Think Twice About Buying GM Stock as a Private Citizen! (Or as a Taxpayer!)
We've been down this road before:
Hey, didn't you hear that the GM bailout is working out just swell! Why, we're likely to make us a profit on the bailout, so let's not dawdle over details, such as whether the whole goddamn thing was even legal in the first place (because it wasn't!).
The first time we heard this happy-happy line was when then CEO Ed Whitacre took to the airwaves to lie about GM's payback of its TARP loans "in full and ahead of schedule." (See below for why that argument had about as much credibility as a Chevy Citation's cooling system).
Now GM has done its first stock IPO and everything is on track for a happy ending. Right? Right! Right?
GM sold about 478 million shares Wednesday at $33 each, a price higher than the company and its bankers thought was possible just days ago. An additional 71.7 million shares are expected to be sold by GM's bankers as part of an "overallotment" allowed when sales are stronger than expected. And it sold $4.35 billion in preferred shares.
So come on, tell us, how'd we (and by we, I mean the taxpayer/owners) do? The good news is that the sale will reduce the government's ownership stake from about 61 percent to 26 percent. The bad news?:
With Wednesday's sale, including the overallotment, the Treasury lost roughly $4.5 billion on GM shares it acquired at an effective cost of $43.84 apiece. The Treasury would need to reap $26.4 billion, or an average of $52.79 a share, on its remaining stake to break even.
The rest of the government's shares will be pushed out into the market if and when the company and stock perform well over time.
As we wait for that to happen, keep in mind that the financial press in general and the automotive press in specific is a tool for the industries it covers. As recently as late September, for instance, you could find jackasses claiming that GM stock would be worth $134 a share, enough to wipe out the $50 billion bailout in a single bound:
Morningstar analyst David Whiston issued a preliminary estimate setting the shares' fair value at $134.
"GM's cost structure is drastically improved," Whiston wrote in a Sept. 13 note to investors. "We think GM's earning potential is excellent because it finally has a healthy North American unit and can focus its marketing efforts on just four brands instead of eight…. We think it is critical for investors to know that GM now makes excellent car models as well as light trucks."
$134 was the magic number estimated by Neil Barofsky, the special inspector general for TARP, for taxpayers to recoup their/our money in a single bound. Barofsky gave the figure in a letter to Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa).
But that was then, and this is the imaginary future, where the government will cash out your/mine/ours remaining 500 million shares at around $53 a pop to kinda-sorta break even. Which is a kinda-really a stretch given that Ford, the one U.S.-owned company that weathered the past few years without government help and hence is probably better run, is trading at around $16 a share. (For the record, GM's historical high for stock before it went into bankruptcy was $93.63, in 2000. That came to a total market cap of $57 billion.)
Oh yeah, and the guy who oversaw GM's fabulous restructuring, Steven Rattner, told Bloomberg News that the U.S. is likely to lose between $5 billion and $7 billion on the full auto-sector bailout of about $82 billion (and which included parts manufacturers, too).
But the important thing to remember is: The IPO proves the GM bailout wasn't just good politics, but good business. Got it?
All those questions about the rule of law, whether it's a good idea for the government to bail out a company that lost records amount of dough the very year it sold the most cars ever, whether the domestic-owned auto industry is locking in amber workers and resources that could be productively used elsewhere, or even whether the feds coulda made more money parking that $50 billion in a Bank of Iceland Christmas Club account -well, just forget 'em.
There's nothing to see here, just poor-performing tales that will continue to roll off the media assembly line like so many 2010 Chevy Cobalts destined for scrap heaps ("cramped backseat, mediocre fit and finish, missing common safety features, lack of interior storage, dull handling [except for the SS], poor braking on XFE models").
UPDATE: I appreciate various commenters exposing my glib and mistaken apples-to-oranges (apples-to-lemons?) comparison regarding the relative stock prices of Ford and GM. Note that the $134 share price noted above is mentioned to illustrate the ways in which the media is always ready to tell a happy story about bailouts paying for themselves.
