David Frum on Jared Loughner's Reefer Madness

Yesterday Jesse Walker noted David Frum's plea that we not let all the talk about gun control following the Tucson massacre distract us from the importance of drug control in preventing such horrible crimes. In a post headlined "Did Pot Trigger Giffords Shooting?," Frum wrote:

The Tucson shooting should remind us why we regulate [sic] marijuana.

Jared Lee Loughner, the man held as the Tucson shooter, has been described by those who know as a "pot smoking loner."

He had two encounters with the law, one for possession of drug paraphanalia [sic].

We are also learning that Loughner exhibited signs of severe mental illness, very likely schizophrenia.

The connection between marijuana and schizophrenia is both controversial and complicated. The raw association is strong:

  • Schizophrenics are twice as likely to smoke marijuana as non-schizophrenics.
  • People who smoke marijuana are twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who do not smoke.

But is correlation causation?

Frum then summarizes research suggesting that pot smoking hastens or aggravates symptoms in some schizophrenics. Since he has already diagnosed Loughner from a distance, he thinks it's pretty clear that the answer to his headline question is yes.

In other words, Frum says marijuana prohibition is necessary to prevent mass shootings like this one, which it manifestly failed to do. I guess he's suggesting such crimes would be more common if pot were legal, but he could be wrong about that: One possible explanation for the association Frum cites is that schizophrenics "self-medicate" with marijuana. Consistent with that theory, one of Loughner's closest friends told Mother Jones that "after Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, 'his theories got worse....After he quit, he was just off the wall.'" Maybe pot prevents more mass murders than it precipitates, in which case the Tucson shootings should remind us why we need to legalize marijuana. I wonder how Frum would react to that suggestion.

Wild speculation is fun (and versatile), but let's not lose sight of Frum's implicit premise that the government should strive to make the world as schizophrenic-safe as possible. If schizophrenics might react badly to something, Frum seems to think, that possibly bad influence should be banned. Sound familiar? More on this sort of reasoning in my column tomorrow.

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  • ||

    If schizophrenics might react badly to something, Frum seems to think, that possibly bad influence should be banned.

    Well, if pot should be banned because Loughner reacted badly to it, then:

    Democratic Representatives should be banned, because apparently Loughner reacted badly to one of them, wouldn't you say?

  • ||

    Well, it turns out a very close friend of the shooter said he was into smoking Salvia! What is Salvia? It is a type of sage that is very Hallucinogenic. I lived in Hawaii and did counseling, and I had a couple of clients who began using Salvia, and one client told me about one experience he had. He said he Astro-Projected out of his body and was in a room up in the Universe surrounded by Friendly Aliens. They were Prophetic Beings, so he believed, and told him many things of Great Knowledge. He truly believed it all really happened. Both clients who used Salvia became more and more disconnected with reality to the point they both believed they could manipulate molecular structure and walk through walls, turn rocks into marshmallow's or pillow's but would not do so when requested.

    This Salvia would take anyone who is Normal and has a good sense of reality to the point that they believe that "Others" talk to them and it is REAL........ Depending on the individual and their beliefs or mindset, the manifestations of behavior will differ. Example: If someone has a deep love for life and all that's in it, it will manifest a very outward expression of just that. If someone's head is full of a World of cruel people who do harm, they may act as this individual did. Just as Alcohol does to many people, this Salvia magnifies ones mindset but is backed up with Hallucinations that the individual believes are real and prophetic, that's the part that is very scary to me as a Counselor....that the Hallucinations are Prophetic beings!!!

  • Warty||

    But is correlation causation?

    Oh shit, I know this one! The answer is yes. Right?

  • Climate Scientists||

    Finally, someone gets it!

  • Michael Scott||

    You, however, don't.

  • ||

    If schizophrenics might react badly to something, Frum seems to think, that possibly bad influence should be banned

    I have it on good authority that schizophrenics react badly to David Frum columns--for instance, Warty gets hives from them.

    Ban them!

  • Warty||

    I define hives as one who gets hives.

    You tell me that I get hives.

    Therefore I am hives.

  • ||

    "I had favorite hives: aquagenic, cholinergic, adrenergic"

  • ||

    i once had a schizophrenic light an encampment on fire because he found the pr0n in somebody's property.

    then, he went fucking nuts (ok, he already was but...) and got extremely violent when a female officer attempted to talk to him.

    thus, we need to ban women and pr0n. they clearly set schizos off.

  • ||

    Krugman columns make me want to go on a shooting spree.

  • Almanian||

    NOW we see the violence inherent in the system!

    Sheriff Dunderhead! Here's yer instigator, right here!

    HATE SPEECH!!!!!1!!eleven!!!

