The Volokh Conspiracy
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Insurrectionists Who Think they are Upholding the Constitution are Still Insurrectionists - and Still Subject to Disqualification Under Section 3 the Fourteenth Amendment
If false beliefs about legality exempt people from Section 3 disqualification, leading Confederates would have been exempt as well.

Some argue that Donald Trump is not subject to disqualification from holding public office under Section 3 the Fourteenth Amendment because Trump and those who attacked the Capitol on January 6, 2021 did not think of themselves as trying to overthrow the government. They instead believed Trump was the true winner of the 2020 election, and they were upholding the Constitution by preventing that victory from being "stolen" from him.
Section 3 states that "No person" can hold any state or federal office if they had previously been "a member of Congress, or… an officer of the United States" or a state official, and then "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." Critics of Section 3 disqualification argue that people who used force and fraud to try to keep Trump in power after he lost the 2020 election were not "engaged in insurrection" because they sincerely believed he had won.
Thus, Harvard law Prof. Larry Lessig writes that "the act they [the people who stormed the Capitol] were engaging in was not rebellion. It was an effort to assure what they wrongly believed was the rightful result." He adds that "the vast majority of them thought not that they were overthrowing a government but that they were pressuring their government to do the right thing—at least as they (wrongly) saw it." Stanford law Professor Michael McConnell made a similar point in our recent televised debate on Trump and Section 3.
In the case of Trump, there is a lot of evidence indicating he did know he had lost the election, and his public statements to the contrary were lies. But, for now, let's set that aside. A false belief that you are acting in accordance with the Constitution does not exempt you from disqualification under Section 3. If it did, many of the leading Confederates who fought against the United States in the Civil War would also be exempt.
Section 3 was enacted in the immediate aftermath of the war, included in the Fourteenth Amendment because many feared that, otherwise, ex-Confederate political leaders might return to power. If there's anyone who is disqualified under Section 3, it's leading Confederates who had held public office before the war.
Yet under the reasoning advanced by Lessig and McConnell, many, perhaps even most, Confederates also weren't insurrectionists! After all, Confederate leaders repeatedly argued they were just exercising a right of secession guaranteed to their states by the Constitution. Far from seeking to violently and illegally overthrow the government, they were simply making use of their legal rights. On this view, violence only resulted because the federal government itself violated the Constitution and illegally tried to force the seceding states to stay in the Union.
Soon-to-be Confederate President Jefferson Davis made this argument in his January 1861 farewell speech to the US Senate, where he defended his state's decision to secede. He contended that, under the Constitution, "the right of a State to secede from the Union" is an "essential attribute of State sovereignty." Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens made similar claims. After the war, he even wrote a book-length defense of them, which he entitled, A Constitutional View of the Late War Between the States.
As a legal matter, the Confederates actually had a stronger argument than Trump and his supporters did. The Constitution is famously silent on the question of secession. Before the Civil War, there was a longstanding debate among experts over whether states could legally secede or not. By contrast, there was never any plausible basis for thinking that Trump was the true winner of the 2020 election. By the time of January 6, that point had been reinforced by numerous court decisions rejecting his claims, including many written by conservative Republican judges, some of them appointed by Trump himself.
Morally, the Confederates were even worse than Trump. Whether they had a legal right to do so or not, Davis and the others seceded for the deeply evil purpose of perpetuating and extending the horrific institution of slavery. That's worse than Trump's motivation of keeping himself in power. But many of the Confederates genuinely believed they were exercising rights guaranteed by the Constitution, and their legal rationale was much less implausible than Trump's.
In sum, any claim that the January 6 attack and related attempts to keep Trump in power was not a true insurrection because of the perpetrators' subjective beliefs, also implies that many Confederates weren't true insurrectionists, either. They too thought they were merely upholding the rules of the Constitution, exercising a right that document guaranteed.
And this implication of the theory is enough to reject it. If your interpretation of Section 3 suggests that Jefferson Davis was not a true insurrectionist subject to disqualification, that's a strong sign you got something wrong!
Whether the Confederates, Trump, or anyone else engaged in insurrection or aided one turns not on subjective states of mind, but on objective reality. Whatever Trump and the January 6 rioters might have subjectively believed, objectively they were trying to use force and fraud to overthrow the duly elected president and replace him with the man he had defeated.
This point also addresses Lessig's concern that "every leader who might resist a future coup attempt risks disqualifying themselves from serving in any subsequent government." If what they are resisting is a true coup attempt (i.e. - an effort to use force or fraud to install in power someone who was not duly elected), then the resistance is not insurrection against the United States and its legally legitimate government. Facts, not feelings, are determinative here.
There are a number of other arguments against applying Section 3 disqualification to Trump, including some that may be weightier than the one addressed here. I have previously criticized some of them here and here.
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Wow. Pure desperation. Seriously arguing that what Trump did is even close to what the Confederates did has got to be peak TDS.
Speaking of desperation . . . how is the culture war going for you guys, clingers?
Disney went woke and is now going broke ( and recently announced that it's going quiet in the culture wars). Bud Light has lost billions in market share after hiring Mulvany. Oh and Trump is leading in national polls ( and doing even better in state by state polls giving him an electoral landslide).
Stopping taking the bait in the culture wars is, of course, the best move for the left to make. I don’t get why we’re playing along. Looks like Disney finally figured it out. You probably shouldn’t be too happy about that.
Bud Light has lost billions in market share after hiring Mulvany.
It was funny seeing all of the people making videos saying that they wouldn't drink Bud Light anymore for being woke and would switch to Coors.
https://www.molsoncoors.com/uniting-together/championing-diversity
If conservative snowflakes insist on boycotting every company that goes "woke", they will be left with little to buy or sell. Which is probably why people were still finding Bud Light on the menu at Kid Rock's bar after he shot up a few cases of it for an attention seeking video.
You and Prof. Volokh should enjoy your periodic triumphs for bigotry . . . while you still can.
(Not at UCLA, though.)
Our vestigial bigots are being painted into increasingly small corners of modern America. The Federalist Society will still push to create scattered safe spaces for right-wing bigots, of course . . . while it still can.
Carry on, clingers . . . but only so far -- and so long -- as your betters permit. Not a step or moment beyond. And try to be nicer -- a culture war's winners are not obligated to be lenient toward the casualties.
'after hiring Mulvany'
'Sent a tiktoker some free beer.' Fascist intolerance triumphant!
Setting aside that Bud Light is a beer rather than a company, Bud Light did not "hire Mulvany."
The silver lining to Republicans' bigotry toward anything and everything transgender is that conservatives' general bigotry will drag the rest of the right-wing platform -- gun nuttery, anti-abortion absolutism, xenophobia, snowflake status for (certain) childish superstition, public funding of nonsense-teaching schools (and other clinger subsidies) -- down with it.
It hurts some people and our society in the short term, but over the medium to long term conservative bigotry will precipitate improvement in America.
Then who did? Or was Mulvany hired by the ad agency that was hired by Bud Light's company?
You know you aren't winning the argument when you resort to splitting hairs.
Oh, I think emphasising the triviality of the incident that set of the orgy of hate is important.
Pretty well actually. It's harder to kill unborn babies in most of the "Klinger" states. No longer need a Government License to carry concealed in quite a few now.
“Seriously arguing that what Trump did is even close to what the Confederates did has got to be peak TDS.”
Not really. The Confederate states freely participated in the presidential election of 1860, and then started a war against the union because they couldn’t abide the result. Trump was not as effective as the Confederates, but he nevertheless resisted accepting the result of a lawful election, to the point of encouraging his followers to take the Capitol by force.
The insurrection need not necessarily succeed for giving aid and comfort to be disqualifying.
"to the point of encouraging his followers to take the Capitol by force"
You're even less serious than Ilya the Lesser.
Ilya the Lesser? Ouch.
DEPORT ILYA FOR TREASON!
Such impotence.
If there is anything the bigoted right-wing assholes at this blog can't abide it is some genuine libertarianism. Some of them must pine for a do-over on inviting Prof. Somin to join.
Hey, we should just be grateful he didn't call for Prof. Somin to be murdered, the way he does for immigrants and sex workers.
It's not murder for a nation to employ deadly force to secure its borders and its not calling for murder to say that whores assume the risk of being murdered by whoring.
It is calling for murder.
Can you cite the where Trump encouraged his supporters to take control of the Capitol by force?
Not this again. If you've had your head buried for this long, there's no reason to think you're going to pull it out of your ass now.
So you can't cite where he encouraged violence?
If you want to be an informed citizen, inform yourself. It's not my job. If you want to continue licking the inside of your rectum, that's also fine with me.
If it's that simple to support your argument and you refuse to do so, the only conclusion is that it isn't that simple.
Well that's obviously false, A ASS.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/937/uvB-JDGx_400x400.jpeg
Humbly, Randal.
The original assertion was by not guilty so I asked him for evidence of his assertion. You then stepped in saying his assertion was correct so now I ask you to prove that assertion. The onus is those making the assertion. So can you prove the assertion that Trump encouraged violence on January 6?
You can lick my onus.
Less humbly, Randal.
Yeah, you just conceded that you've got bupkis.
Agree...it was put up or shut up time. Whiffed.
Trump whipped up the crowd days before on social media. And the day of in his speech about how the election was being stolen at that very moment, and action must be taken.
And then, when the crowd became violent he:
1) wanted to join them
2) refused to stop them
Any claim that this violence was not intended, or that Trump did not support them, is obviated by his actions after.
Fans of un-American insurrectionists are among my favorite culture war casualties -- and a core element of a white, male, right-wing blog's target audience.
Are you guys visiting the insurrectionists who will be spending years in prison? Do you bake cookies for them or write letters to them? Send a few bucks for their prison commissary accounts? Check on their families, who probably are or will be hurting?
Keep fucking around, clingers. Your betters have all day.
'Yeah, you just conceded that you’ve got bupkis.'
Endlessly reverting to affected ignorance is obviously great for online arguments. Not so much elsewhere.
The response of a person who has lost the argument.
What argument? There's no argument even occurring. not guilty wasn't talking about Trump, he was making a different point entirely (that insurrections need not be successful to be disqualifying... in fact it's hard to imagine how Section 3 could ever apply to a successful insurrection).
Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity, and feigning ignorance of the subject matter.
https://wondermark.com/c/1k62/
That is what makes sea-lioning so frustrating, and is usually the actual goal of the troll that knowingly employs it. Not only are they insincere in saying that they are looking for a civil discussion or that they just want to see the evidence, but they are persistent in trying to push any discussion only to some tangential point that they think they can win. Or, if they can't win, they can at least be so annoying that the target will finally hit back with invective that they can use to claim victory. Because, you know, only someone that had a losing argument would go ad hominem, right?
Animal-themed metaphors work great for dealing with trolls, really. It's all pigeon chess.
The original assertion was by not guilty so I asked him for evidence of his assertion. You then stepped in saying his assertion was correct so now I ask you to prove that assertion. The onus is those making the assertion. So can you prove the assertion that Trump encouraged violence on January 6?
After two and a half years, it is not believable that you haven't seen the evidence that people have been presenting many times over. Or, perhaps you haven't if you've had yourself so thoroughly wrapped up in a pro-Trump media cocoon over that time that no one has shown it to you or given you an idea of where to find it.
So can you provide a citation where Trump encouraged the J6 protesters to riot?
It’s strange to me that Trump’s supporters are so keen on making this point. It’s almost like they want to take the fall for him.
Trump called on his supporters to come to the Capitol on January 6, an otherwise insignificant date for the official, though somewhat ceremonial, counting of electoral ballots. He told the crowd that the election was stolen from him, and that they needed to “fight” for the country by marching on the Capitol building and calling on members of Congress to do the right thing by illegally handing him the presidency. And then, when it descended into violence, he sat idly by, practically mocking members of Congress who directly appealed to him to do something.
Did he say, “Go and kill all the Democratic congresspeople you can get hands on”? No, he certainly didn’t. He got the crowd riled up, sent them to the Capitol, and let them do what came naturally to a bunch of riled-up MAGA chodes. Hold him blameless if you want, insist that he didn’t lead an “insurrection,” but it seems to me that just makes you a patsy.
He also told the crowd listening to his speech to do so “peaceably.” He told them to call upon Congress to delay certification and investigate potential fraud. As to your last paragraph you show your prejudice towards those who disagree with you.
You may not recall the events of J6 at all, or you may do so fondly, but for most of the country it was an alarming and frightening series of events, and not just for the people inside the Capitol who were under attack. If I am "prejudiced" against the people who attacked the Capitol, claiming "fraud," after months of failed court challenges and uncorroborated claims, all because they could not countenance losing the White House after a free and fair election, then so be it.
Those "protesters" knew they had lost, and I am not obliged to take their claims of "fraud" (or calling for an illegal delay of certification and investigation of fraud that you wrongly believe that Congress was authorized to undertake at that moment) seriously as a mere point of "disagreement." The best thing you can bring yourself to say about their intentions was that they sought to do at the national level to do what they failed to do at the state level, which was to delay and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. I don't owe them a goddamn iota of respect.
Nor do I, you. Nothing about Trump's speech to the protesters suggested a "peaceable" call on Congress to "delay certification and investigate potential fraud." That's after the fact spin. He told them to "fight" to take the country back. "Peaceably," sure. But he put the point in existential terms and directed them to the Capitol.
Wondermark! did a pretty funny cartoon about you.
Predictable reply.
Step 1: Call out a troll on their obvious trolling behavior.
Step 2: Watch the troll turn their obviously trolling behavior on you.
I bet you always win at chess, too.
Perhaps you can offer the citation where Trump told the crowd to riot? Nobody else seems capable of providing that quote.
Nobody cares to cater to your incessant trolling, you mean of course.
"to the point of encouraging his followers to take the Capitol by force."
Can you provide a single example of him, in fact, doing this?
January 6th Committee Final Report
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-J6-REPORT/pdf/GPO-J6-REPORT.pdf
So...no. You cannot. Could've saved the time and just said that.
So ... you're willfully stupid. Plenty of examples in that report.
You're missing the point.
No one is claiming the Trump took part in a civil war.
But they are claiming that even if Trump (and other participants in Jan 6th) had a sincere belief they won that wouldn't save them from disqualification under the 14th amendment.
Just like back in 2000, Gore supporters had a pretty good claim to think they won, it's literally true that more people in Florida tried to vote for Gore than Bush (the butterfly ballots meant that a few thousand voted for Buchanan by mistake, enough to tip the election).
But if they stormed the Capitol to stop the count and force legislators to proclaim Gore President, then they would be insurrectionists.
Even if you could call the rioters insurrectionists how does that implicate Trump? Thus far there has been no evidence that he ordered the violence. He even in his J6 speech told the protesters to demonstrate "peaceably."
He also said the election was stolen and told them to fight like hell.
He also knew that some were armed and wasn't concerned.