Also in the comments, Ken Schultz flags another related story from the Wall Street Journal, one that discusses a different type of preferential treatment for GM. The post-bankruptcy "new" GM won't have to pay $45.4 billion taxes on future profits:
The tax benefit stems from so-called tax-loss carry-forwards and other provisions, which allow companies to use losses in prior years and costs related to pensions and other expenses to shield profits from U.S. taxes for up to 20 years. In GM's case, the losses stem from years prior to when GM entered bankruptcy.
So there's no misundertanding, this is unusual given the type of restructuring that GM went through:
Usually, companies that undergo a significant change in ownership risk having major restrictions put on their tax benefits. The U.S. bailout of GM, in which the Treasury took a 61% stake in the company, ordinarily would have resulted in GM having such limits put on its tax benefits, according to tax experts.
But the federal government, in a little-noticed ruling last year, decided that companies that received U.S. bailout money under the Troubled Asset Relief Program won't fall under that rule.
"The Internal Revenue Service has decided that the government's involvement with these companies, both its acquisitions plus its disposals of their stock, means they should be exempt" from the rule, said Robert Willens, a New York tax consultant who advises investment banks and hedge funds.
There's little doubt that the ruling makes GM stock more attractive to potential investors. And it's not surprising that the government didn't do anything to make last year's "little-known ruling" any better-known. Or that nobody in Treasury was talking it up today as they did their victory laps about the GM triumph. [End of update]
Related: "How the Hell Did GM Pay Back Its Loans 'In Full and Ahead of Schedule?' Well, It Didn't":
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Comparing a $53 per share price to a $16 per share price in a company with different numbers of outstanding shares is apples-to-oranges. A stock split does not suddenly make a company half as valuable, for example.
Exactly. Thanks for saving me a post.
Oops.
shhh... keep the markets inefficient.
For the record Ford has 3.5B shares outstanding, GM has 610M.
Which puts the apples-to-apples comparison at about $93 for Ford.
I also cringed when I read that paragraph.
Not me, but then I was lookin' at the forest.
"Does Firenza mean rust bucket in Esperanto?"
I leanred to drive in an 87 Firenza. Its engine sounded like bees in a coffee can.
(I think I stole that line from PJ O'Rourke, but I've been using it so long I don't remember for sure.)
82 Trans Am with T-Tops that leaked whenever it rained. It was equipped with what the AAA guys referred to as "variable electronics"--sometimes it would start, sometimes it wouldn't, and then the hunt for the offending loose wire would begin.
But man, when it ran, it could tear up the roads. I may have been a geek in a rust bucket, but in my mind I was the second coming of the Bandit.
'74 Ford Maverick and a '78 Mustang II. I'll have to scan old pictures. You will not believe how ugly that Mustang was until you actually see it.
BTW, they were old cars before mum let me get my hands on them. She isn't an idiot (though, sadly, a democrat).
'80 Chevette.
Biggest. Piece. Of. Shit. Ever.
I nominate the '82 Buick Century as Biggest. Piece. etc.
I nicknamed it the 'albatross'.
the guy who oversaw GM's fabulous restructuring, Steven Rattner
He's all today's news today.
Channeling GM defenders:
The Chevy Volt just won Motor Trend Car of the Year. Your argument is invalid.
That was the ad right below this thread.
Whee. Volt.
Who in hell reads Motor Trend apart from GM's executives?
Was it pumped by Car and Driver? Somehow I doubt it. But only a car magazine with P.J. writing for it has any credibility in my book.
I was thinking the motor trend car of the year award meant something, then I actually looked at some of the award winners of the past:
2004 Toyota Prius - Not my cup of tea, but evidently, a lot of people like the ones they drive.
2002 Ford Thunderbird - Seriously?
1981 Chrysler K Cars - My parents bought one of these. It explains why I was skinny as a young kid. It was always broken down, so we had to walk everywhere.
1980 Chevrolet Citation - WTF? Did they actually drive it? Or look at it? Or talk to anyone who did either?
1972 Citro?n SM - And so the list turns to self parody.
Conclusion: Motor Trend hates cars.
My sister bought a Motor Trend Car of the year, and it had the little vinyl banner pronouncing that information in it when she got it.
It was a Renault Alliance, which was sadly, just the first in my sister's long line of poor car choices.
Exactly. People who like cars don't read Motor Trend. Self-congratulatory executives, the incompetent sorts who have run GM for 40 years, do.
