The Volokh Conspiracy
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Two Sentences I Never Thought I'd Write
How to pick your poison.
The first sentence: "I hope the Yankees win the World Series."
I was born in 1951 in Brooklyn, and grew up there, leaving for college in 1968. I was a very passionate Dodgers fan, as was pretty much everyone else I knew. Several Dodger players lived in our neighborhood, including the great Gil Hodges, after whom my elementary school, formerly PS 193, is now named. The Dodgers in the '50s were easy to love: Hodges, Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, PeeWee Reese, Duke Snider . . . a fabulous squad that made the World Series four times in the 50's ('52, '53, '55, and '56), winning their first and only title, gloriously, in the thrilling 7-game 1955 Series versus the Yankees.
I was devastated when the Dodgers abandoned Brooklyn after the 1957 season. Though I was only six years old, I remember it vividly; it was the first time in my life that I understood that the world could be a cruel, cruel place. I swore never to forgive them for the betrayal, and I never have.
There's the famous story of Jimmy Breslin and Pete Hamill, two hard-boiled New York City news reporters hailing from Queens and Brooklyn, respectively, having drinks at a bar when they consider the question: who were the three most evil people in human history? Each writes down his choice on a napkin out of sight of the other, and when they look at the two napkins they're in total agreement: Hitler, Stalin, and Walter O'Malley, the Dodgers' owner who took the Dodgers out to the West Coast. Exactly how I felt.
Loving the Dodgers in the '50s meant hating, with all your heart, the Yankees. The Yankees were the implacable foe, having beaten the Dodgers in the World Series in six of their seven meetings ('41, '47, '49, '52,'53, and '56). While the Dodgers were building their formidable squad in the late '40s/early '50s, the Yankees were, alas, a step (or two or three) ahead of them, far and away the best team on the planet; between 1949 and 1961 they won eight World Series titles, with a awe-inspiring lineup - Mantle, Berra, Moose Skowron, Whitey Ford, Roger Maris, Tony Kubek, etc. etc. - all of whom I detested with every bone in my young body. The idea of switching allegiance to them - they were, after all, the only team left in NYC after the Giants followed the Dodgers out west in 1958 - was absurd, and I can't remember a single person from my childhood who did so.
In 1941, the Germans invaded Russia. So, given the choice between Hitler and Stalin, who do you root for? We chose Stalin - clearly, at the time, the lesser of two evils. So I'm going for the Yankees; their crime - being spectacularly good for an amazingly long period of time - does not reach the depths of the Dodgers' immorality.
Predictably enough, given that the baseball gods have rarely been kind to me, the one time I'm rooting for them, they stink, having apparently forgotten how to hit.
The second sentence (in a more serious vein): "Tens of millions of my fellow-citizens - perhaps even a majority - appear to be poised to elect, as President, a man who tried to overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States."
I cannot wrap my mind around it. As anyone who has read my postings in the past is well aware, I'm no fan of Donald Trump. For any number of reasons - the compulsive lying, the hate-infused rants, the fact that he was the first President since Herbert Hoover to have left office with a net job loss during his four years as President, the shameful kissing-up to Putin and Kim Jong Un, his tariff policy, the threats to pull out of NATO, . . . - I think he was a terrible President during his first term and would almost certainly be a terrible President the second time around.
But put all of that aside. I get it - people have divergent views about all of those things. That's just politics.
But I would have thought that the vast majority of Americans would view attempting to overthrow the government through unconstitutional means as a total disqualification for holding the highest office in the land, and would not countenance casting their vote for anyone who participated in such an attempt.
Do the folks pulling Trump's lever not believe that he was a willing and active participant in the overthrow scheme, involving, as it did, the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, the pressure on Vice-President Pence to single-handedly overturn the election results, the "fake elector" schemes, the threatening phone calls to State election officials? Or do they view all that as not being of sufficient moment to disqualify someone from getting their vote for President - perhaps formally, via Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, or just as a matter of common sense and a sense of duty to their fellow-citizens?
Like I said, I don't understand it. I'm hopeful that one of my readers can explain to me which of those possibilities is closer to the truth of the matter, and why, in either case, we shouldn't be terrified about that.
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“perhaps even a majority”
You’re going to be pleasantly surprised here. As for why, I truly cannot say— I’ll let them speak for themselves… I’m sure the whole horde of flying monkeys will be along shortly.
As for the yanks, nah. Even Fat Joe bombed. Dodgers win tonight and my Mets were plausibly the second best team this year.
As for your second sentence ... it's the normalization of troll culture. KANT TELL ME WUT 2 DO! IMA OWN DA LIBTARDS!
I do my best to try and ignore it. Most Americans are good people when you can get them talking about NOT POLITICS.
As for the first sentence? If the Yankees were playing a team entirely of Hitlers, I might have to think about it for a second... but I would root for the Hitlers.
Yankees suck.
If Trump wins, we can’t ignore its consequences.
Oh, I know, trust me. I honestly still can't believe we are at this point.
But all I can do is vote and hope the madness passes. As we see here, things like "facts" and "please verify your sources" just don't have much of an impact.
Haters gonna hate. At the root of Donald Trump's appeal to his followers is that he hates the same people they do.
Funny how about 90% of the Harris campaign is based on hatred for Trump.
Well, even were it true (it's not), at least it's hate for one person instead of campaign about 90% based on hate for "the left", immigrants generally, Haitian immigrants in particular, Puerto Ricans, fictional communists, LGBTQ people, women, especially, but definitely not limited to, women who would exercise their right to make choices about their body, "RINOs", Liz Cheney, anyone who dares tell the emperor he lost the 2020 election, Joe Biden, and, of course, Kamala Harris. Yes, there is 10% that is not hate, but it consists of tariffs, love of Putin, love of Kim Jong Un, love of Xi, and love of Dear Leader.
I'll take 90% hate of an amoral, mentally unfit, psychopath and pathological liar.
NOVA Lawyer : "... an amoral, mentally unfit, psychopath and pathological liar."
For someone who is an empty shell of pathological disfunction, Trump can be remarkably hard to sum-up. I think this an apt description, though it doesn't touch on his lifelong criminality:
No books, No reading,
No friends, No music,
No curiosity, No patience,
No integrity, No compassion,
No empathy, No loyalty,
No conscience, No courage,
No manners, No respect,
No character, No morality,
No honor,
Not even a dog.
You monumental dick. He was shot, stood up and told people to fight. He went to his nominating convention a couple days later. He was shot at again, told a joke and soon just continued on with his campaign.
He was not shot at again, and you know it. But you can’t help yourself. Like Trump, you lie shamelessly, even when the truth would suffice.
It's called "hallucinations" when it's an AI.
That’s your response? Presidency Trump is shot and shows nothing but courage but you whine that shots fired in his vicinity in a second assassination attempt can’t be called being “shot at”? Could you all possibly be more complete a-hole clowns? Yeah probably.
No, when your own security are shooting at the sniper, it can't be called "being shot at". That's pretty basic.
So far there have been 2, possibly 3 assassination attempts, (One may have just been somebody forgetting they were packing their gun.) but only the one involved Trump being shot, and shot at.
Obviously all the facts surround both assassination attempts have yet to be disclosed. I would not necessarily accept your version as definitive. But even if it were, it's an absurd minor detail you all are obsessing over. It doesn't in any way affect my main point. That President Trump showed courage after being shot and showed courage in a second attempt involving a gunman hiding in wait for hours and shots fired. It's like disputing what President Trump had for breakfast or what color his shirt was. And an attempt to distract from the original dickhead's comment with his ranting dehumanizing insults.
"President Trump showed courage after being shot and showed courage in a second attempt involving a gunman hiding in wait for hours and shots fired."
Come on, now. Trump was just playing golf -- which hardly requires "courage" -- and the only shot fired was by the Secret Service.
But as Ronald Reagan said, facts are stupid things.
No. Deranged anti-Trump comments are stupid. A fact simply objectively reflects reality. Are you disputing that President Trump was shot? Are you disputing that there were 2 assassination attempts? Now dickhead's dehumanizing insults above are simply the opinions of a dickhead, not facts. Feel free to jump on the dickhead train if you want, but such comments ain't going to help the Harris campaign train wreck. Just trying to be helpful because I'm a nice guy.
There were indeed two assassination attempts. Donald Trump was shot at during the first, not during the second. The Secret Service thwarted the second attempt before Trump came within range of the would-be gunman.
To a bot, being shot at, or not being shot at, is just a "minor" difference.
Thanks for your input bat shit crazy guy but there are already more than enough dickheads on this comment chain. We have reached dickhead capacity so you’ll have to leave.
No music?
wat da fuck? He opens every rally with "God Bless the USA" and finishes with "Macho Man" (Body-Body!)
he literally just got lamb-basted on National Pubic Radio, Pubic Broadcasting System, PMS-NMC for playing music for 35 minutes instead of taking questions on the "Ish-yews"(anybody not know where "45" stands after 10 years?)
and he drove a 60's GTO (I deduct performance points for it being a Convertible, and most likely an Automatic, but still)
Frank
Just remember, when the communists take over, educators are the second group up against the wall.
Fortunately that's not a thing that's going to happen before the heat death of the universe.
I'll check back with you after the election is called - - - - - - - -
Which election? The US Presidential election? Are you nuts? There are no communists in this election. (And arguably the whole concept of a communist participating in an election is a contradiction.)
https://reason.com/2020/11/02/kamala-harris-equality-equity-outcomes/
Yes, that in no way resembles communism.
What a weird claim.
Even if you believe that current politics is not going towards communists (or more broadly, authoritarians), the course of human history is that while the moral arc of the universe may slowly bend towards justices, it wobbles a lot on the way there.
Which is to say, taking the long view, basically all empires have stints at authoritarian tyrannies. The idea that the US (or whatever the US becomes) has no such future stings is idealistic at best.
O, there is definitely a risk of the US being taken over by authoritarians. That's what prof. Post wrote about above.
But communism is past, done, gone. Unlike fascism, it's a concept of the 20th century. As (the thankfully alive) Francis Fukuyama explained more than 30 years ago, it is well and truly defeated in the marketplace of ideas. There's not a single communist country left in the world today, and there won't be ever again.
Ah. You took the "communist" part literally.
In America, the vast majority of people can't meaningfully differentiate between communist, fascist, and so-on, and use such terms fairly interchangeably as insults without consideration whether that's really the right term for their intent.
As such, when I read longtobefree's comment I did not take it literally, and took it as a broad "bad government I don't like".
The disagreement is understandable.
To be fair, there is essentially zero reason for the average person to differentiate between communist, fascist, and so on. It’s like caring whether you’re going to be shot or clubbed to death; The details may differ, the end result is the same.
The people this distinction really matters to are the communists and fascists. And the pedantic, of course.
The big thing is the appeal and rise of right and left wing authoritarian regimes are very different.
If you want to avoid or oppose these movements, you should understand the distinction.
You want to pretend there is no such thing as right wing authoritarianism, for reasons that are increasingly obvious to all.
But a moment's thought or historical study reveals that asymmetry to have a lot of counterexamples.
"The big thing is the appeal and rise of right and left wing authoritarian regimes are very different."
Yes, it's perfectly true that communists and fascists have PR differences. They use different appeals. What they do once in power is not all that different, because the mechanics of running a totalitarian state force the actual behavior to converge. Some cosmetic differences remain, but they're pretty much just cosmetic.
One shouldn't really confuse authoritarian and totalitarian regimes, though. Neither is good, but it's like the difference between the flu and cancer. So far every communist state has been totalitarian, not merely authoritarian.
That's not PR - politics is perception. These are different reasons why they are dangerous and alluring. You ignore that at your peril.
You seem uninterested in anything beyond 'living under both is bad.' That's shallow as hell.
By your own logic, worrying about which shade of dictatorship you're under seems useless.
I'm pointing out that the average person has no reason to care about anything beyond "living under both is bad". The differences in how they're bad are marginal enough to be of concern only to pendants and ideologues.
I am, of course, both, so are you. But most people aren't, so don't expect them to make that distinction, it's not important to them why somebody is screwing with them, just THAT somebody is screwing with them.
"educators "
Post is just at CATO, he's safe, even Reds don't waste bullets on such a non-entity.
Weird, because MAGAs are the ones sending death threats to school teachers and calling for the execution of professors.
"Do the folks pulling Trump's lever not believe that he was a willing and active participant in the overthrow scheme, involving, as it did,
the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, the pressure on Vice-President Pence to single-handedly overturn the election results, the "fake elector" schemes, the threatening phone calls to State election officials?"To be clear, I think Trump was a willing and active participant in a scheme that involved fake electors, and politically threatening calls, with the aim of getting Congress, not just Pence, to wrongfully exercise discretion in the course of a ministerial task.
