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Thoughts on the Trump Immunity Decision
The Supreme Court's flawed decision largely ignores text and original meaning, and fails to resolve crucial issues.

Trump v. United States, Monday's Supreme Court decision on presidential immunity from criminal prosecution, has many flaws. Others, beginning with the dissenting justices, have pointed out most of them already. But I want to highlight two major problems: the majority's neglect of originalism, and the extremely fuzzy nature of the standards it adopts. If the decision has a saving grace, it's that the vagueness might turn out to make it less harmful than it seems at first sight, depending on how lower courts and possible future Supreme Court decisions interpret it.
Perhaps there is a better defense for the majority's approach than what they themselves offer. But the weakness of the Court's reasoning is still significant.
Chief Justice John Roberts' majority opinion holds that the president enjoys absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for the exercise of "core constitutional powers," that there is at least some degree of presidential immunity (either absolute or merely presumptive) for other "official acts," and that there is no immunity for purely "private acts." The most striking aspect of the decision is that it offers virtually no originalist or textualist support for any of this.
The liberal living-constitutionalist dissenting justices pay much more attention to originalist considerations here than the conservative originalist majority. As Justice Sonia Sotomayor's dissent point outs, nothing in the text or original meaning of the Constitution gives the president anything like this degree of immunity. In fact, text and original meaning cut the other way:
The Constitution's text contains no provision for immunity from criminal prosecution for former Presidents. Of course, "the silence of the Constitution on this score is not dispositive." United States v. Nixon, 418 U. S. 683, 706,n. 16 (1974)… The omission in the text of the Constitution is worth noting, however, for at least three reasons.
First, the Framers clearly knew how to provide for immunity from prosecution. They did provide a narrow immunity for legislators in the Speech or Debate Clause. See Art. I, §6, cl. 1 ("Senators and Representatives . . . shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place"). They did not extend the same or similar immunity to Presidents.
Second, "some state constitutions at the time of the Framing specifically provided 'express criminal immunities' to sitting governors." Brief for Scholars of Constitutional Law as Amici Curiae 4…. The Framers chose not to include similar language in the
Constitution to immunize the President. If the Framers "had wanted to create some constitutional privilege to shield the President . . . from criminal indictment," they
could have done so… They did not.Third, insofar as the Constitution does speak to this question, it actually contemplates some form of criminal liability for former Presidents. The majority correctly rejects
Trump's argument that a former President cannot be prosecuted unless he has been impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate for the same conduct…. The majority ignores, however, that the Impeachment Judgment Clause cuts against its own position. That Clause presumes the availability of criminal process as a backstop by establishing that an official impeached and convicted by the Senate "shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law." Art. I, §3, cl. 7 (emphasis added). That Clause clearly contemplates that a former President may be subject to criminal prosecution for the same conduct that resulted (or could have resulted) in an impeachment judgment—including conduct such as "Bribery," Art. II, §4, which implicates official acts almost by definition.Aware of its lack of textual support, the majority points out that this Court has "recognized Presidential immunities and privileges 'rooted in the constitutional tradition of the separation of powers and supported by our history….' " That is true, as far as it goes. Nothing in our history, however, supports the majority's entirely novel immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts.
The historical evidence that exists on Presidential immunity from criminal prosecution cuts decisively against it. For instance, Alexander Hamilton wrote that former Presidents would be "liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law." The Federalist No. 69…. For Hamilton, that was an important distinction between "the king of Great Britain," who was "sacred and inviolable," and the "President of the United States," who "would be amenable to personal punishment and disgrace." Id., at 458. In contrast to the king, the President should be subject to "personal responsibility" for his actions, "stand[ing] upon no better ground than a governor of New York, and upon worse ground than the governors of Maryland and Delaware," whose State Constitutions gave them some immunity…
At the Constitutional Convention, James Madison, who was aware that some state constitutions provided governors immunity, proposed that the Convention "conside[r]
what privileges ought to be allowed to the Executive…." There is no record of any such discussion…. Delegate Charles Pinckney later explained that "[t]he Convention which formed the Constitution well knew" that "no subject had been more abused than privilege," and so it "determined to . . . limi[t] privilege to what was necessary,
and no more." 3 id., at 385. "No privilege . . . was intended for [the] Executive." Ibid.2
Other commentators around the time of the Founding observed that federal officials had no immunity from prosecution, drawing no exception for the President…
The majority has no meaningful rebuttal to any of this. Their neglect of text and original meaning might be more defensible if there was strong precedent on the subject. But there is no such precedent, because the courts have never before considered the issue of presidential immunity from criminal prosecution.
