Anecdotes About Horrible, Sexist "Quiverfull" Families Probably Proof That Homeschooling Needs More Government Oversight

Tedious critiques of homeschooling, like bad poetry, seem to be an infinite resource in the world. So, if you enjoyed Dana Goldstein's recent Slate tribute to the progressive greater good of not homeschooling, Kristin Rawls, writing at Alternet, has an article which doubles as anecdotal sob story about homeschooling as vehicle for sexist, uneducated, overly-religious familial tyranny.

Where to begin?

First of all, Rawls focuses almost entirely on former "Quiverfull" families in her article. Quiverfulls are Christians (about 10,000-strong according to various nervous, left-leaning sources, compared to more than 1.5 million homeschoolers in the U.S.) who feel like God should be the one to plan how many children they have. (Psalm 127, baby: "Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them.")  

A few years ago Quiverfull became a hot topic for a minute. This was particularly thanks to TLC's 19 Kids and Counting Duggar clan, but also due to Kathryn Joyce (who has some dubious things to say about homeschooling in Rawls' article) and her book about the practice; it was highlighted in places like in Bitch, Mother Jones, and Feministing because, not for nothing, it's a tailor-made nightmare for certain folks. 

And some of these folks eventually became disenchanted with the God as birth control lifestyle! They have stories! Stories of being either the mother of, or the actual barely-literate ex-homeschooler who grew up clueless about socialization, stupid about science and math, and with heads full of sexism and fear about the big, bad secular world. 

Here's one of Rawl's horror stories for ya:

Take Vyckie Garrison, an ex-Quiverfull mother of seven who, in 2008, enrolled her six school-age children in public school after 18 years of teaching them at home. Garrison, who started the No Longer Quivering blog, says her near-constant pregnancies – which tended to result either in miscarriages or life-threatening deliveries – took a toll on her body and depleted her energy. She wasn’t able to devote enough time and energy to homeschooling to ensure a quality education for each child. And she says the lack of regulation in Nebraska, where the family lived, “allowed us to get away with some really shoddy homeschooling for a lot of years.”  

“I’ll admit it,” she confesses. “Because I was so overwhelmed with my life… It was a real struggle to do the basics, so it didn’t take long for my kids to fall far behind. One of my daughters could not read at 11 years old.” 

At the time, Garrison was taking parenting advice from Quiverfull leaders who deemphasized academic achievement in favor of family values. She remembers one Quiverfull leader saying, “If they can do mathematics perfectly but they have no morals, you have failed them.” 

I, former homeschooled lass, also have more morals than math skills, but this is still a woman blaming a lack of regulation for her own mistakes. Garrison goes on to to critique her previous views about public schools:

“We became so isolated because the Quiverfull lifestyle was so overwhelming we didn’t have time or energy for socialization. So the only people we knew were exactly like us. We were told that the whole point of public school was to dumb down the children and turn them into compliant workers – to brainwash them and indoctrinate them into this godless way of thinking.” 

Garrison believes that homeschooling has become so popular with fundamentalist Christians because, “there is an atmosphere of real terror among some evangelicals. They are horrified by the fact that Obama is president, and they see the New Atheist movement as a vocal, in-your-face threat....

But is this just an anomaly? Rawls wonders and writes:

Unfortunately, it’s hard to know. The federal government only maintains very broad demographic statisticsabout homeschoolers in this country; federal data only keeps track of what kinds of people are homeschooling and why. You can find plenty of information about homeschoolers according to race, family income or highest education obtained by the parents. But as regards neglect related to homeschooling? The government cannot tell you -- and there is no systematic state-by-state record of the percentage of truancy convictions (possibly the best measure of educational neglect at present) that involve homeschooling families versus those involving enrolled students and/or their parents. 

Capturing that kind of data is essential to understanding the scope of this problem, but getting real numbers will always be complicated by the fact that many homeschooling families choose not to comply with the law by submitting to state homeschool regulations, or even report their homeschool activity to the state. While it’s possible that some forget, others intentionally fail to report because they fear too much government intervention in their lives.

"Fear too much government intervention in their lives" — Rawls doesn't outright say that to fear such a thing is a sign of Christian wackiness, but she most assuredly ties them together; to distrust public school is to be extreme.

See one reason she's not entirely sure about homeschooling is this lack of regulation thing necessitates lots of anecdotal evidence. The article gives a token nod towards not all homeschoolers are this way, but it's very half-hearted. Her only interview with a pro-homeschooling person seems to be a cranky unschooling mother who can't discus this issue without being offended. Rawls also damns one homeschooling mom with faint praise:

Maria Hoffman Goeller is one of those. A lifelong family friend, Goeller is a homeschool graduate raised in a conservative Christian home, where she never lagged behind in academics. Now she has a son with special needs in the California public school system but educates two other school-age children at home. “Part of the reason we homeschool is because I’m choosing what worldview or what subjects I want to introduce my child to,” she says. But she understand the limits of her own skill, which is why she placed her special-needs son in public school. “While I can teach my children reading, writing and arithmetic, I am not trained in special education,” she says. “I want my child to have the best education he can get, which at this time is public school.”

Though she considers herself conservative, Goeller does not demonize public schools as some families do. And contrary to stereotypes about Christian homeschoolers, Goeller is adamant that she will not sacrifice academic rigor, or shield her children from views different from her own. In fact, she says she would welcome more opportunities for them to interact with public school students, for example, in sports and even in certain classes now and then. 

She wouldn't mind them interacting with public school students! Imagine! 

Rawls goes on:

Luckily, more than a few adult homeschool graduates are eager to talk. And as I talk to more and more people who recount first-person stories of homeschool-related neglect, it becomes hard to write off what homeschool advocates would call “exceptions” simply as fringe outliers.

Erika Diegel Martin’s story is particularly haunting. A homeschooling graduate of the mid-1990s, and an ex-Quiverfull daughter I have known for many years, Diegel Martin was pulled out of public school at 14. Because she was old enough to remember several years of public schooling, she says she never really believed her parents’ dire warnings about it. Her younger brothers were another story. “When the school bus would come by, my youngest brother would go, ‘There goes the prison bus.’ Our parents had them believing that public schools were these horrible places, just dens of iniquity.” 

