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"Wall Slammer" Kagan Seems to Endorse Ethics Code Enforcement at Supreme Court
Candid end of term comments from one of the Court's progressive justices.
Justice Elena Kagan did not write many opinions this term -- eleven total including her concurrences and dissents -- but she had quite a bit to say in remarks to the Ninth CIrcuit Judicial Conference earlier today, including how she handles her frustration with decisions that don't go her way.
Earlier this year, Justice Sotomayor acknowledged occasionally crying over decisions behind closed doors, Kagan confessed to a different response: "I get where the frustration comes from. I'm more of a wall-slammer."
The most headline-grabbing aspects of Justice Kagan's remarks concern the potential of an enforceable ethics code for the Supreme Court. From Politico's report,
"The thing that can be criticized is: Rules usually have enforcement mechanisms attached to them, and this set of rules does not," Kagan told a meeting of federal judges and lawyers.
Kagan said she welcomed the code the court announced last November but that the absence of any means of enforcing it was a glaring omission.
"It's a hard thing to do to figure out who exactly should be doing this and what kinds of sanctions would be appropriate for violations of the rules, but I feel as though we, however hard it is, that we could and should try to figure out some mechanism for doing this," . . .
"I think it would be quite bad … for us to do it to each other," she told the Ninth Circuit Judicial Conference.
One alternative she suggested was some sort of committee of lower court judges who could consider ethics complaints against sitting justices. She also suggested that creating such an enforcement mechanism could benefit justices falsely accused of unethical conduct.
"It would provide a sort of safe harbor. … Sometimes people accuse us of misconduct where we haven't engaged in misconduct. And, so, I think both in terms of enforcing the rules against people who have violated them, but also in protecting people who haven't violated them, I think a system like that would make sense," she said.
Justice Kagan also expressed concern about the proliferation of concurrences that attempt to spin or reframe majority opinions (something Justice Kagan did very little of this term, authoring only two concurrences).
"Everybody sort of tries to spin it one way or another," Kagan said. "Often people use separate opinions to pre-decide issues that aren't properly before the court and that may come before the court in a year or two and try to give signals as to how lower courts should decide that, which I don't think is right." . . .
"I don't know how lower courts are supposed to deal with it really. Mostly, I think they should deal with it by ignoring it, basically," she said.
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Wise words from Justice Kagan regarding concurring opinions that pre-decide issues (hello Justice Thomas in Trump v. United States) and her suggestion that lower court judges ignore those concurrences from the spin room. Too bad Judge Cannon didn't follow Justice Kagan's advice.
I'm not as sure about that. I have some friends who think it's bad when the court issues too many 5-4 decisions. Personally, I'm more bothered when they issue a bunch of 9-0 (or even 8-1) decisions. The problem here is that the Supreme Court is not the first to hear these cases. It takes a lot of work from the petitioners and lower courts to get things up to that level, and if it was so one-sided, why didn't they see it that way? Looking at it as game theory, it makes the law seem like a random decision.
So, these concurrencies that try to guide lower courts, and petitioners, even on related matters, might help things out by making it clearer and preventing the long slog up for a one-sided decision.
Again, maybe... Just trying to make the opposite case. I'm really not convinced either way.
I always felt 8-1 and 9-0 cases were examples of the ball being dropped somewhere along the line. Under the idea of, it is so obvious how did you miss it or get it so wrong.
Loving is a good example of the court telling governments an obvious fact which too many dodged because it was political poison.
Actually the bulk of SCOTUS decisions traditionally have been 9-0 or 8-1. Those tend to be decided earlier in the term and do not get the media attention that more closely divided cases do.
In the case of Thomas' concurrence, procedural issues are always before the court:
"Whether the Special Counsel’s office was “established by
Law” is not a trifling technicality. If Congress has not
reached a consensus that a particular office should exist,
the Executive lacks the power to unilaterally create and
then fill that office. Given that the Special Counsel purports to wield the Executive Branch’s power to prosecute, the consequences are weighty....
Those questions must be answered before this prosecution can proceed."
This is, of course, false. Procedural complaints that don't go to the court's jurisdiction can be waived or forfeited, and they're certainly not before the court when it's hearing an appeal of a different, specifically limited issue.
Its the Supreme Court, and there was an amicus brief making the argument, giving both parties ample notice it could be an issue.
However, the court didn't rule on the issue, the lower court did, so its all good.
In fact Thomas did Smith a service by letting him know he'd better take the issue seriously and Nixon would not save him.
Do you really think that the concurrence had any effect whatsoever on Judge Cannon's ruling?
I can’t know the counterfactual, but Thomas opened a door and provided some over. And then Cannon went through.
On the ethics question, Kagan is of course correct that it would be unworkable for the justices to enforce an ethics code against each other. Occasions to consider ethics that seriously imply circumstances where bad faith retaliations would be all too likely.
Lower court enforcements would be similarly vulnerable, and add the disadvantage to upset accustomed hierarchy.
Ethics enforcements (other than already-available impeachments) done by Congress or the executive branch implicate separation of powers problems.
By process of elimination, the source of a solution ought thus to become clear. Enforcement of ethics codes at the Supreme Court requires a power superior to the Court to do the enforcing. Such a power has existed since the founding, and ought to be used. It is, of course, the federal grand jury, which is a tribune of the jointly sovereign People themselves.
The grand jury is no part of any branch of government. Separation of powers does not apply. Sovereign power wielded according to pre-existing norms which could be enacted legally by Congress provides a solution.
Define the ethics violations to be constrained, whether as civil or criminal offenses. Empower grand juries to bring effective indictments, by requiring legally that the Justice Department shall prosecute without discretion legitimate indictments for violations of an existing ethics code. Specify the punishments as a matter of law. Hold any resulting trials in a court specially convened for the purpose in the DC circuit. Provide one level of appeal, but deny appeal to the Supreme Court. To prevent interference from the executive branch, make convictions self-enforcing, with disqualification from further Supreme Court service an automatic penalty, to be added to any others prescribed by Congress.
In short, turn the grand jury to the task of disciplining the Supreme Court. Use trials designed to find whether the jointly sovereign People's own requirement of tenure during good behavior has been honored to the People's satisfaction.
What sort of retaliation do you imagine? I can just barely see some options if the enforcing judge was from the justice's own circuit court but not so much otherwise.
Yes! We should let a DC grand jury discipline the SCOTUS!
A DC grand jury is well known to be fair and impartial, and to represent all of us People. Just like the DC Circuit Judges!
Fair and impartial. Those are the words that come to mind in every single one of us the People when "Washington D.C." is heard!
But who would be given the authority to empanel this grand jury in the first place and decide which charges they are to consider. Or are you suggesting there be a permanently empanelled jury? All in all, though, an interesting proposition
Hobie — Lawyers here should correct me if I am mistaken, but it is my impression that grand juries sit more-or-less continuously in every federal circuit. There may be a legal requirement already in place that they do so. If there is no such requirement, then maybe it is time to enact one.
District Courts in every federal judicial district regularly empanel grand juries, which sit year round. Federal prosecutors routinely present matters for investigation, but in the final analysis no one but the grand jurors themselves decide which charges they are to consider.
Setting aside the sovereign citizen nonsense, this is logistically nonsensical. Grand juries do not handle civil matters at all, and they are not free-floating bodies. They are convened by a court, and their output is administered by prosecutors. Requiring that the DOJ prosecute is not something that can be done, and caveating it by saying that it only has to do so for "legitimate" indictments creates a loophole as big as the rule.
Glad to see you now appreciate the role of the federal prosecutor in the grand jury process. Something you seem to have forgotten in complaining about the remedy ordered in the Cannon decision.
