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Birthright Citizenship - A Response to Barnett and Wurman
Their argument for denying birthright citizenship to children of undocumented immigrants born in the US has multiple weaknesses, including that it would also have denied it to former slaves.
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In a recent New York Times op ed, legal scholars Randy Barnett and Ilan Wurman offer a partial defense of President Trump's executive order denying birthright citizenship to children of undocumented immigrants, and migrants in the US on temporary visas. The Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment grants citizenship to anyone "born … in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." The standard view of this provision is that it covers everyone born in the United States that is subject to US law, and thus, as the Supreme Court explained in the 1898 Wong Kim Ark case "includ[es] all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications… of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes." The Indians "owing direct allegiance to their several tribes" were excluded because Indian nations were distinct sovereigns exempt from many US laws. For this reason, four federal courts have ruled against Trump's order.
Barnett and Wurman argue that only people born in the United States at a time when their parents have traded "allegiance" for "protection" truly qualify as under the jurisdiction of the United States. They contend that illegal migrants haven't made any such compact with the US, and therefore don't qualify.
Barnett and Wurman cite an 1862 opinion by Attorney General Edward Bates stating that "The Constitution uses the word 'citizen' only to express the political quality of the individual in his relations to the nation; to declare that he is a member of the body politic, and bound to it by the reciprocal obligation of allegiance on the one side and protection on the other." Barnett and Wurman claim the Citizenship Clause is based on a social contract theory under which people enter into a "social compact" with the government, trading allegiance for the protection of the laws.
There are several flaws in Barnett and Wurman's "allegiance-for-protection" theory. The biggest is that, if consistently applied, it would undermine the central purpose the Citizenship Clause: extending citizenship to recently freed slaves and their descendants. Slaves born in the United States (and their parents, who were also usually slaves) obviously weren't part of any social compact under which they traded allegiance for protection. Far from protecting them, state and federal governments facilitated their brutal oppression at the hands of their masters.
This situation changed, to an extent, with the abolition of slavery through the Thirteenth Amendment. But the "subject to the jurisdiction" language of the Citizenship Clause refers to people subject to that jurisdiction at the time they were born. For example, the child of a foreign diplomat doesn't get birthright citizenship if her parents later lose their diplomatic immunity. If being subject to US jurisdiction requires a compact trading allegiance for protection, former slaves obviously didn't qualify. Thus, the Barnett-Wurman theory would defeat the central purpose of the Citizenship Clause. That alone is reason to reject it.
Another problem with their analysis is that they rely almost exclusively on sources interpreting the nature of citizenship before enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment, such as the 1862 Bates opinion. But the whole point of the Citizenship Clause was to expand the range of people eligible for birthright citizenship, to include former slaves. Thus, we should not assume that the Citizenship Clause is limited by previous understandings.
Barnett and Wurman do not consider extensive evidence from the period during and immediately after enactment, of the kind canvassed by scholars such as Michael Ramsey in his detailed 2020 article on this subject. That evidence, as Ramsey explains, strongly supports birthright citizenship for the children of undocumented migrants.
Barnett and Wurman argue that the traditional view cannot explain seeming anomalies, such as "the status of children born to citizens residing within enemy-occupied territory, who appear to have been considered citizens if their parents remained loyal… [a]nd… the status of children born to foreigners on foreign public vessels in U.S. waters, who were not considered citizens." These aren't actually anomalies at all. As the Supreme Court ruled in 1812, foreign public vessels in US territorial waters remain under the sovereignty of their governments, and therefore are not within US jurisdiction. Citizens residing within enemy-held territory remain under an obligation to follow US law, and that duty can be enforced upon them in a way it cannot be on foreign troops (for example through prosecutions undertaken after the US recaptures the territory).
Finally, it's important to remember that, as Gabriel Chin and Paul Finkelman have shown, the freed slaves whose children were covered by the Citizenship Clause included a large population that had entered the US illegally, by virtue of being brought in after the federal government banned the slave trade in 1808. This shows that illegal entry was not considered a barrier to being under US jurisdiction.