The narrative about public schools, she says, went something like this: “How would you like to get stuck in a building with no light – and secular, godless, atheist teachers for seven hours of the day without even being able to see your parents or go out to play?” As a result, she says, “My brothers were terrified of the public schools.” 

If Martin's parents piled the rhetoric on that little thick and sheltered to the extent described, that's maybe not so good. But Rawls (and Martin here, if she is being quoted honestly) completely destroy their own premise — their maybe not totally bullshit premise that there are truly neglected children out there who are going totally unnoticed by authorities— by incessantly implying that to distrust government-run schools and to describe them as places of restriction is abusive or at least suspicious brainwashing. 

And does it need to be said, since the spelling bee champ nerdy homeschooler is a cliche, that yes, their test scores tend to be in the 70th and above percentile? That one is easy. It's the lingering questions about socialization and abuse that bother people like Rawls and Slate's Goldstein.

Never mind Goldstein's abstract progressivisms for now, maybe these families Rawls describes got screwed over by weird parents. But so do lots of people in public school. And lots of other people generally resent their parents, their education, and their upbringing. This is how society works when we have religious choice, reproductive choice, and (some) education choice.

Really, what would be the solution to fathers who teach their little girls to be "stay-at-home-daughters" until marriage? Beyond a socially-free libertopia where these girls might notice quicker that they do have other options, there just isn't a fix for parental brainwashing. And I am curious whether Rawls (and Goldstein) thinks that there is. 

Rawls does not clarify where her recommended official line between parenting choice and education neglect lies. But after lightly touching on how truly awful homeschooling laws are in Sweden and other parts of Europe, Rawls ends her article with:

No one I speak to who is homeschooling today mentions that this sort of oppressive regulation is a reality for current homeschooling families. Instead, they say that today’s regulation consists mostly of bureaucratic paper-pushing – hardly the kind of homeschool persecution some fear. It may be annoying, but so far as I can tell, it’s not trampling on anyone’s rights – though that doesn’t keep homeschoolers from worrying. 

The fights that homeschool groups have won in the United States are not mentioned. Nor is the fact that it wasn't until 1993 that it was legal to homeschool in all 50 states; and never mind the few months in 2008 where 50,000 California homeschoolers had to wait and wonder if they were suddenly breaking the law. There is only, from Rawls the worry about the children, the shrug and the "what's the big deal about regulation?" attitude.

In 2007, 83 percent of responders to a survey said "moral or religious instruction" was why they homeschooled their children. Moral or religious; I might argue that my homeschooling libertarian agnostic parents qualify under the former definition. (They certainly imparted their morals to me and I noticed after a while that much of the world seemed to disagree with their bold government-ain't-so-hot message.) And my dad, knowing the rhetorical heaviness, but more or less meaning it, more than once in my childhood described schools as "minimum security prisons." (Is that alarming rhetoric to Rawls? She also frustratingly uses lazy cues like "anti-government extremist" to describe Erika Diegel Martin's parents without clarifying what that means beyond the aforementioned anti-school talk.)

Every parent, from the biggest, most public-sphere-friendly communitarian atheist, to the most bunker-dwelling religious fanatic, imparts their morals to their children in some fashion. All else, good and bad, follows. What's the alternative?

Read Rawls' whole thing here. And check out Reason on homeschooling.

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  • The Christmas Atheist||

    I disagree with you. Tanquam ex ungue leonem: reductio ad nazium.

  • The Christmas Atheist||

    I disagree with you. Tanquam ex ungue leonem: reductio ad nazium.

  • The Christmas Atheist||

    I disagree with you. Tanquam ex ungue leonem: reductio ad nazium.

  • The Christmas Atheist||

    I disagree with you. Tanquam ex ungue leonem: reductio ad nazium.

  • The Christmas Atheist||

    I disagree with you. Tanquam ex ungue leonem: reductio ad nazium.

  • The Christmas Atheist||

    I disagree with you. Tanquam ex ungue leonem: reductio ad nazium.

  • :)||

    That is why you never respond to Native Cracker. When he gets deleted, you'll look like the crazy guy.

  • Ted S.||

    You mean they actually delete his posts?

  • The Christmas Atheist||

    That is why you never respond to Native Cracker. When he gets deleted, you'll look like the crazy guy.

    "Looks like?" Why, thank you!

  • Mike E||

    Might want to check out, "unnoticed by authoritioes— by"

  • Hugh Akston||

    Every parents, from the biggest, most public-sphere-friendly communitarian atheist, to the most bunker-dwelling religious fanatic, imparts their morals to their children in some fashion. All else, good and bad, follows. What's the alternative?

    Education and indoctrination in the socially constructive values by duly appointed and certified educational technocrats.

  • ||

    Now that sounds like a stellar idea!

  • Ryan||

    Homeschooling may be annoying, but so far as I can tell, it’s not trampling on anyone’s rights – though that doesn’t keep this bitch from worrying.

  • Liberal Griefer||

    YES IT IS TRAMPLING ON RIGHTS!!! THE RIGHT TO FORCE THE STATE'S CHILDREN TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS ONLY!!!!!!ONE!!!1!!ELEVENTY!!!!!

    ...except for the children of politicians, who are allowed to attend private schools at taxpayer expense. Because they're a-special.

  • Chloe||

    She is probably pissed that the kids aren't being indoctrinated correctly.

  • Xenocles||

    I don't listen to anyone named Rawls - nothing personal, just a heuristic that's served me well.

  • Lou Rawls||

    :(

  • Rover Rawls Over||

    :(

  • Xenocles||

    Sorry guys, John ruined it for you.

  • Sevo||

    "She [...] uses lazy cues like "anti-government extremist" to describe Erika Diegel Martin's parents"

    If you have to poison the well to make your point, you don't have one.

  • Xenocles||

    Her point is "fuck you."

