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Politics

"Buy American" Is Un-American

We need more competition in the auto industry, not less.

David Harsanyi | 6.1.2011 12:00 PM

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Buy American! A conventional, well-intentioned, patriotically affirming sentiment. We've heard it all our lives. But unless you crave less competition, fewer choices, and higher prices, it's also a completely irrational one.

Naturally, then, as we kick off "Recovery Summer! Part Deux," the chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee says that buying homemade cars is a matter of national importance. "If it were up to the candidates for president on the Republican side, we would be driving foreign cars," Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz explained while defending the protectionist auto/union bailout. "They would have let the auto industry in America go down the tubes." (And by "we," Wasserman Schultz, proud American, is talking about herself and her sweet Japanese-made Infiniti FX35.)

As if that weren't enough, those who oppose this brand of corporate welfare, according to Wasserman Schultz, also reject the very idea of "American exceptionalism." Now, one might argue that those who claim we must bankroll a few politically favored companies because an entire manufacturing sector could collapse are the ones skeptical of American ingenuity, perseverance, and exceptionalism.

But God, evidently, loves the Volt and the Volt only. And Americans—people who can do almost anything, including, but not limited to, electing politicians who keep rotten companies buoyant for political gain—have a patriotic duty to buy poorly conceived automobiles. You have an obligation to insulate Washington's favorite companies from responsibility. For God and for country, taxpayers must purchase cars from corporations that have not come close—despite the contention of the administration—to paying back what they already owe you.

But hey, the car was assembled in Michigan. If that's not a sign of American exceptionalism, I don't know what is.

Even if Wasserman Schultz's "Buy American" rhetoric were genuine, it would be severely misguided. Every time we overpay for an American-made product (whatever it is), don't we also spend less on an array of other services and products that create jobs at home? Real jobs. Self-sustaining jobs. If we all mechanically bought American, wouldn't we allow manufacturers to avoid competition and rely on their locations rather than the excellence of their products? Sounds like the opposite of exceptionalism.

Companies on the dole also have incentive to please their benefactors in Washington—a place that has the power to offer more handouts or to stifle competition. Like much of modern liberalism these days, a socially responsible outcome is far more important than a profitable one. Business is for social good, not for profit-mongering. We have no clue what's good for us, anyway. These companies, though, have less incentive to keep prices low or to innovate or to meet consumer demand.

Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman once explained in his book Pop Internationalism that if he could stress one thing to students, it would be that "international trade is not about competition, it is about mutually beneficial exchange." Wasserman Schultz is bright, so she must know all about the counterproductive history of protectionism. Then again, when she says "Buy American," maybe she just means "Buy Union"—buy union because taxpayers subsidize GM and it pays workers and they subsidize unions that subsidize the right candidates. A mutually beneficial exchange.

Or maybe—like most Americans, however inclined they are to embrace populist rhetoric regarding trade during tough times—Wasserman Schultz acts rationally when spending her own money. Now if only that rationality could seep into her political life, we'd be a lot better off.

David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Blaze. Follow him on Twitter @davidharsanyi.

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David Harsanyi is senior editor of The Federalist and the author of the forthcoming First Freedom: A Ride through America's Enduring History with the Gun, From the Revolution to Today.

PoliticsNanny StateEconomicsPolicyLaborAutomobilesCongressFree TradeGlobalization
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  1. John   14 years ago

    In Wasserman's defense, it is not exactly like Infinity is a Japanese sounding name. How was she supposed to know it wasn't an American car? What is more American than Infinity? And besides she said people should by American sounding cars. So it is all good.

    1. The Derider   14 years ago

      She didn't say Americans should buy any sort of cars.

      She said that without the bailout, there wouldn't be a domestic auto industry.

      1. Warty   14 years ago

        Hey look, an idiot is confusing obnoxious niggling with being smart. Isn't that fucking special.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          Your butt still hurts from the fact-pwnage I gave you yesterday?

          1. bobchild   14 years ago

            Do people still seriously say "pwnage"?

            I thought that had pretty much joined "rad" in the list of "things people only say when they're trying to be 'ironic'"

            1. Fatty Bolger   14 years ago

              Oooh, burn!

              1. PS   14 years ago

                What a face!

          2. Sy   14 years ago

            Only you would count a serious reading comprehension deficiency as 'pwnage'. Go play some MW2 now.

      2. Fluffy   14 years ago

        And that's just as stupid.

        Maybe even more so.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          I'd rather argue about things that she actually said, rather than one of Glenn Beck's idiots' moronic interpretation of what she said.

          1. Warty   14 years ago

            No you wouldn't, dipshit. You'd rather bring up irrelevancies and then smugly claim victory.

            1. John   14 years ago

              That is his move. It is not like he has anything else. Got to go with your move.

              1. Warty   14 years ago

                PWNAGE

            2. The Derider   14 years ago

              You seem to think factual accuracy is irrelevant. That must make libertarianism much easier to swallow!

              1. Warty   14 years ago

                And Danny connects with a harsh insult! PWNAGE

                1. Britt   14 years ago

                  Oh look a new troll. Cool, let's see if he can step up his game though. I'm not amused so far.

                2. sage   14 years ago

                  All the talk about PWNAGE makes this clown sound like joe.

                  1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

                    He looms large!

                    1. Wind Rider   14 years ago

                      Could this be Tony?

                  2. SugarFree   14 years ago

                    He hasn't threatened to take a swing at me yet. Our talked about how well he did at the Short Bus State Debate Finals.

                    1. sage   14 years ago

                      I doubt he would show his gorilla mask around here, what with the stellar job Obama's doing.

        2. Trespassers W   14 years ago

          Curse your nimble hands etc. etc.

      3. John   14 years ago

        No domestic auto industry except for those millions of cars that BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, and Suburu produce in the US.

        Son, fat drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          There is more to the auto industry than simply putting cars together. Where do the parts for those foreign cars get made? Where do they get designed?

          1. John   14 years ago

            Where do you think the parts for a Ford come from? All over the world dipshit. No car is made in "one country".

            1. The Derider   14 years ago

              So there's no difference between a car that is made with 80% domestic parts and one that's made with 20% domestic parts to the US economy?

              1. Warty   14 years ago

                PWNAGE

                1. The Derider   14 years ago

                  Stop crying.

                  1. Warty   14 years ago

                    Actually, I haven't cried at all. I thought you cared about facts? PWND

              2. asdf   14 years ago

                What the fuck is it to you? Who cares if we make cars? We are the biggest manufacturer in the world despite being mostly a service based economy.

                1. Britt   14 years ago

                  Besides I thought leftists cared most about the stalwart proletarians on the assembly lines. Do they really want the fat cats to be American too?

                2. OO   14 years ago

                  derider - dont miss the hate. libtoids HATE union employees regardless of sector. the HATE is all that really matters for them.

                  1. Wind Rider   14 years ago

                    Well, that and a decently made Reuben Sammich. Not some half assed imitation, mind you.

                  2. DK   14 years ago

                    I don't have any problem with unions. Nor, would I venture, do any of the other "libtoids" on this site. Voluntary assembly is a great thing. However, when forced entry into unions, coercion, political favoritism, etc are involved, I have a problem with it. But I suppose that's far too nuanced a view and doesn't conform to Team Blue/Team Red false dichotomies, so you can't understand it. I'm just a dumb "libtoid", after all.

                    1. The Derider   14 years ago

                      Coercion and political favoritism are endemic to all parts of our economy, not just unionized labor.

                    2. Hazel Meade   14 years ago

                      Coercion and political favoritism are endemic to all parts of our economy, not just unionized labor.

                      Therefore, we need more government control of the economy. And make it more complex, too. Perhaps if we make the rules even more complex and obscure the amount of corruption will decrease.

                    3. Devil's Advocate   14 years ago

                      That still doesn't explain why "progressives" and liberals want to give MORE power to the government, so that we can have MORE coercion and political favoritism, with the end result that it is a better investment to have a good politician in your pocket than to produce a good product.

                    4. OO   14 years ago

                      wrong DK. libtoids on this site HATE union collective bargining, contractural due process, & freedom of association regardless of public or private sectors.

                    5. bobchild   14 years ago

                      "NAH UH YOU TOTALLY DO!!1!!!g"

                      Well argued, friend.

                    6. The Derider   14 years ago

                      Since you need the obvious spelled out for you...

                      kinnath|6.1.11 @ 1:02PM|#

                      I pray for the day the UAW goes tits up.

                    7. kinnath   14 years ago

                      Leave me out of your petty bullshit, dumbfuck.

                      The fact that I consider the UAW to be a criminal organization does not mean that I am opposed to collective bargaining.

                    8. Fluffy   14 years ago

                      Repeal the National Labor Relations Act and the Sherman and Clayton Acts and I will like collective bargaining just fine.

