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Presidential Immunity As a Question of Executive Power
There is no textual basis for "immunity" as such, but there are structural reasons why some degree of insulation is inevitable.
Justice Barrett's concurring opinion in Trump v. United States is more satisfying than the majority on several counts. On the issues upon which Barrett and the Court's majority disagree, she has the better of the argument.
Given the lack of any explicit textual basis for presidential immunity, I also believe her formulation of how to think about presidential "immunity" as a consequence of the nature of executive power to be more helpful than that offered by the majority (though, to be fair, prior Court decisions had relied upon a more traditional immunity formulation).
In short, Barrett explains that if there are some exercises of executive power that are beyond Congress's reach (other than through impeachment), then those exercises of executive power cannot be criminalized. From her opinion:
the Constitution prohibits Congress from criminalizing a President's exercise of core Article II powers and closely related conduct. . . . The Court describes the President's constitutional protection from certain prosecutions as an "immunity." As I see it, that term is shorthand for two propositions: The President can challenge the constitutionality of a criminal statute as applied to official acts alleged in the indictment, and he can obtain interlocutory review of the trial court's ruling.
There appears to be substantial agreement on the first point. Like the Court, the dissenting Justices and the Special Counsel all accept that some prosecutions of a President's official conduct may be unconstitutional. . . . As for interlocutory review, our precedent recognizes that resolving certain legal issues before trial is necessary to safeguard important constitutional interests—here, Executive Branch independence on matters that Article II assigns to the President's discretion.
Properly conceived, the President's constitutional protection from prosecution is narrow. The Court leaves open the President for any official conduct, instructing the lower courts to address that question in the first instance. . . . I would have answered it now. Though I agree that a President cannot be held criminally liable for conduct within his "conclusive and preclusive" authority and closely related acts, . . . the Constitution does not vest every exercise of executive power in the President's sole discretion, Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U. S. 579, 637 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring). Congress has concurrent authority over many Government functions, and it may sometimes use that authority to regulate the President's official conduct, including by criminal statute. Article II poses no barrier to prosecution in such cases.
I would thus assess the validity of criminal charges predicated on most official acts—i.e., those falling outside of the President's core executive power—in two steps. The first question is whether the relevant criminal statute reaches the President's official conduct. Not every broadly worded statute does. For example, §956 covers conspiracy to murder in a foreign country and does not expressly exclude the President's decision to, say, order a hostage rescue mission abroad. 18 U. S. C. §956(a). The underlying murder statute, however, covers only "unlawful" killings. §1111. The Office of Legal Counsel has interpreted that phrase to reflect a public-authority exception for official acts involving the military and law enforcement. Memorandum from D. Barron, Acting Assistant Atty. Gen., to E. Holder, Atty. Gen., Re: Applicability of Federal Criminal Laws and the Constitution to Contemplated Lethal Operations Against Shaykh Anwar al-Aulaqi 12–19 (July 16, 2010); . . . I express no view about the merits of that interpretation, but it shows that the threshold question of statutory interpretation is a nontrivial step. . . .
This two-step analysis—considering first whether the statute applies and then whether its application to the particular facts is constitutional—is similar to the approach that the Special Counsel presses in this Court. . . . It is also our usual approach to considering the validity of statutes in situations raising a constitutional question. See, e.g., Seila Law LLC v. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, 591 U. S. 197, 213, 229 (2020). An important difference in this context is that the President is entitled to an interlocutory appeal of the trial court's ruling. . . . A criminal defendant in federal court normally must wait until after trial to seek review of the trial court's refusal to dismiss charges. . . . But where trial itself threatens certain constitutional interests, we have treated the trial court's resolution of the issue as a "final decision" for purposes of appellate jurisdiction. . . .
Her opinion concludes:
The Constitution does not insulate Presidents from criminal liability for official acts. But any statute regulating the exercise of executive power is subject to a constitutional challenge. . . . A criminal statute is no exception. Thus, a President facing prosecution may challenge the constitutionality of a criminal statute as applied to official acts alleged in the indictment. If that challenge fails, however, he must stand trial.