Even if valid, the Barnett-Wurman theory only partially justifies Trump's order. That order excludes not just children of illegal entrants, but those born to migrants who entered legally on temporary visas. But their argument fails with respect to children of the undocumented, as well. At the very least, it is not strong enough to overcome decades of contrary precedent and practice, thereby subjecting hundreds of thousands of innocent children to the trauma of deportation.
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Ilya 101 -- the whole world has the right to invade and loot the USA.
Hey Ilya, "looting" historically has been a defining characteristic of an "invasion" and these INVADERS have so LOOTED Massachusetts that the Commonwealth would be bankrupt but for the "Millionaire's Tax" which was supposed to be used to fix our roads and schools -- and isn't.
Come on, you racist shithead. You can come up with better arguments than that.
No, he can't.
There are no invaders, and no looting. Words have meaning — just not the meanings you give to them. (Your failure to understand that, not oppression by women, is why your career is a series of failures.)
1: Who says my career is "a series of failures"?
2: If this isn't "looting" then what is?
https://howiecarrshow.com/from-the-frontline-of-massachusetts-descent-into-the-third-world/
Even setting aside that you once again confuse illegal immigrants and refugees:
Oh, and to save us a step in this dance:
(In each case, emphasis added.)
So the Nazis didn't steal from the Jews because they had legal right.
Someone in a past thread brought up the question of someone born on U.S. soil to one parent who is a diplomatic official [the exact definition is somewhat confusing!*] and a U.S. citizen.
I found this...
"If one parent was an accredited diplomat, but the other was a U.S. citizen or non-citizen U.S. national, then the child was “born . . . subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,” and is a citizen."
Also:
"Children born in the United States to accredited foreign diplomatic officers do not acquire citizenship under the 14th Amendment since they are not “born . . . subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.” DHS regulations, however, have long allowed these children to choose to be considered lawful permanent residents (LPRs) from the time of birth."
https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-7-part-o-chapter-3
I welcome any updates.
===
* A conservative discussion flags the issue:
https://cis.org/Oped/Stop-Automatically-Granting-US-Citizenship-Children-Foreign-Diplomats
My Hypothetical still stands, Mrs Osama Bin Laden, who managed to escape OBL's tortuous rule, shows up on Amurican Soil, September 12, 2001, and promptly gives birth to Osama Bin Laden Jr. So Osama Bin Laden Jr is a Full Amurican Citizen, with all the privileges that it entrails? Could even become President Osama Bin Laden Jr??
While Elon Musk, although a naturalized Citizen, can never be POTUS, because he wasn't born here??
Something's rotten in Denmark
Frank
Yes, and even if Hitler himself had been born in the US, he'd be a US citizen. But he wasn't. Instead we got Timothy McVeigh and Jeffrey Dahmer, who despite being very bad men were citizens.
Citizenship isn't determined by hypotheticals invented by randos on the internet.
I think Sleepy Joe's comments about "Lincoln Riley" (has anyone let Lincoln Riley know he was murdered?) were more coherent than yours.
If my comment is so incoherent, I'm sure you can point out in specificity something false and irrational I wrote. All I said is 1. Hitler, like Osama bin Laden, was not born in the US and was therefore not a US citizen. But other villainous figures were born in the US and therefore were citizens, regardless of their evil.
How is any of that incoherent?
That you felt you had to explain to us yokels that Hitler and Obama Bin Laden weren’t born in the US and Jeffy Dahmer and McVeigh were (I’d much rather Dahmer and McVeigh committed their crimes in Germany or Saudi Arabia)
It seems to be a point of confusion for you. All men are created equal. Even the bad guys. Even the relatives of the bad guys. If Osama bin Laden's son had been born in the US, he'd be a citizen and eligible for the presidency. We don't have to like every particular result of constitutional law to recognize that it's still good to have constitutional law, instead of some arbitrary micro-manager at the top.