And that's bad, but it's bad in the same way the effort to suborn Trump electors in 2016 was bad.
I do not remotely believe that Trump was a willing and/or active participant in the attack, as not only did it terminate his actual plans, but predictably so.
Do I really have to go into how incredibly, mindblowingly STUPID it is to think that Trump planned that attack? Really?
You might politically intimidate Congress into certifying the wrong guy the winner, and expect it to stick because the next election you're threating them with is a couple years off. You can't physically intimidate them into doing so. Because you can't sustain the physical intimidation, and even if successful in the 1st instance, the moment it's no longer maintained Congress would repudiate the vote, declare the right guy winner, and refer you for prosecution for insurrection.
It's not even a good movie plot! It's so stupid you couldn't even write a B movie plot around it!
And this is without addressing the fact that the people who did actually plan the attack, and were prosecuted and convicted for it, the Proud Boys, were under intense surveillance for months prior to the attack, and if at any time they had gotten direction from Trump to do it, the FBI would have had it on tape, and we'd have long since found out about it during, yes, Trump's insurrection trial. Which never happened, because no actual evidence that he planned this exists!
Indeed, if you were to blame the attack on anybody but the Proud Boys, it would be the FBI, not Trump. They're the ones with people inside the Proud Boy leadership, in constant communication.
To be clear, I think Trump was a willing and active participant in a scheme that involved fake electors, and politically threatening calls, with the aim of getting Congress, not just Pence, to wrongfully exercise discretion in the course of a ministerial task.
So then why on earth would you vote for this guy???
Because I think that, on a policy level, Harris is a lot worse. And some of those policies have a lot to say about whether our future elections will be meaningfully free.
Let me be clear about this: *I* think that Congress has no discretion in counting the EC votes, that it's a purely ministerial act. Does *Congress*, officially, think that? No. Would the courts rule that? Maybe not.
So, I think Trump was doing something wrong, but I don't think it's remotely clear he was doing something illegal. And I'm always, since I gave up on voting third party, choosing between people who do things I think are wrong. This isn't a difference of type as I see it.
Three Points :
1. Fairly well reasoned out, so kudos for that. There was one silly attempt at excusatory whataboutism, but I see that as unconscious reflex.
2. Please remember, Donald Trump is deeply, deeply stupid. If it wasn’t for daddy’s millions, he’d be on a street corner running some petty three-card monte con.
3. But he had a plan, however crudely thought-out: Create enough chaos, delay, and noise to disrupt the post-election process from proceeding, and then (Trump thought) “his” congressmen, and “his” judges, and “his” justices would intervene in his favor.
He said so before a roomful of witnesses in the infamous 27Dec20 meeting aimed at getting DOJ officials to lie to several states about nonexistent “investigations” and “evidence of fraud”. This was supposed to push those states to delay certification, but Trump was told there was no evidence of voting fraud or grounds to investigate. He didn’t care. He demanded the head of Justice lie anyway. “Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen”, he replied.
There’s a reason Trump has never put forth a consistent case for fraud from one audience to the next: There is none and he knows it. That’s why Rogan laughed at DJT’s rambling word-salad gibberish after Trump was pressed to make his case: It’s all a huckster scam in which consistency, reason, and facts are completely irrelevant. Even after four years, Trump still hasn’t bothered to build a case longer or more substantive than required to hustle a crowd over a few minute’s speech.
So he didn’t need to intimidate Republicans into installing him over the election’s winner. Per Trump, all he had to do was destroy the normal process and (per Trump) they would have an excuse to do so on their own. Don’t forget: Someone who’s a lifelong criminal and corrupt in every cell of his body assumes all those around him lack ethics too. He thought all the GOPers were as lawless as himself.
And Post’s point above still stands : You – Brett Bellmore – will vote to elect as Presiden a man who tried to overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States.
You’ll need a Mt Everest of whataboutisms to justify that!
Bellmore is also a man who is utterly horrified by the thought that a single illegal immigrant might escape harsh punishment, no matter what.
But Trump's law-breaking is no big deal.
I have a theory about Brett (bless his heart). If Trump finally decides to shoot a random stranger on Fifth Avenue and Mr. Bellmore is the only wittness, this would be his statement at the precinct:
“Yes, officer, I saw Trump aim a handgun. And, yes, I heard him yell, “die, loser” followed by the sound of a gunshot. And, yes, I saw the victim fall to the pavement with a bullet wound. But I didn’t actually see the bullet go from the gun to victim, so can’t say Trump shot him.”
See, what is & isn’t evidence or a crime is an elastic concept to our fellow commentator. As I understand it, Einstein held mass increases as you approach the speed of light until it becomes infinite and the speed of light can’t be attained. We have a similar phenomena here: Per Brett, as evidence approaches Trump, the standards of evidence become more & more demanding until infinity is reached and the evidence can never reach its target. Hell, I'd be surprised if Brett hasn’t worked out the math on this!
"2. Please remember, Donald Trump is deeply, deeply stupid."
Please try to remember that if Donald Trump was actually deeply, deeply stupid, you would never have heard of him.
If Donald Trump was deeply, deeply stupid, what does that say about the Democratic party not being able to beat him in 2016? Coming within 43k votes of losing to him in 2020? Looking, at best, at a squeaker in 2024?
You know what's deeply, deeply stupid? Believing your own trash talk.
Trump can do an interview, and answer questions. Harris is entirely unable or unwilling to answer any questions.
No, he can't. He is utterly incoherent when pushed on any specific policy. He's incoherent when he isn't pushed. It's word salads, sharks, and windmills. Oh, and tariffs that "the Chinese" or whoever, but never American consumers, will pay. Which, of course, is deeply, deeply stupid.
And you think Harris is intelligent? No, listen to both, and Trump is obviously a lot smarter.
Absurd. You can’t listen to Harris and Trump and conclude that Trump is smarter. He can’t make any type of argument. Harris can. And her academic credentials are better than his.
When? Where? I have listened to the Harris interviews, and she never answers a question, or makes any coherent point. She only rambles about herself, or recites standard Trump-hater talking points, or makes some ridiculous argument like fighting inflation by stopping grocery stores from price gouging.
IT DOESN'T MATTER, IT'S ALL A DISTRACTION. VOTE FOR THE ONE THAT DOESN'T WANT TO ABOLISH US DEMOCRACY.
Uh huh. We’re talking about someone who can’t speak intelligently on any topic, at any instance, for even the briefest lenght of time. We’re talking someone who needed his briefing books turned into comics to secure his attention. We’re talking about someone who talks at the level of an elemetary school child. We’re talking about someone who makes a fool of himself whenever he tries to get “intellectually adventurous”, with loony-toon rants on electric boats, sharks, and Hannibal Lector.
As for his winning, so what? For his hardcore supporters, the fact Trump is deeply stupid is a feature, not a bug. No eggheads for them, no siree! How ’bout you try and produce a single bit of evidence this moron could think his way out a wet paper bag?
And good luck with that! But don’t bring up his business acumen unless you want to be drowned in laughter. If Trump had taken the millions daddy kept pumping into this hopeless cause down to the local Charles Schwab, that would saved Fred a fortune in bungled-away millions.
Indeed, it’s precisely because Fred Trump eventually put his loser son on a leash that we “know” Donald so well. Because that’s when DJT learn to hustle & scam so well. You see, I do grant the imbecile a certain low-cunning in exploiting the gullibility & weaknesses of others.
But that doesn’t take intelligence, Brett. The world is full of deeply stupid scam artists, many quite successful.
You might want to look up (a) the word "suborn," because you're using it incorrectly; and (b) the constitution, because you're reading it incorrectly.
(a) You don’t have to be a complete a-hole all the time, just some friendly advice; and (b) before lecturing others on the Constitution, you might want to do some research on the Separation of Powers and Executive Vesting Clause because, just being friendly again, you really don't know jack shit about the Constitution. And jack left town.
You don’t have to be a complete a-hole all the time
Ha ha this coming from bot-hole over here.
We can apply this to you too, if it makes you feel better. The a-hole thing and, I'm assuming. you are also equally ignorant of the Constitution. I'd say read a book but I don't think you're ready for that yet. Better just stick to google or whatever retarded AI program does your thinking for you.
Better just stick to google or whatever retarded AI program does your thinking for you.
Well at least I'm not a retarded AI program.
Yeah that’s clever. And original.
I'd like to thank not being an AI for making it possible.
Brett Bellmore: o be clear, I think Trump was a willing and active participant in a scheme that involved fake electors, and politically threatening calls, with the aim of getting Congress, not just Pence, to wrongfully exercise discretion in the course of a ministerial task.
And that’s bad, but it’s bad in the same way the effort to suborn Trump electors in 2016 was bad.
What efforts to "suborn Trump electors in 2016" are you talking about? I wasn't aware of any of those - can you give more details about that?
The last-ditch push for the Electoral College to stop Trump, explained
Not Clinton nor the Democratic Party.
Also not fraudulent nor illegal.
Woosh. That was my point.
It goes without saying that Trump’s fraudulent and illegal efforts to certify fake electors were fraudulent and illegal.
Yes, if you make your conclusions your premises, your conclusions become inevitable... for anyone who agrees with your premises.
As you do, as per your comments above. So I ask again: Why on earth would you want to vote for someone who did all the things that you say Trump did? Do you care so little about American democracy?
You are aware that the fundamental basis of voting for the lesser evil is that both alternatives are evil, and you're just deciding which one is less evil, right? Telling somebody who has picked the lesser evil that their choice is "evil" is kind of redundant.
And when you're telling them that in the hope that they'll instead vote for the candidate they've decided is the greater evil, it's silly, too.
What is more evil than the guy who wants to undermine democracy? In a democracy, protecting democracy is logically more important than anything else.
Allegedly bad policies versus trying to overthrow the government and stay in power when he lost the election.
Totes the same thing to a fucking fool like Brett.
Is it your position that what Trump did was not fraudulent (*).
(*) Forget about the law, by "fraudulent" I include actions which are not based in fact at all even if the person believes they are.
"I wasn’t aware of any of those – can you give more details about that?"
Sure. Here's an example:
You can take away Jan 6. Trump still tried to steal the election.
But you can’t take away Jan 6 because he did nothing for 2 hours while rooting for the rioters.
And Senator McConnell also summed up why you can’t take away Jan 6:
> he did nothing for 2 hours
This is a lie, which you think you can get away with because your comrades at Twitter deleted the evidence. But like all leftists you don't understand that the internet is forever. It is trivial to search and find the video of Trump telling protesters to go home, because by that time he had realized that there was an ongoing color revolution (i.e., a false flag event).
That video was two hours after the attack. And also releasing a video is darn close to “doing nothing”.
Causter : “…by that time he had realized that there was an ongoing color revolution (i.e., a false flag event).”
So the orderlies give Causter time on the computer at the mental hospital! No doubt they have to laboriously unwind him from the strait-jacket and shackle him to the keyboard for security, but it’s still probably therapeutic.
But seriously, why are Righties so addicted to performance lunacy? I’m going out on a limb here, but bet Causter isn’t so shit-for-brains stupid as to actually believe the above gibberish. But like a little child playing at adult, he plays at being developmentally-challenged. That is what's so bizarre about today’s Right. The ideology demands its adherents be clowns, buffoons, and idiots. An IQ dump of 20 points minimum is required to get into the door. Show any critical reasoning skills and you’re banned from the clubhouse.
But Causter says the required imbecilic nonsense, so can belong. Apparently that’s more important to him than self-respect or personal dignity.
it’s bad in the same way the effort to suborn Trump electors in 2016 was bad.
No president or presidential candidate engaged in that. But, when it's something you don't like on "the other side", it is something they did, but when it's something bad on your side, suddenly Trump has to have personal involvement to be culpable.
Surely even you can see your glaring hypocrisy.
Yeah, even limited to the fake electors, etc., what Trump did was disqualifying to anyone who takes the rule of law and the Constitution seriously.
At least have the decency to not caterwaul about the rule of law any more.
Since he said "it's bad in the same way" you can't then complain he's demanding personal involvement for one and not the other. It's not hypocrisy to impose the *same* standard.
Thank you for posting Mr. Bellmore.
I was reading the comments in this thread with disbelief until I came across yours.
Your point about face electors schemes by both President Trump and the democrats is spot on.
I agree that President Trump was not remotely involved in the attacks given the facts in evidence that his administration supported the deployment of national guard elements.
I would like to point out numerous statements by the author not supported by facts in evidence.
Posts statement that Trump tried to ..."overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States," is an opinion not supported by the facts in evidence or any evidence presented in this article.
The author complains about lying. If lying bothers him, how does he reconcile that claim with the fact that Biden's serious mental decline happened without Kamala Harris or Presidential medical staff answering on the record questions forthrightly?
