The Volokh Conspiracy
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Political Ignorance is an Even Worse Problem than I Thought
I've long warned about the dangers of voter ignorance. But the Trump era and the current election reveal that, on one crucial point, I was actually too optimistic.
I've never been a big believer in the wisdom of voters. Indeed, I've devoted much of my academic career to writing about the dangers of widespread political ignorance, going all the way back to my first academic article. It was published in 1998, at a time when most experts tended to be relatively optimistic about voter competence. Since then, I published a book on the subject - Democracy and Political Ignorance - and many other articles exploring various dimensions of the problem, its implications for legal and political theory, and possible solutions.
In these works, I explained how most voters often don't know even basic facts about the political system and government policy, and those that know more (the "political fans"), often tend to evaluate political information in a highly biased way. I also argued that information shortcuts and "miracles of aggregation" largely fail to offset ignorance and bias, and sometimes even make thing worse. Moreover, this sad state of affairs is not the result of stupidity or lack of information, but of generally rational behavior on the part of most voters: a combination of "rational ignorance" (lack of incentive to seek out political information) and "rational irrationality" (lack of incentive to engage in unbiased evaluation).
Since the rise of Trump and similar right-wing nationalist politicians in other countries, academics and political commentators have become more aware of the dangers of public ignorance. I wish I could say my own take on the subject has been vindicated. But in one crucial respect, the Trump era has shown I wasn't pessimistic enough.
Though I have long argued that voter ignorance and bias are serious dangers, and that information shortcuts are overrated, I also asserted that shortcuts actually work well in one important way: democratic electorates will punish politicians who cause great harm in clear and obvious ways. For example, I cited economist Amartya Sen's famous finding that mass famines never or almost never occur under democracies, while they are all too common under dictatorship. Even ignorant and biased voters will notice a famine is going on, blame incumbent politicians for it, and punish them at the ballot box. Knowing this, democratic political leaders have strong incentives to avoid famines and other obvious disasters. And they generally do just that, at least when they have the necessary knowledge and resources (disasters can still happen if avoiding them is difficult).
"Retrospective voting" - rewarding and punishing incumbents for things that happen on their watch - often works poorly in less extreme and less clearcut cases. As explained in Chapter 4 of my book, voters often reward or punish office-holders for things they didn't cause (most notably short-term economic trends; but also things like droughts and even sports-team victories), while ignoring some that they are in fact responsible for. But retrospective voting is a great mechanism for punishing politicians for obvious large-scale awfulness, one that works very well.
Or so I thought, along with many other scholars. But Trump proved me at least partially wrong. I was too optimistic.
Trump's effort to use force and fraud to overturn the 2020 election was exactly the sort of obvious and blatant awfulness that retrospective voting theory predicts the electorate should decisively repudiate. Peaceful transitions of power are fundamental to democracy, and Trump's 2020 activities struck at the very heart of this norm. Had he succeeded, it would have severely damaged the basic structure of our liberal democratic institutions. Yet a large majority of GOP voters renominated Trump again this year. And he has roughly an even chance to win the general election this year. If he goes on to lose, it will probably be by a very narrow margin, not the kind of overwhelming repudiation that would vindicate the theory.
Some people who would otherwise vote GOP are punishing Trump for his 2020 behavior by voting for Harris, or at least abstaining. Mike Pence and former GOP Rep. Liz Cheney are not alone. Thanks in part to these defectors, Trump is doing worse than a Republican nominee untainted by 2020 probably would be. But the number of such voters is much smaller than optimistic versions of retrospective voting theory would predict.
Ignorance and bias are playing a huge role in Trump's relative success. Polls consistently show that a third or more of Americans - including a large majority of Republicans - believe Trump's lies about the 2020 election, despite the overwhelming evidence against them, including numerous court decisions rejecting Trumpian claims of voter fraud (including some written by conservative judges appointed by Trump himself). Ignorance and partisan bias are great enough that many millions of GOP base voters reject fairly obvious facts here. If you believe the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump, then his reaction may well seem justified, or at least excusable.
But this isn't the full story. If Trump only had the support of voters who actually believe his lies about the 2020 election, he could still have won the 2024 GOP nomination. But he would be losing the general election in a landslide of about 60-40 or even more. He remains competitive with Kamala Harris because there are many voters (probably around 10-15% or so of the electorate) who reject his take on 2020, but prioritize other issues, such as the economy or immigration.
Here, more conventional political ignorance is playing a role. Surveys indicate that the economy is the highest priority for voters, including swing voters, and many are angry about the inflation and price increases that took place in 2021-23. Here, there is a fairly standard political ignorance story. Swing voters blame incumbent Democrats for the inflation and price increases, even though actually both parties supported the policies that caused them (primarily massive Covid-era spending). Even worse, they tend to think Trump will bring down prices, even though his agenda of massive tariff increases and immigration restrictions would predictably raise them.
It's not unusual for voters to misallocate blame for ordinary bad developments or to misunderstand the impact of policies. But, for a large bloc of swing voters, this relatively conventional ignorance about price increases and the policies that cause them is enough to outweigh concerns about what Trump did in 2020. Bad conventional retrospective voting forestalls beneficial retrospective voting against Trump's extraordinary 2020 awfulness and the danger failing to punish it poses to the constitutional system.
What is true of price increases also applies immigration. Increased immigration is actually beneficial, not harmful, and the best way to deal with disorder at the border is to make legal migration easier, not harder (as Trump proposes to do). But even if you're more of a border hawk, it's hard to show that problems caused by migration are as pressing as threats to the constitutional order. At the very least, GOP primary voters could have picked one of several available highly restrictionist candidates who weren't involved in Trump's efforts to overturn the election. The belief that immigration is not just a policy problem but an "invasion" amounting to a huge crisis, is itself heavily linked to ignorance.
One possible way to reconcile optimistic retrospective voting theory with recent developments is to say what happened in 2020-21 wasn't really that bad, because Trump's plan to overturn the election failed and the "guardrails" held; thus, we need not worry too much about it. It's not clear if any significant number of voters continue to support Trump because of these sorts of considerations. But, if they do, it's very bad reasoning. Libertarian political philosopher Michael Huemer explains:
Let me tell you how I view this [argument]. Say you're on a bus ride on a winding mountain road. You see the driver suddenly swing the wheel to the right, trying to send the bus over the cliff. Fortunately, the guard rail on the side of the road holds, and the bus bounces back onto the road. The bus driver does this repeatedly during the drive, but every time, the guard rail holds the bus back.
When you finally get off the bus, one of your fellow passengers declares that this was an excellent bus driver. He proposes hiring this driver to drive the same group to another city.
"What are you, out of your f—ing mind?" you reply. "He tried to drive us off a cliff!"
"Oh that," says the other passenger. "The guard rail held, so what's the big deal? Don't worry, this next drive won't go by a cliff. Since the rest of his driving performance was fine, we should hire him…"
Do I have to spell it out…? Driving off a cliff is not the only bad thing a bus driver can do. There is an indefinite number of disasters a crazy person can cause. Anyone who would try to drive a bus off a cliff can never be trusted with a bus, or indeed anything else, and if you think he's an acceptable driver, you're as crazy as he is.
I would add that a driver who tried to drive off a cliff once could do so again. And even a small chance of the guardrails failing is an enormous danger when the stakes are the future of constitutional democracy. Moreover, failing to punish politicians who seek to overturn elections by force and fraud incentivizes more such behavior. And some of those who attempt it in the future might be more successful than Trump was.
