Detroit Police Unions Seriously Wonder Why Their Officers Are Paid So Little

It’s like a competition now. Who will destroy itself first: Detroit or California (or, you know, Greece)? Via Reuters:

Detroit's police union will file an appeal with Michigan courts to keep the city from cutting officers' pay by 10 percent, the Detroit Police Officers Association said on Monday.

Detroit police and firefighters are among some 10,700 city workers, represented by 48 unions, who face deep pay cuts and healthcare benefit changes imposed by Mayor Dave Bing without negotiations.

The pay cuts would save the city $102 million. As Reason Foundation Senior Analyst Shikha Dalmia pointed out, the city has a $265 million budget deficit. It is in debt to the tune of nearly $8 billion and has $12 billion in unfunded liabilities.

But never mind that:

Joe Duncan, president of the 2,075-member Detroit Police Officers Association (DPOA), said police have already given the city enough concessions, including changes to pension benefits last year.

"What type of individual are you going to have applying to be a police officer in Detroit when we are already 50th on the list of pay for the biggest 50 cities in the Unites States?" Duncan told Reuters. "We want the right to negotiate." …

Duncan said Detroit police officers start at a annual salary of about $33,000 and top out at $53,253 by their sixth year on the job.

Detroit’s unemployment rate for May (not seasonally adjusted) was 17.7 percent. The median household income (not individual) in 2009 was $26,908.

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  • Hugh Akston||

    This is all OCP's fault.

  • ||

    Oakland Clown Posse?

  • ||

    Fucking unions; how do they work?

  • Hugh Akston||

    You do realize that Tulpa has made half a dozen Robocop references in this thread already, and the best you can do is a four year old meme.

    How do you sleep at night?

  • ||

    On top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies.

    Tulpa had already ruined the Robocop references for me anyway. He's just not good at it.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    You have suffered an emotional shock. I will notify a movie quote crisis center.

  • Hugh Akston||

    I remember when I was a young commenter on this blog. I used to call Tulpa funny names. "Ironbutt" "Boner" Once I even called him..."asshole." But there was always respect. I always knew where the line was drawn.

  • ||

    Role models are important.

  • Tulpa the White||

    Do your farts smell more like Shakkar Noir or Success By Trump?

  • jasno||

    Shouldn't cops be paid well?

    Hold them to a higher standard - harsher criminal penalties and always-on badgecams for starters, and certainly reduce the number of stupid laws they have to enforce. But do you really want a low-paid police force that's susceptible to bribery and corruption?

    Mexico doesn't pay their police very much. How's that working out for them?

  • Tulpa the White||

    We're not talking about minimum wage here. Maybe they need fewer cops.

  • Tulpa the White||

    Or cyborg cops, which would be good for tourism.

  • Sevo||

    jasno|7.16.12 @ 7:19PM|#
    "Shouldn't cops be paid well?"

    Market clearing price. Cut their pay and benes until no one applies; add 10%. Presto: They're 'well paid'.

  • Scott S.||

    They're not going to be able to pay them anything at all in a couple of months.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I like the hostage taking going on here.

    If we don't pay cops a shit-ton they'll be as corrupt and brutal as Mexican cops.

    Fuck 'em. If they can't do their jobs without breaking the law then they can go to jail like regular citizens.

  • Tulpa the White||

    It's a concession to reality. Low-paid cops mean bribery and roadside shakedown issues that are difficult to police.

  • Chris Mallory||

    Bribery and roadside shakedowns might be cheaper than the current situation. At least a bribe won't make your car insurance skyrocket like some tickets will.

  • jasno||

    Again, you're blaming the cops when you should be blaming the law that empowers them.

  • R C Dean||

    Why can't we blame both?

  • The Rantin Arkansan||

    And this is assuming that Detroit cops aren't already as corrupt and brutal as the Policia.

  • DRM||

    Which is, um.

    Hey, maybe there have been massive, sweeping reforms, but I don't recall any under Archer, and I doubt there have been any since I left the area. Which leads me to suspect the culture in the department is unlikely to be greatly reformed from the days of Chief William L. Hart embezzling millions and officers Larry Nevers and Walter Budzyn beating Malice Green to death.

  • Mike G||

    The problem is "do YOU really want a low-paid police force"-- hey, none of us is Detroit. Detroit is its own mess. I refuse to take any responsibility for it. So what I want doesn't matter, because people like me were driven out long ago. You got what you asked for, Detroit, how do you like it now?

  • Old Mexican||

    Re: jasno,

    Mexico doesn't pay their police very much. How's that working out for them?