The majority mainly relies on the consequentialist policy argument that the president must have extensive immunity so he won't be deterred from carrying out his duties with "bold and unhesitating action." They fail to explain why this consideration should outweigh the danger that sweeping immunity would incentivize presidents to commit horrific crimes and abuses of power - such as, for example, trying to use force and fraud to stay in power after losing a presidential election!
I would suggest that curbing such dangers is more than worth some reduction in "bold and unhesitating action." Indeed, there are many areas where the nation would better off if the executive were less bold, and took less action. Regardless, at least from an originalist point of view, the tradeoff here was made by the framers and ratifiers, and should not be second-guessed by the courts, at least not without a vastly more compelling reason than the majority gives us.
The majority does rely on modern precedent restricting civil liability for the president, such as Nixon v. Fitzgerald (1982). They note that criminal liability might have an even bigger chilling effect on presidential action. But they neglect the fact that presidential criminality might be a bigger menace to the republic and cause more harm than civil wrongdoing.
The majority in Nixon v. Fitzgerald recognized that "there is a lesser public interest in actions for civil damages than, for example, in criminal prosecutions." Thus, it offers little support for extending immunity to the criminal context. I think the dissenting justices in that close 5-4 case were right to argue that civil immunity should also be severely limited. As Justice Byron White wrote in his dissent, "I do not agree that, if the Office of President is to operate effectively, the holder of that Office must be permitted, without fear of liability and regardless of the function he is performing, deliberately to inflict injury on others by conduct that he knows violates the law." Regardless, the decision has little relevance to criminal liability, and cannot outweigh the text and original meaning.
In addition to being poorly grounded in the text and original meaning, the majority's ruling is also extremely vague and unclear on key points. It gives us very little guidance on how to tell the difference between "core powers" (subject to absolute immunity), and other "official acts" (which may not be). That seems like a crucial issue on which the justices should have given more guidance to lower courts.
Similarly, the Court refuses to tell us whether presidents get absolute immunity for non-core official acts, or merely presumptive immunity. Another whopper of an omission! If immunity in such cases is just presumptive, it is hard to tell what would be enough to overcome the presumption. The majority does suggest, at one point, that the president must "be immune from prosecution for an official act unless the Government can show that applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch." Taken literally, this would preclude prosecution for any acts even remotely connected to anything official, a there might always be at least some small danger of "intrusion" on executive power in such situations. But maybe a small or indirect danger isn't enough.
The crucial distinction between "official acts" and "private acts" is also poorly explained, though the court does indicate (wrongly, I think) that presidential motives cannot be considered in distinguishing between the two, and that official acts cannot be used as evidence in prosecuting private acts. The majority also holds (for no good reason, in my view) that various types of communications between the president and Department of Justice officials are automatically official and not subject to prosecution.
The majority's vagueness on key points might lead the decision to be less harmful than it initially seems. Lower courts and possible future Supreme Court rulings might decide on a narrow definition of "core powers," rule that other official acts get only presumptive immunity, and that the presumption can be overcome fairly easily. They could also potentially settle on a relatively narrow definition of what counts as an "official" act, as opposed to a "private one." If that happens, the majority might have some justification for claiming the dissenters are overly alarmist, and that they haven't placed the president "above the law" when it comes to criminal liability.