I would have preferred it had the Chief Justice followed Justice Barrett's lead (and had it agreed with her on the evidentiary question addressed in part III-C of the majority opinion), but that was not to be. I suspect the Chief was working hard to hold a majority together, but was unable to make concessions to Barrett while keeping the other conservatives aboard, and if there was no prospect of building a clear majority to his left, the Chief wrote the opinion that could hold five votes throughout.
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If nothing else, this decision shows that the court’s claims to textualism and originalism are nonsense and that this is a purely outcome-oriented court. The framers new how to provide immunity because they did in the speech and debate clause. If the argument is that the structure of the constitution supports this how is that argument any different than the argument for a right to privacy or substantive due process?
If the argument is that the structure of the constitution supports this…
Well, that’s not. the argument, so…there goes that false premise.
Correct, it’s much weaker than that. The argument is that the president might not be “bold” if subject to criminal prosecution. Creative applications of this “boldness clause” are left to the imagination of the reader.
Correct,
So your comment was based on a logical fallacy, and now you’re moving the goalposts. I’ll wait a bit until you decide what your argument really is.
My mistake. I failed to notice the change in commenter to whom I was responding.
WTF? Not sure if you’re really this stupid or putting on show. “We conclude that under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of Presidential power requires that a former President have some immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts during his tenure in office.”
Thanks for saving me the time. I’d love to know what this person thinks the argument is.
.
That seems destined to be a relatively short-term victory. Add this one to the pile of recent partisan decisions whose shelf life may be brief.
Like Biden’s diapers now that the shit has hit the fanbois?
Open wider, clinger
How much of this debate is a semantic argument about hypotheticals?
For the actual charges, how different are the individual justices on their opinion of which charges are prosecutable?
“Constitution prohibits Congress from criminalizing a President’s exercise of core Article II powers and closely related conduct”
Text of the Constitution:
“Judgement in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgement and Punishment, according to Law.”
If the “exercise” (Jackson’s example of poisoning a Cabinet member as the means of removal) violates appropriately neutral (shades of the rule for free exercise of religion) rules, yes, it can be criminalized.
The Tenure of Office Act might have been unconstitutional. There remain appropriate criminal statutes that could apply to even that situation. Criminal threats come to mind.
As a comment notes, yes, there is a reference to “high crimes,” which this portion of the text shows can also be addressed in the criminal law. Multiple justices granted this in their confirmation hearings, including John Roberts.
BTW, it’s somewhat inconvenient that the Constitution breaks up the impeachment provisions.
If the “exercise” (Jackson’s example of poisoning a Cabinet member as the means of removal) violates appropriately neutral (shades of the rule for free exercise of religion) rules, yes, it can be criminalized.
Was omitting of the “of core Article II powers” part of the “exercise” intentional? Are you suggesting that “poisoning of a Cabinet member as the means of removal” could be reasonably argued as a “core Article II power”?
Removal of Cabinet members is a “core” Art. II power.
If immunity suddenly drops out because the means of practicing the core power is illegitimate, what is left to debate?
Trump should be prosecuted since like poisoning people he broke general laws. The fact that “core” features were involved doesn’t change that, as you say, since even there you can’t do it illegitimately.
Which suggests me including that in would be redundant.
Removal of Cabinet members is a “core” Art. II power.
If immunity suddenly drops out because the means of practicing the core power is illegitimate, what is left to debate?
No, “removal” of cabinet members is not the the power in question. “Dismissal” is, which simply means to terminate their employment in a particular position, not to terminate them with extreme prejudice. So, no…murdering people in order to take them off the federal payroll is not a core presidential power.
This entire line of argumentation is based on a silly game of language torture.
Can we all agree now that Pres. Richard Nixon was innocent?
Only a particularly worthless right-wing son of a bitch would believe that. They kind of dumbass who believes fairy tales are true, too.
Know any losers like that, Roger S?
Well, relative to Trump he was a saint.
