Labor

Reason.tv: UPS vs. FEDEX—Ultimate Whiteboard Remix

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You may have heard the UPS is in quite the political fight with FEDEX. Though both are package-delivery companies, they're governed by totally different federal labor rules. As a result, UPS's workforce is much more heavily unionized than FEDEX's—and more than twice as expensive.

So now UPS is trying to get FEDEX reclassified under federal law as a way of screwing a competitor. That's horrendous, but it also makes a sick kind of business sense. And it also reveals the real villain: A government that is big enough to absolutely, positively guarantee it can screw any business. Overnight.

"UPS Vs. FEDEX" was produced by Meredith Bragg and Nick Gillespie (who also hosts). Approximately two minutes long.

This video is based on "Using Unions as Weapons," by Mercatus Center economist Veronique de Rugy, which appeared in the October 2009 print edition of Reason. Read that article here .

Go to Reason.tv for downloadable versions of this video.

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  1. Yet, ironically, I get far better service from UPS than FedX.

    1. Soooo….why haven’t you switched to UPS then…if in your opinion their higher prices offset Fedex’s poorer service? Usually when you pay less you receive something less. It’s only govt that promises you’ll pay less and receive more. Lol.

      1. Hmm… As a small business owner I use both depending on which my customers prefer. I have noticed neither poorer service from Fedex or receiving something less. I however did work for a mostly unionized company in California and quickly moved back to the south because of the amount of business the union lost for the company through strikes. This effected both my compensation and stability.

        1. Interesting you blame the union for “too many strikes.” Workers do not strike for frivolous reasons. What was the company doing or not doing that left the workers no choice but to suspend their incomes and risk their jobs?

          1. Joe hark is obviously a moron.

            Unions strike for more money whither or not the company can afford to pay them more or if their pay is already higher then workers in comperable industries. They also strike for more benefits, better hours, etc. In most cases, the union employees are less productive and have higher pay and benefits than most other workers.

            Get a clue you stupid fool

            1. It is not true that union workers are less productive. Studies have proven this. Studies have shown that many work places that have unions are actually more productive. It has more to do with management and how the work place is designed and the way workers are allowed to do their jobs and give feedback that is listened to.

              1. The question is whether they are overcompensated for their work, even if they are equally productive they are still paid much more, causing unionized companies to suffer.

              2. Capital chases more expensive labor as proportionally greater productive technology is required to sustain higher labor costs. Thus, productivity can be shown to increse as labor costs increase. The deception of the labor movement is in proposing that its efforts are altruistic where, in fact, like all contractual wage and benefit negotiations, they are meant to garner improvements for the few over the many. Labor relation laws serve a political constituency at the cost of decreased availability of jobs and lower wages for those wishing to compete with and within the union shops. They ultimately tend to destroy the very jobs they are instituted to protect— UAW, nuff said.

                I take no issue with the lawful assembly which unions constitutionally exercise but, with few exceptions and none which would apply to private enterprise, I advocate the repeal of all laws relating to the rights of unions in contractual representation. This would necessitate that a substantial and very willful majority be required to affect leverage against management. It would also prevent the eventual extinction of the companies to which these unions are so parasitically connected. Unfortunately, I’m convinced that Uncle Sugar will provide the regulatory rents which UPS demands.

              3. Reciting a fictional study does not make your accounts true. Please put up the references about these so-called studies. Was the study conducted and paid for by SEIU or the UAW? I can vividly recall the Auto plant workers getting their booze at noon during their lunch break and watch as they headed back into the plant entrance nor more than 10 years ago in Livonia, MI.

              4. But in the yiwu agent end we Online wholesale convinced.

            2. Yes, Joe Hark is a moron and Shirlene is obviously ignorant. Joe must not know that Unions artificially raise wages, which damage the company making it less competitive and damage the local communities by the inflation the higher wages cost, housing, services, and such. An excellent example would be Michigan. Where car companies were paying compensation 2 to 3 times they should have been. (any job you can learn in a week; the compensation is not worth $ 60(plus) an hour) . You would think that Shirlene might know that it does not take a Union to foster independent thinking or enlightened management. I fact studies show that Unions stifle independent thinking and innovation.

            3. Your crazy!! Educate yourself!

            4. The International arm of the Union never wants a strike, because they cannot collect union dues from its members if they are not working. They could care less about the benefit of the local union and individual worker. This is especially true of local unions with small workforces.

              1. Take a gander at the unfunded and underfunded pensions of union workers. The officer of SEIU and UAW have their pensions fully funded at times of 110%. While the regular pensioners have had their pensions raided to bribe Congressmen and women. Unions high wages lead to higher priced products and services and less overall employment.

              2. I believe you mean….couldn’t care less.

          2. Joe hark is obviously a moron.

            Unions strike for more money whither or not the company can afford to pay them more or if their pay is already higher then workers in comperable industries. They also strike for more benefits, better hours, etc. In most cases, the union employees are less productive and have higher pay and benefits than most other workers.

            Get a clue you stupid fool

          3. I vlive in Michigan, home of the Big 3 automakers. The UAW most certainly strikes for “frivolous” reasons. And we did have “too many strikes” and now GM and Crysler got bailed out AND went bankrupt. The UAW definitely had a big hand in it. I work ffor a Union company, and the mentality is that no matter what the company does for you it isn’t enough. I doubt most union workers think they are fairly compensated, largely because the unions tell them they aren’t. It keeps the Unions in business. Which means dues. If workers didn’t see a need for Unions they might leave them or fail to join them in the first place.

          4. Indeed, they do strike for frivolous reasons. The idea that they should recieve more total compensation for work that is paid less in competitve market places is strangling you golden goose. Remember the BiG 3. It wasn’t just malfeasance of management. Highly compensated workforce and too much unproductiveness lead to GM and Chrysler’s demise. The recession only hastened their fall.

          5. Unions are for scum, those that would starve to death if left to their own devices.

        2. What a facinating article. I’m looking for a marketing expert to help with a project, could you help?

      2. Pay attention to the facts, John. UPS has LOWER prices than FedEx. And makes nearly four times the profit too. Yet UPS is the heavily unionized company. Must blow your Ayn Randite mind to see that.

      3. I had an incredibly frustrating conversation with a union member over a few beers at a bar once. I won’t recite the entire conversation, but the context of it all can be summed up in the following.