Justice Amy Coney Barrett's concurring opinion does indeed make some of these moves. As a result, she concludes that "the President's constitutional protection from prosecution is narrow," extending only to areas where he has "conclusive and preclusive authority," but not to those where "Congress has concurrent authority over many Government functions, and it may sometimes use that authority to regulate the President's official conduct, including by criminal statute."
If Justice Barrett's approach prevails, this would allow prosecution of much of Trump's post-election conduct in 2020-21. It would also dispose of a variety of dangerous scenarios, such as the now-famous "SEAL Team 6" hypothetical, where the president orders the military to assassinate political rivals. While the president is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, Congress, under Article I of the Constitution, has "concurrent authority" to makes "rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces." It can and does use that power to criminalize war crimes and other improper uses of the military. The Seal Team 6 assassination scenario surely qualifies.
But it's far from clear the other five majority justices are with Barrett on this, and some reason think they may not be, give their emphasis on the need to shield the president from prosecutions that might keep him from being "bold and unhesitating."
Barrett also rightly breaks with the majority on the issue of evidentiary use of official acts. Her argument on that score strikes me as compelling.
One can argue we don't need criminal liability to control presidential abuses of power. After all, it has never been used prior to Trump. But past presidents did commit some horrible acts that might have been prevented by fear of criminal prosecution. The Japanese internments in World War II are a notable example. The same goes for a slew of horrific civil liberties violations committed by Woodrow Wilson, among others. If Trump is the first president to be subject to criminal prosecution for acts committed while in office, it is in large part because some previous presidents have gotten away with crimes they should not have been allowed to commit with impunity. The Court should not elevate this indefensible neglect of presidential criminality to a binding constitutional principle.
To be sure, there is a genuine danger that political opponents would go after former presidents for petty offenses, in our world where the range of federal crimes has grown to vast proportions, and most adult Americans have probably committed a federal crime of some kind in the course of their lives. But that problem shoud be addressed by Congress passing legislation giving presidents targeted immunity for various minor offenses. Better still, it can eliminate many of these offenses from the books entirely. This is not an issue that should be resolved by judicial policymaking in defiance of the text and original meaning of the Constitution.
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Thank you, Ilya.
It is difficult to understand this opinion without ascribing some very bad motives to the majority.
They think it's important that Trump not be hindered from becoming president and that for any other president, it's unlikely to become an issue.
Amusing in a sad way how much attention has been spent the last few days on Biden's mental lapses when the alternative is a malevolent corrupt, authoritarian narcissistic felon who rapes women. Oh, sorry, "sexually assaults" women.
Hindered from becoming president? Or hindered from shit while president? You're smart, Brett. So why do you have those two things confused about a ruling on presidential power?
“To be sure, there is a genuine danger that political opponents would go after former presidents for petty offenses,“
Trump has declared that he would do this, if he gets in again. Haven’t you been listening?
But the Democrats would never do such a thing. Nosiree.
Oh stop. We don't need to hear from another "Trump can do no wrong" cultist.
An argument fit for an 8 year old.
They are worried that Trump will do to them what they are currently doing to him.
Gooses, genders and all that.
Yes, that is the worry, even though Trump was President for 4 years and did not prosecute his enemies.
Somin mentions Woodrow Wilson, who really did jail his political opponent. Jailing Wilson is no answer. We need to stop the political prosecutions.
"We need to stop the political prosecutions."
The are two current ongoing federal prosecutions of Donald Trump. Are you saying in both the DC case related to the aftermath of the 2020 presidential election, and the Mar a Lago documents case, Donald Trump did nothing wrong?
Yes, Trump did nothing wrong. Also, nothing wrong in the state prosecutions.
They are worried that Trump will do to them what they are currently doing to him.
And if they were doing it to him, retaliation by a POTUS for perceived private wrongs, using the immense powers of his office, would still be wrong. But of course they’re not doing it to him. That’s just signature Trumpy “every accusation is a confession” projection.
