Labor

"Buy American" Is Un-American

We need more competition in the auto industry, not less.

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Buy American! A conventional, well-intentioned, patriotically affirming sentiment. We've heard it all our lives. But unless you crave less competition, fewer choices, and higher prices, it's also a completely irrational one.

Naturally, then, as we kick off "Recovery Summer! Part Deux," the chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee says that buying homemade cars is a matter of national importance. "If it were up to the candidates for president on the Republican side, we would be driving foreign cars," Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz explained while defending the protectionist auto/union bailout. "They would have let the auto industry in America go down the tubes." (And by "we," Wasserman Schultz, proud American, is talking about herself and her sweet Japanese-made Infiniti FX35.)

As if that weren't enough, those who oppose this brand of corporate welfare, according to Wasserman Schultz, also reject the very idea of "American exceptionalism." Now, one might argue that those who claim we must bankroll a few politically favored companies because an entire manufacturing sector could collapse are the ones skeptical of American ingenuity, perseverance, and exceptionalism.

But God, evidently, loves the Volt and the Volt only. And Americans—people who can do almost anything, including, but not limited to, electing politicians who keep rotten companies buoyant for political gain—have a patriotic duty to buy poorly conceived automobiles. You have an obligation to insulate Washington's favorite companies from responsibility. For God and for country, taxpayers must purchase cars from corporations that have not come close—despite the contention of the administration—to paying back what they already owe you.

But hey, the car was assembled in Michigan. If that's not a sign of American exceptionalism, I don't know what is.

Even if Wasserman Schultz's "Buy American" rhetoric were genuine, it would be severely misguided. Every time we overpay for an American-made product (whatever it is), don't we also spend less on an array of other services and products that create jobs at home? Real jobs. Self-sustaining jobs. If we all mechanically bought American, wouldn't we allow manufacturers to avoid competition and rely on their locations rather than the excellence of their products? Sounds like the opposite of exceptionalism.

Companies on the dole also have incentive to please their benefactors in Washington—a place that has the power to offer more handouts or to stifle competition. Like much of modern liberalism these days, a socially responsible outcome is far more important than a profitable one. Business is for social good, not for profit-mongering. We have no clue what's good for us, anyway. These companies, though, have less incentive to keep prices low or to innovate or to meet consumer demand.

Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman once explained in his book Pop Internationalism that if he could stress one thing to students, it would be that "international trade is not about competition, it is about mutually beneficial exchange." Wasserman Schultz is bright, so she must know all about the counterproductive history of protectionism. Then again, when she says "Buy American," maybe she just means "Buy Union"—buy union because taxpayers subsidize GM and it pays workers and they subsidize unions that subsidize the right candidates. A mutually beneficial exchange.

Or maybe—like most Americans, however inclined they are to embrace populist rhetoric regarding trade during tough times—Wasserman Schultz acts rationally when spending her own money. Now if only that rationality could seep into her political life, we'd be a lot better off.

David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Blaze. Follow him on Twitter @davidharsanyi.

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  1. In Wasserman’s defense, it is not exactly like Infinity is a Japanese sounding name. How was she supposed to know it wasn’t an American car? What is more American than Infinity? And besides she said people should by American sounding cars. So it is all good.

    1. She didn’t say Americans should buy any sort of cars.

      She said that without the bailout, there wouldn’t be a domestic auto industry.

      1. Hey look, an idiot is confusing obnoxious niggling with being smart. Isn’t that fucking special.

        1. Your butt still hurts from the fact-pwnage I gave you yesterday?

          1. Do people still seriously say “pwnage”?

            I thought that had pretty much joined “rad” in the list of “things people only say when they’re trying to be ‘ironic'”

            1. Oooh, burn!

              1. What a face!

          2. Only you would count a serious reading comprehension deficiency as ‘pwnage’. Go play some MW2 now.

      2. And that’s just as stupid.

        Maybe even more so.

        1. I’d rather argue about things that she actually said, rather than one of Glenn Beck’s idiots’ moronic interpretation of what she said.

          1. No you wouldn’t, dipshit. You’d rather bring up irrelevancies and then smugly claim victory.

            1. That is his move. It is not like he has anything else. Got to go with your move.

            2. You seem to think factual accuracy is irrelevant. That must make libertarianism much easier to swallow!

              1. And Danny connects with a harsh insult! PWNAGE

                1. Oh look a new troll. Cool, let’s see if he can step up his game though. I’m not amused so far.

                2. All the talk about PWNAGE makes this clown sound like joe.

                  1. He looms large!

                  2. He hasn’t threatened to take a swing at me yet. Our talked about how well he did at the Short Bus State Debate Finals.

                    1. I doubt he would show his gorilla mask around here, what with the stellar job Obama’s doing.

        2. Curse your nimble hands etc. etc.

      3. No domestic auto industry except for those millions of cars that BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, and Suburu produce in the US.

        Son, fat drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.

        1. There is more to the auto industry than simply putting cars together. Where do the parts for those foreign cars get made? Where do they get designed?

          1. Where do you think the parts for a Ford come from? All over the world dipshit. No car is made in “one country”.

            1. So there’s no difference between a car that is made with 80% domestic parts and one that’s made with 20% domestic parts to the US economy?

                1. Stop crying.

                  1. Actually, I haven’t cried at all. I thought you cared about facts? PWND

              1. What the fuck is it to you? Who cares if we make cars? We are the biggest manufacturer in the world despite being mostly a service based economy.

                1. Besides I thought leftists cared most about the stalwart proletarians on the assembly lines. Do they really want the fat cats to be American too?

                2. derider – dont miss the hate. libtoids HATE union employees regardless of sector. the HATE is all that really matters for them.

                  1. Well, that and a decently made Reuben Sammich. Not some half assed imitation, mind you.

                  2. I don’t have any problem with unions. Nor, would I venture, do any of the other “libtoids” on this site. Voluntary assembly is a great thing. However, when forced entry into unions, coercion, political favoritism, etc are involved, I have a problem with it. But I suppose that’s far too nuanced a view and doesn’t conform to Team Blue/Team Red false dichotomies, so you can’t understand it. I’m just a dumb “libtoid”, after all.

                    1. Coercion and political favoritism are endemic to all parts of our economy, not just unionized labor.

                    2. Coercion and political favoritism are endemic to all parts of our economy, not just unionized labor.

                      Therefore, we need more government control of the economy. And make it more complex, too. Perhaps if we make the rules even more complex and obscure the amount of corruption will decrease.

                    3. That still doesn’t explain why “progressives” and liberals want to give MORE power to the government, so that we can have MORE coercion and political favoritism, with the end result that it is a better investment to have a good politician in your pocket than to produce a good product.

                    4. wrong DK. libtoids on this site HATE union collective bargining, contractural due process, & freedom of association regardless of public or private sectors.

                    5. “NAH UH YOU TOTALLY DO!!1!!!g”

                      Well argued, friend.

                    6. Since you need the obvious spelled out for you…

                      kinnath|6.1.11 @ 1:02PM|#

                      I pray for the day the UAW goes tits up.

                    7. Leave me out of your petty bullshit, dumbfuck.

                      The fact that I consider the UAW to be a criminal organization does not mean that I am opposed to collective bargaining.

                    8. Repeal the National Labor Relations Act and the Sherman and Clayton Acts and I will like collective bargaining just fine.

                    9. So there’s two people who hate organized labor… anyone else willing to prove bobchild wrong?

                    10. What’s your basis for claiming that I hate organized labor?

                      I think it’s perfectly natural that sellers of a product or service might try to combine their efforts to get a better price for their product or service in the market.