        I asked this very, very wise and worldy gentlemen, “do you have any regard for the well being of your employer?” He dodged the question twice until I really pressed it. With beer dripping from his lips, he finally blurted “Ain’t my problem man, as long as I get mine!!!”

        Nuff said huh?

    2. Heat can’t distract from pure fabulosity? Love those shoes.When do they go on sale again? and please tell me they will be in size 11? The big foot girls also love choosing christian louboutin too! Because they are so fit you—-girls,they will be your best choice!

  2. A few years ago FedEx backed a similar law that would have reclassified UPS under the same federal labor rules as FedEx. I call double foul on UPS.

    1. Not they didn’t……prove it.
      For Fedex to have wanted UPS under the same classification, would have allowed for UPS to wait out the bargaining contract and then pave the way for them to have a new vote on unionization that required all participants from sea to shining sea to ratify. Unions can’t work over tens of thousand of employees. That need intimidation and misinformation to attack individuals. Thank God,for ‘right to work states’. A shop can ratify a tyrannical 50+1 vote and impose unionization on the minority in Mich. but cannot force people to join as admission to enter workplace.

  3. Ah, the old “Anti Dog Eat Dog” rule again!

    1. Amen. He’s shrugging . . .

      1. Meanwhile, Obama – functioning like a socialist holy trinity comprising looter-in-chief, Head Cannibal and Dictator of Sacrifice — is busy drafting up directive 10-289….

      2. Has everyone read Ayn Rands “Atlas Shrugged”? I thought I was the only one. *L* Last Spring when I read it I had trouble telling the difference between it and the news from the Obama Whitehouse. Its pretty scary.

        1. Dude, you’re on a libertarian website. While everyone here might not necessarily agree with or like the book (objectivisim is different than libertarianism), chances are they’ve read it.

  4. I worked for years in shipping/receiving at a large store and got great service from both companies but the FedEx drivers seemed happier.

    1. I do agree with you, FedEx guys always are on time and happy while UPS always in hurry and most of them SMELL LOL I HAVE UNIONS AND BIG GOV!!!

    2. I am sorry I meant I HATE UNIONS AND BIG GOV!!!

      1. The unions struggled to bring us labor laws which included child labor laws, safety in the work place, vacation, and much more. Be thankful.

        1. The only ‘struggling’ unions did in creating these laws was after the fact. Efficiencies created by capitalism had already increased safety in the workplace, increased vacation time, and minimized the use of children in the workforce well prior to any law being enacted. The 5 day work week mot of us enjoy is a creation of efficiencies in capitalism not unions.

          1. Agreed Rob. Furthemore, Federal and State labor laws have ample protection for the worker to negate any need for workers to seek union representation. Safety and fair treatment is NOT their driving force. Its money….its money, money, money.

            I am a partner in a construction company and have had more safety violations with union workers than with non-union workers. The only advantage to hiring union workers from a labor hall is that we can fire them on the spot with no questions asked. Bad part of that, is that we just pull another guy from the “bench”. Guys on the “bench” are there for a reason….either incompetence, unreliability or too many safety violations.

            We pay our non-union men just as well as the union men and get much better results. However, that really means nothing when there is a collective bargaining agreement in place.

        2. What if you need the income your child can bring into the household? Child labor laws aren’t about protecting children, but about restricting the workforce, which creates a shortage and drives up wages.
          What do you think happens when you pull a big chunk of employees out of the workforce? Isn’t that one of the arguments against illegal aliens holding jobs. Its said that they drive down the wages.

          1. So you’re for child labor? And then libertarians wonder why people don’t think we’re crazy.

            1. As a child, I was for child labor. Why would I be against it now? Laws designed to “protect” me had the unintended consequence of harming me by restricting my income.

              Want to know when I became a libertarian? When I got my first paycheck at the age of 13 and saw all the blood sucked off by political vampires. Blood I paid for but would never get back.

    3. Probably ’cause they’re getting paid more. And generally the customer response is a lot better, meaning less arguments. The system is there, and the workers are happy. The latest bit about the behind-the-scenes action (was it in Time?) was insightful.

  5. Yet, ironically, I get far better service from UPS than FedX.

    So I guess you would be pretty unhappy with both poorer service and higher prices from FedEx?

    FedEx may well move packages primarily by airplane but they deliver them by truck, just like UPS.

    1. Now if FedEx would actually deliver packages by precision air drops, they would get my business every time.

      1. tack your shipment like the missle strikes from IRAQ

        1. I’m picturing a link on their web page to something that looks like the missile’s or aircraft’s cameras as the payload nears it’s destination.

          I would pay for that!

  6. I used to be a seller in e-commerce, and in my time of dealing with both of them, I had much better experience with FedEx–especially when it came to damaged merchandise. UPS would flatly deny damaging any equipment (they once denied anything happened to a computer server I sold that was delivered with water pouring out of it and dead fish inside of it. I don’t even want to know how that can happen).

    However, when it comes to their drivers, I prefer UPS drivers to FedEx drivers.

    More dark meat.

    1. Similar to my experiences – UPS has better prices but occasionally I’d end up with packages that looked like they lost a bar fight.

      1. It is true I think UPS has better prices, but if you don’t want your stuff lost go FedEx I got my immigration papers lost by UPS and there I was almost elegal bcoz my papers never got to them 🙁

      2. I’ve been calling them “Union Package Smashers” for years…

        1. I’ve been calling them Useless Pieces of Shit for years…

          1. Aren’t you a piece of shit.

            1. LOL>>>>>>>>…….

    2. I’d never use FedEx. Higher prices and slower delivery. There’s a reason that UPS is trouncing them.

  7. How long before robots are delivering everything? It can’t be that much longer.

    1. Probably around the same time that the pool cleaning robots are sexy enough to sleep with housewives.

      1. thats not too far off, im already cheating on my wife with my robovac, and my answering machine

        1. The robovac I can understand; their delightfully pooched-out succulence is hard to resist. But the answering machine? I see you like to get funky, don’t you?

          I know what you mean though. I’ve got a coffeemaker with some truly sexy curves. I just haven’t had the courage to ask her out yet, and I don’t want to ruin our morning relationship.

  8. I know Nick Gillespie and he’s lefthanded. The person in this video is an impostor.

    1. Plus, no jacket.

      1. Plus insanely fast at drawing.

        1. Plus horrible at flailing his arms about to imitate the guy in the real commercial.

  9. Off topic but relevant to my interests:

    The Postal Service, the band, got in a tizzy with USPS because of their name. USPS says that they can use The Postal Service’s songs in ads; in return they will sell the band’s albums on its website. Everyone’s a winner I guess.

