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Mifepristone in the Supreme Court - Comments on Oral Argument (Updated)
Live commentary on the Supreme Court oral argument in FDA v. Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine
What follows is some live commentary on the Supreme Court's oral argument today in FDA v. AHM, the mifepristone case.
Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar began today's oral argument in FDA v. AHM with standing, emphasizing the plaintiffs' argument for Article III standing is based upon an attenuated chain of causation that fails to satisfy the requirements of Article III standing. This was a good start. In turning to the consequences of allowing this suit to go forward, I think it was an error to focus exclusively on the consequences for reproductive choice and women seeking to terminate pregnancies. Allowing standing in this case poses the risk of opening the door to suits against all manner of FDA decisions, such as decisions to approve vaccines (among other things). Courts have generally rejected standing in such suits. Is that really something the Court wants to change?
Asking the first question (as has become traditional), Justice Thomas wants to know, if not these plaintiffs, who could sue to challenge the FDA's approval (a question that Justice Alito picks up later). This is a good question, but there is no constitutional requirement that Article III standing must exist for someone. Put another way, there can be cases in which no one has Article III standing to challenge the federal government's failure to regulate someone else, particularly where (as here) Congress has not created a cause of action or purported to authorize such suits. Under Lujan, the standing inquiry can be eased when Congress has created a procedural right or authorized suit, but it has never done so here. As Justice Thomas notes in response, the plaintiffs may have a stronger argument relying upon some of the Court's associational standing cases (such as Havens Realty, for instance), but I doubt the Court really wants to rely upon that outlier decision. (Indeed, some of us thought the Court was poised to cut back on Havens Realty in Acheson Hotel.)
Pressed on this point by Justice Alito, SG Prelogar effectively acknowledges that there may not be any specific individual who can sue the FDA for revising ts regulation of mifepristone. The theory the plaintiffs have pressed, she notes, does not come within miles of the requirements of Article III standing as the Court has articulated them in prior cases. Whether there is some other theory out there that might work is not a question the government has to answer.
Asked to distinguish Havens Realty by Justice Barrett, SG Prelogar notes that in Havens Realty there was direct harm to the organization, due to its contractual obligations and the like. In other words, Havens Realty was a far narrower decision than some lower courts have assumed (which is something we saw in the emoluments clause litigation). Prelogar is correct on this point. Havens Realty is not the open door for associations that some circuit courts have turned it into.
While most of the early questioning of SG Prelogar focuses on standing, Justice Alito turns to the merits. Prelogar effectively responds to AHM's claim that FDA failed to adequately consider the potential combination of regulatory changes it made. Then Justice Alito raises the Comstock Act: Should the FDA have considered the statute? No, Prelogar answers, because the Comstock Act is not in the FDA's lane. This is precisely correct. The FDA does not enforce Comstock (and Comstock was clearly unenforceable prior to the Dobbs decision). Put another way, the Department of Justice could enforce the Comstock Act in a future administration, but the FDA was not obligated to focus upon it. Moreover, the FDA relied upon an Office of Legal Counsel memorandum on the enforceability of the Comstock Act.
Justice Kagan asks SG Prelogar whether it is still true that this case marks the first time in which a federal court has second-guessed the FDA's decision to approve a product. It is. No doubt this is largely due to standing. [Note, however, some medical groups did successfully sue the FDA for failing to regulate vaping products more aggressively, which led to some of the FDA's current problems in that area.] The question here is not whether the FDA ever makes mistakes--it certainly does!--but whether these plaintiffs have standing to bring this case.
Justices Barrett, Kagan, and Kavanaugh all raise the issue of whether a doctor's conscience objection is sufficient for standing in a case like this. SG Prelogar maintains that federal law protects the legitimate conscience objections of doctors who object to performing abortions or providing abortion-inducing medications. Moreover, the FDA's loosening of the regulation of mifepristone does not implicate such conscience claims (nor does the remedy that the plaintiffs seek--regulating mifepristone more stringently--does not align with the injury claimed).
Justice Jackson asks an interesting question about whether the Court's resolution of the pending Corner Post could affect this sort of litigation. The Fifth Circuit had found that AHM's claims against the initial 2000 approval of mifepristone was too late. Might an aggressive ruling in Corner Post make such claims viable in the future? Prelogar concedes it might, but notes that the federal government might have other arguments against allowing such stale claims to proceed.
Jessica Ellsworth, Danco's lawyer is now up, and the questioning here focuses a bit more on the merits than standing. Right off the bat, she is challenged on the Comstock Act by Justice Thomas. There are interesting questions here about whether Danco is potentially liable for violating the Comstock Act by distributing mifepristone, but that is not an issue in this case.
Justice Jackson asks Ellsworth about the problems of judges reviewing expert agencies. While it's fair to note that the district court bollixed some of the technical issues below, this is not a helpful line of questioning. There is no reason the FDA should be exempt from traditional arbitrary and capricious review. and such review (done properly) does not require courts to second-guess the scientific judgments of expert agencies. Rather, it calls upon courts to make sure that agencies have engaged in reasoned decision-making.
Justice Thomas begins the questioning of AHM's attorney, Erin Hawley, about standing, focusing on whether AHM's claimed associational harm is anything more than having to spend money to challenge a government decision it does not like. Hawley's answer adopts the broad conception of Havens Realty embraced by many lower courts, and does not appear to satisfy Justice Thomas. Hawley's argument, Thomas suggests, would make standing "easy to manufacture."