                      I just don’t think this right should be available to ALL market participants and not just some.

                      I also think that if the buyers of their good or service can evade the combination effort by buying elsewhere, the members of the combination should not be able to compel continued purchases by whining to the NLRB.

                      If you achieve a closed shop or a collective bargaining contract by true bargaining, more power to you.

                    11. I just don’t think this right should be available to ALL market participants and not just some.

                      Sorry, I got my negatives all tangled up there. This should not have the word “don’t” in it.

                    12. How can you rationalize blindly hating corporations and yet loving unions? At its roots is a union not essentially a corporation that sells labor. How is a corporation monopolizing a market bad but a union monopolizing a labor market okay? Collective bargaining sounds a lot like price collusion especially when you don’t allow any competition.

                    13. Wrong. I don’t know that a libtoid is, but I do HATE morons that are forced to rely on straw men in order to make a point.

                      The problem is that the term “collective bargaining” doesn’t simply mean the right of people to band together and demand that they be dealt with collectively. Instead, “collective bargaining” is now a legal term of art for a system that deprives people of their freedom of contract, violates their due process rights, and violates their freedom of association rights. You can respect the right of people to associate freely while still reserving the right to tell those people to take a hike if their demands are unreasonable. Also, it is pretty ballsy to get up on a soapbox about due process when talking about the auto industry, considering that the Chrysler deal completely violated the due process rights of the bondholders in favor of the union.

      4. She said that without the bailout, there wouldn’t be a domestic auto industry.

        Oh.

        That actually sounds a little sillier.

        1. What’s Ford, Canadian?

          1. No. And Canada doesn’t have more than three or four brands anymore, by the looks of it.

          2. Those Canuks are willey Pro. you may think Ford is American, but that is exactly what they want you to think.

      5. Ford never took bailout $$$ – one reason I’m driving one right now.

        1. Thank you. I have 6 Ford products, myself 🙂

          1. and the last makers of a full-frame / RWD V8 car *sigh* I like my ghetto cruisers.

            1. Yeah, long live the Crown Vic/Gand Marquis/Town Car. I had a Town Car a couple years ago…black on black…EPIC. As my boss said, “You’re the only guy under the age of 60 who can pull that off.” 🙂 What a fun ride – like the ’73 Olds 88 of my yute.

              1. Yute? What’s a yute?

                1. In Australia, a Ute is a pickup. Here, it’s whatever you want it to be!

                  1. A Ute is an Indian. It’s the tribe that Utah was named after.

                2. Oh yeah, you blend.

                  1. I wondered if anyone else would get the reference 🙂

                    1. Looks like those two youtthzz got the reference.

              2. I had a Grand Marquis a few years back, before I bought my first of three Toyotas and had the epiphany that cars don’t have to constantly be breaking down and doing annoying shit, just the UAW ones.

          2. Yeah, I’ll give a Ford a chance when I’m in the market for a car in…what’s the average life of a Japanese car?…oh right, in ten years or so when mine finally crumbles like the Blues Brothers-mobile.

            1. I still have a 1995 Accord. Runs great. Probably will get a new Accord.

            2. Oldest Toyota I have is my 1999 Camry. About 120K miles and still reliable as heck, albeit kinda dirty inside from a dozen years of getting abused by kids.

              My 2007 Avalon Limited — gonna drive the wheels off that baby. Talk about a sweet ride.

            3. Pretty much all cars are good now. Even VW, Land Rover, Suzuki, and Mini, which are all at the bottom of the heap in terms of reliability, will last a good long while with proper maintainance.

        2. Though I remember it wanted to reserve the option of getting public money, so they’re not off the hook.

          1. It’s over – already paying back the *private8 loans ahead of schedule, and are in a positive cash position. No gummint loan/bailout will be needed nor happen.

            1. Good. They’re redeeming themselves.

        3. Ford’s “MyFord Touch” and “Sync” systems seem pretty cool.

      6. Right. She just set up a world were everyone had to buy foreign cars as a horrible example of how evil her opponents are.

        Completely different. Somehow.

      7. Considering Ford didn’t take the bailout, she’d be wrong on that point too.

        In fact, pretty much every auto-related piece of legislation floated by Team Blue seems coldly calculated to destroy any American startups from bolstering the US auto industry, instead sacrificing new life to shore up old, rotten trees. (Although, frankly, without the Michigan and Federal governments running interference for the unions against management, GM and Chrysler probably wouldn’t have needed a bailout. Sure, they might be smaller, but they’d probably be healthier.)

      8. Domestic in terms of ownership, apparently, since there would still be plenty of cars made by American workers.

        Well, we all know she actually meant “unionized auto industry”, and who can blame her for wanting to give from the public largesse to those who want to give to her and her party? It’s like a kickback, but legal. Sweet!

    2. She’s confusing it with the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. People commonly, if oddly, confuse “Illudium” with “infinity.”

      1. Where’s the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!

        1. That’s only with GM cars.

          1. And Pintos.

            Are there any Pintos left, or did they all blow up already?

            1. Plenty of em. The gas tank ‘splosion thing was really overblown. A scare tactic for trial lawyers and politicians to profit by.

              1. I owned a Pinto. The scary thing was the awful handling and braking, not the goddamn gas tank.

                Didn’t meet my future wife until I ditch that car and got a nicer car. Talk about a “not gonna get any pussy” car.

    3. Spelled Infiniti. Owned by Nissan.

      1. It’s funny, because I thought that was common knowledge. I remember well the first big ad campaign they ran with Jonathan Pryce.

        1. Apparently not to members of the Democratic National Committee.

        2. Yeah. I remember those. The analog clock in the dash. Somehow the clock in the center of the dash was a Big Fucking Deal. Never quite got that. Hi, Mr. Infiniti dealer. I know about the clock. I don’t know why the fuck it’s such a big deal, but I know about it. Do I get a discount now?

        3. Jonathan Pryce as James Lingk in Glengarry Glen Ross. nuff said.

  2. In Wasserman’s defense, it is not exactly like Infinity is a Japanese sounding name. How was she supposed to know it wasn’t an American car? What is more American than Infinity? And besides she said people should by American sounding cars. So it is all good.

  3. You know what I hate about this narrative?

    That the people pushing it are either so stupid or so dishonest that they really believe that had the auto companies entered bankruptcy without administration intervention, that the trustees and creditors would have burned down all the plants, spiked all the machinery and obliterated the brands and nameplates.

    That is a pretty extreme level of stupidity OR dishonesty, but I guess some people can attain either or both.

    1. They are also putting forth the myth that there is no American auto industry outside of the big 3 because if the plant is owned by feriners, it doesn’t count I guess.

      1. But they also hate the evil capitalists who own the domestic plants.

        1. I’m confused now. Who do I hate again?

        2. Exactly. Watch ‘Roger and Me’.

          GM is evil because it closes factories.

          But GM must get a bailout because we’re all doomed unless they have a captive market.

      2. They also ignore all of the jobs that foreign auto companies have “outsourced” to the United States.

        1. We’re tekken yer jobs!!!

      3. You know that libertarians are allowed to eat laid off unionistas don’t you? They don’t taste very good but, hey, they’re nearly free with shipping.

        1. I find unionists go very well with a Malbac.

    2. Or that the slowdown and volatility from a GM bankruptcy would completely obliterate the US auto industry. That’s the follow-up you hear once people are questioned on the first assertion.