    NOW. UPS uses Postal Service songs in its ads, which is featured in this clip. Is this just a weird coincidence or a crazy conspiracy?

    And how did reason get the rights to the song? It’s edited/looped; does that mean you don’t have to pay for it?

    “Did you ever see that scene in Scanners where the dude’s head blows up?”

  10. What the hell is that non-black thing covering Gillespie’s torso?

  11. Apropos of UPS’s shady behavior:

    Second refrain from a common sign posted in restrooms of old buildings with shaky plumbing, “If it’s brown, flush it down.”

    1. (Note: Also seen at sites where conservation is important, such as park facilities)

  12. I may have it wrong, but I am under the impression that FedEx uses more “contractors” as part of their labor pool than UPS does. This way they can more easily beef up (with higher cost contractors) during high season (Xmas) and pare back down later. So the labor costs might not (on average) be quite as different. Of course, no Union is going to support the use of temp labor on a seasonal basis.

    1. I work for California Dept. of Transportation-Maintenance and we hire temps for snow removal every year though our perm employees are union.

      1. An old joke here in California: what’s orange and sleeps four? A CalTrans truck.

  13. Pardon me if the video sheds more light on this, as I am unable to view it right now, but as I read the article it sounds like UPS is really trying to eliminate a loophole that FedEx somehow falls through. Not so much like they are rent seeking as they are trying to undo the legal advantage that was granted to FedEx.

    1. To us Reasonoids, the loophole is should be the status quo. There should not be laws that treate these different similar industries differently.

      1. we’re also by default against a lot of pro-union laws

        and UPS is trying to add costs to its competitor, rather than just fighting for the same treatment (which as an earlier poster wrote without giving us a link, FedEx apparently tried to pre-empt this travesty and give UPS the same legal treatment as it has)

        1. In this case, the law is anti union. Pro freedom does not equal supporting laws that exist to curtail workers rights.

          And, anyway, if your competitor is rent seeking, rather than lobbying to end the unfair granted them by the gov’t, you would have them seek the same unfair advantage? Not very fair to any new players entering the industry. Not very fair to the smaller players who can’t afford to lobby.

          1. What’s your opinion on a worker’s right to not join an union?

            1. How is my opinion on that relevant?

            2. I wish I was non-union, I’d save about $500 a year in dues. And my coworkers wouldn’t feel like they could get away with “murder”. The old timers feel they’ve “put in their time”, and the younger set don’t think they should have to work, they goof around a lot. All thanks to our union contract.

          2. Well there should be neither pro- nor anti-union laws. Eliminating pro-union laws does not equal curtailing workers rights.

            1. Depends on who is interpreting what is pro union and what is anti union.

          3. “Pro freedom does not equal supporting laws that exist to curtail workers rights.” Workers should be able to strike and organize. Companies should be able to fire them!

    2. So, Nick is arguing that a law making it more difficult to unionize is a good thing? How does that argue against gov’t intervention in this affair?

  14. That was fucking awesome. Not just regular awesome, fucking awesome.

  15. I remember the last time there was a strike at UPS, about ten years ago. Our morning drop-off guy was in the union, the evening pick-up guy was not. For a couple weeks there, the evening guy filled in for the AM guy (who was busy striking) and made hella scratch on overtime. The union guy HATED him for that. He would actually bad mouth him to us…weird considering we were customers.

    BTW, the Teamsters say that “UPS” stands for “UnderPaid Slaves.” What a bunch of criers. Can you imagine how retarded e-commerce would have been with full-on Teamsters-monopoly trucking? I’m sure glad the Kennedy clan had that vendetta thing for Jimmy Hoffa.

  16. Let’s say you’re a politician running for president of the united states. Would it make a difference if every singleunion member voted for or against you? In the grand scheme of things, unions are non-factors.

    Who cares and why do politicians who don’t care about anything but the next election give them so much consideration?

    1. To take your questions in order:

      Yes.

      See question one.

      1. Reagan won 49 states in 1984. This was after he fired the Air Traffic Controllers. You don’t need unions to win an election.

        1. You’re right, Nick, he did. That’s a good point, by the way. They aren’t needed to win.

          For that matter they aren’t needed at all. Their sole purpose for existing appears to be to force non competitive workers down American industry’s throat at phenomenally high prices. What they do amounts to little more than seizing the means of production.

          If capitalism was an eagle, then unions would be a Bolshevik anchor chained around it’s neck.

          And that’s ultimately not good for anyone. It’s not uncommon for these geniuses who thought they had it made as union members to be left bawling after they’ve destroyed their entire industries or ran them out of the country.

          Competition breeds healthy and prosperous industries, workforces, countries, economies and societies, nothing else does. Not what sandbaggers and entitlement hunters want to hear, but the facts nonetheless.

          1. rabble rabble

          2. “Their sole purpose for existing appears to be to force non competitive workers down American industry’s throat at phenomenally high prices.” It appears that way because it is true.

    2. Its not because of the votes of their members that the unions matter in elections. You’re right, if all the union employees voted one way its only a drop in the bucket, but there is a multiplier effect in play here. The unions send their people out to work campaigns, phone banks, door to door, mailings, etc. Its as an unpaid get out the vote machine that the unions play a big part in elections. My union always trys to get me to participate in their efforts. THATS why unions matter in elections.

    3. millions of dollars raided from their pensions and collectively held funds. That means the world to Dems. The unions are the only centrists that dems have on their side. By centrists, I mean on every other issue other than union related measures and policies. The dems bribe them with their own money and money of other Americans. Promises of free commodities and govt impose price caps on products for them to have better strength in their dollar, not realizing the full negative consequences. It is South American Machismos in the US. Promises of rigthing the wrongs of the last dictator by becoming a dictator him/her self.

  17. The biggest joke is that UPS is not trying to make its product and service better but trying to srew its competition.

  18. The members themselves are pointless as nearly vote the other party but the money the bosses take in and spend on dems is what they want. They take money from all the union members and use it to help the party that only half or better vote for, that is the real crime with unions.

    ****
    William Walsh|11.10.09 @ 3:31PM|#
    Let’s say you’re a politician running for president of the united states. Would it make a difference if every singleunion member voted for or against you? In the grand scheme of things, unions are non-factors.