Although I disagree with David Nieporent on the Trump-indictment-dismissal-as-remedy question, there's not anything inconsistent with his position on that and the one he's articulating here.
I disagree. Above David recognizes that grand juries are "not free-floating bodies,” but entities whose "output is administered by prosecutors." “Requiring that the DOJ prosecute is not something that can be done.” And he’s right. There wouldn’t be an indictment without a duly authorized federal prosecutor deciding to bring a case before the grand jury and presenting evidence. In the Trump case, though, there was no constitutionally appointed officer who decided to bring a case before the grand jury or present evidence. David apparently had no issue with a “free-floating” body there.
It doesn't often happen, but a federal grand jury can act on its own without input from the prosecuting attorney. The participation of a prosecutor is by no means a sine qua non of a valid charging instrument.
Presentments have long fallen into disuse in federal courts, but that charging instrument remains authorized by the Fifth Amendment as a method of initiating a criminal prosecution. See Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43, 54 (1906) ("The grand jury acts on information of the district attorney or from its own knowledge or information otherwise obtained.")
There could be a runaway grand jury, but even that would only happen after a constitutionally appointed federal prosecutor decided to bring a case in the first place. And a grand jury could not independently present its own indictment. The prosecutor must sign it to begin a prosecution. But there was no runaway grand jury here. There was in fact no constitutionally appointed prosecutor to bring the case, present evidence, sign the indictment and prosecute.
“There could be a runaway grand jury, but even that would only happen after a constitutionally appointed federal prosecutor decided to bring a case in the first place.”
That, Riva, is a rank falsehood. “The very purpose of the requirement that a man be indicted by grand jury is to limit his jeopardy to offenses charged by a group of his fellow citizens acting independently of either prosecuting attorney or judge.” Stirone v. United States, 361 U.S. 212, 218 (1960) [emphasis added].
I have repeatedly cited Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 (1906), on these comment threads. While that decision has been modified on other grounds in Murphy v. Waterfront Com. of New York Harbor, 378 U.S. 52 (1964), Hale remains good law as to the historic independence of the grand jury from both the prosecutor and the judiciary. United States v. Williams, 504 U.S. 36, 47 (1992) (“In fact, the whole theory of [the grand jury’s] function is that it belongs to no branch of the institutional Government, serving as a kind of buffer or referee between the Government and the people.”)
Riva, have you bothered to read Hale v. Henkel? Yes or no?
Whatever the theoretical validity and use remains of a presentment, this case DID NOT involve one. And I would also direct you to the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure that require the signing of the indictment by the attorney for the Government, without which there is no valid indictment. Nothing was properly charged here.
I'll take that as an admission that you haven't bothered to read Hale. As Mark Twain may have said, “What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”
Per Fed.R.Crim.P. 1(b)(1), “Attorney for the government” includes:
The Attorney General appointed Jack Smith as Special Counsel on November 18, 2022 and expressly authorized him to prosecute federal crimes arising from the then-ongoing investigation referenced and described in the United States' Response to Motion for Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief, Donald J Trump v. United States, No. 9:22-CV-81294-AMC (S.D. Fla. Aug. 30, 2022) (ECF No. 48 at 5- 13), as well as any matters that arose or may arise directly from this investigation or that are within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a). https://www.justice.gov/d9/2023-10/10.06.23.%20-%20Special%20Counsel%20Oath%20Jack%20Smith.pdf
I thought we were discussing the remedy for the unconstitutional appointment, not the validity of the appointment itself? That rule of procedure is not a grant of statutory authority to the AG to appoint a constitutional officer. Being an illegal appointment, Smith was not "authorized" under the law to do anything.
No matter how many times you beg the question, I have never conceded that the Attorney General's appointment of Jack Smith as Special Counsel is unconstitutional.
You asserted that the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure that require the signing of the indictment by the attorney for the Government, without which there is no valid indictment. That is only partially correct. Rule 7(c)(1) does require that an indictment be signed by an attorney for the government, but it does not say that the signature of an attorney acting under color of a putative appointment by the Attorney General, whose appointment is later determined to be defective, will vitiate the indictment.
In any event, Jack Smith was an attorney for the government, per Rule 1(b)(1), when he signed the original indictment and the superseding indictment, as I have shown upthread. He was appointed by the Attorney General and expressly authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising out of the investigation in Florida.
"He was appointed by the Attorney General and expressly authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising out of the investigation in Florida."
And the question decided by the court, obviously not to your satisfaction, was whether he actually had the authority to so appoint and so authorize him. The court decided the answer to that was "no".
But the most glaring thing about the relationship between today's justice system and juries of all sorts, is that the people running the system are systematically trying to defeat the point of having juries, by keeping them ignorant of their actual rights and powers, and easily manipulated by controlling the information they're exposed to.
So, the grand jury may be independent of the prosecutor and judiciary as a matter of nominal law, but will they be told that?
Or will they be lied to about that, and anybody who is found to know that excluded, the way they do with regular juries?
Belllmore — Federal grand jurors at the commencement of their service are supplied by the government with a, Handbook, which succinctly reviews the history of the grand jury institution back to the time of Magna Carta. It is explicit on the subject of grand jury independence from government, which continues into the present. Whether others involved, including judges, prosecutors, or even David Nieporent, say otherwise, and thus confuse the issue in the minds of grand jurors remains another question.
Notably, state grand jury laws operate on various principles; some may not protect grand jury independence at all.
[duplicate comment deleted]
Yes: they must be convened by a court. Otherwise they’re just a bunch of cranks sitting around a conference room table.
I said whose output is administered by prosecutors. That is, after the grand jury has issued its indictment, the prosecutor takes over. Therefore, if there were a problem with the prosecutor, that would have no bearing on the validity of the indictment itself, and therefore there would be no basis for dismissing the indictment.
That is incorrect. Grand juries can act without prosecutors. (The former cannot prosecute the case, of course, but we’re not talking about prosecution; we’re talking about the step before that.) Nobody need “decide to bring a case before the grand jury.” A grand jury is free to act on its own.
No, your comments above merely highlight how wrong you are on the remedy issue before Judge Cannon. A federal grand jury cannot compel the attorney for the government to draft and sign an indictment. The grand jury cannot sign an indictment. And whatever presentment they could theoretically make is irrelevant because nothing like that remotely happened here. This case was brought by an illegally appointed officer, who had no authority to draft or sign anything it or present anything to a grand jury or to conduct grand jury proceedings, all of which occurred her only by virtue of the unconstitutional appointment. The record and the law are against you on this.
And the prosecution cannot proceed until it is signed. But a prosecutor's failure to sign it is not grounds for dismissing it. The indictment is valid the moment the grand jury issues it.
There was no valid federal prosecutor to decide to bring a case before the grand jury, conduct the grand jury proceedings, draft the indictment or sign the indictment. The whole process was invalid due to the appointments clause violation. There is no valid indictment to prosecute. The grand jury cannot present its own indictment. Now the AG could try to seek a new indictment or you could try to argue that the appointment was valid. I think the former is unlikely and that latter is not correct based on statutory grounds and also that the Nixon passing comments are dicta. But trying to argue that is still more reasonable than contending that the product of this illegal appointment is still somehow valid.
And what other choice did Judge Cannon have after finding the appointment to be constitutionally invalid? Order the case to proceed under an indictment produced by a process tainted by that same party she just found was unlawfully executing executive powers? Order the AG or US attorney to re-sign the indictment and proceed to trial? Where in the federal rules of criminal procedure is this even remotely authorized? And wouldn't this be doing what you noted way back when this comment chain started, requiring that DOJ to prosecute? “Requiring that the DOJ prosecute is not something that can be done."