    Do you really think the police in the US are less corrupt because they're better paid?

  • jasno||

    Yes.

  • ||

    Why would you think that? How do you explain politicians, then?

  • jasno||

    Politicians aren't paid well and have a great incentive to make money by abusing their political power. What point are you making?

  • Invisible Finger||

    The level of pay has nothing to do with it.

    Bribery and corruption happens because the officer is dishonest and corrupt. Giving a 20% raise doesn't change one's nature. If anything, a raise will only make the corrupt ask for larger bribes.

  • jasno||

    It's not a simple linear relationship. Sure, corrupt people will always be corrupt. Do you think that a guy who's normally honest but is, say, struggling to feed his family and pay for housing, won't bend the rules a bit to take care of his own?

  • Tulpa the White||

    "What happened in Detroit can happen in the rest of America."

    --- BO

  • Mike G||

    If you can't learn from Detroit, what can you learn from? --Walter Russell Mead, or maybe a commenter at his site, I forget

  • Brutus||

    Democratic Party rule from top to bottom?

  • General Butt Naked||

    If only Detroit could take that $100mil and invest in some sort of mechanical police officer. They could mass produce these 'Mecho-Officers' and only have to rely on maintenance costs.

  • Tulpa the White||

    I'd buy that for a dollar!

  • General Butt Naked||

    Wanna hear something crazy?

    I was turning left off of Brownsville Rd in Carrick today and there were a long stream of cars coming so I was in for a wait. One of the cars was a cop and he stopped in the middle of the street and waved me through. Deity as my witness that was the first nicety a cop has shown me in my life. I was so dumbfounded that I almost pulled over to weep.

    Doesn't make up for the time the MOPD truck tried to ram me because I didn't let him out, i.e. showing due deference. There's a reason I don't carry.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    Sounds like they need the future of law enforcement, ED 209.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Romney is gonna be toast when that footage of a Bain board meeting is released to the public.

  • Killazontherun||

    That's where the monocles, Cuban cigars, and booze sniffers while laughing at the boobus working man really comes out.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Hey, you gotta break a few eggs right?

  • ||

    The irony is thinking a company based in Detroit could design and manufacture a robot.

  • ||

    Maybe Mayor Bing could swing an endorsement deal from Microsoft.

  • Hugh Akston||

    It disgusts me that you even know what Bing is.

  • R C Dean||

    I tried Bing, because I was hoping for an alternative to Google on general principles.

    It sucked. I went back.

  • The Rantin Arkansan||

    10,700 city workers, represented by 48 unions

    Hmm... I believe... yes, I believe I may have found the problem.

    That's insanity.

  • Tulpa the White||

    Not sure, but it's likely they had a lot more workers in the past and simply couldn't get rid of the unions as easily as the workers.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    Detroit's screwed.

  • Sevo||

    One's bad enough....

  • DRM||

    One of the unions has five members; another has two; a third has only one. From back in March - Herbert Jenkins Heads Detroit Union With a Single Member—Him.

  • Brutus||

    Does he have to threated to break his own kneecaps with a ball bat if he don't vote right?

  • Tulpa the White||

    "Together I bargain. Apart I beg."

  • Killazontherun||

    Yes, but are their uniforms made in China?

    Check my own label on this shirt. Oops, I'm as bad as those Olympic sponsors.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    Mine was made in Peru. Is that better?

  • Killazontherun||

    Pedro was exploited too.

  • Pound. Head. On. Desk.||

    When they said the shirts were made in "western South America" I thought they meant like Arizona or Texas.

  • Killazontherun||

    I would like to see the reaction of a local hippie vendor advertizing 'buy local' when a skinhead comes into his store and says, 'you know why I'm buying from you? I know these clothes were made by white people like you. It just creeps me out thinking that a spic or gook in China or Guatemala touched my stuff before I wore it. I'm recommending this place to all of my friends'

  • R C Dean||

    No reason you can't do that, Killa.

  • ||

    wow.

    that is some shit-tastic pay for a cop.

    not sure what the COL is in detroit, but in comparison

    i get over 90k per year base (base includes incentives for my college edumacations, etc.)

    my dept. pays 100% of my medical (about 17k per year)

    i take my police car home (bitchen savings on commute time and gas. i can go my entire week w.o even driving my personal car. can take it to gym pre or post shift, etc.)

    we have great disability etc. insurance if we need it ( i took it once after a surgery for a couple of months)

    if i get assigned to court, it's a 4 hr overtime minimum (if it's on a day off or more than 4 hrs prior to or after shift) no matter how long it takes. i get a subpoena, drive to court, they tell me 'defendant just pled. have a nice day'. drive both ways, shower time (hey, it's shower day! ), etc. might take 1 1/2 hrs.

    boom 4 hrs OT

    and in regards to pay and cop quality. it's not just about corruption. it's about quality of employee.

    the better you pay/the better benefits you offer, the better quality of officer applicant you entice, and thus the better talent pool you have to choose from, and the better officers you end up with.

    i see this OVER and OVER again.

    we have officers fail our field training program (despite our much more rigorous screening) and do JUST FINE in several other local pd's that don't demand as many skillz.