  • Spiny Norman||

    Congress has it covered. They're going to make it illegal to carry a gun near high-profile government officials.

    Defined as members of Congress, I suppose.

  • Almanian||

    Well, there you go! That'll fix....something....

  • ||

    They have to protect themselves from the proles. I mean, they are more important than the rest of us, right?

  • ||

    Great if they had that law in 1964 they could've arrested the guy onthe grassy knol. Oh wait.

  • SIV||

    Nov 22 1963

    The JBS and hard right of Dallas, enraged by Kennedy's Catholicism, comopolitan lifestyle, and plans to immediately institute World Peace and Equality created a climate of HATE using metaphors and surveyor symbols which caused a confused young progressive to "snap" and do their dirty work for them. Oswald was the lone gunman, there was no conspiracy, just the climate of uncivil hate and intolerance for the progressive future we were cheated out of with the death of our King.

  • ||

    I thought it was grammar control that triggered him.

    I'm still confused: did Loughner take exception to bad grammar or feel subjugated by proper grammar?

  • sevo||

    "I'm still confused: did Loughner take exception to bad grammar or feel subjugated by proper grammar?"

    From what I read, he was confused about that.

  • Almanian||

    Grammar Control would be an excellent name for a band.

    Probably a douchey, Flock of Duran Jagoogoo type band - but a good name for a band like that.

  • ||

    You have some kind of problem with Duran Duran, buddy?

  • Almanian||

    Yes

  • ||

    Duran Duran: the first talentless boy band.

  • Neu Mejican||

    the MOST talentless boy band

  • Law Breaker||

    Pot affects people in different ways. It makes me more generous and easy-going, whereas it turns an acquaintance of mine into a raving lunatic. Give him a few beers with it and he becomes a monster. All psychoactive drugs have the potential to turn a normal person into a paranoid schizophrenic, at least temporarily. Whether it exacerbates a chronic condition is debatable, but people don't take drugs to remain the same. They want to become abnormal, to escape reality for a while. Is this healthy behavior? Probably not.

  • ||

    while i can agree with your general point, my experience with people on pot is this - they are very very rarely violent, etc.

    alcohol (at different levels) really can encourage violence/lack of impulse control/recklessness.

    pot just doesn't really work that way, ime. i don't get DV assaults where somebody gets stoned and beats the crap out of their partner. whereas i see it with stimulants on occasion, and frequently with alcohol.

    i've never got a toxicology back on a person caught driving recklessly fast who had solely mj in their system. alcohol? sure. meth? yes

    mj seems predominantly to encourage people to eat cheezy poofs, laff at dumb jokes, think (what they think are) deep thoughts, etc.

    i'll agree that schizophrenics can react in very different ways to all sorts of drugs. they are schizophrenics. there are all sorts of issues going on there.

    however, given alcohol or pot ABUSE (iow people who are using to excess and/.or feel the need to get blasted etc. vs. using recreationally and being more in control) i'd take a pothead over a drunk any fucking day of the week.

  • Brother Wolf||

    Schizophrenics are usually NOT violent. Inducing psychosis is not inducing violence

  • ||

    i never said schizophrenics are USUALLY violent, nor did I imply that. the literature is pretty clear that what you say is true.

    however, i disproportionately deal with the schizophrenics (and people in general) who ARE violent

    if anybody thought i was implying that schizophrenics are prone to violence - i was not.

  • Brother Wolf||

    Ok, I didn't mean to accuse you.

  • ||

    fair enuf. i just didn't want people to think i was falsely maligning schizophrenics.

    cheers

  • Fuck off ||

    dunphy, I was curious about Loughner's prosecution because of his letter, and facebook messages. They indicate planning, and acknowledgement of culpability.

    In your experience, do schizophrenics have the "skill" to plan, or do they reach a psychotic cycle and commit all their acts within that time bubble.

  • ||

    a (nonmedicated) schizoprenic imo and ime (disclaimer: i went to grad school for counseling psychology) are GS (Generally speaking) not going to plan complex crimes like intricate financial crimes etc. they certainly can succeed as a serial killer, etc. although that's less likely if they are in the system and with modern DNA technology. schizophrenia is GS characterized by disorganized speech and thinking. that doesn't mean they can't plan

    an advantage for a schizophrenic is that there crimes are generally not motivated by some close connection to the victim. most homicides - the killer and the victim know each other, and motive etc. can point towards a suspect.

    when you got a guy like albert salva (the boston strangler) who was a schizophrenic, you get a very successful serial killer

  • Ted S.||

    They want to become abnormal, to escape reality for a while. Is this healthy behavior? Probably not.

    Considering what our self-anointed betters consider reality, I'd say it's not unhealthy behavior to want to escape reality.

