Palin +1

Sarah Palin is one of only three governors to sign a proclamation for "Jury Rights Day," an event sponsored by the pro-nullification Fully Informed Jury Association.

Via Volokh.

Comments

[Elemenope]

Good.

I wonder what McCain's views on jury nullification are. I imagine they wouldn't be the same as hers.

[Episiarch]

Well, that's impressive. What's also impressive is the fact that the last 8 posts in row were about Palin, and if you stretch it a little (meaning she's mentioned), it's the last 11.

[Naga Sadow]

Fools! Do you want to set all the potheads free? They will eat all our junkfood with their insatiable "munchies". A mass die off will be inevitable! I want my grandchildren to enjoy Doritos and twinkies too!

[Mo]

Wow. I like that. The funny thing is, everything I like about her, her core supporters wouldn't like and vice versa.

[.]

As long as we only appoint strict constructionist jurors who won't legislate from the jury box...

[R C Dean]

Yeah, she's in favor of jury nullification (as were the Founders), but her daughter got pregnant! And she asked about banning books, but didn't actually try to ban any! And said she might fire some people, but didn't! Except when she fired the good old boy who wouldn't get rid of a bad cop!

Or something.

[texas_libertarian]

Palin is the only Republican Governor to sign the proclamation for Jury Rights Day. It least she's willing to take steps to reform the criminal justice system, however modestly, unlike most other Republicans who just want to fuck it up more.

[Elemenope]

RCD --

Yes, she has done one thing I like. She's also a moral scold who put her family in the line of fire for personal ambition.

I can like her for the first and think she's scum for the second. These are not contradictory impulses.

[Mo]

RC,
You show that straw man who's boss.

[Eric Dondero]

That's hardcore. Most people are not aware that the FIJA movement was founded by longtime Libertarian Party leader Larry Dodge of Montana and Constitution Party leader Red Beckman (now deceased.)

Bet we'll see the Daily Kossers pick up on this in a day or two, and use it as further proof that Palin is a "Radical extremist gun totin' Libertarian with ties to Constitutionalists and Seccessionists."

Mark this down. If you see this meme surface on the Left, don't forget I predicted it first right here at Reason Blog.

[stuartl]

...who put her family in the line of fire for personal ambition.

And how is this different from any other politician?

[Naga Sadow channeling Smokey]

Remember it ,Write it down, take a picture, I don't give a fuck.

[Episiarch]

DONDERROOOOOOOO

Eric, can you make apost without self-aggrandizement?

[Mo]

DONDEROOOOOOOOO!!!!

I'm sure they'll do that because they'll want to paint Christine Gregoire and John Lynch (not the safety*) as loonies as well.

* Speaking of which, is it just me or did the Republicans drop the ball on their convention schedule? I mean, everyone knows all Real Americans (TM), will be watching the kickoff to the NFL season today. Why did they pick the only Thursday before Nov with a football game for his big convention speech?

[Marcvs]

Don't worry, Dondero, we'll make sure that you get all of the credit you deserve. Because that's what this is all about, right? You?

[Ska]

Because Republicans aren't Giants' fans?

[Elemenope]

stuartl --

Well, first, *she* (or more accurately, "the campaign") fucking bragged about the teenage pregnant daughter, which makes it into crass using, rather than "unfortunate fact to be dug up by media". If it were the latter, then at least she could take some moral high ground.

And considering that (she said) she wasn't interested at all in VPOTUS until, suddenly she was the candidate, that doesn't leave much time for the all-important "let's sit down as a family and decide if this is or isn't the stupidest idea ever" conversation. Due to the speed at which this happened, I question the extent to which she really thought through what this would do to her family.

[Elemenope]

Why did they pick the only Thursday before Nov with a football game for his big convention speech?

Because they are better off if no voters hear it...?

...who put her family in the line of fire for personal ambition.

For a little while, but don't you think those five kids are going to get into whatever school they want and have amazing references when looking for a job in the future?

Plus if her ticket wins she gets four years to hang out with them as much as she wants, way more familiy time that she probably has as Gov. of Alaska.

[shecky]

A symbolic act in favor of jury nullification... something Americans can all get behind.

[Raphael]

That speech must have been awesome, because the democrats are scrambling their pants like crazy this morning with all kinds of attempts to spin it negative. The repubs sure didn't react that strongly to whoever the democrat VP candidate is...you know...what's his name. I can't recall.

[Episiarch]

I question the extent to which she really thought through what this would do to her family

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you actually fucking serious? These are politicians. Do you think Obama wonders what his career will do to his daughters? I wasn't going to call you out on this, dude, but I can't let this go. If you actually hold Palin to this standard and let all the other assholes pass, you have a negative hard-on for Palin that just won't quit.

[stuartl]

That speech must have been awesome, because the democrats are scrambling their pants like crazy this morning with all kinds of attempts to spin it negative.

The funniest one was the complaint that it was written by a bunch of expert speech writers. I'm sure all of the other candidates write their own speeches. Especially Biden. 🙂

[Mo]

Because Republicans aren't Giants' fans?

Lots of Virginians are Redskins fans. Do Republicans only watch MNF when their team is on? Down that path madness lies.

[Elemenope]

Actually Epi, I thought James Fallows summed up the difference well:

"Barack Obama has used his family as a prop from time to time -- most recently, bringing the charming girls onto the stage at the end of his convention speech. That's life in politics; everybody does it to some degree. Very few politicians do it as all-out as Sarah Palin just did, from citing the disabilities of her youngest child as part of her resume to including the shotgun groom of her elder daughter. I can't recall any spectacle comparable to Baby Trig being passed from Cindy McCain, to Trig's 7-year-old sister, to Palin herself when she ended the speech. Her husband looks charming, I have to say. From this point on it will be hard for her to declare anything about her personal or family life out-of-bounds."