  • adam||

    Does she really want to rely on anecdotes? Because I'm pretty sure we can go through the Reason archives for some stories of public school teachers abusing kids, molesting kids, and enforcing wacky disciplinary policies. We can also drag up the kids that shoot up their always public schools, often driven by the wonderful 'socialization' they've received.

  • Ryan||

    And let us not forget the opposing anecdote of Lucy Steigerwald.

  • Sevo||

    It's a couple of years old, but:
    "The results reinforced previous home-school studies conducted over a period of 25 years.

    Five areas of academic pursuit were measured. In reading, the average home-schooler scored at the 89th percentile; language, 84th percentile; math, 84th percentile; science, 86th percentile; and social studies, 84th percentile. In the core studies (reading, language and math), the average home-schooler scored at the 88th percentile.

    The average public school student taking these standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile in each subject area."
    http://www.washingtontimes.com.....nal-tests/

  • protefeed||

    The average public school student taking these standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile in each subject area."

  • protefeed||

    The average public school student was also likely to be amazed at the coincidence of all the test areas having the average hovering around the 50th percentile.

  • ||

    You know our school system is in a horrible state when half of students score below the 50th percentile.

  • Garrison K.||

    "All of the children are above average."

  • Tom Bo Dett||

    "See, that's kinda like an average. A little more in some cases, a LOT less in others."

  • Bingo||

    +lol

  • Sevo||

    'Cause they're all above average!

  • The Average Student||

    Aw shucks! 50th percentile again!

  • Jeffersonian||

    My wife is a government school teacher, and 11 year-olds who don't know how to read are not uncommon there, either.

  • Psychic Octopus||

    That's what I was thinking. If anecdotes seal the deal against homeschooling, there is more than enough to seal the deal against public schooling.

  • Bingo||

    Alright, fess up, which one of you old farts is Lucy's dad?

  • ||

    I think it's jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

  • Sevo||

    Can't be; burnt books.

  • CSNY||

    You who are on the road
    Must have a code that you can live by
    And so become yourself
    Because the past is just a good bye.

    Teach your children well,
    Their father's hell did slowly go by,
    And feed them on your dreams
    The one they picked, the one you'll know by.

  • the curious CSNY||

    How come child porn is not mentioned in our wikipedia entries?

  • Bingo||

    And she says the lack of regulation in Nebraska, where the family lived, “allowed us to get away with some really shoddy homeschooling for a lot of years.”


    Really? You can regulate away incompetence and shitty parenting? Holy shit does this woman lack self-awareness. And adapting the victim mentality to boot when she is the one that raised a flock of morons without a second thought.

  • Sevo||

    "Really? You can regulate away incompetence and shitty parenting?"

    You bet! Why, if the government official doesn't enforce the proper parenting laws at least twice a week, the poor kids might not know the value of the government!

  • Abner||

    There is no problem so small that more government won't make it bigger.

  • Old Salt||

    There is no problem so great that it cannot be solved through the careful application of high explosives!

  • Ryan||

    I thought the 'I was too busy having kids to be a good parent' line was hilariously sad.

  • pmains||

    When Arizona still had those awful freeway cameras, I was complaining about them to a passenger in my car. The detestable dolt actually told me, "well, I like having the cameras, because I wouldn't slow down otherwise."

  • ||

    Why do you think Rawls picked her?!

  • ||

    great article, although i find it funny the homeschooling critic apparently thinks: “If they can do mathematics perfectly but they have no morals, you have failed them.”

    is some sort of wrong/bad statement.

    i would prefer my children have morals AND mathematics skills, but certainly the former is more importat than the latter

    great article!

    i'd be curious to see what crime rates are for homeschooled vs. conventionally schooled juvies. i'd be willing to be the homeschoolers commit lower rates of crime, as well as the already mentioned higher test scores they get

  • protefeed||

    The critic apparently thinks that a bank robber and murderer who is very good at calculating the odds of not getting caught is preferable to a law-abiding person who isn't good at balancing their checkbook.

  • ||

    i thought math was a masculine imperialist misogynist capitalist oppressive "way of knowing" anyway?

  • pmains||

    You just reminded me how much I miss the regular updates to microaggressions.com. They updated their layout and then nothing happened for a week.

  • Rupert||

    Wow I never understood the constant sarcastic references to "microagression" on this site. Just went to microagressions.com for the first time. JESUS F*KING CHRIST! I'm a young guy (19) and I realized recently that I have a bit of a victim mentality. Its something I think I'm growing out of, and I try to work on it. But these people make me look like the most stoic motherf*cker on the planet! I have never seen people go so far out of their way to feel victimized and offended. That website should be renamed "firstworldprobs.com"

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Shut up dunphy. I agree with most of what you wrote, it's just that

    i would prefer my children have morals AND mathematics skills, but certainly the former is more importat than the latter

    from a man who tries to justify beating a homeless man to death because the perpitrators were wearing badges is rich.

  • ||

    Looks like one documentary maker still thinks that Obama is jesus ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

  • Barfman||

    *BARF*

  • Bingo||

    Truly a magnificent specimen of Homo sycophantus.

  • sticks||

    Janeane Garofalo looks just awful nowadays.

  • Sanjuro Tsubaki||

    She always did. Maybe your self esteem has increased since then.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    I think she used to be kinda cute in the halcyon days of the early nineties. Then she became a left-wing shill and, well, things just went downhill.

  • ||

    Piers looked like he was somewhere between enjoying toying with the idiot American and nearly ready to explode with expletives and outright insults.

    And as far as I know, Piers tends to give the establishment the benefit of the doubt.

  • ||

    Does anyone else get the "do you think you're better than us?!?" vibe that seems to pervade much of the anti-homeschooling diatribes? I always get this feeling that beyond all the other stuff Lucy mentioned as prevalent in these concern troll pieces, the writer is offended that someone doesn't want to send their kid to public school (which they went to) as if it was a personal insult.

  • Chloe||

    Frankly I am personally insulted by the fact that anyone would want to go to my high school.