Neither Barrett nor Roberts confronts the central ridiculousness here: the more a president abuses the tools of power, the stronger his immunity. Run off a criminally fraudulent document on the White House printer: probably not immune, order a cabinet official to transfer the contents of the U.S. Treasury to your bank account: almost certainly immune. Deeply stupid, and obviously inconsistent with the Impeachment Clause’s specific mention of bribery–which by definition includes official acts–among the “crimes” for which presidents are responsible.
“inconsistent with the Impeachment Clause”
So? That clause governs impeachments, not criminal law. Nothing in this case impacts the political process we call impeachment.
Because the Constitution specifically provides that crimes that are the subject of impeachment can also be prosecuted, and it takes Alito-esque levels of disingenousness to read “oh, except for bribery, we only want presidents impeached for that, not tried, heavens forfend.”
Because the Constitution specifically provides that crimes that are the subject of impeachment can also be prosecuted
Where? Recall that “high crimes and misdemeanors” are whatever Congress decide they are, and are not limited to actual statutory offenses.
Art. 1, sec. 3: an impeached and convicted official “shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.”
The President can be impeached and convicted for “treason, bribery, and other high crimes,” etc.
To fashion reasoning that makes it impossible for the president to be convicted of bribery blatantly ignores the text.
specific mention of bribery–which by definition includes official acts–among the “crimes” for which presidents are responsible.
Nope. Bribery is complete upon taking the bribe. The bribed party does not have to do anything, official or not, to be guilty. So taking a bribe is never “official conduct.”
Bribery requires a corrupt purpose. The purpose can be shown either through direct evidence of the reasons why the official accepted the bribe (usually via testimony) or indirectly, by showing an official act undertaken in connection with the bribe. Neither is available now, as a president’s motives for his conduct cannot be inquired into, nor can his official acts be evidence of a crime.
No, you are wrong. There is nothing in the opinion that bars testimony or other evidence of the reason for the payoff. The bribe-giver can testify, and in fact will rarely, if ever be a government official.
“What the prosecutor may not do, however, is admit testimony or private records of the President or his advisers probing the official act itself. Allowing that sort of evidence would invite the jury to inspect the President’s motivations for his official actions and to second-guess their propriety.”
No testimony along the lines “sure, I’ll pardon you if you wire me a million bucks by Tuesday.”
and: “In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives.”
So no “The president says the pardon was on the merits, but he told me at the time it was because he was being paid a million bucks.”
See my other comment. The bribe-giver testifies, which is typically how it works.
(Whether the president’s aides can be called to testify is another question. But even there not clear that it is within the scope of their job to discuss why the president got a big payoff in their bank account.)
You are also confusing the motive for the pardon with the motive for taking the money. Taking money from a private citizen is not an official act. Nothing in the SCOTUS decision prevents a court from reviewing why the money was accepted. And as I have now said repeatedly, the crime of bribery is complete upon accepting the bribe, even if the recipient does nothing.
Of all the possible “crimes” a president might commit, bribery is the one least affected by the SCOTUS opinion.
“testimony or private records of the President or his advisers”
Neither of which is going to be the bribe-giver. If John Doe testifies, “I agreed to give him $ 1 Million to pardon my nephew,” that’s admissible and sufficient to convict.
Your distinction between “the motive for the pardon” and “the motive for taking the money” makes no sense. It’s all the same transaction. And you’re assigning significance to a reference to the President’s “advisers” when Roberts says elsewhere that courts aren’t allowed to “inquire into the President’s motives” in “dividing official from unofficial conduct.” It doesn’t matter whether it’s some private citizen or the Attorney General that’s testifying about why the President accepted a million dollars; it still can’t come in to show that the President was taking a bribe rather than getting some coincidental gift.
“Your distinction between “the motive for the pardon” and “the motive for taking the money” makes no sense.”
You really do not understand the law. See my comment below.
bribes will regularly include government officials, especially when jobs are given for the perks.
Also, evidence of wrongdoing comes in a variety of forms, including by insiders that could involve government officials involved in helping provide the fruits of the bribe.
Hope Hicks’ testimony in the NY case, for example, now might be a problem since she was a Trump Administration official. She could also have been a witness in a bribery case.