I agree the case that he was part of the insurrection is fuzzy, I think he should be prosecuted for trying to steal the election though I don't think he planned what happened on Jan 6th.
It could be he hoped/intended for them to storm the Capitol and the "peaceful" line was to protect himself, but more likely his plan was just a vague 'whip up the crowd and send them to the Capitol to cause chaos'.
The strongest case for him being a participant in the insurrection isn't the speech, but his extreme reluctance to do anything to reign in the crowd once they breached the Capitol. As Commander in Chief he had a duty to protect Congress, and yet he deliberately stood back during the attack.
It's hard to see that as anything but an attempt to help them succeed.
Remember, aid and comfort is sufficient.
I dunno... that's only true if the insurrectionists count as "enemies thereof" (the United States). My read of Section 3 wouldn't count insurrectionists as "enemies."
Make your case in court.
That is exactly where I am, Don Nico. Don't just sing it; bring it.
Let's see what the Special Counsel (Smith) does. If ever a man (are we still allowed to say man, or is that sexist?) was in a better place to make the case and charge POTUS Trump with insurrection, it is Jack Smith as Special Counsel.
I expect Jack Smith to convict Donald Trump.
I expect most Volokh Conspirators and their fans to whine about it.
I am content.
Jack Smith has not charged Donald Trump with offenses that carry disqualification from office as a penalty, even though there is a factual basis to do so. (Especially 18 U.S.C. § 2071(b).) I surmise that is for tactical reasons.
The offenses that are charged in federal court are simpler, more straightforward and more easily understood by jurors.
Bingo. Anything that puts Donald Trump in prison -- lawfully -- is good for America.
...Yeah? Do you think it would be otherwise? No one is saying this would happen without judicial review.
Thanks for the smart ass remark that contributes nothing
By the way "aid and comfort" has has the phrase to an enemy. A phrase that you conveniently forgot on purpose.
You sad 'make your case in court.' That is, in fact, what this whole argument is about. Many on there are arguing that a court coming in at all is an affront to democracy and Trump.
It seems you are arguing against a Baude, Paulsen, and Somin thesis that does not exist.
Also: you don't think the insurrectionists count as an enemy? Because that's a slam dunk case.
“He also knew that some were armed and wasn’t concerned.”
In my neck of the woods 20% of the people you run across in the grocery store are armed.
Why shouldn’t they be armed in a high crime city like Washington DC. And yes I know DC requires a DC permit to carry, but since when does our nations tradition and history allow constitutional rights to end at the state border?
As for the Commander in Chiefs duty to protect Congress, a few points:
1. Its the Senate and House Sergeant at arms and the capitol Hill polices duty to protect Congress.
2. Trump authorized the use of troops Jan 3rd, Capitol Hill Officials turned down the offer due to "optics", although Mayor Bowser accepted a few hundred troops.
3. When Trump specifically asked SecDef and General Miley about Jan 6. contingencies the told him "we have a plan, and we have it handled.
4. No one at the Pentagon thought they needed, nor asked for any further authorization on Jan. 6th.
5. Any delays in deploying more troops was due to logistics and dithering over conforming to the Posse Comititus act, after the previous offer of troops was rejected.
All of that is in the Pentagon after action report and the Inspector Generals Investigation.
In my neck of the woods 20% of the people you run across in the grocery store are armed.
There are places even there where you cannot be armed. The National Capitol is obviously one of those.
There are social media posts where they talk about bringing guns with intent to stop the steal. Not just cause they happen to have guns on them a lot.
Trump wasn't at the National Capitol, he was miles away when he addressed the crowd.
Indeed. And radios are a thing that exist.
In my neck of the woods 20% of the people you run across in the grocery store are armed.
Even if states with very little in the way of gun control, being armed on government property is usually illegal and/or there are certain private businesses allowed to prohibit guns on their property. It can even be argued that it is still consistent with their "good guy with guns" and self-defense theories, as those types of gun-free zones are invariably places with professional armed security (such as sheriffs deputies in county courthouses, armed security at banks, etc.). Government officials or employees would be the most likely targets of anyone looking to do violence on government property, while a grocery store could be robbed or and has been targeted by people looking to shoot up a lot of innocent people at a public place.
I've honestly never been to a political event, but I would think that it would be very standard practice that an event with someone in high office as a speaker would prohibit weapons to be within hundreds of yards of that speaker.
'In my neck of the woods 20% of the people you run across in the grocery store are armed.'
Who knew there could be drawbacks?
Of course it is their duty; that does not mean that it is not also the president's duty.
This is still fictional.
Also fictional. This was about troops keeping order to protect Trump's rally attendees, not about protecting the capitol.
Again, untrue, which is why everyone was waiting for Trump to give the order. At no time on 1/6 did Trump respond to frantic requests for troops with any of these post hoc rationalizations.
You mean he has used the same language as just about every politician for the last century has used? Obama used it frequently, Biden used it in December 2020, Bill Clinton used it, Hilary Clinton used it in a fund raising email in 2016.
And how do you know that Trump knew any were armed? That is personal knowledge of such and not just knew because in a crowd of thousands some were likely to be armed.
And again inaction is not criminal activity in and of itself. I mean would you support charging Mayorkas or Biden for human smuggling for not enforcing border/immigration laws?
That "same language" stuff is tiring. Everyone knows that context is everything, besides, you asked about the weapons:
Hutchinson quoted Trump as directing his staff, in profane terms, to take away the metal detectors, known as magnetometers or mags, that he thought would slow down supporters who'd gathered in Washington. In videotaped testimony played before the committee, she said the former president said words to the effect of: "'I don't f-in' care that they have weapons,'" Hutchinson recalled Trump saying.
"'They're not here to hurt me. Take the f-in' mags away. Let my people in. They can march to the Capitol from here.'"
Knowingly directing what he thought to be an armed crowd to the Capitol, that doesn't fit to well with his "peaceful" statement.
Oh, and I don't know how I never saw this other bit before (emphasis added):
Told by security officials that it wasn't safe to go to the Capitol after he addressed his supporters, he lunged toward the steering wheel of the presidential SUV, she said.
Hutchinson said she was told of the altercation in the armoured vehicle by Meadows' deputy shortly after it happened.
She said she wasn't sure what he would have done at the Capitol as a violent mob of his supporters was breaking in. There were conversations about him "going into the House chamber at one point," Hutchinson said.
Trump doesn't have any role during the count, was he personally planning to barge in, was he planning to lead the crowd inside?
If it wasn't for the secret service I suspect the case for him being an insurrectionist would be much clearer.
Do you deny that the phrase "fight like hell" is commonly used by politicians on both sides of the political spectrum? So simply saying that he used that phrase is proof of nothing.
Removing the metal detectors may have been unwise but also proves nothing. He simply wanted his people to be able to get in in time for his speech.
And the story about Trump grabbing the steering wheel of the limo has long been debunked. Hutchinson's testimony was hearsay at best and the secret service was willing to testify that it didn't occur.
Do you deny that the phrase “fight like hell” is commonly used by politicians on both sides of the political spectrum?
Since it didn't sink in the first time. That “same language” stuff is tiring. Everyone knows that context is everything.
And the story about Trump grabbing the steering wheel of the limo has long been debunked. Hutchinson’s testimony was hearsay at best and the secret service was willing to testify that it didn’t occur.
Debunked is a very strong term. Perhaps they would have testified, under oath, that those specific actions had not happened, but would they have described the same events with slightly different terms?
That limo did not seem to contain a Trump who was happy with his driver.
So when Trump uses it it's incitement but when Democrats do it it's just fine? Yeah I'm not accepting that.
Hutchinson's testimony was second hand at best so yes it's been debunked .
And I watched your video twice and saw nothing and even the site you link it proves nothing since you can't even really see anything.
You strip things of all context you can make unalike things seem the same.
It makes you look pretty silly though.
You're continuing to sealion. Yes, I deny it. You're lying. It's not commonly used in front of an angry mob that a politician has summoned and riled up with lies about an election/country being stolen.
"The strongest case for him being a participant in the insurrection isn’t the speech, but his extreme reluctance to do anything to reign in the crowd once they breached the Capitol."
So, not doing sufficient things to "stop" a riot makes one an insurrectionist. That is certainly a take.
Our current VP helped bail rioters out of prison in 2020. Yet she is not disqualified. Odd. Seems like a special type of justice for some as opposed to others.
It goes to intent and knowledge. If he didn't expect violence, he'd have stopped this thing being done in his name.
So if one person sees another person being robbed and they do nothing they are as guilty of robbery as the actual robber?
1. Trump was not a bystander - his rhetoric absolutely created the conditions, whether you think he directly urged them or not.
2. The insurrectionists were doing so in Trump's name. Trump was in a special position to assist. If he chose to.
3. The President has additional duties. The President is not a bystander when people are invading the Capitol.
So your scenario triply does not apply to Trump.
So you can cite where he encouraged the protesters to violently attack and take control of the Capitol?
Oh and throughout much of 2020 the left declared that Trump had no authority to intervene to quell riots in cities. The left repeatedly stated that it was a state or local matter and the federal government shouldn't get involved.
"The left repeatedly stated that it was a state or local matter and the federal government shouldn’t get involved."
I think they were wrong. However, on that point I think there's a good argument that the seat of the federal government is different.
Out and about but it’s not hard to find. If you cared toz
It’s in thE NYC indictment. And in the J6 charges where people were clearly picking up what Trump was laying down.
"Hi, I'm countmontyC. I'm too stupid to know that Washington D.C. is not a state."
1) His "rhetoric", which consisted of "march peacefully" caused a riot before he had even finished speaking? I am not sure what the First Amendment did to you, but this vendetta against it seems silly.
You have to have some damned clear "He told them to go wild" to even remotely touch "his words 'made' them do it"
That is not what his "rhetoric" "consisted of." You are seizing on one single word out of not just a single speech, but out of two months of ranting and raving.
You mean like "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!"
'Yet she is not disqualified.'
Trump has promised to pardon everyone convicted out of Jan 6th.
Which means nothing. The riot was well over three years ago so it isn't an incentive to attack and Trump, as many others do also, believe that the J6 defendants have been overcharged and excessively punished.
Same with bailing people out.
Actually no. One is occurring before the fact and is basically a promise to get them out of jail before the person takes an action that will get them arrested and the other will occur four years after the crime was committed. In other words Kamala Harris was offering to help those who were in the process of committing crimes. For it to be the same Trump would have to be saying as the riot was going on that he would pardon the rioters if they kept rioting.
How can you bail a person out while they're committing crimes? Also, didn't the police round up and arrest a lot of people who hadn't actually committed any crimes? Also if you're bailing a persn out they haven't been found guilty of any crimes anyway. He's promising to pardon people who definitely committed crimes, on his behalf. Like all the people from his campaign and administration that he also pardoned.
No reply button on your çomment so placing it here.
You can set up a bail fund and say "if you get arrested we will bail you out." In other words directly saying "we will help you if you get arrested for committing a crime."
Bail is not punishment for a crime.
'In other words directly saying “we will help you if you get arrested for committing a crime.”'
Assumes that they were arrested for committing a crime which, as it turned out, very many were not.
But also - bail doesn't get you off the hook if you have committed a crime. It's not, say, a pardon.
No, she didn't, liar.
False. Not doing sufficient things to stop an insurrection — that one started — when one has a duty to stop an insurrection, makes one an insurrectionist.
LOL, oh the "fight like hell" accusation. OK. Here's an educational video on that very subject.
https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1688939456693190656
But Trump didn't storm the Capitol.
True. And Lee didn't storm Little Round Top. Prior to the battle, Lee even told his troops to be peaceful, and not to engage Union forces. Lee was just on a diplomatic tour of Pennsylvania, seeking to create conditions for a political settlement of the war, until he was savagely attacked by Union forces which had been ordered by the President himself to attack Lee, and thwart Lee's peaceful mission.
Trump tried to get the Vice President of the United States killed. Trump ought to be on trial for treason, not for the mushy mumbo-jumbo charges which have been brought against him by the nation's pusillanimous Justice Department. Just from information already publicly available, there is no element of the constitutional definition of treason which the Justice Department could not prove Trump had accomplished.
It's notable that your attempt to refute requires introducing counter-factuals, like Lee not waging war.
If somebody says it's not raining, you don't refute them by saying, "And it wasn't raining last week, when the dam overflowed." Because that's got nothing to do with whether it's raining right now.
You refute them by demonstrating that it's raining.
He also gets the history wrong ( I assume on purpose). The Confederates did attack Little Round Top under the command of Lee
But Lee was distant from the scene of the attack, as was Trump with regard to the Capitol. See the point?
But Lee ordered the attack, while you've yet to demonstrate that Trump ordered an attack on the Capitol. You just can't stop assuming he's guilty, in place of proving it, can you?
As Brett points out Lee ORDERED the attack. Can you offer any evidence that Trump ordered the attack? And that means ordered not simply incited it. Hell can you even provide a citation of Trump inciting the attack?
My layman's understanding of the law of treason is that no one has to prove Trump ordered the attack. It is sufficient to prove that Trump intended an attack, and participated in concert with others in some action purposed to make violence happen with an eye to overthrow the government. For a detailed 1807 analysis resulting from the Burr treason case, see Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout.
If you are unaware of the mountain of evidence already publicly available to show Trump did that, then various prosecutors will update you presently. If you do not wish to be taken by surprise, it's all available for anyone who is not in denial to find with a few keystrokes online.
Of course the point of my Lee comment was simply to show the irrelevance of claims that physical distance from the scene of violence (or even intended but unrealized violence) is in some way exculpatory.
So how do you know that Trump intended an attack? If he had ordered the attack he would already be in prison and among the last things he said in his speech was to protest "peaceably." And none of the charges filed against Trump allege insurrection or incitement to violence.
"layman’s understanding of the law of treason is that no one has to prove "
Your understanding is that on SL has to proclaim "treason" for an action to be such.
Who appointed you an Art. III judge?
The Jan 6 committee spent millions of dollars to find a smoking gun that Trump ordered the attack. They couldn't find it anywhere. So the put lipstick on this pig by compiling a list of insinuations, innuendos, supposed dogwhistles, etc, hoping that would convince the public. They even played Trump's speech for the cameras and specifically edited out the moment when he asked them to march "peacefully and patriotically". Then they showed a video of the riot with mayhem sounds edited in by Hollywood technicians. None of this would fly in any actual court, even in small claims.
Nico, my layman's understanding is borrowed more-or-less verbatim from Chief Justice Marshall. Please read the decision I cited above.
Rohan, did the J6 Committee faked the moon landing videos?
Have you seen the J6 videos? Do you suppose those videos played in a court will not be accepted as evidence of what happened? Do you think those videos do not show an attack? Do you think other videos which show peaceful demonstrators not violently attacking will in any way mitigate the evidence that violent demonstrators did attack, with the intent to prevent the peaceful transition of power? Do you suppose there is any evidence which will be accepted to show Trump had not planned to disrupt the peaceful transition of power on J6?