      Just for reference, here in Japan many auto companies had facilities near Fukushima (especially R&D). They’ve idled many production lines, seen their JIT inventory systems blow up, and took nearly a month to just start work again (for various reasons: structural damage, no supplies, workers gone home). This summer several will be on staggered schedules because of the inevitable blackouts. It is in all ways worse than what a GM bankruptcy — which is a change of ownership and a recapitalization, which is exactly what happened minus following the actual rules — would have done to the supply chain.

      1. So, it’s the recovery summer of the broken window/Japan.

  4. Every article reason re-posts from “The Blaze” strips it of some of its credibility.

  5. “Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman”

    Those are not the same people.
    The economist is no more.
    He has been replaced with a Democrat shill.

    1. If I call Milton Friedman a “Republican shill” does that disappear his Nobel too?

      1. If I cared to, and I do not, I could easily come up with quotes from Krugnut’s columns that are in total contradiction with his work as an economist.

        I don’t think that would be possible for Friedman, though you are welcome to try.

      2. Nope. Krugman has become just another political commentator.

        Friedman’s writings, and policy proposals were limited to areas in which he had conducted research.

        1. And your knowledge of the extent of Krugman’s economic research is informed by…

          1. Stop shilling for the shill. This is getting too meta.

            1. The conversation is beginning to approach reality. ABORT! ABORT!

              1. Yes. Reality. Lecture us more on this “reality.”

                1. Yes, when they refer to themselves as the “Reality-Based Community”, they apparently mean some sort of observer-dependent reality that changes and fluctuates in a close correlation with American politics.

                  As Adam Savage says, “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”

                  1. The leftist “reason-based community” **** always made me laugh/cry. We have faith in the reason of glorious comrade Marx. The Little Red book guarantees it!

          2. Krugman won his Nobel for work demonstrating that nations that attempt to engage in what is colloquially called “Industrial Policy” experience poor results.

            That is practically Friedmanesque work.

            Winning a Nobel for bashing statist intervention in the economy doesn’t increase your credibility for writing daily newspaper pieces demanding MORE statist intervention in the economy.

            It’s as if someone won the Nobel for inventing an artificial heart and then turned around and opened an all-you-can-eat lard store.

            1. “Eat More Lard! It’s endorsed by a Nobel-Winning Scientist and MD!”

              1. I knew a girl who worked at a Mcdonald’s where some dude was boinking the blocks of vegetable shortening. Everyone was wondering where all those holes were coming from.

                1. Duly added to my list of ‘things I did not need to know.’

              2. Lard is good for you, fool.

            2. Anyone think Krugman was body snatched?

              1. I think he was the guy working at McDonald’s.

            3. Except for the fact that eating lard has nothing to do with CVD.

              1. I’m a tailor, not a doctor.

                The important thing is that you understood the analogy. That means it conveyed its semantic content correctly.

            4. It’s as if someone won the Nobel for inventing an artificial heart and then turned around and opened an all-you-can-eat lard store.

              Well, no, if you invented an artificial heart you might get royalties or whatnot for every lard-based person needing an artificial heart.

              Krugman is more like someone who got a Nobel for a paper on how bad lard is for your heart and then opened that all-you-can-eat restaurant chain where every item on the menu is deep-fried in lard.

          3. Dangerous comment there. You don’t realize how many people here actually know something about economics.

            I suppose you’re accustomed to different surroundings.

  6. “They would have let the auto industry in America go down the tubes.”

    Really? So, if we hadn’t bailed out GM and Chrysler, then auto manufacturers such as Ford, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, BMW, Hyundai, and numerous other auto manufacturers, would stop producing cars in the United States?

    1. I think it goes beyond that.

      The GM brands were extremely valuable. Their installed plant was very valuable.

      If GM had entered bankruptcy without administration intervention, it is virtually certain that a new company using those brands and those plants would have emerged on the other side.

      The unions and bondholders would simply have taken much bigger haircuts. Particularly the unions, since the entire point of the bailout was to interfere in the standard bankruptcy process in order to protect union interests.

      1. Absolutely certain. For the car buffs, remember how many people over how many decades tried to keep the Studebaker Avanti name alive (into the 1980’s I believe). The idea that brands like Corvette, Cadillac, Chevrolet would have simply disappeared is ludicrous.

      2. My best friend in high school’s uncle is a senior VP at Crysler. A few years ago when GM discontinued the Oldesmobile brand, his uncle and some other execs put together a package to buy the name from GM and continue the brand as their own company. GM said no even though the offer for the brand was in the hundreds of millions of dollars. They said no under pressure from the UAW because the UAW didnt’ want a non union car company to start up in the US.

        Y

        1. Yep – the UAW’s ass still hurts from Toyota/Honda, which they’ve NEVER been able to organize. Much less Hyundai/Merc/BMW/etc. They’re right foked lately, the UAW….

          1. Foreign cars are looking better every day…

        2. Dammit, that sucks!!! I’m a huge Oldsmobile fan…had a 1966 four door Cutlass that was my favorite car to date. The Toronado, the Rocket V8, the turbocharged F85…they were one of the neatest divisions GM had (they were the “experimental” division, they got to try out all sorts of different stuff.)

      3. the only real value GM has IMO is onstar. Those dipshits could license or sell off Onstar and probably come out much better.

      4. Unions instead of bond holders. That’s what they were afraid of. So they stole 30 billion from secured bond holders and gave it to the unions.

    2. “They would have let the auto industry in America go down the tubes.”

      “They would have let the UAW go down the tubes.”
      FIFY

  7. “Wasserman Schultz is bright”

    David I think you might want to rethink some of your assumptions here.

  8. One annoying thing about the internet:

    Given Wasserman-Schultz’ political and institutional history, it is a pretty good bet that she has previously endorsed SOME union Buy American campaign somewhere along the line.

    So if The Derider believes that we shouldn’t accuse Wasserman-Schultz of protectionist sympathies based on this one statement, I’m sure that there’s more evidence supporting that accusation out there somewhere.

    The problem is that the existence of THIS article makes it a pain in the ass to find it, because of the eleventy billion commentary pieces on this statement that are rendered up in the search results first when you search for “Debbie Wasserman-Schultz Buy American”.

    Fucking search engines, how do they work?

    1. That’s cuz you just got DeridONWND.

    2. March, 2006: “Democratic Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida proposes to ban any foreign ownership of property at U.S. ports […]”

      Her name was also attached to a 2009 bill supporting “a review and renegotiation of all existing trade deals” with an aim towards protectionism.

      So, it might not be Truth, but it is truthy.

  9. Ms. Wasserman Shulz forgot to say, “They tuk rrr jeeeerrrrrrbbbssszz!!one!!”

    So I’ll say it for her: “They tuk rrr jeeeerrrrrrbbbssszz!!one!!”

    You’re welcome, Ms. W-S.

    1. Also, I did not mean to misspell your name, Ms. Wasserman Shultz. Sorry about that…

  10. I bought a new Toyota Camry less than a month ago. I got hell for it from my uncle who said “It’s a Jap car… come on!”

    I commented that I did not want to buy POS American cars from manufacturers that were bailed out by USG… and hell, most of those cars are made outside of the US anyway.

    My Camry was assembled in Kentucky, and 70% of the materials used were from the US. Am I not supporting American workers by my purchase? Hell, there’s even a Toyota engine plant here in Huntsville.

    He made the comment about Ford (did not get bailout money) and how they are the best selling trucks… okay, most of their sales come from fleet purchases, especially government fleet, which are required to ‘Buy American.’ Plus, how many different models are in the F-series? Pfft. Besides, it’s a FORD. I will never buy a Ford POS. If Ford was the last auto manufacturer on the planet, I would either walk or ride a bike.