                    9. The Derider   14 years ago

                      So there's two people who hate organized labor... anyone else willing to prove bobchild wrong?

                    10. Fluffy   14 years ago

                      What's your basis for claiming that I hate organized labor?

                      I think it's perfectly natural that sellers of a product or service might try to combine their efforts to get a better price for their product or service in the market.

                      I just don't think this right should be available to ALL market participants and not just some.

                      I also think that if the buyers of their good or service can evade the combination effort by buying elsewhere, the members of the combination should not be able to compel continued purchases by whining to the NLRB.

                      If you achieve a closed shop or a collective bargaining contract by true bargaining, more power to you.

                    11. Fluffy   14 years ago

                      I just don't think this right should be available to ALL market participants and not just some.

                      Sorry, I got my negatives all tangled up there. This should not have the word "don't" in it.

                    12. Just an Engineer   14 years ago

                      How can you rationalize blindly hating corporations and yet loving unions? At its roots is a union not essentially a corporation that sells labor. How is a corporation monopolizing a market bad but a union monopolizing a labor market okay? Collective bargaining sounds a lot like price collusion especially when you don't allow any competition.

                    13. Devil's Advocate   14 years ago

                      Wrong. I don't know that a libtoid is, but I do HATE morons that are forced to rely on straw men in order to make a point.

                      The problem is that the term "collective bargaining" doesn't simply mean the right of people to band together and demand that they be dealt with collectively. Instead, "collective bargaining" is now a legal term of art for a system that deprives people of their freedom of contract, violates their due process rights, and violates their freedom of association rights. You can respect the right of people to associate freely while still reserving the right to tell those people to take a hike if their demands are unreasonable. Also, it is pretty ballsy to get up on a soapbox about due process when talking about the auto industry, considering that the Chrysler deal completely violated the due process rights of the bondholders in favor of the union.

      4. Trespassers W   14 years ago

        She said that without the bailout, there wouldn't be a domestic auto industry.

        Oh.

        That actually sounds a little sillier.

        1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

          What's Ford, Canadian?

          1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

            No. And Canada doesn't have more than three or four brands anymore, by the looks of it.

          2. John   14 years ago

            Those Canuks are willey Pro. you may think Ford is American, but that is exactly what they want you to think.

      5. Lord Humungus   14 years ago

        Ford never took bailout $$$ - one reason I'm driving one right now.

        1. Almanian   14 years ago

          Thank you. I have 6 Ford products, myself 🙂

          1. Lord Humungus   14 years ago

            and the last makers of a full-frame / RWD V8 car *sigh* I like my ghetto cruisers.

            1. Almanian   14 years ago

              Yeah, long live the Crown Vic/Gand Marquis/Town Car. I had a Town Car a couple years ago...black on black...EPIC. As my boss said, "You're the only guy under the age of 60 who can pull that off." 🙂 What a fun ride - like the '73 Olds 88 of my yute.

              1. Mark   14 years ago

                Yute? What's a yute?

                1. Almanian   14 years ago

                  In Australia, a Ute is a pickup. Here, it's whatever you want it to be!

                  1. Meiczyslaw   14 years ago

                    A Ute is an Indian. It's the tribe that Utah was named after.

                2. Bee Tagger   14 years ago

                  Oh yeah, you blend.

                  1. Mark   14 years ago

                    I wondered if anyone else would get the reference 🙂

                    1. Vinnie   14 years ago

                      Looks like those two youtthzz got the reference.

              2. prolefeed   14 years ago

                I had a Grand Marquis a few years back, before I bought my first of three Toyotas and had the epiphany that cars don't have to constantly be breaking down and doing annoying shit, just the UAW ones.

          2. Drax the Destroyer   14 years ago

            Yeah, I'll give a Ford a chance when I'm in the market for a car in...what's the average life of a Japanese car?...oh right, in ten years or so when mine finally crumbles like the Blues Brothers-mobile.

            1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

              I still have a 1995 Accord. Runs great. Probably will get a new Accord.

            2. prolefeed   14 years ago

              Oldest Toyota I have is my 1999 Camry. About 120K miles and still reliable as heck, albeit kinda dirty inside from a dozen years of getting abused by kids.

              My 2007 Avalon Limited -- gonna drive the wheels off that baby. Talk about a sweet ride.

            3. seguin   14 years ago

              Pretty much all cars are good now. Even VW, Land Rover, Suzuki, and Mini, which are all at the bottom of the heap in terms of reliability, will last a good long while with proper maintainance.

        2. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

          Though I remember it wanted to reserve the option of getting public money, so they're not off the hook.

          1. Almanian   14 years ago

            It's over - already paying back the *private8 loans ahead of schedule, and are in a positive cash position. No gummint loan/bailout will be needed nor happen.

            1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

              Good. They're redeeming themselves.

        3. free2booze   14 years ago

          Ford's "MyFord Touch" and "Sync" systems seem pretty cool.

      6. bobchild   14 years ago

        Right. She just set up a world were everyone had to buy foreign cars as a horrible example of how evil her opponents are.

        Completely different. Somehow.

      7. seguin   14 years ago

        Considering Ford didn't take the bailout, she'd be wrong on that point too.

        In fact, pretty much every auto-related piece of legislation floated by Team Blue seems coldly calculated to destroy any American startups from bolstering the US auto industry, instead sacrificing new life to shore up old, rotten trees. (Although, frankly, without the Michigan and Federal governments running interference for the unions against management, GM and Chrysler probably wouldn't have needed a bailout. Sure, they might be smaller, but they'd probably be healthier.)

      8. cynical   14 years ago

        Domestic in terms of ownership, apparently, since there would still be plenty of cars made by American workers.

        Well, we all know she actually meant "unionized auto industry", and who can blame her for wanting to give from the public largesse to those who want to give to her and her party? It's like a kickback, but legal. Sweet!

    2. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

      She's confusing it with the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. People commonly, if oddly, confuse "Illudium" with "infinity."

      1. Pablo   14 years ago

        Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom!

        1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

          That's only with GM cars.

          1. Almanian   14 years ago

            And Pintos.

            Are there any Pintos left, or did they all blow up already?

            1. seguin   14 years ago

              Plenty of em. The gas tank 'splosion thing was really overblown. A scare tactic for trial lawyers and politicians to profit by.

              1. prolefeed   14 years ago

                I owned a Pinto. The scary thing was the awful handling and braking, not the goddamn gas tank.

                Didn't meet my future wife until I ditch that car and got a nicer car. Talk about a "not gonna get any pussy" car.

    3. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

      Spelled Infiniti. Owned by Nissan.

      1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

        It's funny, because I thought that was common knowledge. I remember well the first big ad campaign they ran with Jonathan Pryce.

        1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

          Apparently not to members of the Democratic National Committee.

        2. Fatty Bolger   14 years ago

          Yeah. I remember those. The analog clock in the dash. Somehow the clock in the center of the dash was a Big Fucking Deal. Never quite got that. Hi, Mr. Infiniti dealer. I know about the clock. I don't know why the fuck it's such a big deal, but I know about it. Do I get a discount now?

        3. Concerned Citizen   14 years ago

          Jonathan Pryce as James Lingk in Glengarry Glen Ross. nuff said.

  2. John   14 years ago

    In Wasserman's defense, it is not exactly like Infinity is a Japanese sounding name. How was she supposed to know it wasn't an American car? What is more American than Infinity? And besides she said people should by American sounding cars. So it is all good.

  3. Fluffy   14 years ago

    You know what I hate about this narrative?

    That the people pushing it are either so stupid or so dishonest that they really believe that had the auto companies entered bankruptcy without administration intervention, that the trustees and creditors would have burned down all the plants, spiked all the machinery and obliterated the brands and nameplates.

    That is a pretty extreme level of stupidity OR dishonesty, but I guess some people can attain either or both.

    1. John   14 years ago

      They are also putting forth the myth that there is no American auto industry outside of the big 3 because if the plant is owned by feriners, it doesn't count I guess.

      1. Brandon   14 years ago

        But they also hate the evil capitalists who own the domestic plants.

        1. proegg antichicken   14 years ago

          I'm confused now. Who do I hate again?

        2. Hazel Meade   14 years ago

          Exactly. Watch 'Roger and Me'.

          GM is evil because it closes factories.

          But GM must get a bailout because we're all doomed unless they have a captive market.

      2. free2booze   14 years ago

        They also ignore all of the jobs that foreign auto companies have "outsourced" to the United States.

        1. Fatty Bolger   14 years ago

          We're tekken yer jobs!!!

      3. CoyoteBlue   14 years ago

        You know that libertarians are allowed to eat laid off unionistas don't you? They don't taste very good but, hey, they're nearly free with shipping.

        1. John   14 years ago

          I find unionists go very well with a Malbac.