This isn't the first time large numbers of people failed to retrospectively penalize truly awful policies and candidates because of a combination of belief in lies and flawed ordinary retrospective voting. The horrific calamity of World War I should have led Europeans to repudiate the expansionist nationalism that caused it. Some did. But many Germans actually doubled down on nationalism and imperialism because of the "stab in the back" myth that held that Germany only lost the war because of betrayal by Jews, leftists, and others.
Later, the combination of the stab-in-the-back myth and conventional retrospective voting against the Weimar Republic government that presided over the Great Depression helped bring the Nazis to power. In the US, the political consequences of the Depression were less bad. But ignorance did lead voters to embrace a range of harmful policies that actually made the crisis worse.
The Great Depression, at least, was a horrendous crisis that caused truly enormous suffering. Today's price increases and border problems pale by comparison. If even the latter can lead many voters to forego punishing truly awful political leaders, that means retrospective voting is much less effective than I and others gave it credit for.
Recent developments don't prove that retrospective voting is totally useless. Amartya Sen is, I think, still right about democracy and famines! Democracy is still better than dictatorship. But the threshold for reliable and accurate retrospective political punishment is higher than I and some others previously believed. A mass famine may be enough. But a blatant threat to the foundations of liberal democracy doesn't necessarily cut it. All too many people are easily persuaded that the threat was actually justified, or that it is at least outweighed by relatively ordinary policy issues.
Voter ignorance and bias are far from limited to the right side of the political spectrum. I've previously written about left-wing examples (e.g. - here). But the Trump situation is the most dramatic proof that the problem is worse than even relative voter-knowledge pessimists - like me - previously thought.
The election could yet invalidate my new more pessimistic view. If, contrary to what polls indicate, Trump loses by a large margin, that would indicate he may be paying a higher political price for 2020 than I currently expect. But if he wins, or only loses narrowly, then the increased pessimism is warranted.
There is no easy way to "fix" political ignorance. I assess a range of possible options in a recent article on "Top-Down and Bottom-Up Solutions to the Problem of Political Ignorance, and in my book Democracy and Political Ignorance. I believe the best approach is to make fewer decisions at the ballot box and more by "voting with your feet," where incentives to seek out information and use it wisely are better. But I admit that any effective approach will take time, and there may be no one fix that is sufficient by itself. We may need a combination of several strategies.
Be that as it may, recent developments strongly suggest the problem is even worse than I previously believed. That makes the need for solutions even more pressing.
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Ahhhhh, another bout of Somin TDS madness. I do so love how ol Ilya implicitly condones the destruction of evidence and outright falsehoods presented by the Jan 6 commission.
Somin just demonstrates his own ignorance. Sure, everyone is ignorant of what Harris will do as President, because she refuses to tell us! She just says some meaningless generalities, and some nonsense like fighting inflation by prosecuting grocery store price gougers. She depends on the ignorance of women and Black voters.
"Sure, everyone is ignorant of what Harris will do as President, because she refuses to tell us!"
She doesn't have to tell us. She has shown us.
But Ilya will never, ever, point out her clear anti-semitism and fascism.
(and speaking of inflation, who was the sole deciding vote on two major inflation causing spending bills?)
What about quotes and tweets from her 2020 primary campaign?
I gather we're supposed to pretend they don't exist, for reasons.
They were all bussed to Jungle Schools in Delaware
It isn't voter ignorance that is the problem.
It is elitist arrogance that is the problem with Ilya the Lesser.
So far people voting for Trump seems like a pretty big problem. Is that prof. Somin's fault somehow?
"So far people voting for Trump seems like a pretty big problem."
WTF does that even mean?
It means that Trump getting re-elected would be a problem for the international bureaucrats who want to impose a far-left world government.
One hardly needs a political philosopher to explain why the argument "The insurrection failed, so what's the big deal?" is idiotic.
Suppose I fire a gun randomly into a large crowd, but don't hit anyone. Do I just get off completely, because no one was hurt? If an attempted robbery fails, is it just, "No harm, no foul?"
IANAL, but I don't think so.
In both examples, it (D)epends on the DA.
That's like a scene from the vampire comedy Love at First Bite. Our would-be hero puts three silver bullets through a vampire's heart. Reminded that silver bullets are for werewolves he says to concerned onlookers "No harm done. The man's all right."
Do they give Nobel Prizes for Attempted Chemistry?
What's amusing about the insurrection argument, now that it's come out he did in fact give a verbal command to Milley to ensure extra security around Congress, is that for the insurrection to work at all even if the mob with over 200 FBI agents seeded through it got angry enough to actually properly storm the building, it requires Trump to have known both that Milley would outright ignore said command, and that most of the DC police stationed around Congress would be pulled away in the hours before by a guy leaving pipe bombs around that even with ALL the cameras in DC the FBI would never manage to identify, let alone catch. Because without those two things, there's no way the mob would have gotten anywhere if they did try.
I'll take "MAGA Fanfic" for $2,000, Alex.
Go bugger yourself sideways with an oversized rusty camping spork you TDS addled shitstain.
https://cha.house.gov/2024/9/transcripts-show-president-trump-s-directives-to-pentagon-leadership-to-keep-january-6-safe-were-deliberately-ignored
it requires Trump to have known both that Milley would outright ignore said command
Or, to the extent this story has any truth to it, it requires Trump to have wanted a bunch of soldiers on hand who, remember, were ultimately under his control, unlike the Capitol Police. He could've used them to "lock down" Congress "for their own safety," preventing them from certifying the vote that way.
I other words, it gave Trump the chance to turn Jan 6 into a military coup. Milley may have saved America.
Again, that's assuming any of this is remotely true in the first place.
That's "Heads I win, tails you lose"; Either Trump accedes to the Congressional refusal to accept National Guard help, in which case he's guilty because he didn't impose their presence anyway. Or he puts the National Guard there anyway, in which case he's preparing for a coup.
You've neatly excluded any interpretation where he's not guilty.
Right, a bunch of soldiers chosen by someone not in on his Sooper Geeneeyus plan after a term where most of the higher ups left over from Obama's terms in government actively worked against him. Yep, you're right, that's exactly what he tried to do. Wait... no... that's about as stupid as the idea that Jar Jar Binks was a secret Sith Lord.
Nobody ever said it was a super genius plan. It was a stupid stupid plan.
"I've never been a big believer in the wisdom of voters."
Oy. With any post that starts like that, if the next words don't start some version of "However..." it's going to go downhill fast.
This screed by Somin amounted to " the voters don't believe the same as me so they are ignorant." Such a good way to persuade people to vote your way.
On the plus side this screed tells me that Somin believes that Trump is likely to win.
"On the plus side this screed tells me that Somin believes that Trump is likely to win."
That does seem to be the "vibes" that are going out. There's enough herding going on with current polls that I'm a little more wary.
I agree. And why activate the Washington State Guard unless you think the LEFT is going to riot -- Seattle isn't MAGA country.
This screed by Somin amounted to ” the voters don’t believe the same as me so they are ignorant.”
Except, of course, that it does not. It amounts to "reading is hard", which is something your comment amply demonstrates.
You are having a hard time reading my post? Do you suffer from poor eyesight or are you truly unable to comprehend my clear and precise summation of Somin's screed?