Wonder what that impeachment clause is for?
Removing an unfit president from office so he can do no further damage to the country. Not for punishing him for his crimes.
In fact bribery is complete on agreeing to take the bribe.
Your comment is almost certainly borderline retarded. But given the asinine “Seal Team Six” hypothetical, relatively speaking, maybe less stupid. Still stupid of course, but higher in the hierarchy of idiotic hypos.
Pardoning is a “core power” of the President. So is commander in chief. He offers a pardon to someone to kill his political opponents for the corrupt motive of staying in office. But claims it’s for national security reasons and, per the Court, we can’t question his motives or even examine evidence of his discussions.
And this is all immune. Because we need a “vigorous” president, which apparently is now a separate clause of the Constitution. And separation of powers now apparently means that the President can do anything he wants to keep his powers separate.
For shame, sir! We want our presidents to boldly accept bribes and boldly murder their opposition!
Have a new word for you “impeachment.”
Impeachment is a political process, not a legal one. And not only have Republicans proven that they will not hold Trump politically accountable for his many crimes, but Senate Republicans expressly argued in 2021 that they didn’t need to convict him after his second impeachment because he could be prosecuted for those crimes instead.
Biden is doing something similar. He hired private citizen Jack Smith to bring false charges against Biden’s political opponent, with the purpose of Biden staying in office.
How do you know they’re false? I mean because of Trump’s judges it’s pretty clear there’ll never be a trial.
If they aren’t false, why do they need so many tricks to prosecute something so straightforward?
It’s like climate catastrophists — the simplest argument against them is how much and how often they like about the simplest things. Like coral reefs being at risk of extinction from a possible one foot sea level rise, even though they’ve survived for 200 million years, including the asteroid or comet which wiped out the dinosaurs, and the 300-400 foot seal level rise 10,000 years ago. People with the truth on their side don’t need such tricks and lies.
What “tricks” in the prosecution are you talking about?
I’ll pass over your ignorance about coral reefs as an attempt to distract from the main issue.
Please don’t! I’d like to hear your expert opinion on coral reefs, especially now that they are rebounding, as they have for 200 million years.
And nice deflection, dodging my main point that liars are their own worst enemies. Perhaps you’d like to retract your own lies.
Like being an expert on both coral reefs and the law. A rare combination.
And just to be clear here, you’re defending a president hiring a hitman to kill his political opponents because you think Biden is currently doing some just as bad?
I do not think anyone here mentioned a hitman. Although some Democrats have advocating taking away Trump’s Secret Service protection.
I read the indictments. Justice Thomas says Smith has no authority. A 6-3 scotus majority says Trump is immune, and Smith is misreading the statute. That is how I know the charges are bogus.
That is an accurate summary of zero of the justices’ statements.
Do you think the only thing holding back Presidents from doing that was fear of prosecution?
Who’s to say. But our prior presidents probably didn’t give it serious thought for reasons of ethics and character.
With Trump those factors are not in play.
And more to the point, theoretically the Court is writing the law for all manner of presidents, both moral and immoral. But after their immunity decision the criminal law has nothing to say to a president; we are reliant on purely political processes. And that a president doesn’t break the law to interfere with those political processes.
You do not understand either the law or the opinion.
Bribery is never an official act, for the reasons I stated in the thread.
Ordering someone killed may or may not be. Just because the president says it’s for national security does not make it so. Even if the intent is not examined, the objective circumstances can be. If the target is in a terrorist camp in Syria, then yeah, the President gets the benefit of the doubt. If he’s vacationing in Martha’s Vineyard, then not.
Bribery requires performance of an official act. How are you going to prove bribery without evidence of motive, or entering evidence regarding the official act, or promise to commit the official act or discussions with other executive officials about committing the official act?
As for killing somebody at Martha’s Vineyard. Any discussion the President has with some other member of the government about killing somebody for national security reasons is all tied up in his core constitutional powers and cannot be made criminal.
I see below you have some qualms about the majority decision. I speculate those qualms will have no effect at all on your love of the Court, and the former president who appointed three of its members.