    2. Amakudari   14 years ago

      Or that the slowdown and volatility from a GM bankruptcy would completely obliterate the US auto industry. That's the follow-up you hear once people are questioned on the first assertion.

      Just for reference, here in Japan many auto companies had facilities near Fukushima (especially R&D). They've idled many production lines, seen their JIT inventory systems blow up, and took nearly a month to just start work again (for various reasons: structural damage, no supplies, workers gone home). This summer several will be on staggered schedules because of the inevitable blackouts. It is in all ways worse than what a GM bankruptcy -- which is a change of ownership and a recapitalization, which is exactly what happened minus following the actual rules -- would have done to the supply chain.

      1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

        So, it's the recovery summer of the broken window/Japan.

  4. The Derider   14 years ago

    Every article reason re-posts from "The Blaze" strips it of some of its credibility.

  5. sarcasmic   14 years ago

    "Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman"

    Those are not the same people.
    The economist is no more.
    He has been replaced with a Democrat shill.

    1. The Derider   14 years ago

      If I call Milton Friedman a "Republican shill" does that disappear his Nobel too?

      1. sarcasmic   14 years ago

        If I cared to, and I do not, I could easily come up with quotes from Krugnut's columns that are in total contradiction with his work as an economist.

        I don't think that would be possible for Friedman, though you are welcome to try.

      2. free2booze   14 years ago

        Nope. Krugman has become just another political commentator.

        Friedman's writings, and policy proposals were limited to areas in which he had conducted research.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          And your knowledge of the extent of Krugman's economic research is informed by...

          1. SugarFree   14 years ago

            Stop shilling for the shill. This is getting too meta.

            1. The Derider   14 years ago

              The conversation is beginning to approach reality. ABORT! ABORT!

              1. SugarFree   14 years ago

                Yes. Reality. Lecture us more on this "reality."

                1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

                  Yes, when they refer to themselves as the "Reality-Based Community", they apparently mean some sort of observer-dependent reality that changes and fluctuates in a close correlation with American politics.

                  As Adam Savage says, "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

                  1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

                    The leftist "reason-based community" **** always made me laugh/cry. We have faith in the reason of glorious comrade Marx. The Little Red book guarantees it!

          2. Fluffy   14 years ago

            Krugman won his Nobel for work demonstrating that nations that attempt to engage in what is colloquially called "Industrial Policy" experience poor results.

            That is practically Friedmanesque work.

            Winning a Nobel for bashing statist intervention in the economy doesn't increase your credibility for writing daily newspaper pieces demanding MORE statist intervention in the economy.

            It's as if someone won the Nobel for inventing an artificial heart and then turned around and opened an all-you-can-eat lard store.

            1. Fluffy   14 years ago

              "Eat More Lard! It's endorsed by a Nobel-Winning Scientist and MD!"

              1. sage   14 years ago

                I knew a girl who worked at a Mcdonald's where some dude was boinking the blocks of vegetable shortening. Everyone was wondering where all those holes were coming from.

                1. Mark   14 years ago

                  Duly added to my list of 'things I did not need to know.'

              2. zoltan   14 years ago

                Lard is good for you, fool.

            2. DK   14 years ago

              Anyone think Krugman was body snatched?

              1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

                I think he was the guy working at McDonald's.

            3. PS   14 years ago

              Except for the fact that eating lard has nothing to do with CVD.

              1. Fluffy   14 years ago

                I'm a tailor, not a doctor.

                The important thing is that you understood the analogy. That means it conveyed its semantic content correctly.

            4. prolefeed   14 years ago

              It's as if someone won the Nobel for inventing an artificial heart and then turned around and opened an all-you-can-eat lard store.

              Well, no, if you invented an artificial heart you might get royalties or whatnot for every lard-based person needing an artificial heart.

              Krugman is more like someone who got a Nobel for a paper on how bad lard is for your heart and then opened that all-you-can-eat restaurant chain where every item on the menu is deep-fried in lard.

          3. Hazel Meade   14 years ago

            Dangerous comment there. You don't realize how many people here actually know something about economics.

            I suppose you're accustomed to different surroundings.

  6. free2booze   14 years ago

    "They would have let the auto industry in America go down the tubes."

    Really? So, if we hadn't bailed out GM and Chrysler, then auto manufacturers such as Ford, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, BMW, Hyundai, and numerous other auto manufacturers, would stop producing cars in the United States?

    1. Fluffy   14 years ago

      I think it goes beyond that.

      The GM brands were extremely valuable. Their installed plant was very valuable.

      If GM had entered bankruptcy without administration intervention, it is virtually certain that a new company using those brands and those plants would have emerged on the other side.

      The unions and bondholders would simply have taken much bigger haircuts. Particularly the unions, since the entire point of the bailout was to interfere in the standard bankruptcy process in order to protect union interests.

      1. Mainer   14 years ago

        Absolutely certain. For the car buffs, remember how many people over how many decades tried to keep the Studebaker Avanti name alive (into the 1980's I believe). The idea that brands like Corvette, Cadillac, Chevrolet would have simply disappeared is ludicrous.

      2. John   14 years ago

        My best friend in high school's uncle is a senior VP at Crysler. A few years ago when GM discontinued the Oldesmobile brand, his uncle and some other execs put together a package to buy the name from GM and continue the brand as their own company. GM said no even though the offer for the brand was in the hundreds of millions of dollars. They said no under pressure from the UAW because the UAW didnt' want a non union car company to start up in the US.

        Y

        1. Almanian   14 years ago

          Yep - the UAW's ass still hurts from Toyota/Honda, which they've NEVER been able to organize. Much less Hyundai/Merc/BMW/etc. They're right foked lately, the UAW....

          1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

            Foreign cars are looking better every day...

        2. seguin   14 years ago

          Dammit, that sucks!!! I'm a huge Oldsmobile fan...had a 1966 four door Cutlass that was my favorite car to date. The Toronado, the Rocket V8, the turbocharged F85...they were one of the neatest divisions GM had (they were the "experimental" division, they got to try out all sorts of different stuff.)

      3. bilbo   14 years ago

        the only real value GM has IMO is onstar. Those dipshits could license or sell off Onstar and probably come out much better.

      4. Cyto   14 years ago

        Unions instead of bond holders. That's what they were afraid of. So they stole 30 billion from secured bond holders and gave it to the unions.

    2. BigT   14 years ago

      "They would have let the auto industry in America go down the tubes."

      "They would have let the UAW go down the tubes."
      FIFY

  7. John   14 years ago

    "Wasserman Schultz is bright"

    David I think you might want to rethink some of your assumptions here.

  8. Fluffy   14 years ago

    One annoying thing about the internet:

    Given Wasserman-Schultz' political and institutional history, it is a pretty good bet that she has previously endorsed SOME union Buy American campaign somewhere along the line.

    So if The Derider believes that we shouldn't accuse Wasserman-Schultz of protectionist sympathies based on this one statement, I'm sure that there's more evidence supporting that accusation out there somewhere.

    The problem is that the existence of THIS article makes it a pain in the ass to find it, because of the eleventy billion commentary pieces on this statement that are rendered up in the search results first when you search for "Debbie Wasserman-Schultz Buy American".

    Fucking search engines, how do they work?

    1. Warty   14 years ago

      That's cuz you just got DeridONWND.

    2. Meiczyslaw   14 years ago

      March, 2006: "Democratic Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida proposes to ban any foreign ownership of property at U.S. ports [...]"

      Her name was also attached to a 2009 bill supporting "a review and renegotiation of all existing trade deals" with an aim towards protectionism.

      So, it might not be Truth, but it is truthy.

  9. Almanian   14 years ago

    Ms. Wasserman Shulz forgot to say, "They tuk rrr jeeeerrrrrrbbbssszz!!one!!"

    So I'll say it for her: "They tuk rrr jeeeerrrrrrbbbssszz!!one!!"

    You're welcome, Ms. W-S.

    1. Almanian   14 years ago

      Also, I did not mean to misspell your name, Ms. Wasserman Shultz. Sorry about that...

  10. Matrix   14 years ago

    I bought a new Toyota Camry less than a month ago. I got hell for it from my uncle who said "It's a Jap car... come on!"

    I commented that I did not want to buy POS American cars from manufacturers that were bailed out by USG... and hell, most of those cars are made outside of the US anyway.

    My Camry was assembled in Kentucky, and 70% of the materials used were from the US. Am I not supporting American workers by my purchase? Hell, there's even a Toyota engine plant here in Huntsville.

    He made the comment about Ford (did not get bailout money) and how they are the best selling trucks... okay, most of their sales come from fleet purchases, especially government fleet, which are required to 'Buy American.' Plus, how many different models are in the F-series? Pfft. Besides, it's a FORD. I will never buy a Ford POS. If Ford was the last auto manufacturer on the planet, I would either walk or ride a bike.