Asked about conscience objections, Hawley contests whether existing conscience protections are sufficient for objecting doctors, but is not able to identify anything in any of the declarations demonstrating that doctors have been unable to raise conscience objections where called for. She does note, however, that the federal government may not have been entirely consistent in how it has applied such protections under statutes such as EMTALA. Justice Gorsuch jumps in to underline the point that insofar as conscience harms are alleged, the appropriate remedy would be to provide direct conscience protections, not to restrict the sale or marketing of a pharmaceutical nationwide. (Cue Gorsuch's oft-repeated concerns about the "rash of universal injunctions" -- concerns that Hawley does not seem to want to address directly.) Hawley's argument here is, in effect, that the emergency nature of ER work makes raising conscience objections impracticable, and therefore the only relief that can remedy the harm is to limit the use of mifepristone nationwide.
Justice Kagan returns to standing, honing in on the probabilistic nature of AHM's standing claims (an issue I discussed here). Hawley attempts to parry by noting that FDA has acknowledged the possibility of adverse events or needs for doctors in emergency rooms to help ensure patient safety, but as Kagan notes, this does not solve the problem. While AHM has identified specific plaintiffs, none of their declarations show the sort of imminent injury traceable to the FDA's decision to loosen the regulation of mifepristone. Note that even if such claims could be shown, it would be difficult to show that such harms are traceable to the FDA's modification of the regulation of mifepristone, as opposed to mifepristone being available. Other justices pick up on this line of questioning, focusing on what is (and is not) in the declarations.
Justice Alito helps Hawley out by pointing out that the Court has, at times, been a bit lax in enforcing its standing (as in the census case). Hawley responds by leaning heavily into some of the probabilistic claims. She overstates what the record shows (e.g. by suggesting the findings of particular small-gauge studies show what the nationwide effects of changing the regulation of mifepristone will be). I wonder whether any of the justices caught this (or will call her on it).
Justice Kagan presses Hawley on whether any of the harms alleged can be traced to the 2016 and 2021 revisions. Hawley's response is that the revisions increased the likelihood of harm. As I discussed in this morning's post, this is precisely the sort of claim that Clapper and Summers rejected, as it is not clear how the alleged actual or imminent harms claimed by AHM can be traced to the increased quantum of risk allegedly caused by the FDA's loosening of the rules governing mifepristone.
The SG's rebuttal is quite strong and (in my view) strikes a better balance on the various arguments and issues (given the audience that is this Court) than did the tail end of her intro. It really hits standing hard, and emphasizes the systemic effects on FDA regulation more than the reproductive rights angle. This is the sign of a good advocate: Making the arguments that will appeal to the justices, not those that appeal to the administration's political constituencies.
Overall, it seems the justices are quite skeptical of standing here (as they should be). While some might be concerned that the Court is not consistent in its approach to standing (as Justice Alito was in California v. Texas) it seems like there are likely to be five votes to dismiss this case on standing grounds--as it should.
Note that if this case is dismissed on standing, a future presidential administration would still be able to reconsider the existing regulation of mifepristone or enforce the Comstock Act. Moreover, dismissing this case on standing grounds would do little to buttress the (weak) arguments some are making that federal approval of mifepristone preempts state laws restricting or prohibiting mifepristone's use within their borders. It is also possible that standing to pursue this sort of lawsuit could be facilitated by the enactment of a citizen suit provision authorizing suits against the FDA for improperly approving or revising the regulation of prescription drugs.
Put another way, if this case is resolved on standing grounds, it will be an important standing decision, but it will resolve very little about the broader issue of abortion and the use or availability of mifepristone.
* * *
For those interested, here are my prior blog posts about this case and the issues it raises:
- "The Next Abortion Battlegrounds," June 22, 2022;
- "Assessing the Legal Claims in Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. FDA," March 8, 2023;
- "AHM v. FDA: A Contrary View and a Rejoinder," March 28, 2023;
- "Blue-State AGs Have A Mifepristone Lawsuit of Their Own," March 29, 2023;
- "Two (Wrong) Mifepristone Court Rulings in One Day," April 8, 2023;
- "The Good and Bad of the Fifth Circuit's Abortion Pill Ruling," April 13, 2023.
- "BREAKING: Supreme Court to Consider Fifth Circuit's Abortion Pill Decision," Dec. 13, 2023.
- Supreme Court Denies Red State Effort to Intervene in Mifepristone Case, Feb. 20, 2024.
- Can Emergency Room Doctors Sue the FDA for Failing to Regulate Mifepristone More Aggressively?, Mar. 26, 2025.
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The “doctors” are trying to make the argument that they should be allowed to let a woman die because they don’t like the woman took the medication. And they claim they have a “conscience”. The court should rip them a new one.
Every abortion kills at least one fetus. Very few non-abortions kill anyone.
By refusing to acknowledge that, you show you are incapable of judging an entire matter. Whether you approve of abortions or want to ban them, your biased and incomplete argument degenerates into mere propaganda.
Next time, try shedding some actual light on the subject.
By the time it is a medical emergency the fetus is already non viable. These “doctors” want the “right” to let the woman die also. That is absolutely disgusting.
That's not an answer. You still ignore the "other side".
What other side? There is no right to seize a woman's body against her will for nine months. The law wouldn't even allow me to store my stuff in your garage for nine months without your consent.
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The superstitious, bigoted, half-educated, obsolete, authoritiarian, right-wing side that the alphabet asshole favors.