“Bribery requires performance of an official act. ”
No, it doesn’t. That’s the mistake you keep making.
Briber: Senator, would you take this envelope stuffed with cash to vote on the specified bill the way I want you to.
Senator: Sure, hand it over. [Takes the envelope.]
Both parties are guilty of bribery, before the Senator does any official act, or even takes a step. The Senator could vote the opposite of the way he agreed to, or vote present, or just absent himself at home with a feigned head-cold. He and the briber are still guilty.
As I said above, bribery is the worst example you can come up with because of the way the law of bribery is structured.
He and the briber are still guilty.
Only if you prove his motives, and you cannot inquire into them, per the opinion.
Wrong, again. I will say it one more time. Accepting money from the public is not an official act. Bribery is complete upon accepting money with the intent to act corruptly. No official act is needed for the crime to be complete. Nothing in the opinion stops a court from inquiring into why the bribe was given or received.
“In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives.”
Can’t introduce the pardon itself, and can’t introduce evidence of the President saying “I’ll pardon you if you give me money.” Sure, you can introduce the fact of the gift. I didn’t say otherwise. If that were enough to prove bribery, every single member of Congress would go to jail.
The “intent to act corruptly” means the intent to commit an official act. That’s the holding of McDonnell. The official act doesn’t need to be completed, but the intent must exist.
How can you show the intent under the framework of this decision? How do you show that it wasn’t just a gift or gratuity?
The “intent to act corruptly” means the intent to commit an official act. That’s the holding of McDonnell.
Wrong. The corruptly is accepting the bribe as a quid pro quo for an official act, not the official act itself. The bribery is complete when the official accepts funds in exchange for performance of an official act. He (or she) does not have to perform anything. The bribee (if that’s a word) can renege on the promise, or for that matter, can never intend to keep the promise. It’s still bribery.
To use the president as an example, if he accepts money to issue a pardon, that’s bribery, even if he never pardons anyone. Or even never intends to follow through. It’s accepting money as a quid pro quo for using the powers of his office that is the crime.
Here is another example. Senator Jones takes a bribe of $ 1 Million to vote NO on a pending bill. But he ALREADY took a bribe of $ 10 Million to vote Yes from someone else, and has no intention of voting NO. But, being the scoundrel that he is, Senator Jones keeps all $ 11 Million.
How many acts of bribery has Senator Jones committed? Two, one from each of the bribers.
How many official acts did Senator Jones have to commit to be guilty? Zero.
What motive would a criminal court have to examine? Senator Jones’ motive in taking each of the two bribes. Neither of which is an official act.
What relevance does it have to the criminal trial how Senator Jones voted (or if he voted at all, or stayed home)? None.
Because otherwise there’s no way to prove that he took the money for the act.
Only if you prove his motives
You don’t have to prove any motive. You only have to prove that the transaction occurred. Why he wanted the Senator to vote any particular way is irrelevant.
Of course you do. Bribery requires a corrupt motive. “You are convicted of giving money to a public official” isn’t enough, for obvious reasons.
Of course you do. Bribery requires a corrupt motive. “You are convicted of giving money to a public official” isn’t enough, for obvious reasons.
You do know what the word “transaction” means, don’t you? It involves a two-way exchange of value. When you buy something at a store, your expectation of receiving whatever good(s) you paid for is a part of that transaction. Your motive for buying that/those good(s) is not.
You need some evidence of the motive for accepting the money, namely the intent to commit an official act. Whether the official commits the act or reneges on the deal, the receipt of money is not enough for bribery. Evidence of the motive for accepting is now inadmissible.No bribery conviction.
You keep assuming that the bribe giver will be testifying. What if not, and the only evidence would be the fact of a gift and the motives and actions of the bribe taker? And I prefer to believe Sotomayor and the justices who joined her, have a better handle on it than you, bored interet lawyer:
“The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.”
And I prefer to believe Sotomayor and the justices who joined her, have a better handle on it than you, bored interet lawyer
I prefer to believe that the majority of the justices have a better handle on it than you, clueless commenter.