CountmontyC : Can you offer any evidence that Trump ordered the attack?
No. I can cite copious evidence already publicly known that Trump intended violence, encouraged it, and intended to thwart the peaceful transition of power on J6. Evidence also abounds that J6 attackers relied on Trump's encouragement, by the way. With that kind of evidence—and without any legal need to show military discipline—your demand to see an, "order," remains a red herring.
I assume you have not read the decision in Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout.
"No one is claiming the Trump took part in a civil war."
Only in the sense that the attempt at a coup was so inept, and so pathetic, and so entirely unsupported, that there was no 'war', just a crushing defeat for the Trump-traitors.
"He wasn't an arsonist, he was in the backyard playing cornhole."
"The fact that he was an idiot to think that playing cornhole would set the city on fire doesn't mean that he's not an arsonist!"
That's you.
" it’s literally true "
It is not and you seem very insurrection-y making such blatantly false claims about stolen elections and all.
Somin is a Stalinist Russian. I only want to hear American opinions on this subject.
Are all naturalized citizens not Americans, or only those you disagree with?
I don't think Somin is even trying to advocate what is good for America. His previous post was to import millions of poor Venezuelans.
I think he believes the welfare of America is established beyond any possibility of it being lost, so it can be treated as a never ending piggy bank that can be gone to endlessly to benefit others.
Essentially, Somin got snatched out of the water and into the lifeboat, and he finds the lifeboat so wonderful, he wants to share it with everybody.
He wants to share it with everybody so much, he refuses to consider that he might sink it...
Prof. Somin is a contributor to America. We need more Prof. Somins.
Disaffected, autistic, antisocial, bigoted, backwater right-wing assholes? Those we can do without.
That's where replacement comes in. Every day. Guys like Bellmore die off, taking their stale and ugly thinking with them, and are replaced by younger, more diverse, less bigoted, less religious, better Americans.
It's the American way!
Disagreeing with a countryman so hard you decide they are disloyal is more Soviet than anything Prof. Somin has ever said.
Ilya
Just because you call a dogs tail a leg, does not mean the dog has 5 legs.
This is starting to enter the realm of torture.
GIVE IT A FUCKING REST, ALREADY!
Don't you have a life, troll?
Just because you can't understand the issues doesn't mean you should attack people who do, and who find the thought experiments interesting.
You are worse than useless, as you've been told.
Many times.
Hahahahahaha.
Oh, Pipoca, what a clever and cogent response. Impressionante.
At least he refrained from vividly describing gay sex acts for once!
It's like arguing ex post facto relative to the Nuremberg Trials.
I'm not a fan of QI but executing police officers for "crimes against humanity" is a bit further than I'd like to go.
Of course, TDS is a narcotic and stoned individuals aren't rationale.
"Of course, TDS is a narcotic and stoned individuals aren’t rationale."
Be careful, Querido, the adjective police are em andamento.
Ben vindo, homem. That was the name of my house in Portugal: Casa Queridas (because it was full of my sweethearts)
So anyone is arguably disqualified because we redefined taking selfies to be "insurrection" and we've redefined storytelling to be "facts". Also, attempting to separate fake ballots from real ballots is redefined to be "fraud".
The only thing that's not "insurrection" is blind acceptance of obvious lies from clearly corrupt officials.
Academics should beware of falling into narcissism and consider being quiet sometimes.
we redefined taking selfies to be “insurrection”
No, this is you redefining a violent attempt to stop the electoral count as 'taking selfies.'
That's some storytelling from you.
Ben, give it up. Everyone with a television saw what happened on January 6. Nobody except the already converted thinks it was tourists taking selfies.
If you were a deplorable, bigoted, superstitious, disaffected right-wing dumbass like Ben_, you might be mumbling like Ben_, too.
No one has any idea what you saw or didn't see. We all expect you to lie about it though.
I'm on a little vacation on the U.P. of Michigan, and I'm seeing more "Don't Tread on Me" flags, "Impeach Joe and the 'Ho" signs, and "Trump 2024" banners than I am American flags. You might fit in nicely here, Ben.
I just this week moved from Texas to Ohio. I thought my days of ignorant rednecks were over. Uh...no
"45" got more votes in California, New York, and Tax-a-chussetts (10.3 million, quite a few "Klingers" in Woke-ville) than in South Carolina, North Carolina, Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Virgina, Louisiana, combined.
Frank
I see the same thing every time I visit the In-laws out on Long Goy-land. "45" got more of the vote there than he did in Atlanta.
Ha - the torts doctrine of "coming to the nuisance" comes to mind.
Is there still that nice seafood place in Copper Harbor, that you reach by going through the back door of a gas station? Haven't been there since the late 80's.
I hear its nice up there.
Its kind of funny, during the 2016 election, I like everyone else didn't think Trump had much of a chance, but I did get an eye opener when I took a motorcycle ride through SE rural King County (Seattle is the county seat). I was quite surprised at all the Trump signs, on a lots of houses. What made even more of a contrast even in urban and suburban greater Seattle there was no corresponding enthusiasm for Hillary. Now obviously Hillary did win King County and Washington, but when you see outsized enthusiasm somewhere outside your bubble don't dismiss it out of hand.
By the way in 2016, while I was not a never Trumper, I definitely was Trump reluctant, for a while I was Gary Johnson, but I ultimately decided if I was going to cast a protest vote, then I might as well vote for the protest candidate, as much as it mattered in Washington.
The only sense in which Trump was a protest candidate is the one in which the thing being protested is anything that doesn't benefit Donald Trump.
Of course you expect me to lie; you accept as an article of faith that that’s all liberals do. Other people believe in astrology, palm reading, and weather predictions by groundhogs in February. You’re entitled to believe whatever you want.
Ben's just angry 'cuz the porn in his basement is so low res since his mom won't cough up for decent internet.
Now that's storytelling!
Not repeating the lies is insurrection, after all.
So those Filipinos who went into the streets in 1986 to protest Ferdinand Marcos's "re-election", and Corazon Aquino, who held a presidential inauguration even though Marcos had been declared the winner, and who eventually drove Marcos to flee the country, were all insurrectionists. Got it.
In 2020 Biden was elected, so this is not really a great analogy.
Only peoples erected in the Presidential Erection in Nov 2020 were the erectors, who didn't vote until December 2020, and it's not a "formality" if you'll remember back to Nov 2016, there was serious talk among the Ruling classes that if 30 or so "45" erectors could be "Persuaded" to change their votes Hilary Rodman could be erected either by the Erectors or by the House if neither had a majority
and it's not official until January umm 6th (in 2021 anyway)
Frank
Why does treason never prosper? Because if it prospers, none dare call it treason.
Aquino and her supporters won. They drove Marcos from the presidential palace and took control of the country. (It helped that Aquino actually won the presidential election, and that she was contesting a decades long dictatorship.)
Trump lost. He lost the election, he lost his court challenges, and while his supporters managed to delay the certification and scare the crap out of the Senate, they didn't manage to change the outcome. My sense is that Trump himself only meant for them to protest and put political pressure on Pence, but if you gather a bunch of angry, politically motivated people, sometimes they do something stupid.
That doesn't make Trump in insurrectionist, merely a vainglorious fool.
The case against Trump is more about the plan to use fake electors to re-install him as president, in violation of the Constitution. As you said, he didn't need (or perhaps want) the J6 violence for that to happen. But, it's also famously difficult to control a mob once it gets going...
It is, but the fact that the mob was preplanned by others, who didn't attend the speech, and got going on their schedule while he was in the middle of his speech on the Mall, seems a bit relevant.
Now, if you can establish that the Proud Boys attacked the Capitol under Trump's orders, rather than at the urging of FBI informants/provocateurs, you've really got something. But I've seen nobody provide any evidence of that.
'rather than at the urging of FBI informants/provocateurs'
The fact that so many militant right wing Trump supporters were also informants is hilarious.
Yeah, at times those violent right-wing groups remind one of that episode of Get Smart, where the Kaos cell turned out to consist entirely of infiltrating agents from various intelligence services, the last actual Kaos member having left years before.
There's just not enough of a supply of right wing violence to satisfy demand, I guess, so the FBI has to manufacture it.
Right wing terrorism has never been in short supply, hence the trouble they went to recruiting informants. Naturally you invent a conspitracy theory out of that. Chances are the FBI failed to take indications of a riot seriously, and it is a pity that aspect hasn't been properly investigated.
The best case for Brett Bellmore would be that his antisocial delusions are caused by a physical dysfunction of the brain -- maybe connected to his "neurodivergent" diagnosis -- rather than by his low character.
As hilarious as all the government informants that the FBI had in the Black Panthers?
No, it's the right suddenly discovering the FBI recruits informants in radical groups and deciding that must mean the FBI was behind the whole thing. I doubt the right had much of a problem with the FBI targeting radicals and activists that were campaigning for civil rights or against various wars back when they were patriotic and lawnorder.
And now the left says "the FBI and other government agencies infiltrating groups and encouraging lawbreaking is just a conspiracy theory." And after three years Merrick Garland still cannot answer how many government agents were present January 6 ( and I am talking just the number there not names). And of course Ray Epps was finally charged and despite multiple videos of him encouraging protesters to enter the Capitol he faces a single misdemeanor charge where the maximum penalty would be six months and is most likely zero time and a small fine. Less time than little old ladies who committed no violence and we're in the Capitol for less than 15 minutes.
Yes, it's just that you can usually prove whether the FBI were encouraging the crimes or not, and FBI informants being amongst those who were encouraging the crime is not the same thing as the FBI encouraging. FBI informants are just criminals who tell the FBI stuff sometimes. They're not agents. There's no evidence Epps had anything to do with the FBI.
Countmontyc is a fount of repeating talking points he doesn't understand. Why is it interesting that Garland "still cannot answer" something he doesn't know the answer to? Answer: it's not. What is the significance of Ray Epps? Answer: none. Why is Countmontyc lying about what "little old ladies who omitted no violence and we're [sic] in the Capitol for less than 15 minutes" were sentenced to?
You mean, the people who Trump not only refused to disavow, but told to "stand by"? What does Brett think those words mean?
We know what he'd think they meant if Joe Biden had said them to Brett's imaginary Antifa bogeyman. But what does Brett think that Donald Trump meant when he told them to the Proud Boys?
I disagree. He did in fact need the J6 violence for that to happen. They were Trump's attempt to intimidate Pence and Congress to prevent certification on 1/6 so that he could get the state legislatures to "find" votes for him and declare him the winner and appoint GOP electors.
I mean, yes?
"By the time of January 6, that point had been reinforced by numerous court decisions rejecting his claims, including many written by conservative Republican judges, some of them appointed by Trump himself."
How many of those decisions were on the merits?
At least 10.
https://campaignlegal.org/results-lawsuits-regarding-2020-elections
At least one judge said show me what you got. Under oath.
“Mmmmm…not much.”
It never made it past hot air manipulative lies.
Seriously, the President of the United States had tons of solid evidence and he could convince none of thousands of agents, who have to do what he says, to take it seriously and look into it?
Seriously?
Seriously?
Reason, I hereby declare you a scam level operation due to your video autoplay overlays that get in the way. I would expect cool porn t
Enter enter enter to get past the overlay. Anyway I would expect god damn it two stacking overlays now. I AM TYPING BY GUessing, I would expect cool porn to have ti fight through this much bukkshit, scam operstion.
Set your DNS to private and use OpenDNS. They block most ads, including those here.
Krayt - no new goalposts.
Yes, but they didn't go to trial! They were dismissed before trial! How can you say they were "on the merits" if they didn't go to trial! Going to trial by jury is the only definition of "on the merits" I will accept! Unless it's a jury in D.C., of course, in which case, that kind of trial by jury is a travesty! Those jurors are totally against Trump! It's impossible for Trump to get a fair trial by jury on the merits in D.C.! Or in any other jurisdiction in which the jury pool isn't mainly made up of MAGA voters!
"How many of those decisions were on the merits?"
Several decisions were judgments on the merits. But those actions dismissed for lack of Article III standing meant that the plaintiffs (quite literally) didn't have legs to stand on.
Quite literally? What do you have against amputees?
It's telling that you think a case being dismissed for standing makes for a somehow more valid argument than one that was found lacking on the merits.
Whatever your cult needs to tell itself when the world fails to end! Trump forgot to carry the one so judgement day is actually next Tuesday... or whatever.
They were only decisions that a reversal could not be proved. There were millions of votes that could not be verified, and could have been stolen.
If only he had power and could have his agents look into the reams of solid evidence.
Or even suspected evidence.
It's almost like it was all fraudulent bullshit for consumption by the masses, not actually intended to be acted on.
The number of people who would have to be in on the fake moon landing idea would be in the tens of thousands, not one of whom cracked, even on their deathbed.
This would be magnitudes greater of an accomishment.
"If only he had power and could have his agents look into the reams of solid evidence."
I recall his complaints from that famous call to Raffensperger: He had complained that there was fraud and cheating in Fulton county, and asked Raffensperger for access to those records.
Raffensperger gave him access to records from someplace else, where he wasn't making allegations, and professed to be confused about why Trump wasn't satisified by that...
Federalism, you know: Other people had the power to decide if he got to look, and mostly they didn't let him.
'He had complained that there was fraud and cheating in Fulton county'
Of course, he was lying.
That's not really relevant; Suppose he was lying about it?
It established that, no, he did NOT have the power to have his agents look into things, because those things were under the control of state authorities who weren't in his chain of command. And who were perfectly willing to keep him from looking at stuff.
There's no suppose about it. He knew there was no fraud.
If only he had power and could have his agents look into the reams of solid evidence.
Or even suspected evidence.
And Barr refused to send those agents.
You are arguing against the facts as they come out.
Wisconsin, Georgia, Michigan all have court rulings the election actions taken were in violations of the controlling law. illegal drop boxes, no signature verification, ballots with no chain of custody documentation. Those ballots are illegal and should not have been counted. Since they were mixed in with legal ballots, the only path is for the States legislatures should not have certified the votes.
Citations for those court rulings?
What reason did the courts in "Wisconsin, Georgia, Michigan" give for not overturning the election results?
It's almost like there's something you're not telling us...lol.
There weren't "millions of votes" anything. There is no such thing as "votes that could not be verified." It's word soup. It has no meaning at all.
The claims didn't have any merits.
It’s now clear that Somin would shred the constitution and repeal the rule of law if it meant that he could put Trump in prison, without any regard for the precedent he was setting and its consequences for the future.
It’s now clear!
And it’s clear that your moniker, Number 2, is extremely appropriate.
Juvenile bathroom humor is not funny when Jay Leno tries it, either. At least his timing is better than Krychek_2's.
Well, I’m old enough to know better but not old enough to resist and in the case Number 2 is indeed full of shit.
Who does Number 2 work for?
You are Number 6.
I wondered if anyone else would take it that way.
It was still childish, K_2.