    1. Ford “Point of Sale”? Huh?

      1. “Piece of Shit”.

        1. *adjusting your sarc detectors*

    2. Am I not supporting American workers by my purchase?

      Exactly. Japanese auto manufacturers produce more vehicles in the United States, than produced by the Big 3.

      1. His reasoning is that “the money goes back to Japan.” I really don’t care. It will probably get back here anyway. I don’t see him feeling guilty about his Japanese TVs, his Sony Playstation, Nintendo Wii, or any other product not made in America. What’s so special about cars?

        1. Maybe, much of that money stays in the US too. The Big 3 make a lot of money from cars that the manufacture and produce in foreign countries.

          The “Buy American” argument may have had some merit, back in the days when foreign cars were imported to the US, because this might have had an effect on American jobs. That argument goes out the window when foreign owned companies are produced domestically.

    3. FORD stands for “Fire On a Rainy Day”.

      Ford sucks.

      1. Found On Road Dead

        1. Fix Or Repair Daily

          1. F***ed Over Rebuilt Dodge

            will also accept
            F***ing Old Rebuilt Dodge

        2. Fix Or Repair Daily

          1. You can say THAT again

          2. You can say that again.

      2. IT is Fix or Repair Daily. And Fords are great cars. They always near the top in reliability.

        1. I had a Ford [OK, a Mercury, but it’s the same thing] catch on fire on a rainy day, so I’m sticking with that one.

          The only brand of car lower in my eyes is Volvo. Fucking pieces of garbage. [Walks away grumbling about Volvo transmissions, electrical systems, heating and cooling systems, etc.]

          1. You’re gonna bitsh about a Volvo Air Conditioner? Fer chrissakes, cut the Swedes some slack – the damned things are practically built at the Arctic Circle! Oh. like THEY need air conditioners. . .

            1. He said “*heating* and cooling systems.”

            2. I have two main bitches about the Volvo heating and cooling system:

              1. It sucks.

              2. If any tiny part of it fails, the engine overheats. And if a Volvo engine overheats, it’s not like a regular car engine where you just go get the hoses or the radiator fixed and put more coolant in it. Oh no. If the engine overheats for EVEN A MOMENT, the gaskets all burn out and the cylinders warp and you need a whole new engine.

              Volvos suck.

          2. Vulva, the preferred ride of the pantload liberal.

          3. I once had two Volvo 850s at the same time … the horror, the horror.

        2. I have no complaint with Fords. I have a 2001 Explorer with nearly 150,000 miles on it that has only ever had just routine maintainence and it still runs pefectly fine.

          1. it’s an anomaly.

            1. 1995 Ford Exploder. 133k + miles. Oil change and new tires. Keeps going and going.

            2. I once owned a ’97 Mountaineer – drove it from 64k to 114k miles with only one repair – a transmission seal needed to be replaced for – if I remember correctly, it was a cheap repair.

              My current Mercury Grand Marquis has been a little worse with a broken ball-joint and a the heater speed-control needing replacement.

          2. I’ll see your Explorer and raise you an 83 DATSUN 280ZX with just shy of rollin over 250,000 miles on the original drivetrain. Alternators don’t count.

            1. Oh, and 28MPG while I’m watching most Fords fade into tiny rear view mirror artifacts. . .

              1. That ’93 Mustang 5.0 passing you with a gazillion miles on it (never had the tappet covers off) @24mpg but way faster than your Z car was me….:)

        3. Pfft. You’re never going to convince me that they are good vehicles.

          1. Huh. Reminds me of your close-minded uncle bitching about Japanese cars without a real reason.

            I love it when people vomit those Ford-bashing colloqualisms; it loudly broadcasts that they are an individual who does not do much legitimate product research, and is extremely perceptible to ‘branding’, to use a marketing term.

        4. And Fords are great cars. They always near the top in reliability.

          Maybe they’ve gotten less sucky recently. I’ve owned a Pinto, a Thunderbird, and a Grand Marquis. All trouble-prone. Never again will I buy a UAW-built car.

          1. It’s been pretty recent, yeah. Mid-90’s and up, mostly.

            No one can be blamed for having a hangover from anything Detroit late 70’s to mid 80’s.

      3. “You know what Ford stands for, don’t you? Fix It Again, Tony.”

        1. Despite trying, I lol’ed at this. Crap.

        2. That is FIAT Warty.

          1. That’s from a King of the Hill episode years ago. PWND

            1. lol

    4. Really? Because Ford’s reliability is damn near right next to Toyota’s nowadays. Them and Buick.

      And Toyota is slipping. Plus your Camry is ugly and boring.

      Also, I’m awesome and you’re short.

      And my dad can beat up your dad.

    5. In defense of ford they have done very well these past few years in the reliability rating and I believe their focus was considered the best of their class. Ultimately, assuming that a japanse brand car is good and an american brand car is a POS is just plain dumb. I think Toyota has shown us that they put out a lot of lemons this last decade, they just did a good job hiding the fact that they had done so. Also, almost every car bought in the US was made in the US. Fords or GM bought in Europe were not made in America. The ‘foreign’ car you might be driving was.

      1. When car shopping earlier this year, the Honda I bought was put together in Ohio, and the Ford I consdered was put together in Mexico. These days, to say that almost any car is from a particular country is splitting some very fine hairs.

      2. I think Toyota has shown us that they put out a lot of lemons this last decade, they just did a good job hiding the fact that they had done so.

        No, some Democratic politicians have lately done a good job of bashing Toyotas. Own three Toyotas, all built in the last decade or so, including one with 120K miles, and all those buggers are reliable and solid.

        1. Not talking about the acceleration thing. The non-rustproofed frames, the engine sludge issue, the piss-poor interiors, etc.

      3. Interesting how the quality of Japanese cars went down when they started producing them in the US, isn’t it?

  11. In Wasserman’s defense, to act as the DNC chair and repeat their talking points without noting the irony and flaws in logic takes a special kind of stupidity.

    Wasserman has that kind of stupid.

    1. Along with a really fat ass and thunder thighs that make Hillary and the Terminator look like bulimic fashion models. The one small consolation we can enjoy is that most of her interviews are waist up only affairs.

      1. We could solve our entitlement problem just by putting Debbie W-S on all TV channels at regular intervals. The grating sound of her voice would cause millions of people to kill themselves, thereby saving us from paying a ton of money for their Medicare and SS.

  12. “The Derider”. Just for the lulz.

    lulz!

    ‘The Derider”! That’s cute!

    1. Watch out. You’re about to get PWND.

      1. Pwnage is right around the corner!

        1. Actually, pwnage is more of a metaphorical concept, and therefore it’s nonsensical to talk about it hiding behind corporeal objects like corners. PWND

          1. That some like something Glenn Beck would spew. PWND!

            1. nah, he’d make it seem like a question. PWN4G3 is just around the corner, or is it?!

              1. And then he would have a live studio audience comprised of nubs who’ve experienced the PWN4G3 first hand in the private sector, and would draw diagrams on the chalkboard linking PWN4G3 to Soros, back to Obama, and then back to the NEA.

      2. Thanks, Warty – I’m steeling myself against the onslaught from the anonopussy….

        1. I will be butt-pwnage. He is very interested in butts, it seems. Probably because mommy gave him an enema very time he was naughty. And he had to hold it and it hold it and not let out a drop until she told him to.

