Tim Cavanaugh Talks Marijuana Reform Saturday at Montalban Theater in Hollywood

Prop 19 has failed. In the last week medical marijuana dispensaries in L.A., Orange and Riverside Counties have been raided. And after the passage of the wittily titled Prop M, the City of Los Angeles will be in the rare position of trying to tax sales of a technically illegal substance by non-profit entities.

What's the future of marijuana reform in California, and what does California's experience mean for the rest of this great stoned country?

Reason Senior Editor will be speaking today at the conference "Next Steps for Marijuana Reform in California," at the Ricardo Montalban on legendary Vine Street in Hollywood.

The conference goes all day, and tickets are $20. Cavanaugh will be batting cleanup, on "Perspectives & Proposals" panel at 5:00 PM.

Details:

Marijuana Reform: Next Steps for California
March 19, 9 AM to 6 PM
Ricardo Montalban Theater Hollywood
1615 vine St.
Los Angeles, CA
90028

Get your buzz killed beforehand with Reason TV's coverage of what's happening to medical pot collectives:

Comments

[deified]

This event looks awesome--except for those of us on the east coast.

Can y'all make sure that someone is recording this biatch for later consumption?

Thank you.

[Paddy K]

Hey doesn't federal law trump state law? What's with the funeral music?

[Fist of Etiquette]

"From hell's heart, I stab at thee. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."

That line is one of the best known in literature. It is, of course, taken right out of the pages of the novelization of the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. It is relevant because, in the novel, Khan was obsessed with Kirk, just as Obama is obsessed with a drug-free America. The president will chase that whale of a dream until it drowns us all in his good and pure intentions.

[Episiarch]

"I give you...sixty seconds."

"Here it comes, Khan."

[Barack Obama]

This is America! The American economy exploded six months after we were
left here. The shock shifted the entire political landscape and everything was laid waste. President Bush never bothered to check on our progress. It was only the fact of my genetically engineered intellect that enabled us to survive!

[DNS Spock]

His pattern is indicative of linear thinking, Captain. He's intelligent, but inexperienced.

[EvilSpockPenguin]

...He thinks in two dimensions...or maybe just one.

[EgadsNo]

The problem is he listens to what the Office of National Drug Control Policy says (when they get paid 15.5 billion in 2011 to fight any attempt to legalize marijuana) or what the DEA says when their expenditure budget for 2011 is 2.8 billion dollars.

[EgadsNo]

Politicians need to start following medical studies- they ignore the vast majority of marijuana studies.

People like to say we dont do enough research, we do- actually the US federally spends more money on marijuana research then the rest of the world combined through agencies like NIH and NIDA.

We just ignore the results of the research when we dont like the results.

[EgadsNo]

by the way the studies we pay for an ignore are mostly done outside the country, since we really cant do much research here without jumping through alot of hoops.

[Fist of Etiquette]

If only the guy who appoints presidential policy advisors wouldn't pick people who shield Obama from differing points of view...

[deified]

If only the guy who appoints presidential policy advisors wouldn't pick people who shield Obama from differing points of view...

Obama knows the other points-of-view.

He is just pandering to the median voter who thinks something like "OMG, my idiot son/daughter is going to take DRUGS unless the War on Drugs goes on forever and ever..."

[Binky]

Obama knows the other points-of-view.

Oh, yes. Yes, he does.

[deified]

Much as wish it were otherwise, he's clearly smoking a conventional tobacco cigarette in that picture.

[EvilSpockPenguin]

Yes. Laced with the coke he admitted he took "as a youthful mistake." A youthful mistake he supports felony charges for when others make it.

[Episiarch]

Right. The well meaning (and articulate!) Obama would do the right thing if he just listened to the right people!

You can't be this stupid.

[DNS]

The well meaning (and articulate!) Obama would do the right thing if he just listened to the right people!

You forgot clean. Cleanliness is next to godliness, you know.

[BakedPenguin]

You have all that energy from being coked up, you're gonna spend a night on the town, might as well take a shower...

[Pro Libertate]

Very funny. Of course, it really comes from--for the kids in the audience--Moby-Dick. Which was a jamming Led Zeppelin instrumental.

[sloopyinca]

I really take exception with the cops who have helped the feds raid these dispensaries in direct defiance of California law.

Just goes to show, they'll use any excuse legal or illegal, moral or immoral so they can pull out their shiny para-military gear and terrify the general public.

What we need to do is criminalize the raids. False imprisonment for starters. Terrorism would be in order as well. Since it's federal law they're enforcing, you can only go after the local/state cops.

Let the Feds do their own dirty work.

[EgadsNo]

Police departments get money directly for taking drugs off the street in federal grants.

[Marion Barry]

Vote for me. I got drugs off the streets.

[Rhayader]

Yeah, it's clear the feds are desperate for state-level law enforcement involvement with this stuff, so they can maintain their "clear and unambiguous compliance with state law" charade. And of course, it's never all that difficult to convince a bunch of city cops and state troopers to crack some pothead skulls, no matter what the law says.

[P Brooks]

I really take exception with the cops who have helped the feds raid these dispensaries in direct defiance of California law.

The raids here in Montana were carried out with the eager participation of local police and county sheriffs.