Nieporent, you do not understand the historical place of the federal grand jury in American constitutionalism. What grand juries may do is, of course, up to the jointly sovereign People themselves, not up to you, and not up to the court system. You disagree with not guilty. You disagree with the content of the, "Handbook," the federal government supplies to every grand juror. You seem to be winging it.
Lathrop, you do not understand the constitution, the legal system, or the concept of sovereignty.
Persuasively argued Nieporent, right to the limit of your capacity.
Ethics is typically separate from law.
SL,
Skip the Jointly Sovereign People nonsense that opens another can of worms with WHICH Grand Jury.
Justice Kagan made a completely satisfactory suggestion of a body drawn from judges from the district courts. It would be easy to go along with that. Member's could be selected for 3 year terms via a random draw process.
I’m not a Surpreme but I believe there’s already a process to handle crimes and misdemeanors committed by Federal Judges. Wouldn’t even take a new law or Constitutional amendment
Frank
But not every ethical violation rises to the level of an impeachable offense. There needs to be a mechanism in place for such lesser offenses.
And the real problem is that there's a shamelessness that didn't exist in earlier times. Clarence Thomas basically did what Abe Fortas was forced off the court for a generation ago. Fortas had a sense of shame; Thomas doesn't. So, when Fortas was caught with his hand in the cookie jar, he self-policed by stepping down. We need an enforcement mechanism for justices like Thomas who apparently lack such an internal compass.
Just what I was about to say.
Unfortunately relying on a sense of shame doesn’t work any more.
(P.S. You reminded me how old I am; I remember the Fortas incident, and it was two generations ago!)
Yes, and since Obama's first term we've been shown ample evidence that Congress (especially the House) is permanently broken as an institution. Which means, as we have all seen, that impeachment is a dead mechanism. A new mechanism beyond the reach of partisan politicians needs to be created. A mechanism automatically triggered. What that can be I just don't know
Hobie, I’ve said for a long time that if Nixon had had the same Congress Trump had, Nixon would have finished out his second term. And if Trump had had the same Congress Nixon had, he’d have been gone a year into his term.
Yeah, that “Nixon” Congress was full of crooks, Sexual Predators(Predators? Ted Kennedy killed a woman, “Father”Drinian raped one (yeah right, just one, at least he wasn’t a Homo) and the Speaker Carl Albert was an Alcoholic Midget, Wilbur Mills almost drowned in the Tidal basin with “Fannie Fox” you can’t make this shit up
Frank
It didn't improve later; Remember during the Clinton impeachment, when Livingston was exposed as an adulterer by Larry Flint? (Probably using laundered Filegate files...)
And who did they replace him with? Yeah, pedophile Dennis Hastert.
I have serious doubts that Congressional leadership are any less subject to blackmail these days. Probably why the spooks never get any real regulation from Congress; The Congressional leadership don't dare piss them off.
Brett, I must give you credit that unlike Frank you at least were bipartisan in your naming of names. Though of course you're just deflecting from Nixon and Trump.
I don't disagree that Congress is far from perfect, but it is the only institution that is empowered to check a president who committed impeachable offenses, so we go with what we've got. Under Nixon we had a Congress willing to do its job and hold a criminal president to account. Under Trump we did not.
Under Nixon we had an actual, objective, uncomplicated crime: Burglary. Didn't require any novel legal theories, interpretations of ambiguous evidence.
Under Clinton we had that, too. Suborning perjury is a fairly unambiguous crime. Didn't matter anymore though.
For Trump? In the first impeachment it was conceded that there was no actual criminal act in evidence, they were trying to impeach him over the conduct of foreign policy. In the second, it was a crime that was never actually charged, because you had no actual legal evidence connecting Trump to the riot.
You just keep telling yourself that.
Why wouldn't I tell myself stuff that's true? The simple fact is that a straightforward burglary or subornation of perjury is much more objective than anything Trump was accused of in the impeachments.
If your case against somebody only persuades people who already hated him, you've got a lousy case.
You just keep telling yourself that.
If your defense of conduct that virtually everyone agreed was inappropriate is convincing only to you and true believers, then maybe you are just working tirelessly keep that lipstick on a pig.
The Republican Senate majority leader, and multiple other prominent Republicans, agreed that what Trump did after the 2020 election that he lost was impeachable. So you get the facts wrong when you claim only people "who already hated him". Which, taking your metric, means it is not a lousy case.
But you'll keep excusing inexcusable conduct because Republican. I'd respect you more if you admitted the truth about the man and his conduct while still saying you support him because "policies." His post-2020 conduct, lying about a stolen election and trying to remain in power nonetheless, was execrable. I know it, Mitch McConnell knows it, Lindsay Graham knew it until he pretended he didn't, and you know it.
"If your defense of conduct that virtually everyone agreed was inappropriate"
"Almost everyone" does NOT agree that Trump's conduct in Ukraine justified the first impeachment. So that's one down. I'll gladly agree that his conduct in contesting the 2020 election after the EC voted was inappropriate, though evidently not enough to justify depriving the electorate of the ability to ever vote for him again, since Democrats did not sanction their own members who attempted to suborn electors and contest his victory in 2016.
"The Republican Senate majority leader, and multiple other prominent Republicans, agreed that what Trump did after the 2020 election that he lost was impeachable."
Passing gas is "impeachable", if a majority of House members dislike you. Doesn't mean you'll be convicted. He wasn't.
"So you get the facts wrong when you claim only people “who already hated him”."
Oh, I think not. Are you really under the impression that the Republican leadership like Trump? Just because he is nominally a member of the same party? He was and is a direct threat to their continued control of the party. In 2020 they even refused to update the party platform, lest he have some input into what went into it.
Well, that delaying action is done, and they're losing their grip, but I doubt they've really reconciled themselves to the loss.
Brett: though evidently not enough to justify depriving the electorate of the ability to ever vote for him again, since Democrats did not sanction their own members who attempted to suborn electors and contest his victory in 2016.
I don't believe you're stupid enough to believe I'm stupid enough to believe you're stupid enough to actually believe this. A member of Congress voting is not the same thing as a President doing what Trump did. It's embarrassing that you keep pretending otherwise.
But I see you're all in on anything goes if a member of Congress ever did it without consequences. Again, go get some morals.
Doesn’t mean you’ll be convicted. He wasn’t.
And we know why he wasn't convicted. Mitch McConnell, for example, explicitly agreed that he deserved to be impeached but only voted against conviction on procedural grounds. You are slimier than Mitch McConnell. Live with that.
Although some of their remarks are a little unclear, 13 Republican Senators were highly critical of Trump's conduct, but voted to acquit on jurisdictional/procedural grounds. That would bring the total to 70, enough to convict. Four Republican Senators didn't explain their vote.
On the merits, 2/3 of the 2021 Senate agreed with me and disagrees with you that Trump's conduct was worthy of conviction, just a few like McConnell looked for a political out by claiming jurisdictional/procedural bars to conviction.
All three presidents committed crimes. Just when the first two happened we didn't have an entire population (I'm looking at you, Brett) ready to rationalize anything for the sake of power. Now we do. I'm sure if all you compromised hicks existed back in the day, Nixon's dalliances would have just been 'legitimate political discourse' and the Watergate break-in a misunderstood, courteous, late night cleaning service
Considering that the DOJ has a policy in place of not charging sitting Presidents (and since ultimately the President controls the DOJ in any case), it's kind of a neat trick to think that you're not allowed to impeach a President until they've been charged with a crime.
Yeah, that clearly makes no sense at all. Of course you can impeach a President before/without charging him with a crime.
But, if you impeach a President for something that wasn't a crime to begin with, expecting his own party to take the charge seriously is a bit of a stretch.
I mean, of course Democrats are going to be offended by a Republican President asking another country to stop ignoring corruption on the part of an important Democrat's son. But why would Republicans find it offensive?