For once I agree with Ilya, insurrectionists motives aren't really an excuse for insurrection in most cases, and the few cases where they are just don't apply in this case.*
But where Ilya once again fails is defining a standard for determining whether someone is guilty of insurrection.
Ilya by trying to deprive Trump and other alleged insurrectionists of a trial by a jury of their peers to determine their guilt or innocence is unworthy of a law professor.
Charge them with insurrection and prove your case or give it up.
I don't think the Constitution specifies a right to a jury trial applies to the 14A Section 3. Nor was it intended to, based on how it was used.
There would, of course, be plenty of legal wrangling if someone tries it.
Insurrection already has a meaning, being a word. So does offering aid and comfort. Dunno what more work you need to do. Though if you want, Baude and Paulsen spend a bunch of pages on the contemporaneous dictionary definitions, intratextualism, contemporaneous public legal and political usage, President Lincoln's statements, contemporaneous Congressional discussions, and even something I'd never heard of called The Ironclad Oath.
Yes words mean things, as when Congress defines Insurrection as a crime, with jail, fines, and disqualification from office.
Its Congress' job to define such things and those definitions are binding on us as authorized by the constitution.
Th elements of the crime of insurrection as spelled out by Congress need to be proven in a court in front of a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt.
Congress didn't define the word insurrection as referring to a crime. What? Don't let's be silly. They defined the crime of insurrection.
New York defined the crime of jaywalking. That doesn't mean it's not jaywalking if you don't get convicted.
According to the law I didn't jaywalk if I didn't get.convicted.
False.
Punishment can only follow conviction
Disqualification under Section 3 is not "punishment"; it is, to use the term used in the 14th Amendment, a "disability".
Indeed, it is a disability Congress is explicitly authorized to remove, should it so desire. (No trial is required.)
I was, of course, referring to the claim that you are not guilty of a crime (jaywalking)
You're not guilty of jaywalking, but you still jaywalked, even according to the law.
Remember how OJ is not guilty of murder, but he's still a murderer, and he still had to pay civil damages?
...unless convicted, which is, of course, true, and is the main tenet of our justice system.
Randal, if you're not convicted of a crime, legally, you did not commit it.
Do you know how the legal system here works? The state has to prove you did something. You are under zero obligation to prove you did not.
You realize a court just made Trump pay some lady $5M for having sexually abused her even though he was never convicted.
So obviously you can be an abuser according to the legal system without being a criminal abuser.
Oh I see ONS made the same point hours ago. Oh well, stealing it anyway.
What? A NYC jury voted to hurt somebody they did not like?
Well, color me stunned.
He did not abuse her. The story was ludicrous from the get-go.
I mean, the Central Park Five WERE convicted....
Trump: liable for sexual assault. A bit of a rapist.
I guess this is you admitting you were wrong in your own way, so, thank you.
You've got to love the epistemic closure of the MAGA lack-of-mindset. "He's not guilty of X because a jury didn't say he did X, but if a jury does say he did X, then it doesn't count because the jury had black people on it."
I'll probably give you upwards of $1000 if damikesc knows what an epistemic closure is.
That's not "how the legal system here works." That's how the criminal justice system works. But a 14th amendment disqualification is not a criminal prosecution.
“As the court explained in its recent decision denying Mr Trump’s motion for a new trial on damages and other relief [in the New York case] … based on all of the evidence at trial and the jury’s verdict as a whole, the jury’s finding that Mr Trump ‘sexually abused’ Ms Carroll implicitly determined that he forcibly penetrated her digitally – in other words, that Mr Trump in fact did ‘rape’ Ms Carroll as that term commonly is used and understood in contexts outside of the New York penal law.”
And yet, Trump has never been convicted of "rape".
You know that, right?
But it does specify that no one may be punished without due process of law.
The 18th amendment prohibited the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages, but that didn't mean that Elliot Ness could point at Al Capone, say "I smell whiskey," and cart him off to jail. Due process still applied.
It applies here, too. If a federal or Georgian Court fines Trump guilty, then we can talk about barring him from the presidency. Not before.
I see your problem! Barring someone from the Presidency isn't a punishment.
I see your problem: You think that matters.
I think a bigger problem is that he thinks he has to destroy America to "save democracy".
I think it's a problem that people who claim to care about democracy and America want to vote for the guy who tried to fraudulantly overturn an election.
Tell me more about supporting the fascist we have in the WH now is the good move for the future of this country.
Yes. They're not fascists: they didn't try to overturn an election, they're not banning books and suppressing college courses and they're not targeting a minority for persecution.
"They’re not fascists: they didn’t try to overturn an election"
Nobody has done that, so nice irrelevant point.
" they’re not banning books"
That is not being done, either. Do you have an original thought in your head or do you just ask "reporters" to think for you?
"suppressing college courses"
So, no, you do not have any original thoughts. You're just "Well, the Left says this and that is good enough for me"
"they’re not targeting a minority for persecution."
Further evidence of your inability to develop a thought.
The current adminstration is weaponizing the government against their political rivals, trying to control what stove you use, trying to control what AC you use. issuing EO's that they KNOW are unconstitutional when they issue them, per their own admission.
'Nobody has done that,'
Oh absolutely Trump tried to do that, and the Jan 6th mob as well.
'That is not being done, either.'
It certainly is.
'So, no, you do not have any original thoughts.'
Oh, so you think originaity is more important than truth?
'Further evidence of your inability to develop a thought.'
Yes, you think an argument is just you going off on flights of fantasy rather than talking about stuff that has actually happened. Eg:
'The current adminstration is weaponizing the government against their political rivals'
Etc
The fascists in the White House have been censoring on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.
The fascists in the White House have been investigating parents speaking out at school board meetings.
And the fascists in the White House are persecuting their top political opponent.
Talking to a corporation does not make the corporation an agency of the government, Count.
What does fascist even mean to you?
None of that is true, though. Meanwhile, Trump tried to overturn an election, a mob of his supporters tried to do so violently.
Who, me? I don't think Section 3 applies to Trump. I just think it for good reasons, not retarded ones like it only applies to criminals.
It absolutely matters. "Heedless" wrote: "But it does specify that no one may be punished without due process of law."
But since we're not talking about punishment, that's irrelevant.
It's a deprivation of a civil right, analogous to taking away someone's right to vote.
The government can take away your right to vote if you are convicted of a felony. They can't do it just because you are accused of one.
It’s a deprivation of a civil right, analogous to taking away someone’s right to vote.
You can get your property rights wrecked via civil or even regulatory process, so this is wrong.
Presumably those civil and regulatory actions are subject to some level of constitutional due process, yes?
Absolutely. And no one is arguing this sort of thing would be above judicial review.
It is neither of those things. There's no right to be president.
Perhaps, but what does that have to do with serving in office? The 14th amendment says that they can take away your ability to serve in public office if you engage in insurrection.
Since 14/3's punishment is not criminal (no jail, no fine), it isn't at all clear either a jury verdict or a reasonable doubt standard applies. Baude and Paulsen argue due process requires the ability to be heard which Trump will get in any appeals process.
Political opponents rubbing their chin and banning an opponent is so much a god damned better thing.
The Constitution need not be enforced only by one of Trump's "political allies" in order to be legitimate (although, obviously, it is his "political opponents" who would be instigating it).
Similarly, had Obama actually been born in Kenya, it would have been "the Constitution" disqualifying him from being president, not his "political opponents"...
"the ability to be heard
generally that means before the sentence.
I found the baude arguement inb that regard rather strained to say the least.
Perhaps the determination you are not qualified is not a sentence.
More crudely (how I personally learned it): Put up or shut up.
S_0,
All your stomping your feet, does not make the J6 riot an insurrection. There has been no such finding by a competent legal authority (or even better a competent judicial authority), yet OLC, the DoJ, and the prosecutors were in a position to do do.
You are just loudly yelling insurrection they same way some commenters yell "person" when there is a discussion of fetuses. After all person is a word and words have a meaning.
Until it is competently established that J6 was an insurrection, all of the self-executing talk by law professors is so much hot air, regardless of their status in the academic community.
So find some buddies with plausible standing and get the question before an Art. III judge. The sooner the better.
Otherwise we just continue will ipse dixit wailing and gnashing of teeth (and stamping of the feet).
This is dumb as hell, Don.
I can call someone a thief or even a killer without a finding by a competent legal authority. That’s not ipse dixit if I have facts to back it up. And if you bothered to glance at the Baude Paulsen article you will see they have facts both historical and recent aplenty.
You’re making up a standard no one follows.
And what is this 'how dare you talk about the procedures a to follow a court weighs in?' That is actually how you do it - figure out what a court should be considering before it goes to court. Seems you're unhappy this is being discussed, but can't really put your finger on why.
If you truly think this is all academic, then why are you here? You and I are here because sometimes academic things matter.
The J6 riot was just one part of the "insurrection". There was no plan (of which we are aware) for the mob to seize control of the Capitol and then somehow that would overthrow the government and install Trump as president.
That wasn't the plan.
Even the Biden prosecutors agree that Trump did not participate or encourage an insurrection.
Cite?
They have used their imaginations to charge Trump with dozens of crimes, none of which can be proved, but they do not even accuse Trump of leading an insurrection.
Not charging a crime doesn’t mean that the prosecutors think it didn’t happen. Sorry dude.
Innocent until proven guilty. When the prosecutor is out to get Trump, and has all the facts, and does not charge insurrection, then yes, it means that they think he is innocent of insurrection.
They can think he's legally innocent of the crime of insurrection but still think he participated in or encouraged an insurrection. Obviously.
So if Trump is legally innocent, why would he be barred under the 14th?
Read the OP.
By your reasoning, all the Confederates who weren't prosecuted for insurrection remained eligible for office, even though preventing that result was the universally known purpose and effect of 14/3.
Congress barred Confederates from holding seats in Congress under their pre-existing Article 1 power to determine the qualifications of their members, NOT under Section 3. That's why they didn't need trials.
As evidenced by the fact that they started doing it before the 14th amendment was even sent to the states. You did know that, right?
But Article 1 doesn't give them any authority to judge the qualifications of a President. So they'd actually need some legal basis for saying he was disqualified, they couldn't do so just on their own say-so.
Well, as it happens, the guys who wrote the 14th amendment? They'd also written the Confiscation Act of 1862, which imposed disqualification for insurrection, rebellion, or giving aid and comfort to the nation's enemies. If you were convicted.
Ballot access due to ineligibility is a solved problem. States have procedures. It is not a criminal action.
Because the 14th is about insurrection, not the crime of insurrection.
The Civil War had real battles. Opposing sides shot at each other. Soldiers died. The South seceded. I am not seeing the similarity with some protesters trying to get into the Capitol building to voice opinions about a pending vote.
Section 5 is about defining the crime.
Section 5 is about defining the crime.
Just like 13A Section 2 is defining enslavement?
Your blithe ipse dixit flies in the face of existing law.
I agree. This has nothing to do with criminality, it's a totally different (and better) argument. In fact it's at odds with the criminality argument. The civil war insurrectionists also weren't charged.
"The civil war insurrectionists also weren’t charged."
That's because they didn't want the Civil war to immediately resume. Not prosecuting them was one of the conditions of getting a surrender.
Surrender Documents at Appomattox
"This done officers and men will be allowed to return to their homes, not to be disturbed by the United States authority as long as they observe their parole and the laws in force where they may reside."
Because the 14th doesn’t turn on guilt vs innocence. It doesn’t say “guilty of the crime of insurrection.” It’s rather a straightforward factual question of whether Trump engaged in an insurrection or not.
Oops I replied to the same post twice! Oh well. Not my best internet commenting day.
Correct, obviously, but hands off my catch phrase!
Oh no I stole your argument and now your catchphrase!
You moved the goalposts, and still ended up with a bullshit assertion.
Your original claim was, “Even the Biden prosecutors agree that Trump did not participate or encourage an insurrection.” After some evasive backpeddling, we arrive at the syllogism at the heart of your argument: “When the prosecutor is out to get Trump, and has all the facts, and does not charge insurrection, then yes, it means that they think he is innocent of insurrection.”
First, thinking he’s innocent isn’t agreeing he didn’t participate or encourage. Thinking ≠ agreeing. But that’s a nitpicky distinction. More important, your assertion that they think he’s innocent is bullshit. Not charging doesn’t mean they think he’s innocent. It means they aren’t convinced they can prove his quilt beyond a reasonable doubt to the unanimous satisfaction of 12 jurors. That bar for prosecuting, that guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a unanimous jury, is miles above believing he’s guilty.
Why would anybody care what a prosecutor thinks?
The Central Park Five prosecutor certainly thought they were guilty.
Guess they clearly were. You know, since the prosecutor thought so and all...
Why would anybody care what a prosecutor thinks?
Take that up with Roger S.
"Not charging a crime doesn’t mean that the prosecutors think it didn’t happen. Sorry dude."
What they think means nothing.
If they have no plan to charge him, then legally, he did not do it.
Fucking Hell, do you really oppose "innocent until proven guilty"?
'then legally, he did not do it.'
Then legally, he isn't charged with a crime. What he actually did is still on the public record, and you either support someone who does those things or you oppose them.
So, yea, you oppose "innocent til proven guilty".
I think you're a pederast. Sure, you have not been CHARGED, but there is ample evidence of it and we all know what you did.
So, care to explain why OJ had to pay $33M to the Goldman family for not murdering anyone?
Because criminal and civil law are different?
Thought that was common knowledge, but I have been guilty of overestimating folks' intellect before.
Because an actual court decision was made after a trial that followed due process and evidence was offered. It wasn't simply one person deciding that he was liable.
Hahaha and the goal posts fly away at relativistic speeds...
Ding ding ding! He's so close to an insight, folks.
Now he just needs to understand that the application of the 14th amendment isn't a criminal process.
That’s just stupid. You’re absolutely reaching for a response and you went into complete idiot mode. Plus you guys accuse everyone you don’t like of being pedophiles all the time, so, so what?
Are they being CONVICTED of it?
You can think Trump is whatever you want. When you start to PUNISH him for what you think, then you've entered authoritarianism.
And you're REALLY going to dislike what that leads to. But, hey, you make the rules. Just do not whine when you have to live by them.
'Are they being CONVICTED of it?'
Well, who knows where the hatemongering will lead?
'You can think Trump is whatever you want'
Well, duh, now you're just agreeing with me.
'When you start to PUNISH him for what you think'
What, like wokeness or CRT or being trans are all being punished?
And we've gone in a circle. Being disallowed from the presidency isn't a punishment, least of all a criminal one.
Disqualification from federal office can be imposed as a criminal penalty -- see, e.g., 18 U.S.C. §§ 2383, 2071(b) -- but that is a different matter from disqualification pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3, which is not a criminal penalty. The two have different elements and are subject to different procedures. The latter is not a determination of "guilt or innocence," just as acquittal in a criminal trial is not a determination of innocence. (Ask O.J., who was acquitted but found liable for killing Ron Goldman.)