  • ||

    if you pay shit, you get far less talented applicants. thus, you get less talented cops. i;m not talking about corruption, etc. i'm just talking about lack of talent.

    i work with some very talented and credentialed cops. why? because cops and entry levels from all over the country apply whenever we have openings. we have a much higher applicant/officer ratio, again, because our benefits and pay are more desirable

    it's simple market economics. you get what you pay for.

  • Jerry on the road||

    But we're paying for what, enforcing BS laws on gambling, prostitution and drugs and whatever not.

  • ||

    i haven't done a gambling, prostitution or drug case in a long time

    i have my work laptop next to me right now, let me give you the last 30 incidents i had to write a case report (i'd say on average, i have to write a case report on maybe 1/4 to 1/6 of the incidents i am assigned to)

    sex offense, nsc
    burglary res f/e
    neighbor dispute
    trespass
    harassment via phone
    burglary res n/f
    larceny tfb +250
    weapons violation
    collision, non injury
    threats
    kidnapping
    burglary res f/e
    stalking
    burglary res f/e
    threats
    threats
    criminal warrant
    burglary res f/e
    burglary res f/e
    burglary res f/e
    burglary res f/e
    court order violation
    burglary res f/w
    court order violation
    vandalism
    burglary res f/e
    bombing
    burglary res n/f
    mental complaints (invol commit)
    found person (originally lost mental ill)
    mental complaints (invol commit)
    mental complaints (invol commit)
    lost person (followup)
    criminal warrant
    mental complaint (invol)
    burglary res f/e
    accident, injury
    weapons violation
    custodial interference
    assault fourth degree DV

    note that a substantial percentage of simple cases (no suspect info etc.) are documented via phone by dispatch. we generally only get assigned to felonies and cases with suspects on scene, etc.

    i don't see any gambling, prostition or drug cases.

    9 of those incidents involved custodial arrest

    and of course each invol involved a custodial situation as well

    hth

  • General Butt Naked||

    I guess all the drug dealers and prostitutes arrest themselves.

    hth

  • ||

    i guess i work in a state that has a right to privacy, unlike most states.

    we also have units that concentrate on drug offenses (mostly sales of hard drugs)

    realistically speaking, at least in my area, nobody is doing much about, nor gives a flying fuck about misdemeanor mj bullshit

    patrol cops can go YEARS in between doing mm mj cases. much like in seattle, cops simply don't do them quite often

  • General Butt Naked||

  • jasno||

    Ok dipshit, now tell me how many of those are in WA state.

    The west-coast is generally pretty friendly when it comes to the herb.

  • General Butt Naked||

    At least 10k a year, dipshit.

  • jasno||

    13,000 - or about 35/day. Out of a population of 6.8 million(or about, what, 680,000 stoners). Dunphy must be running wild going after all of them.

  • jasno||

    Full disclosure: I was once arrested for MJ possession in WA state.

  • jasno||

    So having low-paid, low-skilled, corrupt cops is going to fix the laws?

    Fix the laws. Stop hating cops and remove the laws that empower them to do the things you hate.

  • General Butt Naked||

    So, all it takes is a pay cut for cops to become corrupt degenerates?

    Doesn't say much for the character of the boyz in sacre bleu.

  • ||

    you are more likely to get applicants who are more likely to yield to corruption if you do not offer decent pay/benefits.

    yes. i think that's axiomatic.

    and it's not that ofc X will BECOME corrupt based on lower pay, it's that you won't be able to find enough stalwart morally sound applicants if you offer shittastic pay. a

    talent seeks higher pay.

    again, this is more about talent than corruption, but ceteris paribus, yes worse pay = more corruption

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:21PM|#
    "again, this is more about talent than corruption, but ceteris paribus, yes worse pay = more corruption"

    The *EXACT* same is true in any employment contract. Cops are worth no more than the market clearing price.
    If the supervisory staff can't do their job, they need pink-slips.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Yup, all the meatheads with associate degrees in criminal justice are going to work for Bain capital if you cut cops' pay. Har har.