The most obvious solution to this problem is by a constitutional amendment. I would imagine it would pass in lightning speed and eliminate all doubt. It would be overwhelmingly supported by the people and would prevent future messing about with the issue.
Why not propose it and see what happens? I completely agree a constitutional amendment would resolve the issue in a completely legitimate way. I doubt either 2/3 of both houses of Congress or 3/4 of state legislatures would be willing to pass it. But I could be wrong
I think the 3/4 of the states are far more likely than the 2/3 of both houses. Again I'll say it: The Republicans should declare, (With far more basis than Biden on the ERA!) that enough states have called for a constitutional convention, and kick one off. Nothing that's really unpopular with Republicans can be ratified, and too many amendments that the general population strongly supports will never make it out of Congress.
No need for an amendment. We just need Scotus to interpret "subject to the jurisdiction". It could say the parents have to be citizens or permanent residents.
They already did that. As noted in this very post, the Wong Kim Ark case "includ[es] all children here born of resident aliens..." And that's because the issue in Wong Kim Ark was limited to whether the child of parents who had “a permanent domicile and residence in the United States” was a citizen at birth. Those were the agreed facts upon which the Court framed the issue and its holding. Illegal aliens and tourists do not reside in this country. One is merely a temporary legal visitor, the other has illegally trespassed the borders of this country. Of course illegal aliens are subject to the law, that's why they're called illegal. But they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US within the meaning of the 14th amendment. At least if one actually wants to apply Wong Kim Ark. Now the case should probably be overruled but it doesn't need to be to uphold President Trump's EO. It just needs to be correctly applied.
i.e., you two bigots want SC to misinterpret 14A to fit your bigotry. :I can see Thomalito going along with this, but noy any justice with integrity.
Racist name calling. How original. But to clarify further, the Court’s reference to “resident aliens” wasn’t accidental. The full sentence of Sec. 1 of the 14th amendment reads: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.“ That its main and specific purpose was to apply to the freed slave population is historically undeniable. And that population was permanently and legally residing in one of this country’s states. They weren’t addressing illegal aliens as we call them today but such persons are not residents of any state any more than tourists. Less so. They’re illegal. They weren’t admitted with a temporary visa. They’re just trespassers. The “jus soli” commentary was unfortunate dicta, and not very persuasive at that. If I’m wrong, then Wong Kim Ark should be overruled.
You’re not Wong
Except that as Professor Somin explains, not all the freed slaves were legally residing in the United States: "[F]reed slaves whose children were covered by the Citizenship Clause included a large population that had entered the US illegally, by virtue of being brought in after the federal government banned the slave trade in 1808. This shows that illegal entry was not considered a barrier to being under US jurisdiction."
In addition, you fail to distinguish between national citizenship and state citizenship. The word "resident" only refers to the *state* in which the person resides. But people can be born in the United States, and thus be United States citizens, even if they don't reside in a state (i.e., those born in Washington, D.C.).
Also, you misunderstand what "dicta" is. Dicta does not apply to reasoning that is central to the ultimate holding. A legal holding set down in a case is not necessarily limited to its facts. The rule in Wong Kim Ark is that anyone born on United States soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States unless born to (1) foreign diplomats, (2) enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, or (3) Indian tribe members. The rule is part of the holding.
And there is no convincing basis for overruling that holding, at least not one based in the original meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. As I've already explained, granting birthright citizenship to those born to people who illegally entered the country - children of illegally imported slaves - was central to fulfilling the Fourteenth Amendment's primary historical purpose. But regardless, we are bound by original meaning, not original intent, and the original meaning of the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is unambiguous. If Wong Kim Ark is overruled, then the overruling case will be some living constitutionalist bullshit.
If you think the argument that residency is an inherent requirement of the 14th amendment is somehow refuted because DC is not a state, well then you're welcome to your view. And before you pontificate on dicta, I would suggest you read Wong Kim Ark.