  • Suki||

    "after Loughner apparently gave up drugs and booze, 'his theories got worse....After he quit, he was just off the wall.'"

    I have heard of this before. Something about when they were self medicating they were feeling "normal enough" to function. Instead of coming off completely, they need real medication (needed it the whole time). Something like that.

  • ||

    A long time ago, my uncle was told to stop drinking. He developed bad asthma and the doctor put him back on the sudz.

  • ||

    honey, more asthma medicine!

  • ||

    The role narcotics played in this crime definitely not being discussed enough, nor is the role of violent, nihilistic heavy metal to which this murderer listened to.

    His favorite song had a chorus of "Let the Bodies hit the floor, let the bodies hit the floor".

    Downright chilling.

  • ||

    The fact such violent music is considred "middle of the road" is even more chilling and shows how far the Cultural Marxists have degraded American society.

  • kevin_hunt||

    It all started with Elvis and his pelvis.

    Damn whippersnappers..

  • Suki||

    The work of that band is so misunderstood. It is about the famous mosh pits at Tea Party rallies.

  • Karma W||

    I am a forty year old mom who listens to that song and has it on my Ipod list. You should try Tantric, Coming Undone.

    Anyhoo, "Downright Chilling". Really? I think the terrible forced rhyme found in songs by the Plain White Ts is downright chilling.

  • BakedPenguin||

    You should try Tantric, Coming Undone.

    That was okay, but I didn't see how it was a huge step up in psychic or sonic violence from Drowning Pool.

    How about GG Allin's I Kill Everything I Fuck?

    Or pretty much anything else he wrote, or did. That boy was ill.

  • Nahh!||

    but he looks so normal!

  • Karma W||

    And OMG,

    DOWNRIGHT CHILLING

    Should be band name...

  • Almanian||

    Right after "Morphine Induced Haze"

  • Karma W||

    I liked the hidden MJ reference....

  • Karma W||

    And speaking of chilling Drowing Pool youtube viddoes...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uguXNL93fWg

  • Almanian||

    That was downright CHILLING

  • Progressive Guy||

    You know what metal song always creeped me out? "Don't Tread on Me"

    I mean, what's that all about? Anti-government rhetoric? Isn't that what set this guy off in the first place? I can't believe they haven't put Lars Ulrich in prison yet.

  • ||

    Hardly "downright chilling". It's a middle-of-the-road, meathead song.

    What about the gun, TEA?

  • Dude||

    Heavy metal music makes me want to kill heavy metal musicians.

  • Rather||

    lol

  • ||

    Read my blog.

  • fuck off||

    heller

  • ||

    What about it?

    The vast, vast majority of people are responsible with their Second Amendment rights.

  • Eric||

    Uh... the vast, vast majority of people are responsible in listening to music.

    Q: Is there a single activity that you disagree with (morally or otherwise) that you wouldn't ban? Because I have the feeling that that list would be much, much shorter than the list of things you disagree with that you would ban (or apply government scrutiny towards).

    As the saying goes, me today, you tomorrow.

  • ||

    )posting in the correct thread)

    The fact such violent music is considred "middle of the road" is even more chilling and shows how far the Cultural Marxists have degraded American society.

  • ||

    I feel exactly the same way about Meatloaf.

  • ||

    i feel the same about celine dion. but not drowning pool.

    well, 2 out of 3 aint bad

  • vousy zuřivosti||

    I feel the same way about Ke$ha

  • cynical||

    +1

  • SIV||

    Worst...troll...ever...

  • SIV||

    Is their anything lower than F-?

  • -||

    G?

  • Barry White||

    word

  • Brother Wolf||

    Watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVJxCLcU6Wc

    now, do you see why he calls drowning pool's a "middle of the road meathead song?"

    that is, if "middle of the road" is median, not mean

  • Brother Wolf||

    Watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVJxCLcU6Wc

    now, do you see why he calls drowning pool's a "middle of the road meathead song?"

    that is, if "middle of the road" is median, not mean

  • BakedPenguin||

    Ha ha. Or maybe some Discordance Axis or Agoraphobic Nosebleed.

  • Spur||

    I didn't know Jurgen Habermas was in a band.

  • tr0n||

    I heard he accidentally walked into a Tucson Spencer's immediately before the shooting. All the black-lit Sublime posters pushed his schizo mind over the edge.

  • ||

    Oh, and the name of this heavy metal band is "The Drowning Pool", even more violent , nihilistic imagery.

  • ||

    He was mentally ill, TEA. Who the fuck cares what music he listened to? That song is played all the time on the local, dopey whitetrashrock station.

  • BakedPenguin||

    The Virginia Tech shooter was obsessed with (definitely non-metal) Collective Soul's Shine. The repeated chorus is "Heaven, let your light shine down."