1980 Chevrolet Citation - WTF? Did they actually drive it? Or look at it? Or talk to anyone who did either?
Say what you want about that car, but I had one and to this day, I've never sat in a car that had as much legroom (I'm 6'5" that matters to me). Yes, they were ugly, however, and had many mechanical problems.
A car so fantastic the federal government is offering up to $7,500 in tax rebates to sell you one!
And also, this fucking car isn't even at dealers yet, how can it be car of the year?
Nobel Peace Prize, MT Car of the Year, just another award.
What are you, some kind of cynic?
Poor, poor, Tinkerbell! Won't somebody clap for her?
I think this is the wrong approach. Somebody needs to add together the total taxpayer bill for all those bailouts combined.
Nobody knows how much money Fannie and Freddie are losing us right now since they're in government stewardship...but I guarantee it makes the GM/Fiasler bailout look like pocket change.
The real bailout of Wall St. is through Fannie and Freddie. That and shady accounting tricks (understating the cost of AIG's bailout by $40 billion) is how the government is able to say TARP worked and made a profit.
A couple trillion easy quants helps to.
The general principle works like this:
The government borrows Joe Campaign Contributor 10 billion. Later, the government borrows Joe another 15 billion. Joe then pays back the government 12 billion. Government claims it made a profit of two billion.
I heard some fucking moron (possibly the current future-ex-CEO of General Motors) say this morning, "The VOLT is an electric car you can drive from coast to coast."
Not without stopping every three hundred miles or so to fill up the gas tank, you can't. What a bunch of worthless lying shitbags.
Hey GM: You can ride a skateboard from coast to coast, too. So?
... the U.S. is likely to lose between $5 billion and $7 billion on the full auto-sector bailout of about $82 billion (and which included parts manufacturers, too).
So of the $82B we "lent" to the auto industry, we're getting $75B to $77B back? That's actually much better than I expected.
Those are only the losses that are seen. How much was lost by keeping capital tied up in a failing company that could have been put to use more efficiently? We will never know that number, but it's an important loss to consider in all of this.
This article was nicely accompanied by an ad for the Chevy Volt.
The stock is good for day traders. But those who buy and hold? Disaster! Stay away!
There are no sure things in life.
Except this: Wait a month and short GM.
(Your mileage may vary.)
Equity valuations are far too complex for your run-of-the-mill libertarian but suffice it to say that today's GM market value has priced in the fact that GM has shucked much of its debt, finance subsidiaries, and pension obligations.
But as a general rule if you are buying an IPO after it opens you are just about the last sucker at the poker table (Google being one of the few exceptions).
You don't even get to the table. You are in the lobby looking in.
Finance models aren't that complex. Don't fool yourself.
did it shuck the UAW?
Considering that GM has an enterprise value of under $4B on over $130B in revenue, it's still being valued as close to worthless. It's basically trading at a level equal to to cash minus debt and preferred equity).
Hey, you aren't supposed to understand those things!
Many libertarians tend to devolve into goldbugs (which makes them right once every 30 years). This is a fact - see the Paul family for example.
The Mark Cubans of the world are rare but he is no doubt a great investor.
Many liberals tend to devolve into political hacks (which makes them right only in their own minds). This is a fact - see the Paul family for example.
I'm pretty sure you're not an analyst, which is a good thing be cause it seems you, like many, can't delineate between economic and business theory and political beliefs.
Do we have a little hero worship going on? If so dear god why Cuban? He's a dot com baby?
as a general rule if you are buying an IPO after it opens you are just about the last sucker at the poker table
I am amazed Shrike actually wrote something that wasn't completely idiotic.
Equity valuations are far too complex for your run-of-the-mill libertarian
Shrike inadvertently gave the best advice a stock broker can give.
Unless you live and breath stock markets you should not invest one dime in them...not as an investor and not in your retirement plan.
-Analysts more often than not tend to be monkeys in suits. (If they are Booth grades they are slaves to models)
-IPOs generally suck.
-This is of course, no regular IPO.
-There's a deeper circle jerk going on between GM and companies on the government dole. (See GE)
Around the time GM was bailed out F was around $5-6, this week 16+. I'd take Mulally's restructure over Whitacre's DC knob slobbering.