Congress can remove a § 3 disqualification. It cannot remove a disqualification imposed pursuant to a criminal conviction. Application of §§ 2383 or 2071(b) is not limited to persons who have previously taken an oath to support the Constitution.
A person accused of violating §§ 2383 or 2071(b) is entitled to a full panoply of procedural safeguards that may not apply to § 3 disqualification proceedings. No right to indictment or presentment by a grand jury applies under § 3. Such proceedings need not be tried in the state and district wherein the offending conduct occurred. There is no right to trial by a petit jury. At any criminal trial, the prosecution must prove every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt, while § 3 is silent as to the standard of proof. A state court or administrative tribunal may conduct proceedings under § 3.
In Greene v. Raffensperger, 599 F.Supp.3d 1283 (N.D. Ga. 2022), Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene challenged the constitutionality of Georgia's "Challenge Statute," which allows voters to challenge whether individual candidates in their districts meet the requisite legal qualifications to run for their prospective positions via an administrative proceeding before Georgia's Office of State Administrative Hearings. Under the statute, an administrative law judge recommends factual and legal findings, which are then submitted to the Georgia Secretary of State for review and final ruling. That decision in turn may be appealed to the Superior Court of Fulton County, Georgia as well as to the Georgia Court of Appeals or Supreme Court. Id., at 1287. The burden is on the candidate to affirmatively establish her eligibility for office, unless the ALJ determines, prior to the commencement of the hearing, "that law or justice requires a different placement of the burden of proof" (which burden shifting did occur as to Rep. Greene). The ALJ reports his written findings to the Secretary of State after completion of the administrative hearing process, whereupon the Secretary of State "shall determine if the candidate is qualified to seek and hold the public office for which such candidate is offering." The first tier of judicial review is in Fulton County Superior Court, which shall be conducted without a jury and shall be confined to the record. Id., at 1289. An aggrieved candidate may obtain review of the final judgment of the superior court by the Court of Appeals or the Georgia Supreme Court. Id., at 1290. A disqualified candidate cannot appear on the ballot, and votes cast for any such candidate shall be void and shall not be counted. Id., at 1289.
Rep. Greene sued for injunctive relief against enforcement of the challenge statute. The Defendants and Defendant-Intervenors argued that the District Court should decline to exercise its jurisdiction to hear this case under the abstention doctrine of Younger v. Harris, 401 U.S. 37, 91 S.Ct. 746, 27 L.Ed.2d 669 (1971). 599 F.Supp.3d at 1297.
In denying Younger abstention, the Court opined that civil enforcement proceedings under the challenge statute are not akin to criminal proceedings. "A state civil proceeding is generally akin to a criminal prosecution when it constitutes an 'enforcement action' initiated to sanction the federal plaintiff for a wrongful act.'" Id., at 1299, quoting Sprint Commcations, Inc. v. Jacobs, 571 U.S. 69, 79 (2013). The Court concluded, "In light of this representation from the State itself that it is not pursuing a post-investigation enforcement proceeding against Plaintiff for wrongdoing, combined with the representation from ALJ in the underlying proceeding that the State is not in fact a party to the matter, it is readily apparent that the state proceeding below is not encompassed within the second category of cases to which Younger abstention applies." Id., at 1301. This analysis necessarily presupposes that federal criminal proceedings are not the exclusive enforcement mechanism to enforce disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3.
On the merits, the Court concluded that Rep. Greene had not carried her burden of persuasion to establish a strong likelihood of prevailing on the merits of her legal claims. The Court accordingly denied injunctive relief. Id., at 1320.
"§ 3 is silent as to the standard of proof. A state court or administrative tribunal may conduct proceedings under § 3."
Which is all the more reason that this issue should be brought to the Courts as soon as possible.
However, so far no responsible state official is doing that. Until that happens this argument seems to be a mask for 'playing the clock" to assure that the matter is not adjudicated before it is too late to matter.
I don't blame them for not wanting to stick their necks out on this. The Section 3 disqualification avenue is unprecedented in this context, and risks inflaming a lot of people. Even if it fails, those people are still going to be inflamed!
I'll gladly discuss it, of course, but my preference would be that this thing just go away and we get on with Trump's numerous criminal trials. Trump should be in prison, not merely disqualified from self-serving as president or dogcatcher.
"my preference would be that this thing just go away and we get on with Trump’s numerous criminal trials. "
I am with you on that.
Kazinski, please show us where Prof. Somin is "trying to deprive Trump and other alleged insurrectionists of a trial by a jury..."
I don't speak for Kazinski, but Donald Trump is entitled to a jury determination of whether he committed crimes. To the extent that disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 is considered in civil proceedings, whether judicial or administrative, a jury may be unavailable to him.
It could be civil proceedings if Congress passed such a statute.
But Congress passed a criminal statute for Insurrection. Under Section 5, Congress' insurrection statute controls.
The insurrection statute predates the 14th Amendment. So, it's not at all clear it should be interpreted as authorizing legislation for 14/3.
Kazinski, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. Congress, pursuant to § 5, could require criminal conviction as a prerequisite to trigger § 3 disqualification. It has not in fact done so.
Congress has included disqualification from future federal office in the penalty provisions of some criminal statutes. It knows what language to employ in order to do so if it intends to apply that criminal penalty to § 3. That would entail enacting a criminal statute which includes as an essential element the accused's having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution and which includes a provision for Congress to retroactively remove the disqualification penalty by a vote of two-thirds of each House.
I understand that a criminal conviction is not necessary, but a judicial finding that the condition for the penalty must be necessary.
And that has not happened. So what are folks waiting for?
Absent a determination of the fact of an insurrection by a competent judicial authority, maneuvers to keep a major party candidate off the ballot is the worst kind of vote fraud.
The folks you are asking 'what are you waiting for' are not law professors. Your argument is not well suited for this forum.
You are begging the question.
That being said, if a secretary of state makes such a finding it will be reviewed de novo all the way up to SCOTUS. So in effect, there does have to be a judicial finding, though it won't be the first word.
Whether judicial review of an administrative finding is or is not de novo depends on the enabling statute(s).
A good faith attempt to adhere to the text of the constitution can never be vote fraud. It may be incorrect to apply the disqualification to Trump, and that is for courts to determine if it happens and a challenge is brought. But none of you can get around the fact that the plain text of section 3 does not require "determination of the fact of an insurrection by a competent judicial authority." The framers were perfectly capable of writing that, if that is what they believed necessary.
Imagine having to prove that a sitting President was in touch with reality. One would think that the burden is on the other side.
Let me know when "45" claimed he was recruited to play foo-bawl at Navy, that he grad-jew-ma-cated at the top of his law screw-el class, that he marched with John Lewis in Selma, Met Nelson Man-del-a-(man!) in Jail, still mourns his son Bo who "Died in Ear-Rock"
Frank
You do know who the current President is, right?
He seems not in touch with reality.
Somin, you're gonna have a tough time trying to get the traitorous, neosegregationists in this group to process your line of argument
There are a lot of Libertarians here, and they usually do not agree with jailing politicians for expressing political opinions.
Is that all they did? Express opinions? Well, sheesh, have I had this all wrong. I must have been imagining all the other stuff. Apologies everyone! Sorry about all the redneck cracks!
That's all that Trump did.
As far as I know, none of the Capitol rioters are running for President.
Interesting. Ineligibility for office is a type of jail?
There are a lot of Libertarians here, and they usually do not agree with jailing politicians for expressing political opinions.
You have called for the deportation of Prof. Somin *an American citizen* to Russia for expressing political opinions.
Shitty hypocrite.
Yes, deport all the anti-American foreigners. Don't jail him. Just deport him.
He's not a foreigner, you lying piece of shit. He's as much an American citizen as you are. He's worth a hundred of you.
No, he is not. Somin was born in the USSR, and never adopted American values.
Born in the USSR, you don’t know how lucky you are boys, Born in the USSR. Well The Ukraine girls really knock me out They leave the West behind And Moscow girls make me sing and shout That Georgia’s always on My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my mind
Oh, show me ’round your snow-peaked mountains Way down south Take me to your daddy’s farm Let me hear your balalaikas ringing out Come and keep your comrade warm Hey, I’m back I’m born In the U.S.S.R Hey, it’s so good to be home Yeah, born In the U.S.S.R
Super libertarian to advocate for state action based on your personal take on American values.
'and never adopted American values.'
You first.
There are plenty of disingenuous right-wingers who claim to be libertarians (or “often libertarian” or “libertarianish” or some other self-serving, misleading bullshit) . . . but few libertarians.
How broad is insurrection? Is every instance of say, resisting unlawful arrest insurrection? Is every crime, violent or not? It all amounts to resistance to authority.
What principled line exists to demarcate insurrection from lesser forms of lawlessness?
The line is certainly crossed by crowds storming the capitol, smashing windows to get in, and putting members of Congress in fear of their lives, after giving an encouraging speech and smirking at the mayhem on TV and doing nothing to stop it until prevailed upon after it was clear it wasn’t going to succeed.
How about crowds storming the White House in May of 2020? Or how about repeated attacks for months on a federal courthouse as occurred in Portland Oregon? Perhaps creating "autonomous zones" in several US cities might be declared insurrection? Democrats supported all of that ( Kamala Harris even helped raise funds to get the perpetrators out on bail).
Btw can you cite a law that required Trump to demand that the J6 rioters stop.
The Dem leadership wants you to forget that ever happened.
https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/rage-at-capitol-assault-makes-excuses-for-summer-riots-all-the-more-disgraceful/
When Reason covered the riots in Portland, all they did was whine about uNmArKeD vAnS.
If you want to call it an insurrection, go ahead, it was definitely popular unrest against police brutality, which is actually a thing, and a significant thing at that, as opposed to Trump's lies about voter fraud.
Weirdly, the small government people who are paranoid about the over-reach of government power and violence and who think that being armed is important in case they have to stand up to government tyranny don't give a shit about people being snatched of the street in unmarked vans.
The "take control of their country" part is a key part. Otherwise every old riot would be an insurrection.
That's right. If they were trying to use violence to take control of their country, then they would have started by bringing guns.
Oh my god. They had guns. Are you stuck in the designated free-speech zone for retards?
Now fill in the details on "they" and "had" so we can all have a good chuckle. Again.
They, being, the people participating in the insurrection.
Had, as in, carried with them during the insurrection.
Perhaps as a leading constitutionalist you'd call it "bearing arms."
I'm not sure what you find either confusing or funny about that.
Aw, how cute! You completely made it sound like there were a bunch of armed people storming the Capitol, while exquisitely calibrating your words to avoid actually saying that.
Were this anything close to what you really want to make it sound like, you wouldn't need to play word games like that.
Huh? They were your word games. You ask me to define words, I do, then you accuse me of playing word games?
There were a bunch of armed people storming the Capitol.
Great -- thanks for clearly owning that. Now this is the point where you post your... you know, evidence for that statement, at which point we can then compare reality to rhetoric.
Why don't you follow Roger's lead and take some initiative yourself? I don't have any special knowledge of the situation. It's all public records.
Because you're the one throwing around the ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric that you know isn't true but are parsing uber hard to pretend it is. I'm certainly not going to try to prove it for you.
What ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric? Oh, were you offended by the free-speech zone for retards thing?
Oh, stop it with the coy routine. It's clear you're retreating with your tail between your legs at this point. Two posts up: "There were a bunch of armed people storming the Capitol."
Put up or shut up.
What century do you live in? You obviously have access to the internet. Go ahead sea lion, keep barking.
And that would be the "shut up" fork, kids. Pathetic.
Here, try it! I'll help you.
Google: jan 6 gun convicted
My suggestion is that you sign up for How To Internet For Old Farts 101 at your local community center. Learn how to learn! Then you won't be and look stupid when you participate in online fora such as VC.
LOL. “You know I’m right — go fish.” The refuge of blowhards the world around.
Based on the evolution of the other subthreads around here, it feels to me like you really, really don't want to get backed into the corner where you have to admit there were just a couple of randos somewhere in the crowd of 60-70k people that nobody at the time even realized actually had guns. So you're just trying to insult your way out of trouble. Not gonna work. Back your inflammatory rhetoric or retract it.
I backed it. Google jan 6 gun convicted. That’s almost as easy as copying a link, but helps you build up your knowledge muscle at the same time.
Anyway I’ve been here before. With you. Multiple times. If I do post links, you’ll just ignore them (like you are with my google “link”) and/or ghost, only to reappear tomorrow and feign ignorance all over again. As you also already know, it’s called sealioning, and no one should fall for it.
I don’t mind insulting your dumb ass over and over, of course. That’s the silver lining.
But for the benefit of everyone else, I’ll make a more interesting point. Obviously many more people had guns than just the “couple randos” who got caught. My over / under is 7% of them were armed. I used to say 10% but revised it down after considering that a lot of people flew in and bringing a gun on a plane is non-trivial.
LOL. "Go fish and guess what I'm thinking" Whatever, dude.
You're absolutely correct that I don't play your "here's a search string -- guess what results I'm relying on" game, and I cheerfully stand by that. As to specific links you feel like I've ignored, I strongly suspect that's more bluster thrown over your shoulder as you desperately slink toward the exit. Feel free to provide an... um, link to any time you feel like that's happened (and hopefully after writing that check, it's something more than you going back to an old thread and posting a belated last-word reply).
You kids and your hipster slang. Whatever that's supposed to mean, it's just another distraction: the issue here is you making ridiculously over the top statements and then lashing out at those who make a simple request for any actual facts that would remotely support them.
Speaking of ridiculously over the top statements: "obviously." Got another Google search string for that bit of hopeful nonsense? My over / under is the statistically zero range that has emerged, based on the fact that large swaths of the federal government have spent the last 2+ years trying to make examples out of as many people as they conceivably can, and this is all they've been able to scrape up. And once again, the only reason you have any cover to pretend the number is larger is because no guns were displayed -- by civilians, anyway -- during the entire exercise
That's your "armed insurrection."
I'll end as I started: if the facts were remotely supportive of your "a bunch of armed people stormed the Capitol" nonsense, you wouldn't need to play cagey games like this.
The first result.
Now what's your excuse?
His excuse is that this is his jam - take a side argument of dubious materiality and then pedantically pick at it (changing his goalposts as needed).
I do not know why he loves this so, but he does.
It's especially odd because not only does it give me the opportunity to insult his intelligence like a million times, but with each new post he's doubling down on being a) ignorant b) on purpose. Personally, I love it.
More cuteness, since anyone who knows anything about Google at all knows that it serves up different results for different people.
The first link that comes up for me speaks of a single person, Christopher Alberts, with a "concealed weapon." Fits my worldview perfectly, and shows your desperate game perfectly.
Did you want to try again?
Ah, a new troll tags into the thread. Must be time for a new cloud of distractions!
Yay, you’re learning! There’s a bunch more convictions, of course. Feel free to look down the list of results if you don’t believe me.