Wow, more evidence that Martinned2 and Ilya are right.
So, essentiallly, we’re not just garbage, but stupid garbage for not supporting Harris. A little less elitist arrogance and some self-reflexion might be in order. Imagine, or try to imagine, that maybe, just maybe, some voters can take a different view of the issues without being ignorant garabage, or nazis, or racists, or whatever new insult is employed next.
Yes, Somin gives Russian Jews a bad name.
Humanity more like it.
Nobody’s been able to adequately explain their support of Trump so far. Is there some secret rationale they’re just not telling?
I believe you. Support for Trump is a big mystery to a lot of the population.
Cultists don't understand why others don't appreciate the wisdom of the cult leader. Others don't understand why cultists can't see through the leader. The two positions are not, however, equal.
Is preferring the state of the nation under the last republican administration over the current state of the nation under the democrat administration not adequate?
The economy was better
International relations were better
There were fewer federal regulations
There were lower taxes
Etc.
None of those things are true (and are easily verifiable), so no, it doesn't really fly.
No, you're stupid garbage for buying into nationalist nonsense.
In your opinion, who should a federal government prioritize? It's own citizens or citizens from other nations?
Don't be fucking silly. Communists and socialists also value their own citizens over others. Try again.
It's not that you're stupid for not supporting Harris. It's that you're stupid for supporting Trump. In other words, any non-stupid (or, non-racist, if you prefer) voter should be repelled by the idea [or, as Trump might put it, the notion of a concept of an idea] of Trump leading our country again.
Riva, your phrasing makes it sound like he is actually advocating for Harris. This might or might not be actually accurate. But I think the OP makes it clear that it's just not rational to vote for Trump. Yes, if he was running against actual Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao, then it would be rational to vote for Trump, as he would be, by far, the better of the two alternatives. But since the Dems have a normal Democrat as their candidate, then--the OP would argue--it's simply not rational to vote for Trump. Much like it's not rational to vote for rehiring the suicidal bus driver for a second trip...unless the only other choice was someone in the process of injecting heroin, or dosing on LSD, or was strapping a suicide vest on himself.
No, the Dems do not have a normal Democrat candidate. Harris had the most left-wing record in the Senate, while having a low IQ. Her VP record is nothing to brag about. Now she says she wants to build Trump's border wall, so no one knows what she will do. She is a much worse candidate than Obama, Hillary Clinton, Biden, Al Gore, or anyone else I can remember.
In summary - unqualified
Imagine Harris negotiating with Putin or the leaders of China or any other world leader.
It will be just as much her negotiating with world leaders as her negotiating with Congress. Which is none. She will be told what to do, what to say, and when to do so. That is why the party likes her because she obeys and she does what she is told without question.
While that is true — though lots of people support Trump because they're deplorable rather than stupid — we go through this periodically. Every single time Prof. Somin talks about political ignorance, commenters here (mostly on the right) misread that as an accusation of stupidity.
Ilya: “I was wrong because I didn’t realize how much righter I was than everyone else! I realize now, that everybody else is even wronger than me than I thought!”
Is he wrong?
According to the Magic 8 Ball: Without A Doubt!
Show your work (other than relying on a Magic 8 Ball, because that would seem to confirm Ilya's point).
Almost always, and especially in this case.
Another Trump is literally Hitler post.
The Democrats must be doing really badly if their candidate is in a close race with 'literally Hitler'.
Harvey, I think you are confusing "Democrats" with Trump's running mate, the deeply-conservative JD Vance. Vance is the only major political figure who has called Trump an actual version of Hitler. (Pointing out the many many times Trump speaks in fascist language is obviously not the same as equating Trump to Hitler himself.)
That was before Trump was President. His Presidency proved that he was not Hitler, and was in fact less authoritarian than Obama or Biden.
LOL. Well, at least you have a sense of humor about it. But I'll bite . . . can you link to where Vance went back to those people (to whom he had described Trump as Hitler) and said, "You remember when I said that Trump was America's Hitler? Well, golly gee whiz; was I wrong about that! Trump is not like Hitler at all . . . he's been a great president, and I'm proud and happy to admit how wrong I was."
No, I don't mean examples from the time after he was being considered for VP. I mean, during Trump's 4 years in office, of course. Or, hell, any time during Biden's first year or two in office.
Vance has admitted many times that he pre-judged Trump incorrectly.
Then you should have no problem linking us to a few of those examples (Obviously, BEFORE he was dependent on Trump for his political career. No one cares what any politician says about another, once it's in his political interest to now lie. That applies to Vance, and Walz, and any other political figure, of course.)
I'm looking forward to following those links. And I'm absolutely willing to eat crow, once you show us all those examples of Vance backtracking--that show Vance's change of mind *during Trump's presidency*, or shortly after.
Is that going to help you determine whether Trump is Hitler?
No, it proved to Vance that if he wanted a future in politics he needed to endorse Hitler.
Roger S - good point - Trump has demonstrated in first term that he is less authoritarian than most every leader in the democrat party.
Look at fuckhead Joe encouraging the anti-Semite with bald-faced lies!
You guys apparently have no clue what authoritarianism looks like in practice.
I didn't say "Democrats" were calling Trump Hitler.
"Later, the combination of the stab-in-the-back myth and conventional retrospective voting against the Weimar Republic government that presided over the Great Depression helped bring the Nazis to power."
I was talking about the OP.
Ask the Trumpist VP candidate whether his running mate is Hitler.
If you haven't noticed, this is all about immigration. Reason was funded to support unlimited Immigration. Somin is serving his Open Borders masters in attacking Trump, who has promised to deport illegals - he is the enemy to Somin and those he serves.
Every Somin post is all about immigration. He wants to destroy the USA with open borders.
The USA was founded with open borders.
Nope. Immigration is just an issue nationalists desperately try to push because they don't have any meaningful policy positions that are relevant to the average American. You guys are a fucking joke.
Uh, men in women’s sports?? Mary Katherine Smith is going to have to play against Harriett Balls!!
This is one if the most clueless, arrogant bit of writing I've ever encountered. "If you don't agree with me you are stupid" seems to be the only argument the Democrats have left, and insulting people is always a great way to get them to agree with you,
The question is just how much treason, criminal behavior, rape, and fraud does Trump have to engage in before you’ll admit you were wrong? How much damage does America have to endure?
Obviously the answer is “there’s no limit” because you’ll find some way to justify all of it. Blame it all on immigrants, or something. That’s the situation we find ourselves in.
Just imagine you were on the other side, and the Democrats had nominated, say, Jeffrey Dahmer. How would you go about convincing them that they were making a terrible mistake?
Trump is not even accused of treason, rape, or fraud, as those terms are legally defined. Yes, I know of some overzealous prosecutions, but it is all bogus and will not withstand appeal.
What would it take to convince me that he is like Jeffrey Dahmer? If he killed and ate someone.
Great. So you are smug, happly that Trump is only a violent sexual assaulter, and is not officially a rapist. As confirmed by a unanimous jury. But I'm sure you'll move that goalpost as well, and will explain why being confirmed as a violent sexual assault doer is not the same as being a violent sexual assault dude, or why it's just fine that Trump molested and assaulted Mrs Carroll. Or some other rationale, that somehow lets you look at yourself in the mirror each day, and somehow lets you think about voting again for Trump without throwing up a little in your mouth.
Whatever gets you though the night. You do you.