And, yeah, I am ignoring the rather silly effort to make allegedly illegally residing former slaves into an ersatz illegal alien population for the purposes of interpreting the 14th amendment. And you know who else never considered the contention? The drafters of the amendment, everyone in Congress at the time, and the Supreme Court. No one considered it and the purely academic question has no bearing on the intended scope of the 14th amendment.
I have definitely read Wong Kim Ark. Multiple times. If the reasoning of the case is central to its holding, you can't discount the reasoning as dicta, even if the rule set forth in the reasoning would apply to a broader set of facts than what is at issue in the case. That is definitely the case in Wong Kim Ark. To discount it as dicta is to discount almost all the reasoning. That is not an offhand comment made in passing, which is what dicta is.
You are free to discount historical evidence that is inconsistent with your views. But labeling it "silly" without explaining how you think birthright citizenship could apply to children of illegally imported slaves but not children of illegal immigrants isn't convincing anybody.
Lastly, that nobody at the time of the 14th Amendment's enactment considered how it would apply to illegal immigrants is irrelevant. We aren't bound by original expectations or original intent. We are bound by original public meaning. The words used had a set and unambiguous meaning, and there is no basis for departing from that meaning absent a constitutional amendment.
The logic The Court used in Wong applies to anyone who is subject to the law.
If this were a person it would be a liar, but I don't think a bot programmed to repeat talking points it doesn't understand can actually be called a "liar."
The Wong Kim Ark case discusses how jus soli applies to everyone born here, regardless of the residence of their parents.
THANK YOU. It's driving me nuts that people think a legal rule has to be limited to its facts and that it is only "dicta" if applied to other sets of facts. That is not how caselaw works!
Wong Kim Ark described the law and prescribed the rule: anyone born on United States soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States unless born to (1) foreign diplomats, (2) enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, or (3) Indian tribe members.
THE RULE IS PART OF THE HOLDING. Thank the Lord there is at least one other commenter who appears to understand this.
That is absolutely not what Wong Kim Ark did. Yes, the facts of Wong Kim Ark included an individual who was the child of lawful permanent residents, but that doesn't mean that the rule set down in the case is limited to children of lawful permanent residents. The court's holding is as follows:
"Was a child of lawful permanent residents subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of his birth? The law is that anyone born on United States soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States unless born to (1) foreign diplomats, (2) enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, or (3) Indian tribe members. Because Wong Kim Ark does not fall within one of those categories, he was born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and is entitled to birthright citizenship."
Both the *rule* and its *application* are part of the Court's holding. Wong Kim Ark did not include any qualifiers leaving the door open to other categories of individuals who are exempted from birthright citizenship, so there is no good-faith basis for trying to limit Wong Kim Ark to its facts.
The people as a whole are quite satisfied with the current Constitution with a broad birthright citizenship clause.
What is the text of this supposed amendment that will obtain 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states?
There are numerous constitutional disputes on how to properly interpret the Constitution. The people rarely find it necessary to ratify an amendment to clarify the situation.
It would not pass easily, if at all. Many of us like the 14A the way it is. We don’t have hostility to immigrants as MAGAs do. And we don’t want to punish children for the “sins” of their parents.
Been there done that. It's called the Fourteenth Amendment, and it's clear and unambiguous. It requires clarification only if one gives credence to bad-faith morons attempting to insert new words like "exclusive" and "allegiance" into the text. No reason we should have to pass a constitutional amendment to say, "The Fourteenth Amendment means what it says."
Black people were not citizens prior to the 14th Amendment because Dred Scott had said they were not part of any social compact. A social compact is a compact of association, and Dred Scott had said they were “altogether unfit to associate with the white man.”
The 13th Amendment simply abolished slavery. It was the 14th that made them citizens. I completely agree that the 14th Amendment made them citizens not only in the absence of a social compact but in the face of prior law specifically holding a social compact with them was an impossibility. And it was generalized to all similarly situated.