  • ||

    So you went to Choate, then?

    But regarding the anti-homeschoolers: it's like they're pissed off that someone would dare to not want to join their collective.

  • ||

    epi, did u go to choate? lol

  • ||

    God no.

  • Sanjuro Tsubaki||

    The only anti-homeschoolers that I know of are left wing public school teachers.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Your name looks Japanese. You Japanese? If so, I can understand why you don't like public schooling. Seriously, school in Japan is a wide-awake nightmare.

  • Ryan||

    I kinda get that vibe every time I step outside wearing my no-nonsense-fashion-based-upon-functionality clothing and my rugged 'I don't want to talk about the fucking weather' disposition.

  • Bingo||

    my no-nonsense-fashion-based-upon-functionality clothing

    Ahhh, a proud owner of a utilikilt.

  • Old Salt||

    Or a grenade bandolier!

  • Ryan||

    Useful for those holy-shit-there's-a-panzer-coming-straight-for-us moments

  • Arko||

    That happens more often than you would think.

  • Trent||

    If I had a nickel...

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    I wish more men would wear kilts, particularly if they have good legs.

  • Bingo||

    Concern trolling is the most obnoxious form of discourse. It seems like >50% of opinion pieces are nothing more than pure concern troll. If the US ever became a progressive utopia I would expect that number to rise to 100% cuz progressives loves them some concern trolls!

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    progressive utopia

    No such thing.

  • 4ou30453u||

    which they went to

    Only problem with that thought is that most public school teachers and their elitists supporters send their kids to private schools.

  • Psychic Octopus||

    Yes. Homeschooling is an implicit assertion that maybe "qualified professionals" (teachers) don't have a clue or the institutional environment is not as good as The Planners intended. Even if not personal, it does aim at their basic faith in Experts.

  • Chloe||

    I personally cannot wait for this to be rolled out across this nation's public schools.

    http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/85075194

  • high school kid||

    Oh yeah, well then how come ...?

  • high school kid - explained||

    ... = [example of way the world is]

  • Coeus||

    Goldsteins reply is straight up confirming the indoctrination angle:

    My own belief is that when it comes to the typical child, however, homeschooling does not comport with crucial social justice values related to investing in the common good,

    She even bolds it, just incase you missed it.

    http://www.danagoldstein.net/d.....-kids.html

  • Bingo||

    Who knew one could pack so much vomit-inducing bullshit into a single sentence.

  • ||

    whenever i see the terms 'social justice'... MEGO

    it's a pretty reliable filter that the person will be spouting idiocy. if they use 'social justice' and the term 'speak truth to power', it's a near certainty

  • Arko||

    also "almighty dollar" is a bonus for stupid

  • SIV||

    You only capitalize those damn acronyms.

  • ||

    wtf? :)

  • anarch||

    Hello, dunphy!

    I keep missing you, by a minute, an hour, or something in between.

  • ||

    hey, i already commented on that

    if 1/10 of the stuff levied against that guy is true, he is the perfect storm of badcopawesum

    deserves a loong prison stay

  • anarch||

    Had you clicked through the chain of links, you would have come to my question that I don't recall your addressing, so if you care to do so, I would still be interested in your response:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2VpVdhsnF8

  • Coeus||

    And check out the DANA-ENDORSED list at the bottom of the page. It's like a who's who of the jackasses we make fun of here on a regular basis.

  • Bingo||

    Wow, she actually has Will Wilkinson on there too

  • SIV||

    lol

    No progressive jackass is too obscure.

  • Friedrich Hayek||

    To discover the meaning of what is called "social justice" has been one of my chief preoccupations for more than 10 years. I have failed in this endeavour — or rather, have reached the conclusion that, with reference to society of free men, the phrase has no meaning whatever."

  • killazontherun||

    To the extent that you have rights they are defined by your race and your class, and those rights, or lack of there of, trumps your rights as an individual.

    Which is why the constitutional order is anathema for those who accept Critical Race Theory like one Barack Obama (his radio interview talking about positive rights is more revealing in this respect than the Breitbart video) because enlightenment era natural rights theory (reversing an eons old trend) switches that order to: your rights as an individual trump your rights as a member of a group.

  • me likey||

    ^^

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    "Social justice" is one of those words that progressives love to flash like some Louis Vuitton handbag, and almost always makes my skin crawl. As far as I'm concerned, "social justice" is just a shorter way of saying "opposite of actual justice".

  • CatoTheElder||

    Fred, didn't you also present an unassailable argument that "social justice ... does not belong to the category of error but to that of nonsense, like the term 'a moral stone.'"

  • Jeffersonian||

    For me, when I hear it I reach simultaneously for my wallet and my pistol.

  • Sevo||

    "She even bolds it, just incase you missed it."
    And she gets busted for it in the comments:
    "You wrote: "My own belief is that when it comes to the typical child, however, homeschooling does not comport with crucial social justice values related to investing in the common good..."
    You could easily replace "homeschooling" with "gay parenting" and "social justice" with "moral." There is as much evidence for either case.
    Opposing homeschooling for social reasons is not one bit different, intellectually, than opposing gay marriage for similar reasons. It's an inherently conservative philosophy."

  • hah!||

    "Opposing homeschooling for social reasons is not one bit different, intellectually, than opposing gay marriage for similar reasons. It's an inherently conservative philosophy."

    That is complete bullshit, at least by the current use of the word "conservative". Your assertion fails in another as well - insisting on a societally approved value set to be administered by all parents to their children is not the same as advocating a particular form of a socially defined institution like marriage.

  • ||

    insisting on a societally approved value set to be administered by all parents to their children is not the same as advocating a particular form of a socially defined institution like marriage.

    I would say the former is much worse than the latter.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    social justice values

    Definition, please.

  • Liberals||

    We know it when we see it, and by God, we're going to make you live by it.

  • Arko||

    NOT EVEN CLOSE

  • wef||

    you will get tired and wander away, yet again

  • wef||

    so a power-worshiping buttinski and scold doesn't like the baby-producing hippies who want to avoid big-daddy, establishment schools....and so what?

    why give this meddler and sterile prude the time of day?