          1. What do you think, is this Dan T? The smugness and impotence is about the same.

            1. I’m thinking it’s definitely a regular with a new name. Probably to escape mom checking the ‘puter.

              “The Dereider! She doesn’t know THAT nom de guerre! Off to battle those saucy Reasonoids!” Fag.

              1. I get it. Good “Reason” insults are homophobic or misogynistic. Duly noted.

                1. Ow ow ow ow ow. Oh, Derider, please stop. You’re killing me. No, no, please no more. You pwnage with the best of them. Hurr durr hurr.

            2. Definitely Dan. T. The same complete abandonment of even trying to come up with an argument that’s been going on since the initiation of the Scotch Hamilton sockpuppet.

              1. Also, the initials are reversed. CLEVERWND

              2. I’ll stick with my guess it’s Tony.

                1. No way. Tony’s way smarter than this.

                  1. Tony’s way smarter than this.

                    No he isn’t.

                    1. Tony is a lot of things, but dumber than Dan T isn’t one of them.

                  2. Noted for the record. At 1:01PM on the 1st of July, 2011, Warty paid Tony a compliment. This has to be one of the signs the apocalypse is near.

                    1. You got that, Warty? You gotta come back on here in 30 days and compliment Tony.

                      [turns off pedantic asshole ray]

                    2. pedantic asshole ray

                      aka PWNAGE.

        2. Circle the wagons! He hasn’t tasted the Rand-ade.

          1. Ouch. Oh no, please stop. You’re killing me to death.

            I DONE BEEN PWNED!!!!!!!11on1!!111we!!!1one!elenvty!!!

          2. HAHAHAHAHA! NOT REALLY PWNED!!

            THEREFORE, THE DEREIDER HAS BEEN…..

            PPPPPPWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNED!!!!! PWNAGE!

  13. For those who think everything we buy should be made in America, I have a solution. Everything made in America gets a US Flag stamped on it. Then law enforcement can come into people’s houses looking for items without the stamp. Anyone with items not stamped would be arrested. Would that work? 😉

    1. This is a BRILLIANT idea, Vic. What could possibly go wrong?

      1. They’d still oppress German Shepard owners, justifying shooting their dogs because they weren’t really ‘American’. My Boston Terrier would be safe, however.

        1. Oo – I hadn’t thought of this. My Labs, technically Canucks, even though they were born in the US?

          I’m thinking the dachshund mix is a goner….:(

          1. Would the average cop know where Pomerania is ?

            1. Sounds pretty foreign. Better pop a cap in it just to be sure.

              1. Better nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

                1. The ultimate PWNED

      2. “”This is a BRILLIANT idea, Vic. What could possibly go wrong?””

        These days, probably not much due to what isn’t wrong anymore.

    2. In this new “War on Imports”, wouldn’t the feds also need to go after the people who sell foreign contraband? This would require a new federal agency, the Department of Unauthorized Merchandise (DUM). DUM would have to work with other countries, and provide them aid, so they could go after the distributors at the source. This would lead to a black market for foreign imports, resulting in the rise of gang violence. Also, our jails would fill up with non-violent offenders, who happened to be in possession of illegal imports. In the end, the only way to stop the scourge of illegal foreign products, would be to give law enforcement the means to access suspected violators bank records, and monitor their electronic communications.

      1. Good idea. “We” need another war. War on Imports – I like it!

        Well done, citizen!

  14. Gotta agree with Fluffy and free2booze on this one – the politicians didn’t ‘save’ the auto industry in North America so much as they seized an opportunity for quid pro quo to their reliable union toadies in the form of a rather sizeable taxpayer funded government jobs program.

    Often wonder why I’m even astonished that politicians will insist that a dumb idea is the solution for really fucked up ones, usually theirs.

    The auto thing is one example. The ‘stimulus’ was another. All otehr gripes aside, I consider two of the most fucked up things Bush did was a) go along with the galactically stupid ethanol idea, and 2) nopt throw a panicked Hank Paulson out of his office after telling him to calm the fuck down, and then let the geeks on Wall Street that enjoyed the high life cause the trusted Barney and Chris Dodd pay the piper when the whole thing imploded.

    I’d be interested to laugh at anyone willing to step up and insist that ANY governmental special intervention in, well just about anything screeched about as a ‘problem’ has resulted in a good outcome, or at the least re-hash the imaginary apocalyptic results we would have seen if they hadn’t. You know, doomsday scenarios such as cheaper, better built cars, because the old line US automakers that are still being bled dry by their pampered and entitlement seeking work force was told in no uncertain terms where to step the fuck off.

  15. I pray for the day the UAW goes tits up.

    1. Taxpayers are going to get it in the neck if they do, either directly by a straight-up bail-out to keep them going or by the fedgov absorbing their medical and pension promises.

      Not that I want to see them not go under, but I’d rather it be during a historical epoch where they would pay for their cronyism and greed, not me.

      1. No, my prayers include a clause that says the American public turns against the UAW, and the UAW leadership is carted off to prison.

        1. Noted. 🙂

  16. Those goddamned fools should have bailed out Hudson. Those were goddamned good cars.

    1. What about me ?

      1. LOL my parents’ first car was a 1948 Studebaker. They hated it. It was stolen once but the thief returned it, to everyone’s disappointment.

        1. Too bad the Big Three killed the Tucker. The tech in that car was only about 20 years ahead of it’s time.

          1. tuckers are POS jokes that appeal only to non-car savvy people

    2. You’re forgetting someone.

      1. Screw you buddy, I got dibs.

        1. Punks…

          1. Steam is the FUTURE! Wait!!! WAAAAAAAIIIIIIIT!!!!

            1. Hmph. No love?

              1. Ahem….*tap tap tap*

              2. Nope. None.

            2. No! Refrigeration is the future!

              1. What am I chopped liver? wait, don’t answer that.

  17. Why SHOULD there be a domestic auto industry? We’ve survived, and very nicely at that, not making TV’s, radios, most clothing, etc. in the U.S. Why, with the exception of union protectionism, and by default, Democrat relection, should we worry about not making cars in the U.S.?

    Also, to those using “dipshit”, etc., you are only showing your own childish nature, not disproving anyone’s argument.

    1. My father worked and slaved day in and day out in the factory so I wouldn’t have to, and I think it’s a goddamned shame that young people today don’t have the opportunity to do the same.

      1. Old Guy Feeding On Squirrels would have been better.

    2. I remember when Zenith died. I didn’t care then. I don’t care now. The world will be a better place when Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or Subaru gets pick the bones clean on the GM carcas.

      1. This.

        Then, their bones will be picked clean by Kia and Hyundai. Circle of Life.

    3. Also, to those using “dipshit”, etc., you are only showing your own childish nature, not disproving anyone’s argument.

      P.S. In case anyone replies to this, their responses will almost assuredly be ad homs, thereby conceding my points and showing the childish, anti-intellectual nature of libertarians. Dozens of comments here have shown that the phrase “fascist libertarian” isn’t an oxymoron.

  18. I agree to buy american but we have a problem with the price because for exampel a t shirt from china is cheap and the same t shirt produced in usa has a higher price.

  19. If it were up to the candidates for president on the Republican side, we would be driving foreign cars

    Fucking Chapter 11 bankruptcy hearings, how do they work?

  20. “If it were up to the candidates for president on the Republican side, we would be driving foreign cars,” Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz explained while defending the protectionist auto/union bailout.

    And what is wrong with that? I bought a Toyota Tacoma last year. Get over it, honey.

    It’s funny how things change. I’m old enough to remember when any liberal worth his/her salt drove a foreign car: a VW Beetle (the original one), a Honda Civic, etc. The only people I remember yelling “buy American” and bitching about “rice burners” were conservatives (who were of course condemned as racist).