There's a huge difference between an occasional photo-op and the way Palin is using her family to sell her pro-life bona fides. As Fallows said, everyone does it to *some* degree. To me, what degree is the salient question.

[The Angry Optimist]

The NFL did agree to move kickoff time up to make sure the game is over by McCain's speech.

But as an avid Redskins fan, I will be watching the team spank the Super Bowl Champions.

[Elemenope]

The funniest one was the complaint that it was written by a bunch of expert speech writers. I'm sure all of the other candidates write their own speeches.

Actually, Obama *does* write most of his own speeches. So, yeah. There is a difference. Palin is not "Obama in a pantsuit (or miniskirt)".

[shecky]

Are you actually fucking serious? These are politicians. Do you think Obama wonders what his career will do to his daughters?

This is exactly why all this rending of clothing about the liberals beating up on poor Palin is silly. She and McCain are primarily responsible for the shit flinging by entering politics and pretending that these things should somehow be off limits. And not knowing or not caring what the reaction would be.

I don't think the Republicans are that dumb. I think they knew exactly what would happen when you type "Gov Palin" into google, hoped it would cause a shitstorm, and then act victimized when the stories came out.

[You have lost your mind]

Obama writes his speeches???

Oh good god. Even Weigel hasn't tried to shove that one down our throats.

[Episiarch]

To me, what degree is the salient question

Give me a break. You've convinced me that you have a particular issue with Palin for some reason; now I just have to figure out why.

[Caribou Carl]

Hitler never used his family as political props.

Ergo: Palin is worse than Hitler.

Also: the Redskins suck.

[shecky]

Epi,

That would seem a pretty salient issue to many folks here: To what extent does a politician exploit one's family before it puts voters off.

[Leave Bristol alone!]

Elemenope:

You're way off base. This thread is about three things:

1) Jury nullification

2) Scoring points off Dondero by putting the maximum number of "o's" after his name

3) Football.

[robc]

Why did they pick the only Thursday before Nov with a football game for his big convention speech?

There is a football game every thursday from last week thru early december.

I might watch the NFL game tonight, if there arent any decent college games on (Actually, I will be at AAA baseball playoffs tonight).

[WLC]

If McCain keels over before the election, does Palin automatically before the ticket topper, or would the GOP just pick another Prez candidate?

[Episiarch]

That would seem a pretty salient issue to many folks here: To what extent does a politician exploit one's family before it puts voters off.

I call bullshit. Obama could do an Aristocrats sketch with his family for political gain (what that would be, I have no idea) and people would say "that's his business".

It pains me no end to even remotely seem to take a side here, but, to quote NutraSweet, you know how stupid this has to get for me to do that? This stupid. Especially when people I respect do it.

[Mojotron]

Obama writes his speeches???

Oh good god. Even Weigel hasn't tried to shove that one down our throats.

*ahem* http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837368,00.html

[Mo]

There's not a Thursday NFL game until Nov 6. If you include college, I guess you're right. Though I don't think worrying about conflicting with the UNC-Rutgers tilt (next week) or K-State-Louisville (the following) is as big a goof as conflicting with the opening night of the NFL.

The college game today is USC (Gamecocks version) vs. Vandy. Meh.

[shecky]

You can call bullshit all you want. But if Obama has the stomach for it, and can make it fly, why should he not?

Look, sometimes things work or not depending on the delivery and who's delivering. If I make a racist joke, folks will likely jump on my case. If Chris Rock makes the same joke, I suspect he'll somehow make it work.

Similarly, some thing will work for Obama. Some will work for Palin. You can whine all you want that they can't equally make the same things work for themselves. But that is the very thing that distinguishes political candidates. Just reality.

[Bill\'s Dog]

"Well, first, *she* (or more accurately, "the campaign") fucking bragged about the teenage pregnant daughter, which makes it into crass using, rather than "unfortunate fact to be dug up by media". "

No, it was broght up to cover the "faked pregnancy BS.

Woof

[Elemenope]

Epi --

You don't have to wonder. I was pretty explicit.

You can add to that that it has become clear that she lies like a rug and is a psycho when it comes to sex education and contraception.

[Mad Max]

(If I can return briefly to the topic of the thread)

The jury proclamation celebrated September 5 as the day William Penn and William Meade got acquitted by a jury.

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/penntrial.html

They were charged of the common-law crime of, basically, riotous assembly. The evidence showed that they held an outdoor Quaker worship service. There was no violence except on the part of the goons who arrested them.

Penn protested that their actions weren't criminal. He seems to have been right, and the jury agreed, finding him and Meade not guilty. The problem was that the judges thought holding an outdoor Quaker prayer-meeting *was* criminal. Although there was a law against *indoor* Quaker meetings, there was no law against peaceful *outdoor* meetings.

The judges had the jurors fined and imprisoned for their Not Guilty verdict, which a higher court later pointed out was illegal.

In other words, it was the *judges* who nullified the law, not the jury. The jury was actually applying the law faithfully.

The modern dogma is that whenever the jury interprets the law differently than the judge, it's the *jury* which is doing the nullifying, even if the judge is wrong and the jury is right. It's not nullification of the law alone that upsets the supporters of the system, it's nullification of the arbitrary whim of the judge. Judges hold to a view like that of Richard Nixon in the David Frost interview, that "if the [judge] does it, that means it's not illegal."