  • SIV||

    These people are adorable!

    We were told that the whole point of public school was to dumb down the children and turn them into compliant workers – to brainwash them and indoctrinate them into this godless way of thinking.”

    "Fear too much government intervention in their lives"

    “When the school bus would come by, my youngest brother would go, ‘There goes the prison bus.’

    “How would you like to get stuck in a building with no light – and secular, godless, atheist teachers for seven hours of the day without even being able to see your parents or go out to play?” As a result, she says, “My brothers were terrified of the public schools.”

    They sound like the best sort of citizens. The anti-state kind.

  • wef||

    The best citizens are the pro-state kind.

  • wef||

    Sorry, sorry -

    The best subjects are the pro-state kind.

    (I was still showing a bit of atavistic, residual independence there for a moment.)

  • Ryan||

    and secular, godless, atheist teachers

    Were the teachers also redundant?

  • ||

    You must complete all slurs in triplicate.

  • killazontherun||

    Just today I saw the neighbor kid walking home as I was going home for lunch, and I asked him what was up with him being out of school, 'Early release. Got propelled for good behavior.' was his answer.

  • killazontherun||

    'propelled?!?', I saw that as an option (turned off the damn auto), avoided it, and it latched onto the sentence anyway.

  • Why ask why?||

    Is Honky Injun off his meds or did his brain finally jump the fucking shark?

  • Bingo||

    Ramping up into her manic phase again.

  • Why ask why?||

    He's a she?

    Forgive my ignorance in not giving her the proper respect she so obviously deserves!

    Here goes...

    TITS OR GTFO!!!

  • Arko||

    FORK!

  • Sevo||

    Why ask why?|3.14.12 @ 10:10PM|#
    "He's a she?"

    Opinions vary on the question, but what doesn't vary is the presumption that feeding vermin results in vermin shit.

  • protip||

    calling it vermin shit does not seem to get rid of it any more than responding to it.

  • Sevo||

    If I understand your comment (and that ain't easy), calling it anything doesn't get rid if it.
    Responding to it, OTOH, encourages it.

  • SIV||

    Damn good post Miss LucyStag.

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    Thanks, friend.

  • me likey||

    I'll second that.

  • me likey||

    I feel that I should provide some context. Usually when I post on H&R, I'm a real prick so when I say I like a posted article, I really mean it.

  • LilDebbie||

    Funny how she fails to bring up the MILLIONS of schoolchildren neglected by public schools.

    I was trying to think of something terrible to say about her but then found out she beat me to it.

    Lucy, I think we just might be able to write this one off as a desperate, starving concern troll best left for dead.

  • Bingo||

    Wow, a 6 page article filled with nothing but whining.

    I’m among America’s brightest and best educated. If you came across me in a social setting, you might mistake me for a middle- or upper-middle-class person.

    Something tells me that wallowing in self-pity isn't a trait common to those income brackets.

  • Drax the Destroyer||

    And where does this Bitch-troll criticize governments for mainly (single-handedly?) making school so unafforable? Nowhere is that even tangentially discussed in 6 fucking pages? Thought so.

    Sorry honey. You got fucked by the state and life. Getting sick is terrible, but it happens all the time. I'm surprised you couldn't have rode on your parent's insurance like the Obamessiah has allotted for everyone till 26 or at least till you were out of college like most insurance used to cover. And you fucked up. You majored in something any bright high schooler with 9 free weeks and an internet connection could burn through on a case of red bull. Suck it up, learn some computer code and/or become a hooker.

  • ||

    Best Alt-Text ever. Thanks Lucy.

  • Trent||

    LMAO. Nice find!

  • alt-text Master||

    Truly, Lucy, your progress in alt-text has been exemplary. You are ready to advance beyond your blue belt status. Soon your alt-text will cleave stone blocks.

  • sounds real good||

    I also thought it was mighty fine.

  • sounds real good||

    I also thought it was mighty fine.

  • anarch||

    the percentage of truancy convictions (possibly the best measure of educational neglect at present)

    Uh, no. No, it's not.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    "We became so isolated because the Quiverfull lifestyle was so overwhelming we didn’t have time or energy for socialization."

    I suspect you found the time for *some* socialization, if you know what I mean.

  • 4chan||

    I don't give a fuck about homeschooling, but it is a bit interesting that students who homeschool still want to and go to college, the ultimate destination of what 'school' is.

  • wareagle||

    until there's a home college, what is their alternative for getting a degree? Anyway, lots of colleges out there these days besides State U.

  • Bingo||

    You can actually get an entire degree program + lectures from a bunch of places online right now. The only thing you won't get is a piece of paper. There's a few startups out there that are playing with the idea, Khan Academy being just one of them.

    https://www.coursera.org/landing/hub.php is another one to check out.

  • protip||

    A PHD in YOUTUBE!

  • killazontherun||

    Amazing how you turned having absolutely no point into a sarcastic remark. Actually, that is SOP for progressives, so I lied about being amazed.

  • 834573954||

    it is a bit interesting that students who homeschool still want to and go to college

    One of the primary goals of homeschoolers is to inculcate in their children a particular worldview so that when they are inevitably exposed to other views, they will not accept them without question.

    Given what is taught in university these days, I don't see the homeschooler agenda as worthy of condemnation.

  • Sevo||

    Yes, and they also attend home-'school'. Did you have a point?

  • Coeus||

    How in the hell did this cop not get charged with rape? He fucking admitted to it.

    http://www.dreamindemon.com/20.....ther-does/

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    "Rohrig was put on paid leave from the Orange Police Department and charged with sexual assault in the first degree and criminal impersonation."

  • Officer Rohrig's Mom||

    When I told you boys you should share everything, I didn't mean...I mean, gross!

  • Coeus||

    He got 90 days house arrest. If that's possible on the books in that state for rape, they need new fucking books.

  • ||

    90 days house arrest?

    and he wasn't a female teacher schtupping a kid?

