is completely out of control, a monster which is already crushing our freedoms and will perpetrate even greater horrors if it is not reined in.

[Michael J Green]

...Y'know, ReasonTV has just posted interviews with two anarcho-capitalists in as many days.

You don't need to be so mean to us anarchists!

[Pi Guy]

And by what method has government ever operated without [fill in name of favorite way in which people meet their needs and achieve their desires*], White Phone?

* BTW: some people call this phenomenom "the economy"

[Cornell West]

Barack Obama's election is the dialectical realization of the 400 year oppression of the American Black. This warfare was conducted by the militant corporate/police state in the hopes of undoing the societal bonds of the black experience. This does not mean that Barack Obama is the savior of his race, but rather it means he is that FULFILLMENT of his race.

[Jon Stewart]

Sorry, Cornell, the network wants us to cut most of your statement due to time constraints. But, don't worry, your entire interview will be posted online.

[Sidd Finch]

From one of the great magazine articles of all time:

The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen

Recently, an eminent, varied, large, and unlikely delegation of Americans, led by the Reverend Al Sharpton, went to Africa to heal a wounded continent. They took the whitest man in America with them....

No one looked more soulful than West himself, who was dressed, as always, like a slightly flashy undertaker: white shirt, black three-piece suit, silver pocket watch and chain. He could have been on his way to meet the next of kin. In fact, he was coming from a jazz club. West had stayed in the city until 4:00 A.M. before returning to his "crib in Jersey" (Princeton, New Jersey, where he teaches), then catching a ride to the airport. Along the way, he'd neglected to pack. West boarded the flight for Ghana with two books and a tiny carry-on the size of a woman's cosmetic case. That was it. He had no suitcases or garment bags or luggage of any kind. Nor did he have any real idea where we were going or how long we might be there. "When are we coming back?" he asked me as we walked down the ramp onto the plane.

http://www.esquire.com/feature.....IBERIA_rev

[Jason]

There is no way to refute what Peter says. Also, I don't think people would take the other guy as seriously if it weren't for his visual aesthetic. That man is used to speaking to college students who can't wait to have their minds plundered. Schiff KNOWS about markets and PREDICTED this long ago. I wonder what Cornell West was saying in 2003-2007? Did he write a book describing, in detail, exactly what in fact did happen?

[Jason]

There is no way to refute what Peter says. Also, I don't think people would take the other guy as seriously if it weren't for his visual aesthetic. That man is used to speaking to college students who can't wait to have their minds plundered. Schiff KNOWS about markets and PREDICTED this long ago. I wonder what Cornell West was saying in 2003-2007? Did he write a book describing, in detail, exactly what in fact did happen?

[CalebT]

Dude, if only you could find something truly substantive that West has authored during the past decade...a time when, I shit you not, he took a role in The Matrix Revolutions. He's such a fucking lousy Marxist that he hasn't even showed up at any RATM concerts of which I am aware.

[Wayne]

As a former college student, I would have been seriously pissed off if I had to sit through three lectures oh his incoherent babble every week.

However, I was immune to his Cornellian jibberish; I was an engineering student so his class would not have been one of my electives.

[Typical Humanities Professor]

"However, I was immune to his Cornellian jibberish."

Gibberish, you, brutha, are either a teabagging, billionaire redneck or you haven't read enough to understand Dr. West...or, am I being redundant?

[Cornel West's Scarf]

Can someone remind Cornel to take me off during the warmer months. I can't tell you how bad I smell right now.

[octothorpe]

Cornell West is the most successful spin off from Sandford and Son, I wonder how much he pays Norman Lear in royalties?

[Cornel West]

The Sanford and Son garage is a jail cell for the Black Community. Don't worry about the riches of the world; worry about how God is gonna judge you for what you did to help your fellow brutha. This intrinsic need to find fault in your brutha is what is going to lead to the end of society and the construction of super-capito-fascist superstructure.

[Norman Lear]

Cha-ching!

[Matt]

I didn't find this discussion "heated" at all. Sure it was a debate but I was very impressed with the civility on both sides. I think Schiff gave the labor movement too rough of a time toward the end -- the only objectionable thing about labor is when it resorts to the same rent-seeking behavior (such as "closed shop" laws) that corporations engage in through subsidies.

Upton Sinclair -- agree or disagree with his politics -- in his role as an author was simply publishing books and contributing to public discourse. And I do think some of the contributions he and other NON-GOVERNMENTAL activists made did help end some of the child labor, etc, ALONG WITH the increased standard of living brought on by capitalism. Which was the chicken or egg -- I don't know, but both played a role. The fact that someone's a socialist alone shouldn't disqualify them from merely making social observations or trying to expose bad business practices.

[Denise]

I don't know how to discuss.

[Cate]

It's true what Plato said: "Democracy will always fail, because the masses do not know what is best for them." That is plainly obvious when reading the conservatives ridiculous comments on this board. You want no government, huh? Let's see YOU defend against an attack, or recover from a hurricane, or educate all your kids to the graduate level, or build roads and bridges, or care for the elderly, or clean the air and water. You all have what ALL conservatives have: a complete and utter lack of empathy. I'd LOVE to send you all to a country with no central government, and you can watch the chaos. Please. Go.

[DesigNate]

Concern troll is concerned.

[Mike E]

Conservative? Makes me wonder if I should bother responding to the rest of your comment.

We own more guns than you. The left doesn't even believe in self-defense.

I am intelligent enough to not live where hurricanes frequent.

Schools can exist without government.

So can roads (Drink) and bridges.

People used to take care of their own elderly parents.

The government's disrespect of property rights is what causes dirty air and water.

You can empathize with others' struggles and not believe that government is the solution.

But, if you think this board is conservative, it doesn't surprise me that you hold these untrue beliefs.

[wargames83]

What if you don't have living kids? The Libertarian way leaves those without strong personal connections out to dry.

[wargames83]

The way customers spend money only holds a company accountable for the quality of the product that they sell. It does not hold the company accountable for bad actions that a company may do in the process of making that product, such as destroying the environment or abusing employees. It takes a group not driven by the profit motive, such as government, to hold companies accountable for those actions. How can libertarianism be considered a viable philosophy if its adherents don't even understand the concept of negative externalities?