As the case of Penn and Meade illustrates, it's perfectly possible to have a situation where the jury has the right legal interpretation and the judge has the wrong one.

Of course, there is such a thing as *real* jury nullification, when the jurors believe that the evidence warrants a guilty verdict, but where they also believe that a guilty verdict will produce an unjust result. In other words, the law has forced the jurors to decide between perjury and oppression. The fault lies with the law in forcing jurors to that kind of harsh choice.

[Lost Minds of the Depserate Po]

Time magazine???

Uh, hello? Biased much?

If Obama truly wrote his speeches, then the democrats would be all over the republican criticism that he doesn't. And they're not. Because they know it's just too untrue. He might outline, but he doesn't write that shit. None of them do.

[Mad Max]

Clarifying my own post:

"The judges had the jurors fined and imprisoned for their Not Guilty verdict, which a higher court later pointed out was illegal."

It was the fining and imprisonment of the jurors which was illegal, of course.

See also a reference by 18th century jurist William Blackstone to jury nullification as "pious perjury" to spare admittedly guilty thieves the death penalty for crimes which should not have been capital:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/blackstone/bk4ch17.htm

[Episiarch]

You can add to that that it has become clear that she lies like a rug

Again: WTF? How is this different than any other politician? OK, I understand that she hits a few hot spots for you on issues. But your problem on this thread is that she exploits her family "more" than other politicians. And I say that you're making an issue of that because you particularly dislike her, and not because you actually give a shit when politicians exploit their families.

[Episiarch]

You can call bullshit all you want. But if Obama has the stomach for it, and can make it fly, why should he not?

Because your own argument is not about "making it fly", it's that she's more exploitative. So you only care when the exploitation is done badly? How utterly douchebaggy of you.

[J sub D]

Palin is not "Obama in a pantsuit (or miniskirt)".

No sexism in team blue. Nope, none at all. Obama in swim trunks? The silence is deafening, Palin is a miniskirt (definition please) defionitely worth a snide comment.

LMNOP, because I know you're better than that, I'll give you a mulligan this once.

[Elemenope]

And I say that you're making an issue of that because you particularly dislike her...

Wrong. I'm making an issue out of it because REPUBLICANS ARE SUPPOSEDLY THE PARTY OF FAMILY VALUES.

Is this really so hard to get? Sure, my hatred of hypocrisy in this case is muddied a bit by the bittersweet taste of schadenfreude. So what. The point remains that only one party claims to give a shit about what people do with their family matters.

If she weren't a social conservative rally-round-the-family type, I honestly would care about this far less. But her roll-out as a candidate was practically bookended by the Republicans noting how fucking awesome she must be to have a Down's baby, and how neat it is that her teenage daughter is having a kid of her own. Because, if it were anyone else's daughter (god forbid a Black guy's daughter; just imagine for a second what it would be like if Obama had a pregnant teenage daughter) they'd be saying FAR MORE DESPICABLE THINGS.

Epi, you normally aren't this dense. Come on. Is it really beyond you that I hate this crap precisely because it is drenched in so much hypocrisy that it could smother a baby in its crib?

[TUC]

Obama writes his own speeches? He must have been a speech writer for Deval Patrick in 2006 then.

[Episiarch]

Epi, you normally aren't this dense. Come on. Is it really beyond you that I hate this crap precisely because it is drenched in so much hypocrisy that it could smother a baby in its crib?

And you normally aren't this sensitive. Maybe I'm looking at this too much from my own perspective, but do you actually fucking think for one second that these people are going to not be hypocrites? Any of them? For the life of me I cannot fathom why you are even the tiniest bit surprised or bothered. This is S.O.P. for politicians.

[Elemenope]

J sub D --

You apparently have lost your reading comprehension skillz.

Someone posts that Palin should not be marked down for not writing her own speeches. Normally, I wouldn't disagree. But the the person goes on to claim that no one on the other side writes their on speeches either. Which is untrue. And trying to make an equivalence between Obama and Palin is dumb. And so I pointed that out by saying that Palin is not the female version of Obama (i.e. she is not Obama in a pantsuit or miniskirt. Incidentally, she has worn both so far on the campaign trail; the mention of miniskirt was not meant to be sexist, just a notation regarding her gender.)

It is also true that Obama is not Palin in swimtrunks. So score one for the P.C. brigade.

[Imajerk.com]

"drenched in so much hypocrisy that it could smother a baby in its crib?"

That was hugely a cruel thought and a very unforgivable analogy. Are you trying to be a dick? I bet you're also sometimes called Team America.

[TUC]

Not that I give a fuck, but whoever thinks Obama writes his own speeches is delusional.

Deval Patrick, 2006:

"I am not asking anybody to take a chance on me. I'm asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations."

Barack Obama, 2008:

"I'm not just asking you to take a chance on me. I'm also asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations."

[The Hypocrisy]

just imagine for a second what it would be like if Obama had a pregnant teenage daughter) they'd be saying FAR MORE DESPICABLE THINGS.

He doesn't. They aren't. You don't know that "they" would.Lamest rationalization for rude media and Dem behavior in this election.

[NotThatDavid]

Because...uh, Obama is too ethical to lift lines from someone else, and only a scumbag professional speechwriter could do such a thing?

[Elemenope]

Epi --

I'm usually upbraiding libertymike for this, but you are usually more subtle. There are gradations of evil...hypocrisy being one of those naughty things which comes in grades. There are hypocrites and then there are HYPOCRITES.