Carroll's accusation was that Trump raped her in a high-end NYC department store dressing room sometime in the 1980s or 1990s, as she was not sure of the year. No one saw or heard any of it, and no one reported anything. No, this does not happen, and only a fool would believe it. It is like claiming to be abducted by space aliens.
Now Trump says he’s going to inseminate women if they like it or not…literally like The Handmaid’s Tale.
With the internet, anyone can search what Trump said and see that you are lying.
With that kind of argument, shocking you weren't on Trump's legal team.
But perhaps his defense would've been more credible if he hadn't tried to use as his argument, "I wouldn't have raped her because she's not my type… even though she looks so much like my ex-wife that I confused them in a photograph."
(Pro tip: "I wouldn't have raped her because she's not my type" is pretty much never a good argument, even without the second half.)
You have to throw in the dig to opposing counsel conducting the deposition who is also female ...'by the way, you are not my type either."
How idiotic does one have to be to make that remark with a court reporter sitting there typing every word? Its mind boggling.
The woman who went to court over the SA accusation could not even nail down the DECADE it occurred in, and she went on national TV describing about how she loves her some rape fantasies.
We don't have to imagine. We literally have the Hunter Biden laptop and witness testimony extensively laying out the case that Joe Biden is corrupt and took money from China and from Ukraine. It's not debatable. The receipts are there.
Absolute crickets from the media and DOJ. Wonder why that is?
They had to invent new crimes for Trump to commit to actually charge him with something (lol), including fake "rape" charge from a serial rape-accuser.
Because you’re lying. There was no testimony anywhere that Joe Biden took any money from China or Ukraine. And nothing on the laptop to that effect either.
EDIT: Well, that's one of the things you're lying about. Another is that there was silence on the subject.
But the reason it isn't being talked about now, of course, is because Biden isn't running.
I hope professor Somin is aware that political ignorance also occurs among law professors. His colleague Josh Blackman is an "open" Trump supporter while Professor Volokh is a covert one. "Law professors for criminals"? Strange but true!
Trump combines the basic ignorance about facts that have long been a feature of the GOP with its penchant for unquestioning submission to one-man rule.
Compared to Harris, Trump is an encyclopedia of knowledge. I watched all her interviews, and she has yet to show any knowledge about anything.
Then how did she kick his ass in the debate? How was she able to turn Trump into a cowardly pussy in just 90 minutes? (Or is that another thing that you refused to admit to yourself?)
Harris did not answer any questions in the debate. She went in with memorized responses that had little to do with the questions. For example, the opening question was about whether people were better off than 4 years ago, and she just babbled about her childhood.
Man, Trump must really be a senile, retarded, pathetic old man, to get his ass handed to him by (by your totally unbiased determination) such an ineffectual woman. Thanks for making my point for me.
And yet she somehow scared Trump off from doing a second debate.
Trump agreed to a second debate, if before a neutral moderator. Trump did not like debating both Harris and the moderators.
Thats how I knew “45” would be “47”, not following the “You have to debate! Especially if you “lost” the first one” Conventional Wisdom Bullshit.
Repubiclowns need to boycott every Network except Fox News, and I’m not to sure about them. Just do appearances in public and on Joe Rogan/Steve Banyons Warroom
Give it a break, he refused an invite from Fox.
Accept the obvious, Trump is an old man who has to work on a greatly diminished campaign schedule. He simply isn't up for the stress of another debate.
"Not shitting the bed" does not equal "winning the debate"
Actually, I (sadly?) disagree…I think it does. I think it clearly does. Think back to this year’s Trump-Biden debate. Trump had a horrible debate. Filled with lies, digressions, rambling, etc. I’d give him a grade of D. But who won that debate? Trump. By a country mile. Because Biden was pathetic. Historically bad. Giving him a Fail grade is deceptive…because Biden was SO much worse than Trump, everyone called Trump the winner. And rightfully so.
In the Harris-Trump debate. She was, I felt, reasonably decent. A bunch of good moments, and bunch of bad moments (almost all when she was evasive about answering questions). But Trump–as has been eloquently put–shit the bed over and over. Since she did much much much much much much much much better than Trump; she won the debate by default. (It was de fault of Trump…rimshot!).
The Trump-Biden debate certainly told us that the popular media and other talking heads think that in a debate between a liar and someone who makes mistakes, the liar is the winner. Which is... something.
"Someone who makes mistakes"
Hahahahahahahaha!
As someone who is voting for an octogenarian, I'd have thought you would be a little more foregiving about signs of mental decline.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/15/trump-democrats-cows-windows
octogenarian /ŏk″tə-jə-nâr′ē-ən/
adjective
1.Being between 80 and 90 years of age.
2.Being between the age of 80 and 89, inclusive.
3.Of or relating to an octogenarian.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
I thought you were better with numbers.
Also, hyperbole is a thing.
Apologies, I misremembered Trump's age.
As for your final point: "abolishing cows" is hyperbole? How can you tell, other than wishful thinking?
You’re stupid as fuck
This is pure, unadulterated cope.
"A bunch of good moments"
LOL... which ones exactly? When WASN'T she evasive? Her answers were canned tripe that she memorized.
Ever wonder whey she always repeats the same answers to questions, and even morphs questions to answer something that wasn't asked? It's because she's giving the same fucking canned bullshit answers that her handlers have trained her on. She knows nothing else. Has no policy. It's also why she completely bombs EVEN IN SOFTBALL INTERVIEWS.
You're fucking delusional, lol
Um, are you 12 years old? That's SOP in American politics. (Not for Trump because he can't actually memorize anything other than namecalling. But for every other candidate.)
At least she had answers. Trump just had "weaving" aka nonesense.
She doesn’t even know her rap music, Mitt Romeney has more rhythm than that Cunt
Do you not have White people to hate?
As a "deplorable fascist garbage clinger" I find it very offensive to hear that those of us voting for Trump are politically ignorant. I can say for a fact that those I know voting for Trump are fully aware of the issues and why they are voting the way we are.
I do agree that there are many I know who are uninformed voters and vote purely on emotion. These folks are mostly voting for Harris.
A possible solution to the uninformed voter would be to fix our education system. We could bring back civics classes in K-12. We could once again require government studies and the Constitution to kids education. It would be good to replace utopian Marxist studies with economics and real science over junk science.
I can say for a fact that those I know voting for Trump are fully aware of the issues and why they are voting the way we are.
Yes I'm confident many of you do. He will fix the problems that the weak Weimar Republic bequeathed us, such as that people with no natural ties of blood to our country betrayed us in the war and continue to do so, and that racially inferior types are attempting to enter our lands. But our leader will eradicate them. The consequences of his policies may seem unpleasant but they are a necessary measure to make our Fatherland great again. Raise the flag!
Those reasons, though perhaps expressed slightly differently and in a more up-to-date version.
In the immortal words of Phisto Sobanii, Nazis are fake and gay. Ten yard penalty, repeat first down.
There's a lot of cope in this thread from the party of murdering squirrels and raccoons.
The fact that Harris will not lose in a landslide shows the folly America made in giving everyone the vote and in flooding America with third worlders. The Democrats start every election with 40% of the vote, as non-whites and single women bloc vote for Democrats. They only have to get 8-10% more in the campaign.
Translation: people who don't vote Republican shouldn't have the vote, because it's unfair, or something.