    Clearly, we need to ban any songs with references to heaven.

  • Bradley||

    Or ban Collective Soul.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Can we outlaw Wagner?

  • Brother Wolf||

    I can't smoke weed. It causes a serious brain chemistry problem and puts me in a paranoid schizophrenic state for up to a week after. It's a really horrific experience. I realize that it is not that way for most people... but I really don't think it's good for anyone.

  • ||

    That's sort of what Excstasy does to me.

    2 hours of fun, followed by two days of horrifying depression, social anxiety, and generalized paranoia.

  • Brother Wolf||

    I like to call it: "existential paranoia" but, I was high when I thought of that :)

  • Law Breaker||

    A friend of mine who gave up pot called his experiences with the drug "psychotic episodes." He much preferred coke and heroin.

  • ||

    Yeah, once I got into this state where it was like borderline auditory hallucinations. My mind was just assembling random noises into people whispering shit about me in the other room. Just this barely audible whispering where you couldn't quite pick out the words.

    I'm pretty sure that if I had actually been able to fully construct whole sentances out of the noise, that would literally be what schizophrenia is like.

    It was pretty terrifying. And not just because I was feeling totally paranoid anyway.

  • Brother Wolf||

    Yeah, I think you're describing a schizophrenic episode, check this out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkB2CGL769o

  • TallDave||

    Nah, that's natural even when you're not high. The phenomenon is fairly well-documented, there was even a movie.

    Google EVP.

  • ||

    Hmm, I wonder if anyone has researched a link between EVP and schizophrenics auditory hallucinations.

  • ||

    It happened to me after a large dose of extra-hot black bean chipotle chili con carne. I was alarmed until my girlfriend pointed out that it was my stomach

  • ||

    The next day was bad too. It also burns on the way out.

  • ||

    +10 Laughed out loud.

  • ||

    I smoke all the damn time and it just makes me relaxed and insightful. I'm high right now! Really high! I've argued with people on this blog incredibly high. I've never even come close to a psychotic episode.

  • Paul||

    2 hours of fun, followed by two days of horrifying depression, social anxiety, and generalized paranoia.

    Sounds like a typical friday night for me. Minus the 2 hours of fun, of course.

  • Les||

    It's good for plenty of people. That's why it's so popular.

  • Paul||

    I can see this Tucson shooting as Democrats' 9/11.

  • Spur||

    Really?

    Perhaps if Rush flew an airplane into the Democrat Convention - this ain't no 9/11 - a minor tragedy and historical footnote at best when viewed from afar and with time.

  • Paul||

    Well, no.. not really. I'm being semi-snarky.

    First of all, as we know 9/11 was their 9/11. We didn't get the PATRIOT act and warrantless wiretapping without support from the Democrats. Hell, we didn't get the entire Airport security system nationalized without the Democrats.

    Secondly, I'm just really just talking about the sharp, clear and focussed reaction the liberal mediasphere/blogosphere/punditsphere has had with this thing.

    I mean, I don't put much of anything beneath any politician. But this has been so delicious to Democrats, it's been a bit breathtaking to behold.

  • Spur||

    Snark Accepted.

  • ||

    I cant see it.

    More like "Waving the Bloody Shirt" inside grandma's china closet.

    The mess can be cleaned up. But the family wont forget the incident.

  • ||

    Democrat: Noun Verb Tucson...

  • ||

    9-11? In contrast, I see it more like their Christmas.

    Now they can feel justified to guilt the nation into accepting the Fairness Doctrine, gun control, drug control, monitoring the internet for schizo nuts, restricting violent video games, increasing taxpayer-funded mental health services, cracking down on candidates and talk show hosts who "incite violence against the government" and surrounding each Congressperson with a small Secret Service army to protect them from raging Tea Partiers. I fully expect each bill to be named after a Loughner victim.

    They can make Rush, Palin and the Tea Party in general look complicit in murder by proxy. Giffords will likely replace Joe Biden as VP in 2012, so Obama will get reelected on the sympathy vote.

    After November, the Democrats now have the opportunity to guilt-trip independents who abandoned them into supporting these obviously crucial government programs and restrictions.

  • ||

    OMG.. When I was smoking pot I had lots of friends. I made a LOT more money then I do now. I Also didnt post things on the internet to strangers!

    Could I have been self medicating my way to success?

  • Spur||

    Like the pot I buy - Frum has No Labels...

  • Barack Obama||

    It's true, pot makes you homicidal. Why do you think I order all those Predator drone strikes?

  • ||

    hin it's actually quite plausible that marijuana may make some schizophrenics worse. It definitely has the effect on some people of increasing paranoia.

    But your last paragraph is correct. there's no reason to suggest that just because some substance has a bad influence on some, that it should be banned for everyone.