If hate-filled rhetoric bothers him how about the disgusting rhetoric of President Biden and Vice President Harris toward President Trump, Republican politicians, and Republican voters.
The disingenuous statement about a "net job loss during his four years as President" completely ignores the effects of the COVID pandemic. America voters obviously have a more rational assessment of Trump's economic record than Cato adjuncts.
It is obviously necessary to remind David that Putin attacked Ukraine while Obama and Biden were in the Oval Office and not Trump. I would suggest he read John Mearsheimer's publications and public comments.
The statement "attempting to overthrow the government through unconstitutional means as a total disqualification for holding the highest office in the land" has no support from the facts in evidence. Mr. Post does not offer any supporting evidence to support the assertions in the article. Opinion of course it not evidence.
Shame on you, Mr. Post.
For someone who claims to be interested in facts, you need to check yours. Couple examples.
his administration supported the deployment of national guard elements.
This is a lie Trump made up after the fact.
Your point about face electors schemes by both President Trump and the democrats is spot on.
The Democrats have never done a fake elector scheme. The dumb article Brett linked is proof. That was about convincing people to vote against Trump. Nothing fake about it. In fact that’s the point of the article — it was legitimate, if stupidly futile.
I’m sorry you’ve been so brainwashed by Trump that you’re no longer in contact with reality.
WASHINGTON - Committee on House Administration's Subcommittee on Oversight Chairman Barry Loudermilk (GA-11) revealed that days before January 6, 2021, President Trump met with senior Pentagon leaders urging them to do their jobs to protect lives and property. The transcripts released show Trump gave senior Pentagon leadership directives to keep January 6 peaceful - including using the National Guard - which the Pentagon leaders ignored. This revelation directly contradicts the conclusions drawn in the flawed DoD IG reporton January 6, 2021.
https://cha.house.gov/2024/9/transcripts-show-president-trump-s-directives-to-pentagon-leadership-to-keep-january-6-safe-were-deliberately-ignored
The last-ditch push for the Electoral College to stop Trump, explained
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13920444/electoral-college-trump-hamilton-electors
In last-shot bid, thousands urge electoral college to block Trump at Monday vote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-last-shot-bid-thousands-urge-electoral-college-to-block-trump-at-monday-vote/2016/12/17/125fa84a-c327-11e6-8422-eac61c0ef74d_story.html
"The disingenuous statement about a “net job loss during his four years as President” completely ignores the effects of the COVID pandemic."
Yup, I could have mentioned that. Does Post think Trump engineered the Covid pandemic? Heck, he didn't even engineer the stupidly destructive shutdowns; That was state level policy!
His administration was actually pretty pleasant until Covid came along, and the only thing Covid relevant that Trump really badly fumbled was listening to Fauci. Would a Democratic administration thought to tell the regulatory agencies to get the hell out of the way of vaccine development? I doubt it. They like their regulators.
“Tens of millions of my fellow-citizens —perhaps even a majority—appear to be poised to elect, as President […]”
Nah.
Plurality of voters? Sure, that’s 50-50. Majority of voters? Possible by very unlikely. Majority of your fellow-citizens? Not a chance in the world.
Whether you’re talking about Voting Age Population or Voting Eligible Population, we just don’t get enough turnout for anyone to say that a majority of US citizens elect anyoneto office [link].
Which is to say, don’t mistake someone winning an election for them having the support of the majority of American citizens. We just don’t have the kind of vote participation rates to support that claim.
edit: I do admit, this is a quibble. But I feel it's an important one, as you should not have an inflated idea of the mendacity of Americans.
"Tens of millions of my fellow-citizens —perhaps even a majority—appear to be poised to elect, as President, a man who tried to overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States."
And I hope he wins. I'm tired of elitists like you. Millions of folks feel the same way. Maybe get your elitist head out of your elitist arse and ask why millions of people are fed up of the kind of bovine fecal matter that folks like you dish out.
If you think Donald Trump *really* tried to "overthrow" the US government, then you are, absolutely, a first-rate idiot.
You realise that the whole point of populist right-wingers like Trump is to exploit the poor to enrich his own cronies, right? That's what he did the first time he was in office and if he ends up elected again the best case scenario is that he does that again.
"And I hope he wins. I’m tired of elitists like you. Millions of folks feel the same way. Maybe get your elitist head out of your elitist arse and ask why millions of people are fed up of the kind of bovine fecal matter that folks like you dish out."
US elections for president tend to be pretty close. So any election where you can say this about one team, you can just as fairly say about the other.
Which is to say... many Americans are tired of elitists like you. Millions of folks feel the same way. Maybe get your elitist head out of your elitist arse and ask why millions of people are fed up of the kind of bovine fecal matter that folks like you dish out
If, after reading that, you are unpersuaded... why would you expect anyone else to be persuaded when you wrote it?
The person who thinks being elite is bad is probably the one who has his head up his ass.
Michael W. Towns: If you think Donald Trump *really* tried to “overthrow” the US government, then you are, absolutely, a first-rate idiot.
You don't think he tried to overthrow the government? The fake electors? The pressure on Pence to do something that was laughably unconstitutional? You don't think he wanted Congress to certify his bogus electors and to call him the President? And you think I'm the idiot??!
Alternate electors are a device used in election challenges in the past. Disagree with it if you like but it is not a criminal fraud or attempt to overthrow the government.
It is when there is zero basis for having such electors. Ditto the pressure on state officials, the Justice Department and the VP.
There absolutely was a basis. That you disagree with the propriety of any lawsuits, or dispute the facts or the law, does not make the election challenges criminal fraud. Democrats challenge or dispute pretty much every election they lose. And they'll do it again this year if (hopefully) they lose. But there'll be no accusations of fraud or conspiracy from you. Because your arguments are based only on political bias. Give it a rest.
There absolutely was a basis.
There is an answer for you David. Trump’s repeated lies have deluded members of his cult.
Challenging and disputing aren't the same as fraud. Nice try though.
There was not a basis in 2020. There is one prior example which is not like this example (including because it did not involve fraud) and did not involve the scheme Trump participated in in 2020. But Riva-bot gonna bot.
Are you guys three separate idiots or just one big, composite idiot? It's hard to tell when you all parrot each other.
“Alternate electors are a device used in election challenges in the past. Disagree with it if you like but it is not a criminal fraud or attempt to overthrow the government.”
Riva, Congress enacted the Sarbanes–Oxley Act in 2002. Earlier this year, SCOTUS authoritatively interpreted 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) to prohibit an attempt to corruptly obstruct or impede an official proceeding of Congress through the creation of false evidence. Fischer v. United States, 603 U.S. ___, 144 S. Ct. 2176, 2186 (2024).
Do you have any example since 2002 of so-called “alternate electors” being submitted to Congress in order to obstruct Congressional certification of the count of presidential electors?
Still waiting, Riva. Do you have any example since 2002 of so-called “alternate electors” being submitted to Congress in order to obstruct Congressional certification of the count of presidential electors?
I promise that it will not break your keyboard to give an honest answer to a simple yes or no question.
How would you like me to respond to your absurd logical fallacy? You’re simply assuming the fraudulent conspiracy which you claim to prove by asserting they were “submitted ..in order to obstruct…” Alternate electors were employed as part of an ongoing election challenge, not as part of a criminal conspiracy.
Do you claim that the putative "alternate electors" were in fact elected by the states in question, Riva? Their claim to have been elected was fraudulent topside to bottom. Those from Pennsylvania and New Mexico qualified their submission by saying that it was contingent upon Trump's challenge being resolved in his favor, but the rest were just flat out lying.
Yeah, except for Pennsylvania and New Mexico, it was very badly executed.
But it still wasn't fraud in order to obstruct, because "fraud" requires intent to mislead people, and no effort at all was made to make people think the alternate slates had actually been the ones certified.
I'm still not hearing any kind of explanation of why Trump isn't an enemy of democracy. Even your defence of him still makes him sound like someone who shouldn't even be allowed into the White House on a visitors tour.
Why isnt HRC with her starting the Russian interference? double standard ?
"But it still wasn’t fraud in order to obstruct, because 'fraud' requires intent to mislead people, and no effort at all was made to make people think the alternate slates had actually been the ones certified."
Is that as true as everything else you have said, Brett?
See for yourself: https://www.archives.gov/foia/2020-presidential-election-unofficial-certificates
This is the actual official electoral college certificate from Arizona. Notice that it has the official seal, and is signed by the Governor and Secretary of State.
This is the 'alternative slate' certificate. Notice that it does NOT have a forged official seal, or forged signatures from the governor or Secretary of state. None of the alternate/fake certificates did.
This is not an attempt to actually fool anybody. In fact, nobody WAS fooled. Everybody knew going in that they were alternate electors made available in case Congress decided to count them, not people misrepresenting themselves as the electors the state government had actually certified.
If Congress had decided to count them, it would not have been a result of fraud.
I will gladly concede that, with the exception of the bunch from New Mexico and Pennsylvania, (Who apparently actually got some legal advice!) they neglected to cover their asses properly.
Except that in at least one other state — Michigan, I think — they were told to put in the same language, and expressly refused. The people organizing it in one or more states lied to the fake electors, telling them the certificates would only be submitted if the election result was overturned, but then the organizers submitted the documents anyway.
Brett, 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) prohibits corrupt attempts to obstruct, influence or impede an official proceeding of Congress just as it prohibits the accomplishment thereof. The creation/submission of false evidence suffices. Fischer v. United States, 603 U.S. ___, 144 S. Ct. 2176, 2186 (2024).
It matters not one whit that the attempt was so clumsy that no one in fact was fooled. It's called an inchoate offense.
“Whoever corruptly—
(1)alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or other object, or attempts to do so, with the intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding; or
(2)otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.”
So, yeah, it only criminalizes attempts to influence official proceedings if they’re done corruptly. Is applying political pressure to politicians in order to get them to do something they think is within their lawful authority corrupt? I don’t think so.
And at some point it's worth remembering that what looks like a clumsy attempt to do one thing might just be an adroit attempt to do something else.
"So, yeah, it only criminalizes attempts to influence official proceedings if they’re done corruptly. Is applying political pressure to politicians in order to get them to do something they think is within their lawful authority corrupt? I don’t think so."
Well, Brett, you will never be a juror in the Trump prosecution, so what you think means jack shit. Whether Trump and his co-conspirators acted corruptly should eventually be determined by twelve men and women in the District of Columbia acting under the instructions of Judge Chutkan.
Much of the government's proof will focus on showing that Trump knew that he had lost the 2020 election and was chasing the benefits of a second term in office to which he was not lawfully entitled. (The salary alone amounts to $1.6 million.) That is acting corruptly under any definition of the term.
Trump may cavil that he in fact believed that he had won the election. That amounts to a claim that his mistake of fact negates the culpable mental state. (Whether Trump can do that without testifying and subjecting himself to wide open cross-examination remains to be seen.)
A mistake of fact defense to a criminal prosecution is available only if the mistake is both honest and reasonable. This means that a person accused of a crime cannot later claim that they were mistaken when they actually were fully aware of what they were doing at the time.
Incidentally, on Crooked Timber the other day John Quiggin mapped out all the ways US democracy can fall to pieces after this election. Feel free to disagree with his numbers, but show your workings: https://crookedtimber.org/2024/10/28/the-end-of-us-democracy-a-flowchart/
From the OP:
"One possibility is that people just don’t want to think about it. Another, though, is that I’ve overestimated the probability of this outcome."
Not necessarily an either/or proposition...
I don’t know *why* so many Americans justify Trump’s behavior around the 2020 election. But *how* they do so is simple:
1. They claim there’s absolutely no evidence that Trump wanted or intended anything like the January 6 attack on the capitol to occur. All I can say to that is, if I’m ever on trial for my life with my fingerprints on the weapon and my DNA at the scene – I hope some of the folks who think that way end up on the jury and give me the same extraordinarily generous benefit of the doubt they give Trump.
2. They claim that the January 6 attack on the capital was either:
(1) A “false flag” op perpetrated by the FBI in collusion with Antifa to make Trump look bad;
(2) A mostly peaceful non-event that was blown up by the lamestream media into some big thing to make Trump look bad; and/or
(3) a totally justified – and awesome – response by righteous patriots to the blatantly rigged robbery of Trump’s sacred landslide victory in the 2020 election.
Many Trump supporters simultaneously claim that all three of these things are true. Never mind that each explanation excludes the other two, and none is based in reality.
There is some merit to each of those views. Maybe we should have a bipartisan investigation to get the facts. Oh yes, now I remember. One was proposed, but the Democrats killed it.