  • R C Dean||

    you won't be able to find enough stalwart morally sound applicants if you offer shittastic pay.

    This assumes that departments that pay well are populated by stalwart, morally sound officers.

    Why do I suspect that NYC pays well, yet nonetheless is not covered up with stalwart, etc?

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 8:00PM|#
    "if you pay shit, you get far less talented applicants."

    market clearing price, Dunphy. Like any employer.

  • ||

    this isn't a hypothetical. and it's not just another internet wank. it's simply indisputable from what i have seen and n= metric assloads.

    i am happy to live in a community that has high standards for their cops and pays their cops very well. i know if i need a cop, i am going to get (more likely) a skilled, compassionate, hardworking cop.

    i'm not saying detroit is doing the wrong thing. if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. but it's already a cesspool of crime, and less talented officers are less capable at addressing same.

    you also increase your civil liability exposure if you have less talented cops.

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 8:38PM|#
    "this isn't a hypothetical. and it's not just another internet wank. it's simply indisputable from what i have seen and n= metric assloads.

    i am happy to live in a community that has high standards for their cops and pays their cops very well. i know if i need a cop, i am going to get (more likely) a skilled, compassionate, hardworking cop...."

    None of which addresses the point. You think MicroSoft pays higher than market clearing price? If so, you're nuts; they pay what is required to accomplish what they want to do.
    Don't bother wasting your time claiming the market clearing price doesn't apply to cops; it does.

  • ||

    sorry, but you simply see a different caliber of applicants when you offer better benefits. if you want less corruptible, more talented officers, you offer better benefits/pay

    working for microsoft (in most positions) doesn't offer anywhere near the emotional stresses, corruption opportunities, etc. that law enforcement does.

    you get what you pay for.

    some of my coworkers quit much more lucrative jobs (150k etc.) to become cops. but they wouldn't have done it for 50k

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:27PM|#
    "sorry, but you simply see a different caliber of applicants when you offer better benefits. if you want less corruptible, more talented officers, you offer better benefits/pay"

    Try to address the issue.
    I'm tired of "COPS (teachers/firefighters/metermaids/janitors) ARE SPECIAL!"
    If you're going to make that claim, tell us exactly why "COPS ARE SPECIAL!" And why cops are somehow exempt from the hiring practice of every private company. EXACTLY why.

  • Sevo||

    Oh, and just for the heck of it, do you think MS has no security personnel? Do you think MS pays more than market rates for them? Do you think *they* don't have the opportunities for mayhem?

  • General Butt Naked||

    working for microsoft (in most positions) doesn't offer anywhere near the emotional stresses, corruption opportunities, etc. that law enforcement does.

    Citation please.

  • Sevo||

    ^ This.
    Evidence required or bullshit.

  • General Butt Naked||

    For us peons we need peer reviewed double blind motherfuckers to make a point. If yer dunphy, a member of the governing class, personal opinions/anecdotes are all the data needed.

    We should just shut up and take what we can get.

  • jasno||

    What industry do you work in where companies looking for better talent don't offer better incentives? You poor bastard.

    Look, cops are special. I don't give a shit about firefighters, metermaids and janitors, but cops have your freedom in their hands. They are, like it or not, empowered by laws that make them special.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Diminishing returns?

  • Mike G||

    You know what else is simple market economics? If you can't afford it, you can't have it.

    Who do you propose should take on the responsibility of paying for Detroit after four or five decades of it utterly shirking responsibility for itself?

    Sometimes you just have to let go and let them finish the job of destroying themselves.

  • ||

    has anybody said it yet?

    nuke it from orbit!

  • Mike G||

    Nuking Detroit would be redundant.

  • Geoff Nathan||

    Err... Excuse me--I live about a quarter mile from the Detroit city line. I'd just as soon not glow, if you don't mind...

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    move? Goldeneye is lining up for the shot.

  • Chris Mallory||

    Sounds like you are way over paid. You need to be on salary. If you have to go to court it should be part of your job, not an opportunity for overtime. No government employee should earn overtime. I do hope you are being taxed on the value of your "official car" and the gas the tax payers are providing you. That is only right and moral.