This makes social compact theory completely irrelevant. The plain language and the legislative history, not some theory based on something somebody wrote in 1862, control. And they make it clear that it applies, indeed it specifically applies, to the children of completely unassimulated aliens with no legal status here.
Somin raises the issue of slaves who were smuggled into the USA illegally. They could have been deported, and sometimes were. But did they have the right to give birth to USA citizens before being deported? This is an interesting hypothetical, but I do not think it has any bearing on migrants today.
"But did they have the right to give birth to USA citizens before being deported?
The "rights" of those slaves has nothing to do with the rights of their US-born children.
"Slaves born in the United States (and their parents, who were also usually slaves) obviously weren't part of any social compact under which they traded allegiance for protection. "
This argument doesn't hold water since the slaves were not free agents and were under the control of others. The part that Somin misses is that the entry into civilization from the state of nature was a voluntary act.
The second error in Somin's analysis is that he uses the anachronistic phase "undocumented migrants" which was unknown at the time of the 14th Amendment since there were few if any restrictions on entering the US.
To cut the Gordian knot of birthright citizenship you must first determine the constitutionality of the laws regarding entering the US. The purpose of this is to determine the proper reach of such laws. Then, with the criteria for legal entry established, the question of whether entrants are under the jurisdiction of the US can be determined.
I don't see where he misses the first point. Not being part of the social contract arose from not being free agents. They "weren't" part of the social contract.
The anachronistic phrase "undocumented migrants"
He cites the term to cover those who live today.
He doesn't say there was a general understanding of the term then. Constitutional analysis requires applying the text to new situations and concepts like the Internet as a First Amendment problem. And, he does so.
The question of whether entrants are under the jurisdiction of the US can be determined
The issue has been determined. They are subject to criminal laws.
(Except for the usual exceptions -- diplomats and invaders.)
The issue isn't a "general understanding" of the term. It's even using the term at all. Legally, there's no such thing as an "undocumented" alien or migrant, the legal term, in multiple statutes, is "illegal".
It's just a stupid euphemism. The decision to consistently use it in what purports to be serious legal analysis demonstrates that Somin isn't approaching the topic as a serious legal scholar. People don't use these sorts of euphemisms when they mean to engage in rigorous analysis.
It amounts to a shibboleth utilized by people opposed to enforcement of immigration laws. Once somebody uses it, you should stop expecting serious legal analysis.
The point that I was making was that there was no such thing as an illegal or undocumented alien at the time of the 14th Amendment. There were no restrictions on immigration.
Now that there are restrictions, what was the constitutional power that provided the authority for the restrictions? Without this, there is no way to determine whether a person that has entered the country is under the jurisdiction of the country.
If the Constitution doesn't cover this, then do you apply the theory that a person gives "allegiance-for-protection"? Allegiance, in this context, means acknowledging the existing laws. If you do not obey the existing laws, does that mean that you haven't given allegiance?
I'm not taking sides, I don't know if birthright citizenship can be denied to illegal aliens. I just want to be fairly confident that the ruling on this issue won't be based on something having really bad unexpected consequences.
No, that's entirely wrong. Whether Congress had authority to restrict immigration has no bearing on whether someone here is under the jurisdiction of the country. Again: illegal immigrants are subject to our laws. Literally zero people dispute that. Nobody thinks that if an illegal immigrant kills someone, he's immune from prosecution.
"The second error in Somin's analysis is that he uses the anachronistic phase "undocumented migrants" which was unknown at the time of the 14th Amendment"
No kidding. If you check Google Ngram, that euphemism for "illegal" was invented around 1970.
50 years is a long time. Quit policing other people's vocabularies, I hear that annoys you.
Relative to the 14th amendment, which was the reference point, it's a very short time indeed. But, mainly, you need to get over this severe case of "presentism" you're suffering from.
We don't speak 14h Amendment, we speak English.
He imposes his own limiting concept of what can constitute being a member of the “ social compact.” Still pondering this theory myself but I would say what would be determinative is what the drafters of the 14th amendment thought it meant. Apart from it’s history, the reach of the amendment, by its own terms, to state residents clearly meant that it applied to this former slave population. Thus the slaves prior to its adoption (if this theory controls) were seen to be a part of that “social compact” at some level.