And, of course, the PR machine has been cranked up to demonize the people raided as Satanists, criminal money launderers and who knows what. And people just gulp it right down.

"Urrr, dem Messikin druglordz is gonna be like all rapin and pillagin and what-not! Save us, Sheriff Hopeylong!

Saaaaaaaave uuuuuuuuuuuuussss!!"

[deified]

"Democracy is the worship of jackals by jackasses."

? H.L. Mencken

[nekoxgirl]

How soon until the Obama administration decides it's THEIR turn to bust Tommy Chong I wonder?

[The Right Stuff]

All this effort to tax, regulate and control a harmless plant that ought to be free. Meanwhile no effort to defund the narcs, stop CAMP (helicopter based pot plant search and destroy missions) or reschedule pot under federal law. Pot should be immediately put on schedule five so it could be effectively used in every corner of this nation, legally and cheaply produced and sold in drugstores by normal people for reasonable prices instead of in boutiques at $20 a gram. Then we could proceed to legalize it internationally as in rescind UN Resolution 232. But no, these guys are gonna stick us with the $20 dollar a gram plan forever more "'cause it generates so much tax revenue that way." Right. Sure. Maybe if you ingest enough speed that point of view seems logical but for the rest of us it is hard to stomach.
With Marijuana Activists like these, who needs the Prohibitionists?!?

[Trespassers W]

a harmless plant that ought to be free

Just like tomatoes!

[The Ghost of Harry Anslinger]

Deadly nightshade?! Not if I were Drug Czar!

[nekoxgirl]

Although I support decriminalization/legalization of all drugs, Marijuana Prohibition in particular seems the most crazy. Even the people that are less keen on the idea of marijuana legalization understand that reefer madness is bullshit and that THC is a fairly benign drug. Even though support for legalization has risen from less than 20% in 1990 to nearly 50% now, the federal government still wants to play the War on Drugs just as hard as before. This issue more than anything else pushed me towards the libertarian side of the political spectrum, since it's obvious that the two major parties are completely batshit insane when it comes to this issue.

[Captain Kirk]

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNABIS!

[Ska]

*grin*

[Episiarch]

THIS IS CETI ALPHA FIVE!!!

[Fist of Etiquette]

That's probably how Shatner pronounces it, too. The Canadian bastard.

[Pro Libertate]

Sabotage.

[S. Quirrel]

The server at reason.com is taking too long to respond.

[Bob O'Link]

If marijuana is so bad, why not force people to ingest it as punishment for their crimes? Less expensive than incarceration.

[Trailer Park Boys]

Sure, get high Bubbles. It's fun!

[Episiarch]

Off topic, but has anyone gone and seen Battle: Los Angeles yet? I fear it will be awful, but maybe it isn't.

[prolefeed]

I read one review that essentially said, "If you take a date to see this movie, expect to get no pussy."

They put it a bit more discreetly than that, but that was the gist.

[Episiarch]

Right, but is it any good? I knew it was no chick flick already.

[Hugh Akston]

Most reviews I have read say that it is packed with war-movie clich?s and cheapo special effects. It has a 37/100 on Metacritic.

[Episiarch]

So there's just nothing to go see right now. Shitty.

[Hugh Akston]

Is the Justin Bieber movie out of the theater yet?

[Episiarch]

You tell me, Chris Crocker.

[Hugh Akston]

I had to Google the name to place it with a face. There are some disturbing ass photos of that freak out there.

[Episiarch]

Leave Chris alone!!!

[Bingo]

Jeffree Star redux. God bless the internet celebrity.

[Fist of Etiquette]

So there's just nothing to go see right now.

Considering your earlier misquoting of Wrath of Khan, I think your evening would be better spent reacquainting yourself with that film.

[Episiarch]

What you talkin' about, Willis?

[Fist of Etiquette]

[The following should be read in the voice of Comic Book Guy]

Kirk said, "It's coming through now, Khan." And he said, "Here it comes." He never said, "Here it comes, Khan."

[Episiarch]

You need to know how things work on a starship, FoE.

[Ted S.]

There's nothing wrong with cheapo special effects if you've got a good story. See the 1960 George Sanders version of Village of the Damned for an example.

[Bingo]

Pros: It's got shooty stuff and explosions
Cons: The plot, tons of cliches, bad science, Michelle Rodriguez. Oh, and a significant portion of the shooty stuff is ruined because of constant little kid screaming.

[Episiarch]

So it sucks. Sounds like a Michael Bay movie yet lacking the one thing Bay has going for him: excellent taste in female leads.

That's what I figured, but after District 9 turned out to be a very pleasant surprise, I was hoping maybe this would be too.

[Bingo]

Yeah pretty much. The invasion sequence was well done with meteors hiding the landing craft and the aliens using high energy kinetic weapons. Then Michelle Rodriguez and a bunch of kids show up and it turns garbage. Even the special effects go from neat boom explosions to big firey cliche explosions.

Oh and the aliens lose because, although they were able to figure out interstellar travel, they apparently couldn't figure out how to do a decentralized command and control network.

Basically, buy a ticket to a different movie and watch the invasion sequence while you wait.

[Episiarch]

Unfortunately, there is no other movie in the theaters right now to do that with. The Big Picture is still playing The King's Speech.