  • ||

    nope. i'm not being taxed on my car. and i wouldn't work this job if court, etc. didn't pay overtime. it would also offer perverse incentives. if court didn't pay overtime, iow you required officers going to court to work EXTRA hours for free if they had court, they would , to some extent, make less cases.

    an officer who pulls over a dui knows it is going to result in likely 2 court hearings. that's a lot of time away from family. you don't think an officer would be incentivized not to look as hard for DUI's if they knew every arrest they made would take time away from their family without pay?

    get real.

    sorry, i don't agree with your morals.

    my take home car is based on my position and based on contract.

    also, studies have shown take home cars actually SAVEd our agency money due to wear/tear issues, hourly pay issues, etc. it's actually cheaper.

    just like it's cheaper to understaff and pay significant overtime than it is to fully staff, due to ancillary costs with more employees (officers on OT don't also incur extra personnel costs like new officers do)

  • General Butt Naked||

    an officer who pulls over a dui knows it is going to result in likely 2 court hearings. that's a lot of time away from family. you don't think an officer would be incentivized not to look as hard for DUI's if they knew every arrest they made would take time away from their family without pay?

    Followed by:

    sorry, i don't agree with your morals.

    Is very telling.

  • ||

    sure it is. i'm pragmatic and i live in the real world. if you incentivize behavior, more of it happens. if you create strong disincentives, you get less. if you punish ofc's for making dui's, which not paying them for going to court on day off would do, you will get less dui's

    period.

    welcome to the real world

    where libertarians realize incentives affect behaviors.

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:41PM|#
    'Cops are SPECIAL!'
    Already read it; calling bullshit.
    Prove it.

  • ||

    the job is different. the opportunity for a programmer in microsoft to cause injury, death, tens of millions of dollars of liability to the public etc. does not match a police officer.

    there is a reason why we have far more extensive background, psych, polygraphs etc. than microsoft

    the jobs are qualitatively differnt

    you say special. i say different

    the very same morons who CLAIM we are given "the power to kill people" who claim we can do x,y and z with impunity (unlike microsoft doods) are now claiming no distinction

    jesus christ, the stupid it burns
    .

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the bullshit artist):
    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:52PM|#
    "the job is different"
    Yeah, it pays more than it should.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    jesus christ, the stupid it burns

    there's an ointment for that.

  • General Butt Naked||

    But, giving overtime wages for court appearances doesn't incentivize over-policing?

  • ||

    it very well may. i never said it didn't.

    except the primary onview that requires court (far more than any other) is dui's. partially because of extensive civil and criminal aspects.

    you can't overpolice dui's because if the guy isn't dui and blows under a .08 you look like fucking moron.

    dui is , as i have explained extensively, about the only crime where the innocent have near perfect protection.

    not only does the breathalyzer not lie, but you have the right to be driven to a hospital for a blood draw by a physician of your choosing to test for blood alcohol

    if you are below a .08 you are golden

  • General Butt Naked||

    Oh, I see. It takes a $100k a year to hire a guy that will have another guy blow into a tube. You're right that does take talent. And we all know that someone blowing a .08 is incapable of driving.

  • Coeus||

    dui is , as i have explained extensively, about the only crime where the innocent have near perfect protection.

    That's simply not very reassuring when we're discussing a victimless crime.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    if you are below a .08 you are golden

    I have a friend who does DUI defense who would beg to differ.

    You may be able to get past the boilerplate "Subject exhibited bloodshot eyes, slurred speech, and uncoordinated motion and I detected the odor of alcohol" depending on the video, but your wallet is going to get much lighter on the journey.

  • Randian||

    No kidding. dunphy (per his usual) dishonestly omits that there are two offenses that are both associated with DUI: one is "driving with a BAC of .08" and the other is "driving while impaired". You can be convicted of the former while being under .08, because you can be "buzzed", "impaired", high, on Benadryl, whatever.

  • Randian||

    *latter*, excuse me.

  • Tulpa the White||

    "driving while impaired" is not called "DUI" by anyone who knows what they're talking about, Randian.

    Yes, they are both related to impairment, but it's clear dunphy was talking about driving under the influence of alcohol.

  • Coeus||

    if you punish ofc's for making dui's, which not paying them for going to court on day off would do, you will get less dui's

    Feature, not a bug.

  • R C Dean||

    my take home car is based on my position and based on contract.

    Doesn't mean it shouldn't be taxable. Fringe benefits (like a company car) are taxable to the employee. I'm not aware that the IRS exempts cops from this tax.

    Are you sure you haven't been committing tax fraud, Officer D?

    also, studies have shown take home cars actually SAVEd our agency money due to wear/tear issues, hourly pay issues, etc. it's actually cheaper.

    Studies by who? One thing I've learned is that I can get a study to justify any damn thing I want justified.

  • jasno||

    "No government employee should earn overtime.

    What? Why is that?