What's different in this case is that the hypocrisy is STUNNING. Like knock-you-on-your-ass bad. The GOP makes the argument that if they were just put in charge and were allowed to instill are these shiny moral values in our kids, then all of the evils they identify in society would go away. Palin is a living, breathing example that the GOP is full of it on this, and yet both she and they go on with their abstinence-only education and their desire to block and/or slash programs that might help people in this very situation.

That's breathtaking hypocrisy.

[Elemenope]

You don't know that "they" would.

Are you saying I can't extrapolate from consistent past behavior? They tore into *Chelsea* with wild abandon, and she wasn't even pregnant. Listen to any of a dozen megachurch pastors and talk-radio personalities talk about teen pregnancy, and you'll know what I mean.

No, I can't say with certainty. But it takes faith on the order of moving fucking mountains to believe otherwise.

[Episiarch]

but you are usually more subtle

I'll let this and the "dense" crack pass.

That's breathtaking hypocrisy.

I expect it. So it has zero effect on me. I guess I assumed the same for you. My bad.

[Elemenope]

TUC, NTD --

Have you ever written anything? You borrow from people ALL THE TIME. BTW, he worked with Deval Patrick on his campaign, and Patrick himself has said he gave Obama the green-light to use those lines, so it was straight-up borrowing, not plagiarism.

So, yes, it is entirely ethical. Now if you wanna beat up BIDEN for plagiarism, you'd probably have a better case.

[shecky]

Because your own argument is not about "making it fly", it's that she's more exploitative. So you only care when the exploitation is done badly? How utterly douchebaggy of you.

Is it bad if she's more exploitative? Because I never said such a thing. I do think that the Republicans are not dumb enough to have done all this without expectations. And to their credit, I think it's working as they planned.

Look, it seems Palin was picked in part because harsh attacks on her would reflect more poorly on the attacker than would harsh attacks on Biden. Is that unfair? I suppose in some way. Do I mourn for Biden? No.

Politics is ALWAYS the same. Fling shit and see what sticks.

But this makes me a douchebag? Then fuck you.

[Elemenope]

Epi --

Fair enough. I just have a little less cynicism than you. Wait until I am as old and as wise as you, and I'm sure I'll be as bitter. 🙂

[shecky]

He doesn't. They aren't. You don't know that "they" would.Lamest rationalization for rude media and Dem behavior in this election.,/i>

I have a pretty good feeling "they" would. In their candid moments, even the folks at NRO admit this.

Sure, it's kinda shitty. But what kind of fool goes into politics not expecting such things?

[shecky]

end quote.

[Episiarch]

But this makes me a douchebag? Then fuck you.

No, FUCK YOU. Lighten up, I was just busting your balls. If I really wanted to insult you, I would have called you a douchebag, and not said that your position was douchebaggy.

My question is, why do the GOP's slimy political machinations seem to bother you more than the Dems'? For LMNOP's reasons?

[The Hypocrisy]

They tore into *Chelsea* with wild abandon, and she wasn't even pregnant.

citation please
*everybody know* doesn't count

[Elemenope]

But this makes me a douchebag? Then fuck you.

No, FUCK YOU. Lighten up, I was just busting your balls.

"Hey, Larry. Listen up. I've got prime, grade-A human fetuses here and...come on, Larry. You're breakin' my balls, Larry. I'll give 'em to you for $90 apiece. Stop breakin' my balls."

[Janet Reno]

Leave my daughter Chelsea alone !

[shecky]

why do the GOP's slimy political machinations seem to bother you more than the Dems'? For LMNOP's reasons?

They don't.

I'm just at a loss to see so many folks here, Jesse and Moynihan included, to express shock, SHOCK, that political campaigns, then those of the Dems/libs/Sullivan, can get nasty, evil, and just not fair.

[Elemenope]

The Hypocrisy --

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father". -John McCain, 1998

"Everyone knows the Clintons have a cat. Socks is the White House cat. But did you know there is a White House dog?" [Puts up a picture of Chelsea Clinton]. - Rush Limbaugh, 1994

That's to get you started. Do some googling, and dozens more pop out.

[Chelsea Clinton-Reno-Rodham]

Dad ! I can defend myself.

[J sub D]

LMNOP,

I got ya. A comment about Palin not being "Obama in a pantsuit (miniskirt?)" is neither snide nor sexist.

OOOOO Kaaaay.

You may resume your team blue politicking.

[Pro Libertate]

Let's not bicker and argue about oo killed oo.

[Episiarch]

"Hey, Larry. Listen up. I've got prime, grade-A human fetuses here and...come on, Larry. You're breakin' my balls, Larry. I'll give 'em to you for $90 apiece. Stop breakin' my balls."

I need my own Shakey's Pizza!

[The Angry Optimist]

"For, since her own father, who, when he seemed about to recover, suddenly felt the icy hand of death upon him...."

[NotThatDavid]

Jesus, does nobody remember the "Hugo Chavez in a pantsuit" line?

[robc]

lmnop,

The GOP makes the argument that if they were just put in charge and were allowed to instill are these shiny moral values in our kids, then all of the evils they identify in society would go away.

Bullshit. Specific example to prove my point, one of the 1996 primary debates when a not yet completely insane Keyes was railing against abortion and other value issues type things. The moderator asked him what he would do as president to fix these things. He said nothing, government cant solve the problem.

So his solution was that if elected, he would make lots of speeches and hope the values stuck. Now, you can argue that Keyes doesnt represent the GOP on these type of value issues, but I dont think anyone is going to buy it.