[Bingo]

Adjustment Bureau has gotten some good reviews, and its based on a Philip K. Dick short!

[Episiarch]

Meh; not interested in The Thirteenth Floor meets What Dreams May Come.

Also: MATT DAMON

[sloopyinca]

Oh and the aliens lose because, although they were able to figure out interstellar travel, they apparently couldn't figure out how to do a decentralized command and control network.

So, it's essentially a metaphor for our federal government?

[Tim Cavanaugh]

they apparently couldn't figure out how to do a decentralized command and control network.

Don't tell me people are still using the old blow-up-the-enemy's-central-thingee trick. This is why I can only take zombie movies seriously. Zombies never have a central thingee you can blow up. As in life, you just have to kill them one by one.

[John]

The problem Tim is that we have lived through the whole "advanced civilization comes into contact with isolated, comparatively primiative one". It was called the discovery of America. And the primiatives got slaughtered. The same would happen if Aliens ever came in contact with earth.

Our only hope would be that the planet was somehow deadly to them like War of the Worlds. Otherwise we are screwed. So if you want a movie with a happy ending, you have to invent some bullshit excuse why the humans don't go the way of the Tasmanians.

[Voros McCracken]

"The problem Tim is that we have lived through the whole 'advanced civilization comes into contact with isolated, comparatively primitive one.'"

I dunno, the Visigoths and the Vandals sure put the screws to the Romans well enough.

[John]

The Romans didn't have truely advanced technology. They were both fighting with swords and catapults. IF the Romans had had rapid firing rifles, the Visagoths would have been slaughtered.

[The Bearded Hobbit]

The exception to the advanced civilization comes into contact with isolated, comparatively primitive one is cannibalistic societies. So the response to alien contact is to kill them and eat them.

... "If no eyes, avoid all contact" Hobbit

[JoshInHB]

It was called the discovery of America. And the primiatives got slaughtered.

Through disease more than war.

The conquest would have played out differently if plagues had not killed 90-95% of the natives.

[Bingo]

It's probably the most cliched movie I've seen in a while. If you think that's bad, just wait until the soon-to-be-retired-Master-Sgt. makes a speech to the young-soldier-who-had-a-brother-killed.

Somehow it's worse than the schtick of "we take down the enemy's XXXXX and we take down the entire enemy!" It does't pass the smell test of non-interstellar geopolitics and it certainly doesn't pass the interstellar variety of the same.

[Episiarch]

It's probably the most cliched movie I've seen in a while.

I think the real question to ask after this statement is, did it have the extreme casual racism of a Michael Bay flick? Because without that, you can't be truly horrible.

[Bohica]

Oh and the aliens lose because, although they were able to figure out interstellar travel, they apparently couldn't figure out how to do a decentralized command and control network.

Heh, but every alien invasion movie has similar issues.

[Johnny [Long]torso]

Explosions!!1 Michael Bay

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Apologies for periodic sentence:

Now that we have seen people involved in a tsunami, an earthquake and a heroic battle to prevent a nuclear meltdown produce more stable and watchable footage than a $70 million Hollywood production company, can the shakycam fad finally end?

[The PCPAA]

We here at the Parkinson's Camera Persons Assocication of America find this statement to be intentionally hurtful, intolerant, and racist.

[Rhayader]

California seems to be floundering a bit since Prop 19 tanked. It looks like Washington state might be pushing into the forefront, especially with the Seattle Times' awesome editorializing on the issue lately. Quite a stark contrast from the major Cali paper coverage Welch was documenting during the run-up to the Prop 19 vote.

[Episiarch]

Washington is less of a clusterfuck than California, in a good way, so yeah, there might be a chance. However, the failure of the liquor privatization makes me more wary.

[deified]

As you know, the eastern part of the state is filled with conservative apple farmers. Same as Oregon.

Maybe victory involves creating areas that are bigger than Nederland but smaller than an entire state?

[Rhayader]

Actually I didn't know that (I'm a jealous east-coaster). Makes sense though. But hey, even the die-hard social cons seem to be losing their appetite for employing a massive government social engineering project to get people to stop taking bong hits and destroying boxes of Captain Crunch.

[deified]

Both of us live on the East Coast. We should get together and smoke cannabis.

[Rhayader]

I'm down for that, if you're anywhere near central North Carolina.

[nekoxgirl]

I live in central NC! And I too like to toke up.

[Rhayader]

Damn I thought I was the only one. The email address linked to my name is real, hit me up some time if you feel like chillin.

[heller]

Near Boston?

[SIV]

Ricardo Montalban looks kinda like Chesty Morgan or Dyanne Thorne would in the "after" shot of a "Faces of Meth".

[HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN]

EPOCHAL SIROCCO

EPOCHAL SIROCCO-GHIBILI ? Toward an Islamic Democracy
As epochal era of inevitable and irreversible Sirocco - Ghibili Sandstorm of change sweeps across the Middle East ending the American-Israeli Military Industrial Complex [EMPIRE] of colonial subjugation thru its placement and support of autocratic, totalitarian top down Divine Right of rule, despotic rulers. Being lead by and urbanized and connected youth with a democratic fervor, willing to go their own way and face the bumpy and unstable path, at best in a transition from autocracy to democracy. Are calling for a new form Middle East [NOT] based upon, or taking instructions from a copy cat western Neo Liberal Secular Democratic System, of fewer and fewer disenfranchised citizens choosing not to participate in superficial elections which are controlled thru gerrymandered unchanging candidate's, western style so called democratic elections, with no change to the status quo within its governmental ruling elite structures. Forming an Islamic Democracy, form of government established and based upon historic values of respect for human rights, based upon Islamic beliefs and values with Islamic representation, a constitutional freely elected Islamic Caliphate monarchy, power sharing, with a Parliamentary system of opposition political parties, a co-operative amalgamation based upon rights of free association and expression, the right petition the regress of grievances, demanding reforms to allowing the voice of the people to be heard, a free press providing the public a universal knowledge of government activities keeping a check upon government to report and abate corruption, the establishment of regional system of localized economies, ending the era of pent-up demands for higher wages income and regulated welfare assistance, a government working in co-operation with other regional block or regional association members to form a regional sphere of parity, in the new Multi-Polar [21st] Century, in line with the [BRICS] Brazil, The Russian Federation, India, The Democratic Peoples Republic of China, and The Union of South Africa, and the [EU] European Union.

HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVININEN

[HERCULE TRIATHLON SAVINIEN]

EPOCHAL SIROCCO

EPOCHAL SIROCCO-GHIBILI ? Toward an Islamic Democracy
As epochal era of inevitable and irreversible Sirocco - Ghibili Sandstorm of change sweeps across the Middle East ending the American-Israeli Military Industrial Complex [EMPIRE] of colonial subjugation thru its placement and support of autocratic, totalitarian top down Divine Right of rule, despotic rulers. Being lead by and urbanized and connected youth with a democratic fervor, willing to go their own way and face the bumpy and unstable path, at best in a transition from autocracy to democracy. Are calling for a new form Middle East [NOT] based upon, or taking instructions from a copy cat western Neo Liberal Secular Democratic System, of fewer and fewer disenfranchised citizens choosing not to participate in superficial elections which are controlled thru gerrymandered unchanging candidate's, western style so called democratic elections, with no change to the status quo within its governmental ruling elite structures. Forming an Islamic Democracy, form of government established and based upon historic values of respect for human rights, based upon Islamic beliefs and values with Islamic representation, a constitutional freely elected Islamic Caliphate monarchy, power sharing, with a Parliamentary system of opposition political parties, a co-operative amalgamation based upon rights of free association and expression, the right petition the regress of grievances, demanding reforms to allowing the voice of the people to be heard, a free press providing the public a universal knowledge of government activities keeping a check upon government to report and abate corruption, the establishment of regional system of localized economies, ending the era of pent-up demands for higher wages income and regulated welfare assistance, a government working in co-operation with other regional block or regional association members to form a regional sphere of parity, in the new Multi-Polar [21st] Century, in line with the [BRICS] Brazil, The Russian Federation, India, The Democratic Peoples Republic of China, and The Union of South Africa, and the [EU] European Union.

[Ted S.]

I prefer Ricardo Montalb?n as a Kabuki actor in Sayonara.

He's also surprisingly good in the interesting Mystery Street.

[Ernst Berg]

Are these people serious?

A Bull and Bear fight? Where the goal is to collect admissions?
Prefabrication of our political choices for 2012?
The representative of the People of California is a Comedian?

We need a "for-the-people" only initiative for 2012 so we take a step no one can take away!
Business interests need to wait!
Cannabis people should be free to be Heirloom variety growers, Seed savers and private collectors of cannabis genetics that is not subject to a law that defines a simple plant as a manufactured goods.

[heller]

God fucking damn it Pittsburgh!

[John]

The Big Least strikes again. If your whole conference sucks and you just play each other, no one realizes, until the tournement that is, that you all just suck.

[Rock Action]

Oh, John. Stop cribbing Barkley. No no no. You could have the First Team All Big-East hurt. That tourney nukes each other. Siva. Kennedy, Walker, etc. Louisville played without their best player for ten minutes.

If it weren't for the offensive foul flops, Pitt would have won (nothing about the last seven seconds, which were correct).

Butler has become little Kaitlyn's favorite team. Soccer moms, unite!

[Fist of Etiquette]

Time to focus on the Pens. With Malkin out they're less likely to kill your spirit by taking dumb penalties at the absolute worst time.

[heller]

Fuck hockey.

[Fist of Etiquette]

That does seem to be the consensus view. If only they had thought to introduce brackets to promote fan participation...

[Sy]

As a Stars fan, I'd like to thank the Pens for Goligoski. Giving up a good, young forward for a d-man was hard to chew on at first.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Sorry to see Goose go, but it seems like a good trade for both organizations.

[Rock Action]

Oh, you're so last night.

[John]

So I see we started to bomb Libya today. Libya is a small country that has never invaded its neighbors, isn't a threat to the US, and is full of brown people. You guys know the routine. Or do we only say that when Republicans bomb countries?

Seriously, I won't be shedding any tears if Gadafi ends up on the end of a rope. But Libya, unlike Iraq, hasn't invaded any of its neighbors. It isn't in violation of any standing UN resolutions. And while it is bombing its civilians, Iraq gassed theirs.