    1. Almanian   14 years ago

      Ford "Point of Sale"? Huh?

      1. Reference Librarian   14 years ago

        "Piece of Shit".

        1. Almanian   14 years ago

          *adjusting your sarc detectors*

    2. free2booze   14 years ago

      Am I not supporting American workers by my purchase?

      Exactly. Japanese auto manufacturers produce more vehicles in the United States, than produced by the Big 3.

      1. Matrix   14 years ago

        His reasoning is that "the money goes back to Japan." I really don't care. It will probably get back here anyway. I don't see him feeling guilty about his Japanese TVs, his Sony Playstation, Nintendo Wii, or any other product not made in America. What's so special about cars?

        1. free2booze   14 years ago

          Maybe, much of that money stays in the US too. The Big 3 make a lot of money from cars that the manufacture and produce in foreign countries.

          The "Buy American" argument may have had some merit, back in the days when foreign cars were imported to the US, because this might have had an effect on American jobs. That argument goes out the window when foreign owned companies are produced domestically.

    3. Fluffy   14 years ago

      FORD stands for "Fire On a Rainy Day".

      Ford sucks.

      1. Matrix   14 years ago

        Found On Road Dead

        1. Almanian   14 years ago

          Fix Or Repair Daily

          1. Matrix   14 years ago

            F***ed Over Rebuilt Dodge

            will also accept
            F***ing Old Rebuilt Dodge

        2. from my youth   14 years ago

          Fix Or Repair Daily

          1. Almanian   14 years ago

            You can say THAT again

          2. Almanian   14 years ago

            You can say that again.

      2. John   14 years ago

        IT is Fix or Repair Daily. And Fords are great cars. They always near the top in reliability.

        1. Fluffy   14 years ago

          I had a Ford [OK, a Mercury, but it's the same thing] catch on fire on a rainy day, so I'm sticking with that one.

          The only brand of car lower in my eyes is Volvo. Fucking pieces of garbage. [Walks away grumbling about Volvo transmissions, electrical systems, heating and cooling systems, etc.]

          1. Wind Rider   14 years ago

            You're gonna bitsh about a Volvo Air Conditioner? Fer chrissakes, cut the Swedes some slack - the damned things are practically built at the Arctic Circle! Oh. like THEY need air conditioners. . .

            1. Doktor Kapitalism   14 years ago

              He said "*heating* and cooling systems."

            2. Fluffy   14 years ago

              I have two main bitches about the Volvo heating and cooling system:

              1. It sucks.

              2. If any tiny part of it fails, the engine overheats. And if a Volvo engine overheats, it's not like a regular car engine where you just go get the hoses or the radiator fixed and put more coolant in it. Oh no. If the engine overheats for EVEN A MOMENT, the gaskets all burn out and the cylinders warp and you need a whole new engine.

              Volvos suck.

          2. Harvard   14 years ago

            Vulva, the preferred ride of the pantload liberal.

          3. Lord Humungus   14 years ago

            I once had two Volvo 850s at the same time ... the horror, the horror.

        2. WTF   14 years ago

          I have no complaint with Fords. I have a 2001 Explorer with nearly 150,000 miles on it that has only ever had just routine maintainence and it still runs pefectly fine.

          1. Matrix   14 years ago

            it's an anomaly.

            1. EDG reppin' LBC   14 years ago

              1995 Ford Exploder. 133k + miles. Oil change and new tires. Keeps going and going.

            2. Lord Humungus   14 years ago

              I once owned a '97 Mountaineer - drove it from 64k to 114k miles with only one repair - a transmission seal needed to be replaced for - if I remember correctly, it was a cheap repair.

              My current Mercury Grand Marquis has been a little worse with a broken ball-joint and a the heater speed-control needing replacement.

          2. Wind Rider   14 years ago

            I'll see your Explorer and raise you an 83 DATSUN 280ZX with just shy of rollin over 250,000 miles on the original drivetrain. Alternators don't count.

            1. Wind Rider   14 years ago

              Oh, and 28MPG while I'm watching most Fords fade into tiny rear view mirror artifacts. . .

              1. Almanian   14 years ago

                That '93 Mustang 5.0 passing you with a gazillion miles on it (never had the tappet covers off) @24mpg but way faster than your Z car was me....:)

        3. Matrix   14 years ago

          Pfft. You're never going to convince me that they are good vehicles.

          1. Hooha   14 years ago

            Huh. Reminds me of your close-minded uncle bitching about Japanese cars without a real reason.

            I love it when people vomit those Ford-bashing colloqualisms; it loudly broadcasts that they are an individual who does not do much legitimate product research, and is extremely perceptible to 'branding', to use a marketing term.

        4. prolefeed   14 years ago

          And Fords are great cars. They always near the top in reliability.

          Maybe they've gotten less sucky recently. I've owned a Pinto, a Thunderbird, and a Grand Marquis. All trouble-prone. Never again will I buy a UAW-built car.

          1. seguin   14 years ago

            It's been pretty recent, yeah. Mid-90's and up, mostly.

            No one can be blamed for having a hangover from anything Detroit late 70's to mid 80's.

      3. Warty   14 years ago

        "You know what Ford stands for, don't you? Fix It Again, Tony."

        1. Almanian   14 years ago

          Despite trying, I lol'ed at this. Crap.

        2. John   14 years ago

          That is FIAT Warty.

          1. Warty   14 years ago

            That's from a King of the Hill episode years ago. PWND

            1. Fatty Bolger   14 years ago

              lol

    4. seguin   14 years ago

      Really? Because Ford's reliability is damn near right next to Toyota's nowadays. Them and Buick.

      And Toyota is slipping. Plus your Camry is ugly and boring.

      Also, I'm awesome and you're short.

      And my dad can beat up your dad.

    5. k2000k   14 years ago

      In defense of ford they have done very well these past few years in the reliability rating and I believe their focus was considered the best of their class. Ultimately, assuming that a japanse brand car is good and an american brand car is a POS is just plain dumb. I think Toyota has shown us that they put out a lot of lemons this last decade, they just did a good job hiding the fact that they had done so. Also, almost every car bought in the US was made in the US. Fords or GM bought in Europe were not made in America. The 'foreign' car you might be driving was.

      1. MJ   14 years ago

        When car shopping earlier this year, the Honda I bought was put together in Ohio, and the Ford I consdered was put together in Mexico. These days, to say that almost any car is from a particular country is splitting some very fine hairs.

      2. prolefeed   14 years ago

        I think Toyota has shown us that they put out a lot of lemons this last decade, they just did a good job hiding the fact that they had done so.

        No, some Democratic politicians have lately done a good job of bashing Toyotas. Own three Toyotas, all built in the last decade or so, including one with 120K miles, and all those buggers are reliable and solid.

        1. seguin   14 years ago

          Not talking about the acceleration thing. The non-rustproofed frames, the engine sludge issue, the piss-poor interiors, etc.

      3. Hazel Meade   14 years ago

        Interesting how the quality of Japanese cars went down when they started producing them in the US, isn't it?

  11. Old Soldier   14 years ago

    In Wasserman's defense, to act as the DNC chair and repeat their talking points without noting the irony and flaws in logic takes a special kind of stupidity.

    Wasserman has that kind of stupid.

    1. Wind Rider   14 years ago

      Along with a really fat ass and thunder thighs that make Hillary and the Terminator look like bulimic fashion models. The one small consolation we can enjoy is that most of her interviews are waist up only affairs.

      1. Devil's Advocate   14 years ago

        We could solve our entitlement problem just by putting Debbie W-S on all TV channels at regular intervals. The grating sound of her voice would cause millions of people to kill themselves, thereby saving us from paying a ton of money for their Medicare and SS.

  12. Almanian   14 years ago

    "The Derider". Just for the lulz.

    lulz!

    'The Derider"! That's cute!

    1. Warty   14 years ago

      Watch out. You're about to get PWND.

      1. SugarFree   14 years ago

        Pwnage is right around the corner!

        1. Warty   14 years ago

          Actually, pwnage is more of a metaphorical concept, and therefore it's nonsensical to talk about it hiding behind corporeal objects like corners. PWND

          1. SugarFree   14 years ago

            That some like something Glenn Beck would spew. PWND!

            1. Platypus   14 years ago

              nah, he'd make it seem like a question. PWN4G3 is just around the corner, or is it?!

              1. Sy   14 years ago

                And then he would have a live studio audience comprised of nubs who've experienced the PWN4G3 first hand in the private sector, and would draw diagrams on the chalkboard linking PWN4G3 to Soros, back to Obama, and then back to the NEA.

      2. Almanian   14 years ago

        Thanks, Warty - I'm steeling myself against the onslaught from the anonopussy....

        1. SugarFree   14 years ago

          I will be butt-pwnage. He is very interested in butts, it seems. Probably because mommy gave him an enema very time he was naughty. And he had to hold it and it hold it and not let out a drop until she told him to.