  21. Buy American? Sell American!

    People often say that tariffs are “taxes,” but another way to look at it is that protectionism is price control. So, instead of controlling prices to make foreign products less affordable, why not control them to make domestic ones more affordable? In another words, instead of forcing our country’s consumers to “buy America,” i.e., pay higher prices, why not force its companies to sell American, i.e., charge lower ones? That’s how you fight “cheap imports” ? with cheaper domestics, not expensive ones.

    And the objection would be what ? production costs? If we can blank out the factors that determine whether you or I can afford to purchase a product, why can’t we instead blank out the factors that determine whether a business can afford to make it? And since those include labor, here’s the best part: When American products are priced (by the coercive state, not the free market) lower than imports, all the jobs at GM ? from company head to company janitor ? will be protected. Honestly, what’s not to love?

    The bottom line is this: If GM isn’t going to give each of us a free car, there’s no reason why we should give GM a free ride, i.e., a “level playing field” where their competition is priced out of our reach. Let’s not have any nonsense that that car represents impoverishing “consumption,” while that ride constitutes enriching “production.” If American CEOs don’t consider it their patriotic duty to charge lower prices, then it’s damn well not our duty to pay higher ones.

    1. CEO’s understand the need to lower prices when their products aren’t competitive it’s the unionized labor that won’t allow them to lower prices.

  22. I, for one, couldn’t care LESS where an effin’ car was made, or produced, or designed, or assembled. They’re effin’ appliances these days; chromeless, soulless 100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty’d refrigerators on wheels.

    Now, get off my lawn.
    *shakes a cane in the air*

    1. chromeless, soulless

      This is why my Ninja ZX14 and ZRX1200R are now so important! Fast Motorcycles: Soul to Go…

      1. I am seriously consider a ZX14 to replace my gorgeous, fast, unreliable Britbike. I take it you’re happy with the Ninja?

      2. Triumph Tiger 1050 — Caspian blue — 25,000 trouble-free miles — 50 mpg (when I don’t romp it) — glorious, soulful, triple-cylinder exhaust note — made in jolly, old England.

        What’s my choice of American-made bikes? Oh yeah, Harley and Victory. Um, no thanks…

        1. Daytona 1200 SE. A long list of bizarre issues. Running good for now, but the next major issue gets it consigned to the dustbin of history.

          But I have to admit, when it’s running well, it’s a goddamned amazing machine. And still one of the best looking bikes I’ve ever laid eyes on.

      3. Meh, I’ll stick w/ my Hayabusa. But then again, I’ve always owned Zukis. My fav being an 88 gixxer 750.

    2. 2006 350Z; plenty of spirit in that one.

      1. My son loves the new Z car (370 is it?). I have a ’11 Mustang GT convertible. It’ll get you excited. Fun car.

        1. Yes, the new version is the 370Z. The 370Z roadster is gorgeous, but coupe isn’t as attractive as the 350Z.

          I’d consider getting a 370Z, except my five-year old 350Z with 50K miles is still running flawlessly. I’ll probably wait for the next refresh (assuming a 390Z or something).

        2. The last American nameplate that I bought was a late 80’s mustang. I know that a lot can change in 15 years, but Ford is still posion for me. And there is no way I am ever buying a GM or Chrysler piece of shit now.

          1. Ninja. NinjaNinjaNinja. Works EVERY time.

  23. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 12:34PM|#
    “So there’s no difference between a car that is made with 80% domestic parts and one that’s made with 20% domestic parts to the US economy?”

    No, there isn’t.

  24. The derider needs a lesson in comparistive advantage.

    Money not spent on cars (or parts of cars) is money spent on something else. Overall welfare increases when you do things more efficiently. If it’s not efficient to produce cars with all American made parts, then American consumers will either shop elsewhere or experience a net loss of welfare.

    Prosperity is not a function of how many job are “produced”. It is a function of how well consumers needs are met by existing resources.

    1. “Jobs are a mean not the ends in themselves
      People work to live better, to put food on the shelves
      Real growth mean production of what people demand
      That’s entrepreneurship, not your central plan”

    2. I’m not suggesting that using 100% American parts would be more efficient from a welfare perspective than using 80%.

      Prosperity is, in a very real sense, a function of how many jobs are produced. This is why Obama is “doing a bad job on the economy”. If we look at GDP and the stock market, he’s doing great. When you look at the labor market, he’s not. Jobs are important.

      1. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:01PM|#
        “Prosperity is, in a very real sense, a function of how many jobs are produced.”

        Bullshit.

        1. I eagerly await a full-throated defense of Obama’s handling of the economy, then. The stock market is up and GDP is growing since he took office. Will reason be posting an article like this tomorrow: “Hey Republicans, stop complaining about the unemployment rate, it’s meaningless!”

          I’m not holding my breath.

          1. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:10PM|#
            “I eagerly await a full-throated defense of Obama’s handling of the economy, then…”
            I eagerly await you finding a brain cell.

            1. Is the idea that the President isn’t directly responsible for everything that happens in the economy really that hard to grasp?

              Even if I were going to pretend that “GDP growth” and “more consumption” were the same thing, that doesn’t mean I should be “giving Obama credit”. Or blame for the low unemployment. The economies not some machine that the President pokes to produce different outcomes.

              I can judge him on specific things he’s actually done to help/hurt general economic conditions – like, in the case of this thread, bailing out GM- without pretending all economic activity is derived from a central authority.

            2. GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama. If you don’t use unemployment as a measure, what economic indicators tell you he’s doing a bad job?

              1. Didn’t say he was doing a “bad job”.

                Personally think the overwhelming majority of his policies have been very expensive utter wastes of time that haven’t hurt or helped economic recovery. I still oppose most of those policies since I think most of them are laying the seeds for future failure (either from debt or the more insidious “now American industries/banks have implicit guarantees of government support if they fail”, a policy which has just done so much good in the financial sector.)You should judge each of his policies individually using whatever means you can – judging his Presidency as some aggregate whole by overall “economic indicators” is ludicrous.

                And, yeah, when you take the Presidency in the middle of a recession, GDP will usually rise under you. That doesn’t mean you’re the cause – business cycles mean some Presidents get to look good and some get to look bad and most of them don’t do a fucking thing.

              2. Isn’t government spending included in GDP?

              3. “GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama.”

                GDP is up because government expenditures are through the fucking roof, one of the main components of processing the bullshit economic index we call ‘GDP’

                Oh, gee, look at that, still higher under bush than it was Obama, despite the massive corporate welfare and bailouts.

                1. DJIA on Bush’s inauguration 10588
                  DJIA on Obama’s inauguration 8281
                  DJIA today 12290

                  FACTPWNAGE

                  1. You can’t even read charts, can you?

                    1. I’m right, you’re wrong. Give up.

                    2. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 7:16PM|#
                      “I’m right, you’re wrong. Give up.”

                      You’re a stupid shit, I’m not. Give up.

                  2. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 6:18PM|#
                    “DJIA on Bush’s inauguration 10588
                    DJIA on Obama’s inauguration 8281
                    DJIA today 12290”

                    Oh, oh look! Stupid shit hopes to make a living picking cherries!

              4. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:23PM|#
                “GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama”

                This from a shit bag claiming an econ degree.

          2. The stock market actually isn’t up that much, denominated in gold.

            If you let me devalue our currency 90%, I bet I can increase the nominal GDP and nominal Dow Jones too.