I don't really have a problem with what we are doing in Libya. But I supported Iraq. Any person who ran around to 00s screaming about the illegal war and America invading a small country and so forth about Iraq better be saying the same things now.

[Tony]

I don't have a problem with getting rid of Gaddafi, but I do have a problem with the president just being able to decide to use our expensive missiles and planes without any taxpayer oversight or control.

[heller]

Oops, joke name heh heh.

[John]

Bush got Congressional authorization for Iraq. And if you don't have a problem with bombing someone, why have a problem with invading them?

I see your point about how bombing is less expensive for the US. But at the same time, Libyian lives are worth something to. If the cause isn't worth expending American blood, why is it worth taking Libyian blood?

[heller]

Congressional authorization is not the same thing as taxpayer control.

I DO have a problem with bombing someone, collateral damage. Unless we can go in, take Qaddafi and his men out, and then get out, I'm probably not going to support the "military action."

[John]

Congressional authorization is not the same thing as taxpayer control.

Only because Congress won't do its job. Congress could end the whole thing tommorow if it defunded it. All the power ultimately rests with Congress. And it is Congress' fault if it is not ulitlized.

[heller]

It's not just that Congress won't do its job, it's that it can't do its job.

[Binky]

All the power ultimately rests with Congress.

Then we are DOOMED.

[John]

More or less, Yes.

[MNG]

It's funny, I was just thinking yesterday that the Libya action is worth debating, but that the blundering warmongers like NeoCon John who pushed us into Iraq should be safely ignored in such a debate.

[John]

You really are a disgusting prick aren't you?

[MNG]

Whatever, I'm not a warmongering dupe like you Neocon John. We all remember your beating of the war drums against Iran and your cheerleading of Iraq. You're not a serious or credible voice in this debate.

[John]

And now you can beat the drums for war against Libya. So tell me MNG, when are you joining up to fight Obama's war? I did two tours in Bush's war lest I be called a chickenhawk.

Do you plan to do the same?

[MNG]

I have some serious problems with Obama's decision actually, which I express elsewhere.

I marched against the First and Second gulf wars and the Serbian bombings btw.

[John]

So I guess you will be hitting the baracades over this to? I would expect nothing less.

[Ted S.]

Can't we all just agree that MNG and John are both disgusting pricks? :-p

[John]

It is, however, going to be funny watching you lie and obfiscate as you explain why killing Libyans is really just a ok, but killing Iraqis wasn't.

[MNG]

NeoCon John's just upset because we are diverting resources from occupying Iraq and making war against Iran in this operation.

[John]

Who says I object to it? You mistakenly assume that I am as cravenly partisan and disgusting as you are.

[MNG]

Oh, I doubt a warmongerer like you objects to it or pretty much any military action, I just think you want to make some partisan points.

[John]

There is nothing partisan about it. I just want to laugh at you MNG.

[John]

And it is not like you have ever debated anyone about anything there MNG. Sorry but lying and defending the indefensible doesn't really count as debate.

[MNG]

"Libya is a small country"

Geography of Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaLibya is fourth in size among the countries of Africa and seventeenth among the countries of the world.

"that has never invaded its neighbors"

The conflict was marked by a series of four separate Libyan interventions in Chad, taking place in 1978, 1979, 1980?1981 and 1983?1987.

"It isn't in violation of any standing UN resolutions."

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/d.....penElement

"And while it is bombing its civilians, Iraq gassed theirs."

Notice the verb tense change here. One might find a difference between stopping current bombing and retribution for past gassing.

In other words, NeoCon John demonstrates the same breathtakingly careless thinking that got us into the last major war debacle. Seriously, these people have no credibility in the serious debate over Libya (or any military intervention).

[John]

Shorter MNG,

Our war is good and your war is bad. Good for you MNG. You have finally found a war you can support. Enjoy it while it lasts. In just two short years, there is likely to be a Republican holding the Presidency and you will have to be a peacenik again.

[MNG]

Sorry NeoCon John, I posted my thoughts of the current action yesterday on the other thread, and they are quite critical of Obama's decisions. But hey, go ahead and uncritically assume all kinds of things, it's how you and your ilk got us into some of the war debacles we are currently mired in...Why not call for Shirly Sherrod to be fired while you are at it?

"MNG|3.19.11 @ 9:00AM|#
On the no-fly zone: I guess I can see an argument that using force to prevent a dictator's use of superior arms to slaughter those bravely rising against him can actually be seen as a move towards peace (or at least a move toward ending a lopsided slaughter). On the other hand, no-fly zones and such often turn into extended operations. My beef is that they waited this long. Doing this when the rebels had the Big Mo would at least have had the advantage of maybe actually help topple the regime, but doing it now that the rebels are barely holding on strikes me as having all the disadvantages of adventurism when little of the benefits can be gained."

[John]

So what? You don't like the tactics. Buy that says nothing about whether you think we should be there in the first place. If it was immoral to invade Iraq, it is probably immoral to bomb Libya and prolong a civil war leading to God knows how many deaths.

[MNG]

There's a difference between air strikes and invasion/occupying and a difference between aiding an active, progressing civil war and regime change of an already crippled nation, at least there is a difference to most people excluding warmongering Neocons like yourself.