          1. Warty   14 years ago

            What do you think, is this Dan T? The smugness and impotence is about the same.

            1. Almanian   14 years ago

              I'm thinking it's definitely a regular with a new name. Probably to escape mom checking the 'puter.

              "The Dereider! She doesn't know THAT nom de guerre! Off to battle those saucy Reasonoids!" Fag.

              1. The Derider   14 years ago

                I get it. Good "Reason" insults are homophobic or misogynistic. Duly noted.

                1. Almanian   14 years ago

                  Ow ow ow ow ow. Oh, Derider, please stop. You're killing me. No, no, please no more. You pwnage with the best of them. Hurr durr hurr.

            2. SugarFree   14 years ago

              Definitely Dan. T. The same complete abandonment of even trying to come up with an argument that's been going on since the initiation of the Scotch Hamilton sockpuppet.

              1. Warty   14 years ago

                Also, the initials are reversed. CLEVERWND

              2. Wind Rider   14 years ago

                I'll stick with my guess it's Tony.

                1. Warty   14 years ago

                  No way. Tony's way smarter than this.

                  1. WTF   14 years ago

                    Tony's way smarter than this.

                    No he isn't.

                    1. Warty   14 years ago

                      Tony is a lot of things, but dumber than Dan T isn't one of them.

                  2. Wind Rider   14 years ago

                    Noted for the record. At 1:01PM on the 1st of July, 2011, Warty paid Tony a compliment. This has to be one of the signs the apocalypse is near.

                    1. sloopyinca   14 years ago

                      You got that, Warty? You gotta come back on here in 30 days and compliment Tony.

                      [turns off pedantic asshole ray]

                    2. Warty   14 years ago

                      pedantic asshole ray

                      aka PWNAGE.

        2. The Derider   14 years ago

          Circle the wagons! He hasn't tasted the Rand-ade.

          1. Almanian   14 years ago

            Ouch. Oh no, please stop. You're killing me to death.

            I DONE BEEN PWNED!!!!!!!11on1!!111we!!!1one!elenvty!!!

          2. Almanian   14 years ago

            HAHAHAHAHA! NOT REALLY PWNED!!

            THEREFORE, THE DEREIDER HAS BEEN.....

            PPPPPPWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNED!!!!! PWNAGE!

  13. TrickyVic   14 years ago

    For those who think everything we buy should be made in America, I have a solution. Everything made in America gets a US Flag stamped on it. Then law enforcement can come into people's houses looking for items without the stamp. Anyone with items not stamped would be arrested. Would that work? 😉

    1. Almanian   14 years ago

      This is a BRILLIANT idea, Vic. What could possibly go wrong?

      1. Wind Rider   14 years ago

        They'd still oppress German Shepard owners, justifying shooting their dogs because they weren't really 'American'. My Boston Terrier would be safe, however.

        1. Almanian   14 years ago

          Oo - I hadn't thought of this. My Labs, technically Canucks, even though they were born in the US?

          I'm thinking the dachshund mix is a goner....:(

          1. Mainer   14 years ago

            Would the average cop know where Pomerania is ?

            1. T   14 years ago

              Sounds pretty foreign. Better pop a cap in it just to be sure.

              1. seguin   14 years ago

                Better nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

                1. Fatty Bolger   14 years ago

                  The ultimate PWNED

      2. TrickyVic   14 years ago

        ""This is a BRILLIANT idea, Vic. What could possibly go wrong?""

        These days, probably not much due to what isn't wrong anymore.

    2. free2booze   14 years ago

      In this new "War on Imports", wouldn't the feds also need to go after the people who sell foreign contraband? This would require a new federal agency, the Department of Unauthorized Merchandise (DUM). DUM would have to work with other countries, and provide them aid, so they could go after the distributors at the source. This would lead to a black market for foreign imports, resulting in the rise of gang violence. Also, our jails would fill up with non-violent offenders, who happened to be in possession of illegal imports. In the end, the only way to stop the scourge of illegal foreign products, would be to give law enforcement the means to access suspected violators bank records, and monitor their electronic communications.

      1. Almanian   14 years ago

        Good idea. "We" need another war. War on Imports - I like it!

        Well done, citizen!

  14. Wind Rider   14 years ago

    Gotta agree with Fluffy and free2booze on this one - the politicians didn't 'save' the auto industry in North America so much as they seized an opportunity for quid pro quo to their reliable union toadies in the form of a rather sizeable taxpayer funded government jobs program.

    Often wonder why I'm even astonished that politicians will insist that a dumb idea is the solution for really fucked up ones, usually theirs.

    The auto thing is one example. The 'stimulus' was another. All otehr gripes aside, I consider two of the most fucked up things Bush did was a) go along with the galactically stupid ethanol idea, and 2) nopt throw a panicked Hank Paulson out of his office after telling him to calm the fuck down, and then let the geeks on Wall Street that enjoyed the high life cause the trusted Barney and Chris Dodd pay the piper when the whole thing imploded.

    I'd be interested to laugh at anyone willing to step up and insist that ANY governmental special intervention in, well just about anything screeched about as a 'problem' has resulted in a good outcome, or at the least re-hash the imaginary apocalyptic results we would have seen if they hadn't. You know, doomsday scenarios such as cheaper, better built cars, because the old line US automakers that are still being bled dry by their pampered and entitlement seeking work force was told in no uncertain terms where to step the fuck off.

  15. kinnath   14 years ago

    I pray for the day the UAW goes tits up.

    1. SugarFree   14 years ago

      Taxpayers are going to get it in the neck if they do, either directly by a straight-up bail-out to keep them going or by the fedgov absorbing their medical and pension promises.

      Not that I want to see them not go under, but I'd rather it be during a historical epoch where they would pay for their cronyism and greed, not me.

      1. kinnath   14 years ago

        No, my prayers include a clause that says the American public turns against the UAW, and the UAW leadership is carted off to prison.

        1. SugarFree   14 years ago

          Noted. 🙂

  16. Old Guy Feeding Squirrels   14 years ago

    Those goddamned fools should have bailed out Hudson. Those were goddamned good cars.

    1. Studebaker   14 years ago

      What about me ?

      1. Enjoy Every Sandwich   14 years ago

        LOL my parents' first car was a 1948 Studebaker. They hated it. It was stolen once but the thief returned it, to everyone's disappointment.

        1. sloopyinca   14 years ago

          Too bad the Big Three killed the Tucker. The tech in that car was only about 20 years ahead of it's time.

          1. o rly   14 years ago

            tuckers are POS jokes that appeal only to non-car savvy people

    2. Packard   14 years ago

      You're forgetting someone.

      1. Pierce-Arrow   14 years ago

        Screw you buddy, I got dibs.

        1. Mercer   14 years ago

          Punks...

          1. Stanley   14 years ago

            Steam is the FUTURE! Wait!!! WAAAAAAAIIIIIIIT!!!!

            1. Kaiser-Frazer   14 years ago

              Hmph. No love?

              1. Franklin   14 years ago

                Ahem....*tap tap tap*

              2. Stutz   14 years ago

                Nope. None.

            2. Nash-Kelvinator   14 years ago

              No! Refrigeration is the future!

              1. Rambler   14 years ago

                What am I chopped liver? wait, don't answer that.

  17. Jim   14 years ago

    Why SHOULD there be a domestic auto industry? We've survived, and very nicely at that, not making TV's, radios, most clothing, etc. in the U.S. Why, with the exception of union protectionism, and by default, Democrat relection, should we worry about not making cars in the U.S.?

    Also, to those using "dipshit", etc., you are only showing your own childish nature, not disproving anyone's argument.

    1. Old Guy Feeding Squirrels   14 years ago

      My father worked and slaved day in and day out in the factory so I wouldn't have to, and I think it's a goddamned shame that young people today don't have the opportunity to do the same.

      1. zoltan   14 years ago

        Old Guy Feeding On Squirrels would have been better.

    2. kinnath   14 years ago

      I remember when Zenith died. I didn't care then. I don't care now. The world will be a better place when Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or Subaru gets pick the bones clean on the GM carcas.

      1. Platypus   14 years ago

        This.

        Then, their bones will be picked clean by Kia and Hyundai. Circle of Life.

    3. Warty   14 years ago

      Also, to those using "dipshit", etc., you are only showing your own childish nature, not disproving anyone's argument.

      P.S. In case anyone replies to this, their responses will almost assuredly be ad homs, thereby conceding my points and showing the childish, anti-intellectual nature of libertarians. Dozens of comments here have shown that the phrase "fascist libertarian" isn't an oxymoron.

  18. Pariuri Online   14 years ago

    I agree to buy american but we have a problem with the price because for exampel a t shirt from china is cheap and the same t shirt produced in usa has a higher price.