“To be sure, there is a genuine danger that political opponents would go after former presidents for petty offenses,“
Yet Roberts points out that this hasn't happened in over 200 years.
But it is happening now.
The NY civil case was absolutely politically motivated.
The Hush Money case even more so.
Fani Willis case was likely politically motivated, but she screwed it up so badly she may never be able to present it so we can find out.
Now both the DC and Florida cases are on life support.
And the Jack Smith cases in DC and Florida are politically motivated. They were only brought because Trump was running for President, and timed to interfere with the election.
They might have brought the documents case because they had already caught Biden in a worse position and needed a distraction.
To nobody's surprise, everything you wrote was false.
"Now both the DC and Florida cases are on life support."
That says absolutely nothing about their validity.
Because Biden already has done it. The Court is saying neither should.
IIIIIIlya just hates rulings that stop his fascist beliefs.
As I pointed out in another thread, why? People conflating a president "going after his political opponent" and a president going after his predecessor. But there are only a few times in history when those two are the same thing. Nothing in this ruling would've protected any candidate between 1916 and 2020.
"People conflating a president 'going after his political opponent' and a president going after his predecessor."
Exactly. The only situation addressed by this ruling is a president going after his predecessor. And very seldom is a predecessor any political danger to the following president(s).
As a normative matter, one can make that claim. As a descriptive matter, I think the answer is much simpler: the crimes¹ of most presidents — including the ones mentioned by Prof. Somin — are the sorts of crimes that most presidents commit. (Not to be tautological.) A president wants to be able to do those sorts of things himself, so he's not going to prosecute a predecessor for doing them. Trump's crimes were of a different nature for a different motive. They were not about exceeding his authority in the way he ran the country; they were purely of a personal character for personal gain.
¹I think misdeeds would be a better word than crimes. Although we regard Japanese internment as criminal now, it was blessed by SCOTUS at the time. Kind of hard to prosecute a president for doing what the courts allowed him to do.
Agreed. What we are seeing here is lazy, don’t want to took at the facts analysis.
That's right, Somin reveals his bigoted analysis by raising the Japanese relocation. That was legal. Almost every President has done something worse.
"The majority’s neglect of originalism”? That’s as cute as it is intellectually dishonest. The separation of powers doctrine stems from Marbury v Madison and the Federalist Papers. You don’t get more “original” than that. And it bears at least some mention that since the founding of this republic, a president has never been criminally charged for official acts. The only original thing here is the unprecedented abusive lawfare. But I suppose this author would prefer the DC circuit’s erudite analysis whereby a president can be prosecuted because he is being prosecuted.
Federalist Papers?
"For instance, Alexander Hamilton wrote that former Presidents would be "liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law." The Federalist No. 69…. For Hamilton, that was an important distinction between "the king of Great Britain," who was "sacred and inviolable," and the "President of the United States," who "would be amenable to personal punishment and disgrace." Id., at 458. "
And what language of Marbury are you particularly excited about?
Also, originalists at least pretend to begin with Constitutional text. Good luck with that.
Yes, the quote is dishonest. Here is the complete sentence in Federalist No 69.
"The President of the United States would be liable to be impeached, tried, and upon conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crime or misdemeanors, removed from office; and would afterwards be liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law."
Yet the majority opinion rejected Trump's claim he can only be convicted after impeachment. Then what?
Marbury and countless other precedents were grounded in the separation of powers. And you can quote inapt passages from the Federalist all you want. More appropriate is Madison from The Federalist No. 47 “[O]ne of the principal objections inculcated by the more respectable adversaries to the Constitution, is its supposed violation of the political maxim, that the legislative, executive, and judiciary departments ought to be separate and distinct. . . . The several departments of power are distributed and blended in such a manner as at once to destroy all symmetry and beauty of form, and to expose some of the essential parts of the edifice to the danger of being crushed by the disproportionate weight of other parts.”