    Otherwise, we'd be back to prohibition to protect alocoholics. Or we'd be banning fatty foods to stop people from overeating.

  • ||

    And heck, the link between schizophrenics going violent and alcohol is far, far stronger than the extremely dubious pot link. Not that that made Prohibition less of a bad idea.

  • Cyto||

    Next you'll be telling me that it would be farcical to ban salt or trans-fats in the name of health. Reality has a "liberal" bias you know... banning pot or alcohol or fatty foods is just as reasonable as banning salt.

  • ||

    It IS farcical to ban salt or trans-fats. People have a right ot eat what they want.

  • TallDave||

    The government should pick out 2 or 3 foods that are good for you, and make everything else illegal.

  • ||

    Soylent Green for everyone.

  • -||

    Experiencing paranoia from smoking pot is so common, it's a cliche. And paranoia is not a normal state for healthy individuals. I could see how smoking pot could set off a seriously disturbed person, and how quitting after long habitual use could make things worse.

  • TallDave||

    Increased paranoia isn't necessarily a bad thing. If your prone to taking crazy risks, marijunana-induced risk aversion can normalize your behavior.

  • sevo||

    "Experiencing paranoia from smoking pot is so common, it's a cliche."

    Uh, that's not paranoia; it's worry about being busted.

  • -||

    Your odds of being busted while smoking pot are minimal, unless you're stupid.

  • Spoonman.||

    Dave's not here, man.

  • ||

    Maybe it should be mandatory treatment for workaholics.

  • ||

    Yes, I saw this when John Tabin at the American Spectator mocked it, noting that alcohol is much more closely related to violence anyway, and if that doesn't justify alcohol Prohibition (and it doesn't), then this surely wouldn't justify pot prohibition.

  • Southerner||

    That's more or less my point of view as well.

    I don't think pot is harmless--not much of anything you can smoke is--but I figure tobacco isn't harmless and we still allow people to smoke it, so you can't say it should be outlawed for that reason. Alcohol, likewise, lowers moral inhibitions, but we don't prohibit it. We also don't allow anyone to escape culpability for his actions while he's drunk, considering that if his inhibitions were the only thing keeping him from doing evil, he still has to have had those intentions to do evil things in the first place.

    Marijuana is a legitimate medicine for cancer patients and other people who have trouble with nausea and poor appetite; I've also heard that it might be good for easing the effects of rheumatism and other aches and pains common to old people. In view of its medicinal uses and its side effects (about the same as some of the other drugs available only by prescription), the sensible thing to me seems to be to have the law treat it like other prescription drugs such as morphine. There are some penalties for abusing prescription drugs, but most of them don't involve jail time and other stuff that would be worse than anything the drugs themselves do to the user.

    Of course, I'm inclined to believe you have a right to destroy yourself any way you please, as long as you don't make others a part of that destruction. Drink, smoke, eat, and screw yourself to death for all I care, but you shouldn't be allowed to encourage other people to do the same thing by pretending the things you're doing are harmless. Pot should neither be quite so illegal as it is now, nor any excuse for anyone's actions any more than alcohol is. Jared still deserves the death penalty for the murders he committed whether he was on drugs at the time or not.

  • Paul||

    Otherwise, we'd be back to prohibition to protect alocoholics. Or we'd be banning fatty foods to stop people from overeating.

    There's no irony in this statement.

  • ||

    Wait--I thought marijuana was already banned. Am I wrong about this? I didn't read the article--is he calling for an increased effort to prosecute marijuana trafficking and possession? Or is MJ legal in Arizona/North Mexico?

  • SIV||

    Forget Sarah Palin! ABC News just fingered the true culprit...salvia divinorum !!!

    Gabby's-Law! Gabby's Law! Gabby's Law!

  • CBS ||

    has apparently decided that there's a serious shortage of funding for state-assisted mental health services in AZ. That's the new angle!

    An angle which has nothing, I swear, nothing to do with Sharron Angle, nor Sarah Palin. Don't even imply that I've been implying that Sharron Angle or Sarah Palin had something to do with this. Sharron Angle didn't. Sarah Palin didn't. I swear, this most likely had nothing to do with Sharron Angle or Sarah Palin.

  • sevo||

    "CBS |1.11.11 @ 7:45PM|#
    has apparently decided that there's a serious shortage of funding for... [whatever simple-minded government action they can find for the latest "crises"]."

  • Spazmo||

    Even if the state had funded the shit out of mental health treatment, Loughner wasn't exactly crying out for it. On the contrary: it sounds more like he was avoiding people who offered him help.

    So what fucking difference would it have made if the state spent more? Oh right, nothing, it's just another solution in search of a problem.