    Government employees, as long as they exist, should be paid a prevailing wage for the work they do. If the private sector pays overtime, why shouldn't the government? I'm all for keeping costs down, but that's just silly.

  • Fatty Bolger||

    The private sector rarely pays overtime to salaried employees.

  • jasno||

    It does when it makes economic sense to do so. Dunphy presented a case for why it makes economic sense for his department to do so. Do you think they should hire more cops instead?

  • R C Dean||

    It would be interesting to run a cop's job description through the DOL salaried v. hourly algorithm. Probably a (somewhat) close case, but the kicker is that the more the cops claim they are "professionals" who exercise "independent judgment", the more they make the case they should be salaried.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Batman isn't worth that fucking compensation.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Ladies and Gents we got a Winnah!

  • ||

    It amazes me how Batman thinks that because he's Batman it must mean he did it on his own. That he got to become a badass crime fighter because he was just so smart. Well a lot of people are smart and a lot of people would love to fight crime. The fact is that Batman didn't build his crime fighting job, somebody else made that happen.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Dunphy, you just did the impossible.

    You made me hate cops even more than i already did.

  • Paul.||

    What's your dog-shoot bonus?

  • LTC(ret) John||

    So, you think getting a better deal than a company commander in time of war is not a bit excessive?

    That which cannot continue, won't.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    ...and yet they hired you...

  • Brandybuck||

    Even for the economic armpit of Michigan, that looks like shitty pay for a cop. But you know what? The city is in some major debt and deficit right now. The choice isn't between a 10% pay cut and no pay cut, the choice is between a 10% pay cut and a bankrupt city. Do you really want to risk your salary, pensions, and seniority over that? Yeah it sucks, welcome to the real world of the Bushobama Recession.

  • Brandybuck||

    On second thought, holding out against the pay cut is a rational thing to do. The cow has been milked dry, you might as well butcher it for some steaks.

  • Lost_In_Translation||

    burn city hall this winter to keep warm while you're at it.

  • Sevo||

    Brandybuck|7.16.12 @ 8:14PM|#
    "Even for the economic armpit of Michigan, that looks like shitty pay for a cop."

    *Starting* salary is 20% above the median; don't sound shitty to me.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Dammit Sevo, don't you know that a criminal justice degree is like .25 times harder than a communications degree. That's like a lot, or something, I don't know they didn't teech us math to good.

    Ize have to beet nigers hard for that cash dood done not pay me it bad!

  • Sevo||

    General Butt Naked|7.16.12 @ 9:22PM|#
    "Dammit Sevo, don't you know that a criminal justice degree is like .25 times harder than a communications degree."

    I got the sarc/sarc, and I'm tired of every damn sucker at the public teat claiming 'the market doesn't work HERE!'
    Yes it *DOES*! The most successful outfits in the world pay no more for the talent they need than the lowest they can determine to fill that slot.
    SCREW the 'I'm special' crap.

  • ||

    the talent needed to fill an officer's uniform , do the bare minimum, etc. is far less than the talent to do the job well

    you want talented officers, you pay for it.

    and my agency, fwiw, looks down on CJ degrees as compared to degrees in philosophy, literature, the classics, etc.

    our philosophy is you can learn the CJ stuff at the academy and in field training. much better to have renaissance and people skills than a CJ degree

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:34PM|#
    'Cops are SPECIAL!' Read it; calling bullshit.
    Prove it.

  • ||

    do you honestly think a corrupt microsoft employee can cause the kind of public harm a corrupt cop can?

    the jobs are very different. i am out in the real world, making life and death decisions, and often with zero supervision.

    it is a very different job from working in an office.

  • ||

    note this is also why law enforcement agencies spend thousands, and in some cases tens of thousands dollar doing extensive background checks IN THE FIELD (fly ofc's out to applicant's neighborhoods), do polygraphs, multiple psychological tests, stress tests, etc. that microsoft doesn't do

    you can use the word "special". i'm using the word DIFFERENT

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:48PM|#
    "note this is also why law enforcement agencies spend thousands, and in some cases tens of thousands dollar doing extensive background checks IN THE FIELD (fly ofc's out to applicant's neighborhoods), do polygraphs, multiple psychological tests, stress tests, etc. that microsoft doesn't do"

    I see you CLAIM there is some reason for this; I call bullshit. Prove it; don't claim it.
    ------------------------------------
    "you can use the word "special". i'm using the word DIFFERENT"
    Yes, you're paid too much. Other than that I fail to see a difference.