Oh for Pete's sake! Your ignorance is just as bad. You completely ignore the idea that abortion kills a life, as if the process of birth changes that clump of cells into a human being in that instant in time.
Arguments which pretend there are no different opinions are just plain stupid.
A miscarriage kills a life, too, which makes the god you worship a murdering asshole as well as an illusory, paltry thing.
Which particular flavor of childish superstition and silly nonsense do you prefer?
Those of us who do not worship fetuses do not accept the claim that abortion is murder, nor should we.
But for sake of argument, suppose I did. That still leaves the question of why one person should be able to seize another person's body for nine months. I wouldn't be allowed to seize your spare bedroom for nine months so what gives me a claim to your body?
I do think that pro-choice arguments that don't grapple with the fact that pro-life people view abortions as murder are bound to fall on deaf ears because it's such a central part of the opposition to abortion. Arguments like "they just want to control women's bodies", while plausibly true in some cases, really don't do a good job of understanding the other side's motivations and position.
But you're absolutely right that even if you accept the premise that a fetus is a person that will die as the result of the abortion, that doesn't explain why a woman should be forced to let that person take possession of her uterus for nine months. If someone figured out that you were a perfect kidney donor for them and they were going to die without a transplant, they couldn't force you to give up your kidney so they could live, nor could they force you to hook yourself up to some sort of dialysis machine that would help you filter their blood for nine months while they waited for another donor. So it's very unclear why pro-life advocates think you should be stuck using your body to support the fetus even if you accept that not doing so will kill it.
The woman and the sperm donor are the only 2 people responsible. There's no forced possession. Sex has 1 biological function, procreation. That it's fun is a pleasant bonus.
Setting aside other objections, this argument ignores rape and incest.
But, on one other objection, what does "biological function" have to do with the morality or legality of anything?
Moreover, you're simply wrong that it has only one biological function. Evolution is very creative in using parts for multiple purposes. It's like saying the glutes are only for procreation (thrusting, as it were). Sex has benefits to the individual far beyond procreation, in terms of both mental and physical health.
In short, you don't seem to have really thought this through at all.
“that doesn’t explain why a woman should be forced to let that person take possession of her uterus for nine months.”
A counter to that is that by engaging in sexual activity that could lead to pregnancy, she gave that person possession of her uterus for nine months, it wasn’t taken against her will.
Consider a lease as an analogy. A landlord signs a 1 year lease with a tenant. 2 months in the landlord wants to cancel the lease even though the tenant has abided by all the terms of the lease.
Note: I think abortion is morally dubious in most cases, but I still think it ought to be legal.
It's not a lease. It's the landlord failing to take sufficient precautions to keep out an unwelcome guest.
By your argument, if the landlord forgets to lock the place up, anyone can toss their stuff inside and the landlord has to let them stay.
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Does your "counter" survive rape?
MatthewSlyfield : “A counter to that is that by engaging in sexual activity that could lead to pregnancy, she gave that person possession of her uterus for nine months…”
That’s the quiet part said out loud. So forget all the theocratic logic. What gives an embyro personhood isn’t some teleological biological determinism. You could see how empty that bullshit was when IVF was at risk.
Absent a women who had “gotten herself into it” by harlotry and “selfishly” wanted to escape the consequences of her behavior, the vaunted personhood of a fertilized egg vanished like insubstantial mist.
But it’s always been about the woman and making damn sure she doesn’t have an easy way out. Remember, the subject of IVF arose back when the Alabama anti-abortion bill was debated. Its sponsor, Senator Clyde Chambliss, responded thus: “The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant.”
Thus fetal personhood. The core of the anti-abortion movement has always been censure and disgust over the effrontery of woman. Take away that and the movement is an empty shell. And this explains why so many anti-abortion types prove more flexible when it’s their daughter, sister, mother or aunt. Amazingly enough, those women aren’t the selfish sluts of religious fantasy. Amazingly enough, they have strong personal reasons for wanting to control their lives.
"worship fetuses"
"seize another person's body"
Why would anyone bother to take this crap seriously?
I wouldn’t be allowed to seize your spare bedroom for nine months so what gives me a claim to your body?
That fetus didn't decide to inhabit mom. Mom and dad invited it. They opened the doors and shoved it in there. It's only 2 people's fault (excepting non-consensual sex) that a pregnancy happened. Planned or not. No seizing of property. You signed the lease.
No, I didn't sign a lease. I failed to take sufficient precautions to keep an unwanted guest out.
Look, take what position you want on abortion, but I think these attempts to justify abortion by analogy are fatally flawed. Pregnancy is not "seizing another person's body." It is a sui generis biological procress. A fetus is not an invader, a parasite, a trespasser, or whatever other similar metaphor you try to employ.
A fetus has the practical effect of being an invader, a parasite, a trespasser, and that's even granting that it happened through no fault of the fetus. The point is that someone else has lost control of her body for nine months to a process that is dangerous, painful, and can be life threatening, because the law has determined the rights of the fetus to supersede hers. So whatever you choose to call the fetus, it has, as a practical matter, seized control of her body.
Using your argument, an unborn baby is an invitee or licensee. So is owed a duty of care.
No, failing to take sufficient precautions against it is not making it an invitee or licensee. Did the fact that you forgot to lock your door give me the right to move my stuff in?