    Who cares and why do politicians who don’t care about anything but the next election give them so much consideration?

  19. My spouse worked at UPS for 4 years. The lot of their drivers are awful, awful people. The union environment has conditioned them to hate their jobs, which for someone who doesn’t even have to graduate from HS, is the highest paying job they’ll ever have. They start at $55K.

    1. Obvious why they’re trying to take FedEx down with them

  20. anyone with a little bit of knowledge would know that the railway act was put in place when all packages were sent by rail and a shutdown would hurt America. Fedex`is abusing this privilege and law. Once they entered package delivery they ended their position. Government isn’t the problem. It’s complete bull to use this for government bashing.

    1. Nope…it should end when Fedex [EXPRESS] operates like UPS [Airlines]or when UPS [Airlines] builds a network like Fedex [EXPRESS].

      1. What the hell are you trying to say?

    2. Check the records and see which airline owns the most amount of planes. US airways, before merger? nope.

  21. Well this is essentially the same BS that the IAM is pulling with Delta Air Lines. Under the current rules that were set by the National Railroad Act, the IAM knows that they will lose the representation if the entire Delta workforce votes as one. So now the IAM is trying to get the NMB to do is to change the rules so that only a portion of the workforce is allowed to vote at a time. Thus, increasing their chances in keeping/gaining new members from Delta’s “Below the Wing” workforce (CSA’s, Ramp and baggage handlers).

  22. Gotta love the union mentality: screw the company and the customers, as long as we get ours!

    Yeah, let’s unionize the entire overnight delivery business. Why? Because it worked so well in the auto business!! Maybe in 15 years we’ll get to bail out both companies so their union workers can avoid facing reality and keep the contributions flowing to liberal Democrats.

    Awesome.

    1. It did work well in the auto industry. Who was the biggest auto producer for many many years? Hey, it was unionized auto plants. It was the design of autos that did not keep up and the design of the work place… which neither was in the control of the unions.

      1. Your comments are slowly driving me mad, why must you peddle your shit, even here?

      2. Shirlene….are you serious? Really, are you serious? Design in automobiles is driven by the limitations created by the labor cost (labor cost is driven by the UAW). America could and would design and manufacture automobiles that would rival those from overseas, if it could only afford to produce them.

        Please stop Shirlene. You’re in the wrong place dear.

        Actually, keep it up…most of us seem to be getting a bang out of your cute little snippets.

      3. The American auto industry screwed it’s self. Piss poor management and unionized workers. Then competition appeared and the American auto industry is shit!

  23. Let’s see – how did that work out for the auto unions? The unions simply make for unsustainable business. A tip – use FEDEX when you really really need to get it there on time.

  24. Shouldn’t the author be blaming unions rather than “big government”? It wouldn’t be the government shutting down Fedex overnight, it would be the unions that show up as a result.

    It isn’t the government’s fault that unions in the US are a far cry from what they were originally intended to be. (Or is it?)

    1. There’s no problem with unions as long as it’s entirely the business of the unions and the companies the unions work for.

      What’s happening here is the unions are trying to use government to FORCE companies to do things against the companies’ consent, things that likely will hurt said companies.

      That’s why big government is the problem here. Unions use big government to force union agendas when the unions fail at using words, reason, and diplomacy.

  25. Fedex Ground are independent contractors – to a point. Fedex bought a ground trucking company already in existence and re-named it Fedex Ground. Also Fedex keeps all divisions separate – Fedex Express is independent of Fedex Ground is independent of Fedex Office. Hence if Fedex Office gives Fedex Ground a poorly wrapped package, and it breaks, or it is weighed improperly, that branch of Fedex Office has to deal with cost or damage. Fedex Express drivers are paid hourly as employees of Fedex. Yet, while treating drivers as indie contractors, Fedex Ground demands they follow many rules and adhere to a list of duties and behaviors that limits their Independence to a point where they can lose their routes quite easily. So that leaves you with UPS drivers who deliver ALL UPS deliveries, Ground, 3 day, 2 day Express. But Fedex Ground guys do not. So UPS probably has less people on the ground than Fedex because the brown trucks contain more variety of deliveries. I have noticed UPS guys more bland in their behavior for they are corporate boys, and Fedex Ground guys are more like cowboys. There is a lot more going on in this dynamic too, so I have found this video to be a rather simplistic analysis of the situation, while still remaining cute.

    1. I was one of those “indie contractors” you mentioned. (I’m a biker, but people call me “Cowboy.” Bet you can’t do that twice!).

      From my perspective your general analysis appears accurate.

      Concerning the video, it was simplistic, a positive quality. It covered in sufficient detail what it needed to, especially if the watcher hadn’t already been following this story.

      Video production intended for a wide audience most likely isn’t the easiest thing to do well. Certainly at least not in a way that can please everyone.

      This is just my opinion, not based on experience making video of which I have none. Merely on my observations gained viewing video and reading comments at various sites.

      From what I’ve seen there are two most common criticisms.

      The first is from those unfamiliar with the subject matter, they often feel the videos were too long, boring, or were not worth watching in their entire. Videos that run more than a few minutes without action seldom are reviewed well. Popular videos presenting a concept or idea usually have very short run times of a few minutes, and clearly make the point without unnecessary detail.

      The second type is from those who are very familiar with a subject, or have more than a passing interest in it. They usually criticize the presentation for being too simplistic, it left out details, didn’t cover the subject in enough depth, et cetera.

      Often both types of criticism are given by different viewers for the same video. So it seems probable that for those producing a video that finding the ideal balance to please both the subject knowledgeable and hold the attention of the ADD viewer must present a bit of a dilemma.

      Surely using private contractors helps FedEx keep costs down, we’ll always do better to far superior work for less money than union members will, at this or any other job. If union workers were capable of competing they wouldn’t need unions, the fact is they are substandard or are simply unwilling to push themselves to reach their full potential. We’ll never really know, because they take the easy path and set up a cozy little Soviet system right in the middle of our capitalist market place. Union lovers can make any excuse they like for it, and they’re all crap. If it was really “a fair wage” then get an even fairer wage doing what I’m doing and cost at less of an expense to the goose laying your golden egg. Why kill the goose so they get what amounts to entitlements for their lazy selfish rear ends.

      But those type of minute details were not important to, and in no way discredit what was presented in the video. If anything they simply serve to support it.