Your “worldview” appears to be that the feds have xray vision and/or psychic abilities (not to mention that the courts are willing to accept the feds’ psychics as conclusive criminal evidence) and as such, all the guns that got brought to the insurrection are accounted for by these convictions. Those imaginary feds sure are amazingly powerful and efficient!
My worldview is that the convictions are evidence of the presence of guns. Given how difficult it is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone was carrying a concealed weapon, the percentage of people carrying guns was likely quite a bit higher than the percentage of people actually convicted on gun charges. There’s also the anecdotal evidence (people bragging about having brought guns and observing that those around them were also carrying). If one were to put a lot of weight in the anecdotal evidence, an estimate as high as 25% or 30% could be justified. I don’t put that much weight in it, so my estimate is only 7%.
Readers of this thread (if there are even any left) will just have to decide which of us has the more plausible “worldview.”
LOL. Back to the “bunch” stuff, when you know good and well that you can comfortably count them on the fingers of one hand — and again, all post-hoc determination/confessions.
That’s the part you keep trying to handwave around, because you have no good response. Nobody in your “armed insurrection” actually pulled out their guns.
Well, I mean, Washington law enforcement of all stripes are actually trained to scrutinize large crowds of people for signs of guns — for obvious reasons. Apparently you’re willing to suspend disbelief that nearly 10% of the crowd pulled the wool over their eyes. Guess it takes all kinds.
Re powerful and efficient, they’ve done a most excellent job tracking down thousands of people to the end of the earth, up to and including 60-something grandmothers. And I’m not willing to label any governmental bureaucracy as particularly efficient, but again no resources have been spared making as many examples as humanly possible. If you think it passes the red-face test that ~7% of people were packing and they could ultimately only charge a small single-digit number of people — after the fact — that’s… interesting.
Cool math and stuff, dude. Pity that not a single person in this putative armed-to-the-teeth cadre (at least 4-5k by your math!) actually proved you right by pulling out a weapon on that fateful day. But why get pesky real-world facts get in the way of a good histrionic academic exercise?
I’m not trying to handwave around it. I’m ignoring it as an irrelevant attempt to distract.
Sadly your post has nothing else in it worth responding to… I mean, I guess I can point out that the Capitol Police seemed to have other things on their minds than trying to guess (and… write down for later use by prosecutors?) which people they had “scrutinized” to be carring a gun. But you already know that, it’s just another straw you’re grasping at in order to hold on to your delusion that… what, exactly? The crowd was unarmed? Seems like we’re well past that lie.
So… what is it? What percentage of people do you think were armed?
Yup, there it is. As I've said repeatedly in this exchange, at least three or four posts ago you were signaling that you were headed for the exits because you knew you had no -- zero -- support for your risible claim that there were "a bunch of armed people storming the Capitol," and since then you've just been trying to stir up as much of a haughty fuss as you could on the way out to try to camouflage that. This final detachment was clumsy, but probably the best you could hope for. See you around.
You're giving up? I don't blame you, you've got nothing but feigned ignorance going for you.
Looks like my evidence and analysis stands. A bunch of armed people stormed the Capitol, probably about 7% of the crowd.
No, none of the Jan. 6 defendants had guns. No one was charged with a gun offense.
Incorrect! Not only charged, but convicted.
I rechecked, and you are right that several were convicted of gun possession. It appears that none of them actually used their guns.
In the Civil War, soldiers actually shot other soldiers on battlefields.
and actors shot Presidents in Theaters.
Ever notice that Lincoln was shot in a Theater, and his Assassin was caught in a warehouse, while Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his Assassin was caught in a Theater.
Or that Lincoln had a Secretary named Kennedy, and Kennedy had a Secretary named Lincoln. Believe it or not!
Frank
Look,the fact that radical gun nuts with their big expensive armories are actually chickenshits comes as a surprise to nobody. Guns are for intmidating drag queens and shooting up transformer stations when there are drag queens around, not for getting into actual fights with armed police officers.
I love when you guys try to argue that a bunch of yokels waving toy flags and literally no firearms somehow put the union at risk.
By what mechanism would the rioters "take control of the country"?
Was it accomplished by stealing Pelosi's podium? Is that where all the power resides?
False, and previously debunked.
Killing or holding hostage members of Congress and the Vice President to get fraudulent electoral votes counted appears to have been the plan.
"Killing or holding hostage members of Congress and the Vice President to get fraudulent electoral votes counted appears to have been the plan."
as the cool kids say "That's a feature not a bug"
and how much do these new Iphones cost? People lining up like they're giving out blow jobs from Lauren Boebert, economy must not be that bad
Frank
Yes yes... TWO people had a gun on capitol grounds . An entire fraction of a percent of people there that day. Statistically almost 0%. The conspiracy was afoot!
The ones known to have guns; the number could be much higher. But overall a triumph of Washington DC gun laws. Apparently gun laws do stop criminals from bringing guns to their crimes.
There was no plan.
You people are absurd.
Again, show me the means that they intended to accomplish this with *checks notes* two guns. Only vague claims of nefarious plans that the feds claim existed.
Seditious conspiracy convictions mean there was a plan, proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
The Trump admin had a powerpoint.
The insurrectionists were caught on wires talking about their plans to violently disrupt the count.
'By what mechanism would the rioters “take control of the country”?'
I don't know, maybe we'll find out if you let them try again?
This country was born of insurrection. I have no problem with it, if it is warranted.
So far: police violence - not warranted.
Corrupt malignant narcissist lies about election fraud - warranted.
Nah, that's probably somewhere in her double-wide ice cream freezer.
Always worth remembering you guys voted for a guy with a golden toilet.
I don't remember seeing Trump in the crowd.
Only because the Secret Service wouldn't drive him there.
Requiring an insurrectionist to be present in a battle would have excused any officials in the Confederate government who did not fight, which would seem an unlikely outcome, but maybe that is how the Fourteenth Amendment was applied to Confederates.
OK, but Trump didn't storm the Capitol.
Trump is a lifelong coward. He always finds dupes to do his dirty work while he rides in a golf cart, complains about bone spurs, and/or displays a Bible.
"bone spurs", lol. You realize your candidate Biden used the exact same process to get out of serving in Vietnam, except he claimed asthma instead (keep in mind Biden was a college football player).
One is a person trying to overthrow his arrest by a peace officer. The other is trying to overthrow the entire government thus robbing the entire nation of its rights
The Sweep and Force of Section Three
by William Baude & Michael Stokes Paulsen
pp. 66-117. They spend way more time than you'll want on how broad is insurrection.
Or the Reader’s Digest version:
Resisting unlawful (or lawful) arrest? Nope, because that is the action of an individual.
Every crime, violent or not? Nope. Not non-violent crime (lack of force in most cases). And not ordinary violent crime (e. g., assault) that doesn’t challenge the authority of the government to execute its laws.
What about attacking Secret Service agents protecting the White House?
If it is the concerted action of a group, sounds like it qualifies as insurrection (as Baude and Paulsen define it).
Trump retreated to a bunker, but if that would impede the execution of laws in any significant respect then the country is really in trouble. It is not clear if an assassination would count, unless it sufficed to bring into power those who would not execute the laws. A change in policy from the Vice President taking over from the assassinated President wouldn't impede execution of laws, assuming that the new President adhered to his oath of office. The January 6th insurrection impeded the counting of electoral votes, which seems a significant respect; it could have gone on much longer if members of Congress had been killed or taken hostage.
So, Trump having to be sent into a bunker to minimize the risk of a mob trying to murder was NOT insurrection, but Congress having to delay a vote briefly WAS an insurrection.
Intriguing.
Didn’t happen.
Are you unfamiliar with that incident in May 2020? He was NOT sent to the bunker out of concern of the mob trying to murder him after assaulting numerous police and Secret Service?
No, according to Trump; he went there "more for an inspection". No evidence that anyone in that protest was calling for his murder, unlike what the January 6th insurrectionists were saying about killing Pence, Pelosi and others.
Members of Congress fled in fear from insurrectionists in their buildings calling for killing them, and sheltered for hours waiting for reinforcements to take back the Capitol. Hundreds have been convicted since then.
Trump spent an hour in the White House bunker when protesters "breached a set of temporary fences that had been erected around the Treasury Department alongside the White House grounds." Fewer than 20 people were arrested as a result of the demonstration that sent Trump into hiding.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/trump-protests.html
(They were lying about attacks to make the protesters look bad and justify attacking them and use of chemical irritants.)
(And then Trump lying differently to make himself look better.)
Once again, this is the problem in any situation where you sit down and try to finely parse the definition of a word for the first time after the activity in question. Such a post-hoc exercise provides plenty of opportunities to come up with an exquisitely calibrated line to ensure the target activity falls inside it, while other similar activities fall outside it.
It reminds me a good deal of "obstructing an official proceeding," which we debated a good deal around here last year.
'I'll argue shit endlessly. This means nothing can never be understood for sure and Trump wins forever.'
Aw, Sarc -- it's been the better part of a week since you've ignored what I've actually said and tried to stuff your own entire straw man sentences in my mouth instead! Been busy?
Interesting point, professor.
Lincoln, not successor Andrew Johnson, declared Davis to be an insurrectionist. Did President Trump, the then-sitting Chief Executive and the only person in the nation empowered by the Constitution to offer a definitive response respond to an emergency situation, declare anyone to be an insurrectionist, as did the savage President Lincoln? If he did not, the issue is settled: there simply are no insurrectionists subject to action... and you can savor the moment that your argument relied upon the actions of President Trump.
the only person in the nation empowered by the Constitution to offer a definitive response respond to an emergency situation
This some secret Constitution?
savage President Lincoln
This some Lost Cause thing?
You realize disqualifying Trump will lead to a real armed insurrection - not a mild riot like J6? J6 happened because the DOJ/FBI instigated and there was anger because no court every allowed an evidentiary hearing on the election rigging that most certainly occurred. So if you think suppressing the will of a well armed American populous is a good idea 4 years later, I think you’ll find that view highly mistaken. If you live anywhere but the coasts, you know this to be true.
People like Somin say that they want to preserve democracy by jailing Trump and not letting anyone vote for him.
Trump should be put in jail. That US citizens should be prevented from voting for a jailed felon is the question.
If “45” should be “put in jail” for some bullshit cases that are so weak they’re only being prosecuted by Step N Fetchit DA’s who couldn’t convict Representative Pramila Slapajap Jayapaypal of being homely, in cities where the average Jury has the combined IQ of S-S-S-S-S-S-Stuttering J-J-John Fetterman (can’t wait until he’s a Surpreme Court Judge) THEN…. Parkinsonian Joe and Robert “No Neck” Menendez should be hanged for Treason on the steps of the Capital. “Specifications”? I’ll start with allowing 10,000 potential terrorists to enter the US every day, and taking bribes from the homeland of Moe-hammad Atta.
Frank
You're right, Frank. Not "jail", prison.
Why didn't you do it last time then, if you really thought the election was rigged?
I'll tell you. There's not actually anything to fight over. At least the confederates had a cause in slavery. What's the cause? Drag shows? The whole right is just having its pathetic grievances stoked, but the grievances are too pathetic to actually make for a fighting cause. If you knew what you actually wanted, then your threats might be threatening.
"You realize disqualifying Trump will lead to a real armed insurrection – not a mild riot like J6?"
Yeah, right. A bunch of keyboard warriors and malcontents are going to tangle with the United States Armed Forces.
Pass the popcorn.
"Yeah, right. A bunch of keyboard warriors and malcontents are going to tangle with the United States Armed Forces."
The presumption here is that member of the US Armed Forces would follow orders to fire upon or seize US citizens, irrespective of posse comitatus? If you think so, you haven't spent much time talking with the senior enlisted or office corps.
and despite all the talk about the "Woke" military, most of the guys (yes, Guys, Males, Men) with actual fighting skills are closer to Tim Mcveigh than Tim Scott.
Suudy and damikesc, why do you impugn the professionalism, devotion to duty and capabilities of our armed forces?
The Posse Comitatus Act, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 1385, provides:
I surmise that you are overlooking 10 U.S.C. § 252, which states:
"Suudy and damikesc, why do you impugn the professionalism, devotion to duty and capabilities of our armed forces?"
You're the one assuming they'll just butcher their fellow Americans because a dementia addled idiot told them to.
I'm saying they're, you know, humans and unlikely to do that.
Yes, you’re hoping they’ll join you and install Trump as president for life and wipe out all opposition. Then you and your local Proud Boys militia group will use your 2nd Amendment freedoms to round up any of your neighbours who might be disloyal.
"Yeah, right. A bunch of keyboard warriors and malcontents are going to tangle with the United States Armed Forces."
Yeah, the Armed Forces are going to fire on their fellow citizens. On family members.
Sure, likely scenario.
Nice to see the constant threat the Left employs of siccing the military on citizens they do not like. I bet this will never lead to bad things.
I thought the military had gone woke.
Again why do progressives have such a hard-on for using the military to kill people they do not agree with?
You seem to support it as you have never once said it is a bad thing.
Hey you guys keep bringing up civil war, not us. I've complained about armies killing people they don't agree with quite a lot actually. I particularly remember being especially opposed to it after 9/11, for example.
We're not advocating using the military to kill Americans.
You are. Fuck, Obama DID it specifically.
Oh, you want to do all the killing yourselves. Got it.
no court ever allowed an evidentiary hearing on the election rigging that most certainly occurred.
Not true.
Constitutional law cannot be based on whether a well armed buncha deluded people will be mad. And your threat is pretty hollow; armed but the threat is pretty unestablished and disorganized.
"And it will be our fault!
If only we hadn't enforced the unfair terms of the Constitution, armed rebellion wouldn't have been necessary. Any ensuing bloodshed is therefore on our hands, ooooooohhhhhh, noooooooo!"
Maybe that argument works against guilt-ridden, milquetoast US "liberals", but I imagine Constitutional rightists will simply shoot back.
because no court every allowed an evidentiary hearing on the election rigging that most certainly occurred
This is a lie
There were trials on the facts of the case
traitortrumps own appointees laughed him out of court, not just ruled against him, laughed him out
zero evidence of fraud.
Oh wait, there was, all by Republicans
Quite the threat, but I'm going to have to call your bluff.
In the event that Trump is eventually disqualified from the Presidency, I say to you:
Bring it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-service-moved-trump-to-secure-bunker-friday-after-protesters-breached-temporary-fences-near-white-house-complex/2020/06/03/e4ae77c2-a5b9-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482_story.html
Some of these people who attacked the Secret Service agents may have had a sincere belief that Trump colluded with the Russians®™ to steal the 2016 election.
That does not justify their attacksm on the Secret Service agents.
You defend the J6 people who *got into the Capitol* and bringing up some folks getting past a fence way away from the White House only underscores your weak-ass double standard.
1/6 managed to avoid even attempting to burn down property.
Yeah, they were more into blood and disrupting an actually then occurring process of our government
Far more people were injured on 5/29/20.