  • Coeus||

    Nope, mis-identification leading to full blown forcible rape. He's a member of another coddled class (except for that one guy that denfenstrated his girlfriend and got a 20% longer sentence).

  • ||

    except AS USUAL you misrepresent the story.

    he was CHARGED with first degree sex assault.

    however, he PLED no contest to first-degree unlawful restraint and criminal impersonation

    THAT charge ... it is not unusual for the probation and house arrest

    y, know. FACTS? coeus.

    most likely, he was offered the plea deal because the evidence was pretty weak on the charge he was arrested for, and likelihood of conviction was small

    but, in brief, the 90 days HA and long probation is ENTIRELY consistent with what he pled guilty to

    case facts. how do those work?

  • Coeus||

    most likely, he was offered the plea deal because the evidence was pretty weak on the charge he was arrested for, and likelihood of conviction was small

    Say it with me: he fucking admitted to it. Before the trial. To his brother at least, and probably to others as well. He got a sweetheart deal and you know it.

  • ||

    say it with you. he allegedly admitted to it ,etc. it may or may not even be admissible.

    he did NOT get a sweetheart deal, but that's the difference between you and me, i actually understand how done dozens of rape investigations, etc. and see what actually happens

    i know that what prosecutors charge with initially and what they can prove are often two very different things

    also, in my entire career i have never seen a successful rape prosecution based on the stop-in-the-middle-changed-my-mind scenario

    very rare. iow, since she initially consented (was wet etc) you don't see the physical injuries you see from conventional forcible rape and juries generally don't buy the "i consented, but i changed my mind" routine

    you never even mentioned the plea . you just said that 90 days house arrest was lenient for rape. which it would be, but that's NOT the charge he pled to

  • Coeus||

    say it with you. he allegedly admitted to it ,etc. it may or may not even be admissible.

    There is a text message to back it up. You have multiple confessions, and text records. You're also purposly misrepresenting the case (like always, remember when you kept saying that ex-NFL player hit a cop with a beer bottle when it was pointed put to you multiple times it was a can).

    She didn't change her mind halfway through. This is the same as someone sneaking into a hotel room when the guy's in the bathroom and starting to screw a chick in the dark. It's rape from the get-go. It just turned into forcible rape halfway through.

    I'll give you that she might not have wanted to go through with a trial, but that's the only reason it wouldn't have come to that. And given what I've seen, I'd say the likelyhood rests with a sweetheart deal.

  • Bingo||

    Oh I'm sure any other guy would have totally been offered the same deal, dunphy. Totally.

  • Coeus||

    Also note that he got 4 years of paid leave.

    Public sector unions are a cancer.

  • ||

    what i'm noting is that YET AGAIN, you lie/mislead... never mentioning that he got 90 days for UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT, etc. ***Not*** the sex assault I that he was arrested for. this is SO fucking par for the course for rape prosecutions, but it helps you feed your mythology about the double standard. iow, you ignore the case facts, the details about WHAT HE PLED TO, and if you had any experience dealing with rape prosecutions you would realize this. ignorance has its benefits. it allows you to continue to wallow in your fantasy world - one where the "stop in the middle" prosecutions always result in a conviction. lol

  • Coeus||

    what i'm noting is that YET AGAIN, you lie/mislead... never mentioning that he got 90 days for UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT, etc. ***Not*** the sex assault I that he was arrested for.

    Your lack of reading comprehension in no way indicates that I'm lying.

    I said he got 90 days for rape. He committed rape. He got 90 days house arrest. Has anyone ever been convicted of "rape". Or is it "Sexual Assault, first degree ect..?

    You pull this shit all the time. If a bunch of cops beat a guy to death, and we call them murderous thugs, you hop in and proclaim something like "they were only convicted of [blank], like that doesn't make them murderous thugs. They're still murderous thugs, moron. And this guy still committed rape and got 90 days house arrest.

    Now quit doing that shit.

  • ||

    you aren;t sure because you don't live in the real world. how many rape investigations have you investigated. talk to a fucking prosecutor and get a clue about the difficulties of proof in a case like this, especially the "i initially consented but i changed my mind" cases, NONE of which i have ever seen successfully prosecuted

    you also don't know if how desirous the victim was. i see COUNTLESS rape prosecutions where such plea deals are offered based on the victim just wanting the thing to go away.

    again, you operate from a position of ignorance. rape prosecutions ARE hard, even given GOOD case facts, which based on what the article said, are hardly present here

    but keep believing in your fantasies that help support your "he got a sweetheart deal because he was a cop" bullshit. that's easy to do when, as in this case, you ignore how rape prosecutions work

  • Coeus||

    talk to a fucking prosecutor and get a clue about the difficulties of proof in a case like this

    Do you think if you keep lying about the case it will make it true? Johnnie Cochran you're not.

    It was rape before she found out who he was. It just changed to forcible rape.

    No different than sneaking into someone's room in the dark and starting to fuck his wife while he's in the bathroom.

    you also don't know if how desirous the victim was. i see COUNTLESS rape prosecutions where such plea deals are offered based on the victim just wanting the thing to go away.

    This is the only valid point you've made. But you buried it in so much bullshit, you're credibility is shot. Gonna have to ask you to cite it.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Shorter dunphy: Cops are always right and never wrong. Now get on your knees plebs, and start servicing your masters.

  • ||

    except it wasn't rape. you lie/mislead as usual

    he pled no contest to a much lower offense as noted in my other post

    USUALLY< that happens when the case is weak as fuck for the charge the person was arrested for, which was rape (first degree sex assault)

    so, no 90 days plus probation is not AT ALL UNUSUAL for a first offender charged with WHAT HE PLED TO

    hth

  • Coeus||

    He fucking admitted to it.

  • Bingo||

    No see it wasn't him holding her face down with a pillow and forcibly having sex with her because he took a plea deal! Therefore it wasn't rape because the plea deal says it wasn't rape. Mind you, normal people would never have gotten the same plea deal, but who care! Law supersedes morality, dontcha know.