Brett confused his own motivation to muddy the waters with complexity.
Simple as.
Find me a Repubiclown Senator who left a young woman to asphyxiate (not drowned, there's a difference) and I'll add him to my list.
Frank
Find me something that didn't happen 50 years ago and I may concede you have a point.
Try to be dignified and bow out gracefully, like Parkinsonian Joe.
The fact that you have to go back decades, and in some cases centuries, speaks volumes. Give it a rest. You used to be annoying; now you're just boring.
Yeah, but even if impeachment actually worked, this court has shown it has no qualms at inventing partisan power abilities and immunities. I wouldn’t put it past them to declare themselves immune. Harlan Thomas will find some decree in the Plymouth Colony charter about a dog catcher or some such shit and then – boom – original immunity
If we were to reach that level of dysfunction in which a Supreme Court justice were impeached and his colleagues attempted to set it aside, at that point we would have a constitutional crisis, pure and simple, and it would be up to the other two branches to check and balance the court. Congress could simply defund the Court, or the executive could send the necessary muscle to enforce the Senate's judgment. And if they refused to do so, then it would be up to the voters to hold them accountable for their failure to act.
But one of the dirty little secrets of our constitutional republic that has been brought to light by the Trump shenanigans is the extent to which it really does depend on people doing their jobs.
When was that ever a secret?
You STILL don't understand the issue with Trump not acting like a President, and you still want to dismantle lots and lots of our current civic institutions. So yeah it seems secret at least from you.
You're right: I'm unclear about exactly how Trump didn't act like a President. I get that you didn't LIKE him as President. I don't like Biden as President, either, but I don't confuse that with him not acting like a President.
I've already said that I thought he should have dropped his election challenge after the EC voted, and that the proposed approach to undoing that loss required Congress to exercise discretion in carrying out a ministerial role, counting those votes, and was thus wrong.
Urging Congress to do that was wrong, but I think not startlingly outside what has become normal in our politics. Which is why you have to keep calling it a "coup", and pretending that Trump was responsible for the riot; Without that, nothing he was doing was all that horrifying. Or anyway, unprecedentedly horrifying.
I mean, seriously: In 2016 Democrats urged Trump electors to be unfaithful. Members of Congress urged that!
Then there was that failed effort to challenge Trump's election during the EC count.
Not actually so different from what Trump was genuinely responsible for doing.
If Joe’s Philadelphia speech was the epitome of presidential decorum, I think we do without that for a while.
"In 2016 Democrats urged Trump electors to be unfaithful. Members of Congress urged that!"
This is the trick you and apologists like you pull. In response to something indefensible from Trump, you pretend it's just normal because some Democrat, somewhere said something kind of similar.
The problem with this argument for anyone but the braindead and the brownnoses is that the discussion about what Trump did that was disgusting. Hillary conceded the election, Biden gaveled down the challenge that has you so worked up, and Obama cooperated in a transition and attended his swearing in.
Sure, some backbencher among the 435 tried to get some publicity, that isn't the same as the President of the United States lying that a national election was "stolen" and then trying to remain in power through extraconstitutional means. You pretending otherwise is beneath you, Brett.
Trump was the President, Brett.
Different norms, different impact when they are broken, different quantity broken.
You are such a tool.
It's not just that "some" Democrat, "somewhere", did it. It's that members of Congress did it, and did the Democratic party think it deserved any sort of censure?
Nope.
Bellmore — You repeatedly conflate criminal statutes with high crimes and misdemeanors. They are not even related to each other. The former you understand. The latter do not understand. That term refers to offenses which damage American constitutionalism, whether or not they are otherwise criminal. Individual members of congress acting on their own are not even positioned to commit high crimes and misdemeanors, and of course they cannot be impeached.
Stop with the stupid conflations. Get them out of your head. They excuse nothing about Trump's conduct.
"Bellmore — You repeatedly conflate criminal statutes with high crimes and misdemeanors."
That is exactly what I'm NOT doing.
I'm saying that the House can impeach, and the Senate convict, for absolutely anything they have the votes for, crime or not.
But expecting a President's own party agree to impeach him over something that wasn't actually a crime is foolish in the extreme.
Brett Bellmore: “It’s not just that ‘some’ Democrat, ‘somewhere’, did it. It’s that members of Congress did it, and did the Democratic party think it deserved any sort of censure?”
So now that’s your standard? If a member of Congress votes in an indefensible way and doesn’t get censured, then a President is entitled to lie about losing and election and try to steal it. And they’re the same thing?
You’ve lost your moral compass. You should spend some time looking for it.
“If a member of Congress votes in an indefensible way and doesn’t get censured, then a President is entitled to lie about losing and election and try to steal it.”
Setting aside that urging electors to be unfaithful wasn’t voting, try to remember HOW Trump attempted to steal the election:
By urging members of Congress to vote in an indefensible way.
You do recall that’s what he was doing, right? Precisely zero members of Congress were fooled by the alternate slates, or even intended to be fooled. It was purely a procedural gambit to preserve the ability of members of Congress to vote in a particular way.
A way which it would have been wrong for them to vote, yes. But, Congress impeaches the President for asking members of Congress to vote in a particular way, but can’t be bothered to sanction members who actually DO try to vote in that way?
Color me unimpressed with how morally serious they are.
But expecting a President’s own party agree to impeach him over something that wasn’t actually a crime is foolish in the extreme.
Bellmore — Foolish in the minds only of people who do conflate criminal statutes with high crimes and misdemeanors—as you insist you do not—while demonstrating in the same comment that you do.
That conflation is arrived at contrary to founding intent, and contrary to history. We all agree that despite those misunderstandings, as a practical matter, MAGA types behave as you describe. That is not a defense of Trump, nor of MAGA, but instead it is a further condemnation of the degeneracy the MAGA movement has brought to American constitutionalism. That degeneracy has disabled the impeachment function, and thus threatens to deliver existential constitutional crisis.
Your own persistent participation has been voluntary. You should be ashamed of yourself.
By urging members of Congress to vote in an indefensible way.
That is neither what the articles of impeachment specified, nor the criminal case against him. Don't be a dishonest, amoral twit.
Impressive display of ignorance. And it’s still early. Not a good sign for the rest of your day.
You're projecting again Riva. You never open your mouth without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.
Kind of amusing to be accused of projection by the unbalanced left, for whom projection is a defining characteristic. They’re now literally projecting by accusing others of projection. Dizzying hypocrisy.
Well, unbalanced may be open for discussion but I'm hardly a leftist, so try again. I may seem like it to you but that's only because your own views are so extremist right they go off the chart.
By the way, did your parents know that you had been stillborn?
I saw a bunch of older MAGA people online say that their takeaway from the Trump administration was that Nixon should simply have refused to resign.
Funny, somehow I really don’t trust your characterization of the views of anyone who supports President Trump. Just stick with comments on your border Czar.
Well, the takeaway from the Clinton administration was that Nixon should have just burned all the tapes, wasn't it? He proved that Nixon's mistake wasn't the crime, it wasn't the stonewalling, it was that he eventually STOPPED stonewalling.
Stopping stonewalling is not how I learned Nixon acted.
But I also don’t see people argue Clinton was in a similar position to Nixon.
That's kind of my point: Clinton wasn't in a similar position to Nixon because of the lesson he learned from Nixon.
Not, "Don't commit crimes."
"Don't document your crimes."
I'm at a total loss, though, for what sort of mechanism that you could put in place that wouldn't either be impossibly hard to invoke outside of the sort of situations where impeachment would still work, (Like a Justice literally murders someone.) or subject to partisan capture and abuse.
Possibly define the 'ethics violations' at a sufficient level of specificity that they could be just ordinary criminal law, and enforced by criminal trial, with a conviction required to invoke sanctions?