Try again.
Trump would have been wise to have his people allow the church across the street to burn to the ground rather than put it out. Make it a symbol of what the Left did.
'Make it a symbol of what the Left did.'
What, oppose police violence? As opposed to opposing an election result you didn't like?
Sure, hold on to that.
Again, when was the last time you held an original thought?
Facts is facts.
So your violence and rioting is acceptable while that of the J6 protesters isn't?
No violence and rioting is acceptable. But the BLM protests were for a good cause, the J6th protests weren't. The riots around the BLM protests didn't make the cause any less good, the J6th riot actually made their cause much, much worse.
It's not often that "moving the goalposts" is used that literally. Nicely done.
I think the more relevant belief was that Trump was a useless piece of shit who didn't care if the cops shot people and got away with it.
....hmmm, I notice the lack of any punishment for a cop who shot an unarmed protester on 1/6.
I also notice the lack of rioters killed by cops on 5/29/20.
And you think Trump cares?
And you think Trump would have cared if there had? In fact didn't he want the army called out?
I know you do not, in spite of just discussing how terrible it is.
Your core beliefs sure seem to be core in only certain situations.
His core belief seems to "my side can do anything and your side can do nothing."
Whattaboutism plus strawman.
'I know you do not'
Well you do like making stuff up and being, lol, 'original.'
'Your core beliefs sure seem to be core in only certain situations.'
You don't really know what my core beliefes are, that would only get in the way of your 'originality.'
'“my side can do anything and your side can do nothing.”'
I'm not the 'side' that wants a rich and powerful man to be entirely above the law and face no consequences for his actions, and for the actions of his supporters in trying to overturn an election and instal him as president to have no consequences for them or for him.
ThomasReeves:
"You realize disqualifying Trump will lead to a real armed insurrection."
Misericórdia agora, Pateta! You have no leadership, no organization, no logistics and half your confederados are federais disfarçados. Tentativa de suícidio, Bobo.
HaHa! Stop it! Yer killing me dude!
Obrigado. Estarei aqui a semana toda.
Heh. You picked a strange blog to be on during your trip. You a Portuguese avogado?
This makes what, the fourth or fifth article on this question? I can tell you the only person who made any sense to me whatsoever was the guy who argued that an insurrection can only be waged by an enemy combatant.
No enemy, no insurrection. Simple and clean.
Who made that case?
They're actually articles about different aspects of the Section 3 question.
Are you sure you're in the right blog?
I am referring to the draft article, “Sweeping and Forcing the President into Section 3” by Josh Blackman. This was summarized here in the VC here: https://reason.com/volokh/2023/09/12/new-article-sweeping-and-forcing-the-president-into-section-3/
You need to read the full paper to appreciate the argument. I certainly found it persuasive. The crime of insurrection is an act of an enemy, and it has two components: “engaging” in insurrection, and “giving aid” to an enemy of the state. Blackman argues that people are conflating these two into one, such that even failing to sufficiently prevent an insurrection is the same as engaging and giving aid.
That’s nonsense, he argues, and I agree. Insurrection is something only enemies can do. It is an act of war. Rioting, on the other hand, is just rioting. It is, of course, still illegal, but it’s not “insurrection”.
Note, however, that this is not at all the strongest or best legal argument against applying Section 3 here, it just happens to be the one which appealed to me.
So Confederates were not enemy combatants? baloney
When you engage in insurrection, you become an enemy combatant
One can argue if 1/6 was an insurrection, or was intended by the participants to be an insurrection, but if it was, they are enemy combatants
"An enemy combatant can be defined as a person who, in times of armed conflict, engages in hostilities for the other side. The term enemy combatant is a concept creating an extraordinary legal status with specific rules that were established by President George W."
Dubya is older than he looks if this is a term applicable to the Civil War.
A person “parading” through the Capital building is obviously not an enemy combatant.
A person taking up arms to overthrow the government obviously is one.
What is your actual problem with making this distinction? It seems at least to me to be a very easy one to make.
You may be making exactly the mistake that Blackman is warning against, however, which is conflating the actual act of taking up arms and performing an insurrection with a mere failure to act to say such a thing would be wrong.
Your Stage 4 TDS has really become desperate, tiresome and pathetic. We get it, you really don't like, verging on hate, Trump. Great, don't vote for him and encourage others not to vote for him. But this is getting downright silly.
This is all just entertainment for the law professorate, and their pathetic cadre of hangers on (us).
When his gets to the Supreme Court, and you can be pretty sure it will be in plenty of time for the election then the Supreme Court is not going to rule the 50 Secretary of States can have 50 different answers as to whether Trump is eligible.
They are going to rule there is only one standard for determining whether Trump meets the constitutional qualifications to be President.
And if there is only one standard then its going to be was Donald Trump found guilty of insurrection by a jury of his peers.
And these dueling blog posts, comments, op-eds, law review articles, briefs, and lawsuits filed hither and yon, illustrate why the Supreme Court will hear any such case early, and they are going to want a clear standard, with due process and an ability to confront witnesses, and a verdict beyond a reasonable doubt.
So unless Congress acts between now and the primaries and revises the current Section 5 remedy, Jack Smith had either charge Trump with insurrection or get off the pot.
Why do you think the current Supreme Court would rule that particular way?
Because the Court doesn't have a majority of NeverTrumpers, and it really is the most obvious position if you don't start from the overriding premise that Trump has to be kept out of the White house.
The same people who wrote the 14th amendment wrote the 1862 Confiscation act, which made insurrection, rebellion, and giving aid and comfort to the enemy crimes, and established that they'd carry the penalty of disqualification. And they wrote the 1865 Civil rights act, (Finally passed over a veto in 1866.) which defined citizenship, established a requirement for equal protection of the laws, and prohibited denying the rights of citizenship on the basis of race.
The purpose of the 14th amendment was to regularize the constitutional status of a bunch of things the Radical Republicans had done during the Civil war without having any constitutional basis for doing them. Section 3 constitutionalized the Confiscation act, just as Section 1 constitutionalized the first Civil Rights act.
And this is bloody obvious, if you don't, as I say, start out from an absolute conviction that Trump must be kept from office, (A position Somin held before he even got elected!) and work back from there to determine the 'meaning' of the 14th amendment that will accomplish that.
I state the reason:
"the Supreme Court is not going to rule the 50 Secretary of States can have 50 different answers as to whether Trump is eligible."
Which seems to be Ilya's and Baude's position.
I think you’re right, except for the requiring of a criminal conviction part. It just blatantly doesn’t require a criminal conviction.
They’ll just say he didn’t “engage” in an insurrection, and that anyway this wasn’t the sort of insurrection 14th was talking about, and that anyway 14/3 doesn’t appy to the office of president.
What part of the constitution do you believe contradicts that position? Where does the constitution prevent the condition of having 50 states having 50 different standards as to whether Trump is eligible?
Which seems to be Ilya’s and Baude’s position.
Nope. You made that up. Baude contemplates this going to the SCOTUS. Somin is silent on this issue.
You regularly don’t do your homework, and make up what it would say if you had your druthers.
Do your fucking homework, Kaz.
I fully expect the question of what criteria and procedures govern disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 to come before SCOTUS. (Unless Congress intervenes in the meantime, as it is authorized to do by § 5 -- but don't bet the rent money on that.)
That is why I have advocated the appropriate state officials to sue Donald Trump in U. S. District Court for a determination of his eligibility to serve as president if elected pursuant to the Declaratory Judgments Act, 28 U.S.C. § 2201 et seq. That is the speediest vehicle to get the matter before SCOTUS.
Fed.R.Civ.P. 57 authorizes the court to order a speedy hearing of a declaratory judgment action. When a judgment is entered in the District Court, the losing party can immediately file a notice of appeal to the Court of Appeals and seek certiorari before judgment in the Supreme Court pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2101(e) and Supreme Court Rule 11.
If a state court or administrative tribunal rules on Trump's eligibility, the matter would need to be presented to the highest court of the State in which a decision could be had before SCOTUS would have subject matter jurisdiction to grant review, per 28 U.S.C. § 1257(a).
At this point, it does not appear that any state official is inclined to either ask for a declaratory judgment in federal court or to disqualify Trump. My money is on the issue never being decided.
A group of Republican and non-affiliated voters has sued the Colorado Secretary of State and Donald Trump seeking a determination of Trump's eligibility to appear on that state's Republican primary ballot. Judge Sarah Wallace has set an expedited schedule for the case and has said she hopes to decide by Thanksgiving. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/18/politics/colorado-judge-14th-amendment-ballot/index.html Hearings are scheduled for late October.
Do those groups have standing? What is the injury in fact for them?
About the same as that woman who *might* set up a website business and who *might* be contacted by gay people if she did.
Kaz, if you're not having fun, maybe don't post.
You seem to read in a lot into comments that's not there.
I'm definitely being entertained.
The real fun starts when Trump's cell door closes.
Let him run . . . as best someone -- let alone a fat 75-year-old with debilitating bone spurs -- can run in a 60- or 70-square-foot prison cell. In Georgia, without air conditioning, ideally.
There are three major weasely behaviors going on, and major constitutional design shows major issues should be obvious to all, to stop weasely tricks.
1. Trump was being weasely trying to trickey his way back into office. Ultimate legal judgement aside, it’s clear his lawyers were weaseling a long shot within the lines.
2. Democrats are being weasely trying to keep him off the ballot, where, unlike the Civil War, where insurrection was obvious, here there is no such obvious concensus outside motivated weaselry.
3. Reason is being the weaseliest of all weasels with their blocking, repeatedly popping up, long-delay-until-dismissable videos.
Momma always said, “Weasels are as weasels wease.”
1. Yes, he's not exactly a man of courage. You say "weasely", I say "sleazily", but it's pretty much the same assessment of character. Wise lawyers do try to keep within the lines, and sometimes they still go over those lines--and go to prison. Unwise lawyers are even more likely to cross those lines. Which kind of lawyer does Trump surround himself with, do you think?
2. Some Democrats, sure, but there are also plenty of other people considering this, including, you might have noticed, quite a few Republican lawyers and law professors?
3. Use a pop-up blocker? I see no such videos. None at all, so nothing to dismiss.
4. I hope yo momma wasn't an English teacher...
Krayt, information about what happened on J6 seems to have a hard time catching up with you. When the time comes, watch the trial coverage closely. I recommend MNBC, even if you don't like their politics. They will illustrate with news footage points made in court—which if it's a federal court you will not see any illustrations covered except by enterprising media. Try to slow down, to let the information catch up with you.
Yes, that is what I said. Do the needful and demonstrate sufficiently to his supporters that this was akin to a rootin tootin civil war.
“That’s not what the Constitution requires.” <– weasels
Supporters, which, by the way, does not include me. I am anti-trickery. Anti-weasel. I would be happy to not vote for him a third time! But this is bullshit and will shame the US by one side disabling a political opponent through trickery, even as you think you are heroically saving democracy. Weasels.
Convince the masses! Weasels.
"No! We don't need them. We can use this one weird trick..."
Isn't that what you scream Trump tried to do with his slates?
This whole kicking him off the ballot thing isn't going anywhere, don't worry.
'there there is no such obvious concensus'
Isn't there? Outside of Trump deadenders and lazy centrists? What most people who voted for Biden are seeing is Trump getting away with trying to overturn the election and deny their votes. Endless talk about Trump being held accountable and facing consequences has rarely resulted in actual accountability or meaningful consequences. Why should this be any different?
Trivially, once you exclude everybody who doesn't agree, you have a "consensus". That's true of anything, isn't it?
Yes, that is trivial.
Nige, and beyond accountability lies deterrence of others, which is more important. The way the charges against Trump got framed, they maximized opportunity for MAGA types to stay in denial, by recasting charged felonies as vengeful, lawless attacks on protected speech.
Not much deterrence available there, no matter how the trials turn out (or when). That would be less a problem if Trump were on trail for his life, for treason, with the question to be proved not being what he believed, but whether he attempted war against the United States.
I could be fine even if Trump were acquitted of that charge, because it would leave me confident that almost everyone else would think twice before doing it themselves. And on the basis of information already publicly disclosed, almost all of it from Trump himself, or from erstwhile supporters, there is little doubt that Trump actually did accomplish every element of the constitutional definition of treason. Acquittal would depend on disproving at trial a mountain of apparently-dispositive evidence already known, with probably more to come.
Apparently cringing from fear of an accusation of being called political, the Justice Department has recklessly under-charged Trump. The baleful results are evident not only on this blog, but throughout the MAGA bloc.
"Apparently cringing from fear of an accusation of being called political, the Justice Department has recklessly under-charged Trump."
I don't think so. Trump is charged in two federal courts with misconduct serious enough to send him to prison for the rest of his life. The offenses charged are easier for jurors to understand and apply than more esoteric charges would be. (And based on what is publicly known, Trump has not committed treason by any stretch of the imagination.)
Not guilty, I greatly respect your legal commentary. If you say I have it wrong about treason, I am more than half-inclined to think again.
But please help me out. What must have confused me is the decision in Ex Parte Bollman and Ex Parte Swartwout. Have you read that one carefully? If you think I misunderstand it, what did I get wrong? Are there subsequent precedents more applicable, or which overturn that one?
Technically, "45" didn't "lose" the erection until the Electrical Votes were counted in the Congress.
So he didn't "know he lost the erection"
You know, sort of like in 0-16' when there was hope among the ruling cl-asses that perhaps some "45" erectors could be persuaded to vote for Hilary Rodman.
But hey, where's the Senator Menendez Mug Shot? "Perp Walk"? Jail? certainly seems to be a "Flight Risk"
Frank
Are you Japanese?
He's imitating the late Rush Limbaugh.
"And this implication of the theory is enough to reject it. If your interpretation of Section 3 suggests that Jefferson Davis was not a true insurrectionist subject to disqualification, that's a strong sign you got something wrong!"
Oh, bullshit.
Look, the Union's view of secession prevailed over the Confederacy's view of secession, not on account of superior arguments or logic, but on account of the Union being better at killing people. For no other reason. They didn't win an argument, they just beat the other side into submission while killing a lot of people. And, let's be honest: Over no more glorious cause than establishing that the US was a roach motel, states could check in, but could never check out. I'll gladly concede that the Confederacy's reasons for leaving were hugely worse, but neither side was in the right, the Confederacy was just a lot more wrong.
Now, I will give you this: The 14th amendment was adopted with the Civil war in mind, so the Civil war was, for 14th amendment purposes, definitionally insurrection and rebellion. QED. Seceding and waging war with the US is, unquestionably, insurrection.
Have we had a civil war lately? No so's I've noticed.
If I say that skink in my backyard isn't a dinosaur, you're not refuting me by saying that T Rex was a dinosaur, and if my theory about skinks not being dinosaurs implies that T Rex wasn't a dinosaur, it's just wrong. But that's what you're attempting here.