Your lack of actual material to prove your point seems baseless and whimsical. In addition, "anyone can see" YOU are ignoring a huge position "refusing to acknowledge that" women have rights. "Your ignorance" of defeated and defunct arguments over not-yet-humans astounds the entire planet. "You completely ignore" that no entity has a claim to life at the expense of an unwilling host. "Abortion kills a life" of a parasite, yes.
Your argumentative statements leave little argument and mostly name calling.
That'd be news to all the Democratic officials who banned evictions during the pandemic.
Which garage owners were required to store someone else's stuff in their garage during the pandemic?
They were required to store someone else, and all their stuff, in their actual homes and apartments, not just garages, during the pandemic.
In response to a unique situation, not a generally recurring thing. Absent unique circumstances, there is no general right to force yourself or your property on someone else or their property.
" There is no right to seize a woman’s body against her will for nine months."
No more than there is a right to enslave the father with child support for eighteen YEARS....
WTF??
Being required to support your children is now slavery?
Do you have a brain?
" The law wouldn’t even allow me to store my stuff in your garage for nine months without your consent."
There's a non-frivolous argument that absent rape, the woman did consent.
To the sex, yes, but not to the pregnancy.
The baby wouldn't have been murdered if the woman didn't know that she could get the life saving care --- and one could say "Will of Allah" as to her dying as a consequence.
In refusing to accept the compromise of helping her to go to a pro-murder state to murder her baby, you are creating the situation where women WILL be left to bleed to death in states where abortion is illegal. Or charged with murder, which is what it IS.
I don't believe that there is any state whose abortion laws allow the women who get abortions to be charged with murder.
Give Texas time.
YET.....
That is where this is going to wind up --- if it isn't possible to prevent the woman from getting the abortant, the only solution is the criminal prosecution of her for taking it.
The baby wouldn’t have been murdered if the woman didn’t know that she could get the life saving care [...]
Citation needed. Women have been getting abortions one way or another for basically all of human history. It was a lot riskier before the 20th century, sure, but it still happened.
And lets be honest about the risks... taking a pregnancy to term is riskier then getting a pre-10 week medication abortion. So if access to emergency care is a real concern, then taking the medication abortion is the safer option.
As to your second paragraph, that's a different topic. This case is about an attempt to restrict the drug nationwide, including in states that are fine with it. Whether a given state can regulate it further within their own borders is a different issue that will almost certainly not be addressed in the eventual ruling.
Look, the suit is frivolous, but that is not what it is about. It is about whether mifepristone should be available.
And under what conditions...
I think a woman ought to be required to take it in front of the prescriber so there is no question as to who took it and where.
What other medication requires such a burden?
Hell, even intentionally lethal drugs used in assisted suicide don't face that requirement.
And people wonder why I take the "let the slut bleed to death on the floor" approach.
If you aren't hysterical, take a look at the argument that prison RNs raise in refusing to insert the IV in condemned prisoner's arms. It's the same thing, and their job is to insert IVs.
Abortion IS ILLEGAL in these states, and it is the same participation in a murder that they are raising objections to. It's participation in a murder they object to, not anything to do with not liking the woman.
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Nobody wonders. You're a Volokh Conspiracy fan, which explains everything.
Carry on, bigoted, doomed, deplorable clingers.
And people wonder why I take the “let the slut bleed to death on the floor” approach.
I doubt there is a single person that has had a conversation with your for more then five minutes who would wonder that.
To your point, there’s a bit of a difference between someone exercising a conscience exemption leading to a person dying, and a person exercising a conscience exemption leading to a person living.
That said?
Abortion IS ILLEGAL in these states, and it is the same participation in a murder that they are raising objections to. It’s participation in a murder they object to, not anything to do with not liking the woman.
To the degree that it’s fair to call a first-trimester abortion “murder”, the “murder” has already happened. All the doctor is being asked to do is to keep the murderer alive.
Which, funny thing, is actually pretty routine. Murderers regularly get treatment in hospitals. Refusing them treatment on the basis that they’re murderers would be seen as a violation of professional ethics.
So to the degree that performing emergency treatment to save the life of a murderer is “participation in a murder”, that’s something that every doctor in the US has already accepted.
"Not liking the woman" would involve refusing to provide OB/GYN care to an unmarried pregnant woman, and the distinction is that SHE committed the sin of "fornication", you are not complicit in that.
But the woman would never have taken the abortion pill if she knew she had a 7% 9% chance of bleeding to death and would not get free medical care to prevent that. Remember Paraquat in the 1970s and what that did to the pot market?
Even if the baby is already murdered, she is requiring the MD to participate in the murder. It renders the state's anti-murder laws and the Dobbs decision irrelevant -- and in a REPUBLIC of semi-sovereign states, the states have the right to ban what they wish.
Your 7% to 9% statistic is complete nonsense. The death rate is less than 1 per 100,000 abortions.
This should send you; Did you know women with a hysterectomy auto-abort "children." By your logic all women with this procedure should bleed out on the floor. Great stance you're taking.
I disagree with both their standing argument and their science/merits argument. But they aren’t arguing what you are saying they are. They are arguing the FDA shouldn’t be letting the women take dangerous substances, and this will keep women from being in a position where they might die or have to be treated to avoid it.
Whether they have standing, whether mifepristone is as (or anywhere near as) dangerous as they are claiming, they just aren’t arguing that they should be allowed to “let women die.”
I don’t know if anyone has standing to challenge the FDA on this issue (except a new FDA).
But I don’t see how it would make sense for the FDA to legalize an abortifacient which can’t legally be sent by the post office or private express companies. Nor should this ban be wished away as the administration wants to do.