Oh yes. All of those contradictory, insane views have merit. Deep, deep merit. *Tremendous* merit. But which idiotic perspective has the most merit? Sadly, we may never know.
"All I can say to that is, if I’m ever on trial for my life with my fingerprints on the weapon and my DNA at the scene – I hope some of the folks who think that way end up on the jury and give me the same extraordinarily generous benefit of the doubt they give Trump."
And, all I can say is, where the hell is Trump's DNA at the scene, and fingerprints on the weapon? That's exactly what you DON'T have, which is why Trump hasn't been charged with having incited that riot.
I'll say this again: The break in at the Capitol was premeditated, planned by the Proud Boys. They were charged with that, it was proven in court, they were convicted.
And they were under intense surveillance for months before the FBI let them go ahead with the attack. If at any time Trump had communicated with them, directed them to conduct that attack, the FBI would have that communication. And they have bupkis.
You know who DID communicate with them during the planning? The FBI itself, though its own infiltrators; Half their leadership were working for the FBI! Suck on that, and ask why the attack came off instead of being stopped in its tracks.
The Trump admin wrote down their plan. To use unrest to pressure Pence to fraudulently fail to certify the election.
While his people helped plan the violence behind the scenes, Trump, via has tweets, fomented the unrest, failed to stop it, seemed pretty into it actually, and only moved hours and hours later when it had failed to achieve it's aim and become counterproductive.
You've got a whole evidences story that the Proud Boys and FBI were purely responsible. That appears to be a personal story; no one else is pushing that particular speculative train of thought.
At this point everyone but you knows there is nothing Trump could do that you wouldn't speculate some BS set of facts to rationalize it.
Yes, their plan was to apply political pressure. Protesters outside the Capitol are political pressure. Political pressure based on threats of the voters retaliating at the next election is the sort of thing that can work sustainably, because that next election doesn't blip out of existence, it looms. Large numbers of protesters outside the building gives that sort of threat credibility.
Physical pressure, coercion, lasts only so long as it's actively maintained. In theory you could invade the Capitol during the count, put a gun to Senators' heads, and force them to name your guy President. And everybody would know that you'd done that, and the moment the guns were removed they'd repudiate the vote.
As I said above, that sort of thing happens occasionally in 3rd world countries, but it's always just a final move to rubberstamp a takeover that's otherwise complete, because it doesn't work unless you're ALREADY the dictator!
The break in at the Capitol actually ended Trump's plan, it didn't further it. And that was so predictable that you have to be literally crazy to think Trump intended it.
I'm sure Trump enjoyed it immensely after Congress had refused his offer of extra security, but the idea that he planned it is insane.
Even if that's all he did, why wouldn't that be enough to make voting for him a non-starter forever?
I didn't vote for him in the primaries. I've said that repeatedly: If I'd had my choice, the GOP would have nominated DeSantis; In 2016 I was backing Rand Paul!
I will only vote for him in the general election because I think Harris is worse. Different, sure, but worse.
What is worse than ending US democracy?
Trump being elected is hardly going to end US democracy.
Why weren't you on about ending US democracy during all the attempts to disqualify the chosen candidate of the GOP from running for office? That's more "end US democracy" than a guy you don't like getting legitimately elected.
Here's what is going to happen: Either Trump or Harris will come up with more EC votes on election night. Probably not by enough of a landslide to cause the other side to throw in the towel.
If it's Trump, Democrats will try to suborn his electors, argue in Congress for refusing to count them, but in the end it will fail. Then there will be massive riots across the country, because that's what Democrats do when they don't get their way: Loot stores and set things on fire. But Trump will end up being President anyway, and you'll see some federal policies shift in a direction Republicans like, though not nearly as much as Republicans would want.
If it's Harris, Trump will whine about cheating, file a bunch of largely frivolous election challenges, but in the end it will fail. There won't be much rioting, because Republicans have been reminded that THEY get punished for temper tantrums, even if Democrats don't.
And then Democrats will pursue policies that Democrats like, but won't get everything they want. And we'll probably see renewed calls to pack the Court and 'fortify' elections.
And life will go on.
Trump won in 2016. Clinton conceded. No riots.
Biden won in 2020. Trump attempted to steal the election. Provoked Jan 6 by feeding lies to his supporters that he was robbed.
And you come up with the conclusion it will be Democrats who will riot if they lose? Harris will concede. Trump won't and if there is anyway he could, he would attempt to steal the election again.
I know that Democrats have trouble admitting that setting shit on fire and breaking windows makes a 'protest' a riot, but the level of denial here is absurd.
Democrats did not set shit on fire and break windows after losing in 2016.
Violence flares in Washington during Trump inauguration
Please note the accompanying photos of shit set on fire.
Not Clinton, not elected Democrats or any other Democrats in important positions, not provoked by them, not supported by them.
So yes, there will be some very small-scale rioting by nut cases who ever loses. But only side will attempt to steal and thus possibly provoke riots.
Hell, you won't even admit that smashing the windows of the Capitol to break in to hang the person who "lacked the courage" to award the election to Trump and prevent them from certifying Biden's win was an attempted coup.
No, actually I have been willing to say that it was an attempted coup, if you want to set the threshold for a "coup" so low that a lot of stuff Democrats have done would clear it.
I've just refused to say that it was Trump's attempted coup, because, yet again, you haven't produced any evidence that he directed them to do it.
He tried to steal the election irrespective of Jan 6. He provoked Jan 6. The Democrats have done nothing of the sort.
Trump being elected is hardly going to end US democracy.
Why take the chance? It's like global thermonculear war. Even a low probability is worth a lot of effort to avoid it.
Sigh. Once again: this is all fan-fiction in your head. It does not reflect what Trump intended and did. It expressly furthered Trump's plan. It did not in fact end it. It was the core of Trump's plan.
Brett, that last point is one aspect I have not understood clearly. Why did the Capitol Building break-in and subsequent riot happen at all, given the level of FBI surveillance of the group leadership and knowledge of their plans? Why let that happen at all?
It happened, I understand that. But why? I have not heard a great explanation for that particular point.
It would not be the first time that the FBI found some idiots who were talking about doing something stupid, egged them on to actually take it far enough to be prosecuted, planning on swooping in at the last instant heroically foiling the plot, and then bungled the swooping in part of the plan.
I suppose it would not be the first time the American people have heard the phrase, "Mistakes were made". So hypothetically assume you are correct; just a bad judgment call and the FBI fucked up the swooping in. Who then, made the bad decisions and bungled the swooping in part, and, what bottom line accountability has there been for the bad decisions? Is it even possible to identify who those FBI employees actually were?
Theoretically? Sure. As a practical matter?
We'll never find out in a Democratic administration, because the Democrats don't want anybody but Trump to take the blame, they have no motive to find out who fucked up.
A Trump administration might have some interest in finding out, but Democrats would refuse to believe the result of the investigation, much like they still deny that the IRS was targeting conservative way back when, even though the IRS literally confessed they had been.
I thought this was a post about baseball but then it turned into an anti-Trump post. I don't care all that much about baseball--but I really don't care all that much about things some guy named David Post thought he would never say, both about baseball and the presidential election.
That's OK. There are plenty of Josh Blackman posts on this blog that are probably more to your liking.
Libertatem: I really don’t care all that much about things some guy named David Post thought he would never say, both about baseball and the presidential election.
So, um, why'd you read the posting?
Just curious if you can name either teams starting line up if you're such a big fan.
I'd rather have Trump win than the Yankees.
At least you don't have to worry about the Cowboys.
These days, I worry about the Chiefs.....
You probably think they're a soccer team.
And that, folks, is the best Bot Riva can come up with! But it has long been clear this is a very crude machine with primitive programming. Hell, instead of chips & transistors, Bot Riva probably runs on simple wooden gears hewn with a very dull ax.
Still not thinking I see. Like I noted below, thinking is important, you'll have to take my word for it, since, well, you can't think. But maybe I should apologize for the Chiefs comment above. I'm sure you were caught up with Taylor Swift's fake romance last year like all the other teenage girl Swifties.
And thusy, grb's point was proven.
And the Swiftie fan base comes to the defense. You clowns really seem to be intimidated by me.
Be careful what you wish for, David. You might actually get it. 😉
Could get both...
Fortunately, I do not have to root for Trump.
If Trump wins the election, I suspect Josh Blackman like individuals will publish “heterodox” articles on the 22nd Amendment. There conclusion will be that the original meaning of the 22A does not prohibit Trump from running for a third term. The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals will love it, and SCOTUS will give the issue and the arguments a full hearing.
Unless he's Harry Truman in disguise, I don't think so.
Obviously the 22nd amendment only stops someone from running again after they've served back-to-back terms. That last bit is implicit, but part of the original public meaning.
This is silly; Trump will be 83 in 2029. He's not running again after this, not if he loses, and especially if he wins.
I'm betting if he wins, he doesn't even serve out the entire term, but instead retires after the halfway point.
Yes, Trump is definitely the sort of person who will graciously bow out to let someone else have their time in the spotlight. That sounds exactly right.
I'm not saying this because Trump will want to retire. I'm saying this because he'll likely medically NEED to retire. After Biden, people are going to start taking this sort of thing more seriously.
As long as he still has a pulse, he won't retire, and no one in the GOP will dare invoke the 25th against him. Hell, they wouldn't swear in the VP as President until three weeks after he dies, just in case.
This is the kind of ridiculous take on Trump that comes when you write a world based entirely on what you want to be true, not what is true.
Not a Trump guy and will likely write in Javier Milei... so, no horse in the race:
Wasn't an "attack". Whenever some cop shoots a black dude or some local team wins a national title, or some other cause gets folks all riled up, people rally. Some rallies turn to riots. Some rioters vandalize, trespass, loot, and otherwise do bad shit. Jan. 6 was nothing more than a rally that became a riot and a few those involved ended up trespassing in a government building and some of those jackasses vandalized the place. Not an insurrection, not at armed attack; no hostages were taken, no one dug in or entrenched themselves, no demands for release or retreat were issued.
Rally beget riot beget yahoos doing stupid shit.
Prosecute them and move on.
Folks have been calling Team Trump Nazis, fascists, racists, a threat to democracy, etc. for the better part of 9 years now.
Everyone gets numb to these things and they no longer have any sort of effect.
Your starting statements, non-boring as hell stick and ball sport stuff aside, don't do you any favors. "left office with a net job loss during his four years as President" would work, except everyone knows it was at the height of COVID and something he had no control over. While I tend to agree on the tariffs, the effects were never really realized; again COVID. Very reasonable people have different opinions on his threating to pull out of NATO and it can be objectively stated that many of the members are not contributing what they agreed to when they joined. Whatever you think about his "sucking up", remember that it wasn't until he was out of office that Ukraine was attacked and that NK didn't join Russia's forces under his watch.
Things like that and calling Jan 6th an "attack" hurts yours and other's credibility.
Raccroc : “left office with a net job loss during his four years as President” would work, except everyone knows it was at the height of COVID and something he had no control over."
True enuff. Now do inflation.
(which was a worldwide phenomena and worse in most other countries with a comperable economy)
US inflation rate during ranged from approx 2.0% to 2.5% 2016-2020 while ranging from 2.5% up to 9% from 2021-2024.
The US inflation rate during 2016-2020 was generally 25-50 bips below european countries during the same time frame. The US inflation rate during the biden administration has been comparable to European countries during the same time frame. Note that comparing inflation rates across various countries is difficult due to the different metrics used in each country.
Congrats on describing exactly how an external supply chain shock would look.
congrats on not understanding GRB's non relevant attempt at an analogy.
A gold medal for your skill at evasion! Let’s consider relevance :
1. Raccroc says criticism of Trump’s job creation record over his entire term must take account of Covid. I agree (though Trump’s non-Covid record was still worse than Obama’s before & Biden’s after)
2. I point-out that should exclude Biden’s inflation record from censure, since it was equally a worldwide problem resulting from Covid. The same honesty I show to Trump’s job record criticism should be matched by Biden’s inflation critics. This is both relevant & true.
And Joe_dallas? He doesn’t contest the truth of anything I say. He claims it isn’t relevant, but that’s just his typical weasely bullshit. He brings up inflation during the peak of Covid, which is bizarrely irrelevant (does he understand economics no better than immunology?). He says U.S. inflation was “comparable” to other countries, which is his way of tiptoeing around an argument he must lose.
Bottom line? What I said stands. If you let Trump off the hook for his economic record because of Covid, there’s no legtimate or fair reason not to see inflation under Biden the same way. I treat both cases using the same standard because I’m not a dishonest hack. Joe_dallas can’t treat both equally. Guess why?
Raccroc: Things like that and calling Jan 6th an “attack” hurts yours and other’s credibility.