Not at all. Prior to the 1960s, plenty of people voted for Democrats. But back then, the Democrats had to have policies that were palatable to white men. Now they don't. They can lose basically all white men and still win.
?? Is this what "Logic for Racists" looks like?
No, it's what logic for people who realize that white men created and are essential to maintaining Western civilization looks like.
So by "no" you mean "yes."
It would be good to replace utopian Marxist studies with economics
Fucking joke. Anyone who knows economics knows that Trump's proposed economic policies are disastrously stupid. So yes, thise voting for Trump are in fact quite ignorant.
Economists are fucking Idiots, “Tariffs are a tax on the Consumer!!!” I guess that’s why every other fucking country has them, and Sleepy Joe never rescinded them, you don’t have to be an Economist to see which way the winds blowing your shopping cart of cash you’d need to by groceries(if people still used cash, another way to get people to not notice how expensive shit is)
As is the entire economic policies of the democrat party
Pro-tip: you'd look 1% less stupid if you'd learn to speak correctly. It's the Democratic Party. You'd still be one of the biggest jokes here because of your fake claims to expertise in every area, but at least you'd make it seem like you graduated from high school.
You mean the same policies that gave us a great economy during the first Trump presidency?
More cope
As a “deplorable fascist garbage clinger” I find it very offensive to hear that those of us voting for Trump are politically ignorant. I can say for a fact that those I know voting for Trump are fully aware of the issues and why they are voting the way we are.
You realise that that makes it worse, right? You can't necessarily help being ignorant, but being an authoritarian definitely makes you a deplorable garbage person.
Save your crying for November 6, concentrated Liberal tears taste so much sweeter
You forgot to yell that Trump is a religious Hitler Zionist pro-freedom Nazi pig.
It's not "deplorable garbage person," it's "deplorable fascist garbage clinger."
Imagine the lectures Alison has to hear from the windbag. If having him lay on top of her wasn't enough.
It is certainly true that a significant proportion of Republicans wrongly believe that the 2020 election was rigged or stolen, and anyone who so claims is either ignorant or lying.
It is also true that Americans seem unaware of the existence of an external global economy when it comes to things like inflation. I wonder how many Americans are aware that the inflation of recent years was a global not local phenomenon and that the US was less affected than many other Western economies.
It is certainly true that a significant proportion of Democrats wrongly believe that the 2016 election was rigged or stolen by Russians, and anyone who so claims is either ignorant or lying.
One leads to the other.
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
Then there's https://insertyourdesiredpartisansitehere.com
Literally links to prominent democrats denying the results of the election, in their own words...
What? That article’s sbout an effort to convince the actual, legal electors to vote for a particular candidate. That’s totally legal. It’s how the Electoral College works, dum dums. Futile, but legal.
They weren’t even doing it on the basis of a fradulent election, just on the basis of Trump being that bad.
You guys are really desperate to make yourselves feel better. “We’re evil, but the other side is evil too” is bad enough, but when it turns out that your evidence for the other side being evil is this flimsy… man, sad.
If you’re evil and you know it vote for Trump. If you’re evil and you know it vote for Trump. If you’re evil and you know it then your vote will surely show it If you’re evil and you know it vote for Trump.
That article’s sbout an effort to convince the actual, legal electors to vote for a particular candidate. That’s totally legal. It’s how the Electoral College works, dum dums. Futile, but legal
Read this section.
John Podesta, the Hillary Clinton campaign chairman whose Gmail account was reputed to have been successfully “phished” by fearsome Russian “hackers,” issued a statement demanding that electors be granted an unheard-of “intelligence briefing” — with the implication for what should be done with that “briefing” information too obvious to need stating outright
It is one thing for random people to ask Electors to change their vote, or to ask election officials to find more votes.
It is a whole other thing for intelligence agencies to grant an intelligence briefing to the Electoral College.
What were the Electors supposed to do with then information they would learn in a briefing?
Sadly, this would not be the last time intelligence resources would be used against Trump.
What? I'm not sure I get what would be so terrible about giving electors a briefing... also John Podesta isn't part of the government... also it didn't happen.
This is while Trump is on tape actually sharing and talking about classified documents with his random Mar-a-Lago buddies. But of course that doesn't bother you at all for... who knows why. Brainwashing is the only plausible reason.
Yeah, and Biden was sharing top secret information with his biographer, too. Nobody went after him about it. "Important" people in DC routinely violate national security laws, in and out of office, and get a pass for it. It's expected, and Trump expected, stupidly, to get that same pass.
That's the thing about selective prosecution; It's not that the target isn't technically guilty, it's that the prosecutors ignore people who are equally guilty, and only go after the guilty they don't like.
Maybe, but when the FBI comes, you give the documents back. If Trump had done that, which is what Pence and Biden did, he too would've gotten a pass.
Anyway, talking about sharing information and then not doing it can't possibly be a problem if actually sharing information isn't a problem to you.
Intelligence agencies were part of the government.
They had something more nefarious in mind.
They had something more nefarious in mind.
Having nefarious things in mind, and then not doing them, can't possibly be the bar. What are you even talking about.
Jamie Raskin’s already said this one is rigged
The general Democratic position is that when it came to the actual counting of votes, Trump won the EC but that the Russians interfered in the election in other ways. That's a position supported by actual, you know, facts.
And the general sane response is that the "Russian interference" was so slight relative to the scale of the campaign that it was spitting into a hurricane.
But, what Democrats hate to remember is that the Russians were playing both sides. They didn't care who won, they just wanted the nation to be ungovernable by the winner.
Nope.
A significant portion of Democrats actually believe that the Russians interfered directly in the election, and that their interference changed the results.
More cope.
Jimmy Carter is one of them.
The increase in the US money supply that preceded the inflation was not a global phenomenon.
It wasn't? Where, pray tell, did the money supply not massively increase in the 2010s? Here's Japan, for example: https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/money-supply-m2
You linked to a chart about the Japanese money supply. My comment referred to the US money supply.
12", you said it wasn't a global phenomenon. If governments all over the world were increasing their money supplies at the same time, that's evidence that it WAS a global phenomenon.
Mind you, the phenomenon was government all over the world making the same mistakes; We might ask why these days government mistakes across the globe are so correlated. Do different countries no longer have their own political cultures anymore, but instead are all ruled by politicians from some international political culture?
Sometimes seems like it.
I said the increase in the US money supply wasn't a global phenomenon, which, of course, it can't be.
Just because everyone is debasing their currency doesn't absolve us of responsibility when we do it.
I think “the US did the best out of everybody in the world managing their economy coming out of covid” is a pretty damn good endorsement of the Democrats.
Your point is… what? Maybe we could’ve done even better? Maybe. But we also avoided a recession. Lots of countries had inflation and a recession. I feel like even your Monday-morning quarterbacking would’ve led to a worse outcome.
The global supply chain collapsed for a while. The US, being a REALLY big country, is much less dependent on the global supply chain than small countries; More of our trade is internal.
So we did better in coping with supply chain problems, but it's not thanks to Democrats, it was just thanks to being really big, and thus unavoidably somewhat self-sufficient.
It is certainly true that a significant proportion of Republicans wrongly believe that the 2020 election was rigged or stolen, and anyone who so claims is either ignorant or lying.
I can understand why they believe that.
They have been told that the 2016 election was stolen by a few hundred thousand dollars’ worth of Facebook ads bought by the Russians®™ acting in concert and participation with Donald J. Trump.