Even there you'd run into the problem of the prosecutions probably being centered in DC, a city totally controlled and dominated by one party, and visibly partisan in its law enforcement.
The key is you don't kick them off the SCOTUS, you fine them or issue some other kind of reprimand.
If Trump wins Thomas probably retires, he's 76 and the party recognizes him as a liability, so he'll let someone replace with a less controversial partisan (and he'll cash in some favours).
But if Harris wins and Thomas does literally murder someone then the GOP will argue to keep him on until at least the trial reaches a verdict (hopefully after 2028) so Harris can't nominate his successor.
So any enforcement mechanism that actually kicks people off the court (or even off cases) is never going to get used. But something more akin to a speeding ticket, a consequence that the justices dislike just enough to change their behaviour, not that can be useful.
A fine they could probably construe as altering their renumeration, and so constitutionally barred. Likewise kicking them off the Court by any means save impeachment. But, yes, you could come up with some other sanction that they couldn't so dismiss. Like a really embarrassing red checkmark next to their name mandated to be in all the legal records, or even house arrest when the Court isn't in session.
"he’s 76 and the party recognizes him as a liability,"
You're projecting here. The average Republican views Roberts as a liability, not Thomas. Thomas is at least reliable.
Jacobins are funny when they lack power. Not so funny if they get into a position to implement their automatic triggers.
Funny how it’s the Conservative Black guy who gets your attention. You guys are still butt-hurt Clarence didn’t take a powder in 91” when that Cunt lipped Anita Hill accused him of what? Inviting her to watch Pornos?
Oh, and try not to use “Basically” Judge Judy would rip you a new anus for using a meaningless filler word, it’s just a different way of saying “like” or “man”
Frank “Like, man, basically tubular”
So find me a Supreme Court justice who is white, liberal, or both, who has recently been caught with his hand in the cookie jar similar to Thomas, and who has not been the subject of calls to resign. If you're going to what about, you need to at least find another situation that's actually on point.
But no, you're happy to make the ridiculous argument that it's racist to claim that ethics matters.
Ginsburg had her hand in the cookie jar the whole time she was on the bench. Do you not think fawning from academics, the media, and single females counts?
No, I don't think that counts. Supreme Court justices of all persuasions tend to get fawned over by the people who agree with them. Did she accept any gifts?
A LOT of airline tickets, yeah.
The reason I think this is political in going after Thomas, is because if you were just concerned about gifts, you'd go after Gorsuch, instead; That book advance was utterly insane, makes anything Thomas has gotten shrink into insignificance.
But Gorsuch is a swing justice on the current Court, while Thomas isn't, so they don't want to tick him off.
Reimbursing her for travel does not strike me as an ethical issue; you're grasping for straws. When someone is hired to give a speech, should they not be reimbursed for travel?
For the Gorsuch book it seems fine unless it's a sketchy publisher, there's no issue with the justices writing a book, unless they're deliberately writing opinions with the aim of building themselves a book audience.
As for the airline tickets, do you not want justices to be allowed to deliver speeches, or do you want them to pay for their own travel to do so? Reimbursements for travel are pretty non-controversial unless the speech is on a private yacht.
Btw, the idea that Gorsuch is now a swing vote is both insane and probably true.
There's no issue with the fact of an advance, the issue is that the advance was insanely large compared to sales.
It's like with Thomas selling that house; If he got market rate, or anything close to it, what's the big deal? But if you pay him five times market rate for the house, it does start to be a big deal.
Another failed comparison the only serves to underscore the departure from the norm of the person Brett is trying to defend.
Look, this is not so much a defense of Thomas, as it is pointing out that, if Democrats were actually concerned about ethics, rather than just trying to take Thomas out for reasons unrelated to ethics, they'd be going after Gorsuch, not Thomas.
Because that book advance was flatly absurd.
But she's dead Jim.
But she's dead Jim.
In a just world the U. S. Attorney for the District of Columbia would have put the 1991 Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Clarence Thomas's confirmation before the grand jury to sort out whether it was Thomas or Anita Hill who had committed perjury.
I actually would have been fine with that.
Hmm. They might use such tools against Republicans, never against Democrat lackeys like the pure Anita Hill.
Riva, the U. S. Attorney General at the time of the Senate hearings was Dick Thornburg, who was succeeded in November 1991 by William Barr. Neither would have risked letting the D.C. grand jury indict the Bush I administration House Negro.
As an aside, I argued before SCOTUS on the date that Thomas's confirmation was initially scheduled for a Judiciary Committee vote. That vote was postponed a few days in order to hear from Professor Hill. I suppose I am one of the few advocates in the past several decades to have argued before an all white Supreme Court.
House negro? Classy.
The GOP plantation is Candyland. Clarence Thomas is Stephen Warren.
Just so you know the correct response would have been to retract your gross insult.
Or maybe you should stop elevating sexual predators to the SCOTUS. You got two on there at the moment. And one former president. You seeing a trend there, homeboy?
Two great examples of what can be accomplished when the pathetic lies of the left are properly disregarded. Just like one disregards a child's public tantrum. Especially applicable to extremely irritating and deceitful emotionally immature children of the left who probably haven't bathed in while.
And we're back to the problem with DC, which is that the DC jury pool consists of better than 90% Democrats.
Maybe next year Congress can do something about that, having DC juries drawn from a wider area more representative of the country.
Brett, how would that comport with a criminal defendant’s Sixth Amendment right to trial by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed?
Do you claim that Congress can abrogate that right willy nilly?
D.C. isn't a state. Any crime committed in D.C. should be heard before a jury composed of people from the District of Maine or the District of Nebraska.
Does that apply to any other US territory that isn't a state? Federal crimes committed in Guam should be heard by people from California; federal crimes committed in Puerto Rico should be heard by Floridians?
Yes, constitutionally it DOES apply to any other US territory that isn't a state:
"The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed."
I didn't look it up, but Congress has most likely by law directed that crimes committed in DC will be tried in DC. If I'm wrong feel free to cite the statute that says so.
Indeed they have, which is why I suggested that Congress change that law.
That is a made up problem. Based on not understanding juries, people, or trial practice.
You *feel* it is true so you keep bringing it up. No one can tell you otherwise.
But it is otherwise.
Turns out voting Dem is not the same as being a white person in the Jim Crow South.
Much of the commentary here is from law dilettantes who have never tried to persuade a judge or jury of anything and whose polestar is IOKIYAR.
That's fine, except they don't want to learn otherwise or take an authority other than their own.
The solution is that while you are working in DC, try now to commit any crimes like fraud, graft or insurrection. Just like a black man would be wise not to commit crimes in Mississippi. Trump has his trials in Florida and Georgia where, I presume, you think it is more likely for him to get jurors who would vote not guilty for political reasons and not for the facts of the case. Is that the justice you're after, Brett?
But not every ethical violation rises to the level of an impeachable offense.
Congress is the only body constitutionally empowered to take a view on whether a Supreme Court Justice merits punishment for conduct that is not ipso facto criminal.
Whining about conduct that is neither criminal, nor regarded as impeachable by Congress, is simply masturbation.
There needs to be a mechanism in place for such lesser offenses.
No there doesn't. Content yourself with a stiff letter to the New York Times.
Congress is the only body constitutionally empowered to impeach, but that's a far cry from saying it's the only body empowered to punish non-criminal conduct. A state bar of which the judge is a member could discipline him, for example.
And if you think judges should be free to do anything they like so long as Congress doesn't think it's impeachable, we just disagree.
Sure, he can be disciplned by his golf club, or his masonic lodge. His children could cancel him. He just can't be punished in any way that interferes with his position on the court. Which is the point at issue.
No, it's not the point at issue.