Wow! You won't even call it an attack?!! Have you seen the videos? Did those Capitol police officers die from sudden onset of Covid? Smashing the doors isn't an "attack"? You're joking, right?
Read between the lines, he's telling you he only believes what he likes.
Have you read True Believer by Eric Hoffer? I think you would find it far more insightful than listening to these people try to rub two stones together.
" Did those Capitol police officers die from sudden onset of Covid?"
Which officers are those? Snopes says one officer died, but also says "a medical examiner's report released in April 2021 said Sicknick suffered strokes and died of natural causes." Even if you think the medical examiner's report is wrong that doesn't justify a plural.
This is your side's problem. You hate Trump so much that you have to add lies to your case against him even when they're not needed. Of course it was an attack. But that's not enough; you have to make him look worse by implying multiple officers were killed. And that makes people like me decide that you're probably lying about everything else.
I think I was pretty specific in why I won't call it an attack.
The videos ARE pretty clear... a rally turned into a riot.
When a Superbowl parade/celebration or a BLM rally gets out of hand and cars are flipped, fires are set, and building are looted, we don't call it an attack... we call it a riot.
I don't see the difference other than this one seemed to really stick in the craw of the fed govt..
Nobody died during the event. They were not armed (sure, there were a few exceptions, but very few), they were not organized, they had no definable plans to achieve any sort of mission. The VAST majority of the people who attended the rally did not go into the building.
Ever wonder why almost all of the charges were for simple things like disorderly conduct, unlawful entry, assaulting or impeding law enforcement, and/or some property crimes?
Only 11 people had seditious charges against them (charges filed under seal not withstanding).
Doesn't sound very much like the kind of response one would expect when a nation is "attacked".
And I think you're wrong: There was a rally turned into a riot, AND an attack, going on at the same time. Trump was only involved in the former, the latter was the Proud Boys.
"Tens of millions of my fellow-citizens —perhaps even a majority—appear to be poised to elect, as President, a man who tried to overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States." This truly deranged, unbalanced absurdity seems to be shared by all too many professionals working in academia. The mass insanities that have afflicted some in several contexts throughout history has a new, modern object lesson.
A substance-free denial from the Bot Riva. Its circuits must be overloading!
That’s odd because I was about to write the same thing about your response. My hopes aren't high but feel free to add an original thought if you can. Thinking is important. Not Democratic but still, important.
I suppose Hitler was the sanest guy out theee?
Thanks for reminding me why I hate Yankee Fans(and Red Sox, Astro-Cheaters in fact, the entire Amurican League except for the Royals)
"Thanks for reminding me why I hate ... the entire Amurican League"
Frank finally shows that he is un-AMERICAN!
He probably one of those people that are like, "Yeah, Oklahoma is totally SEC!"
People supporting Donald Trump who has the support of people like Elon Musk being all "f the elites" is somewhat amusing.
I respect the Dodgers hate. An older relative had a day off from school when the Brooklyn Dodgers won the World Series.
Still think of it as a devil or the deep blue sea thing especially after the Dodgers beat the Mets. The Mets lost to the Dodgers in six.
The last-ditch push for the Electoral College to stop Trump, explained
So, let’s see if we have this straight – You, Brett Bellmore, find equivilence between:
(1) A group of nobodies who called themselves the “Hamilton Electors” and were ignored & rejected by everyone even in their sub-fifteen minutes of fame. They were supported by nobody, influenced nobody, and disappered without the slightest trace.
(2) And Trump’s plus-two month campaign to steal the election he lost, complete with fraudulent electors, harebrained unconstitutional scams, pressure on state officials to cook voting results (for which Trump sometimes used a burner phone), demands the head of Justice mislead states about evidence of “fraud” that never existed, joke lawsuits, bizarre conspiracy theories, and a diarrhea of endless continual lying.
And this two months were followed by four years of toxic lying gibberish, so that the deeply stupid Right believe his fraud garbage, the cowardly Right claim belief with a prostitute’s zeal, and the few Righties left with any ethical backbone still go along out of tribal loyalty.
And the two months were also followed by legislation in many GOP-led states to make it easier for politicians to block election certification and change the voter’s will. Along with efforts to retaliate against Republican officials who followed their moral standards and did their duty in the ’20 election.
You, Brett Bellmore, find equivilence between those two things? Really?!?
Brett Bellmore will latch onto anything to justify supporting the unacceptable. He clearly doesn't crave respect, but I'd certainly respect him a lot more if he was just honest. If Hitler and Stalin ran as Republicans promising lower taxes and a closed border, he would vote for them over any Democrat.
I said it was wrong in the same way: Being an effort to wrongfully persuade people in a ministerial role to exercise discretion, in order to elect the loser. That's the ONLY equivalence I asserted.
And they want to do it again this year. The scheme is to have all the electors fed an "intelligence briefing" that they can do their job in light of. What the hell is the relevance of any intelligence briefing to their job, which is entirely ministerial?
No, the point is to once again persuade Trump electors to violate their role and vote for somebody else. This time with the help of the intelligence services.
Who is they?
On this end we have the Trump administration, and later the entire GOP apparatus and a bunch of right wing media.
Over here we have a small group of idiots in 2016, and you failing to notice that your 'and they want to do it again this year' links to *a 2016 story!
Fair enough, I'm not on the top of my game, having recently had my skull chiseled. Maybe they're not doing that this year, after all.
So, to be clear, the Clinton campaign actually WAS involved in the 2016 effort to suborn electors.
1. New thesis.
2. You have a scale problem. In December 2016 Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman John Podesta made a statement that these ten electors from five states who are asking to receive a briefing on foreign interventions into the 2016 election should get it.
Yeah, in retrospect that looks like a bad idea, but at the time it was seen as pretty harmless venting. (see also the onsey-twosey Congressional certification grandstanding in years past)
Meanwhile, Trump’s admin, multiple people laid out and attempted to execute a plan to overturn the election. And then Trump and all of his admin, and the entire GOP have been lying about election theft for *four years.*
Do you have the full text of Podesta's statement? The abbreviated quotes I've seen do not clarify whether he was supporting briefings for just those specific electors, (Who, again, had no need for the information as their role was entirely ministerial, and you don't need such information to be a rubber stamp.) or for all the electors, as some were proposing.
Once more: you need to look up the definition of "suborn."
One again, a MAGA who can't tell the difference between persuasion and fraud. It says a lot, I think, about their perceptions of their own mental capacities that they can't distinguish between an argument and a con. Also explains a lot.
lol. Well said.
I have never been able to understand people that get emotionally invested in which sports team wins a game. It is a game. It is literally a game. Who wins it makes no difference to your life, unless you have gambled on the outcome, own the team, or have some other financial stake in the event. Stop caring. You're being silly.
As for Trump and Harris, let us grant for the sake of discussion that every terrible thing you think about Mr. Trump is true. It is still the case that you've only done 1/4 of the work, at best. You still need to consider 1) the good things about Mr. Trump's potential second term, 2) the bad things about Ms. Harris' potential first term, and 3) the good things about Ms. Harris' potential first term.
All that's the first step.
Then you need to synthesize those four lists into a estimated impacts on America and the world of each of these individuals becoming President. That's the second step.
Finally, you need to compare these two estimated impacts to each other, and decide which one you prefer. That's the third step.
Then, and only then, can you claim to have done the intellectual work to have an informed opinion about who should be President.
But if you stop at step 1, part 1, you just haven't done the work.
"I have never been able to understand people that get emotionally invested in which sports team wins a game. It is a game. It is literally a game. Who wins it makes no difference to your life, unless you have gambled on the outcome, own the team, or have some other financial stake in the event. Stop caring. You’re being silly."
I could identify with statements such as these when I was still a Vanderbilt football fan. I switched my principal allegiance when I enrolled in law school at the University of Tennessee. (Although I still usually root for Vanderbilt since the jerk Coach James Franklin left there.)
Identifying with a sports team with a storied tradition is fun and exciting -- especially after surviving some lean years. I am pleased that the Big Orange is now in control of its own destiny.
Go Orange! 😉
It is still the case that you’ve only done 1/4 of the work, at best. You still need to consider 1) the good things about Mr. Trump’s potential second term, 2) the bad things about Ms. Harris’ potential first term, and 3) the good things about Ms. Harris’ potential first term.
Read Rawls or Nozick or whoever developed the idea, but there is a legitimate moral theory of utilitarianism with side constraints. There are some things which you just cannot do, no matter what you mathematical calculations say. This is because (a) it is actually impossible to do all the calculations you suggest given both limited information and chaos theory and (b) as Brett Bellmore demonstrates, you can always fudge the moral math to get to the result you want if you are sufficiently motivated. Thus, some things disqualify a person from office, even if the political/moral math seems to indicate they would be a better president for four years.
But even in a fully utilitarian analysis, David Post has both determined that a second Trump term would be awful and that a second Trump term would do such damage to the country that (it is implied) even the worst realistically bad summation of a Harris administration cannot equate to the destruction of the Constitutional system that has been essential to America's dominance in the world (and the victory for democracy in most of the world) for the past century plus.
Trump is a threat to the ship. Harris might rearrange the deck chairs in a way you don't like. You don't have to calculate beyond Trump threatens to sink the ship and Harris doesn't.
"(it is implied) even the worst realistically bad summation of a Harris administration cannot equate to the destruction of the Constitutional system"
And that's precisely his valid complaint: It's IMPLIED, because Post didn't bother to do that part of the work. He stopped at "Trump bad, ugh!" and didn't even bother to evaluate whether Harris was equally bad.
...are you arguing Harris will come at our civic institutions?
The ones you foolishly have no issue with destroying?
You're whining that people who already went through a Trump administration and watched him try to stay in power through illicit means aren't informed enough to say they don't want to do that again?
Hitler never won a majority in a contested election. But why did such a large number of Germans vote for him, despite the fact that he, too, had previously organized a failed coup?
Do you think America is fundamentally different from Germany?
Hitler Hitler Hitler nazi nazi nazi Hitler nazi nazi Hitler nazi Hitler Hitler Hitler.
Does that make you feel better?
That summarizes the closing argument of the Harris campaign.
You are right. The answer of whether America is fundamentally different from 1930s Germany has been answered. Whether American or German, large numbers of people will vote for and support a sociopath who leans into hatred and cruelty and grievance.
Not a very encouraging observation of human nature.
Yes
Yes
I'm reminded of the Milgrim Experiment.
For those of you who didn't take Pscyh 101, the professor had a theory that Germans were just more obedient then Americans, and that's why they had gone along with Hitler and the Nazis. Reading about the whole thing [wikipedia link] is interesting, but basically they were testing the willingness of a random person to electrocute a stranger to death just because someone in a white lab coat told them to do so (yes, I'm papering over a lot of nuance, I'm a rando on the internet, go read the wiki article).
Now like most psych experiment, this was first performed on white affluent college students, with the intent of eventually taking it to Germany to see how Germans measured differently (the hypothesis being that they would be much more obedient).
But as we know, Milgrim never went to Germany because the results here were just too distressing.
Which is to say... no, I don't believe we're fundamentally different. We're all human.
You say Americans are capable of killing innocent human beings if they become convinced (or convince themselves) that it's the right thing to do?
I agree, but probably not for the same reasons as you.
Did Trump cause the attack on the Capitol?
He did nothing to stop it until prodded by his family.
He certainly acted like it was the natural result of his speech.
He’s consistently praised the rioters.
So the answer is “yes”.
captcrisis : “He did nothing to stop it until prodded by his family”
Actually, he did nothing to stop it until long after being prodded by his family. Their initial pleas he do something – anything – were all ignored. Instead, he watched the rioting on TV like a sporting event. When Kevin McCarthy called Trump from the midst of the Capitol mayhem to beg for help, DJT replied, “Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are.”
After he was briefed that the Vice President was in danger and barely secure in a building breached by rioters, Trump sent those rioters a message via tweet: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done.” After he talked to the president (then watching the chaos on TV), Mark Meadows told a room full of people in an adjoing room Trump said Pence “deserved to be hanged”. Many of those people would later testify under oath.
I stand corrected! Thanks.
Nobody testified that anyone tried to harm Pence. He was never in any danger.
Uh huh. Rioters overran security and had run of the building. Some of them chanted threats against Pence as they rampaged through the Capitol unchecked. The Secret Service had the Vice President in a semi-secure location, but had barely missed a group of rioters while moving him into the space.
Of course President Trump was told the VP was at risk, but responded as I note above, egging on the mob hunting Pence with a tweet. Video taken during the riot show a man with a bullhorn reading Trump’s message aloud to rioters even as they swarmed the hallways chanting, “Hang Mike Pence.”
Doesn’t match the description by Roger S, does it? But fidelity to the facts isn’t a priority when your life mission is tongue-polishing Trump’s shoe leather gleaming bright…..