The federal law enforcement and intelligence establishments gave the illusion of credibility to 2016 election trutherism.
Both the Clinton campaign and Kevin Clinesmith admitted to committing crimes to further 2016 election trutherism.
In 2018, two-thirds of Democratic voters felt that the Russians®™ actually changed the vote totals.
Think about it.
If this side was willing to violate campaign finance laws and laws against forgery on a delegitimization campaign against Trump, what wouldn’t they do to win the 2020 election?
"It is certainly true that a significant proportion of Republicans wrongly believe that the 2020 election was rigged or stolen, and anyone who so claims is either ignorant or lying."
It depends on what you mean by "rigged or stolen", I guess.
In a number of states election procedures were changed in a way that favored Democrats, and these changes were executed 'extra-legally', which is to say that the actual election laws on the books were violated. Often with the complicity of judges, but still contrary to the law.
Ballot harvesting, which is an easily abused practice, became endemic.
Zuckerberg laundered massive amounts of money for a Democratic GOTV drive, bypassing FEC monitoring, by donating the money to select election offices, and having them run the GOTV drive for the Democrats.
Social media platforms deployed extensive censorship to suppress true stories that hurt the Biden campaign.
None of this actually represented fraudulent ballots, of course, though some of it would have made fraudulent ballots hard to detect.
So, you could argue that the election wasn't, legally, "stolen", but it's perfectly reasonable to think there was enough unfairness about it that it was figuratively stolen. As the saying goes, sometimes the real crime is what's 'legal'.
Once more, Brett: judges, not Brett, decide what the law is. Also, changes that were implemented did not "favor Democrats." They were neutral; anyone could take advantage of them.
Also false. Zuckerberg's charity offered grants to any election offices, in Democratic or Republican-run jurisdictions, that applied and agreed to use the funds for increasing ballot access. That Republicans refused out of fealty to their Dear Leader was not Zuckerberg's doing.
In at least a few of those cases the judges didn't decide what the law was. They decided that even though the procedures didn't follow the law those procedures would be allowed anyway. Because reasons.
Because reasons.
Yes, for a really good reason, which is to prevent this game that the Republicans were trying to play.
Step 1. Republicans pass an election law that obviously violates the state constitution
Step 2. Wait
Step 3a. If Republicans win the election, claim victory
Step 3b. If Republicans lose the election, try to throw out the results by challenging their own law as unconstitutional
The courts rightly called bullshit on this strategy. If you want to challenge an election law, you can't wait until you lose! You have to do it far enough before the election that the election can still happen. Once the rules are finalized and the election happens, that's it. No reneging after the fact.
"Laches, bitches!"
"Once more, Brett: judges, not Brett, decide what the law is."
No, legislators decide what the law is. Judges are charged with upholding it, not deciding what it will be.
You can't hate the Ilya Somins of the world enough
His posts draw comments that are nearly all negative.
He is known as Ilya thge Lesser.
Had he participated in. Usenet newsgroup discussions back from the 1990's and 2000's, many of my allies would have run rings around him!
But he's fine with that, because we're all ignorant, after all.
I’m sure the 2020 Presidential election was as fair as any other recent Presidential election – that is, the “only” vote-rigging was committed on behalf of the duopoly parties in order to suppress third-party votes. So reassuring!
It's not rational to support *either* of the major-party candidates when both ignore the national debt and support (to a greater or lesser extent) Carthaginian-style child sacrifice.
For those who believed that they had to choose one of the major parties, then it's hardly self-evident that Harris is the Only Rational Choice.
Trump voters on Tuesday: Hold my beer.
I voted for Trump two weeks ago, as did my wife, a first time voter.
I can see how being drunk would make one more likely to vote for Trump.
Well, I certainly wasn't drunk when I voted for him.
Drunk or sober he had my vote this election, nobody gave me a viable alternative. I did vote against him in the primaries.
That's OK. Thanks to voters like you, maybe no one will ever get an alternative again. I can see how that would save you so much hard thinking.
Trump is old enough that even if he became dictator for life that would only be like one extra term. And even that's not going to happen. A third term is a bright line that pretty much nobody would stand for. Also people have been claiming "X won't leave office" for every two-term President since the Internet became popular, and they're always wrong.
And such a crime they stole the nomination from him
But Cums-a-lot drunk voted in the District of Colored People so it doesn’t matter
Somin is writing about fools such as you, so I don't see why you came here to announce the obvious decision you never had any intention of not making.
As the comments above demonstrate, many Trumpists don't care very much about democracy at all, so it makes sense that they wouldn't punish Trump for that.
Logically, there are two reasons why that could be the case:
- They just don't care about democracy. (They wouldn't be the only ones. Lots of people all over the world have supported non-democratic ideologies in the last few decades alone.)
- They ignorantly think that the Great Leader would back their wishes anyway. (E.g. by not giving government support to "those people".)
Given that motivated reasoning is a powerful drug (see the comments above), it's not obvious to me how you'd tell those two options apart. Nowadays even Putin feels the need to pretend to be democratically elected. Heck, even Iran and North Korea hold elections. (Only Saudi has a parliament that isn't elected, off the top of my head. Everyone else at least pretends.)
Go elect a shitty despot in your own country. Voters in this one already rejected Harris.
Also, you might want to review how the UK's House of Lords is populated. It isn't by elections.
We care about democracy with a stable homogeneous population.
Not with an increasingly third world population.
The United States has never had a stable homogeneous population. That’s why it’s always strong and growing, and not some aging, wilted shadow of former glory like some countries I could name. Will people never learn?
Trump is no angel.
But Kamala and and virtually every Democratic candidate or office holder is worse. No lie (by misrepresentation or omisdion) in service of their selected version of the “good” is an evil. Like all good totalitarians power beats truth every time.
Success forgives all moral defects IF they win.
Democrats are ruthless in the race for exclusive power. Republicans are stupid and spineless in their hope for for mutually shared good government.
In over 30 years of lobbying I have never heard a Democrat speak the words “good” in relation to government.
Trump, a non-politicisn, is the exception. He earns my vote.
In a democracy, what is worse than someone who wants to abolish democracy? Every other decision can be undone democratically, but not that one.
Too late, they stole the nomination from Sleepy Joe in July. RFK Jr got more votes than Cums-a-lot did
Stop prattling on about "living in a democracy". The US is not and never was one.
It has been a flawed one for much of the nation's history, excluding large swathes of the populace from participating (by wealth, race, sex, etc., but it has always been a democracy.
Shorter version from Somin:
"Everything that happened during the 4 years of Trump's Presidency was his fault.
Nothing that happened during the almost 4 years of the Biden/Harris Presidency was their fault.
Also, Trump supporters are ignorant and I don't understand why they don't agree with me."
And of course, he added in a sentence letting us know that unvetted masses of illegal aliens is good for our nation. I still wonder why Somin hasn't quit his job so that an illegal alien can be appointed to that position.
Des Moines Register Shock Poll! Cums-a-lot leading by 4% in DC
3 heavily DemoKKKratic Georgia counties (Fulton, Dekalb, Gwinnett) illegally kept accepting early ballots over the weekend (another county Clayton, didn’t only because they couldn’t get any county workers to work overtime)
Total of 105 ballots were turned in, not looking good for Cums-a-lot in Jaw Jaw
Frank
It's not illegal for them to accept absentee ballots the weekend before the election. "At any time after receiving an official absentee ballot, but before the day of the primary or election... the elector shall vote his or her absentee ballot..." - GA Code § 21-2-385.