But the main point is that this decision is entirely consistent with the law, history, and traditions of this country. The aberrations are the disgrace full handling of this matter by the lower courts. As I’ve said before, it is amusing to watch the left collectively lose their minds over this, but it would be nice to see a little more thoughtful reflection from the legal intelligentsia, who were obnoxiously dismissive of the merits of immunity and still can’t concede their errors.
"Separation of Powers" simply means one cannot take in the prerrogatives of another. It does not mean immunity from criminal actions that are made while performing so called "official duties" e.g. a pardon is indeed a prerrogative of the Executive, but not receiving a bribery for so. The pardon would still be valid, but the President nevertheless would be convicted for this crime.
Your auto-affirmative second paragraph tells nothing. You really didn't counter your first rebuttal with any textual or historical argument. I know it's hard because there is barely anything that supports it. Both the lower courts issued very sound judgments on this matter and handed it accordingly, unlike the High Court, who delayed this wrong decision unnecessarily. May that be a hallmark of the errouneousness of the decision. The Majority decision is the only one who reeks bad. Many legal conservatives I know are pointing out the wrongness of it.
I know you are a right-wing person, but can't you separate your passions from the law? I know it's often seen as an assumptious and cliché comment, but it's hard to see how Republican voters would shout out a Democratic President enjoys absolute immunity if he were caught receiving a bribe for an official act. Much of the House inquiries may as well be considered void. If your candidate Trump is elected he won't be there forever (at least I hope so). There will come Democratic admnistrations which you don't like and can commit crimes while within his "official duties". I won't hold my breath to see your coherence then.
Given that these justices are either textualists, originalists, or both, why do you suppose they came up with a ruling that seems completely atextual and non-originalist?
One theory, advocated by some, not me, but some, is that these purported orientations towards the law are actually just ways to rationalize desired outcomes. That's very compatible with what you just wrote.
But suppose that theory is wrong. Why else would a bunch of justices who are committed to the project of originalism and textualism biff it like this?
Originalism is just a tool used to achieve desired outcomes. And because of the vast variety of sources and vibes that an originalist can pluck out from history, it has the advantage of being able to justify any particular result you like.
Find, if you can, an originalist who reaches results contrary to their policy preferences.
The most honest thing the court could have done would have been to declare that the decision "...limited to the present circumstances...", as the court did in Bush v Gore (2000). Doing so would have been an admission by the majority that their interest was in protecting Donald Trump and not in rewriting the constitution. That would have allowed them to avoid criticism of the decision as being un-scholarly and sloppy. It's legal toxicity would have been contained in a kind of dormant state until a later, better court could rule in some similar case.
All court decisions are limited to the present circumstances.
One thing no one mentions is that prosecutors and judges have absolute criminal immunity for official actions. That was also totally supreme court made. What the supremes did is actually a create a level of immunity consistent with these other immunities. If we want to be totally originalist, perhaps we should reconsider those immunities. Or think through why those actors need immunity while the president doesn’t. Or maybe the immunity should be consistent across all these actors. It’s just not as clear a question as people want it to be.
1. Prosecutors and judges do not, in fact, have criminal immunity.
2. In spite of that, uninformed people like you do indeed mention it with some frequency.
Other than that, great point!
"One thing no one mentions is that prosecutors and judges have absolute criminal immunity for official actions. That was also totally supreme court made. What the supremes did is actually a create a level of immunity consistent with these other immunities. If we want to be totally originalist, perhaps we should reconsider those immunities. Or think through why those actors need immunity while the president doesn’t. Or maybe the immunity should be consistent across all these actors. It’s just not as clear a question as people want it to be."
Except that prosecutors and judges do not have absolute criminal immunity for official actions. As SCOTUS opined in Dennis v. Sparks, 449 U.S. 24, 31 (1980), "Judges are immune from § 1983 damages actions, but they are subject to criminal prosecutions as are other citizens. O'Shea v. Littleton, 414 U.S. 488, 503 (1974)."