      1. I don’t believe what you are saying about union workers is true.

        1. Then you do not know reality.

  26. You folks certainly get a lot of packages.

  27. UPS packages always come smashed in some way, while FedEx packages usually are defect free. In addition UPS packages are delivered at the last possible minute or late, however FedEx packages are regularly delivered a day early. Live in CA and most order originate in NV.

    1. You are a chuckle. Whether it’s the upper variety shelf humor that comes from examining bizarre but real aspects of life, or that name, it’s hard to say. But it is funny.

  28. The real issue here is simply whether employees who do the same work should be covered by the same law. While both FedEx and UPS transport millions of packages daily by planes, it’s drivers who deliver the packages to offices and homes – not pilots. Out of the hundreds of companies in the delivery industry, FedEx Express is the only one whose drivers are covered by a different labor law. FedEx and UPS offer similar services and our employees perform the same work. It’s FedEx that is being treated differently under the current rules at the expense of everyone else in the industry.

    We offer more details on this issue at the UPS Pressroom RLA Facts page http://bit.ly/kv2UX.

    Debbie Curtis-Magley
    UPS Public Relations

    1. No offence, madame, but the real issue here is one never betters their own situation by pulling others down. All that is accomplished in doing that is more are down, and chances of ever pulling one self up are lessened.

      We desperately need to free up our market places, not further stangle them.

      An earlier commenter above stated that FedEx had backed legislation that would have placed UPS on equal footing. I need to verify this. If it’s true that FedEx favored pulling UPS up, then what’s being attempted now is so despicable I can’t even put it into words.

      That aside, thank you for taking the time to share your side of the story here.

    2. Ms. Curtis-Magley

      I am not naive to the labor law situation. However, I am failing to see the relevance to this. In the end, I have selected FedEx as our preferred document and package courier for a couple of very simple reasons. The first is most important to me – better service. Simply stated, I have experienced that packages are delivered on-time and accurately at a higher rate than with UPS. The second reason is quite simple too. I prefer FedEx because they have managed to develop a superb product and service without the infiltration of a union.

      In the end, I much prefer the business model of FedEx, which by current labor laws, legislation and rules of commerce falls well within our legal system. Does it not?

      Why must we look at breaking up a highly effective business model? Is there any legitimate reason for breaking down this model? Do we need to fix things that aren’t really broken?

      Just like a sports car, when a business model works, you strive to maintain it properly and possibly tweak here and there for sublte improvements.

    3. All good rasons for not having government labor laws.

  29. Debbie,
    You have it right. Most of the people here are quite moronic and have no basic understanding of history and law. It’s a prime example
    of the idiocy of America

    1. Brilliant.

      1. You suck.

    2. Ready to give a history lesson, Mr. Fong? Or just make insults?

      History is my favorite subject, my notepad and pencil are ready.

    3. I can tell this comment was well researched and is supported by a considerable volume of evidence!

      Shit, I forgot to use my sarcasm font.

  30. On a different note.

    I like the style of this video.

    Can we see more such ‘whiteboard videos’ on current issues?

  31. Here’s the thing. FedEx Express operates as an airline which is different from FedEx Ground and UPS which primarily operate as trucking companies, and they are governed differently. There’s really nothing to argue there.

    The real debate is why UPS who was so bent on being governed the same as FedEx Express is now claiming it’s unfair after they didn’t meet the criteria. If massive strikes happen again, the businesses and individuals of this country need their packages and they will still be able to get them with FedEx

    1. Your closing point appears valid. Give unions the power to shut down both services and they’d find that kind of leverage almost too tempting to resist. If it were to happen we’d be left with the USPS… just the thought makes me cringe.

  32. Nick Gillespie is so talented that he can conduct an orchestra and shoot a whiteboard video at the same time. Impressive.

  33. nick’s hair by fisher-price

  34. I worked for FDX in a sales role for 7 years. I have moved on but both companies moved millions of packages a day so everyone is going have some great experiences and bad experiences with both organizations. FDX basically has no interest in changing their management structure to be union because its a pain for them more than anything. They would be fine in a union environment just like UPS is successful. Another mistake in this article is that UPS is twice as expensive as FDX, that is 100% WRONG. FDX is actually 5% more expensive on some products and 5% less expensive on other services so they are basically the same. Also any strikes that happen to UPS will not allow FDX to still deliver, as they can’t double their capacity overnight.

    1. Pardon? Where did Gillespie state it was twice as expensive to use?

      No business is just fine in an union environment, sir. Don’t confuse tenaciously hanging on by a nail for just fine.

      You may want to look into this subject more closely, our major US industries haven’t gone overseas out of greed. Those that vanished had no choice. The combination of the union stranglehold and intense government regulation either killed them or left them no option except relocate.

      You really do not know what FedEx’s motives are, your claim is as preposterous as your confidence in unions.

      Just curious, have you been, or are you now, a member or a representative of an union? If so you really should let that be known.

      1. If you think that UPS is doing no better than “tenaciously hanging on” you’re an idiot. They are a huge company that is thriving.

  35. Nice video. I would like to share it with some people who would be offended by obscenity (bitch-slap) so I regret I cannot. Can I suggest you clean it up next time?

  36. I’ve worked for FedEx as a courier for 15 years. The UPS guys are always over worked and miserable. I chat with my customers and don’t get worked like a slave, I enjoy coming in to work every day. The unions trade slightly higher starting wages for much crappier working conditions. Knew the shop steward for the UPS center as we used to chat. The horror stories he told me make me shudder at the thought of the Teamsters getting in with us.

  37. WOW!

    Absolutely genius. Man I love you guys… this was just great!

    So so so so so so great. So high quality, so funny, and SO SO SO TRUE!

    HA! I need to watch this again!

  38. I worked for UPS for a few years, as delivery driver then customer service. I can tell you that most UPS drivers work like a dog all day long trying to meet their quotas, which are sometimes just insane. I would work sweating my guts out at full speed through all my breaks in an effort to try to make it. But I was reminded how much more money there was in UPS than FedEx, but man, those FedEx guys always looked so cool, calm, and collected!

    How unfortunate it is that companies have to waste so much effort lobbying the government for fair treatment.

  39. Nice spoof, but where is the ugly mullet?

  40. It’s surprising that the labor costs are so different. You’d never know it from using their services. UPS is faster and more reliable now than at any other time I can recall, and definitely price-competitive with FedEx.