The ban was revived when Roe v. Wade was cast on the ash heap of history.
Maybe, but it actually has nothing to do with the current case. The doctors aren't claiming they can enforce the Comstock Act, and at as Professor Adler points out at the time the FDA issued these approvals the act was obviously unconstitutional so it's not like they did their job wrong at the time.
The situation has changed. There is no longer a judicially-pronounced federal right to abortion. The ban on abortifacients in the mail (USPS or private carriers) is back in force, which calls into question the FDA decision that it can be marketed.
"The doctors aren't claiming they can enforce the Comstock Act"
To repeat: "I don’t know if anyone has standing to challenge the FDA on this issue (except a new FDA)."
It's kind of sad that you don't even consider Congress, as if the entire body is simply incapable of legislating.
What could Congress do? Prohibit the mailing of abortifacients? It already did that.
I don't mean to alarm you, but yes, if a new law banning the sale of mifepristone (specifically or categorically) got through both houses of congress and was either signed by the president or had the president's veto overriden, then it would almost certainly be enforced.
Your problem is that neither the legislative, executive, or judicial branches think (as institutions) that Comstock is good law, and there have been no serious attempts to bolster it's standing as good law.
I’m largely in favor of automatic sunset clauses in laws, but that’s not the system we have, is it? Laws generally stay on the books until amended – and if they’re constitutional they should be enforced. This particular law went into deep freeze during the Roe era, but that era is over so the law should have thawed out by now.
“good law”
Are you using that phrase in the legal or colloquial sense?
Cute dodge.
My point stands. Congress is not without redress here. You're just whining because they're fine with Comstock being dead.
If this nonsense case actually goes through, the FDA has zero authority to do anything congress gave it powers to do.
Because the FDA approves a drug based on efficacy and it applies to the whole country. While it may be illegal in some states it isn't in all. One state can't dictate that for the rest. So the FDA rightly doesn't consider the illegality of use because their approval does not mean it is legal to use in a given jurisdiction. It only means the evidence shows efficacy so the pharmaceutical company can put it on the market.
"It only means the evidence shows efficacy so the pharmaceutical company can put it on the market"
I thought different sections of the law should be read so to harmonize with each other, and that the specific (no abortifacients in the mail) prevailed over the general (FDA can put drugs on the market).
I could always be wrong, but then I'm open to the possibility that you're the one that's wrong.
1. These were approved before Dobbs, so that provision would have been unconstitutional. The FDA can't have acted arbitrarily and capriciously to not give effect to an unconstitutional law.
2. Harmonize doesn't mean enforce. The FDAs lane is only about efficacy. It isn't about law enforcement
3. There is serious questions that still may remain about the Comstock acts. They clearly prohibt things that would be governed by the first amendment (they aren't enforced which is why they aren't litigated). The abortificient supplies aren't but with how much of the law regulates speech there is a strong argument that it is unconstitutional and unseverable. At the very least this isn't something that the FDA is charged with deciding.
4. There is pre-Wade case law (like back to the 1930s at least) that limited the Comstock Act to unlawful abortions. It isn't clear that those have been overruled, and probably haven't. So that would mean it doesn't apply if the state allows abortions. Again whether one agrees with those cases, it isn't the FDAs job or expertice to deal with that.
1. Now that it turns out the Comstock Act’s abortion provision is constitutional after all, a new situation has arisen.
2. You mentioned above that FDA approval means “the pharmaceutical company can put it on the market.” This would become more difficult if the Post Office and private carriers couldn’t carry it.
3. The obscenity provisions of the Comstock Act (I think that’s what you refer to) have been watered down, not struck down. They now apply to only a much smaller proportion of material than used to be the case, thanks to the U. S. Supreme Court’s obscenity decisions and what some might call the open-mindedness of juries.
4. I would guess that this would refer to 2nd circuit precedent, not all circuits, since the 2nd Circuit judges are the guys who started “liberalizing” the Comstock Act in the 1930s. I know about the obscenity decisions and the contraceptive* decisions, but I’m a bit vague on their abortion decisions. Still, I’m not sure all circuits are on board.
*Congress repealed the contraceptive ban in the early 1970s.
1. Legally that doesn't matter. What matters is how an agency acted when it made its decision.
2. Again this about the FDAs domain, efficacy, not about enforcement.
3. The laws on the books are still in violation of the 1st amendment. They aren't enforced, partly because they are unconstitutional but they are still there. So there is still a severability issue
4. But there is caselaw. That is the point. Other circuits may disagree and therefore of a case is brought against the mailers or carriers in those jurisdictions they would be punished. But it isn't the FDAs job to determine if it is correct or not.
You have to separate what is being argued in this case. The only question is whether the FDA acted arbitraily or capriciously. And in the face of questions regarding the law, it can, not being an enforcement body, rely on it's area of expertise (efficacy) and consult with the DOJ. That is what they did. Whether the shipping is or is not illegal is ultimately not in their domain so they can rightly approve things in spite of the questions. That doesn't mean that a company or individual mailing such things is in the clear. It can still be illegal under other laws, like Comstock laws, even if not in violation of FDA advertising and marketing regulations. But that is a different question and the FDA is the correct defendant.
You’re just wrong that the FDA reducing regulation of this drug and the Comstock laws are in any way in conflict. And, more to the point, you are basically arguing that the FDA not regulating (or not prohibiting) something conflicts with laws criminalizing that something.