Listen to any of a dozen megachurch pastors and talk-radio personalities talk about teen pregnancy, and you'll know what I mean.

I attend a megachurch. I have heard the pastor talk about teen pregnancy. I have no clue what you mean. Then again, considering the rate of teen pregnancy within my church, he probably has to guard his words somewhat. I have some issues with some political type statements my pastor has made at times, but not wrt that issue.

[libertarian concern moby]

she's exploiting her family. she shouldn't have run if she didn't want scrutiny.

[J sub D]

The Hypocrisy --

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father". -John McCain, 1998

"Everyone knows the Clintons have a cat. Socks is the White House cat. But did you know there is a White House dog?" [Puts up a picture of Chelsea Clinton]. - Rush Limbaugh, 1994

That's to get you started. Do some googling, and dozens more pop out.

Agreed. The GOP took cheap shots at Chelsea. The Dems complained in was unseemly, even disgusting and I agree.

The Dems take cheap shots at Palin's kids and the GOP complains it is unseemly, even disgusting. Again I agree.

Hypocrisy on the issue seems to taint both team red and team blue*. But I'm not exactly enamored with either major party so what the hell do I know?

In this corner, from Chicago Illinois, we have pot. And in this corner, from the great state of Arizona, we have kettle. Ding!\

* Ditto for the she's (It's always a she) putting her career ahead of her children.

[ed]

Does anyone else think Palin looks like Peggy Hill?

[stuartl]

But the the person goes on to claim that no one on the other side writes their on speeches either.

In my defense, I was really just taking a cheap shot at Biden for fun. For some odd reason, all of the comparisons lately seem to be between the Red VP candidate and the Blue P candidate. I'm sure someone here can explain why.

Most presidential candidates use speechwriters. Attacking Palin for using good ones seems silly to me. But, if Obama writes his own speeches, good for him. Of course, many would feel uplifted if he read the phone book.

[shecky]

I thought McCain was modeled on Cotton Hill.

[Pro Libertate]

stuartl,

My theory is that an inexperienced candidate was intentionally selected to incite Democratic attacks on experience. It's a telegraphed sucker punch, but neither side is actually run by brilliant people, and both parties often fall into those kinds of traps.

[Elemenope]

robc --

Keyes is definitely not representative of the GOP base's view of the matter. You seriously can't tell me that a big portion of that base believes they are engaged in a holy war for the *Soul of America*, and that if they win everything will be peachy cause they'll have the power to make it so.

re:megachurches

I apologize by using slightly too big a brush. Certainly *some* evangelical pastors practice Christian love and humility before issues of complexity, such as sexuality and early pregnancy. However, you must admit that *many* do not.

Especially, I would say, those with whom the GOP is keenest to snuggle closely.

[Elemenope]

For some odd reason, all of the comparisons lately seem to be between the Red VP candidate and the Blue P candidate. I'm sure someone here can explain why.

I think it was intentional strategy on the part of the McCain campaign. Some (like R C Dean) see it as a feature. I see it as a bug. Either way, it is not how any campaign I can think of has ever played out before.

[Episiarch]

Either way, it is not how any campaign I can think of has ever played out before.

Sign #127 of why this is the stupidest. Campaign. Ever.

[Pro Libertate]

Elemenope,

It's got to have been intentional. When we posted the joke about Palin being selected by McCain on Urkobold in May (who knew?), I almost through in something about her being picked to provoke crazed attacks on her lack of experience. Naturally, instead, the Urkobold made me focus on her other assets. He's a cruel taskmaster.

In any event, if I expected that type of reaction, so much more would the experienced politicos with the GOP expect it. Regardless of whether this actually works or not, it really was a bold chess move, drawing out the Democrats' king.

Episiarch,

Frackin' A. By the way, thanks for coming to my defense in that other thread--I'm all aflutter ? I don't mind joe going off on me a bit--it's his M.O. during campaign season, which I think even he would acknowledge. He's got a lot of passion for his cause, I'm more Vulcan about mine. Losing all the time helps develop a stronger stoic world view. At least it does vis-?-vis politics.

[Dagny T.]

Elemenope,

That Fallows quote got at exactly what I was thinking watching her speech. It always icks me out when (it seems to be mostly female) pols use "being a parent" as some kind of credential.

I think Palin's references to her family seem more pronouced than, say, Hillary's because she has so little else to talk about.

On a somewhat related tangent, it bothers me that people swallow the idea that procreation is a credential for women (because what else are we really good for?) but not for men (because, presumably, they should have real accomplishments to talk about). Lowering the bar for women doesn't help anyone.

[robc]

lmnop,

Im sure it exists somewhere, but I dont know any churches that would, for example, kick out someone for getting pregnant our of wedlock. I havent heard of it. The stockades are out of style too.

Trust me, my pastor has snuggled with the GOP on occassion too. I have a problem with it too.

You seriously can't tell me that a big portion of that base believes they are engaged in a holy war for the *Soul of America*, and that if they win everything will be peachy cause they'll have the power to make it so.

A big portion of the base does not believe they are engaged in a holy war for the *Soul of America*, and that if they win everything will be peachy cause they'll have the power to make it so.

Huh, I can tell you that seriously. Wow, you are wrong again.

[Pro Libertate]

As your reward, please enter and win a Cylon Raider. Sure to break the ice at parties.

[Episiarch]

On a somewhat related tangent, it bothers me that people swallow the idea that procreation is a credential for women (because what else are we really good for?)

Fucking? That's all I have right now. I'll put some more thought into it after I accomplish something.