    I realize the point this video is trying to make, but the presenter fell short of mentioning that the reason “unions are a relic of the industrial revolution” is because the federal government illegally (unconstitutionally) took over the unions’ job of restricting work hours, enforcing work place hazard rules, and mandating minimum wages.

    I don’t buy this one-eye-covered minarchism. Either you want the fe’ral gov’t interfering, or you want them completely out of the picture–and you can’t say you’re for smaller government if you want federal labor restrictions. If the government wasn’t interfering with labor unions, they could form or disband without regard for irrelevant restrictions such as whether or not a company owns vehicles with wings.

    1. You make an interesting point but the fact is government interference is a real risk to organization of labor. From rotten borough sheriffs and anti-strike injunctions to the arbitrary and confuddled application of the NLRA.

  41. Jimmy Hoffa would be proud of his boys…

  42. Unions have destroyed this nations industries. Employers can’t even choose who they want to employ once these mobsters have moved in. I’m proud that I’m hated for being hired as an independent contractor in several of these enterprises. They don’t like outsiders on their turf that doesn’t belong to them, and they’d be even more angry if they knew in most cases I was being paid far more than their highest paying positions.

    Gillespie is correct about individuals and compensation. When I’m called in there is a need that can’t be met by union employees. Their system doesn’t foster development of those kind of skills.

    If people were left to negotiate their own contracts, as I do, we’d discover a worker capable of putting a nut on a bolt all day really isn’t that valuable, and I’d be able to negotiate an even better deal.

    Unions stand in my way, they make my American dream more difficult, and I despise them.

    The government has no business climbing in bed with these creeps. Nothing good ever happens when criminal minds combine.

    1. So you have a personal, financial interest in seeing unions fail. It’s good you put that out there, as it explains your bias may not be based on the good of society.

      1. You seem to tie good of society and communism, explain.

      2. Workers should be allowed to unionize as long as the companies can kill them.

  43. Fedex workers want the union, Fedex managemnt does not.
    The Fedex pilots are unionized (ALPA), and have been for years.
    Fedex drivers make about half the pay ($15/hour)and benefits that the USPS ($26/hour) and UPS ($29/hour) workers make. And fedex ground is “independent contractors”, who are required to purchase their own trucks, tires, gas. In addition to this they receive no vacations, health insurance, workmans compensation, and have to pay the company’s portion of employment taxes, in addition to their own.
    The unionized pilots of Fedex and UPS make basically the same (around $226/hour).
    If the law changes look for Fedex to unionize.
    The only one getting screwed here is the fedex workers (except for the pilots). Fedex is good at blaming others, especially UPS and the Teamsters for their problems.
    Maybe if fedex treated their people with respect they would not have to worry about the unionization of their employees.

    1. a little off topic, but… Tru, I have to correct you on something. While Fedex and UPS pay their pilots about the same, to say that they make around $226 an hour is a gross misrepresentation. While UPS/FedEx pilots can top out at $226 or more, it takes them 10 years or more to do so, and they start at much lower wages (Year 1 pay UPS: $36/Hour. Year 1 pay FedEx: $59/hour). This is per flight hour, btw, which is currently about 50 hours per month!

    2. wrong…………pay is merit based and ranges from $15 to top out at $22. Fedex express deliversabout 2/3 of what a typical UPS driver delivers. Fedex Express drivers deliver overnight, 2day, and 3 day packages and cover larger areas. Fedex Ground and Fedex Home deliver slow boat shipments. For wages to increase to UPS amounts, Fedex would have to tear down their whole system and recreate it in the image of UPS to up the productivity of each driver. The drivers are not slow or don’t have as mcuh work, as they cover large areas and require more driving. Thousands of employees would lose their jobs. Who is most expendable? A contractor which requires Fedex to expound capital or hourly employees that UPS is so desperately trying to attract with their fictional benefits. Even the largest unions in the auto world went to a more competitive tiered system of pay.

  44. The way I see it simply and turthfully: FedEx want to operate under a rule that gives them an unfair advantage in the marketplace. They can and do treat their workers as they please while UPS are bound by contracts requiring them to pay their drivers $30 per hour to FedEx’s $25. UPS drivers top out in 3 years whereas FedEx drivers take 12 years. UPS guys pay nothing for healthcare while FedEx average $270 per month, UPS drivers get more vacation than FedEx, UPS employees are not punished for using sick days while Fedex employees are dinged on their reviews for attendance even if they use 1 sick day. Local FedEx management have lots of disgression provided to them and can enact and implement further inflexible policies like vacation bidding anomalies, employee bullying etc that are contrary to the overall FedEx policy manual while UPS nationwide operates under the same rules which are policed by the Union. FedEx executives get paid much more than UPS executives.

    The brown bailout campaign by UPS is unethical considering that FedEx has received more Federal Governement funding from the time of the post 911 Airline assistance program to the present than UPS ever has. UPS has made more profit that FedEx ever has and UPS is a huge “bricks and mortar” company that owns most of the property from which it operates, has huge cash reserves whereas FedEx is a more rent and lease outfit.

    1. Why screw FedEx to help out UPS? How about de-screwing UPS (and every other business) instead? The only ethical and economically correct approach (notice those seem to go hand in hand) is to get rid of both the subsidies and the restrictions and let both companies – and other competitors – rise and fall on the merit of their service.

    2. Amen Jim! As a FedEx courier the amount of questionable management I see on a daily basis is astounding. Many of the common practices and policies in place at FedEx border on being ILLEGAL and yet are blanketed with a polite ‘Company Need’. Being forced to use sick days and vacation leave when you are injured on the job through no fault of your own? Then having that lost time used against you on your review? UPS drivers earn every penny and FedEx drivers deserve just as much along with expecting ethical working standards. The days of SFA reviews are numbered(I hope) and drivers can finally have a real voice. FedEx drivers are NOT ‘happier’ just more numb. Fair and just compensation now! Better get some sleep before another 13 hr working day with that 1/2 hour lunch they generously bestow upon us..

      Oh! And to the one that referred to UPS drivers as being crying babies, get behind the wheel and TRY to do half of their route without curling up into a fetal position wetting yourself.

      LIKE YOUR WEEKEND? THANK A UNION.

      1. You won’t have a job when the unions come. Do your homework and add up the numbers. You don’t do deliver as many packages as a UPS guy. Fedex Ground and Fedex Express will have to be contracted and brought together, meaning less j-o-b-s………a three letter word, professor Joe Biden.