And even given those differences my distaste for military action is represented in what I said: "On the other hand, no-fly zones and such often turn into extended operations." But that's just one of those pesky details you glide over I guess. Fire Shirley Sherrod, WMDS, and such!!!

[John]

It is your side's war MNG. Your guy. Mr. Hope and Change has now fired more cruise missiles in anger than all the other Nobel Prize winners combined. How is that Hope and Change thing working out for you? At least Bush only tried to fight two wars. BO the magnificent is going for three, including one intervention in a entirely internal civil war without any advance planning, debate, or Congressional authorization.

Now tell me again how Obama is so much different than Bush?

[MNG]

There's the difference that while I criticized Obama from his nomination on and on his conduct on the war you were Bush's War Cheerleader.

[John]

And you will be voting for Obama in 2012 like the abused little bitch you are, won't you MNG? But you are so critical.

[JoshInHB]

Mr. Hope and Change has now fired more cruise missiles in anger than all the other Nobel Prize winners combined.

He's also ordered the assassination of more people than any other Peace prize winner. Which is quite an achievement considering Arafat is in that club.

[John]

"There's a difference between air strikes and invasion"

I am thinking the people in Libya currently doging cruise missiles fired by a Nobel Peace Prize winner might have a hard time seeing that difference

[heller]

Children, children, I think we all can agree that you are both partisan hacks. Please quit this useless war for our affections.

[DNS]

Please quit this useless war for our affections.

Whoever cuts the most spending, and I don't mean piddly pennies, will get my swoonage.

[R C Dean]

I have a very serious problem with what we are doing in Libya in the absence of any Congressional authorization at all. Not even a fig leaf AUMF.

[R C Dean]

There's a difference between air strikes and invasion/occupying

Both are acts of war, so I don't really see a difference that make a difference.

and a difference between aiding an active, progressing civil war and regime change of an already crippled nation

I'm not sure how Iraq was any more of a crippled nation than Libya. And I don't see how the ongoing conflict with the Kurds wasn't an active, ongoing civil war.

[MNG]

I don't know what to say to you if you don't see the difference between limited air strikes and invasion/occupation. They involve different words because they involve different things. Saying they are the same because they both fall into the category "acts of war" is like saying farting in a crowded room and crapping on the floor in the same are the same because they are both "acts of boorish behavior."

Importantly for me, the latter carries much more risk for loss of life by our troops and is much more expensive.

[John]

So it is okay to kill people as long as you don't get your hands dirty doing it. Whatever gets you through the night there MNG. But war is war no matter how you cut it. And the people dying in Libya are just as dead and just as human as anyone in Iraq.

[Sy]

Amazing. "Fuck the collateral damage and the civilian death toll, I'm all for blowing the shit out of this fuckign country. Fuck their people, but FUCK BUSH MORE!!"

[MNG]

That's a fair point, it's a concern I have as well. Those Neocons who have attacked the War Powers Act and the principles behind it are largely to blame along with a cowardly legislative branch of government.

[John]

It is just that damn bastard Johnson in the Whitehouse isn't it MNG?

[DNS]

I have a very serious problem with what we are doing in Libya in the absence of any Congressional authorization at all. Not even a fig leaf AUMF.

He may as well come right out and declare himself Czar of the US, since he is so fond of unaccountable government positions.

[nekoxgirl]

I'm looking forward to talking to my Democrat-leaning, Obama-loving parents how they feel about Libya considering they were all "Bush is a war criminal" a few years ago.

[John]

But nekoxgirl, it is different this time. Bombs dropped by Democrats don't actually kill people. These are nice bombs.

[JoshInHB]

What's important is that Obama is killing Libyans for the right reasons and with pure intentions.

War is wrong when it advances an American interest and right when it is pointless.

[Jimmy Olsen]

I think "Fine Corinthian" would be a good name for a strain of pot.

[MNG]

A common effect of the strain wouold be taking off your shirt, gazing glassily into the sky and reciting Melville and Shakespeare in reference to hated enemies. I could dig that.

[Ted S.]

Corinthian leather is, unsurprisingly, on Youtube

[Jo Dunst]

Wow, OK this dude makes a LOT of sense.

http://www.real-privacy.it.tc

[Almanian]

It's Sunday, and John and MNG are fighting ad nauseum.

The sun rises in the east, dog bites man, death, taxes, the Earth spins solidly on its normal axis...

[John]

Everyone has their role in the world I guess.

[MNG]

"John and MNG are fighting"

Uncritical, partisan dupes and skeptical, nuanced independents will be found ever thus I'm afraid.

I'm on record criticizing this action authorized by a Dem President, while John actually says he's not opposed to it ("Who says I object to it?"), he just wants to make some partisan hay.

[John]

So I am a partisan because I support the President. Yeah, that makes sense.

Look MNG, there is nothing partisan about this. It is about laughing at you and you along. It is about watching you try to explain how killing and bombing Libyans is somehow different than killing Iraqis.

I guess scrapnel send by a Democratic President is somehow nobel.

[MNG]

I realize your reading is about as bad as your spelling, but my comments yesterday when the bombing started were hardly an endorsement of this action. I think it's a much more defensible move than invading and occupying a hostile nation under the pretext of WMD (yet another conservative ruse that duped NeoCon John), yes, but one fraught with problems nonetheless.