In Imbler v. Pachtman, 424 U.S. 409, 429 (1976), the Court opined:
[Footnoted omitted.]
Unfortunately, many people such as yourself mention that even though it is 100% untrue. They have absolute civil immunity, not criminal. They have no criminal immunity at all.
"One thing no one mentions is that prosecutors and judges have absolute criminal immunity for official actions."
If you ever see Mike Nifong, tell him that. He should get a real kick out of it.
Thanks for the correction. The line between civil and criminal has blurred a lot. But certainly it’s a big step to add criminal immunity.
Do you know — does any government officials in our system have absolute immunity from criminal charges for official conduct?
Yes. Members of Congress, under the Speech & Debate Clause — which is actually in the constitution — and the president, under this ruling — which isn't.
There are easy solutions to these problems: (1) stop electing presidents who have a life-long history of ignoring and flouting the law; (2) if one is inadvertently elected, impeach him, convict him, and throw him out of office; (3) replace him with someone with a basic understanding of ethics, decency, and integrity; and (4) if he has the audacity to run for a second term, shift your support to someone who knows the difference between right and wrong.
That is what we are doing, by voting Biden out of office and electing Trump.
Your mother was a bigoted piece of shit who improved America by dying.
Happy Fourth of July in an improved and improving America!
"To be sure, there is a genuine danger that political opponents would go after former presidents for petty offenses, ... "
What the heck do think Biden is doing now ?
Joe Biden is a known degenerate and hateful person. He is a punk and a bully - a small minded twit installed into an office for which damage to the country has been done.
Reading SCOTUS opinions, any and all of them, correctly, always takes reading them in a mirror while hanging upside down and through layers of gauze and sunglasses and even then they're bullshit unless it's what you want them to be.
Be authentic, rational, and GOD forbid honest about what law and courts truly are. Quit gaslighting and excreting in public.
This current SCOTUS opinion is what Jack Smith wanted to protect Biden, nothing else. Why do you think Smith was hired ?
"What the heck do think Biden is doing now ?"
Right now, the Biden justice department is going after Donald Trump for trying to illegally overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election, and for illegally holding hundreds of documents with classification markings on them at Donald Trump's golf resort in Mar a Lago, and for obstructing justice in the return of those documents.
Do you consider those "petty offenses"?
How was it illegal?
Was there bribery?
Forgery?
Perjury?
It can and does use that power to criminalize war crimes and other improper uses of the military. The Seal Team 6 assassination scenario surely qualifies.
That could lead to an interesting defense in a presidential assassination case.
Seal Team 6 Defendant: "The President said kill his opponent. If you don't, then I will kill you, and you know I have immunity if I do it. He was right of course, so I shot him in self-defense."
As I said in Mondays open thread, Professors never admit they were wrong on a case, they just explain why the court was wrong to disagree with them.
Not that I'm criticizing Ilya, I still think Wickard was wrongly decided.
The decision is wrong on a fundamental level. The idea that we want presidents to be 'bold and unhesitant' is wrong-headed. We want presidents to hesitate before committing criminal acts with the power of the government behind them, or even before violating the rights of the people. They should be accountable for doing such things in a court of law.
No one should have immunity. Not prosecutors, not cops, and certainly not presidents. The more power you have, the *weaker* the argument for immunity is, because the potential for harm (and the need for deterrence) is greater.
(Of course, politically-motivated prosecutions are also a problem, but immunity to all or most prosecution is not the answer).
The Court was not asked to overrule its prior precedents upholding immunity.
I appreciate this analysis.
I don’t think Justice Barrett goes anywhere far enough. I appreciate she is more sane but that only goes so far. A libertarian in particular should have a high standard here.
The POTUS can sometimes be prosecuted for official acts that involve pure presidential power. I’m not supportive of unwarranted restraints to checks and balances. There are enough in place without inventing some.
Also, Barrett went along with most of the opinion.