Which they couldn't do today.
Ford mortgaged (secured creditors anyone?) every goddam thing they owned, up to and including the blue oval to get the cash to pay suppliers, meet payroll and continue to sell cars while restructuring the entire moribund company. Since secured creditors now take a back seat to unsecured union interests, they would have to pay a much higher interest on the loans today if they could get them at all.
They would instead have to attach themselves to one of the federal sow's corporate nipples, declare bankruptcy and leave all stockholders (some of them real people) with worthless scraps of paper.
No unintended consequences to see here, move along.
They also entered a lot of the agreements to raise funds for the restructure prior to the meltdown. Mullaly was already moving the company model when the shit hit the fan.
Saying they couldn't do it today is moot, the company started the restructure before the crash, and because of that was in a position to weather the crash. So, one company had the foresight to see a need for change while another kept on with the same busted business model. Since business in general is forward looking I think the guys that saw the need and started, getting lucky in doing it before a crash, probably deserve a little credit for running a good business.
Saying "they would have if," is just as bad as "it would have been worse if we didn't."
Don't worry, the government can then just pass a rule that mandates creditors can only charge certain amounts of interest (therefore crushing what remains of the credit industry). Economic illiterates run our country.
Like I said, short this pig.
But that was then, and this is the imaginary future, where the government will cash out your/mine/ours remaining 500 million shares at around $53 a pop to kinda-sorta break even. Which is a kinda-really a stretch given that Ford, the one U.S.-owned company that weathered the past few years without government help and hence is probably better run, is trading at around $16 a share.
This is terrible analysis and ignores the different numbers of shares outstanding and differing revenues.
Right now Ford is trading at an EV/R of 1.1x. GM has an estimated EV of $3.4B for an EV of 0.3x. If GM traded at the same EV/R as Ford, it would have a market cap of $127. That ain't gonna happen.
Currently, GM has more cash on hand than their current market cap indicates. If GM traded at a level where their market cap equaled their cash on hand, it would be $54.82. Of course, they have $8.5B in debt to go along with the $33.5B in cash. If you net out the cash an the debt (ignoring the preferred equity), it would trade at $42.46.
I have no interest in buying either F or GM but just looked at F's debt of $116B. You're saying GM now has only $8.5B in debt today?
Unless their 10-Q from a week ago is lying, yes. Of course, that's just as of September 30. Keep in mind the government wiped out a ton of their debt.
In that case you must be miscalculating GM's EV. You state above it is $4B.
And don't they have a lot of NOL carryovers?
You've got me interested now.
EV = Enterprise Value = Market Cap - Cash + Debt + Pref Equity + Minority Interest
Market Cap = $21.3 B
Cash = $33.5 B
Debt = $8.6 B
Pref Equity = $7 B
Minority Interest = $1 B
Looks like I initially forgot to add back their minority interest. So it's enterprise value is actually about $4.4 B, not the $3.4 B I initially tossed out. My bad.
its not it's. Feh!
Thanks.
Using revenue based ratios for GM is going to be further skewed since a portion of sales are being generated outside market forces through agreements and ties to the companies once largest stake holder, the government, and the rent seeking companies that have short term interests with the company due to government incentives. (ie. the battery incentives and the volt that tie GE and GM together)
I don't think most predictions of GMs ability to generate operating revenue are accurate.
I agree that using a revenue based multiple is not the right measurement, but it gives us a reasonable upper bound. I couldn't use the PE because GM had negative earnings. If you go by EV/EBITDA multiple, GM is trading at 0.5x. This compares to Ford's 10.5x EV/EBITDA. If GM could get to half of that, it would trade at ~$85.
I do agree that its future revenue growth and profitability are at a very significant risk. That's why it's trading for basically equal to its net cash position.
I didn't mean to argue the point or use of EV/R. I agree with the use of such ratios, but feel that all too often what drives the ratios is left to the mysteries of the universe. (the whole slave to models and not enough attention on the assumptions in the models paradigm) I completely agree with all your points.
So, according to my finance/English dictionary, people are paying 10% of a premium of the net asset value of Ford, because they believe it's viable as a business, while GM buyers aren't even paying for the cash GM has on hand, meaning they expect GM to lose it fairly rapidly.