Point to me in the majority opinion where they state presidents can be prosecuted for assassinating their political opponents?
As for bribery, Roberts does take up the question, only to demonstrate that making a prosecution would be difficult under the rules he has just made up and that that doesn’t matter because the most important thing is that presidential decision-making is never second guessed:
“3 JUSTICE BARRETT disagrees, arguing that in a bribery prosecution, for instance, excluding “any mention” of the official act associated with the bribe “would hamstring the prosecution.” …. But of course the prosecutor may point to the public record to show the fact that the President performed the official act. And the prosecutor may admit evidence of what the President allegedly demanded, received, accepted, or agreed to receive or accept in return for being influenced in the performance of the act. See 18 U. S. C. §201(b)(2). What the prosecutor may not do, however, is admit testimony or private records of the President or his advisers probing the official act itself. Allowing that sort of evidence would invite the jury to inspect the President’s motivations for his official actions and to second-guess their propriety. As we have explained, such inspection would be “highly intrusive” and would “ ‘seriously cripple’ ” the President’s exercise of his official duties. Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 745, 756 (quoting Spalding v. Vilas, 161 U. S. 483, 498 (1896)); see supra, at 18. And such second-guessing would “threaten the independence or effectiveness of the Executive.” Trump v. Vance, 591 U. S. 786, 805 (2020).”
Point to me in the majority opinion where they state presidents can be prosecuted for assassinating their political opponents?
First, point to me in the majority opinion where they state presidents CAN’T be be prosecuted for assassinating their political opponents.
The three thousand times it says presidents can’t be prosecuted for exercising their core functions. The CoC power is a core function, and the majority opinion tells us we don’t get to question the president’s motives. “I thought my opponent was a danger to national security”: well then, core function, immunity for you.
You think maybe such a president might be impeached?
Some people, like the President of the Heritage Society, really love the immunity decision because “Vigor” is a key Constitutional principle, even if it not actually mentioned. Apparently the way is now clear for a Second Revolution, which may be bloodless this time if complainers get out of the way
https://x.com/i/status/1808507354310209711
Botaglove — Complainers need not get out of the way on their own initiative. Under the new rules they can just be disappeared.
The great arc of American progress does not favor unearned privilege; this authoritarian right-wing decision seems unlikely to alter that trajectory, or to survive over the medium to long term. Even the once-powerful authoritarian conservatives of bigoted, uneducated, backwaters such as Lexington, Mississippi, will be brought to heel by their betters.
If presidential immunity is grounded in Separation of Powers, how does that preclude state court prosecutions? Am I missing something obvious?
I should add to my comments above that I do not agree with the “evidentiary” part of the immunity opinion — i.e., that even if being charged for non-immune conduct, the prosecution may not introduce evidence of immune conduct for a collateral purpose. That runs against decades of case law and Rule 404(b). IMO, that’s the bad part of the decision.
I assume it’s modeled after Speech-and-Debate Clause immunity. As interpreted, one can’t use legislative acts as evidence against a congressperson any more than one can prosecute him/her for those acts directly.
But of course S&D clause immunity is actually in the constitution, unlike the fake presidential immunity.
Got a new concept for you to learn. Separation of powers.
The power to make the laws belongs with Congress. The power to enforce laws rests with the current president. Therefore, no separation of powers issues with the current president prosecuting a former one pursuant to laws passed by Congress.
Tell that to Scotus.
Possibly the worst part of the immunity decision — and there are many bad parts — is that there’s not even a foreseeable path to reverse it down the road. Constitutional amendment is a non-starter for obvious partisan reasons. (Maybe if it was only made prospective? Which wouldn’t do anything about Trump, but maybe would overcome partisan bias? But probably not, because it would be seen as a slap at Trump even if it didn’t apply to him.)
The only other way is to try to prosecute a former president in the future, have the trial/appellate courts dismiss it on the grounds of immunity, and hope SCOTUS grants cert. But why would SCOTUS do so, unless the makeup of the court dramatically changed? And that’s many years down the road.