This is not an issue that should be resolved by judicial policymaking in defiance of the text and original meaning of the Constitution
First and foremost, the " text and original meaning of the Constitution" were not at issue here, because none of the litigants called for sweeping away the precedents that might contradict this.
The United States did not demand that Nixon v. Fitzgerald nor Imbler v. Pachtman be overruled, so the Supreme Court had no occasion to reconsider the doctrine of immunity.
As for determining if immunity applies, I do believe that the test enunciated in Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800 (1982). In Harlow, immunity applies unless the alleged conduct violates “clearly established” law id. at 818.
Harlow, right or wrong, was about civil immunity. It said not one word to suggest that criminal immunity existed; indeed, it suggested the opposite, by noting that the public interest in prosecuting crimes is much stronger.
What is wrong with the Harlow test?
"First and foremost, the ” text and original meaning of the Constitution” were not at issue here, because none of the litigants called for sweeping away the precedents that might contradict this."
I think you need some lessons on constitutional law.
There is an enormous difference between a President who exceeds the law because he thinks doing so is necessary for the good of the country, and a President who violates the law for his own personal benefit.
There is just no comparison betwen President Lincoln and President Roosevelt’s suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus and actions imprisoning people without trial in time of war because they sincerely thought, rightly or wrongly, that the United States was in genuine imminent danger and urgent action was needed to save it, and from which they accrued no direct personal benefit of any kind, and President Trump’s efforts to overturn the 2020 election in order to stay in office for his own personal benefit.
I think that Lincoln and Roosevelt should be immune.
I think it’s kind of moot.
Disagree. Whether the scope of Presidential immunity ahould be defined in a way that covers or does not cover various past actions of past Presidents that subsequently came to be dissapproved is very relevant to the current debate about what the scope of Presidential immunity should be. Considering past precedents helps avoid a definition that’s too myopically focused on and limited by the current situation.
No, I'm pretty sure that Lincoln and Roosevelt can't be prosecuted. No cadaver synods for us.
Payback for the whole Mueller investogation was for the good of the country.
So how does this apply to Obama's ordered assassination of two US citizens?
The justification was that they were terrorists.
Should he be prosecuted for that?
"So how does this apply to Obama’s ordered assassination of two US citizens?
The justification was that they were terrorists."
The justification is that they were *alleged* terrorists. Big difference!
"Should he be prosecuted for that?"
Absolutely. He ordered the execution of two U.S. citizens, based on his opinion that they were terrorists. One of them was a 16-year-old boy who was having lunch with his cousin at an outdoor restaurant in Yemen, weeks after his father had been executed. There is no possible excuse for executing a 16-year-old boy having lunch at an outdoor restaurant in Yemen, on the basis of any immediate threat to anyone in the United States.
Both were executed without "due process of law," as required by the Fifth Amendment.
But would the Special Counsel and dissenters agree? I suspect that they wouldn't. Not because of politics but because target lists in war zones are squarely within the heart of the President's authority that should not be second-guessed after the fact.
"But would the Special Counsel and dissenters agree? I suspect that they wouldn’t. Not because of politics but because target lists in war zones are squarely within the heart of the President’s authority that should not be second-guessed after the fact."
1) The U.S. was not at war with Yemen.
2) The Fifth Amendment forbids taking the life of a U.S. citizen without "due process of law."
3) Targeting civilians is a crime. (You can check with William Calley about that.)
He didn’t “order the execution” of a 16-year-old boy.
The teen was not targeted. He was killed accidentally as a result of an attack targeting someone else. Innocents are killed accidentally during lawful usages of lethal force.
This shows the problems with the use of force generally but that is a broader issue.
Anwar al-Awlaki was not “assassinated.” He was not a civil political leader targeted for death. He was a military enemy.
He was not just a “civilian.” He was an al Qaeda leader. Congress authorized lethal force against them. The backup argument was he was an imminent threat.
His father brought a federal lawsuit & the district court in part held that it was a political question. It recognized that there was no need to go to court first to obtain authorization. The policy judgment can be debated, but it was not criminal.