[Episiarch]

By the way, thanks for coming to my defense in that other thread

Don't mention it. You're too nice, and I'm not.

As your reward, please enter and win a Cylon Raider.

Neat! But I don't collect things. Makes it harder to move at a moment's notice.

[Pro Libertate]

Well, for all I know, ThinkGeek is offering a dream date with all of the Cylon women along with the spaceship. Oh, well, I tried.

[stuartl]

Pro Libertate,

Exactly. At some point (tonight?), the McCain camp is going to point out that they have experience at the top of the ticket and team blue has it the wrong way around. They will also point out that the candidate of change picked a safe, traditional inside the beltway VP, and that McCain took a risk and brought in someone from the outside.

I don't know if this is a good strategy, but you have to give the McCain camp points for cleverness.

[Dagny T.]

Fucking? That's all I have right now. I'll put some more thought into it after I accomplish something.

Well, that whole accomplishment thing does sound a little exerting. You could always try the poppin' out babies route. Don't worry your pretty little head about the biological impossibilities involved.

[Elemenope]

ProL --

I'm iffy on the line between "bold" and "psychotic". Above all, I think Sullivan is right when he says that this thing has damaged McCain's "steady, experienced dude" message. This was a Hail Mary from nowhere. Imagine a Hail Mary from nowhere on a nuclear showdown with Russia. Or as a response to a major terror attack.

Ick.

Dagny --

Yep. I think raising a family, either as a man or a woman, is really par for the course. To be a leader, you have to do something more, or at least stand for something more, than pretty much all of us do at some point in our lives.

robc --

My experiences with Christian Evangelism (which are more diverse than you might expect from a Yankee Atheist) lead me to believe that either you go to an *atypically* enlightened congregation, or are willfully blinded to the very publicly stated intention of some of your co-religionists. They are not exactly shy, either with their public rhetoric or with their fund-raising direct mailings. 😉

[Barack Obama, 2008:]

"I'm not just asking you to take a chance on me. I'm also asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations.""

Which is why I brought the campaign to Europe.

[Elemenope]

Well, that whole accomplishment thing does sound a little exerting.

And fucking *isn't*?!

Fucking: U r doin' it rong!

[Episiarch]

You could always try the poppin' out babies route. Don't worry your pretty little head about the biological impossibilities involved.

Hey, it's been done.

Well, that whole accomplishment thing does sound a little exerting.

And fucking *isn't*?!

Uh oh, Dagny just outed herself as the type of girl who just lies there. Shame.

[NotThatDavid]

Im sure it exists somewhere, but I dont know any churches that would, for example, kick out someone for getting pregnant our of wedlock. I havent heard of it.

Look harder. A high school senior in my town married her boyfriend before graduation this year because their church would have kicked them out for "living in sin" otherwise.

[Pro Libertate]

Elemenope,

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, but I think this was, in the short term, a good (and intentional) move. Whether she can campaign remains the open question. On the plus side, she's all mavericky, is an outsider, comes across more like a normal person (albeit a socially conservative one), shores up the base where he's the weakest, has some executive experience, draws out the left on their candidate's very weakest area, etc. The negatives will become more apparent as we get to know her better, and I'm sure there will be plenty.

I'm on record saying that McCain is a loon, but I do think he isn't quite as crazed as we tend to portray him hereabouts. Reagan talked loudly and left his stick at home, too, so that may be what McCain is aiming for. Except for Vietnam, which he will be invading next March.

[Bill\'s Dog]

"For some odd reason, all of the comparisons lately seem to be between the Red VP candidate and the Blue P candidate. I'm sure someone here can explain why."

Why not just ask obama? That neophyte was among the very first to get suckered in to explaining why he's more qualified than she is.

Woof

[Dagny T.]

Uh oh, Dagny just outed herself as the type of girl who just lies there. Shame.

Ouch!

"Give me an old pro like a Robert Redford. Oh, I'd jump into bed with him in a second. And I wouldn't just lie there, Michael Bluth, if that's what you're thinking."

And also:

Fucking? That's all I have right now. Fixed that for ya. 😉

[robc]

lmnop,

My experiences with Christian Evangelism (which are more diverse than you might expect from a Yankee Atheist) lead me to believe that either you go to an *atypically* enlightened congregation, or are willfully blinded to the very publicly stated intention of some of your co-religionists. They are not exactly shy, either with their public rhetoric or with their fund-raising direct mailings.

Well, considering the size of my church, the pastor and leadership make up a tiny percent of my co-religionists. Personally I think the SBC is enlightened, but I probably having a different meaning of that word that you do. 🙂 Actually, on a more serious note, as a disbeliever in gnosticism, I dont believe we have any special enlightenment that isnt available to anyone else.

Anyway, my point is, there is often a big difference in the political thoughts of the majority of the members and the leadership of the churches. For one thing, I dont think the majority has any political consensus, at least not within my church.

[lunchstealer]

Just gotta reiterate how awesome it is to have the ad for McCain: The Myth of a Maverick right above the ad for the McCain-Palin "Compliance Fund".

WTF is a compliance fund, btw?

[adrian]

ed:

I think she looks exactly like Tina Fey (30 rock, SnL).

[Episiarch]

"Give me an old pro like a Robert Redford. Oh, I'd jump into bed with him in a second. And I wouldn't just lie there, Michael Bluth, if that's what you're thinking."

You know, if you like Arrested Development this much, you should really check out It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

Fucking? That's all I have right now. Fixed that for ya. 😉

Now that's just cold.