  • Old Mexican||

    David Frum's plea that we not let all the talk about gun control following the Tucson massacre distract us from the importance of drug control in preventing such horrible crimes.

    Nothing like a good massacre to let it all out... including some people's wooly thoughts.

    In other words, Frum says marijuana prohibition is necessary to prevent mass shootings like this one, which it manifestly failed to do.

    Oh, and nothing like a good massacre to let the irrationals and the logically unhinged loose.

  • ||

    We had a lot of guns before the 1960s, but no school shootings or incidents like these.

    What'a changed? The mainstreaming of dangerous narcotics and nihilistic, violent music/movies.

  • Almanian||

    Preach on, brother Tea!

    It all went downhill when those whippersnapper Four Freshmen started getting popular with the teenie boppers!

    The nihilistic, violent music...and all the kids hopped up on Juju Beans.

    I tell ya.....

    **walks off, muttering**

  • Spiny Norman||

    Every time I hear Helter Skelter I get all rampagey and stabby.

  • ||

    KULTUR WAR!!!!!!11

    HURR DURR

  • sevo||

    "...What'a changed?..."
    The internet!
    I tellya, it's gonna be the death of us all! Write your congress-critter and demand the internet be outlawed immediately!
    Why, people go CRAZY on the internet!

  • Charles Joseph Whitman ||

    I knew I was innocent-call Balko

  • Spur||

    Charles I know you were into that hysteria causing jazz bebop music and their marijuana

  • ||

    Not that I agree with the asshat above, but Whitman was a big amphetamine user.

  • WikiLeaks||

    Excuse me!
    [tap tap]
    Is this thing on?

    What are you laughing at, Four Loko?

  • BP||

    We like it here - nice and quiet.

  • Ground Zero Mosque||

    Gets a little lonely though, especially during the holidays.

  • "Controversial" AZ Law||

    Well, at least we have each other

  • Then you need to advertise||

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  • sevo||

    How about a tasty MJ-brownie recipe?

  • Mmmmmm||

    brownies!

  • ||

    See "Effects of extra-hot black bean chipotle chili con carne" above.

  • Rich||

    "pot smoking loner"

    Obviously the solution is to provide everyone with a constant companion. It'll have the added benefit of solving unemployment.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Pot in the Park on Wednesdays.

    Free smoke!

    Free waffles!

    And a 4 hour Teletubbies marathon!

  • ||

    I can't name one pothead who is violent. Tell me to name ONE ALCOHOLIC who is violent, that's another story.

  • Obvious||

    It's like Lays chips - I can't name just one...

  • ||

    yes. yes. yes

    in 20+ yrs of dealing with violent fucksticks, i can't recall one who was (solely) high on mj. alcohol? yes. meth? yes. cocaine? yes.

    laffing at dumb jokes and eating cheezy poofs is not what i am concerned about, and that's what potheads do

  • Thanks for that||

    not.

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........

  • ||

    oh yea. and it makes some people sleepy

  • Les||

    When they're not playing jazz or writing "Cosmos," you mean.

  • ||

    Wow this is like the coolest thing ever dude. Wow.

    total-privacy.edu.tc

  • Bot Bot||

    No, this thread sucks.

    I mean, really!

    LOL!

  • Towelie||

    Hey, anyone here wanna get high?

  • -||

    Didn't I see you over at another website (*cough cough*)getting gimmick high like a day ago? You need help.

  • -||

    That was for Towelie.

  • -||

    Are you my long-lost twin?

  • Towelie||

    I have no idea what's goin' on...

  • tr0n||

    The link between pot and burrito massacres has long been established.

  • Towelie||

    You got burritos?

    You wanna get high?

  • TallDave||

    I posted some similar thoughts yesterday.

    http://www.classicalvalues.com.....g_and.html

    Don't forget to shave your frum before the cruise!

  • SIV||

    I never realized anyone other than Eric posted there.

  • TallDave||

    What's all this about Jared Lee Loughner? I thought Sarah Palin shot Giffords.

  • sevo||

    Well, Tony claims Palin is the victim, so it's sort of hard to figure out.

  • Metazoan||

    Not only is correlation not necessarily causation, how would he know which direction the causality goes, if marijuana use and schizophrenia are causally related. Besides, this is why we regulate it? So people can get it anyway, and as a side effect houses get broken into by police, pets (and sometimes kids) killed by police, and people are deprived of their fundamental liberty? Yeah, this Frum guy is a real winner.

  • GILMORE||

    I just want to call bullshit on frums' "Schizophrenic pot use" data. Or at least ask where they got this stuff and cite it as 'well established'.