You might be a Pencil-Neeked Geek if…………..
You take 15,000 words to say people who don’t agree with you are ignorant.
I find a major party Candidate who supports surgically removing the Sexual Organs of State Prisoners “Disqualifying”.
I don’t keep up with Alabama law, but pretty sure that wasn’t a legal sentence for any crime in Cums-a-lots California
Frank
The first thing anybody who bases an argument on their opposition's cognitive defects needs to admit is that they have blind spots, too. I've never seen Ilya admit that.
If you disagree with him, you're just wrong. The only thing worth discussing is why and how. That he might be the one who is wrong? Doesn't occur to him. That people who disagree with him might have a point or two? Doesn't occur to him.
That this robs everything he says of persuasive power, because his contempt for people who don't agree with him shines through in every word? Doesn't occur to him.
I didn't happily vote for Trump Saturday. It's hard to express just how much I'd rather have been voting for Rand Paul or DeSantis. I knew when I gave up on the LP that I'd be casting lesser evil votes, and "evil" is not a figurative turn in that phrase. I am under no illusions that Trump is a nice guy by normal "Not a Presidential candidate" standards.
But I am not under the illusion, as Ilya seems to be, that he's a cartoon villain, either. Ilya has adopted the presumption of guilt most of Trump's foes apply to him, everything he does or says, is alleged to have done or said, gets evaluated in light of a starting premise that he's a bad guy, so if you have two explanations available, the one where he's a bad guy is automatically right.
That's an easy mindset for Ilya to fall into, of course, because Trump's signature issue, illegal immigration, is something he is utterly obsessed about, and if Trump does win, it will largely be because the American people have comprehensively rejected Ilya's preferred immigration policies.
Better, I guess, to think Trump is some Svengali who has exploited the peoples' weaknesses, than to face the fact that the American people do not, and never will, agree with him about open borders.
It's a conclusion, not a presumption.
It's a presumption to the degree that it guides your interpretation of evidence, causing you to reject any interpretation that leave him innocent.
For instance, that call to Raffensperger: Trump asks for access to vote records, so his people can go looking for illegal votes, and hopefully find enough to change the outcome.
You read the same words, (Or more likely a widely disseminated paraphrase he never uttered.) and think he was demanding that Raffensperger manufacture votes for him.
Nobody would interpret those words that way if they didn't start out from a presumption of guilt, that the interpretation had to conform to.
You read the same words, (Or more likely a widely disseminated paraphrase he never uttered.) and think he was demanding that Raffensperger manufacture votes for him.
Even such a demand would not have been a crime.
""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances""
Merely asking, without doing more, is not and can not be a crime.
Now, let me address what I think is Ilya's primary argument: That Trump attempted to steal the election in 2020, and this disqualifies him from the office, either legally or morally.
First, let's be clear about what Trump did NOT do in 2020: He did not arrange for the Capitol to be attacked. Ilya is enough of a lawyer to be aware that absolutely nothing Trump said qualified as "incitement" by legal standards. The actual attack was a premeditated crime on the part of the Proud Boys, who were duly tried and convicted of that crime. They were under intense surveilance, so if Trump had at any point actually directed them to commit this crime, we would KNOW it.
The reason he has never been charged with inciting that attack is because there is no evidence that he did incite it. So, just stop already accusing him of the attack. At the level of guilt he holds for that attack, Harris and the Democrats are no less guilty of the various riots of the Trump years. Especially Walz, given the way he let the rioters just, well, run riot.
What Trump was actually doing was applying political pressure on members of Congress to exercise discretion in his favor during the counting of the EC votes. The fake electors were simply to provide Congress with an opportunity to do this, they were not fraud because no effort was made to deceive anybody about them not being the actually state certified slates.
Now, I think this was morally wrong, that he should have given up his EC challenge after the EC voted. I think that the EC count is a ministerial act, and members of Congress do not properly HAVE the discretion Trump was urging them to exercise.
Does Congress think they have that discretion? Yes. Would the Court rule that they have it? Maybe, maybe not. But I am satisfied that it was wrong of him, though probably not illegal.
The problem is, it was not uniquely wrong of him.
In 2016, as Ilya is doubtless aware, an effort was made to suborn Trump's electors. The Clinton campaign was supporting this effort. Yes, it failed, so did Trump's scheme. Has Ilya endlessly obsessed about how evil this effort was? Not to my knowledge.
Going further back, in 2000, Gore attempted to steal the election in Florida, by a partial recount scheme which, had it worked, would have had him declared the winner there even though he'd actually gotten fewer votes. I don't recall Ilya going on and on about how horrible Gore was.
Politics is a dirty business, and Trump is not clean. Voting for him is a lesser evil vote, and that 'evil' is not a metaphor. But he is not so uniquely awful that policy considerations have to be ignored. Harris is pretty awful in her own ways.
So, while I'm not happy this was the choice I confronted, I don't feel particularly guilty about voting for Trump. Just sad that, once again, I've been confronted with an election where I disliked both the major party candidates.
The consensus three years ago was that Trump was trying to take advantage of ambiguities in the Electoral Count Act. So Congress amended that law in order to block such an attempt.
So Congress changed the law as an admission that Trump had a possibly valid legal argument.
In 2016, as Ilya is doubtless aware, an effort was made to suborn Trump’s electors. The Clinton campaign was supporting this effort.
That is an understatement, as the camopaign called for an "intelligence briefing" of the Electoral College. It was legally dubious that either the FBi or the CIA or the NSC had the authority to hold such a briefing.
And the only purpose it had was to persuade Trump's electors to not vote for him. What was the point in them being briefed about anything, if they were just going to be rubber stamps?
You know what the problem with voting is?
The voters.
Especially the ones who don't vote the way I do.
Relax, Somin.
The non-entity that is your preferred candidate has a good chance of winning.
Despite none of you actually liking her enough that she could ever win a presidential primary.
The good news?
If she doesn't win this election, you guys can always run her again in 4 years. I mean, since primaries don't mean anything to your team anymore.
In Med School we used to joke that hospitals would be great places if it wasn't for all the stupid patients.
One thing that can never be underestimated -- Ilya Somin stupidity.
Quote: "One hardly needs a political philosopher to explain why the argument “The insurrection failed, so what’s the big deal?” is idiotic." One minor rowdy demostration, even at the Capitol, does not an insurrection make. If so then all of the Democrats are entirely disqualified from office for their "Summer of Love" riots that resulted in over 2 Billion dollars worth of insured property damage and god only knows how much uninsured damage plus over two dozen lives lost. Also the so-called Commander In Chief had stated on various occasions that 'if you are going to take on the government (have an insurrection) then you need F35s, nukes and tanks, not AR15s' and none of those weapons were present in the ranks of unruly demonstrators.
How is rational ignorance "a sad state of affairs." If a voter decides that they have the information they need to vote, why does Ilya get to disagree?
I've been trying to remember which well known Political Scientist said that there's a dirty little secret in Poli Sci that no one wants to mention, that the electorate are "a box of rocks". Aachen and Bartels cover this subject in detail in "Democracy for Realists". Many writers note that it's not just ignorance, that better informed, intelligent, partisans simply construct more elaborate rationalizations. For which, see comments above. I would add that while ignorance is bipartisan, one of our parties suffers from the ignorance of the electorate and the other depends on it.