[John]

Yes MNG, when you have no other point to make, talk about spelling. And the principle of sovereignty is the same in both. You can't say "well it is okay to bomb a country but it is not okay to invade". Either Libya is a sovereign nation or it is not. And let's not even talk about the lack of public debate or Congressional authorization on this.

The bottomline is things like national sovereignty, non intervention and Congressional oversight only mean something to you when a Republican is in office. Obama could nuke Libya and the best he would get from you is a disapointed frown.

It is not so much that you are pathetic transparant hack that makes you the worst troll on here. It is that you have somehow convinced yourself you are not.

[MNG]

That's as incorrect as the many incorrect points in your original post on this subject.

Like I said to RC Dean, equating limited air strikes to an invasion/occupation because both are violations of national sovriegnty is like equating farting in a crowded room with crapping on the floor in the same room because both fall into the category rude behavior. Nice wiggling there NeoCon John!

[sloopyinca]

The sun rises in the east, dog bites man, death, taxes, the Earth spins solidly on its normal axis...

The quake/tsunami actually changed the earth's rotation. Thus, I'm not surprised to see MNG acting the quasi-chickenhark and John to be more dovish than ever before. You guys are certainly more predictible that the NCAA tourney.

[Almanian]

This is true, but the changed rotational axis is The New Normal?, so it's all good.

[John]

I am not doveish. I don't know what the President knows. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that this is for the best, at least for now.

But, what I do object to is people like MNG pretending that this is not a war or that it is somehow not really a violation of Libya's sovereignty in the name of international law.

[John]

And if McCain were President, I would have the exact same opinion. MNG I would imagine would be singing a bit different tune.

[Bizzaro World MNG]

"If Obama had been elected instead of McCain, the wars in the Middle East would be over!"

[R C Dean]

Uncritical, partisan dupes and skeptical, nuanced independents will be found ever thus I'm afraid.

Too many words, MNG. 😉

[John]

Funny that I am a Partisan because I support a Democratic President.

[MNG]

So you support all wars, ok Neocon John. I guess that is a kind of a consistency, warmongerer.

[John]

You are such a piece of shit. If I came out against this war, you would be screaming I was a partisan out to get Obama. If I come out for it, then I am a war monger.

And BTW, I dare you to come to a Reason event and call me that to my face. Make sure I am really drunk before you do it so it might be a fair fight.

As I said below, you are only trying to be thoughtful and reasonable about this because a Democrat is in office. Had McCain did it you would be screaming and throwing shit just like you did throughout the 00s.

If you can't stop lying to yourself, at least stop lying to all of us. We know who you are.

[MNG]

"I dare you to come to a Reason event and call me that to my face"

Wow, he's even violent when denying his warmongering! At ease Keyboard Kommando!

[John]

I also love how I am a "neo con". I guess at some point in my life I was a Jewish leftist and had some kind of Men in Black mind errasure done to my memory of it.

[John]

MARCH 19, 2011
OBAMA: 'Today we are part of a broad coalition. We are answering the calls of a threatened people. And we are acting in the interests of the United States and the world'...

...MARCH 19, 2003
BUSH: 'American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the... world from grave danger'...

The irony of that is just too great. God apparently does have a sense of humor.

[God]

Hey, don't drag Me into this crap.

[MNG]

Poor NeoCon John and his careless thinking...

Notice how "to disarm Iraq" is listed by Bush and not at all by Obama, and listed first, along with the accompanying "defend the... world from grave danger'". We all remember the WMD selling of the war as much as warmongerers like NeoCon John would like us to forget how much they were duped by the meme...

This action is much more comparable to Bosnia than Iraq (so far).

[John]

It is comparable because a Democrat is doing it. When Republicans start wars, you are an American hating jackass. When Democrats do it, you all of the sudden are mr reasonable independent.

You are so pathetic and transparent. If McCain had done this, you would be screaming at the top of your lungs. And everyone knows that. You can call me names all you want. But everyone knows the truth.

[heller]

John, has a point, you're both partisan hacks.

[MNG]

This is like John's fifth post where he careens into his "you're a liar, you're lying, everybody knows you're a hack, noone likes you" five year old bit. Delightful!

I like how you accuse those who question foriegn adventurism of being "American hating jackass[es]." Notice that's the same thing the neocons pulled on Buchanan, Ron Paul and other GOPers who questioned their adventurism. True to form Neocon John, true to form!

[What he meant to say]

skeptical, nuanced independents

I'm Batman.

[P Brooks]

Tom Friedman (you know where to find him) apparently wants the Ascended One to dissolve the legislature and rule by decree.

For the children planet.

[Almanian]

Wait - I thought this already happened. No?

[robc]

you know where to find him

Actually, I dont and for this Im thankful. I also thank you for not providing a link because I might have clicked thru.

[Almanian]

You guys still fightin'? COME ON, NASCAR IN A BIT AT BRISTOL (speaking of fighting) AND THE FIRST MOTOGP RACE OF THE SEASON AT QATAR!! Go Nicky, Ben amd Colin - woooo USA! USA! USA! USA!

Can't we all just get along? No? Didn't think so...:)

[Barrack Obama]

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."