    If you're *diagnosed* schizophrenic, and already being medicated with some of the more common pharmaceuticals used in treatment, I sincerely doubt you'd have any desire to *get high*. I say this as someone whose spent 12 years around a very schizophrenic family member, with lots of exposure to his associates 'in the program' (aka 'also shithouse crazy') You're dealing with people who already suffer from uncontrollable paranoid delusions and emotional instability; gee, let's make it worse by smoking *weed*! Due to side effects related to medications like Zyprexa, Risperdol, Abilify, Clozaril, etc., the experience of smoking pot would likely produce extreme unpleasantness, or knock them into virtual catatonia. I'm speaking of the more extreme cases, with people who are heavily medicated, but I simply can't see people with whacked out brain patterns wanting to juice up the effect and make their processes more unstable. What they DO do is chainsmoke cigarettes because it gives them more of a sense of focus and counteracts some of the irritants of the medications.

    The data I've found which I assume Frum was citing is broken down here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/denial.....use_sc.php

    First off, I don't buy that they've achieved a representative sample of 'current' schizophrenics and their current habits, but rather a sampling of people's behaviors *prior* to diagnosis. Says nothing about their use during treatment, or provide any causation - simply, "people with schizophrenic spectrum disorders are somewhat more likely to get high"...

    Additionally - the strongest indictor of schizophrenia and/or 'cause' (although they've never really nailed down the total biological basis for its emergence) is if someone in your family has had it before; it's considered primarily a *genetic trait*. Meaning, you don't *(&@# 'catch' it, or 'cause' it by substance abuse. The data they discuss is that people who eventually emerge with disorders in the spectrum 'have used' a variety of recreational drugs prior to full-blown symptoms.

    So, "you're already going to go crazy, but you're just making it more likely to get worse by getting high". I don't doubt that.

    e.g.

    http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/healthmyths.html

    ""several studies have found that marijuana use may precipitate earlier onset of schizophrenia or aggravate its symptoms in those already so predisposed. ""

    given that 80% of major symptoms emerge in a fairly narrow window of late teens-early 20s, is it at all surprising that many of the people in this age cohort have smoked dope? You're sampling erratic people in their 20s. They smoke *weed*? Color me shocked.

    Part of my beef with this is that my mom has always been convinced that little bro's crazyness was a product of his maybe having taken mushrooms once, or some other drug she doesn't know about. I keep reminding her its genetic. That explanation makes her feel guilty. Just like Laughner.... everyone wants to find a simple *reason* people go freaking nuts. The idea that life just picks some people and whacks them on the head with the crazy stick is ultimately unsatisfying, and perhaps a little scary.

    I will say this - the more experience you have with people who suffer disorders within the schizophrenic spectrum, the more you see the strong similarities between their issues. One of the strongest is how the normal process of logic is turned into a twisty-straw, where any attempt to 'reason' them out of a crazy-ass-belief runs into serious obstacles. Rather... not obstacles... The logic processor is *just not there*. Instead, something put a major bypass in the Rationality Highway and sends all traffic straight into the imagination and the emotional processors. Once something *seems* logical to them...it is. They can fashion their own rationales out of spare parts of mental junk that have nothing to do with each other.

    Personal favorite example:

    Many schizophrenics have a strong feeling that people around them are all being controlled by some outside force.

    When confronted with the questions, "how COULD they be? and WHY would anyone want to do that?" ...they look at you like you just don't *get it*. The how and why are irrelevant to the "obvious fact" of vast conspiracies to control peoples thoughts. Could be the TV! Could be in the water! Could be via *language controls*... doesn't matter, really!

    You can't really ever get to the base *reasons* for their conclusions... there's no logical chain leading up to it. Its usually based on a strong feeling that becomes the basis for a worldview because of the 'realness' of the feeling. I imagine Laughner eventually came to his conclusion that "words don't mean anything" because he found himself increasingly unable to articulate things in a conventional manner. "nothing wrong with me; WORDS must be broken!" Might seem random to most people, but to me, this is the most obvious indicator of the schizoid condition.

  • ||

    Great post.

  • ||

    I have an ex-girlfriend who was a psychologist at the Institute of Living in Hartford. She worked almost exclusively with schizophrenics (she was from Spain, so she was high-value as far as they were concerned in dealing with Spanish and Portuguese speakers), and all of GILMORE's points are right on the money. The last thing they would usually do is seek out pot; they are known chain smokers (they have a receptor that is particularly keyed to nicotine); and without meds they are volatile. They are mostly non-violent, but you just can't know when one might lose their shit. They tend to express during their very early 20's, and usually, no one saw it coming; it just happens. Most people are not aware of the signs of one expressing; they just seem to be a bit weird, and that's why it comes as such a surprise to even family members.

  • ||

    I see. He suffered from "broken English".

  • ||

    I see. He suffered from "broken English".

  • Spazmo||

    I see. He suffered from double posting.