      2. Unions are for people that have no ability.

      3. LIKE PAYING $24,000 for a car that should not cost more than $18,000? Than a Union. And yes even the non-union autos are over inflated because they know they can inflate the price based on their competition (GM).

        Like having a public education system that costs more than the military and yet can seem to improve its students despite regular injections of federal cash? Thank a union.

        Like paying $74 to ship a 5lb package from NY to CA by next day air? Thank the combination of UPS Union costs and an inefficient USPS. Despite having since the beginning of American civilization to establish a robust mail delivery infrastructure, the USPS cannot manage to deliver the aforementioned package for less than $37 dollars and even still, it wont arrive when you want it to arrive. FedEx has a tiny fraction of the USPS’s infrastructure, funding and manpower and yet they can get the package there the next MORNING. UPS is bigger than FedEx, and yet their price is still about the same. As FedEx expands, they will be able to drive down their own prices through their economies of scale. If UPS expands (a miracle in and of itself) they will not be able to take advantage of that change in scale because they dont have the flexibility to manage their labor costs as they inevitably grow with their organization. Without the UNION breathing down their neck, FedEx can adjust their compensation and benefit structure to accommodate the economic needs of the company. OHH what a bunch of cold bastards! They are going to hire people at lower prices and give less benefits so that they can afford to hire more people, buy more planes and trucks and lower their prices OH NO THE HUMANITY!!!

  45. That was hilarious. There is nobody on TV more annoying than the UPS white board guy. Nick is a huge step up!

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  49. Presentation has it all wrong. Managements wants all employees to be interchangeable with no difference in craft and no difference in pay. When there little or no difference you end up doing the jobs of others who are out of work.

  50. That is great. I will be emailing that to everyone.

    But the hand movements were a bit overdone. I’m going to need some dramamine.

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  52. Why not everyone under the same govt. rules.

  53. UPS has every right to expect a level playing field. They didn’t make the rules. They just want them enforced equally.

  54. A local furniture chain based within miles of where I live pays all of its delivery workers on 100% commission (in fact, nearly everyone who works for this company is on 100% commission). The founder of the firm did this to protect product from coming back damaged due to non-caring delivery folks and to pry an additional 15% – 20% discount out of his suppliers for not sending them any returns. Last I heard (3 or 4 years ago) his top drivers were making nearly $90,000.00 year.

    Contrast to a recent package from a vendor that UPS “lost” – and I quote from the exception report:

    “MERCHANDISE IS MISSING. UPS WILL NOTIFY THE SENDER WITH ADDITIONAL DETAILS. / ALL MERCHANDISE MISSING, EMPTY CARTON WAS DISCARDED. UPS WILL NOTIFY THE SENDER WITH DETAILS OF THE DAMAGE.”

    Bet that does not happen – ever – for the furniture company…

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  57. Level the plying field

    1. Wouldn’t want the dogs eating the other dogs, now would we?

  58. Who is John Galt?

  59. UPS is playing thug tactics in hopes of forcing FedEx Express down the slippery slope of unionising.. Here’s a hint, Express is an air carrier with trucks. UPS is a trucking company with airplanes. Different set of rules, altogether (as defined by our oh-so-benevolent Gov’t). Why isn’t UPS trying to get the rules changed for Southwest Airlines too? Im sure there are packages shipped in the bellies of their planes. Why not push to change the rules for me and my family? I haul boxes in my car (to FedEx Office for shipment) Oh, BTW, the pilots of Express ARE unionised in case there are those out there who think FedEx is completely union-free. Worst mistake they made IMO, but there you have it.

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  61. Workers do not strike for frivolous reasons. In most cases, the union employees are less productive and have higher pay and benefits than most other workers

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  62. It looks to me as if Fedex management is worried their employees may actually want to form a union. If Fed ex was such a great company and treated its employees with respect ,they shouldnt worry about the simple change in status.? I think they are worried because I work for Fed ex and we are fed up with a management that treats us like crap and we dont have a voice.

  63. This is a good example of what happens when good companies become big corporates. Instead of resorting to providing value to each other they resort to fighting legal battles with no results. The rationale being the heavy profits they earn has to be spend somewhere after all…

  64. Love the video but if it didn’t have that language at the beginning I could pass it to more of my friends.

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  66. the pilots of Express ARE unionised in case there are those out there who think FedEx is completely union-free. Worst mistake they made IMO, but there you have it

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  67. Does anyone remember the thousands of incredibly brave people who went to prison and got beaten and shot at and killed — Mother Jones and all of her brothers and sisters who gave their lives to give us the gift of weekends and a middle class?

    Now a whole lot of unenlightened and ungrateful folks find it fashionable to spout off that we don’t neeeeeed awful old unions anymore…

    Well, talk is cheap. Especilly among fools. I’m sure these same folks WILL be singing a different tune about unions when they’re gone — if Fed Ex folks think their already puny wages aren’t as ‘generous’ as they are because UPS union workers have fought to get and keep a decent deal — then the Fed Ex team is just plain naive — just the way management likes ’em! After today’s unions die because today’s workers can’t seem to remember just how awful the BAD old days before unions really were — another round of brave souls will step up and get beaten and shot at and killed and hauled off to prison to restore what this generation is letting slip away — the absolutely, positively crucial check-and-balance in the relationship between workers and masters that ONLY unions can deliver.

    1. Obviously not enough union organizers were killed.

  68. Keep drinking the management kool-aid and everyday will be take your children to work day, just like it used to be when most American kids went to factories instead of school. Think about it.

  69. This is the reason the MSM is on a slippery slope. I’ve found this topic, on this blog, very informative. And Monday I’m starting a new company, “the American Postal Service”. We expect to do quite well, with Gov. subsidies, or course.

  70. Please got to NBER and read there research piece on unionism in the USA. Many of the business closures and instability in American business simply is not EXPLAINABLE by unionism.

    What the NBER said has risen in importance and its contribution to job instability and cost was the growing ratio of jobs that REQUIRE CERTIFICATION, and STATE LICENSING.

    Nearly 50% o the workforce now hold jobs that require licensing and state oversight.

    The NBER states that this phenomenon has a greater impact on labor cost than unions do.

    Another libertarian/right wing conservative canard harpooned like an annoying dumb kids circus balloon.

    You idiots need to stop hyperventilating and start reading a bit more.

    The theory alone on unions states that the effects on productivity are INDETERMINATE.