[sloopyinca]

Yeah, but he was just trying to get his base riled up. It's like his "bitter clingers" remark. I guess to the media it doesn't count because ....well, just because.

Fucking hypocrites, all of them. Those war hawks on the right are raising hell but they'd be cheering if a Repub did this. The Dems are cheering Obama's "righteousness," yet decried Bush for doing essentially the same thing in Iraq.

Hell, at least Bush had evidence that the Irsaquis were a threat to us. (Whether right or wrong, about 80% of the Dem's believed the evidence as well.) Obama has no such thing other than the evidence that he will lose popularity if he sits on the sideline while the French and Norwegians go in.

This makes me wanna puke. And not in a good way, either.

[P Brooks]

Watching NASCAR (especially at a place like Bristol) is like watching a toilet flush.

YMMV

But I *did* just set my receiver to switch to the MotoGP race.

[Rock Action]

Now I'm sorry for harping on John about basketball. Not a friendly thread. I normally have no problems with MNG, but he is hacking this time. We won't idly sit by while a tyrant shows no mercy? That's our standard? Thank God it doesn't include the clerics in Iran.

[sloopyinca]

Thank God it doesn't include the clerics in Iran.

It only includes soft targets. Obama looks at an easy military win as his ticket to four more years of golf, vacation and mass knee-bending by his subjects.

[DNS]

Obama looks at an easy military win as his ticket to four more years of golf, vacation and mass knee-bending by his subjects.

I'm convinced that this is nothing more than a convenient distraction, as far as he is concerned, from the political fallout of his terrible policies and the Republicans' milquetoast, pansy response to them. They are breathing a sigh of relief, as they have the equivalent of a shiny toy to wave in hawks' faces. "Teh Lockerbie! We shall avenge thee!" A great kicking the can down the road moment, real manna from heaven, politically speaking. Wisconsin who? Japan what? Fiscal crises when? ObamaCare where? Pa-tooey.

[sloopyinca]

Unfortunately, your analysis is spot on.

The pussies running the RNC had all the momentum in the world coming out of the last elections. It was a real opportunity, and the fuckers blew it.

[MNG]

I don't think it was a distraction. There was great pressure in Europe and places like Egypt for something to be done to support the rebels. If nothing were done it would have looked to many like we hung them out to dry...Obama ran as a multi-lateralist, he's actually just doing that.

As I said, supporting air strikes can be seen differently than a full invasion/occupation. The former usually risks many less American lives and is much less expensive to wage. Sadly though as I've already said it can tend to escalate further into the kind of mess folks like Neocon John pushed us into in Iraq. Either way waiting until the rebels were on their heels was terrible, it almost guarantees a slow war of attrition in Libya with us and Nato as the refs...

[Eric]

Hey asshole, the Big O also ran on closing Gitmo and on closing shop on Iraq: I'm pretty sure that he didn't suddenly start taking his own word seriously. "Great pressure"?! What the fuck does that mean? France throwing a hissy fit? Gee, I'm concerned. There's more "great pressure" concentrated in Obama's asshole when he takes a dump than there was "pressure" for military intervention in Libya. Unless, of course, you mean the standard bloviation of NGOs and European countries when it comes to atrocities that they would like to stop with the lives of those American brutes that they like to rag on in all other contexts. IOW, no pressure, given the non-effects of avoiding Darfur, the DRC, and the various kleptocracies in third-world shitholes.

BTW, WTF is our goal in Libya? Because I haven't heard from Obama and the other savants, and I'd like to know how many Americans we can realistically expect to see "honored" after they lose their lives in a shithole of no significance.

[MNG]

My goodness you are an idiot, I criticized Obama's actions here (see my post @ 9:56 above).

I guess not equating them with invading Iraq=full throated praise to you.

[Rock Action]

To be fair to you, I really only did scan your comments.

But to be fair to me, even before I said anything, I was going to joke about how the line-drawing on the left was going to begin with respect to the humanitarian nature and non-occupation aspect of the Libya intervention while completely downplaying the previous administration's other stated intent when invading Iraq. Which was building democratic institutions. Sure enough, you've done exactly that. You solely talked about WMD and lies. Not a word about time and resources spent trying to build a democracy. That reeks of partisanship.

I understand distinguishing situations, but if I'm nothing if not an idiot, you're nothing if not predictable, and the line-drawing you're doing (however legitimate or debatable) just happens to benefit your general political outlook. And those distinctions are --predictably -- going to be the new talking points for the politically-inclined left so that it can save face about all the hollering it did for eight years.

[heller]

I love watching partisan hacks contort themselves like the worms they truly are.

[DNS]

I love watching partisan hacks contort themselves like the worms they truly are.

As do I heller. Problem is, whichever one of them "wins" out in the end, we get stuck with the bill. We always get stuck with the costs of their foolishness. A pox on both their houses, for eternity.

[P Brooks]

this old man

he played four

sent some children off to war

with a nick nack party hack

throw the dog a stick

new boss old boss make me sick

[Paul]

What's the future of marijuana reform in California, and what does California's experience mean for the rest of this great stoned country?

That "tax us, regulate us, set us free" gets the exact results one would expect?

[jake]

its about time we get some activist supporting MMJ. We need support like this!