[Dagny T.]

...you should really check out It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

Will do. I reserve skepticism, however, that anything can be as funny as Martin Short saying: "That's just something that happens to the body when you shake it."

Now that's just cold.

No worse than the (untrue! libelous!) bad in bed crack.

[John]

Either women are equal or they are not. No one to my knowledge has ever said one word about the effect of male politician's careers on their family. Not one. If women really are equal, then they ought to be able to do the same things as men. Last I looked men can have important jobs and run for office and have a family and not have a bunch of people run them down for being bad parents, women ought to have the same right. To do otherwise is to say that women must chose between career or family where men don't have to. I don't see how you can say that without buying into a bunch of sexist horseshit about women belonging in the home and being uniquely suited to raise children.

By the way, it is that attitude that gets men screwed in divorce court. Why the hell can't her husband take care of the kids? If the Palin's were getting a divorce and some judge or divorce lawyer said that he was, simply by virtue of being a man, less fit to raise the kids, you guys would be up in arms and rightfully so.

Furthermore, it is extremely unseemly and very un-libertarian to be prying into someone's home life like this. How she raises her kids is her business. I really don't care and neither should anyone else. Yes, she has used her family like all politicians, but only to introduce who she is and to say she didn't have an abortion where most people would. I don't find either of those points that relevant but some people do. Moreover, I don't think raising those points gives me or anyone else the right to tell her how to be a good mother.

Lastly, if Palin were a liberal pro choice feminist, does anyone here think that leftist nitwits like Dalia Lithwick would be questioning her ability to be a mother or her exploiting her family? Hell no. They have never made that charge against any other woman. Did they ever make it against Hillary? If Palin were a liberal they would be defending her like a pack of wild dogs if anyone even thought of mentioning her being a bad mother. They don't even believe that crap themselves. When some liberal says "how can she take care of her family?" they are really saying, "I don't like her and have nothing else to say."

[John McCain]

"WTF is a compliance fund, btw?"

Do everything I tell youto do and you need never find out.

[John]

One other thing. I know it is just signing a petition, but has any major party ticket member in the last 20 years done anything as remotely libertarian and subversive as signing this petition? It really surprises me she signed it.

[Pro Libertate]

I have a question uniquely appropriate for this audience. If Todd Palin turns out to be Michael Palin's cousin, would it affect your vote?

[John]

Pro,

I like Michael Palin. I think he is a smart and funny guy. I can't see how it would hurt.

[PG&E Boy]

"WTF is a compliance fund, btw?"

As someone who works for a regulated industry, perhaps it's a fund to pay lawyers and what not to make certain what the campaign does is in compliance with election laws.

[R C Dean]

She's also a moral scold

How so? What has she done that counts as scolding? The little bit she's said so far in this campaign has been almost completely devoid of culture war stuff.

who put her family in the line of fire for personal ambition.

Ah, yes. Here we see the double standard that "progressives" are perfectly willing to apply to women, but not men. There's been a lot of that with Sarah Palin, and it will only help her in the long run.

Really, I have no idea how good a VP she might be. But I like her so far, because just by existing she pisses off all the right people, and makes them look like fools.

[Pro Libertate]

John,

I agree. And I'm a big fan of his travel shows. I'd vote for him, surely. If he were eligible and all that. He's probably a socialist, but he's at least funny.

[dhex]

Lastly, if Palin were a liberal pro choice feminist, does anyone here think that leftist nitwits like Dalia Lithwick would be questioning her ability to be a mother or her exploiting her family?

absolutely not; it would just be reversed.

partisans, while temporarily entertaining, are predictable in the long-run.

[bigbigslacker]

As a compliance guy, it warms my heart to hear we have a fund.

[John]

"absolutely not; it would just be reversed."

Totally. It would be completely reversed. The question is which position is right not who holds it.

[Seward]

R.C. Dean,

The little bit she's said so far in this campaign has been almost completely devoid of culture war stuff.

Even if that is the case why would one limit it to the "campaign so far?" Particularly since her role in it was only announced seven days ago and she has to my knowledge made exactly two speeches in that time.

I guess if all the "right" people only includes liberals, progressives, etc. that would make sense, however, they aren't all the "right" people. A far more interesting and important issue - at least for me - is who is gladdened by her presence on the ticket.

[Elemenope]

RCD --

Though from a different thread, you questioned (rightly) whether mere membership in one or another church qualified Palin as a fundie nut.

I suggest you get thyself posthaste to DailyDish. He just put up two videos of a sermon she participated in.

Kinda sorta scary, in a fundie nut sort of way.

[BDB]

I don't think its particularly scary. Evangelicals are weird, but familiar. Rev. Wright was weird and (to most white Americans) unfamiliar so that story had legs, despite the fact stuff like that is said in black evangelical churches with frequency among the older preachers.

[John]

Elenope,

Did she go to the church for 20 years? Did she write a book and use the title based on one of the guy's sermons? Did she say that she can no more abadon him than she can his grandfather? If not, who cares?

The problem is that liberals are a day late and a dollar short on this one. I don't think anyone is really interested in having a fight about candidates churches. But, if you really insist, how about this idea, she is disqualified from being VP and Obama is disqualified from being President? Something tells me the Republicans can get a new VP quicker than Dems can get a new chosen one.

[libertymike]

Mo- 10:36 am

If the Giants game goes to OT-I am not going to click back and forth to McCain's speech-I'll wait for the game to end.

[Elemenope]

John --

You speak as if the things being said are equivalent.