Trump was told that the VP was safe, not that the VP was at risk.
Similarly to their work during the so-called second assassination attempt on Trump at the golf course, the Secret Service (and other law enforcement) successfully kept Pence out of immediate danger. But the notion that because the protective detail did its job means that there was no threat to him is insane or dishonest. Or both: that's the oeuvre of Schlafly the Least.
In 2016, I held my nose and voted for Ted Cruz, because he was the only Republican candidate left beside Trump by the time my state's primaries rolled around. I then changed my registration from Republican to Libertarian to signal my objection to Trump's nomination. I changed back to Reublican in 2020 in hopes of voting against Trump in the presidential primary, and so I could vote against Trumpist candidates in other Republican primaries. After the January 6 riot, I wrote an irate letter to my Senator who'd voted against impeaching Trump.
But let me try to steel-man an argument for voting for Trump rather than Harris. Trump cares about nothing but one Donald J. Trump, and will happily run roughshod over the Constitution and anything else that keeps him from getting what he wants. But his very selfishness and shortsightedness is a virtue of sorts, in that he doesn't care at all about what happens after he's summoned to the big golf resort in the sky. If he gets another term, much of the evil that he does will be interred with his bones.
By contrast, Harris would definitely be about advancing the progressive agenda. She'd set out to create new entitlements—things like free college, free day-care, and free God-knows-what-else, all to be paid for by taxes on big greedy corporations (which big greedy corporations would pass many of those costs along to the consumer in the form of higher prices). And those entitlements would never die, at last not until the US government's credit score plummeted and we found ourselves no longer able to finance a generous welfare state through borrowing.
With Trump, we'd have a very rough four years, but with luck the republic would recover from them. With Harris, on the other hand, we'd see a permanent expansion of government. A reasonable person might think it better to put up with the short-term evil, even if it's more evil while it lasts.
Harris would also let in millions of aliens, and they would permanently alter the character of the USA.
We already survived a Trump term. We do not know whether we can survive a Harris term.
OK. Your argument is a major effort and we can all appreciate that. But I don’t see how you exclude the possiblity of permanent damage to the country from a president who will (in your words) “happily run roughshod over the Constitution”. I fail to follow the logic that finds pathological selfishness, dishonesty, and shortsightedness as some kind of saving grace.
Seems like you skipped over establishing those axioms more firmly because they’re one-hundred percent counterintuitive. Seems like most people would come to the exact opposite conclusion you did.
(Of course any justification for a Trump vote must be flawed. However you made a stellar attempt with the reeking Nothing you had to work with)
This is a reasonable (but not persusive) argument in favor of voting for Trump. Attempting to steal an election goes to the heart of our democracy while policy differences are in the margins.
Trump could have run as a liberal Democrat. On the only two issues he cares about, he is more at home in the Democratic party on tariffs and more at home in the GOP on immigration. On all the rest, he would take whatever positions the party wants him too (e.g., pro-choice). I, as a liberal, would vote for Ted Cruz over Trump in the general election if I lived in a swing state.
111 comments in and no one has yet to answer the question posed.
I'm puzzled. What question are you referring to?
The short answers (not guilty, the question was why are people voting for Trump in light of Jan 6) based on what I have read:
1) Trump was robbed in 2020, so he didn’t attempt to steal an election
2) Trump lost, but made no attempt to steal the election
3) Trump lost and his attempts at challenging the results were on par with what Gore (2000) and Clinton (2016) did.
4) Trump lost, attempted to steal the election, but came nowhere close. No harm, no foul (the Sideshow Bob defense).
5) Trump lost, attempted to steal the election, but policy issues take precedence over those actions and Harris’ policies are venomous.
And sometimes more than one of them at a time.
I figured it would not be a sweep. It is still unlikely that the Yanks will win. Someone wondered about passion for sports. It’s a human thing. You root for things. It can be an emotional outlet. Some people are very emotionally tied to reality programs.
The “Hamilton electors” thing was referenced. This references Hamilton’s discussion of electors in the Federalist Papers.
In 2016, a few people argued that electors are constitutionally independent. “Originalists” have argued that this was the original understanding.
Whatever the original understanding, electors soon became pledged. But, some still argue they had constitutional independence. Again, for whatever it’s worth, many originalists agree with the premise. Now it’s crooked?
It was not illegal to talk about it as compared to Trump’s schemes which led to state and federal indictments. Hillary Clinton wasn’t part of the “Hamilton Electors” movement. She immediately conceded the election.
I'm hopeful that one of my readers can explain to me
which of those possibilities is closer tothe truth of the matter, and why, in either case,we shouldn'tbe terrified about thatProfessor Post, nice to see you posting (pun intended) again. I clarified your request. But before I start, I wish to note for the record that today is day 979 of the UKR war, which you wagered would be no more than 30 days. Do you remember?
Professor Post, I am just going to tell you that your blindness there (you wagered a short war with RUS defeat and humiliation) is related to your blindness here. That is the truth of the matter. You can choose to accept that, or not. I'm thinking at age 73, you (like most Boomers) probably don't engage in a lot of personal introspection at this stage in your life.
YK (above) gave you a big part of the answer. The rational trade-offs people make in their own minds, relative to their personal circumstance in life, and personal life experiences all inform making their final voting decision. It isn't a specific act, it is the gestalt that leads to a vote. I know you understand that, Professor.
But that doesn't tell you why 80MM people are about to elect Pres Trump to a second term, does it? The same 80MM Americans that POTUS Biden literally called human garbage, yesterday. This is your blindness. I cannot say if it is willful or not, but if I ever manage to collect my winnings, I will know the answer in less than 5 minutes. However, I do have a prescription to help what ails you; then you will see, and understand. I am quite serious.
Professor, have you ever taken an extended driving trip around the country for more than 4 weeks? And limit the time you spend on super-highways? That is Commenter_XY's prescription, that you might see more clearly what is animating a huge proportion of those 80MM people.
Put simply, you are in an exclusive, special, and elite group: Law Professor. The country is not. You do not see or understand their reality. That you are missing what so many of these 80MM people are experiencing actually should terrify you. It is always the thing you do not see coming that gets you; in a courtroom or classroom. Or the ballot box.
Perhaps you – Commenter_XY – can explain why these so-called non-elite types chose and support someone who tried to overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States. You seem to have the condescending view no explanation is required. You’re the one who hold these folk in contempt.
But that’s not an option for me. There is no “elite” whatsoever in my heritage. Both my parents were from very rural origins and I was the only one in my family who went to college. I can’t pretend the “non-elite” shouldn’t be expected to think critically, have ethical standards, or own their decisions. That arrogant bullshit is your shtick, XY.
So, why? Why did the Right pick a toxic cancer who tried to destroy the very foundation of our representational government? Why did they eagerly chose a deeply stupid pathological liar and lifelong criminal to worship as a demi-god? Whiny cliches about the “elite” doesn’t answer that question, XY. You’ll have to dig deep into your own personal corruption & lack of moral standards to provide a response.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2
That quiz was revealing when it was written. It is still revealing today. Would your score even break 50? Take the quiz and find out.
You can add this question.
Have you (or a family member) witnessed the administration of Narcan in the last 90 days (and not a television depiction)?
You might be surprised (or maybe not) at the responses to this, and other similar degradation measures, and the differences by geography and demographics, grb.
BTW grb, Professor Post being in a very elite group, Law Professors, is not a criticism. It is something to be proud of.
31 for me. The quiz demonstrates the differences in our experiences.
But, Post's point is in a rational world those differences would not result in different views about Trump attempting to steal the 2020 election. Many of the high-scorers in your quiz have been deluded by Trump because they don't trust the low scorers. But, they have been deluded all along that Trump gives a shit or does anything for them.
My point is: You don't see what you don't see. The quiz is a good way to help illustrate what you do not see.
The saying, 'Birds of a feather, flock together' is very apropos here. Because Professor Post is in a very small gaggle (upper middle class, law professor), he never sees the volery of birds.
I see the legitimate frustrations of the high scorers as their futures do not look as birght as their pasts (the future looks bright for the low scorers). I also see their attraction to Trump as a result.
Do you see that those frustrations do not justify buying into Trump's lies about the 2020 election and Jan 6 (even if they explan them)?
Josh R, it doesn't matter if Commenter_XY agrees with you or not, because ~80MM Americans are now making the justification (based on their own personal gestalt) in a very close election; statistically tied as a matter of fact.
Professor Post's question and yours are the same; I answered it. I pointed out the blind spot (you don't see what they see), why that might happen (gaggle vs volery), and then referenced a tool (backed by objective research data) to help you to become aware of just a few of the factors that go into their gestalt in casting their ballots and how those factors might differ from yours.
I just explained what they see and I understand why they do. The problem remains as a result of their experiences, they see Trump’s election lies as the truth.
My score was 55. So what? I grew up in just barely above a blue collar household, worked lots of blue collar jobs, was in the military, and like a bit of pop culture with my high art & profound literature.
What is this supposed to prove?
How does it excuse the irresponsibility of a Trump vote?
How does it provide cover for your own choices you can’t defend?
Exactly this.
My score: 68.
So, yes, I am pretty familiar with these people. In my experience, they generally don't have a rational reason, rather they use their reasoning to justify voting for Trump because they have bought into the propaganda that Democrats are evil. Yes, evil. As in Obama was the antichrist evil except, wait, no, it's Kamala Harris.
Commenter_XY : "... differences by geography and demographics ..."
So freaking what? You still can't hide the craven pusillanimity of a Trump vote by crouching behind the people of Flyover Country. Your cheap psalms on their piety only impresses the poseurs. I was back home last week and among the people you admire so much from a distance. I asked one relative why she was voting for Trump and she just laughed. To use an appropriate (if elite) term, she saw her vote as a Dadaist joke.
Which is common among the non-elite, however much you condescend to see them as holy innocents. There is nothing more tired than this worn "elitist" shtick. We are told the elite aren't "respectful". We are told they think meanie thoughts about others. Well, take it from someone who grew up in a very non-elite setting: They also aren't "respectful" - to a whole universe of others. They also think meanie thoughts about anyone & everyone. Exactly where does their victimhood status come from?
Of course your bullshit isn't new, XY. It isn't even restricted to today's hollow nihilistic Right. The exact thing happened when DC voters returned a disgraced Marion Barry to office. It happened any number of times when corrupt huckster politicians had long successful careers in the Deep South. I see those votes as blind folly. Why should I judge your corruption and shame any different? Please give me a reason why I should.
You eagerly support a sleazy huckster buffoon. A criminal throughout his entire life. A man who treats women like dirt, up to and including rape. A man who can't say two sentences without lying because his mind is broken. Someone who was deeply stupid before and is hemorrhaging brain cells now. Someone whose policy positions are crude absurdities. Someone without decency, empathy, character, or conscience. Someone committed to corruption and grifting as a way of life. Someone who taints and fouls everything within reach. And someone who sees you as a dumbass dupe, btw. I saw a quote from some (non-elite) person who said he wouldn't vote for someone like Harris because she looks on him with comtempt. I just shook my head. See, XY, I can guarentee Harris looks on him and you with much less contempt than Trump does. He sees you as a worthless loser to be played. Your vote just proves him right.
So, another chance: Why, XY? Why do you support someone who tried to overthrow the constitutionally-elected government of the United States? Don't hide behind the people of Flyover Country. They have enough problems without being used as a cheap prop by you.
Interesting quiz, although I can't really explain why...41 for me. The results:
11–80: A first-generation upper-middle-class person with middle-class parents. Typical: 33.
0–43: A second-generation (or more) upper-middle-class person who has made a point of getting out a lot. Typical: 9.
I am neither of those things,
I know Jimmie Johnson the musician but not the NASCAR driver
Don't feel bad. I had Johnson as the former Cowboy's coach....
51 here.
I could rattle off all my humble roots, but let's face it, you don't really care, you just had a bad assumption about the people you disagree with. Maybe you should try to get out of your bubble.
56. I grew up in a rural area, my father was a machinist, my relatives in the building trades, I've never lived in a "toney" neighborhood, and so forth. My idea of entertainment runs to fishing and camping. OTOH, as a machinist, my father was hardly poor, except maybe that year the union struck GM.
Brett Bellmore : "My idea of entertainment runs to fishing and camping"
I'd have been golden if the quiz asked for camping, but all my fishing lay in years past. The last time was with the ex-wife's parents in the Baltic Sea. The time before that was in Lake Gatun - effectively the Panama Canel. Ocean-going container ships passed our skiff in the distance. I was with two army colonels from Fort Clayton and we didn't catch a damn thing. Hell, I didn't do any better with the German in-laws for that matter.
No one tried to overthrow the government. The USA does not work that way. The government cannot be overthrown by a riot in the Capitol.