  19. Anonymous Coward   14 years ago

    If it were up to the candidates for president on the Republican side, we would be driving foreign cars

    Fucking Chapter 11 bankruptcy hearings, how do they work?

  20. Enjoy Every Sandwich   14 years ago

    "If it were up to the candidates for president on the Republican side, we would be driving foreign cars," Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz explained while defending the protectionist auto/union bailout.

    And what is wrong with that? I bought a Toyota Tacoma last year. Get over it, honey.

    It's funny how things change. I'm old enough to remember when any liberal worth his/her salt drove a foreign car: a VW Beetle (the original one), a Honda Civic, etc. The only people I remember yelling "buy American" and bitching about "rice burners" were conservatives (who were of course condemned as racist).

  21. Barry Loberfeld   14 years ago

    Buy American? Sell American!

    People often say that tariffs are "taxes," but another way to look at it is that protectionism is price control. So, instead of controlling prices to make foreign products less affordable, why not control them to make domestic ones more affordable? In another words, instead of forcing our country's consumers to "buy America," i.e., pay higher prices, why not force its companies to sell American, i.e., charge lower ones? That's how you fight "cheap imports" ? with cheaper domestics, not expensive ones.

    And the objection would be what ? production costs? If we can blank out the factors that determine whether you or I can afford to purchase a product, why can't we instead blank out the factors that determine whether a business can afford to make it? And since those include labor, here's the best part: When American products are priced (by the coercive state, not the free market) lower than imports, all the jobs at GM ? from company head to company janitor ? will be protected. Honestly, what's not to love?

    The bottom line is this: If GM isn't going to give each of us a free car, there's no reason why we should give GM a free ride, i.e., a "level playing field" where their competition is priced out of our reach. Let's not have any nonsense that that car represents impoverishing "consumption," while that ride constitutes enriching "production." If American CEOs don't consider it their patriotic duty to charge lower prices, then it's damn well not our duty to pay higher ones.

    1. Just an Engineer   14 years ago

      CEO's understand the need to lower prices when their products aren't competitive it's the unionized labor that won't allow them to lower prices.

  22. Platypus   14 years ago

    I, for one, couldn't care LESS where an effin' car was made, or produced, or designed, or assembled. They're effin' appliances these days; chromeless, soulless 100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty'd refrigerators on wheels.

    Now, get off my lawn.
    *shakes a cane in the air*

    1. Almanian   14 years ago

      chromeless, soulless

      This is why my Ninja ZX14 and ZRX1200R are now so important! Fast Motorcycles: Soul to Go...

      1. T   14 years ago

        I am seriously consider a ZX14 to replace my gorgeous, fast, unreliable Britbike. I take it you're happy with the Ninja?

      2. Mark   14 years ago

        Triumph Tiger 1050 -- Caspian blue -- 25,000 trouble-free miles -- 50 mpg (when I don't romp it) -- glorious, soulful, triple-cylinder exhaust note -- made in jolly, old England.

        What's my choice of American-made bikes? Oh yeah, Harley and Victory. Um, no thanks...

        1. T   14 years ago

          Daytona 1200 SE. A long list of bizarre issues. Running good for now, but the next major issue gets it consigned to the dustbin of history.

          But I have to admit, when it's running well, it's a goddamned amazing machine. And still one of the best looking bikes I've ever laid eyes on.

      3. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

        Meh, I'll stick w/ my Hayabusa. But then again, I've always owned Zukis. My fav being an 88 gixxer 750.

    2. kinnath   14 years ago

      2006 350Z; plenty of spirit in that one.

      1. Almanian   14 years ago

        My son loves the new Z car (370 is it?). I have a '11 Mustang GT convertible. It'll get you excited. Fun car.

        1. kinnath   14 years ago

          Yes, the new version is the 370Z. The 370Z roadster is gorgeous, but coupe isn't as attractive as the 350Z.

          I'd consider getting a 370Z, except my five-year old 350Z with 50K miles is still running flawlessly. I'll probably wait for the next refresh (assuming a 390Z or something).

        2. kinnath   14 years ago

          The last American nameplate that I bought was a late 80's mustang. I know that a lot can change in 15 years, but Ford is still posion for me. And there is no way I am ever buying a GM or Chrysler piece of shit now.

          1. Almanian   14 years ago

            Ninja. NinjaNinjaNinja. Works EVERY time.

  23. sevo   14 years ago

    The Derider|6.1.11 @ 12:34PM|#
    "So there's no difference between a car that is made with 80% domestic parts and one that's made with 20% domestic parts to the US economy?"

    No, there isn't.

  24. Hazel Meade   14 years ago

    The derider needs a lesson in comparistive advantage.

    Money not spent on cars (or parts of cars) is money spent on something else. Overall welfare increases when you do things more efficiently. If it's not efficient to produce cars with all American made parts, then American consumers will either shop elsewhere or experience a net loss of welfare.

    Prosperity is not a function of how many job are "produced". It is a function of how well consumers needs are met by existing resources.

    1. bobchild   14 years ago

      "Jobs are a mean not the ends in themselves
      People work to live better, to put food on the shelves
      Real growth mean production of what people demand
      That's entrepreneurship, not your central plan"

    2. The Derider   14 years ago

      I'm not suggesting that using 100% American parts would be more efficient from a welfare perspective than using 80%.

      Prosperity is, in a very real sense, a function of how many jobs are produced. This is why Obama is "doing a bad job on the economy". If we look at GDP and the stock market, he's doing great. When you look at the labor market, he's not. Jobs are important.

      1. sevo   14 years ago

        The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:01PM|#
        "Prosperity is, in a very real sense, a function of how many jobs are produced."

        Bullshit.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          I eagerly await a full-throated defense of Obama's handling of the economy, then. The stock market is up and GDP is growing since he took office. Will reason be posting an article like this tomorrow: "Hey Republicans, stop complaining about the unemployment rate, it's meaningless!"

          I'm not holding my breath.

          1. sevo   14 years ago

            The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:10PM|#
            "I eagerly await a full-throated defense of Obama's handling of the economy, then..."
            I eagerly await you finding a brain cell.

            1. bobchild   14 years ago

              Is the idea that the President isn't directly responsible for everything that happens in the economy really that hard to grasp?

              Even if I were going to pretend that "GDP growth" and "more consumption" were the same thing, that doesn't mean I should be "giving Obama credit". Or blame for the low unemployment. The economies not some machine that the President pokes to produce different outcomes.

              I can judge him on specific things he's actually done to help/hurt general economic conditions - like, in the case of this thread, bailing out GM- without pretending all economic activity is derived from a central authority.

            2. The Derider   14 years ago

              GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama. If you don't use unemployment as a measure, what economic indicators tell you he's doing a bad job?

              1. bobchild   14 years ago

                Didn't say he was doing a "bad job".

                Personally think the overwhelming majority of his policies have been very expensive utter wastes of time that haven't hurt or helped economic recovery. I still oppose most of those policies since I think most of them are laying the seeds for future failure (either from debt or the more insidious "now American industries/banks have implicit guarantees of government support if they fail", a policy which has just done so much good in the financial sector.)You should judge each of his policies individually using whatever means you can - judging his Presidency as some aggregate whole by overall "economic indicators" is ludicrous.

                And, yeah, when you take the Presidency in the middle of a recession, GDP will usually rise under you. That doesn't mean you're the cause - business cycles mean some Presidents get to look good and some get to look bad and most of them don't do a fucking thing.

              2. zoltan   14 years ago

                Isn't government spending included in GDP?

              3. Sy   14 years ago

                "GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama."

                GDP is up because government expenditures are through the fucking roof, one of the main components of processing the bullshit economic index we call 'GDP'

                Oh, gee, look at that, still higher under bush than it was Obama, despite the massive corporate welfare and bailouts.

                1. The Derider   14 years ago

                  DJIA on Bush's inauguration 10588
                  DJIA on Obama's inauguration 8281
                  DJIA today 12290

                  FACTPWNAGE

                  1. Sy   14 years ago

                    You can't even read charts, can you?

                    1. The Derider   14 years ago

                      I'm right, you're wrong. Give up.

                    2. sevo   14 years ago

                      The Derider|6.1.11 @ 7:16PM|#
                      "I'm right, you're wrong. Give up."

                      You're a stupid shit, I'm not. Give up.

                  2. sevo   14 years ago

                    The Derider|6.1.11 @ 6:18PM|#
                    "DJIA on Bush's inauguration 10588
                    DJIA on Obama's inauguration 8281
                    DJIA today 12290"

                    Oh, oh look! Stupid shit hopes to make a living picking cherries!

              4. sevo   14 years ago

                The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:23PM|#
                "GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama"

                This from a shit bag claiming an econ degree.

          2. Fluffy   14 years ago

            The stock market actually isn't up that much, denominated in gold.