To wit: Rev. Wright criticized the US government for being inattentive to the moral catastrophe that proceeded from it's domestic and foreign policy. That critique has its strengths and weaknesses, I'll readily grant. But it was *not* based on America being insufficiently *Christian*.

Most religious criticisms on the Right are based on precisely that point, that somehow government is not married closely enough to church. That's the difference.

[Seward]

John,

Harkening back to Locke and his views on religious toleration, I don't really care what she believes (or Obama believes for that matter), it is how that plays out with reference to those who are effected by her or his belief which is the issue.

[J sub D]

I admit it. I like Governor Palin. I'm not voting for McCain who I despise, but I like the tough lady from Alaska. The BS attacks against her regarding her family and experience from the left are not only hypocritical but incredibly dumb politics.

I've posted here before that I hope the Obama campaign folks, official and fellow travelers alike, don't fuck up what should be an easy race to win.

But being Democrats ...

[J sub D]

And who really gives a crap about what politicians profess to believe about religion. Is there anything easier or safer for a politician to lie about than their personal religious beliefs?

[Seward]

J sub D,

The biggest thing I've observed about Palin's candidacy is the hyperventilating that has occurred amongst many of her supporters and detractors.

[Seward]

J sub D,

The little bit she's said so far in this campaign has been almost completely devoid of culture war stuff.

Again, that depends on how those beliefs work with regard to the ability of others to live freely, etc.

[Seward]

J sub D,

Er, um, I meant to quote this statement of yours:

And who really gives a crap about what politicians profess to believe about religion.

[MJ]

A high school senior in my town married her boyfriend before graduation this year because their church would have kicked them out for "living in sin" otherwise."

The church was not kicking them out for having a child out of wedlock, but for living together without marrying, a bit of a different proposition.

Generally, religious people are not intolerant of lapses in moral judgement. Christians do believe that we live in a sinful world and no ordinary human is morally perfect. They are intolerant of deliberately and continuously ignoring sound moral judgement. Some secularists fail to understand the distinction.

[Elemenope]

MJ --

Because it is a distinction without a difference. To be morally pure according to the actual standards of Christianity, one should kill oneself and save the world the trouble. Except that killing yourself is a sin, too.

Bummer.

I'm somehow reminded of the film, Teeth. Talk about malignant self-righteousness. Yech.

[MJ]

"To be morally pure according to the actual standards of Christianity,..."

Again, Christians do not expect anyone to be morally pure. They do want a good faith effort to be made, however.

You really should not comment on subjects you do not understand, and apparently have no interest in understanding.

[JB]

"Fucking?"

Really? I'll have to find some more who are better at it.

[Famous Mortimer]

I'll have to agree with MJ, at least somewhat.

The various Christian doctrines are so absurdly arbitrary on many moral issues that they leave escape clauses like "repenting," and being born again as a means to excuse the inevitable "weaknesses" of their church leaders, and money lenders--I mean members.

They only expect moral purity from their avowed enemies, much like your average politician does.

[Fluffy]

Fuck you, MJ.

How's this for understanding? I am an atheist who cheers for Hollywood values. Funny how no one in my house is a knocked-up little skank, and funny how no one here looks like a trashy fucked-out realtor like Palin.

Christians do believe that we live in a sinful world and no ordinary human is morally perfect. They are intolerant of deliberately and continuously ignoring sound moral judgement.

Translated into honest language, this means that as long as you bow fervently to the flying spaghetti monster and SAY you adhere to its arbitrary code of moral values, you can do whatever you want. Fucking with bowing = OK; fucking without bowing = Not OK. It's simple, really.

[Neu Mejican]

Fluffy,

What did the mean Christians do to make you so angry?

[Famous Mortimer]

That's true. She does look like a Realtor.

She's the perfect white-bread, former cheerleader-esque, barbie doll-like, dominatrixee, carries-a-pistol-to-the-supermarket-on-Sunday specimen that Republicans will sell their souls for.

Despite her canned snarkiness, and robo-cop style delivery, it's the kind of factory produced shit that keeps the cash flowing into the coffers of the right.

Boys, we've got ourselves a good ol' fashion prize fight on our hands.

[Famous Mortimer]

"What did the mean Christians do to make you so angry?"

Well, I can't speak for fluffy, but I can say that they made me feel a little guilty about touching myself, which, in my book is unforgivable.

[MJ]

"I am an atheist who cheers for Hollywood values."

If so, why would you use a perjorative, judgemental term like "skank" to describe a woman in Bristol Palin's circumstances, Fluffy? It seems to me your problem is that believing Christians in real life don't live down to your prejudices about them.

[Elemenope]

MJ --

Anyone who claims to be a "true" Christian aloud is, by definition, too prideful to be one.

[iloilo]

If Red Beckman is deceased, it will come as a shock to both him and me, since I talked with him three days ago, his wife calling him to the phone from gathering strawberries.

Larry Dodge is still living well in Panama with wife Honey. I visit with them frequently. Other FIJA founder Don Doig is still in Montana, and I will be having dinner with him Sunday.

Over the years, many governors, mayors and others have issued Jury Rights Day Proclamations. Sarah did a good bit of research prior to agreeing to issue the Proclamation last year. There are jury rights educational projects across Alaska today, as well as many other states, today and throughout the year.

[TrickyVic]

I wonder if her being picked for VP has changed her attitude towards jury nullification?

I would like to see someone ask her if that's ok for a federal trial.

[Neu Mejican]

BTW,

One of 3 governors in a list that includes Christine Gregoire...do people have thoughts on how libertarian signing the petition makes one?