  • Sevo||

    Oh, and:
    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:48PM|#
    ..."do polygraphs, multiple psychological tests, stress tests, etc. that microsoft doesn't do"

    Yeah, because they're worthless. Cite *ONE* of those 'tests' that have any repeatable results, please.
    So your "SPECIAL" has to do with 'passing' worthless tests?

  • General Butt Naked||

    do you honestly think a corrupt microsoft employee can cause the kind of public harm a corrupt cop can?

    For a master computer programmer you don't seem to have any idea what a job in the industry entails.

  • ||

    right. jesus christ, the stupid it burns.

    yup, one wrong command and the entire microsoft campus blows up and people die

    jesus christ.

    the same people who claim over and over cops are given special power to cause mayhem and death and to get away with it are NOW claiming that there is no substantive difference.

    seriously

    the cognitive dissonance and inconsistency is astounding

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:56PM|#
    "right. jesus christ, the stupid it burns"

    More than you know.
    Now, prove cops are SPECIAL!

  • General Butt Naked||

    You need to focus, your position is unclear.

    Many positions in our society have the ability to cause mayhem, but not the lenience in doing so as police are. Hell, a fucked up fry cook could poison thousands by 'forgetting' to properly handle the chicken.

    Please try to keep up.

  • Randian||

    And somehow, amazingly, less people have been killed by fry cooks than killed by police, despite the wide pay disparity.

  • General Butt Naked||

    And somehow, amazingly, less people have been killed by fry cooks than killed by police, despite the wide pay disparity.

    The numbers are skewed because our victims end up batter dipped and drenched in Frank's.

  • Randian||

    "I put that shit on everything!"

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:43PM|#
    "do you honestly think a corrupt microsoft employee can cause the kind of public harm a corrupt cop can?"
    So f'ing what?!
    --------------------------
    "it is a very different job from working in an office."
    One more "COPS ARE SPECIAL!" bullshit. I've asked you to prove it, and all I get is 'well, it's sorta hard to do'.
    Did you ever have a job?

  • Mrs. Kravitz||

    Posse always wins, Dunphy. Might vs. right.

  • Invisible Finger||

    you want talented officers, you pay for it.

    If we really wanted "talented" officers, we negotiate employment contracts with each officer separately. If the officer really had "talent" he'd WANT an individual contract rather than the same as everyone else gets.

    The talent on a movie, sports team, board of directors, etc. have individual contracts. That's the way actual talent is compensated.

    Mind, Detroit wouldn't be able to retain any "talented" officers in this manner anyway. But I'd bet Detroit has ZERO talented officers as it now stands - any officer with "talent" got the fuck out of there ages ago.

  • R C Dean||

    Bingo. Unions aren't really consistent with hiring, developing, and retaining genuine talent. They are more about protecting mediocrity and rewarding seniority.

    Besides, you can drop the most talented officer money can buy into the occupying-army, armed-enforcer-of-the-state, us-v-the-civilians tribalist mindset, and their talent becomes pretty much irrelevant.

  • Killazontherun||

    Holy crap, these guys have a death wish.

    http://cdn.wwtdd.com/wp-conten.....allone.jpg

  • Mike G||

    What type of individual would choose to be a citizen there, Officer Genius?

  • WWNGD?||

    One of the local councilmen today me that it cost the small town $100,000 a year for a new hire police officer. This includes the salary, health insurance, the uniform, and any other benefits and possibly the car. (I didn't ask if the car was included)

  • ||

    yes, the ancillary costs (not to mention the costs of flying officers to the applicants neighborhood to do door to door background checks, etc.) are large

    that's why it's cheaper for agencies to understaff and pay less officers, but plenty of overtime, than to staff sufficient officers such that overtime is not needed. my agency crunched those #'s years ago and it is one reason why they have us substantially understaffed

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:44PM|#
    'yes, the *waste* costs ... are large'

    FIFY

  • Voros McCracken||

    I think the key to solving the fiscal issues here is to raise taxes on all the rich people in Detroit.

  • Invisible Finger||

    Probably charging entry and exit tolls would help too.

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)|7.16.12 @ 9:43PM|#
    "the jobs are very different."

    EVERY job is " very different"
    --------------------------------
    "i am out in the real world, making life and death decisions, and often with zero supervision."

    Sorta like, oh, airline pilots? Those folks hired at market clearing wages? Sorta like that?

  • RBS||

    Between his bullshit "cops are special" attitude and his belief that citizens who happen to answer their door at 1 am while deserve to be murdered, because "fuck him" dunphy consistently reveals himself to be the exact type of cop he supposedly is against. There is a word for that isn't there?

  • Hugh Akston||

    There is a word for that isn't there?