  • ||

    Holy Smokes. The entire story will be picked apart by arm-chair theorists (new speak?) for many years to come. "Back in 2011 a drug crazed pot smoker attempted to assignate the Congressman from Arizona." "We must control the lives of the people, we know what's best for the good of the people." Are you listening, Winston?
    This is a horrific tragedy. JLL should be punished to the full extent of the law. But, to blame pot or the music is just non-sense.

    Rev.sLeezy

  • O'Brien||

    "We must control the lives of the people, we know what's best for the good of the people."

    I love it!

  • Neu Mejican||

    To chew on...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....t=abstract

    Finally, although people with schizophrenia were nearly 20 times more likely to have committed murder than people in the general population, only one in 300 people with schizophrenia had killed someone, a similar risk to that seen in people with substance abuse....These findings indicate that schizophrenia and other psychoses are associated with violence but that the association is strongest in people with substance abuse and most of the excess risk of violence associated with schizophrenia and other psychoses is mediated by substance abuse. However, the increased risk in patients with comorbidity was similar to that in substance abuse without psychosis. A potential implication of this finding is that violence reduction strategies that focus on preventing substance abuse among both the general population and among people with psychoses might be more successful than strategies that solely target people with mental illnesses.
  • Bruce Majors||

    Schizophrenics do supposedly become heavy chain smokers and NIH studies purport that they are self-medicating, because nicotine actually soothes them by alleviating their abnormal neuro-chemistry.

    Since the market economy has produced innovations in the tobacco market, including e-cigarettes and nicotine patches, one wants to ask Frum if a deregulated pot market wouldn't allow for formulations of pot that are either less harmful or that even delivering helpful medications for schizophrenics (etc.).

    One also wants to ask if neoconservative cocktail parties should be outlawed, since the combination of alcohol consumption and a belief in a rigid, divinely given sexual division of labor has been shown to cause wife beating.

  • PIL||

    David Frum is a piece of work, first he attacks Sarah Palin for not expressing enough regrett over the shooting.
    http://libertarians4freedom.bl.....tacks.html

    Now he attacks pot. Really Frum? Maybe if the shooter had been smoking pot on the day of the shooting he would have ate cookies and relax instead of shooting people.

  • mick||

    First off it is psychopaths not schizos who are dangerous. Too bad journalists are to fucking retarded to know this.

  • ||

    Well, it turns out a very close friend of the shooter said he was into smoking Salvia! What is Salvia? It is a type of sage that is very Hallucinogenic. I lived in Hawaii and did counseling, and I had a couple of clients who began using Salvia, and one client told me about one experience he had. He said he Astro-Projected out of his body and was in a room up in the Universe surrounded by Friendly Aliens. They were Prophetic Beings, so he believed, and told him many things of Great Knowledge. He truly believed it all really happened. Both clients who used Salvia became more and more disconnected with reality to the point they both believed they could manipulate molecular structure and walk through walls, turn rocks into marshmallow's or pillow's but would not do so when requested.

    This Salvia would take anyone who is Normal and has a good sense of reality to the point that they believe that "Others" talk to them and it is REAL........ Depending on the individual and their beliefs or mindset, the manifestations of behavior will differ. Example: If someone has a deep love for life and all that's in it, it will manifest a very outward expression of just that. If someone's head is full of a World of cruel people who do harm, they may act as this individual did. Just as Alcohol does to many people, this Salvia magnifies ones mindset but is backed up with Hallucinations that the individual believes are real and prophetic, that's the part that is very scary to me as a Counselor....that the Hallucinations are Prophetic beings!!!

  • ||

    I used to be dyslexic but smoking pot made me KO.

  • kevin_hunt||

    Note to right-wingers; Frum has written that he favors more gun control.

    As long as Frum is going to espouse correlation as causation, he should be for banning all pharmaceuticals immediately:

    * Recently confirmed: Aurora shooter James Holmes, who murdered 12 people and injured 58 in a movie theatre, was on prescription meds —the names of these medications have been redacted from court documents.

    * Columbine (April 20, 1999) mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox® (Fluvoxamine maleate)

    * Patrick Purdy, who murdered five children and wounded 30 at Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, on January 17, 1989, was using Amitriptyline (an antidepressant), as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine.

    * Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and then opened fire on his classmates at Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon, May, 1998, killing two and wounding 22 others. He had been prescribed both Prozac and Ritalin.

    * In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Illinois, killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the antidepressant Anafranil as well as Lithium.

    * In Paducah, Ky., in late 1997, 14-year-old Michael Carneal, traveled to Heath High School and started shooting students in a prayer meeting taking place in the school’s lobby, killing three and leaving another paralyzed. Carneal reportedly was on Ritalin.

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