First, it depends on how broadly you interpret interfering with his position on the court. Only Congress can actually remove him from office, but what about a six month or one year suspension? He's still a judge; he's just not hearing cases. What about a fine, or a public censure? He's still a judge, and he's still hearing cases, but he's suffered a penalty.
You seem to have adopted a false alternative, when there are plenty of other options.
A suspension would be plainly unconstitutional. He holds his office during good behavior. Preventing him from performing the duties of the office with a suspension is tantamount to depriving him of his office for the period of the suspension. A fine would be equally unconstitutional as a reduction in his compensation.
The position is different for inferior court judges as their offices are Congressional creations, which may be hemmed about with conditions. The borders of the office are defined by Congress. A Supreme Court Justice is a different beastie. The Constitution creates no conditions to his office at all, besides good behavior. And what that is is determined solely by impeachment proceedings.
As for a public censure, obviously Congress has unlimited powers of bloviation, and is welcome to regard a public censure as punishment. No doubt CJ Roberts would be deeply hurt. But I can't see Scalia or Thomas or Ginsburg or Stevens losing much sleep over it.
But if he's been found to have committed an ethical violation, it's not good behavior. Again, only Congress can remove him permanently, but nothing in the Constitution prevents some other entity from finding a lack of good behavior and acting accordingly.
And the idea that a fine is a reduction in compensation is silly. If I get a speeding ticket it doesn't mean my employment salary has gone down; it means that part of it has been diverted from what I would have preferred to spend it on.
A speeding ticket is imposed by the government on anybody who is speeding.
The “fine” that you are talking about is imposed only on a judge, by his employer, and only in respect of his employer’s assessment of his failings as an employee.
If you want an analogy it’s a deduction from wages for swearing or failing to tidy his workspace before going off shift.
No, it's not a deduction in wages. That's a monumentally stupid argument. He's still getting his full salary; the only difference is that he now has a financial obligation that he has to use part of it to pay. No different from any other financial obligation like rent or groceries. Is expecting someone to pay their bills a reduction in salary for them?
It's a deduction from wages, and it thereby reduces his compensation.
As I say, what makes it a deduction from wages is that it is imposed by his employer in respect of his employer's opinion of his deficiencies as an employee.
This is not the same as his expenditure on rent, or groceries - which are voluntary contractual transactions, unrelated to his employment and the compensation from it, nor the same as a speeding fine which is a punishment for a crime, applicable to any citizen, and wholly unrelated to his employment.
This really isn't difficult. The problem is simply that you are desperate to impose some extra-constitutional punishment on SCOTUS Justices in the hope of adjusting the arithmetic on the court, because you feel you lack the votes for imposing the constitutional punishment.
Just stick to the constitutional punishment. If they're out of line, impeach them. If you can't impeach them, then sit home and stew.
Your willingness to abet unethical behavior is noted.
Your argument would mean any federal employee who is fined has suffered a loss in wages since the same federal government also pays him. You’re trying to create a class of federal employees - Supreme Cpurt justices - who in practice can engage in unethical behavior without consequences. Nope.
Your argument would mean any federal employee who is fined has suffered a loss in wages since the same federal government also pays him.
Well yes. IFF the “fine” is imposed in respect of his conduct as an employee.
You’re trying to create a class of federal employees – Supreme Court justices – who in practice can engage in unethical behavior without [suffering a loss of compensation]
Not me. You’re gonna have to take that up with the folk who drafted and ratified Article III.
Maybe you shouldn’t impute to the framers things they didn’t actually say.
They did say that ” judges… shall……receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.”
This is a special rule for judges. There is no corresponding rule for other federal employees. That makes judges a special class for these purposes.
What we are disagreeing about is whether – in the case of any federal employee (or indeed any employee of any employer)– a financial penalty imposed by the employer on the employee, in respect of the employee’s perceived failings as an employee, constitutes a reduction in the employee’s compensation. I think it does.
Congress is the only body constitutionally empowered to take a view on whether a Supreme Court Justice merits punishment for conduct that is not ipso facto criminal.
Lee Moore — Almost true. But the Constitution does not exclude punishment by the jointly sovereign People themselves. Federal grand jury action is the way to make that happen. And of course federal grand juries are explicitly empowered by the Constitution, in the 5A.
Yes, it does. The so-called jointly sovereign People, to the extent they ever existed, surrendered all such sovereign power when they ratified the constitution. Except to the extent that they extraconstitutionally overthrow the government, they have no power.
The so-called jointly sovereign People, to the extent they ever existed, surrendered all such sovereign power when they ratified the constitution. Except to the extent that they extraconstitutionally overthrow the government, they have no power.
Nieporent — You are making that up. Perhaps because you think that to a libertarian it sounds plausible. There is no basis for it, not in political theory, and not in history.
To the extent that the Constitution may be said to have an author, it was founder James Wilson. He chose the words used in the draft. His hand wrote them down for presentation to the Convention. The members then made changes and engrossed the result as the final draft, ready for signing and printing. Here is Wilson on the topic you are guessing at, contradicting your conjecture:
There necessarily exists, in every government, a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable . . . Perhaps some politician, who has not considered with sufficient accuracy our political systems, would answer that, in our governments, the supreme power was vested in the constitutions . . . This opinion approaches a step nearer to the truth, but does not reach it. The truth is, that in our governments, the supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power remains in the people. As our constitutions are superior to our legislatures, so the people are superior to our constitutions. Indeed the superiority, in this last instance, is much greater; for the people possess over our constitution, control in act, as well as right. The consequence is, the people may change constitutions whenever and however they please. This is a right of which no positive institution can ever deprive them.
If you were correct, and Wilson mistaken, then, “supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable” power would be lodged in the Supreme Court, government could do as the Court pleased, and no citizen would have any rights he could vindicate, except at the pleasure of the Court. That has not been the history and tradition of American constitutionalism, as a moment’s reflection ought to convince you.
Instead, it has been the jointly sovereign power of the People to choose which rights citizens would enjoy. It has been the jointly sovereign power of the People which provides to individual citizens the capacity to stay the hand of government, and which loans to each of them a power greater than government’s, enabling continuous vindication of personal rights.
Constitutionalism constructed your way, on the basis of libertarian rationalism, which denies that continuously active sovereignty exists, would put a paradoxical end to individual rights. It would leave citizens, individually and jointly, exactly as powerful to constrain government as they are to constrain the Supreme Court. Which is to say, they would remain powerless, and at the mercy of government.
The American founding became a transformative landmark in political theory, world-wide, on the basis of the insight which Wilson enunciated, and which most of the other founders shared. It is a remarkable pity that you continue to deny it.
Repeating this quote for the hundredth time doesn't mean you grasp it. He's saying exactly what I said:
The consequence is, the people may change constitutions whenever and however they please.
Not "the people can ignore the constitution on whatever occasions they feel like." The constitution is binding until it is abrogated.
Nieporent — Wilson's quote, in its entirety, says what it says. No one needs you to truncate its meaning with a cherry-picked excerpt. Understanding requires more context, not less.
What, "positive institution," do you suppose Wilson referenced above, when he said no one could transgress the People's power? It was the entire content of the Constitution itself he referred to, and the government the Constitution empowered. He was saying literally that none of that constrains popular sovereignty at all.
Wilson underlined that meaning, saying the people enjoyed, "control in act, as well as right." You cannot just leave that unmentioned, as if Wilson had not said it.
Because the People enjoy not only the power to have authored the Constitution, but also the power to change it at any time, and to do so "however they please," it is nonsensical to posit that the Constitution constrains the People themselves. You may think that is a stretch, but it is standard 17th and 18th century political insight into the nature of sovereignty.