I guess that motto is never let your opponents define the issue. Especially open border opponents who are law professors.
The key thing to keep in mind is that Barnett is a fucking retard.
He's an own-the-libs Twitter shitposter and an embarrassment to libertarians and conservatives. He isn't stupid.
Really? I met him a long time ago in a libertarian thing, and he seemed okay. Shame to hear that he's "red pilled".
Since 2015. About when he stopped posting here.
"Another problem with their analysis is that they rely almost exclusively on sources interpreting the nature of citizenship before enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment . . . ." Well, Wong Kim Ark relies heavily on sources in that category. Basically, Wong Kim Ark says that the Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment intended to adopt jus soli as American law, though Europe was moving in the opposite direction during the 19th century. It seems relevant, therefore, to determine what the pre-Fourteenth Amendment jus soli doctrine was on persons illegally present in the sovereign's jurisdiction. Of course, it's difficult, because that wasn't a big issue, or a big category of people, in 19th century jurisprudence.
No. Actually — not merely "basically" — Wong Kim Ark says that the U.S. already had jus soli as American law. The Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment merely intended to correct a temporary deviation from it by Dred Scott and codify it so that people like Taney couldn't make shit up again.
"Codify" is a more felicitous choice of word than "adopt," I agree. But since, according to Wong Kim Ark, the Framers intended to codify (happy?) the law of jus soli, which had been the prevailing Western custom prior to the 19th century, cases and commentaries describing the parameters of that doctrine are relevant in interpreting it. Or at least, that is the usual legal approach to codifications, i.e., to interpret them in light of the preceding common law.
Taney made up stuff but even Justice Curtis in dissent didn't say every free black person born on U.S. soil was a citizen.
He argued at least some states granted citizenship to free blacks & that was enough for pleading purposes:
in some of the original thirteen States, free colored persons, before and at the time of the formation of the Constitution, were citizens of those States.
The nature of black citizenship in antebellum times was much debated with various possible answers. See, e.g., Don Fehrenbacher's work on the case for details.
The 14A cleared the field. It set forth a clear rule under which all persons, of whatever color or previous state of servitude would be birthright citizens excepting the usual categories (invaders, diplomats, certain Native Americans).
Barnett and Wurman are arguing for a slightly different interpretation: rather than "clearing the field," the 14th Amendment simply made the common law doctrine of jus soli universally applicable, without regard to race. That still leaves open the question of how that doctrine applies to illegal immigrants. There isn't much precedent on that point, so they employ the usual analytic device of examining the principles and rationale behind the doctrine. Some might disagree with their analysis, but it isn't an unprecedented or somehow illegitimate approach.
so they employ the usual analytic device of examining the principles and rationale behind the doctrine. Some might disagree with their analysis, but it isn't an unprecedented or somehow illegitimate approach.
The general concern is not that their analytical approach is "illegitimate" or such. It is that the details are wrong.
Somin seems to think that their analytic approach is illegitimate, when he says, "[W]e should not assume that the Citizenship Clause is limited by previous understandings." He regards previous understandings of jus soli as irrelevant, whereas Barnett and Wurman (and maybe the Wong Kim Ark court) regard those understandings as having continuing vitality, but no longer limited by race. Somin does not engage in any detailed analysis of historical jus soli doctrine.
You summarized the position as the "usual analytic device of examining the principles and rationale behind the doctrine."
Somin does not find that "illegitimate." He speaks of the "central purpose the Citizenship Clause." That is, the rationale. Or, "the whole point." The principles behind it.
He challenges the completeness of their evidence: "do not consider extensive evidence from the period during and immediately after enactment."
Somin is not challenging their overall approach. He also does not consider "previous understandings of jus soli as irrelevant."