If you dislike the opinion the only means of reversing it is electing a president who will appoint Justices who will reverse it, and hope that a few Justices die or resign in the meantime.
But my guess is that few on the conservative side who have any qualms about the opinion will draw that conclusion. Instead they’ll just hope that perhaps a few persuasive Federalist Society seminars may nudge existing judges in changing their mined.
You miss my point, though. That’s necessary, but not sufficient. SCOTUS doesn’t issue advisory opinions, so even if all 9 justices want to reverse it, they still need a vehicle to do so, which means someone needs to prosecute a former president for the opportunity to arise.
Good point, though I imagine there may be reasonable opportunities in other decisions on immunity or presidential powers to utter some pretty harsh dicta.
No need to rely on hope now that he has the option to activate Seal Team Six.
What will Mr Biden do in the proximate future to take advantage of his new superpower?
Biden has said he won’t pardon his son out of principle. So I’d put my money on Biden not taking advantage of a ruling he disagrees with out of principle.
OTOH, wouldn’t it be ironic if Biden used the new, expanded executive authority to pack the court or do something else to reign in the conservatives on the court?
Shawn,
There is no new, expanded executive authority. There is expanded non-accountability.
In the example that you cite, the action itself can be challenged in Court, but Joe could not be criminally charged. Moreover, as naming a justice to a full Court is not within his authority, he would need an act of Congress to expand the size of the Court to create vacacies for him to fill.
Pres. Trump will probably pardon Hunter Biden.
Nieporent, not enough vigor and boldness in your legal thinking today. Here is a way to reverse this decision.
With a non-MAGA, institutionalist President in office, maybe even Joe Biden, instruct the Justice Department to prosecute in response to an indictment on this basis:
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
The “authority of the United States,” is not the authority of the Supreme Court, or even the authority of the government as a whole. It is the authority of the jointly sovereign People.
A grand jury is a constitutionally designated entity which is no part of government. Separation of powers does not apply to a grand jury. It is not under the power of any branch of government. The grand jury’s proper place in American constitutionalism is to give or withhold the People’s consent to empower courts to prosecute particular cases. That is explicitly what the grand jury is for. That is what it has been used for thousands of times.
If a grand jury says prosecute 5 justices of the Supreme Court for their part in an action, “against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof,” then that grand jury speaks with an authority higher than that of the Supreme Court itself. Neither the Court, nor anyone else in government has power to set that indictment aside. It must be prosecuted. Whatever decision a lower court arrives at can be appealed to the Supreme Court, of course, but as defendants, the 5 justices being prosecuted cannot participate to decide their own case.
If the Justices are tried and convicted, then they are out of office. They can be replaced with others, presumably others chastened by vigorous and bold action taken not by the President, but by the jointly sovereign American People themselves.
That ought to end the crisis, and do it on an institutionally sound basis, firmly grounded in both American constitutional theory, and in historical practice extending right back to the founding.
Wow, Lathrop. You have outdone yourself with that post.
And I thought that Rev guy was insane. Lathrop is now officially the new site lunatic. And there’s a lot of competition for that today in this comments section.
“A grand jury is a constitutionally designated entity which is no part of government.”
A guidebook to New York grand juries welcomes jurors this way:
“Thank you for your upcoming service as grand jurors. As grand jurors, you now are a part of our court system.”
It is “an arm of the court.”
https://www.nyjuror.gov/pdfs/hb_Grand.pdf
Joe, thanks for your comment. I know nothing about state grand juries. I do not profess expert legal knowledge regarding federal grand juries. I do know something about their legal status as a matter of American history, and that provided the point of view underlying my comment above.
Nieporent’s poorly informed denials below surprise me. It’s not that I expect him to know the history. He does not even seem to have read the guide for federal grand jurors. On balance I think it supports my view better than his. In particular, this from Nieporent is explicitly contradicted in the federal guide:
Grand juries act under the authority of the judicial system. They are not free-ranging bodies. There is no “grand jury” except as convened by a court. Otherwise it’s a bunch of loons cosplaying.