In fact, a major stumbling block for the Constitutional Convention was near-universal presumption among delegates, as a matter of what seemed to them conventional political wisdom, that to posit any constraint upon sovereignty, and to permit that to abide, would abolish whatever sovereignty suffered constraint. That struck many delegates as a theoretical limitation on the notions of federalism, and an obstacle to limited sovereignty for each state. They struggled mightily over that apparent contradiction, and finally resolved the argument more by exhausting themselves and setting it aside, than by arguing to any successful conclusion.
The history of 17th century Britain stands in opposition to your insistence. Questions of sovereignty, and its evolution, dominated politics during that interval. The issue has never subsequently remained so salient, or agitated public affairs so continuously and so fearsomely. It is safe to say that theoretical disputes over sovereignty remained dominant political questions for more than a century. And then they stopped.
That happened largely because success of the American experiment put the theoretical question to rest world-wide. It did that by invention of an alternative sovereign—one which by its nature implicated sovereign power in decisions affecting the welfare of a nation's subjects. Instead of kingly sovereignty—which by its nature bypassed the subjects' interests—the American People's invention of joint popular sovereignty assigned the entire power, along with freedom to act at pleasure and without constraint, to themselves. Thus, for the first time in history, the founders merged sovereign interests with subjects' interests. With benighted exceptions, the world has loved that notion ever since.
To understand that, you must understand Hobbes, as Wilson did. It is there that you find justification for Wilson's declaration, "There necessarily exists, in every government, a power from which there is no appeal, and which, for that reason, may be termed supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable." That notion, of course, is one folks schooled in a tradition of limited government find shocking. To get over the shock, it is required to notice that when Wilson references, "government," he posits not only the structure decreed by the Constitution, but the source of the power which issued the decree—in short, the notion of an all-powerful sovereign which must lie behind every Enlightenment-era nation state.
To understand that in broader context, there is a modern historical source which can help you out. One which offers limited support for you own view, but ultimately brings to it context that your insistence cannot overcome. Read Edmund Morgan's, Inventing the People: The Rise of Popular Sovereignty in England and America. It is a terrific read which treats the notion of sovereign theory as a down-to-earth practical account of what happened. It thus leaves the theory part a bit of a myth—if not actually a mystery—which it should be. That part you might like.
Then read any good academic history of 17th century England taken more broadly.
Finally, tackle Leviathan, and its interpreters, especially Michael Oakeshott. That will deliver broader insight into the intellectual history Enlightenment political theory.
You seem to look at these questions through a lens of 20th century libertarian rationalism. Of course, none of the history or theory under discussion could have been affected at all by anachronistic musings yet to be dreamed up centuries later.
Thus, if you want to make a case that the intellectual history of sovereignty as a political theory, and the evolution of American constitutionalism, have changed over time, and now look libertarian, have at it. Lay out your argument.
Let others judge how your notions stand up against James Wilson, Madison, Franklin, and other founders. Bystanders can decide for themselves how your libertarian notions comport with the structure of American constitutionalism, and whether they are satisfied by the puzzles and paradoxes such a comparison is bound to bring into focus.
But stop pretending you agree with the founders' notions of American constitutionalism. You do not yet begin to understand them. They were not even slightly libertarians.
There was and is no evidence of either Fortas or Thomas doing anything improper, though the circumstances do differ. It is true that a former client of Fortas, who was under investigation for fraud, solicited Fortas’s assistance in securing a presidential pardon. But there is no evidence that Fortas ever gave such assistance, and Fortas resigned only after Nixon’s AG threatened to prosecute him for tax evasion. Anyone with a brain can distinguish these facts from Thomas’s.
Thomas hasn't done anything remotely analogous to Fortas transgression, which was taking a lifetime 166k (2024 dollars) retainer from a Wall Street financier being investigated by the SEC, and wanted a pardon from Johnson.
William. O. Douglas at the same time a similar retainer arrangement from a Casino magnate, he didn't resign. So it wasn't just the cash, it was taking money from someone who had legal problems, and could pull strings. Fortas was not only on the court he was also an advisor to Johnson and had regular staff meetings in the Whitehouse.
" I’m not a Surpreme but I believe there’s already a process to handle crimes and misdemeanors committed by Federal Judges. "
Yes. That process has been employed several times.
Enlarging the Court would dilute the problems precipitated by a couple of bad apples on the Court.
So erect a POTUS who isn't a potted plant, a Congress that doesn't have Ham-Ass Concubines, and pass the law.
C'mon (Man!) the DemoKKKrat's have such a deep "Bench"! Peter Booty-Judge, Poke-a-Hontas, or maybe someone the Crazy Kids today can relate to, Bernie Sanders.
Or that Nuke-ular Agency guy who got fired for stealing women's clothes from airports.
Frank
Re DemoKKKrats:
Republicans like to point out that Democrats were the party of slavery and the KKK (without pointing out that that was decades ago), but whenever Democrats decide to take down monuments to slaveholders and slavery apologists, Republicans complain that that's their heritage. Care to explain that Frank?
Its certainly not Republican heritage, we killed over 250k of them.
As I recall we trampled out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored, whatever that means.
Let them have their statues and cemeteries, they serve as a useful reminder.
That's the brand; the party took in all the Confederates and acts like it.
Well I guess that's why we should use DemoKKKrats to remind you of the truth.
It sure does let everyone know who you are and when you stopped learning history.
Kazinski, your argument is simply disingenuous. You know that no slaveholder or Klansman would be welcome in today's Democratic Party; the only Klansmen to have recently run for public office did so as Republicans. If those Klansmen came back from the dead, today they would all be voting Republican. So whatever validity your argument may have had a century ago, today it is misleading at best.
Today's Republican South has as good or better race relations than the Urban Democratic States.
George Floyd, Rodney King, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Philando Castillo, Freddie Gray, Change Wright were all in overwhelmingly Democratic run areas, and to be sure some in the Republican South, like Breonna Taylor, and Walter Scott.
And of course the Brookings Institute documented a wave of new Black Migration to the South from Northern and Western States.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/a-new-great-migration-is-bringing-black-americans-back-to-the-south/
"That’s the brand; the party took in all the Confederates and acts like it."
Except you can look up who voted against, say, the 1964 Civil Rights Act and see that a total of 3 of them joined the GOP.
Meaning the rest did not.
The Supreme Court should provide a clear summary that is an official part of the opinion of what is the judgment of the court when the justices split in various ways.
You now have a variety of opinions where the justices split in multiple ways, joining this section or that, and it is rather confusing.
A summary of what section of the opinion each justice agrees with with a brief summary of what that section entails is not really asking for much
==
Kagan’s proposal is not asking for much. BTW, the liberals currently explain why they recuse, referencing the ethical guidelines. Why doesn’t Roberts do that too?
"The Supreme Court should provide a clear summary that is an official part of the opinion of what is the judgment of the court when the justices split in various ways."
Uh, SCOTUS has done exactly that for as long as I can remember. Take, for example, this dog's breakfast from University of California Regents v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265, 267-268 (1978):
The syllabus is not written by the Court. It is from the court reporter. It is not part of the decision.
Official part.
“NOTE: Where it is feasible, a syllabus (headnote) will be released, as is being done in connection with this case, at the time the opinion is issued. The syllabus constitutes no part of the opinion of the Court but has been prepared by the Reporter of Decisions for the convenience of the reader. See United States v. Detroit Timber & Lumber Co., 200 U. S. 321, 337. ”
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
The headnote is also often not a “clear summary” of what the justices support. A justice is said, e.g., not to have joined such and such a section. The reader then has to scroll down and see what it is and what they do support.
In a few cases, they even might disagree with some footnote. Again, it is not always noted what said footnote says.
What is with the lack of emotional control these liberal women have? Wall slammers and babies? They are emotional children.