    The New Professionalism

  • Randian||

    He claims to be a libertarian youse guize. No really.

  • Coeus||

    It's funny every time.

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy, I really hadn't realized how warped your view of 'cophood' is until this evening.
    Your posts make me *very* nervous about dealing with cops; entirely too much "I'm SPECIAL!".
    You ain't. You're a janitor with a (supposedly) limited grant to use force. No more, no less.

  • AlmightyJB||

    I'm not really sure why we need cops in the first place. I think easy access to Firearms and Explosives at the local corner gas station/market should take care of all of our justice related issues.

  • Sevo||

    AlmightyJB|7.16.12 @ 10:44PM|#
    "I'm not really sure why we need cops in the first place. I think easy access to Firearms and Explosives at the local corner gas station/market should take care of all of our justice related issues."

    Yes, it probably would, but comparative advantage and all that; do you want to do that as opposed to paying a cop what a cop's worth?
    I don't. I want to pay cops what they are worth to replace my efforts; the market clearing price.

  • Brendan||

    Time for them to do what every other entity does when they're faced with a large personnel budget and a shortage of revenue-CUT BACK!

    Focus on those with sustained complaints, attendance issues, writeups/suspensions, etc.
    If that's not enough, then the reinterview process begins.

    Sucks, but that's how it is for all of us who don't work for the local government.

  • Fernando||

    Without cops any thug would take your shit.
    Do you want that?
    Cops deserve everything they earn, if not more.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Speak for yourself.

  • Randian||

    I wouldn't take your stuff.

    GBN, would you take Fernando's stuff?

    Fernando, would you take someone else's stuff?

    The presence of the State does not make someone more moral.

  • Fernando||

    You're not a thug.

  • ||

    Why can't I hire a private security firm to protect my stuff?

  • Fernando||

    I forgot. Libertarians don't like to share. They only pay for security they need.

  • Coeus||

    Isn't that better than paying for security we don't need, like vice cops?

  • Fatty Bolger||

    How do cops stop thugs from taking your shit now?

    They bust down the door, take your shit, drive off long before the cops show up. That's how it works. The cops fill out a report, and then it's "nothing else happened."

  • R C Dean||

    Without cops any thug would take your shit.

    Their first acquisition would be a few hundred grams of lead.

    No matter how many cops we have, it is highly unlikely that any of them would be close enough to make a difference, in any event.

  • R C Dean||

    Should be grains of lead. Although if I empty the high-capacity mag, it could be grams, I suppose.

  • Fernando||

    stop the Monsanto Rider

    A so-called 'Monsanto rider,' quietly slipped into the multi-billion dollar FY 2013 Agricultural Appropriations bill, would require - not just allow, but require - the Secretary of Agriculture to grant a temporary permit for the planting or cultivation of a genetically engineered crop, even if a federal court has ordered the planting be halted until an Environmental Impact Statement is completed. All the farmer or the biotech producer has to do is ask.

  • nipplemancer||

    So it's bad to allow people to plant crops on their land without a special dispensation from bureaucrats? Why is this 'Monsanto Rider' bad praytell?

  • Fernando||

    This dangerous new House provision would strip judges of their constitutional mandate to protect consumer rights and the environment, while opening up the floodgates for the planting of new untested genetically engineered crops, endangering farmers, consumers and the environment.

  • Paul.||

    You know who else used to plant untested genetically modified crops?

  • Geoff Nathan||

    The Aztecs, that's who.

  • LTC(ret) John||

    The now extinct mound building Indians of Southern Illinois ?

  • MWG||

    (Gasp!)

  • Bee Tagger||

    This dangerous new House provision would strip judges of their constitutional mandate to protect consumer rights and the environment, while opening up a floodgate of planting of new untested genetically engineered crops, endangering farmers, consumers and the environment.

    Hopefully you run this website: http://dontjustlike.do/2012/07.....ection-ac/
    since you quoted verbatim from it.

  • Spoonman.||

    constitutional mandate to protect consumer rights and the environment

    Yeah...find that in the Constitution.

  • R C Dean||

    Fernando, could you direct me to the Article of the Constitution that give judges this "constitutional mandate to protect consumer rights and the environment"?

    Thanks.

  • db||

    I would say it's bad because it affirms that the Secretary of Agriculture has the power to tell farmers what they can grow on their own land.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    Wickard.

  • ZendoTinn||

    I think they need to get over it and be happy with what they have!

    www.Privacy-Been.tk

  • TWylite||

    I saw a program on television showing a Detroit police officer staying in a posh Beverly Hills hotel, so they must be very well paid.

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