He argues that "we should not assume that the Citizenship Clause is limited by previous understandings." That was in particular in citation to a 1862 interpretation. That doesn't make everything that happens before "irrevelant."
"Somin does not engage in any detailed analysis of historical jus soli doctrine." He cites a law article that did so.
I think the Court decided Wong-ly in 1898, just like with Plessy v Ferguson, sometimes it takes awhile to get it White, I mean Right
Frank
"and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes." The Indians "owing direct allegiance to their several tribes" were excluded because Indian nations were distinct sovereigns exempt from many US laws."
Which raises the question of how illegal aliens, citizens of distinct sovereigns, whose very presence in the country is a rejection of our own law, are distinct from the Indian tribes. I think this is probably Trump's best legal argument, which is not to say that it's a really good one.
whose very presence in the country is a rejection of our own law
The actual law is rarely this melodramatic.
Who cares about melodrama? It's true: Nobody who intended to faithfully obey our laws would illegally immigrate here in the first place. The very fact that they're here represents a rejection of our laws as binding on them. The categorical opposite of allegiance to the US.
Nobody who intended to faithfully obey our laws would illegally immigrate here in the first place
We've been over this. Humans don't have some switch that once they break the law (in this case not even a felony) it gets turned to 'criminal.'
The stats don't bear that out either.
It's just you. Being an out and proud bigot.
No, humans don't have such a switch. But anybody who comes here in knowing and deliberate defiance of our laws has adequately demonstrated where they stand when it comes to being law abiding: Perhaps they'll obey our laws out of prudence, but they're not obeying them because they feel some obligation to.
Or else they wouldn't be here in the first place.
Adequate to you.
Because you are overdetermined in hating this group.
Again, in the contravention of actual statistics. i.e. reality.
This is why I call you a bigot.
Still a "libertarian" who doesn't understand the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum.
To lay out the case here, you are:
1. Making a universal statement about a group. That applies to all of them. Not about what they have done, but also about what they *represent*
2. This statement is contradicted by statistics. You ignore that.
3. You use this statement to go after the kids of those in the group, who have done nothing. But they still *represent* what you hate.
A universal moral stain on an outgroup. That's bigotry.
A moral pass on an outgroup is also bigotry.
Sounds like you're into the moral stain business.
You're wrong. Treat people like individuals. Realize that this is not a felony or anything like that.
Fix the problem, deport people as every admin has in the modern era.
But don't blame the whole group. And certainly don't blame their kids.
"Which raises the question of how illegal aliens, citizens of distinct sovereigns, whose very presence in the country is a rejection of our own law, are distinct from the Indian tribes."
How about because sovereign Indian tribes were actually specifically recognized as a distinct category of political entities by the Constitution itself? (This is the conclusion of a number of SCOTUS decisions going back 200 years.)
It does not raise that question, because nobody would be stupid enough to make that irrelevant claim.
1) Breaking a law is not "rejecting" the law. Bank robbers are not claiming that laws against such don't exist or are illegitimate.
2) Indian tribes were quasi-sovereign. We dealt with Indian tribes — as was discussed in Congress during the debates over the 14th amendment — via treaties. We do not deal with illegal immigrants (or bank robbers) through treaties with them.
3) We're not talking about illegal immigrants. We are talking about their children, who neither broke nor rejected our laws.
4) This "citizens of distinct sovereigns" argument proves too much, because all immigrants who haven't naturalized are citizens of distinct sovereigns, whether they're here legally or not.
Not nearly as complicated as it is being made out to be. 14A applied to the children of all immigrants in 1868 and thus it does now. Congress can not create a class of people and exclude them from rights they previously had.
You don't read so good? the Amendment clearly states "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" which as clear as Lindsey Graham is gay, doesn't include Ill-legal Aliens, Clarence Thomas will diaphragm it for you in a few months.
The original intent of 14A was to include the children of all immigrants. There were no illegal immigrants back then.
You say that enough you’ll believe it
Facts are the enemy of MAGAs.