That's how all governments are overthrown.
All governments that ARE overthrown, maybe you mean?
I suppose that would be a better way to say it, yes.
It’s important to consider that Trump’s reaction to the 2020 election results were a typically Trump lashing out at the way in which the election was conducted. With their hands on all the levers of power, the Democrats didn’t have to tamper with the voting machines. They used the security state and the media to keep important information from the voting public (censoring the Hunter Biden laptop). They changed election laws and procedures in critical states. They used covid to allow massive voting by mail, and to hide Biden’s dementia. If people doubt this had an impact on the results, they have only to read this TIME magazine description of how it was done: https://time.com/magazine/us/5936018/february-15th-2021-vol-197-no-5-u-s/
Man, those are powerful and focused Dems. Amazing the GOP even exists!
Anybody who believes this is too fucking stupid to be allowed to vote. There was not one bit of "censorship." The story was published in one of the largest circulation newspapers, published online, and widely discussed online by everyone who was online; it was also discussed in every other news outlet.
And, as we know, there was nothing to the laptop in the first place, other than providing evidence that Hunter Biden, who was not running for office, didn't pay his taxes.
Hunter Biden also used his father's name to collect bribes from foreign officials. 50 USA intelligence officials said that it was Russian propaganda.
51 former intelligence officials expressly said that they didn’t have any firsthand knowledge of what it was, liar. They said that it looked like Russian disinformation.
Once again, you have trouble with words actually meaning things.
Hunter Biden did no such thing, and could not have done such a thing, since he wasn’t in office and so there was nothing to “bribe” him about.
Serious non-snarky question. What percentage of the of the population that maybe skimmed through the letter (or heard a truncated version on their favorite cable news program) thought it was establishment opinion? And can you really blame them? The phrase, "political ignorance" comes to mind.
Mind you, I don't disagree with a thing you've said. But reality is that we as a polity really don't pay that much attention...
In which David Post almost, but not quite, understands that there are millions of American voters who don't agree with his assessment that some un-armed Americans actually attempted a coup.
And that's where he'll remain stuck after Trump wins this election.
Perplexed that a diversity hire who never won a presidential primary and who is demonstrably unable to think on her feet didn't get elected.
And I'm ok with that.
'You don't understand that a buncha people really hate Harris because of her race and think she's dumb' isn't the good argument you think it is.'
This postmodernist turn that the right's taken, where all facts are just opinions, continues to be an argument I am amazed to see.
Democrats didn't like her until 3 months ago.
And, of course, they don't really like her at all but she's what they get.
Somebody who couldn't convince more than, what, 2 percent of Democrat voters to vote for her in a Democrat Primary and dropped out, is now the candidate.
An admitted diversity hire isn't being shoved down my throat, she's being shoved down your throat. She's not smart, she's not quick on her feet and she's so fake that she changes her accent trying to morph into whatever group she's talking to. Hell, she bombed an interview with Anderson Cooper.
Propped up at every stage by the MSM, celebrities, and academia because of their blinding hatred of Trump. But it still won't be enough. At least you guys have the "They're all Nazis" salve to rub on that butthurt.
Clearly Swede425, you need to unburden yourself of those past
objectively truerealities (i.e. extreme unlikability as VP as measured by public polling, never having gotten a single primary vote in 2020 or 2024), in order to see the awesomeness of the prospect of having VP Harris as your next president. 😉Nobody disagrees with it. They know it happened; they just don't care. But since they know other people do care, they lie about it.
No, no one attempted a coup.
One of the most annoying political tropes of all time, is the "My opponents secretly agree with me about everything, and publicly proclaim their disagreement just to be obnoxious!"
It's like rain on your wedding day.
So, just to make sure I understand where you're coming from: the people with all of the guns showed up for a coup and brought none of the guns.
Why, it's so crazy it might just work! Brilliant.
They did bring guns.
Oh, that's right, I forgot.
They killed all those police.
"But I would have thought that the vast majority of Americans would view attempting to overthrow the government through unconstitutional means as a total disqualification for holding the highest office in the land, and would not countenance casting their vote for anyone who participated in such an attempt."
You're not going to like the answer, I'm afraid. The reason millions of people will vote for him is because the Democrats have refused to concede that the 2020 election was problematic, and they have thrown everything at him -- impeachments, lawsuits, FBI investigations, multi-year Congressional committees, censorship programs, bannings, even assassination attempts (!) -- in an unending tidal wave of counter-insurgency efforts as if he were literally an enemy of the state.
And because this all seems so outrageously unfair, and yet in spite of it all, HE STILL STANDS, those millions upon millions no longer believe what the elites are telling them about Trump.
And they especially no longer believe that Trump was "attempting to overthrow the government". They just don't. The establishment has cried "Hitler!" too often.
And, frankly, I don't blame them one bit for being skeptical. Trump has been unfairly treated by the establishment, massively and even possibly illegally unfairly treated. It has been a disgustingly shameful episode of the abuse of governmental power, in my opinion.
The Republican Party has been transformed, I think. Not into the image of Trump, although of course he is very popular, but into a populist movement in its own right. Trust in the establishment is gone. We are in the midst of another major party line shift.
What you need to to for your story to be true, is to take as axiomatic that Trump has done nothing wrong and the 2020 election was 'problematic.'
Why you do that, that's the real question.
Not at all. All that is needed is for people to believe Trump has been outrageously mistreated, and that the 2020 election — held in the midst of a pandemic where normal procedure was thrown to the winds — had a ton of issues.
But, the establishment flat-out abandoned all pretense at playing it straight. They *could* have taken him down, I think. Just look at the J6 Special Committee. That was a complete waste of breath, when it could have earned some actual political capital.
Shot in their own foot with their own gun. That’s my take, FWIW.
Indeed, if the Democrats had just accepted that they weren't entitled to control the entire composition of the J-6 committee, they'd still have had a controlling majority.
But they made the judgement that nothing short of complete control would be sufficient. They thought, apparently, that they couldn't have anybody AT ALL on the committee who wasn't out to get Trump, not so much as one person.
And given how wildly Schiff was lying about the testimony before the committee, maybe that was a reasonable judgement. But it meant that nobody who didn't already hate Trump took the committee seriously.
Is that really what you think happened? The human memory is truly an astonishing thing...
No matter how many times you lie about this, the Democrats did not try to control the “entire composition” of the J6 committee. They just didn’t let a couple of terrorists participate in the 9/11 investigation. They let anyone else the GOP wanted on. Including MAGA nutcases like Troy Nehls. They just excluded two people implicated in the insurrection.
The Dems did control the J6 committee. Then they held secret hearings and buried the evidence.
Of course Dems controlled the committee. The majority party controls all committees in Congress. But they did not control the entire committee. Most of the GOP simply refused to participate.
There were no "secret hearings" and no evidence was buried.
Simply denying outright what anybody can confirm with a moment's effort seems to be your signature move.
Not "secret" in the sense that people didn't know they were happening, dufus, "secret" in the sense that what happened during them wasn't public, and the committee subsequently deleted much of its records, which had to be forensically recovered. But turned out to be password protected; Much of what they tried to hide is still, yes, a "secret", known only to the members.
Most people — I'll wager virtually all native English speakers — understand the difference between "non-public" and "secret." And no records were deleted; nothing had to be "forensically recovered."
In politics, you are blind to reason and devoid of reasonableness.
WOW! An attempt to give a reasonable explanation to political behavior.
Your point is a very good one, and quite on target.
You said, “Trust in the establishment is gone.”
I believe that’s an overly broad statement. Much trust has been lost in the political establishment, and the news media, and other institutions that are now viewed as political actors (e.g. universities). But a tremendous amount of tacit trust remains in the bulk of our society and its institutions, and that’s why there’s relatively few attempts at subversion going on on the ground. People still wait calmly in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles, treat police officers with deference, and say “good morning” to bus drivers. (They also have a plan to vote, and not a plan to revolt.)
Most of all, I want to thank you for attributing the political shift to something other than malice (such as “fascist” aspirations). Your point is so reasonable that it reminds me how prevalent absurdly trashy reasoning is around here.
I guess we'll have to count it as a win that you seem to concede that fascism is bad.
And we'll count it as a loss that so many people believe, so obviously wrongly, that many Trump voters think fascism is good. It's like calling all left-leaning people "communists."
So #1?
This just keeps getting worse and worse...
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-starfleet-gazette-will-not-be-endorsing-a-candidate-for-president-of-the-united-federation-of-planets
I love McSweeney's, but hadn't seen that yet.
Thanks for the laughs!
Typical dynamics in these comments .
As noted by Brett and most every republican commentator here who all acknowledge that Trumps behavior on jan 6th was bad, yet every leftist commentator ignores and/or denies similar behavior by democrats (albeit actions which were of a lesser degree than jan 6th)
So #3?
Yep.
What is it? "Similar" or "of a lesser degree"? Are you hallucinating history or making a false equivalence?
Martinned2 37 mins ago
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What is it? “Similar” or “of a lesser degree”? Are you hallucinating history or making a false equivalence?
Brett has provided multiple examples through out history. like most leftists, you chose to ignore history.
I typed out a multi-paragraph argument for why people would support Trump despite January 6, but apparently I wasn't logged in and the site didn't save my comment.
Here are the cliffnotes:
January 6 threatened politicians, but the 2020 riots threatened the average American. The current candidate egged them on and even called for her supporters to bail the perpetrators out of prison. We had an entire city block in armed insurrection for as long as a month depending on how you measure it, and it was cheered on by Democrats. Across the country, Democrat-run governments refused to protect their citizens and prosecuted citizens who protected themselves and their neighbors. Harris choice of Walz as her running mate doubles down on her previous position.
Successive Democratic administrations have grown increasingly brazen in their collaboration with the intelligence community to spy on their opposition, to leak fraudulent information to the press, and to suppress information that might damage their candidates. The Justice Department has gone hard after their ideological enemies and soft on their allies. The adminstration has ignored Supreme Court rulings.
The current candidate concealed the President's declining mental state from the American people, she has fully embraced censorship, and she has said she would pack the courts. Her authoritarian tendencies were highlighted in the exchange with Tulsi Gabbard that sunk her ill-fated 2020 bid.
Notice I haven't contradicted any of the arguments against Trump. He is mostly as awful as they say - though not Hitler, and I wish he weren't the Republican nominee. But while Trump's threat to Democracy manifests uniquely, the threat he poses is not unique. Those who assert that it does are fixated on the tree and ignoring the forest. The reason you cannot believe that the race is so close is because Democrats are terrible for the same reason Trump is, even if they are more sophisticated and their hierarchy dispersed.
Furthermore, the progressive faction Harris represents (even if she wants to run from it now) is dominant in the halls of the media, culture, business, and academia, and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Those institutions will solidify power in a Harris administration and act as a balance to the power of a Trump administration.
So #5?
Also Trump's attempted coup threatened our entire democracy.
lets ignore the attempted coup staged by entrenched fbi operatives, russian hoax etc.
Yes, let's ignore the joint unicorn-leprechaun conspiracy to steal your precious bodily fluids, which is equally as real as what you said.
And the US intelligence community threatens our entire democracy.
The 1960s called; they want their bizarre leftist conspiracy theories back.
Bizarre conspiracy theories like the Gulf of Tonkin incident?
#3 (Dems do it too) and #5.
Well, yes. This is an explanation for why the vote is close, not for excusing Trump's culpability for his own misbehavior.
There was no attempted coup. How could it be a coup? Do you think that someone can control the USA govt by sitting in Pelosi's chair? That is not how the system works.
Trolling, but very very lazy trolling. Do better.
Both "coup" and "overthrow" aren't the best descriptions. Attemtping to steal the election is.
Autocoup is the right word. But I think "coup" works well enough.
good points - highlighting the extreme level of double standards of leftists.
I agree with most republicans that Trump has serious flaws, though vastly less authoritarian , vastly less of a threat to democracy (excluding the leftist version of democracy) than any of the democrats.
This is, of course, yet another lie. She did not call for anyone to bail anyone out of prison, let alone "perpetrators" of "riots."
Also, for the really slow authoritarians out there: bail is for people accused of crimes, not people who have committed crimes.
Snopes reports: Harris expressed support for a nonprofit called the Minnesota Freedom Fund (MFF), which pays criminal bail and immigration bonds, and encouraged her supporters to donate to it during the protests over Floyd's death in the summer of 2020.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/harris-protesters-bail/
Yes, I know. Do you see how encouraging people to donate to a bail fund is not actually the same thing as "calling for supporters to bail" anyone out of prison? Let alone "perpetrators" of "riots"?
Again: are you stupid, or dishonest?