It’s their Hyster, although I’m not sure Ellen or the fat Latina has one
They're women. That's what they do. And these two are both lesbians, which is why they champion the transgender perverts.
I now understand why Prof. Adler thought this blog was the right place for a discussion of this issue . . . from the clinger perspective.
Carry on, Volokh Conspiracy.
When you penetrate your partner, do you make him shower first? Or do you enjoy mixing your HIV infected liquids with his fecal matter?
These are your people, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason most of you should not expect your employers to be in the market for many more movement conservatives at the faculty level. Being on the side of bigotry, backwardness, superstition, and belligerent ignorance has -- and should have -- consequences.
This is your blog.
Ouch.
Very ouch.
Carry on, bigoted clingers.
He seems to know you pretty well.
Why don't you answer his question?
I know understand what inclined Orof. Whittington to join this blog.
Carry on, bigoted right-wing clingers. So far as your betters permit, that is.
I seem to recall Kavanaugh on the verge of tears during his confirmation hearings. Poor guy, just likes beer.
Yeah, what a crying pussy. Only being...*checks notes* falsely accused of gang rape in high school.
Who would be upset by THAT?
The only way to create an enforceable ethics code against the SC is to severely limit who can file an ethics complaint: no member of a co-equal branch of government; no attorney whose firm has had business or might have business before the court; no member of a political action committee; no member of a dark money group. Limits things, doesn’t it? People like AOC would flood the zone with bogus ethics complaint like she has with her bill of impeachment against Alito and Thomas.
Who cares what this evil witch has to say? She was the one who treated American servicemen/women as second-class citizens at Harvard. In a sane society, i.e., one with far fewer 'rats, she wouldn't be anywhere near a position of trust/respect.
In a sane society, she would be in a concentration camp.
These are your fans and target audience, Volokh Conspirators . . . and the reason your deans regret hiring you and wish you would get the hell off campus.
I don't know where they keep coming from. The pseudo-intellectual facade of this blog should have been repellent to ignorami like these. A Breitbart scrum is more their speed. But, whatever, they make easy victims
That's what John Wayne Gacy said, from a decayed Rust Belt shithole like you, well "Hobie" (if that really is your name) I ain't no Bandleader! (or a 12 year old boy either) Yeah, I heard your Stolen Valor story,
Frank
The low-grades commenters I understand. The internet enables misfits to congregate.
That people like Kerr, Somin, and Adler continue to associate with -- and continue to associate their employers with -- this flaming shitstorm of a white, male, right-wing blog is more difficult to understand.
I thought they were better than this.
I was wrong.
If I were dictator of the Judicial branch I would set a short page limit for concurrences and dissents. You lost. Get over it. For every Youngstown with an important concurrence there are a hundred or a thousand where the extra words just don't matter.
Libs are after the court because they lost defacto control they've had for decades until it went 6-3. When 5-4, you could usually count on at least 1 GOP nominee breaking ranks, Roberts or Tony K. most recently. Not always, but gay "marriage" was enacted and abortion protected, so lib grumbling was muted. Now, you have to turn 2 votes which is much more difficult, though not impossible [Bostock].
Its just transparent situational crocodile tears.
This so-called de facto lib control really means that the conservative SC were not conservative enough for you, and you write as though you think that the justices on the SC are required to follow a party whip.
"you think that the justices on the SC are required to follow a party whip."
Good catch. I do think that! SCOTUS is primarily a political body.
They are on the court because party supporters voted for the man who appointed them. They owe those voters on political infused issues. The justices can be independent on trademark and similar cases as much as they want.
As usual, the most boring and obvious level of discussion on these matters is the "it's all partisan" accusation. The accuser never seems to get that more is revealed about the accuser than about the subject at hand.
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Does a single Volokh Conspirator have the courage to say something about the daily stream of conservative bigotry spewed by their white, male, right-wing blog?
#Cowards
I like it, not really sure who you're talking about though, Revolting, you're the only one spewing anything, and I wish it was just Bigotry.
Frank
There is an ethical code and a related enforcement mechanism for all the other federal judges. Why aren't the Justices subject to the same rules and procedures?
Just because they are at the top of the org chart shouldn't mean they are immune from all the usual rules and enforcement thereof.
Seems to be a weird prejudice that once you rise to the top you're a "made guy" like in the mafia, or infallible like the pope. Makes no sense to my American idea that no one is above the law.
They are not immune to all the rules and enforcement thereof. The President is immune to all non-criminal ethics rules, short of impeachment, and maybe immune to some criminal statites.
Congress is immune to non-criminal ethics violations, except as adjudicated by their peers, and maybe immune to some criminal acts by the speech and debate clause.
The Supreme Court also being constitutional officers, are also immune to non-criminal ethics violations, and it would violate the constitution to make them subject to discipline by any other body except Congress through impeachment, or the courts under criminal law.
Ethics rules are probably Constitutional, but enforcing them is a different question. If the Judges self-enforce the rules, that's easy enough, but unsatisfying. If they are enforced through Congress' impeachment power, that's clearly constitutional, but impractical. If they are enforced through some kind of statutory enforcement by either Congress or the Executive branch, it would likely be Unconstitutional, but it depends on the details. It's likely an enforcement mechanism outside of the Court itself would require a Constitutional Amendment. Maybe they could do a whole bunch of things (including either an age limit or term limit) with a senior status precisely so Justices would be replaced in the event of a conflict.
Congress has the constitutional power to create federal tribunals (other than SCOTUS). Suppose Congress were to create a court to investigate and adjudicate judicial ethics violations in all federal courts including SCOTUS, with the membership thereof to be selected by the Judicial Conferences from the thirteen federal circuits. The court could itself hire Disciplinary Counsel to investigate complaints and prosecute violations.
I don't see any constitutional impediment to such a proposal.
What are the sanctions?
Informal reprimand, public censure, recommendation for impeachment, recommendation for criminal prosecution if appropriate.
So no real sanctions.
Enlargement of the Court by better Americans will address many of these problems in a satisfactory manner.
Why do you think you Jacobin's are great at conquering, but horrible at governing?
Like, why is virtually every that you people take over to govern inevitably turns to misery, poverty, and human suffering?
Various conservatives (including the Wall St. Journal and Jack Goldsmith) challenged President Biden’s support of reforms as if it were a threat to judicial independence.
This does not follow. Ethical rules, for instance, applied to lower courts can also be in some fashion applied to the Supreme Court without threatening right-minded judicial independence.
It also is clear that certain justices not only agree Congress has the power to do certain things [Kagan granted that as a general matter], but it is reasonable for them to do it. It might require an amendment, but also Justice Breyer has ultimately supported term limits.
An allusion was made to the old line that anything the House of Representatives determines warrants it can be impeachable.
The statement is pablum. SCOTUS by five votes also can decide something is unconstitutional based on something ridiculous.
The raw power to do something is granted. OTOH, there is some objective standards possible when determining what should be impeachable. Congress doesn’t just have the “power to impeach.” Specific words are used to determine what that means.
For various reasons, unlike a civil jury’s judgment possibly overturned on appeal as patently frivolous, what is impeachable is a political question.
This doesn’t give the House, each member of which swears an oath [or affirmation] to uphold the Constitution, no moral responsibilities, which when violated, can be challenged by the people at large.
Trump’s impeachments met the standard of the impeachment text in the Constitution. It is hard to find an actual impeachment that went to the Senate that did not meet it. Andrew Johnson’s was closer than most but especially for the time had some valid components at least to degree it was reasonable.
The recent Mayorkas impeachment was historically lame, much more an allegation of maladministration. I am not even sure that was “unconstitutionally” beyond the power of the House. The Senate reasonably decided so though I’m open to debate on the question.