            1. If you look through my golden libertarian decoder ring, Obama really is a Muslim!

              1. So what you’re saying is that it’s not appropriate to compensate for currency devaluation when talking about asset price movements?

                Wow, you really knocked ’em dead earning your econ degree, didn’t you?

                1. No he’s saying your right-wing Koch-onomics is nothing more than Sarah Palin witchcraft, duh..

                  1. No, I’m saying that gold is an incredibly volatile commodity and using it to compare purchasing power is idiotic.

                    1. So, pray tell, how you determine the value of an asset over time with an even more volatile currency?

                    2. You aggregate a lot of consumer goods and take the average. Use that index as a benchmark.

                      See “consumer price index”, “purchasing power parity”

                  2. Sy|6.1.11 @ 5:24PM|#
                    “No he’s saying your right-wing Koch-onomics is nothing more than Sarah Palin witchcraft, duh..”

                    As opposed to pointing out your lefty bullshit, is, well, bullshit?

                    1. You’re so mad you’re missing obvious sarcasm.

              2. no, he is a keynsian

                1. Me and most economists.

                  1. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 7:41PM|#
                    “Me and most economists.”

                    Cite, shit bag?

                    1. “Cite, shit bag?”
                      He can’t because his stupid ass CPI is in his mind a gold standard and water-tight case for a stable dollar.
                      He refuses to see a world in which failed economic theory is responsible for the devaluation of a nation’s currrency.

                    2. “Cite, shit bag?”
                      He can’t because his stupid ass CPI is in his mind a gold standard and water-tight case for a stable dollar.
                      He refuses to see a world in which failed economic theory is responsible for the devaluation of a nation’s currrency.

      2. You are so right!

      3. I don’t care about the nominal rise of GDP, that can be done by digging a bunch of fucking ditches, I care about the real rise of GDP. Which only really rises when something of actual value has been produced and consumed.

        1. No, nominal GDP isn’t corrected for inflation. Real GDP is. This has nothing to do with “actual value” as you are trying to define it.

          THANK YOU ECON DEGREE

      4. Prosperity is, in a very real sense, a function of how many jobs are produced.

        Garbage. You can dig ditches all day long and you won’t make anyone more prosperous. The jobs are only useful if they are jobs matching resource utilization to consumer demand.

        Jobs are great, but they have to be worthwhile jobs. Government make-work is a waste of time, capital, and resources, that makes society no better off. The jobs must come from the private sector, which is to say, they must come from actual human beings making millions of individual choices about what they want and need. Not from some bureaucrat allocating people to work on X to give them something to do.

    3. Hazel Meade|6.1.11 @ 1:49PM|#
      “The derider needs a lesson in comparistive advantage…”
      S/he and every other statist ignoramus.
      David Freidman points out we make cars two ways: Assemble them in Detroit or grow them in Iowa.
      Load that corn on a ship, and somewhere it the Pacific, the corn turns into Hondas and they land in Long Beach.
      The economy is better off taking the ones less subsidized, which is getting hard to figure.

      1. Hidden Order, Ptolemaic Trade Theory, Pages 69-70. I read it getting my economics degree.

        1. …my economics degree.

          Well now that we all know you’ve got an econ degree, we should all just admit you’re right and we’re stoopid. After all, people with econ degrees know a lot more about economic stimulus and making money than actual producers, right?

          Face it, you just got PPPPPPPWWWWWWNNNNNNEEEEEEEDDDDD!!!!!!!!!111!!1!21@!!!11!1ELEVEN!!!!! Now, go get your shinebox.

          1. Do what you want with the knowledge that I’ve got an econ degree.

            I think it’s pretty funny that you make a distinction between “people with econ degrees” and “actual producers”, as though flipping burgers at McDonalds gives you some proletarian econ knowledge that an academic somehow cannot grasp.

            1. First off, modern econ degrees are about as useful as psychology degrees. They prepare you for nothing but cocktail parties and college socials. And by that, I mean you will be the guy carrying around a tray asking people if they’d like another drink. It is a non-productive field full of pseudo-intellectuals who like to impress their knowledge upon each other and ultimately contribute nothing of substance.

              That said, I doubt you’re fucking stupid enough to think that I equate producers to the guy working the grill at McD’s. Either you knew what I meant by it: those who risk their own capital to produce goods and/or services to the open market and the people they hire to run those companies, or you don’t, in which case you are too retarded to give any more credence to.

              Which is it? Are you disingenuous or are you fucking retarded?

              1. I’m going to pick disingenuous, since you’ve clearly monopolized “fucking retarded” in this thread.

                Milton Friedman was a “non-productive” “pseudo-intellectual” who contributed nothing of substance? What about his son, David, the economist and author?

                Why is an assistant manager who tells people to make burgers a “producer”, but the actual burger producers are not?

                You’re a moron.

                1. Why is an assistant manager who tells people to make burgers a “producer”, but the actual burger producers are not?

                  Oo Oo! I know this one!

                  Actual human productivity hasn’t moved that much since the invention of the printing press dramatically spiked literacy rates.

                  We’re only marginally smarter and more physically capable than we were a couple of centuries ago. Average height and weight has risen in countries with “the western diet”, average IQ has crept up, things like that – but the changes have been minor in the grand scheme of things.

                  But overall productivity is orders of magnitude higher than it was a couple of centuries ago.

                  How can that be?

                  Well, there are only two other inputs to consider: capital, and organization. If the increase in productivity can’t be attributed to fundamental changes in human beings, it has to be attributable to accumulated capital and improved organization (including greater deployment of information).

                  So, yeah, participating in the command structure of an enterprise means that you are contributing to that greater productivity structure. Flipping burgers when directed to do so means that you are piggybacking on that greater productivity structure. Sorry, but those are the breaks.

                  1. Dude you forgot the technology input. Construction workers aren’t more efficient today than 5 centuries ago solely because of organizational improvements, they’re more efficient because they have machine tools, interchangeable parts, and blueprints.

                    Sorry, Econ Fail.

                    1. Yeah, all those ‘technological inputs’ you call power tools and interchangeable parts are capital.

                    2. Yes, in a sense that every physical object that a company owns is capital.

                      No, in the sense that the accumulation of capital is completely distinct from the rate of technological advancement.

                    3. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 7:29PM|#
                      “Yes, in a sense that every physical object that a company owns is capital.
                      No, in the sense that the accumulation of capital is completely distinct from the rate of technological advancement.”

                      Shorter shit bag:
                      “I can make up some qualification that sorta makes me right, if you hold your mouth right”.

                    4. You have added precisely zero content to this thread. You may disagree with me, but I have the courtesy to make warranted arguments.

              2. He’s got an econ degree but thinks that it’s due to Obama that the economy has turned around since hitting bottom so I’m gonna go with retarded as the answer.

                1. Shorter The Deridier:
                  “My President is responsible for market upticks and everyone else is responsible for panics and downswings!”

                  It never occurred to him that a publicly-traded companies’ very existence on depends on whether they can maintain or increase the value of their stock, and the most successful ones will make damn sure they can adapt to a changing market.

          2. “Now, go get your shinebox.” My favorite movie of ALL time.

        2. The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:20PM|#
          “Hidden Order, Ptolemaic Trade Theory, Pages 69-70. I read it getting my economics degree.”

          Shame it was wasted on such an ignoramus.

          1. I feel the same way in regards to you and the right to post comments.

            1. So given that you have an ECON degree, I take it that you agree with us that protectionism is pretty fucking stupid, and that its alternatives have little to no empirical evidence to validate their claims that protectionist policies will help the economy, right?