The absence of a regulation doesn’t conflict with another agency’s regulation or a statute criminalizing something.
If the FDA mandated mailing of a drug that was prohibited by the Comstock Act (assuming it is constitutional), then that would create a conflict. But not prohibiting something doesn’t conflict with someone else prohibiting it.
One more try to explain what to me is obvious. Federal law preempts conflicting state law. If the absence of a prohibition is, as you assert, a conflict with federal law, then states would be required, under the preemption principle, to pass laws forbidding whatever the federal government forbids. But that is obviously not the case.
I would have thought the different parts of the law need to be harmonized a bit better than that. The left hand should know what the right hand is doing.
I'm skeptical of the idea that the FDA can declare, "you can sell this drug, just don't send it by USPS or FedEx or you'll be subject to a prison term for this safe and effective medication.
The whole point of the mailing ban is that abortifacients are *unsafe* for at least one of the people involved in an abortion.
You're confused.
The FDA didn't pass the Comstock Act. FDA isn't declaring anyone will be subject to a prison term for a safe and effective medication, Congress did that and not just for this medication, they did it for condoms and sex toys too.
The whole point of the mailing ban is that abortifacients are *unsafe* for at least one of the people involved in an abortion.
No, that wasn't the whole point of the ban. Unless you are now conflating the Comstock Act and the prior rule, but FDA made findings that it isn't unsafe. The Comstock is the only remaining impediment (if that is valid and effective) to mailing.
The FDA can say what it wants about the medical safety or usefulness of marijuana, but Congress can still pass laws prohibiting the mailing of marijuana or CBD oil or whatever.
Again, just because one part of government outlaws something, it doesn't mean every agency has to also condemn the thing.
"Congress did that and not just for this medication, they did it for condoms and sex toys too."
I believe I've alluded to Congress itself eliminating the contraceptive clause of the Comstock Act, not to mention the courts' watering down the obscenity part.
As I say, Congress found that abortifacients are *unsafe* for at least one of the people involved in an abortion.
You mentioned marijuana, but it's my understanding that MJ's legal status has had something to do with the delay in the FDA liberalizing the MJ rules.
Congress found that abortifacients are *unsafe* for at least one of the people involved in an abortion.
No, they didn't. Lying to support your position doesn't help.
Have an honest conversation or don't.
And this is the point you seem really confused about:
I’m skeptical of the idea that the FDA can declare, “you can sell this drug, just don’t send it by USPS or FedEx or you’ll be subject to a prison term for this safe and effective medication.
Of course they can. Well, they aren't saying anything about what happens if you mail it. The FDA is just saying this drug has medical effects and risks such that it is safe for doctors to prescribe it remotely and for patients to take it at home. I'm not sure why you have this weird wish that every agency has to make a declaration that supports a law passed by Congress. That's just weird, frankly.
The FDA didn’t have to declare condoms unsafe prior to 1971. They could absolutely say they are safe and effective means to reduce the probability of pregnancy and to reduce the likelihood of disease/infection transmission (and presumably did). Congress (and even more so states) outlaws things all the time due to moral judgments having nothing to do with safety or effectiveness, as the condoms, dildos, pornography, abortifacients, and other restrictions demonstrate.
You just want it to be true. There is no logical, moral, legal, or other reason why FDA has to either declare mifepristone safe or unsafe regardless of whether it can be mailed or is even legal to sell. (And, in fact, the FDA approved "The Pill" in the 1960s despite the existence of the Comstock Act and despite it being illegal in some states.)
But I don’t see how it would make sense for the FDA to legalize an abortifacient which can’t legally be sent by the post office or private express companies.
That's weird. I mean, sure, it will mostly be used that way, but if the Comstock Act were enforced, at least some people would get it directly from the drug store, perhaps via pro-choice groups who set up a network that doesn't use means prohibited by the Comstock Act. It still increases the availability and if the FDA thinks it is safe and beneficial to increase availability, it makes sense. Moreover, it also means if the Comstock Act is reversed or narrowed, then the drugs would be more widely available.
You can argue that it has little practical effect if/while the Comstock Act is enforced vis a vis these drugs, but it makes perfect sense if the goal is to reduce unnecessary government regulation of a beneficial drug (which is what this is).
"a beneficial drug"
Well, if you say so.
Medical science, doctors, and patients say so, your religious objections notwithstanding.
“Science” doesn’t say what’s beneficial; attributing such opinions to “science” is essentially a religious belief. You can’t make your views scientific by merely calling them scientific, or else the Christian Scientists would be scientific.
Science can tell us that a drug is safe for the living human being who takes it but unsafe to a distinct living human being. But there’s no personified “science” to tell us that the first human being’s interests are so important as to justify sacrificing the second human being’s life.
Medical science, doctors, and patients say so, your religious objections notwithstanding.
You isolate each of those, or at least one of those, and pretend that the three are not acting in tandem. Troll.
Science can tell us that a drug is safe for the living human being who takes it but unsafe to a distinct living human being.
Science can make predictions about what will happen vis a vis particular cells and organisms, but it actually cannot say anything is "safe" given how you are defining science. Safe is a value judgement or, at best, an undefined term that is very much a subjective determination. You are labeling things "a distinct living human being" which, among other things, is assuming that which you actually need to prove.
If you're going to roll in being a pedant about science, get it right.
Back to the original point, patients and doctors, relying on medical science, have determined that the drug has a low risk of adverse effects and is effective for ending pregnancies that are less than 15 weeks (or whatever precise time frame, not going to look it up), i.e., it is beneficial.