In antebellum America, multiple states put limits on immigration, including of free blacks. The concept of an "illegal immigrant" was not totally foreign to the times.
A slave state, for instance, could require a freed slave to leave the state. The person would not be allowed to return. If they did, the person would be an "illegal immigrant." The person still would be within the jurisdiction of the state. Not akin to a diplomat.
The OP cites slaves illegally brought in violation of bans on the slave trade. There are various examples.
I believe Professor Barnett is one of the "plain meaning" advocates of the notion that "the second amendment means what it says" against the academic left's attempts to use the "militia" part of the 2nd amendment to subvert the plain meaning. But when we get to the 14th amendment citizenship clause, the professor starts torturing the language to justify what is clearly his preferred policy on the subject.
Like “Shall not be Infringed” what part of “Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof” don’t you comprehend, Friend-O
Frank “Call it”
By your logic:
Once someone gets into the US illegally, he or she can do anything they want of they are not subject to US jurisdiction, including murder. So the Laken Riley Act is unconditional.
Ya, it really is a pain when you have to ignore words in the Constitution in order to illuminate the plain meaning.
Surgical Colleague of mine from the former Rumania(wait, it’s still Rumania) came here in the 90’s, his “Asylum” claim didn’t wash, he’d been in the Army, and was related to Ceaucesco, so had to do the Visa, took years to become a permanent resident, and finally a Citizen (a more “MAGA” you won’t find anywhere) Jeez, if only his mom had come here when she was Pregnant!
Frank
The argument for birthright citizenship relies almost solely on geography, while ignoring important issues of logic, law, ethics and morality.
A person who is in a country without legal documentation is, in the eyes of the law, nonexistent. There is no record of that person's entry into the country, nor of that person's presence in the country. There is no certificate of birth indicating that person's presence in the country, nor giving that person the right to reside therein.
Thus, persons who are nonexistent in the eyes of the law may as well be non-persons, non-entities, imaginary beings, ghosts or fictional beings.
Therefore, any child born to non-existent persons must, itself, be non-existent, and cannot pretend to have citizenship since citizenship is not conferred to non-existing persons.
The child may as well have been born in some other country as far as the law should be concerned.
There is, also, the moral and ethical issue of a woman or a couple of foreign nationality enter a country illegally so that the woman might give birth to a child, and by that, secure citizenship for that child.
This is called "hacking the system," and we all recognize that it is neither ethical nor moral. It is taking unfair advantage of a technicality, a loophole created by incomplete and ambiguous phrasing.
The governing authorities and jurists should clarify this murky issue, which seems what President Trump is aiming for.
Some crazy shit right here.
Disappointing comment section. People throwing "bigot" around to stop actual good faith discussion of how a sovereign nation might reasonably control its borders and distinguish citizens from those evading(!) the jurisdiction which is a key part to Constitutional provision at issue.
How are the children in question evading any jurisdiction of anything?
"A person who is in a country without legal documentation is, in the eyes of the law, nonexistent."
So what happens if one of these nonexistent persons commits murder on US soil?
If they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, then they are by definition, beyond the reach of any law.
I’m glad my law school didn’t hire lying right wing peddlers of false history for the sake of diversity.
I mean, that op-ed was clearly a job-application, because that's apparently how things are done these days.
So in that sense, it makes no difference that Randy is spouting obvious bullshit (obvious enough that non-lawyers can spot issues with it), in the technical sense of that term. It actually probably helps - their desired employer likes potential newhires to demonstrate their willingness to humiliate themselves in public, and dog knows he demands it while they stay useful enough to remain employed.
Follow your dreams, Randy!
President Trump can avoid the 14th amendment constitutional question entirely by simply issuing an executive order that forbids the registration of birth, and the issuance of a birth certificate, to any person born to parents who are in the country illegally.
Since the parents are undocumented, any child born to them will be undocumented as well, and cannot pretend to any right to citizenship.
Birth registration and certification for a child born to parents in the country illegally can be obtained from the embassy or consulate of the nation of which the parent is a citizen.