I think you would be able to see why Josh Hawley supporting a bail fund for January 6 protesters would be seen as an act of encouragement and solidarity with the rioters.
If not, you are the one who is stupid or dishonest.
I guess I am stupid. What's the difference?
You don't know the difference between donating money to a not-for-profit group that will decide what to do with it, and giving money to a specific person? You don't know the difference between a protester and a rioter? You don't know the difference between someone who has been arrested and someone who has committed a crime?
Or the difference between bail and prison. Prison inmates are not bailable.
A not for profit who make no bones about what they've already decided to do with it.
You mean, make individualized determinations with respect to people in jail as to whether to post bail for them? Yes, they made it clear that they would keep doing exactly what they had been doing.
https://x.com/KamalaHarris/status/1267555018128965643?lang=en
See above. What she said is not what JD Joe claimed she said. Words have meaning.
I didn't claim she said anything. She encouraged supporters to contribute to a bail fund in the context of the 2020 riots.
Here is something she did say, in typical word-salad fashion: "They’re not going to stop, and everyone, beware. Because they’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop before election day in November, and they are not going to stop after election day. And everyone should take note of that on both levels. That they’re not going to let up. And they should not, and we should not."
That is not "word salad." That is entirely clear and grammatical and coherent.
Agree to disagree.
yes words have meanings –
She was raising bail money for “protesters” yet protesters were not the ones getting arrested. It was the “Rioters” that were getting arrested, not the protesters.
All you are doing is coloring over the sleigh of hand in the chosen words.
Is that your professional opinion as a criminal defense lawyer/bookkeeper? That everyone who is arrested is guilty?
Dude, I wached video and read reports of police going into a public park and violently breaking up a violin protest† and arresting people.
Police were not nearly as discerning as you want to think.
________
†About a dozen violinists playing violins while people sat nearby with signs.
I’m voting Libertarian (which is my natural inclination and who I picked in the last 2 presidential elections). I don’t live in a swing state I don’t have to even think about picking between the two really bad choices we’ve been offered, but I get supporting Trump (though I couldn’t vote for him myself). A few thoughts:
1) I suspect many voters, by the time of Jan 6, had tuned out all negative info about Trump. Because there was a relentless drumbeat of hyperbolic rhetoric about him (and a campaign to impeach him literally before he was inaugurated) people were hardened to it. Some of the heat was justified, some was made up or way overblown. “Crying Wolf” gets you ignored.
2) People vote for the laundry. Trump is on Team Republican, that is enough for many voters (as it was for my parents, who didn’t like his personality/character but hated Hilary Clinton and hadn’t voted Democrat since the 60s, though I think my mom maybe supported John Anderson).
3) People vote for the record, not just all the random things Trump says. Trump’s first term is remembered for disaster and chaos from the left. For the right, a few reliably conservative supreme court justices, Roe overturned, tax cuts, illegal immigration down/being dealt with seriously, Title IX lack of due process fixed, etc.
4) Harris is an unappealing alternative to many. Every time she appears and talks for any length, her lack of depth on basically any topic is profound. In addition to “I’m not Trump” (admittedly a strong point) she has very little. She doesn’t articulate any positive vision at all. She ran in 2020 and failed miserably (in the primary), she is not an effective campaigner by any means. I suspect a stronger Democrat (say Josh Shapiro?) selected in an actual primary would be putting on a much better showing.
Oh, god, another Brett. No, there was no such campaign. Which is why no impeachment inquiry was even begun for three years, after something corrupt came to light that he had done in the interim.
Even if one accepts this, it might be a reason to be unhappy with her, but it's not a reason to support Trump, given that 100% of the time over the last 8 years, he sounds like the guy who didn't do the reading assignment on any topic that comes up. "In conclusion, Libya is a land of contrasts" could've been written about him.
Wikipedia, hardly a bastion of conservative thought says “Various people and groups assert that former U.S. president Donald Trump engaged in impeachable activity both before and during his presidency,[1][2] and talk of impeachment began before he took office.[3][4]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_Donald_Trump Which was my memory of the time, perhaps you remember it differently.
As to your second point, feeling like the opponent is a lightweight stuffed shirt is a reason to vote for a candidate taken with other parts of the choice.
And, as I said, I don’t support Trump. I’ve not voted for him twice, and still won’t this time. I was trying to answer the OP about why people might understandably do so.
Yes, "various people and groups" always "assert" various things at various times. There are 330,000,000 people in the United States. Various people and groups assert that the lizard people are secretly manipulating the Super Bowl results in order to promote their pro-pancreatic cancer agenda. Was there any attempt of any sort by anyone in a position to do so to impeach Donald Trump? No.
You are moving goalposts and not responding to actual facts. The wiki cites articles in the NY Times and Vanity Fair. Not Internet randos on Twitter. The first call for impeachment in Congress I can find in a quick search was https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/17/politics/al-green-impeachment-call/index.html. A scant 4 months after inauguration.
It's not enough to link to articles; you have to read the articles. That CNN piece, for example, says that one backbencher member of Congress made a statement that Congress should open an impeachment investigation. Did Congress open an impeachment investigation, though? No. Did this member of Congress introduce articles of impeachment? No. Or a resolution calling for an investigation to begin? Also no. That does not describe a campaign to impeach Trump.
I lived thru and remember the era, and the sense that people wanted to get him (via impeachment or trial or any means necessary) was pretty widespread in my personal experience and memory. And my whole point was that sense of constant attack, which people on the right didn't feel was warranted, inoculated Trump from more serious accusations that might have had more merit. IMO the more recent and dubious legal attacks (using novel theories, or using crimes not normally prosecuted), served the same purpose. They give people cover to ignore *all* accusations and attacks if they want to.
I think I've about exhausted this back and forth. If you don't agree with me, so be it.
David, I've documented repeatedly that the campaign to impeach Trump began before he took office. For instance:
Could Donald Trump be Impeached Shortly After He Takes Office? April 17, 2016
Public Policy Polling, February 2, 2017: "Less than 2 weeks into Donald Trump's tenure as President, 40% of voters already want to impeach him. That's up from 35% of voters who wanted
to impeach him a week ago. Only 48% of voters say that they would be opposed to Trump's impeachment. "
It was 72% of people who'd voted for Clinton, in the cross-tabs.
No, it's absolutely true that Democrats wanted to impeach Trump, literally before he took office. They were talking about doing it before he even had the nomination nailed down.
You have not documented repeatedly any campaign by anyone to do anything. What you have done repeatedly is post the same two links that do not reflect any campaign to impeach Donald Trump.
There you go again. They were not doing anything, and Democrats did not want to impeach Trump. We know that for a fact, both because you haven't pointed to a single piece of evidence in favor of that, and even more importantly, because they didn't do any such thing.
David, there were many articles in the Nov 16 - Jan 17 time period where impeachment was openly speculated. You are not saying those articles do not exist, are you?
Not at all; I'm saying that random people "speculating" about what might happen do not add up to a campaign to do the thing they're speculating about.
Professor Post posed the following question:
"But I would have thought that the vast majority of Americans would view attempting to overthrow the government through unconstitutional means as a total disqualification for holding the highest office in the land, and would not countenance casting their vote for anyone who participated in such an attempt."
In answer, let me ask the Professor this. If you genuinely believed that a presidential election had been stolen by fraudulent voting, would you let this pass, knowing full well that if you did, it would happen again, thus making a mockery of our Constitution?
Your question, then, you see professor, only makes sense if you challenge an election you know to be *valid*. Otherwise it is a right and a duty to challenge it. And, judging by the polls, at least half or more of the electorate believes there was fraud in the 2020 election, which, considering the narrow margin of Biden's election, means that his win was illegitimate.
You see? You just need to step out of your political bubble, and voila! There's the answer to your question.
But nobody could legitimately believe that the election was fraudulent. It would take living not in a mere bubble, but in a loony bin, to think that. Trump's own lawyers, when they went to court, admitted they had no evidence of fraud.
I see you too live in a bubble. I've spent a lot of time looking at the evidence, all by myself, and at the statistics. Biden's win was statistically impossible. And there was abundant evidence of ballot stuffing when the count, in three different states, was mysteriously stopped. Of the 60 lawsuits about this, almost all (I believe all but three) were dismissed on technicalities, not on the evidence. So no one can claim the courts adjudicated these claims. No one needs Trump to convince them that this was a fraudulent election. And Trump's lawyers in ONE single case said they had no good evidence. They didn't make a blanket statement, as your message implies. You don't need to be in a loony bin to believe this. You just need to look with an open mind.
You made a funny.
And, of course, since this is impossible for all right-thinking people, there's absolutely no need to support that comment.
Show your work!
I will if you will...
WTF? You made a claim. Put up or shut up.
That literally isn't a thing. Something can be statistically improbable; it cannot be statistically impossible.
There was zero evidence of ballot stuffing, and no counts were mysteriously stopped.
Setting aside the legal ignorance of calling things like standing a "technicality," you believe incorrectly. All evidence presented was adjudicated, and rejected. (Not, of course, in each suit.)
No; they said they had no evidence. Period. Not no "good" evidence.
David Nieporent, I am amazed. I can’t believe someone who reads this magazine can be so uninformed as to deny facts. For example, counts were indeed stopped: to take but one instance, in Georgia, where counting stopped, supposedly because of a leak that never existed. Look it up. As for the rest of your comments: they’re just quibbling, or outright lies. Quibble away. Go to it.
For example, counts were not stopped. There was a water leak in Fulton County on the morning of Election Day that briefly paused counting; it resumed shortly thereafter, and continued. You've been lied to.
No, you have. There was no water leak. They just wanted to get rid of the Republican observers. Try reading something other than the WAPO or the NYT. Now, quibble on, "libertarian" who supports Democrats.
Your argument is that Republican voters have been taken in by the conman?
They believed it was fraudulent because Trump said so. Either Trump lied or is delusional.
But thanks, you answered the question. You are in Group #1.
Trump tried to overturn an election using the VP and fake electors. Is that the gist of the argument? Because I have seen no testimony nor conclusive evidence that is beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did so. Has the former VP Pence been interviewed under oath? I haven’t seen that and I know there hasn’t been any trial. I’d be willing to view such evidence, but no one has been able to bring it to court of law to be examined.
As to trying to be an authoritarian president, I think Trump has to stand in line behind Woodrow Wilson and FDR. Far back in line.
People seem to forget he tried to get the Capitol Police to accept National Guard assistance on 1/6. Why did they and the mayor of D. c. turn it down? We have yet to hear from the dozens, maybe 100 plus federal agents in the crowd on 1/6. Why is that? What were their orders?
I do know 14 million voters had their votes trashed when unnamed persons sent out a notice, not on White House stationary. Without the president’s signature. There was not one vote of any kind to make Ma. Harris the nominee, except the final convention vote. That’s 14 million disenfranchised voters.
I also have seen Democrat members of Congress claim they will refuse to certify the election if President Trump is the winner. Based on what legal findings? Are they not saying they are willing to commit the same crime they are accusing Trump with?
The government has tried to pressure Trump for the events on 1/6/21, but as I have read in numerous posts on this site, it appears the special counsel appointed to prosecute the former president appears to have been illegally appointed to the position.
In my view, until the facts of the events of 1/6 are fully and completely made public, there is a significant part of this country’s populace that will not believe the accusations. Too many of the so called conspiracies concerning surveillance of then candidate Trump, the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop, questions regarding possible voter fraud, have led the people of the country to lose trust in their government. Even now, actions in several states concerning voting are raising the question of voter fraud. People not getting ballots. Non citizens have voted. Others when voting have been told they already voted. Ballots received after the election, up to 3 days later, without postmarks, being accepted. How can people trust a system with so many public flaws? And all of the public flaws seeming to benefit one candidate over another.
Yet the topic author wants us to believe president Trump tried to overturn the last election. You’ve had 4 years to make your case in a court. Why haven’t you?
Hi David. Before Oct. 7 my confirmed decision is that I would not vote for Pres. Trump again. I voted for him before Jan. 6, but afterward thought I was forever done. Then Oct. 7 happened. And then the US elites of all ages exploded in antisemitism, aided by hordes of antisemitic mobs in cities and campuses across the U.S. That has given me pause. DJT has a pro-Israel and philosemitic track record better than any other president - GW Bush included. And right now I believe Israel and the Jewish people here in the U.S. confront an existential threat. I am a single-issue voter, and voting on that issue DJT has earned my vote. I am certainly conflicted - I thought what Trump did was disqualifying. And I am prepared to oppose quite a number of Trump policies (trade, special tax deals, spending, etc.). But I am not sure I can afford the luxury of failing to vote for him given the situation my fellow Jews here and in Israel face. (And needless to say, that issue precludes any vote for any Democrat, the party of Hamas and antisemitism.)