Really, the only answer is the one our political class have utterly rejected, won't even allow on the table: Minimizing the size of government to the point where the voters can actually follow what they're voting on.
"failing to punish politicians who seek to overturn elections by force and fraud incentivizes more such behavior" -- THIS. All else is secondary. You like Republican policies? Your ability to enact and implement them depends on having mechanisms to definitively resolve election disputes in a peaceful way. The only practical way to do that is to agree in advance that courts will resolve election disputes, and that we'll all live by their rulings. If efforts to change official election results through non-judicial means aren't repudiated, more politicians will try them, some will succeed, and our orderly system of government will break down.
+1
A common refrain from Nevertrump Republicans is that if Trump loses again, the Republican party can reset and pick someone better next time.
The problem with this philosophy is that Trump has a lot of support from working class people and others who are tired of the Republican establishment selling them out for the past 50 years.
Those people are not just going to blindly vote for the Republican. Meaning that if the party returns to the days of nominating wet rags like McCain or Romney who ultimately sell out conservatism, those people will stay at home.
The Nevertrumpers don’t realize that they need those people, or they will never win another election. I’m not saying Trump is a good solution, but the GOP establishment may want to do some examination as to why Trump is so popular among 30-40% of the population.
McCain or Romney who ultimately sell out conservatism
Whereas... Trump never claimed to be conservative in the first place so there's nothing to sell out?
As far as I can tell, conservatism is simply dead. It appears that no one ever took it seriously. Not voters, who embraced a borrow-and-spend populist the first chance they got, nor the politicians, who like you said, never seemed all that interested in getting conservative stuff done once in office.
Well, of course conservatism is dead.
Think about that word, "conserve"; You're protecting what you have.
Once you've lost it, and are trying to win it back, you're not conserving anymore. If you're conserving at THAT point, you're defending the foe's victories!
The GOP has been fundamentally broken at the federal level for all my life. It all goes back to that long period in the early 20th century where Democrats had basically uninterrupted control of Congress. Except for 4 years in the House, and 10 years in the Senate, Democrats dominated Congress from 1935-1997.
As a result, the only way Republicans in Congress could get anything done at all, was to suck up to the Democrats. On their own they were helpless. For over 60 years, the only way a Republican in Congress could be effective was to suck up to Democrats!
Small wonder that the federal GOP had a serious case of Stockholm syndrome, and even though they were in control better than half the time after 98, kept on sucking up to Democrats and taking dives, whenever they thought their constituents wouldn't notice.
The problem with this election is that both major party candidates are unsuitable to serve.
Now, I'm willing to vote Libertarian (Chase Oliver). But a key issue is that most of the public is ignorant of either the existence of third parties or, in the alternative, any real knowledge about those third parties. They're sold on there only being two choices. That's not just political ignorance, that's intentionally fostered political ignorance (as the major parties want you to be ignorant about third parties and do everything in their power to keep them off ballots and out of debates).
(Honestly, the sole bright spot of a Trump win would be he'd be ineligible to run again afterwards. Otherwise we risk ending up in a William Jennings Bryan situation, where Trump might maintain a stranglehold on the party for multiple elections where he continually clinches the nomination and loses the general. A Trump win would at least force the Republican party to move on.)
===========
On political ignorance more generally, as we're going through the process of voting, I notice my ballot is 95% judges. As not a lawyer, I have no personal knowledge of any of these judges. There's little-to-no news coverage about them (and local news is a rare beast these days). You have to really screw up as an elected judge to get any real news coverage at all. I don't trust the ABA or other lawyer groups to make objective recommendations (because they have an interest in the outcomes).
So, I could try to learn something about the ~90+ judges on my ballot, which is a lot of work, or... well, i'm voting 'no' on all of them this year. Theory: most people will just vote yes. If a judge is actually a problem, this creates a high barrier to remove them. Voting 'no' reduces that barrier and the amount of activism needed to educate the electorate to remove them. If a judge is not a problem, the default 'yes' most people will cast will make my 'no' irrelevant.
He's ineligible to run now, but that hasn't stopped him. And it wouldn't in 2028. (He said just yesterday that he never should've left the White House on 1/20/21!)
He has not been convicted of insurrection, so, no, he is NOT ineligible to run now.
Which the divided Supreme Court determined unanimously. Don't forget that
They didn't rule that he's eligible. They only ruled that there's no mechanism for enforcing his ineligibility.
One possible outcome is that Trump wins, but the Democrats win the House and hold on to 50 / 50 in the Senate. Then, while Kamala is still VP, they get rid of the filibuster and pass a law enforcing the 14th Amendment, with Kamala as the tie-breaking vote, and Biden signing it.
Of course, that would leave us with President Vance. The prospect of President Vance is probably what would save Trump in this scenario. He was a good pick at least as insurance policies go. (On the other hand, there's a theory going around that Musk, Vance, and Thiel plan to 25th-Amendment Trump and take over as a de facto kleptocracy.)
"They only ruled that there’s no mechanism for enforcing his ineligibility."
On the contrary. They absolutely identified such a mechanism: Convicting him of insurrection under the federal statute, which they ruled is currently the only procedure for imposing ineligibility that Congress has in place. There used to be a civil procedure, too, but Congress repealed it in 1948.
It's not the Court's fault that the DOJ has never charged Trump with insurrection. The DOJ just looked at the case, and concluded they didn't have the evidence to convict.
I think there’s another factor at work.
Far more people than we might have thought are motivated by what will give them status. They imitate and follow others far more often than we might have thought. This means their political and intellectual personalities are not fixed. They become different people when the people perceived as able to give power and status changes.
They support democracy when the status thing to do is to support democracy. When they can gain status by opposing democracy, they oppose democracy.
Maybe YOU are the ignorant one. Has that thought occurred to you?
One of the under-reported examples of political ignorance is the (mistaken) belief that immigration restrictions are somehow unconstitutional or otherwise illegitimate.
Nobody thinks that, not even Ilya. They do think it's up to Congress, and not just the President acting alone, to set those restrictions.
Ilya certainly claims to think that.
He says immigration restrictions are generally ill-advised. Not that they're blanket unconstitutional or otherwise illegitimate.
But many Germans actually doubled down on nationalism and imperialism because of the "stab in the back" myth that held that Germany only lost the war because of betrayal by Jews, leftists, and others.
In the comments section of the Cleveland Plain Dealer back after the 2016 election, my longtime Usenet ally, Christopher Charles Morton, compared Dem activists whining about Russian®™ interference to the Stab in the Back®™ conspiracy theory. He compared them to the German ultrarightwing circa 1919. He predicted they would eventually blame the Jews®™.
He and we found out just how right he was.
But we could not have predicted at the time that the Dems would use federal law enforcement and intelligence resources to lend the illusion of credibility to their Stab in the Back®™ narrative, and undermine the peaceful transfer of power.
The Clinton campaign funded the Steele Dossier, and then falsified records to hide the source of the funding, which they later admitted to the Federal Elections Commission.
A lawyer for the FBI actually forged evidence for the purpose of obtaining a warrant against Carter Page.
Chris could not have predicted how far Trump's opponents would go.
Perhaps I am misremembering, but I thought the book about voter ignorance praised it as reasonable and appropriate? Did you not argue that nobody can keep track of everything?