Your only dispute with that is your apparent religious belief that a fertilized cell is a "distinct living human being." And you're trolling about science doesn't have values.......
"She does note, however, that the federal government may not have been entirely consistent in how it has applied such protections under statutes such as EMTALA"
Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act
This is big -- and the point I am trying to make about lawyers being able to reject clients. The Federal government is requiring MDs to participate in providing abortions which aren't even legal in their states, in spite of Dobbs. And they are participating because the 91%-93% of women who don't have complications know that they could get free medical care if they did.
Anyone remember what Paraquat did to the Marijuana market in the late 1970s? Yep, people thought their pot might have been sprayed with Paraquat and didn't dare smoke it anymore.
Women in pro life states wouldn't dare induce their abortions there if they knew that they wouldn't get care if anything went wrong....
Is this the... better that both the child and mother die than a doctor who chose to work a job in an ER provide medical care to save one at the expense of the other...argument??
Hard to parse what exactly is pro life in their conscious decision to work somewhere where hard choices are destined to be made but they want to refuse to make them and let god sort it all out.
If a school bus gets hit by a train and there are 3 operating beds for 5 students all who need immediate life saving surgery... what does their training tell them to do? Is it not triage and decide among the 5, which 3 have the best chance of actually surviving their injuries? Or maybe... twiddle their thumbs and see which of the 5 are still breathing after praying for 30minutes and work on the one's left?
The mother dying sets an example for OTHER mothers as to what could happen to them. It would discourage the practice...
So maybe I should shoot the doctor and let him die in order that he be an example for OTHER doctors as to what could happen to them. It would discourage the practice...
That's why Dr. Tiller was murdered, so it's not like it's a new tactic for the anti-abortion crowd.
Abortion kills a human being.
It must be terrible to believe that most of your countrymen are cold-blooded killers.
Even more terrible when the motivation underlying that belief consists of silly superstition, childish fairy tales, and absolute fucking nonsense.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you know just how far and how long, of course.
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
The fetus is a person and entitled to "due process of law."
Not under American law.
It depends. Each law is different.
For purposes of the 14th amendment, which is what's being discussed here, Roe v. Wade held that unborn babies are not "persons" for purposes of this amendment. However, Roe v. Wade was overturned, so this conclusion may be in some doubt.
So you claim, based upon your religious predilections. My belief system says different, and the vast majority of Americans agree with me.
"based upon your religious predilections"
An unborn baby is biologically a human. Its science, not religion.
"vast majority of Americans agree with me"
A vast majority of Americans once agreed that blacks were inferior.
Right. It's scientifically a human. Before ultrasounds, we didn't understand it as well as we do now, but it is what it is. Kind of like a person being a male or a female.
The belief system comes in when you start to decide how humans should be treated. And whether some categories of human can be treated as disposable property.
An unborn baby is biologically a human. Its science, not religion.
So is my appendix, but outside of a few cults, you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone upset if I get mine cut out by a doctor.
For that matter, "science" once said that blacks were inferior to whites.
So maybe we shouldn't try to legislate what "science says" into the law, no? Attempts to do so have, historically, not aged well.
“maybe we shouldn’t try to legislate what “science says” into the law”
I thought the whole drug regulatory scheme of U. S. law was to legislate science.
And how could we teach science in public schools if we can't legislate what science says?
Give the kids the option of hearing from a creationist! /sarc
... do you not understand the difference between a law that establishes a body to investigate and make judgements, which can then be changed in the future, from a law that just claims judgements?
The legislation that created the FDA, like legislation that creates review boards for schools, establishes the framework for which things will be evaluated. It does not claim the conclusion.
Most of what I’m reading bangs on about standing. But didn’t Dobbs have a standing defect that didn’t slow the Court a step? I wonder if there isn’t a bit of whistling past the graveyard here in that regard.
But I’m worried less about the court blowing up any standing standards as I am them blowing up precedent. Specifically, that standing ends up as no issue for cases the majority wants to overturn/establish, but that the smallest question of standing will be fatal to any case they don’t. That is, will they blow up standing or just when they feel like it?
I mean, that's the rule-of-thumb about standing at the SCOTUS: it only matters when the SCOTUS wants to kick the can down the road and hope someone else flattens it before they catch back up.
Fact is, it's a SCOTUS-invented issue, and they can amend it, break it, or obey it at their leisure. Pretending it's actually part of the law, rather then the mythos the SCOTUS has written around themselves, is a bit silly.
It's interesting that the Roe of Roe v. Wade had standing to assert the right to abort her...clump of cells...even after the clump of cells had been born.
At least Roe had standing at some time. If anybody had standing to demand an abortion, she did. (Standing does not mean the right to sue and win, only the right to sue.) And if federal law ever recognizes fetal personhood, the next friend of a fetus will have standing to demand the pregnancy be carried to term.
"even after the clump of cells had been born"
As I said in today's other thread:
Standing is another “I know it when I see it” doctrine. In a close case where the judge/justice want to hear it, standing is found. When they don’t, no standing.
Look up "capable of repetition but evading review".
Yes, and the doctrine is a good one, and is applicable here, because...?
And when did the question of its applicability come up here? Is someone suggesting that this case is moot?