    1. It must be nice to live in your fantasyland. Do me a favor, bring me back a few nymphs will ya?

      With Paul Krugman a member, suffice it to say most of the studies there have little basis in fact. Impressive rant. Sadly, it’s wrong. Nice try though…

  71. A few years ago FedEx backed a similar law that would have reclassified UPS under the same federal labor rules as FedEx. I call double foul on UPS.

  72. A few years ago FedEx backed a similar law that would have reclassified UPS under the same federal labor rules as FedEx. I call double foul on UPS.

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  73. BTW, Nick G oughta go back on _Red Eye_, he always kills when he’s on that show..

  74. This video is based on “Using Unions as Weapons,” by Veronique de Rugy, which appeared in the October 2009 print edition of Reason. i think we can look it!
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  75. A few years ago FedEx backed a similar law that would have reclassified UPS under the same federal labor rules as FedEx. BTW, Nick G oughta go back on _Red Eye_
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  76. Hi,
    Can you explain me about UPS/ FEDEX. I don’t know about and how it’s work?
    Thanks

  77. Hello,
    What is UPS/ FEDEX? and how it’s work?
    Thanks

  78. FedEx might not be under the same federal law as UPS, but I’m satisfied with its service. UPS is only after bringing a competitor down.

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  81. I just think the whole thing is wrong if fedex has been under the railroad act for the past 30 something years then let them stay there with the economy the way it is we need all the jobs we can get.

  82. FedEx uses outside contractors who own routes within a given territory to make ground deliveries. However, they do employ the drivers who pick up and deliver overnight/expedited packages. That is why they have lower costs.

    1. You mean except for when they don’t have lower costs, right?

      UPS is absolutely price competitive with FedEx. Sometimes a bit more, but sometimes a bit less. In the end, costs are roughly equal.

  83. UPS has every right to expect a level playing field. They didn’t make the rules. They just want them enforced equally.
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  84. That was hilarious. There is nobody on TV more annoying than the UPS white board guy. Nick is a huge step up!
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  88. I just think the whole thing is wrong if fedex has been under the railroad act for the past 30 something years then let them stay there with the economy the way it is we need all the jobs we can get.
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    A few years ago FedEx backed a similar law that would have reclassified UPS under the same federal labor rules as FedEx. I call double foul on UPS.

  89. That was hilarious. There is nobody on TV more annoying than the UPS white board guy. Nick is a huge step up 32 lcd tv UPS is absolutely price competitive with FedEx. Sometimes a bit more, but sometimes a bit less. In the end, costs are roughly equal.

  90. How does each piece of legislation restrain the unions? With that question answered its easier to judge which type of service the government is restraining more. It should be fine for people to unionize, as long as the government does not interfere and force business to accept a union’s demands.

  91. My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I’m sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane.

  92. You mean except for when they don’t have lower costs, right?

  93. you know what flexability means? it means a company has the flexability to take away hours or money from the very people who make them the money …the higher ups get rich off the workers backs plain and simple ..the money is not distrubuted fairly when you have people getting bonuses more than what a worker gets in a year… its not right and maybe just maybe history can repeat itself with a labor movement …GET A FAIR DEAL!!!! GET A CONTRACT!!!!! ORGANIZE!!!!!

    1. James, have a read below and please respond if you see this.

      Tell me, what do you do if you are employed by a privately owned company in the following scenario. It is still owned by the original company founder, who cares deeply for his employees and pays them very handsomely, full benefits, excellent retirement plan, etc, etc, the whole nine yards. Lets say that you’re paid $60k base per year with full health, dental, 401k, 3 weeks vacation, possible profit sharing at the end of the year. You’re job description is putting together a machine part and really doesn’t change from one day to the next….pretty mindless work that requires no creative or productive thinking. You clock in, do your job faithfully, and never really give your employer a reason to be concerned about your performance.

      Now, here is the question. Knowing that your employer started the company with his own finances, struggled for many years to make the business successful but always took care of his employees. It was his money, his risk, his fortitude that made the business successful. But at the end of the year, you find that he writes himself a check for $5,000,000. Its the first time he has treated himself to such a dividend. All that profit was created on the backs of you and dozens or hundreds others like you….but also created on the back of him, that owner that pays your reasonably good salary.

      What do you do? Do you organize? Is your employer screwing you? Do you have a fair deal? Do you need a collective bargaining agreement to get your fingers in that $5,000,000 pie? Or does he deserve to treat himself to that $5,000,000? Is it it worth organizing at a risk that this could diminish future profits?

      Look forward to your response. Keep in mind that companies like this exist without unions.

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  118. But the prices are similar, so it is not affected FEDEX yet.

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  145. The provision in the FAA Reauthorization Act? gives ZERO federal taxpayer dollars to Brown or anything similar. All it does is make BOTH ups and fedex governed by the same laws, as they should be.? They’re both in the PACKAGE DELIVERY business! There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be governed by the same laws, esp. when it comes to unions. Giving one company a special legal advantage is favoritism, plain and simple. It’s anti-free market. All competitors should have the same rules.
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  153. And don’t most libertarians have a great deal of disdain, or at least skepticism, for unions?? Why would Nick Gillespie care so much if Brown wants to make it harder for their employees to unionize? Why would most Reason tv viewers and reason? subscribers care either??
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  171. The provision in the FAA Re authorization Act? gives ZERO federal taxpayer dollars to Brown or anything similar. All it does is make BOTH ups and fedex governed by the same laws, as they should be.? They’re both in the PACKAGE DELIVERY business! There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be governed by the same laws, esp. when it comes to unions. Giving one company a special legal advantage is favoritism, plain and simple. It’s anti-free market. All competitors should have the same rules.

  172. The provision in the FAA Reauthorization Act? gives ZERO federal taxpayer dollars to Brown or anything similar. All it does is make BOTH ups and fedex governed by the same laws, as they should be.? They’re both in the PACKAGE DELIVERY business! There’s no reason why they shouldn’t be governed by the same laws, esp. when it comes to unions. Giving one company a special legal advantage is favoritism, plain and simple. It’s anti-free market. All competitors should have the same rules.
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  179. When I worked at UPS when this was going on they MADE us write a letter to our senator asking them to make Fed Ex regulated. It was ridiculous.

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  180. When I worked at UPS they made us write a letter to our senators begging them to regulate fed ex. It was ridiculous.

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  189. So have the numbers changed since 2009?, I would think this scenario has changed a lot after the recession.

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