  25. As a motorcycle rider I’d be hard pressed to “Buy American”.

    1. Yeah, kinda sad that Buell’s out of the picture now. Guess I’ll go Indian and get me a Royal Enfield. Or Italian. Or British.

  26. So as a supervillain, what does “The Derider” look like in the comix? I’m thinking a Merlin hat, wearing pants held up with a rope, with Depends underneath. And with one of those 70’s satin jackets….”The Derider’s” has “Fridays” stitched on the left chest (remember when they competed against SNL back in the day? “The Derider” does!)

    Mmm – orange Converse All Stars (canvas, of course). Striped multi-colored funkenstein socks.

    Drives a brown 1973 Chevy Impala (4 door, bien sur) with a deteriorating tan vinyl top.

    Clearly a white guy. Old.

    It gets a little fuzzy after that. Anyone else have a clear vision?

    1. I actually liked Fridays better than SNL

      1. Michael Richards FTW

        1. I still remember him playing army out in the sandbox.

    2. Whatever turns you on.

      1. First attempt at a catch phrase?

        1. PRNDL

    3. Most of those cultural references had disappeared by the time I was born. I think I’d have MC hammer pants and a boom-box that keeps playing “Das Kapital” on tape. I’d keep the depends, because who wants to waste time going to the bathroom? I’d rather be smashing imperialism!

      1. You mean the kind of imperialism where the governmnet uses its power to force people to buy the products of its empire?

        1. I feel like you missed the irony.

  27. Both y’all suck.

  28. -The Derider|6.1.11 @ 12:34PM|#
    So there’s no difference between a car that is made with 80% domestic parts and one that’s made with 20% domestic parts to the US economy?-

    Last time I looked at the new 2010 F-150’s at Happy Harry’s “Ford O Rama” here in Sleepytown a Parts Content Sticker stated that 55% of the parts were of North American origin. It did not state a % for The USA.
    How’s that for factual accuracy!
    Should I assume that this American Made truck has less than 50% parts from The USA?

  29. -Jim|6.1.11 @ 1:16PM “Also, to those using “dipshit”, etc., you are only showing your own childish nature, not disproving anyone’s argument.”

    If you want decorum watch a replay of last nights Heat-Maverick NBA game. You will never find it here!

    1. …or the Illinois State Legislature!!!

      http://thesouthern.com/news/lo…..002e0.html

  30. This lady is more entertaining than Howard Dean. It’s good to see the Democrats hiring a mouthpiece that stupid. Will enjoy watching them lose the presidency and the Senate in 2012.

    1. Yes, once Republicans control the presidency and legislature, we can return to the prosperity of the Bush years.

      1. Since Obama’s policies and Bush’s policies have been virtually identical, right down to the tax rates, if you didn’t like Bush’s economic policies you shouldn’t like Obama’s either.

        1. Was that intended for Esteban, or me?

          1. It works for both, really.

            1. Crickets…

  31. There is one plus for America to keep its car industry – the entertainment value of watching Top Gear rip some GM vehicle to shreds is worth paying a few trillions of taxpayer cash.

  32. GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama.

    Both of these are functions of borrowing and printing money (you realize that GDP includes government expenditures, yes? and that the stock market is up because QE has killed returns on debt, so capital has nowhere else to go, yes?).

    Back out the debt, and you’ll see an economy that has flatlined.

    As evidenced by the flatlined housing market and the flatlined employment market, to name just two. Also, every measure of GDP shows an economy that is seriously underperforming compared to previous contractions/recoveries. Banks are still failing at an appalling rate. The auto industry is selling something like 30% fewer cars than it should be, historically.

    My question is, why would any sane person think this administration’s economic policies have been anything other than a failure?

    1. Lloyd Benson might say, “if you let me write $1.4 trillion in hot checks, I’ll give you an illusion of prosperity too.”

    2. If your goal is the total state, the economy is irrelevant.

    3. “you realize that GDP includes government expenditures, yes?”

      Indeed it does and that is why GDP is a lousy measure of prosperity.

      It is Keynesean circular logic: government spending “boosts” the economy ans we’ll prove it by creating an economic measure that includes government spending.

      Government creates nothing. Government has nothing to spend (or give) except that which it has first taken away from somebody else.

      Government spending is merely a forced transfer payment. Any benefit to the trasferees is offset by the detriment to the transferors.

    4. A failure to what end? Reversing the Bush depression? How do you propose going about that?

      1. Considering that we are still in a depression when you look at the unaltered statistics, or shall we say the shadow statistics, I suggest a good healthy does of free market capitalism. It worked from 1776 to the 1920s.

        1. No, it didn’t, but life was so bad for most people in that era, people probably didn’t notice so much how awful and hamfisted the economy was. Modern economics wasn’t a socialist conspiracy to oppress you, it was a necessity for a civilized country.

          1. Nonsnese.

            The economy has always gone through cycles of expansion and contraction.

            All the ones that it went through in the era before big gov started meddling ended on their own.

            The longest depression the country has ever had was the one when government STARTED meddling in it in a big way.

            There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the performance of the economy has been improved in any way by government meddling relative to how it performed in the era before government meddling.

        2. The Panic of 1819
          The Panic of 1837
          The Panic of 1857
          The Panic of 1869
          The Panic of 1873
          The Panic of 1893

          1. Panics being defined as bank runs. All panics which you cited were short-term in nature and over rather quickly. A feature that has long since disappeared and been replaced by recessions, depressions, adjustments, and other bullshit terms that reflect ever longer and longer down cycles.

            1. Panics not being defined as bank runs. Panics being defined as recessions and depressions.

              The panic of 1819 lasted 4 years.
              The panic of 1837 lead to a 5 year depression.

              I’m not going to summarize the rest of history for you. You are clearly wrong.

      2. Tony|6.1.11 @ 5:35PM|#
        “Reversing the Bush depression?”

        Ah, that would be the Obama depression by now, shit bag.

        1. Ooh, no content, partisan loyalist, and constant ad-homs. You’re a winner.

          1. Damn, you’ve really got yourself pegged.

            1. HaHaHaHaHaHachHachHachHackkakkakkkkkkk (takes asthma medication and eats a turkey leg to calm anxiety)

  33. I’d love nothing more than to buy American. No doubt about that. So as soon as liberty and free, just markets once again define America, I’ll do just that.

  34. The mortgage, construction and building/architecture industries added to the prosperity of consumers and real GDP growth in the past decade and change.
    Historic numbers, and historic overbuilding. To say that Obama must magically turn the economy around in 2 years is impossible. We went through a 9 year building boom and 4 of that was overbuilding. The list of workers that benefited from that goes from plant nurserys to loan servicers. Most of the jobs lost in those industries are not comming back for 10 years.

    We are talking about small numbers of autoworkers. Most of the recession was caused by too big, too fast. The economy should have been slowed down in 2005. I’m sure most of you economic experts may not agree, but the truth from the “producers” is that things happened way too fast and too much.

    I find it interesting that smart people always talk about jobs and job growth, yet never mention historic production and development on all sizes and scales. Not just single family homes, but entire mini cities, like in Las Vegas. They rebuilt half of Las Vegas in 9 years, when it took 50 years to do it before.

  35. Mr Harsanyi either ignores or is unaware of the fact that through all those years of growth that made America exceptional we had tariffs to protect our industry and our workers. Ross Perot was right. That sucking sound your hear is the sound of jobs leaving.

    1. Just kidding. It’s me on Obama’s Weiner!

  36. ty rights, etc. seem like a more accurate measure of freedom than democracy.

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