Here are relevant quotations from the federal grand jury guide:
Over the years, the hallmarks of our modern grand jury developed in England. For example, grand jury proceedings became secret, and the grand jury became independent of the
Crown. As a result, a grand jury is able to vote an indictment or refuse to do so, as it deems proper, without regard to the recommendations of judge, prosecutor, or any other person. This independence from the will of the government was achieved only after a long hard fight.
When the English colonists came to America, they brought with them many of the institutions of the English legal system, including the grand jury. Thus, the English tradition of the grand jury was well established in the American colonies long before the American Revolution. Indeed, the colonists used it as a platform from which to assert their independence from the pressures of colonial governors. In 1735, for example, the Colonial Governor of New York demanded that a grand jury indict for libel John Zenger, editor of a newspaper called The Weekly Journal, because he had held up to scorn certain acts of the Royal Governor. The grand jury flatly refused.
The grand jury is not completely free to compel a trial of anyone it chooses. The government attorney must sign the indictment before a party may be prosecuted. Thus, the government and the grand jury act as checks on each other. This assures that neither may arbitrarily wield the awesome power to indict a person of a crime.
As stated above, the federal grand jury’s function is to determine whether the person being investigated by the government shall be tried for a serious federal crime alleged to have been committed within the district where it sits. Matters may be brought to its attention in three ways: (1) by the government attorney; (2) by the court that impaneled it; and (3) from the personal knowledge of a member of the grand jury or from matters properly brought to a member’s personal attention.
I think it is safe to say that if the grand jury and the government act as checks on each other, then the grand jury is no part of government. Note also that in my hypothetical above, I posited government cooperation in the prosecution proposed for Supreme Court justices indicted under the federal insurrection act.
As for the question of how they get indicted, if the government does not do it, note above: “(3) from the personal knowledge of a member of the grand jury or from matters properly brought to a member’s personal attention.”
Once again, the grand jury is no part of government, and thus unaffected by separation of powers concerns. It is instead—and has been historically—a tribune of the jointly sovereign People, with capacity to hold the government to account. To say that is not to assert that many will find that a familiar concept, or necessarily be comfortable with it. But the grand jury acting in a role outside government is an ancient part of American constitutionalism, and its continuing vitality is at least fairly well recognized in the federal guide for grand jurors.
The nation finds itself in an unfamiliar pickle. It seems to me that if no one can come up with anything better, then resort to a long-honored but recently-disused method to deliver a remedy is at least worth a try. It might not work, or it might.
That’s the way things tend to go when sovereignty gets contested. At the margins, you get tests of power with uncertain outcomes. I am in favor of trying it, or something similar, even though I would not expect perfect domestic tranquility during the immediate aftermath. On balance, I think any conflict which resulted soon would be less troublesome than the result of a closely contested election, with both sides trying to marshal between Election Day and January 20 enough power to seize control of government.
Every word of this is utterly wrong. Again, you’re being a SovCit. Grand juries act under the authority of the judicial system. They are not free-ranging bodies. There is no “grand jury” except as convened by a court. Otherwise it’s a bunch of loons cosplaying.
Nieporent — You appear not even to know the meaning of your SovCit epithet, let alone the history, context, and applicability of anything else you so confidently blather about. To get better informed read my reply to JoeFromthe Bronx above.
You don’t understand what you’re reading. “The government” in the context of that is the executive branch.
Ask yourself one simple question: how does a grand jury come into existence? How does a person get to be a grand juror? (Okay, maybe that’s two simple questions. But they’re just different ways of asking the same thing.)
Thanks to this decision, I’ve changed my mind about Biden. He should stay in the race, lose, and then in December use the powers the Court has given him to arrest, imprison and maybe assassinate Trump and a number of other Republicans.
Channeling Dr. Ed?
Tell me where I’m wrong. Be specific.
All in all, it is somewhat amusing to read these comments and the complete meltdown of the lawfare supporting clowns as they come to realize their political prosecutions may be at end. Some seriously need a time out.
This opinion makes it harder for a president to lawfare his predecessor, but easier to lawfare everybody else.