Kinda, but not really. Ford's book value (Total Assets - Intangible Assets - Liabilities) is -$1.8B (-$0.51/share). So investors are valuing the equity at about $57B ($16.75/share). GM's book value is -$20B and is trading at a $21B market cap, so they're valuing GM's equity at $41B.
The reason for the big difference is EV is based purely on equity + debt - cash, while book value is the theoretical liquidation value of the company. GM has >$45B in accrued expenses and accounts payable* sitting on its balance sheet and loads of intangibles to boot.
However, GM's balance sheet is a mess and likely full of landmines. I wouldn't want to touch that with a 30 foot pole.
* Which one would be responsible for in a liquidation.
OTOH, when you look at it from an EV POV, you're basically valuing the company that's not debt or cash at $4.5B, which is pretty close to worthless for a company that generates that much revenue.
This means nothing without more info.
As recently as late September, for instance, you could find jackasses claiming that GM stock would be worth $134 a share, enough to wipe out the $50 billion bailout in a single bound...
No jackass I know would ever say anything THAT stupid...
GM has a "cleaner" balance sheet than Ford, because they sent Uncle Sam's designated hitter Knuckles McBonebreaker to negotiate with the secured creditors.
In other news Tesla Motors (an actual new American Auto Company) got fined $275,000 by the EPA for not doing emissions tests.
Telsa Motors makes cars that exclusively run on electricity that have no emissions.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/201.....rs-275000/
Far be it from me to criticize a tax cut for anybody, but there's one other piece of information that Mr. Gillespie's excellent post left out...
"GM Could Be Free of Taxes for Years"
...
Now it turns out, according to documents filed with federal regulators, the revamping left the car maker with another boost as it prepares to return to the stock market. It won't have to pay $45.4 billion in taxes on future profits.
...
Usually, companies that undergo a significant change in ownership risk having major restrictions put on their tax benefits. The U.S. bailout of GM, in which the Treasury took a 61% stake in the company, ordinarily would have resulted in GM having such limits put on its tax benefits, according to tax experts.
But the federal government, in a little-noticed ruling last year, decided that companies that received U.S. bailout money under the Troubled Asset Relief Program won't fall under that rule.
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....03202.html
So, if we're gonna tally up the cost to the taxpayers of the GM bailout? I'd subtract the difference between the $134 a share and the IPO today, which puts us in the hole for about $100 a share--and if we're gonna add in the "cost to the taxpayers"? Then I think we need to add in the extra $45 billion in lost revenue that this unique tax break is gouging the U.S. taxpayer for too!
Why wouldn't we add in the additional $45 billion in lost revenue?
Oh, so you're saying that just because we give them a special exemption that no one else gets, that's a "cost to the taxpayer"? What, like the government is entitled to all of their income and is just generously letting them keep some of it? Statist swine!
They have no right to that money anyway!
Usually? That's my take!
But if we're gonna be honest about the cost to taxpayers?
Gotta put it on the ledger.
The cost to taxpayer is the cost to taxpayers.
$33 per share minus $134 per share minus another $45 billion.
Those are our losses on GM. They're takin' it outta our future paychecks.
Have a nice day!
More pork to the favored few - it's all oink, oink...
If it's based on losses, then they should get the carryover. Instead of picking winners, how about lifting the limit for everyone? Admittedly I know nothing about the nature of GM's losses.
Everyone does get to retain NOL carryovers. Except I believe (not sure though) they are wiped out in bankruptcy court for others.
"You can't form new GM, which has never transacted business before, and sell the assets (of existing GM) and then sell the net tax benefit to the new company," Coyne says. "And as far as I can tell, the NOL is not a saleable asset." An NOL, or net operating loss, can be used as a tax loss carry forward, an accounting technique that allows it to be applied to future profits to reduce tax liability."
(The Street.com)
yeah, my bad. BK was really muffed in this GM/taxpayer deal. i amend my previous post to now read: "it should be added to taxpayer subsidy. fuck GM."
A tax holiday for all companies?
I have wondered sometimes if, especially when it comes to auto companies, why they don't complain more.