    You see, our pal dunphy is the production prototype for Robocop. The letter of the law is all that matters, and no deviations from his programming are acceptable.

  • Coeus||

    Anytime he starts exasperating you with his deliberate obtuseness, cut him some slack. I don't think it's deliberate. He's made 2 claims on this board that should tell you a lot:

    1) The vast majority of laws are just

    2) He's a libertarian

  • ||

    and you repeatedly make bogus claims like in this case where you claimed he got 90 days house arrest for rape, when in fact he got it for a much lesser charge based on a plea deal

    you have no fucking idea how rape prosecutions work

    i wish you would just FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE educate yourself. present the case facts to an attorney who specializes in these cases, and they will tell you what i know from a position of knowledge (vs. your ignorance). that nothing in the fact pattern suggests a double standard.

    i deal with facts and reality. you deal with your bigoted uneducated feelings.

    epi was at least honest enough to admit that... once.

  • Coeus||

    and you repeatedly make bogus claims like in this case where you claimed he got 90 days house arrest for rape, when in fact he got it for a much lesser charge based on a plea deal

    He raped someone and got 90 days house arrest. You disputing any of that? No? Good, now quit making shit up to be offend about. You're playing gotcha with shadows. It's embarassing.

  • ||

    bingo, the issue isn't what happened, it's what the prosecutor can sell to a jury

    such plea deals are COMMON in rape cases, based on what wee know from articles, this case would be difficult as fuck to prove, and we don't even know how desirous the victim was to go through a trial, which is a very important decision factor for prosecutors. when the victim is nondesirous they will almost always offer a plea deal, for example.

    likely, a tactical decision was made based on evidence.

  • Psychic Octopus||

    Except when the victim is one day short of 18 years of age. In that case, off to the gallows the accused goes, even if the victim doesn't want anything to do with the case.

  • Gojira||

    Since the vast, vast majority of cases end up with pleas, are you saying the vast, vast majority of cases are "weak as fuck" and unlikely to result in conviction?

  • ||

    I'm one of those who didn't do a very good job homeschooling. I'll admit it. And yet, my oldest who was only homeschooled has gone on to community college and work and is doing fine. My younger two are in public high school and doing better. The second to the oldest... I sort of wish she'd always have gone to school simply because then her failure to cooperate in her own education would be someone else's fault and would not appear to be mine.

    I think if I had it to do again I'd either go with private church school, or if I could stay home, I'd do what some friends did and homeschool for middle school only, sort of rotating through the kids as they hit that age.

  • Sevo||

    Synova|3.14.12 @ 10:43PM|#
    "I'm one of those who didn't do a very good job homeschooling. I'll admit it..."

    I'll take you at your word, and congratulate you on your honesty and concern for your kids.
    But did you ever see a public school teacher admit the same? And fire him/herself?
    Did you ever see a public school teacher suggest the kid could do better in home school?
    You've already done better than those folks.

  • ||

    Oh, and for those who don't believe it...

    My youngest daughter's middle school *someone* called CPS after an IEP meeting and told them that I was on drugs.

    I am not making this up.

    As near as I can tell what I *did* was, when they explained that how they determine if a child has a learning disability is they compare her IQ score to her performance. And I laughed, because I knew darn well that my child would score in the 120 to 125 range (which she did). *Apparently* laughing at this was the wrong thing to do, never-mind it was d*mn funny.

    So... the next morning I'm woken by a social worker on the phone saying I need to bring my kids into his office.

  • killazontherun||

    You didn't have the right, respectful attitude when addressed by your superiors. That will teach you to know your place.

  • ||

    I still don't know my place. ;)

    The thing is, I only bring it up (really) because so many people like to think that the scare-stories are exaggerations. But the truth of it is, that parents have little power once their child is "in the system." The high school my youngest are in, huge mega-district (5th largest in the US, last I checked), has been great. It really has. But the truth of it is that this is just luck and if you happen into a situation that is bad, you're screwed and so are your children.

    As others have said... there is a lot of interest in supposedly protecting kids from their home-lives, but when is a public school ever held accountable for anything?

  • ||

    When they realized that my husband would be dealing with them 100% of the time without me (I refused to speak to anyone at the school) my daughter suddenly stopped having so many problems.

    See... her teacher was afraid of men. She'd have a nervous episode if she had to deal with a father.

    I am *not* making this up.

  • Sevo||

    Again, taking you at your word: This sounds like the sort of story that needs some exposure. But an anonymous post on a random web site isn't going to do that.
    You might contact the author of this story; she's obviously sympathetic to the travails home-schoolers go through.
    Hey, Lucy!

  • ||

    Another "progressive" out there scared of minorities. Hard to see much difference between this and any other fear of a minority group.

    Government is the solution if you're worried about some minority or fringe group doing something bad that the majority can stop.

  • SPLC||

    Be sure to donate!

  • to the other SPLC||

  • the other other SPLC||

    Stop hogging the acronyms!

    - Stupid Progessive Liberal Caucus

  • Tim||

    Until we can have the guts to say that this is mine and it doesn't matter how well I manage it we will never be able to stand up to these people.

  • Coeus||

    Further evidence that public sector unions are a cancer:


    An East Chicago police officer — caught on video fondling his genitals and making lewd comments toward the victim of a burglary — has been suspended for six months, city records show.

    http://www.nwitimes.com/news/l.....1c318.html

  • Harvey Keitel||

    I don't see what the big deal is.

  • ||

    wwaaaaaahhhh public sector unions.

    coeus remains butthurt (when he;'s not a bald liar)

  • ||

    Wow Dunphy, you really are an asshole. Let me guess, the guy followed procedure when he fondled himself and this is a justified fondling. Procedure was followed, but if it hadn't, you would think that a small vacation and a letter of reprimand was enough punishment, right?
    Please die in a fire with all your progeny and fellow gang members.

  • ||

    Out here in the Private Sector, findling your genitals and making lewd comments while on the job is an on-the-spot termination.