            If you let me devalue our currency 90%, I bet I can increase the nominal GDP and nominal Dow Jones too.

            1. The Derider   14 years ago

              If you look through my golden libertarian decoder ring, Obama really is a Muslim!

              1. Fluffy   14 years ago

                So what you're saying is that it's not appropriate to compensate for currency devaluation when talking about asset price movements?

                Wow, you really knocked 'em dead earning your econ degree, didn't you?

                1. Sy   14 years ago

                  No he's saying your right-wing Koch-onomics is nothing more than Sarah Palin witchcraft, duh..

                  1. The Derider   14 years ago

                    No, I'm saying that gold is an incredibly volatile commodity and using it to compare purchasing power is idiotic.

                    1. Sy   14 years ago

                      So, pray tell, how you determine the value of an asset over time with an even more volatile currency?

                    2. The Derider   14 years ago

                      You aggregate a lot of consumer goods and take the average. Use that index as a benchmark.

                      See "consumer price index", "purchasing power parity"

                  2. sevo   14 years ago

                    Sy|6.1.11 @ 5:24PM|#
                    "No he's saying your right-wing Koch-onomics is nothing more than Sarah Palin witchcraft, duh.."

                    As opposed to pointing out your lefty bullshit, is, well, bullshit?

                    1. The Derider   14 years ago

                      You're so mad you're missing obvious sarcasm.

              2. newshutz   14 years ago

                no, he is a keynsian

                1. The Derider   14 years ago

                  Me and most economists.

                  1. sevo   14 years ago

                    The Derider|6.1.11 @ 7:41PM|#
                    "Me and most economists."

                    Cite, shit bag?

                    1. Sy   14 years ago

                      "Cite, shit bag?"
                      He can't because his stupid ass CPI is in his mind a gold standard and water-tight case for a stable dollar.
                      He refuses to see a world in which failed economic theory is responsible for the devaluation of a nation's currrency.

                    2. Sy   14 years ago

                      "Cite, shit bag?"
                      He can't because his stupid ass CPI is in his mind a gold standard and water-tight case for a stable dollar.
                      He refuses to see a world in which failed economic theory is responsible for the devaluation of a nation's currrency.

      2. NYT Editorial Board   14 years ago

        You are so right!

      3. k2000k   14 years ago

        I don't care about the nominal rise of GDP, that can be done by digging a bunch of fucking ditches, I care about the real rise of GDP. Which only really rises when something of actual value has been produced and consumed.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          No, nominal GDP isn't corrected for inflation. Real GDP is. This has nothing to do with "actual value" as you are trying to define it.

          THANK YOU ECON DEGREE

      4. Hazel Meade   14 years ago

        Prosperity is, in a very real sense, a function of how many jobs are produced.

        Garbage. You can dig ditches all day long and you won't make anyone more prosperous. The jobs are only useful if they are jobs matching resource utilization to consumer demand.

        Jobs are great, but they have to be worthwhile jobs. Government make-work is a waste of time, capital, and resources, that makes society no better off. The jobs must come from the private sector, which is to say, they must come from actual human beings making millions of individual choices about what they want and need. Not from some bureaucrat allocating people to work on X to give them something to do.

    3. sevo   14 years ago

      Hazel Meade|6.1.11 @ 1:49PM|#
      "The derider needs a lesson in comparistive advantage..."
      S/he and every other statist ignoramus.
      David Freidman points out we make cars two ways: Assemble them in Detroit or grow them in Iowa.
      Load that corn on a ship, and somewhere it the Pacific, the corn turns into Hondas and they land in Long Beach.
      The economy is better off taking the ones less subsidized, which is getting hard to figure.

      1. The Derider   14 years ago

        Hidden Order, Ptolemaic Trade Theory, Pages 69-70. I read it getting my economics degree.

        1. sloopyinca   14 years ago

          ...my economics degree.

          Well now that we all know you've got an econ degree, we should all just admit you're right and we're stoopid. After all, people with econ degrees know a lot more about economic stimulus and making money than actual producers, right?

          Face it, you just got PPPPPPPWWWWWWNNNNNNEEEEEEEDDDDD!!!!!!!!!111!!1!21@!!!11!1ELEVEN!!!!! Now, go get your shinebox.

          1. The Derider   14 years ago

            Do what you want with the knowledge that I've got an econ degree.

            I think it's pretty funny that you make a distinction between "people with econ degrees" and "actual producers", as though flipping burgers at McDonalds gives you some proletarian econ knowledge that an academic somehow cannot grasp.

            1. sloopyinca   14 years ago

              First off, modern econ degrees are about as useful as psychology degrees. They prepare you for nothing but cocktail parties and college socials. And by that, I mean you will be the guy carrying around a tray asking people if they'd like another drink. It is a non-productive field full of pseudo-intellectuals who like to impress their knowledge upon each other and ultimately contribute nothing of substance.

              That said, I doubt you're fucking stupid enough to think that I equate producers to the guy working the grill at McD's. Either you knew what I meant by it: those who risk their own capital to produce goods and/or services to the open market and the people they hire to run those companies, or you don't, in which case you are too retarded to give any more credence to.

              Which is it? Are you disingenuous or are you fucking retarded?

              1. The Derider   14 years ago

                I'm going to pick disingenuous, since you've clearly monopolized "fucking retarded" in this thread.

                Milton Friedman was a "non-productive" "pseudo-intellectual" who contributed nothing of substance? What about his son, David, the economist and author?

                Why is an assistant manager who tells people to make burgers a "producer", but the actual burger producers are not?

                You're a moron.

                1. Fluffy   14 years ago

                  Why is an assistant manager who tells people to make burgers a "producer", but the actual burger producers are not?

                  Oo Oo! I know this one!

                  Actual human productivity hasn't moved that much since the invention of the printing press dramatically spiked literacy rates.

                  We're only marginally smarter and more physically capable than we were a couple of centuries ago. Average height and weight has risen in countries with "the western diet", average IQ has crept up, things like that - but the changes have been minor in the grand scheme of things.

                  But overall productivity is orders of magnitude higher than it was a couple of centuries ago.

                  How can that be?

                  Well, there are only two other inputs to consider: capital, and organization. If the increase in productivity can't be attributed to fundamental changes in human beings, it has to be attributable to accumulated capital and improved organization (including greater deployment of information).

                  So, yeah, participating in the command structure of an enterprise means that you are contributing to that greater productivity structure. Flipping burgers when directed to do so means that you are piggybacking on that greater productivity structure. Sorry, but those are the breaks.

                  1. The Derider   14 years ago

                    Dude you forgot the technology input. Construction workers aren't more efficient today than 5 centuries ago solely because of organizational improvements, they're more efficient because they have machine tools, interchangeable parts, and blueprints.

                    Sorry, Econ Fail.

                    1. Sy   14 years ago

                      Yeah, all those 'technological inputs' you call power tools and interchangeable parts are capital.

                    2. The Derider   14 years ago

                      Yes, in a sense that every physical object that a company owns is capital.

                      No, in the sense that the accumulation of capital is completely distinct from the rate of technological advancement.

                    3. sevo   14 years ago

                      The Derider|6.1.11 @ 7:29PM|#
                      "Yes, in a sense that every physical object that a company owns is capital.
                      No, in the sense that the accumulation of capital is completely distinct from the rate of technological advancement."

                      Shorter shit bag:
                      "I can make up some qualification that sorta makes me right, if you hold your mouth right".

                    4. The Derider   14 years ago

                      You have added precisely zero content to this thread. You may disagree with me, but I have the courtesy to make warranted arguments.

              2. Just an Engineer   14 years ago

                He's got an econ degree but thinks that it's due to Obama that the economy has turned around since hitting bottom so I'm gonna go with retarded as the answer.

                1. Sy   14 years ago

                  Shorter The Deridier:
                  "My President is responsible for market upticks and everyone else is responsible for panics and downswings!"

                  It never occurred to him that a publicly-traded companies' very existence on depends on whether they can maintain or increase the value of their stock, and the most successful ones will make damn sure they can adapt to a changing market.

          2. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

            "Now, go get your shinebox." My favorite movie of ALL time.

        2. sevo   14 years ago

          The Derider|6.1.11 @ 2:20PM|#
          "Hidden Order, Ptolemaic Trade Theory, Pages 69-70. I read it getting my economics degree."

          Shame it was wasted on such an ignoramus.

          1. The Derider   14 years ago

            I feel the same way in regards to you and the right to post comments.

            1. The Immaculate Trouser   14 years ago

              So given that you have an ECON degree, I take it that you agree with us that protectionism is pretty fucking stupid, and that its alternatives have little to no empirical evidence to validate their claims that protectionist policies will help the economy, right?

  25. SFC B   14 years ago

    As a motorcycle rider I'd be hard pressed to "Buy American".