Especially the foreign auto companies--this would seem to violate the spirit if not the letter of some of our free trade agreements.
Does Nissan have to pay taxes on their profits? Why is that fair?
If you're suggesting that taxpayers like us should get a tax cut to help fund these losses?
You gotta take a step back and think about this in tangible terms. Losses aren't paid for by tax cuts. These losses, theses costs? That was real money that's already gone and spent. Somebody has to fund them. They have to be covered with real money that comes from somewhere.
The other thing to remember is that we took these losses on the day we took over GM--not the day we sold the stock...
If I pay $10 a share for a stock that's only worth $1 a share, I don't lose my money the day I sell the shares for $1. I lost my money the day I paid $10 a share. All the rest of the time I was just in dreamland--there's no such thing as a paper loss. But there is such a thing as a margin call!
It's like being upside down on a house. Just because I paid $400,000 for a house, that doesn't mean it's worth $400,000. It might only be worth $200,000 'cause that's what similar houses are selling for...
Same thing here. So, we took these losses a long time ago--we took them when Obama stepped into the UAW's negotiations with GM management, and the day he took it over almost two years ago? Was the day we took the losses...
And we can't fund those losses with tax cuts. Losses have to be covered with revenue. And we've been funding these losses. Some of it in the form of interest on the debt--and that money comes from, among other places, your paycheck. You've already paid for some of these losses--you're gonna pay for the rest of them too.
But look at the bright side--at least the UAW members got to keep their fat pensions!
Sorry so long, but the end there is what this all boils down to...
The Obama Administration put the American taxpayer on the hook to save the UAW's pension fund--the UAW being a big supporter of the Obama Administration.
And when it all gets boiled down, that's what it comes down to.
When the shell game's over, you're funding the UAW pension plan, and the Obama Administration can never make that a net positive for working taxpayers like us.
They'll use the kind of smoke and mirrors Gillespie's exposing up yonder there, but in reality? Obama screwed us over--please don't anybody thank him for it.
The govt only paid about $44/share for GM stock. The $134/share number was just some dufus' prediction of a future stock price. So we only lost $11/share.
Look again.
$134 per share is the price the appointee in charge of TARP calculated based on how much it's cost us to date.
Don't forget to add in losses sustained over the past two years as well.
That's the appointee at the Treasury Department whose only job is watch-dogging TARP--his number is the best number there is.
aaaaaaaah. Yes, that's what I was looking for. Some hidden non-obvious tens of billions.
"GM sold about 478 million shares Wednesday at $33 each, a price higher than the company and its bankers thought was possible just days ago."
The only reason they didn't price it lower earlier was because IPOs are routinely underpriced in order to make a big pop and generate a lot of press and interest among private investors and money managers...
The repricing from just days ago was because the Obama Administration didn't want any political fall out.
If the shares popped 25% or more on the first day of trading, the Administration's critics would be screaming that the taxpayers had gotten ripped off--that the shares should have been priced higher.
It doesn't have anything to do with an increased sunshiny outlook--they repriced the shares higher for political reasons.
"Ford, the one U.S.-owned company that weathered the past few years without government help and hence is probably better run, is trading at around $16 a share."
Apples to oranges. Market capitalization is the better measuring stick.
"$134 was the magic number estimated by Neil Barofsky, the special inspector general for TARP, for taxpayers to recoup their/our money in a single bound. Barofsky gave the figure in a letter to Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa).
Subtract the $33 dollars a share we made today, add $45 billion in lost tax revenue going forward, and that's still the low ball estimate for the bill to the taxpayers.
I know it's hard to believe that nationalizing an automaker becasue of the UAW's unreasonable pension demands could end up racking up tremendous losses for the taxpayer?
But it's true!
My gut feeling was that the bailout was for the benefit of saving union pension fund, but does anyone have a perspective on the 'then' versus 'now' situation of the union pension funds?
Again, no one has ever paid $134/share for GM stock. The feds paid about $44/share.
Again, $134 is what the guy in charge of keeping track of TARP costs says GM has cost us to date...
I know you have internet--but why not read the letter yourself?!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3795.....-re-GM-IPO
Wow! This is great! It's like talking to the Bush loonies about the Schlesinger Report! Feels like old times.