The context upthread was the suggestion that Roe v. Wade became moot when Norma McCorvey delivered the baby she had not been permitted to abort. That was not so because of the exception to mootness where the question is capable of repetition but evading review. Ms. McCorvey was capable of again becoming pregnant, in which case the challenged Texas statutes would have again prevented her from aborting. The duration of litigating the issue would extend beyond the time that a challenge could have been litigated to final judgment.
I don't see the context that suggests possible applicability to this case; it appears to be only an off-topic comment by Margrave. I understood the application to Roe v. Wade, which would almost certainly come up if one searches for the phrase in my earlier comment. I suppose the current case under discussion might become moot if all of the doctors involved retired, or if pregnancies could no longer occur (e.g., P. D. James' The Children of Men).
Did any of the Justices seem inclined to find standing and also find that the FDA erred?
And here we have precisely the case which shows why conscience clauses and religious exemptions are unreasonable.
"I can't do my job because my imaginary friend says so" -- Then you need to find another job, not demand to keep getting paid while not doing an essential part of that job and certainly not while demanding that that other people die so that you can feel good about yourself.
Let's draft all the conscientious objectors! Send them to the front!
Eh, depends on how much the exemption will impact the rest of the job.
A movie theater with seventeen ticket booths, and one cashier that doesn't want to sell tickets to Barbie, bu the other sixteen will? That conscience exemption doesn't sound like it'd be an undue burden on much of anyone.
A pharmacy with only a single pharmacist that objects to 95% of the prescriptions the pharmacy stocks? That conscience exemption is going to put the pharmacy out of business.
And it's not like it can't change during the day. When there are five ER doctors on staff, a single one can object to abortion-related emergencies, and the other four pick up the slack. But at 2 am and there's only one doctor on duty, the calculus is different.
This does, of course, mean that the more common a given objection is, both among practioners and frequency of occurance, the bigger a problem it is. One in ten ER doctors refusing to do X is much more manageable then nine in ten. But we no more need to consider that kind of hypothetical then we need to consider "what if the whole world turned gay, what then, huh?!"
Thomas was concerned that no one might have standing to sue?
Funny, in Whole Woman's Health v. Jackson, he considered that a feature, not a bug.
The then-existing federal right to abortion could be asserted defensively under the Texas law, leaving affected doctors with their day in court. (The court system does not care much about your legal bills.)
See also Alito’s opinion in Clapper v. Amnesty International USA:
“First, ‘[t]he assumption that if respondents have no standing to sue, no one would have standing, is not a reason to find standing.’ ”
Are you sure he wrote that? You are essentially depicting him as a hypocritical jerk and partisan hack.
What’s next? An allegation he concealed his frequent acceptance of opulent gifts from persons having business before the Court or financial relationships with his spouse?
The legality of the FDA’s decisions can certainly be challenged in appropriate cases.
A specific example is GenBioPro’s lawsuit against West Virginia to overturn its restrictions on mifepristone on grounds the FDA approval preempts them. The district judge ruled that in general federal approval and regulation of a product does not preempt state bans on that product, citing cases upholding state bans on horsemeat despite the existence of a federal regulatory scheme for horse slaughter, a state ban on uranium mining despite a federal regulatory scheme for mining uranium safely, and other generally mundane examples.
But GenBioPro got a small win. Judge Chambers ruled that West Virginia’s ban on prescribing abortifacients by telemedicine was preempted by the FDA’s approval, holding that this matter was within the FDA’s preemptive scope.
GenBioPro voluntarily dismissed this count to enable it to appeal the ruling upholding West Virginia’s abortion restrictions, as it would otherwise have had to wait for trial and final judgment on the smaller win to appeal the larger loss. But if it hadn’t, West Virginia would certainly have had standing to challenge the FDA’s approval of prescription by telemedicine for mifepristone, and indeed any FDA rule that conflicted with or inhibited the enforcement of its laws.
A second example would be a competitor pharmaceutical company, who would have economic standing to challenge an allegedly illegal approval of a competitor drug.
That said, I think it requires an unusual case for simply declaring something legal to be actionable. In the West Virginia case, what provided standing was the claim that the FDA decision preempted its laws.
Given the number of states with abortion restrictions after Dobbs, and given the vigorous efforts of companies like GenBioPro and pro-legalization organizations to come up with legal theories under which federal law or regulatory action preempts those restrictions, I suspect that it is only a matter of time before some enterprising conservative state decides to boomerang one of these federal-preemption challenges to its state laws into a challenge to the legality of the allegedly preempting federal laws or regulations.
Indeed, if I were advising organizations opposing abortion interested in investing legal resources into cases where they might have a chance of getting some bang for their buck, I would suggest focusing on cases involving claims that federal law preempts state abortion restrictions and, leveraging the unusually clear standing that these provide, to develop boomerang arguments challenging the legality of these allegedly preempting federal laws and regulations.
The West Virginia Attorney General was largely content to argue that federal and state law could coexist, an argument that might have been wise as it turned out to be mostly successful.
But a more aggressive state attorney general or advocacy group could choose to argue more aggressively, and say that if there is a conflict, then it is the federal law or agency action that is illegal and has to go.
It won’t come up, but the idea that the FDA is prohibited from considering any other law than the FD&C Act in deciding what drugs to approve flies in the face not only of common sense but of precedent. When Congress specifically criminalized drugs, the FDA didn’t entertain approval applications for them.
Consider a date rape drug. Completely safe and effective for its intended use. Sexual frustration is arguable a medical condition that can be relieved by it. Would the FDA really be obligated to approve it based only on the drug’s affects on humans, and not be allowed to consider the patient’s intended affects at all?