    1. seguin   14 years ago

      Yeah, kinda sad that Buell's out of the picture now. Guess I'll go Indian and get me a Royal Enfield. Or Italian. Or British.

  26. Almanian   14 years ago

    So as a supervillain, what does "The Derider" look like in the comix? I'm thinking a Merlin hat, wearing pants held up with a rope, with Depends underneath. And with one of those 70's satin jackets...."The Derider's" has "Fridays" stitched on the left chest (remember when they competed against SNL back in the day? "The Derider" does!)

    Mmm - orange Converse All Stars (canvas, of course). Striped multi-colored funkenstein socks.

    Drives a brown 1973 Chevy Impala (4 door, bien sur) with a deteriorating tan vinyl top.

    Clearly a white guy. Old.

    It gets a little fuzzy after that. Anyone else have a clear vision?

    1. kinnath   14 years ago

      I actually liked Fridays better than SNL

      1. Almanian   14 years ago

        Michael Richards FTW

        1. kinnath   14 years ago

          I still remember him playing army out in the sandbox.

    2. The Derider   14 years ago

      Whatever turns you on.

      1. Fatty Bolger   14 years ago

        First attempt at a catch phrase?

      2. Warty   14 years ago

        PWND

        1. bernieyeball   14 years ago

          PRNDL

    3. The Derider   14 years ago

      Most of those cultural references had disappeared by the time I was born. I think I'd have MC hammer pants and a boom-box that keeps playing "Das Kapital" on tape. I'd keep the depends, because who wants to waste time going to the bathroom? I'd rather be smashing imperialism!

      1. Sku   14 years ago

        You mean the kind of imperialism where the governmnet uses its power to force people to buy the products of its empire?

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          I feel like you missed the irony.

  27. Pierce-Arrow   14 years ago

    Both y'all suck.

  28. bernieyeball   14 years ago

    -The Derider|6.1.11 @ 12:34PM|#
    So there's no difference between a car that is made with 80% domestic parts and one that's made with 20% domestic parts to the US economy?-

    Last time I looked at the new 2010 F-150's at Happy Harry's "Ford O Rama" here in Sleepytown a Parts Content Sticker stated that 55% of the parts were of North American origin. It did not state a % for The USA.
    How's that for factual accuracy!
    Should I assume that this American Made truck has less than 50% parts from The USA?

  29. bernieyeball   14 years ago

    -Jim|6.1.11 @ 1:16PM "Also, to those using "dipshit", etc., you are only showing your own childish nature, not disproving anyone's argument."

    If you want decorum watch a replay of last nights Heat-Maverick NBA game. You will never find it here!

    1. Bernieyeball   14 years ago

      ...or the Illinois State Legislature!!!

      http://thesouthern.com/news/lo.....002e0.html

  30. Esteban   14 years ago

    This lady is more entertaining than Howard Dean. It's good to see the Democrats hiring a mouthpiece that stupid. Will enjoy watching them lose the presidency and the Senate in 2012.

    1. The Derider   14 years ago

      Yes, once Republicans control the presidency and legislature, we can return to the prosperity of the Bush years.

      1. Fluffy   14 years ago

        Since Obama's policies and Bush's policies have been virtually identical, right down to the tax rates, if you didn't like Bush's economic policies you shouldn't like Obama's either.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          Was that intended for Esteban, or me?

          1. Fluffy   14 years ago

            It works for both, really.

            1. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

              Crickets...

  31. NotSure   14 years ago

    There is one plus for America to keep its car industry - the entertainment value of watching Top Gear rip some GM vehicle to shreds is worth paying a few trillions of taxpayer cash.

  32. R C Dean   14 years ago

    GDP has expanded under Obama. The stock market is up under Obama.

    Both of these are functions of borrowing and printing money (you realize that GDP includes government expenditures, yes? and that the stock market is up because QE has killed returns on debt, so capital has nowhere else to go, yes?).

    Back out the debt, and you'll see an economy that has flatlined.

    As evidenced by the flatlined housing market and the flatlined employment market, to name just two. Also, every measure of GDP shows an economy that is seriously underperforming compared to previous contractions/recoveries. Banks are still failing at an appalling rate. The auto industry is selling something like 30% fewer cars than it should be, historically.

    My question is, why would any sane person think this administration's economic policies have been anything other than a failure?

    1. George V   14 years ago

      Lloyd Benson might say, "if you let me write $1.4 trillion in hot checks, I'll give you an illusion of prosperity too."

    2. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

      If your goal is the total state, the economy is irrelevant.

    3. Gilbert Martin   14 years ago

      "you realize that GDP includes government expenditures, yes?"

      Indeed it does and that is why GDP is a lousy measure of prosperity.

      It is Keynesean circular logic: government spending "boosts" the economy ans we'll prove it by creating an economic measure that includes government spending.

      Government creates nothing. Government has nothing to spend (or give) except that which it has first taken away from somebody else.

      Government spending is merely a forced transfer payment. Any benefit to the trasferees is offset by the detriment to the transferors.

    4. Tony   14 years ago

      A failure to what end? Reversing the Bush depression? How do you propose going about that?

      1. k2000k   14 years ago

        Considering that we are still in a depression when you look at the unaltered statistics, or shall we say the shadow statistics, I suggest a good healthy does of free market capitalism. It worked from 1776 to the 1920s.

        1. Tony   14 years ago

          No, it didn't, but life was so bad for most people in that era, people probably didn't notice so much how awful and hamfisted the economy was. Modern economics wasn't a socialist conspiracy to oppress you, it was a necessity for a civilized country.

          1. Gilbert Martin   14 years ago

            Nonsnese.

            The economy has always gone through cycles of expansion and contraction.

            All the ones that it went through in the era before big gov started meddling ended on their own.

            The longest depression the country has ever had was the one when government STARTED meddling in it in a big way.

            There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the performance of the economy has been improved in any way by government meddling relative to how it performed in the era before government meddling.

        2. The Derider   14 years ago

          The Panic of 1819
          The Panic of 1837
          The Panic of 1857
          The Panic of 1869
          The Panic of 1873
          The Panic of 1893

          1. Scruffy Nerd Herder   14 years ago

            Panics being defined as bank runs. All panics which you cited were short-term in nature and over rather quickly. A feature that has long since disappeared and been replaced by recessions, depressions, adjustments, and other bullshit terms that reflect ever longer and longer down cycles.

            1. The Derider   14 years ago

              Panics not being defined as bank runs. Panics being defined as recessions and depressions.

              The panic of 1819 lasted 4 years.
              The panic of 1837 lead to a 5 year depression.

              I'm not going to summarize the rest of history for you. You are clearly wrong.

      2. sevo   14 years ago

        Tony|6.1.11 @ 5:35PM|#
        "Reversing the Bush depression?"

        Ah, that would be the Obama depression by now, shit bag.

        1. The Derider   14 years ago

          Ooh, no content, partisan loyalist, and constant ad-homs. You're a winner.

          1. The Immaculate Trouser   14 years ago

            Damn, you've really got yourself pegged.

            1. The Derider   14 years ago

              HaHaHaHaHaHachHachHachHackkakkakkkkkkk (takes asthma medication and eats a turkey leg to calm anxiety)

  33. Medick   14 years ago

    Harley

  34. Res Publica Americana   14 years ago

    I'd love nothing more than to buy American. No doubt about that. So as soon as liberty and free, just markets once again define America, I'll do just that.

  35. Citytrekker   14 years ago

    The mortgage, construction and building/architecture industries added to the prosperity of consumers and real GDP growth in the past decade and change.
    Historic numbers, and historic overbuilding. To say that Obama must magically turn the economy around in 2 years is impossible. We went through a 9 year building boom and 4 of that was overbuilding. The list of workers that benefited from that goes from plant nurserys to loan servicers. Most of the jobs lost in those industries are not comming back for 10 years.

    We are talking about small numbers of autoworkers. Most of the recession was caused by too big, too fast. The economy should have been slowed down in 2005. I'm sure most of you economic experts may not agree, but the truth from the "producers" is that things happened way too fast and too much.

    I find it interesting that smart people always talk about jobs and job growth, yet never mention historic production and development on all sizes and scales. Not just single family homes, but entire mini cities, like in Las Vegas. They rebuilt half of Las Vegas in 9 years, when it took 50 years to do it before.

  36. Larry   14 years ago

    Mr Harsanyi either ignores or is unaware of the fact that through all those years of growth that made America exceptional we had tariffs to protect our industry and our workers. Ross Perot was right. That sucking sound your hear is the sound of jobs leaving.

    1. Larry   14 years ago

      Just kidding. It's me on Obama's Weiner!

  37. nike basketball   14 years ago

    is good

  38. goallen   14 years ago

    ty rights, etc. seem like a more accurate measure of freedom than democracy.

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