The Guy In Charge Of TARP at Treasury say "133.78".
Calling him names won't change the fact. Putting your fingers in your ears won't change the fact either...
The fact is? Nationalizing auto manufacturers to bail out their pension funds? Costs the taxpayers a lot of money!
That shouldn't be so hard to understand.
So, are the pension funds recapitalized?
Before today? The ownership of GM consisted of the Obama Administration, the Canadian government and the UAW itself.
The UAW was given a huge chunk of the company for its pension fund.
How much you wanna bet those were the easiest negotiations the UAW has ever had?
Most of the 45 billion or so in tax holiday are seen as being required in order to give GM a leg up...
Remember, GM was in the trouble it was because of the pension and healthcare benefits of its retirees--that problem hasn't gone away.
For the next few years, that problem has been offset by all sort of goodies the various governments have thrown their way--but that problem's really been papered over...
Remember too, the reason GM had to sell SUVs--was because of the high margins. You can fund pension benefits for retired workers like the UAW carries and finance that on thin profit margin cars like compact cars.
You need to sell cars with tons of options--fewer cars with thicker profit margins, so even their product mix was heavily effected by the UAW's ridiculous pension liabilities.
That problem is still not solved--it's just papered over for the next 5 years or more.
In some ways, it's like we're looking at the birth of Freddie and Fannie again--there's an assumption that the government will step in again if the same thing happens again, and without major concessions by the UAW, we will bail them out again. It's just a matter of time.
Why would the UAW make major concessions if the White House and Congress will bail them out? It's about as bad a case of moral hazard as you can imagine--with the added incentive that because the UAW owns a huge chunk of the stock...
Who are they negotiating with when they negotiate with management?
I'm normally a fan of--and donor to--Reason, but this post should not have been written. The utter ignorance of how stocks work coupled with direct financial advice is something that opponent's of Reason's viewpoint can use against the magazine and against libertarians in general.
I think it might have been edited funny...
I've seen other comparisons, and where he wrote...
Actually, I just looked at what he wrote--and he edited it!
I was about to say what he just wrote..
(For the record, GM's historical high for stock before it went into bankruptcy was $93.63, in 2000. That came to a total market cap of $57 billion.)
That $134 per share price tag is built on getting our initial cost back--which is over $50 billion.
In round numbers, that means we need GM stock to go more than $30 a share higher than it was in 2000--when GM was selling giant SUVs hand over fist! ...before we make our money back.
And right now? It sold for $33 a share!
And Obama's walking around like he did a good job or something!
...and we're pointing the finger at Gillespie for mangling the edit of a post?! Obama's playin' this like he did a good job of it!
Jesus Christ, let's hope Obama doesn't try to do anything like this again. I can't pretend to be stupid enough to cheer on Obama for this--I don't have that in me.
If Obama pulled that crap as an investment manager?
He'd be thrown in jail.
You can't squander that much of your investors' money on your friends, and then turn around and blow smoke up your investors' rear ends about what a great investment you made.
Obama's like Bernie Madoff! The only difference is that Obama's doing it with taxpayer money!
Hey, remember the Skybird? The girlie version of the Firebird? Even as a ten year old girl I knew better than to want one of those.
http://www.firebirdtransampart.....kybird.htm
On another note, I just love this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8WbQ-3xFCw
Just for the record, my baby is a 1975 Pontiac Grand LeMans with an original Chevy 350 and an chip-matched Alpine Green paint job.
My vanity plates read, "RIP GM" and other serious steel enthusiasts always have a smile and a thumbs up for me.
I have every confidence that my car will outlive its builder. Retire THAT, bitches.
"The Internal Revenue Service has decided that the government's involvement with these companies, both its acquisitions plus its disposals of their stock, means they should be exempt" from the rule, said Robert Willens, a New York tax consultant who advises investment banks and hedge funds.
I realize I'm just an ignorant puny human, and therefor unacquainted with the ways of the lofty and noble public servant class, but I would think such government involvement would be more likely to eliminate eligibility for preferential tax treatment. Silly me.
'78 Mustang II. I'll have to scan old pictures. You will not believe how ugly that Mustang was until you actually see it.
The Mustang II was a better-looking version of the Pinto with a bigger engine.