    There's probably a lot of places where fondling your genitals and making lewd comments in public would get you fired regardless of whether you were on the job.

    So, yeah, fuck the double standard and the pubsec unions who enforce it.

  • iamtheeviltwin||

    Guy here at my workplace got fired because one of the Veeps of the company found him masturbating in the server room. Guy was out the door within the hour. (After he was told to clean up, wash his hands, and report to his manager)

  • Coeus||

    What the hell? You guys don't have doors on your restroom stalls?

    (Though I suppose I don't have very high moral ground here, as I've had sex in a server room before).

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Tonight, you.

  • Coeus||

    Damn dunphy. Too pissed to form a cogent comment? Is it because you're zealously guarding your fondling entitlement? Or is it because I reminded everyone you said this:

    He's made 2 claims on this board that should tell you a lot:

    1) The vast majority of laws are just

    2) He's a libertarian
  • ||

    I jsut dont get those people at all man.

    www.World-Anon.tk

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Wow... a whole, whopping *ten thousand* of these "Quiverfull" people.

    Shit, they could take over the whole country with those numbers. Better call in another Waco-style strike.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Shit, I just realized... no Tony or shrike posts in this entire thread.

    I hope this starts a trend, so we can have rational discussions for a change.

  • lame Tony||

    Why do liberatards object to ensuring that all children, even those from disadvantaged homes, receive a quality education?

  • Mr. FIFY||

    That was lame, but right in line with his thinking.

  • ||

    Yes, it's so much better to have a government school board brainwash our children. WTF.

  • 9475037543||

    I have witnessed the anecdotal evidence. My own cousin was a terrified mess in Phlly's public schools, unable to focus on learning. Her parents began homeschooling her and her whole attitude towards life changed from depressed and despondent to upbeat and optimistic. She is currently pursuing a PhD in biology.

    The daughter of a co-worker has a similar story in the making regarding her move from a public school to a private one.

  • Wolfgang Hurtzel||

    She remembers one Quiverfull leader saying, “If they can do mathematics perfectly but they have no morals, you have failed them.”

    I couldn't agree with Kristin Rawls' analysis more. What good is having a sound moral base when one is tasked with designing a better gas chamber?

  • outrage personified||

    And as I talk to more and more people who recount first-person stories of homeschool-related neglect, it becomes hard to write off what homeschool advocates would call “exceptions” simply as fringe outliers.

    Fringe outliers like school systems that fail to graduate even 50% of their charges and don't even produce graduates who are literate despite spending more money per student than almost any other government-run system in the world?

  • ||

    I always figured that the logic of the quiverfull sorts was wrong, not that having many children was a blessing, but that a person needed to leave it to God to decide on family size. I figured that He is capable of leading you through prayer, and that if you got it wrong, He was capable of subverting any contraceptive strategy you might follow, if He really wanted that child born and you'd messed up.

    Still admire them, though. If a family feels up to it, and a woman takes pregnancy well (not everyone does, but some women love it) I think that it's a beautiful thing and it makes me happy to see.

  • NOW||

    You will be punished for your heresy. Any women who doesn't place her career above all else in her life is letting down the sisterhood. Repent!

  • ||

    We were told that the whole point of public school was to dumb down the children and turn them into compliant workers

    Umm... Isn't that true?

  • CatoTheElder||

    Not really.

    Mayor Rudy Giuliani put it best:

    "The main purpose of the system is not to educate children.There is a more important, more overriding purpose, and it exists in the laws, in the agreements and contracts and everything else. [Its main purpose] is to protect the jobs of the people in the system."

    Of course, he wanted to restore public education to its primary mission:

    "Schools exist in America and have always existed to train responsible citizens of the United States of America."

    In the same speech the mayor explained that "Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do." The US needs really, really good public schools to achieve that level of brainwashing. It needs a national curriculum and compulsory attendance to assure universality of the brainwashing.

  • SoCal Refugee||

    Just ignore that the "quiverful" lifestyle is way more popular among all those diverse Mexicans who will enrich our culture than among white families. The difference, of course, is that their spawn go to school at public expense.

  • ||

    I homeschool. It's exhausting. But after my son's 3rd grade teacher suggested we drug him so he could sit still for his standardized tests, I figured fuck it. My children are godless smart asses. They can read, too. It's pretty awesome.

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    I wish there was more available to secular homeschoolers. I'm an atheist who wants to homeschool, but I'm worried about how I'm going to go about it. The internet has been a big help, but I want to know more about you.

  • Kochtopussy||

    Good article, but kind of moot since it's written by a homeschooler. You know how crazy those people are.

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    So crazy!

  • Audrey the Liberal||

    Atheist! Libertarian! Homeschooler! Crazy squared.

  • iamtheeviltwin||

    Obviously you were a Public School student...Atheist, Libertarian, Home Schooler is Crazy Cubed.

  • AlmightyJB||

    I bet that chicks not wearing any panties under her jumper.

  • Lucy Steigerwald||

    Save it for morning links, dude.

  • Robert||

    I didn't read the article or even the piece above, except to note that it had something to do with the difficulty of teaching one's children. When I did, a thought occurred to me:

    Imagine how difficult it was to teach your kids before language was invented. We experience that condition with the very young, of course, before they can understand words, but imagine if they never grew out of that condition because there was no such thing as words yet. You had to continue to teach them the way you do with babies.

    And even yet with that difficulty, it must've been done, for tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of years, because we're here. So now, with language, it should be a piece of cake.

  • oncogenesis||

    described schools as "minimum security prisons."

    In my school district it is "policy" that the police are invited into the high schools at least twice a year to perform suspicionless searches, complete with drug-sniffing dogs. During these searches, the schools are put in a state of lockdown, meaning no entrance or exit from the building. In short, the place literally becomes a prison.

  • Coeus||

    Yeah, I'd say medium security. Most schools have more fences and barbed wire than a minimum security.

  • Rick Sincere||

    I know it's not a random sample, but the two homeschooling mothers I know personally both have doctorates in education.

    Would they still qualify as anti-social yahoos?

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