Look, I put it to you that if January 6th was an insurrection, fine, so were all those Antifa/BLM riots, and legislative chamber invasions, and the clawing at the Supreme court's doors while Kavanaugh was being sworn in. Insurrections are happening all the time! So let the slaughter begin, we have an awful lot of insurrectionists to disqualify.
But just disqualifying on the basis of one of those nano-insurrections, and none of the others? Yeah, I'm not going to sugar coat it, that's bullshit.
Pity more people don’t appreciate this point. President Lincoln crushed civil liberties left and right, even arresting the Maryland state legislature at one point to prevent them from even voting on succession.
If parading around Capitol Hill is “insurrection”, then what do you call what Lincoln did?
We just have to understand that the law is of only minor help in sorting this out. This is primarily a political matter, that is the best venue to decide and resolve these questions openly and fairly.
The Framers were smart enough to know when the courts need to step back and just left the people hash these things out for themselves.
I believe States should be able to secede from the Union, under the Constitution as then written. The Civil War was fought for other reasons, and need not be repeated if, say, the left coastal States decide to secede from Trumpistan (should he seize power somehow and rename the USA more to his liking).
Not by simple majority, no way in hell.
Simple majorities do not, in fact, have some magical democratic, ethical power to rip the other 49% away.
In fact, that’s a bullshit concept because 51% is the demagogue’s stock in trade, their one superpower, blowing the transient winds of political passions. Quebec thinks of leaving (well, pols who would find greater fortunes in the new, more powerful government thinkedddd of it bigly) and wisely stays. But hinging on 51%? BS
Onion layer subnations think of un-uniting the United Kingdom from time to time, but decide to stay. But hinging on 51%? BS
UK leaves EU on 51% BS, some of you non-thinkers who regurgitate echo chamber orders like a simple Turing machine tape, oh, nowwwwww take note and wonder if it’s such a good thing. Of course 51% got them in, 51% can get them out. Supermajorities should be in place for both directions.
Is your point that a supermajority should have been required before the Confederates were allowed to succeed from the Union in order to make it legitimate?
I don't think that would have mattered much, frankly. By the time you get to shooting at one another, the differences between 51 and some other number are pretty much irrelevant.
They did not 'parade around capitol hill'
They violently assaulted the Capitol
I am using the term “parading” because that was what many of them were actually charged with. It may be a surprise that no one was ever charged with insurrection, they were charged with disruption, breaking and entering, assault, and, yes, “parading”.
The reason I am focusing on the least of these charges, is precisely because folks continue to paint all the J6 rioters with the same broad brush of "insurrection". That's just rhetoric.
But but but they had pure hearts
Seditious Conspiracy
Close enough for me
Close enough when a conviction is not required, as it was not by the Amendment
Less violently than on 5/29/20. Just sayin'.
You're not going to like when the Democrats get brought up on charges for their behavior during the 2020 riots. Because it will happen now that the rubicon has been crossed.
Just sayin
the 2020 riots were not a conspiracy led by the president to overthrow the government
and yeah, sure no convictions
The AP found that more than 120 defendants across the United States have pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial of federal crimes including rioting, arson and conspiracy. More than 70 defendants who’ve been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more.
"Just sayin
the 2020 riots were not a conspiracy led by the president to overthrow the government"
Our current VP helped bail them out of prison. That is more direct support than anything Trump has done in your fevered mind.
Multiple Democrats allowed them to take over parts of their cities and commit murder with no punishment. Far more than Trump ever did even in your fevered mind.
This will end up going poorly and you will complain when it does. C;est la vie.
"The AP found that more than 120 defendants across the United States have pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial of federal crimes including rioting, arson and conspiracy. More than 70 defendants who’ve been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more."
Yes, I know the system is turning fascist to protect the Democrats. No need to further prove the point.
People will eventually decide that a thoroughly unjust system is not worth following any longer.
Texas, thankfully, is approaching that.
'That is more direct support than anything Trump has done in your fevered mind.'
He's promised to pardon them. That seems VERY supportive.
'People will eventually decide that a thoroughly unjust system is not worth following any longer.'
Anyone who thinks the right's relentless whining about the legal system when it came to the J6th defendants is going to lead to anything other than people like J6th defendants being protected and everyone else being subjected to even worse injustices is fooling themselves.
People will eventually decide that a thoroughly unjust system is not worth following any longer.
'Let us wreck the Republic or we'll wreck the Republic!' the tantrum of the deluded and impotent.
Like, you don't even understand the purpose bail serves in our justice system.
You got halfway there, but "openly and fairly" isn't a venue.
I think Section 3 doesn't apply to the President at all, and that's how the wise framers set it up so as not to involve the courts.
The eligibility of Senators and Reps can be adjudicated by the Senate and the House.
The eligibility of officer appointees can be adjudicated by the President and the Senate.
The eligibility of electors can be adjudicated by states and Congress.
The eligibility of state-level positions can be adjudicated by the states.
The only one that doesn't have a built-in natural adjudicator (other than the courts) is P/VP. And lo and behold, they're not included in Section 3! Which is another way of saying that the eligibility of presidential candidates is adjudicated by the people in the form of elections.
Actually, the President/VP does have a natural, built-in adjudicator.
The electors!
Hm... maybe. I'm not sure they have enough autonomy to be effective adjudicators.
They ARE included in section 3. Of all the debates on this subject, the notion that President and VP wouldn't be disqualified is the most farfetched. Even the record of debate in Congress on the amendment does not support your position.
Well said. The Civil War was, well, war, and in war, might equals right. It's not about logic or anything else.
The Civil War was about treason in support of chattel slavery. On balance it produced beneficial results, but at a terrific cost.
Funny how several Slave States fought for the Union. I think it's more complicated than your 3rd Grade Ed-jew-ma-cation taught you.
They didn’t win an argument, they just beat the other side into submission while killing a lot of people.
This is the Lost Cause. The South was wrong. Morally and legally. There in fact legal arguments saying this. Baude and Paulsen recapitulate some!
Stamping your foot and saying no does not change that fact, it just tars you with their moral stain.
The 14th amendment was adopted with the Civil war in mind
This is false. There is a Congressional record and they are not about the Civil War, Brett.
Your originalism rests on fiction. Which has always been the case, but is more starkly clear now.
Look, I put it to you that if January 6th was an insurrection, fine, so were all those Antifa/BLM riots
You keep saying things that are not different are the same, and everyone secretly agrees with you. This is not true.
I in fact said they were morally wrong. I don't think they were legally wrong, and shooting people didn't prove them legally wrong. I think they did something they were legally entitled to do, for the worst possible reasons. Then the Union did something they weren't legally entitled to do, for bad but not nearly so bad reasons.
The Union didn't get their way on secession by winning an argument. They got their way by winning a war.
Yeah, I get that it's really important to you that violent, even armed, attacks on government, aiming at forcing policy changes or even taking away from the state control of territory, NOT be "insurrection" unless they happened at the Capitol on January 6th. I can understand why you want that to be the case.
I don't get why you think anybody should humor you on that. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, even if the gander doesn't like it.
Win on this, and you'd better prepare to be drenched in that sauce, no matter how much you complain about it.
Trying to force policy changes through illegal means, even violent ones, simply doesn't meet the definition of an insurrection. Insurrections are about trying to take control of government.
I wouldn't even call the Civil War an insurrection since the South wasn't trying to defeat and replace the US government. It was a rebellion, not an insurrection.
And rebellions are covered by Section 3, too.
Any way you slice it, it's practically impossible to establish that Trump is guilty for Section 3 purposes, without a hell of a lot of people being equally guilty over the Antifa/BLM riots, legislative chamber invasions, attacking the Supreme court building...
What Sarcastr0 doesn't want to accept is that this scheme to disqualify Trump, but not anybody on the Democrats' side, is critically dependent on them always having control. The moment that tables turn, their own rules will bite them hard, and predictably so.
Just like abolishing the filibuster for confirmation votes.
Just like deciding that the majority could veto minority picks for committees.
Actually, I guess it IS in character for the Democrats to assume that they can craft weapons to use against Republicans, and never have the Republicans pick them up and use them. Despite it happening over and over.
'The moment that tables turn, their own rules will bite them hard, and predictably so'
Ie, you're hoping threats will keep the Dems in line and protect Trump from the consequences of his actions.
I'm not doing will to power, Brett.
You can't seem to understand that my opinion is not outcome oriented. It is based on the facts and the law.
It it not based on threats of how lawless the GOP is gonna get. The GOP wants to go try Section 3 on BLM or the Dems for saying stuff in support of BLM?
They get their day in court as well. It's a dumbass day in court that I feel would not be well received by the populous at large, but go ahead.
Wait, are you now suggesting that the BLM riots count as rebellions? I don't think so lol. Attempting to force a policy change, even through violence, is neither an insurrection nor a rebellion.
They literally took over areas of cities and declared them independent; How was that not an insurrection?
I think you could argue that that specific action counts as a rebellion since it involves rejecting the authority of government. But not run-of-the-mill political protests, such as BLM ones.
You know, I'll grant that there WERE run of the mill political protests. I saw a BLM protest myself last year, in Greenville. Totally non-violent, as you'd expect in a jurisdiction where they'd have been arrested in a heartbeat if they'd started smashing windows and setting stuff on fire.
Likewise there were BLM riots, which you might have guessed I was referring to when I used the term "riots". When somebody uses that word, it's usually a dead give away that they're talking about riots. [/sarc]
I get the impression you want to pretend there weren't any BLM riots. Which is, of course, nonsense, BLM has had a violent streak from the very start.
So, sure, they're not violent 100% of the time. The worst violent criminal doesn't spend every waking hour being violent!
But they've been violent a hugely greater fraction of the time than any ordinary, genuinely peaceful organization.
I mean, there's no violence in your link.
You're hyper vigilant to the hint of use of force with BLM. And you've made up some vast Antifa organization our of whole cloth.
Your standards when it comes to Trump's phone calls, and tweets, and of the J6 people is vastly more lackadaisical.
Ironic you claim others have a double standard, when you've got this beam in your eye.
No, that's not the point I was trying to make. Really the point was that run-of-the-mill protests often turn violent. That doesn't make them insurrections. But I'm happy to revise my statement since you found it confusing.
I think you could argue that that specific action [taking over areas and declaring them independent] counts as a rebellion since it involves rejecting the authority of government. But not run-of-the-mill political riots, such as BLM ones.
"I mean, there’s no violence in your link."
Seriously? You think they just politely asked for the microphone? And Sanders said, "Sure, I organized this rally to speak, but, eh, you do it instead, I'll go find a shuffleboard court."?
The guy is ancient, what's he supposed to do, risk broken bones by holding onto the microphone?
"Run of the mill protests often turn violent"
No, they don't, unless they're organized by violent people. I've been to dozens of protests and political rallies, not one of them became the slightest bit violent. Most of them were like large group picnics!
Why?
Because the groups organizing them weren't violent groups, that's why!
Seriously, you need to stop normalizing political violence. No, it's NOT normal for protests to turn violent! That it's so common on the left, and starting to happen on the right, too, is pathological. It's a trend we should be pushing back against, not nodding and saying "what can you expect, it's a protest, of course windows got smashed and stores got looted, perfectly normal."
Well, sure, but the way to push back is not to call every political riot a rebellion or insurrection. That'll just normalize actual rebellions and insurrections.
It's reminiscent of how we now call everything racist, which has had the effect of normalizing instances of actual racism.
I don't see any real philosophical difference between taking control of the government to implement your desired policies and using violent uprisings to force an existing government to implement those same desired policies.
Scope is an important concept to pay attention to.
Both in ends and means.
Some block in Seattle is not the National Capitol.
Installing your President who lost the lection is not getting some new police oversight.
Not saying rioters shouldn't go to jail, but it takes a massive leap to pretend these things are the same.
How about repeated assaults on a federal courthouse? On ICE buildings? Or an assault on the White House as occurred in May of 2020?
There were no such assaults. You are exaggerating in a vain attempt to get something equivalent to tu quoque about.
Sarcastr0, do you not understand that it doesn't matter how deep you go into denial about those riots and attacks, your denial doesn't bind Republicans, should they end up in a position to return this favor?
Your conviction that the various attacks on federal buildings, the creation of 'autonomous zones' and expulsion of police from them, were not insurrection, will matter no more than Republicans' conviction that January 6th wasn't an insurrection, should Republicans end up in a position to do unto you. We'll be operating on the basis of OUR perceptions, not yours.
So, again, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. This WILL come back to bite you, just like getting rid of the filibuster did.
No one thinks every political protest is an insurrection. That's just dumb, Brett.
My distinguishing stuff that is not the same from J6 is not hard. Have you noticed how you don't even bother engaging anymore, just insisting?
Your argument, never plausible to begin with, has become laughable as more facts about what Trump did came out, and BLM has faded in all but those who out there enough to argue BLM is the new KKK, with the Dems pulling the strings.
Don't be daft, there's a huge and important philosophical difference. The premise of a protest, even a violent one, is that the protesters intend and desire to follow the laws of the government, they just want the laws changed in some specific way. (If they didn't intend to follow the law, why even protest? You don't see criminals protesting, they've already made their choice.)
The premise of an insurrection, on the other hand, is to reject the authority of the government itself. To rip up the Constitution. That's a completely different proposition.
Also, of course, they are conflating the protests with the riots. They res ipsa loquitor real hard on that one.
Didn't they teach anything at autism school -- when discussing how inability to engage in normal human interaction could be a problem -- about just shutting the fuck up sometimes?
This is a remarkably oblivious comment, even for you, Rev.
I have no interest in appeasing people who try to wave away how despicable the Confederates were. Clingers who dislike this are invited to line up alphabetically and kiss my ass.
When you realize he's former Penn State Defensive Coach and Turd Burglar Jerry Sandusky the obliviousness isn't so surprising.
You seem to have some very confused views about what inmates in prison are allowed to do...
Bellmore, for years I have been telling anyone who would listen that dinosaurs were no larger than skinks. It's just that during fossilization their skeletons increased in size many-fold, by underground accretion. So far, no takers.
Why are all of you on the left sooo afraid of DJT. Is denying him a place on the ballot this cycle's version of "fortifying" an election?
If the last election hadn't been "fortified", Trump would be nearing the end of his second term and been gone from the stage.
Why are you supporting someone who tried to steal an election?
Why are you supporting someone who did?
Asked and answered. The Big Lie lives on.
[Unthreaded response to @Brett Bellmore, above]
1. This is about understanding the original purpose and meaning of the 14th Amendment. If it wasn’t to cover “insurrectionists” (as differentiated from persons convicted of insurrection in a criminal court), it could never have prevented (by itself) Civil War insurrectionists from holding office. And it would never have been necessary for Congress to pass the Ammesty Act of 1872, under which, “all political disabilities imposed by the third section of the fourteenth article of amendments of the Constitution of the United States are hereby removed from all persons whomsoever, except [listed exceptions]…”
It did not say, “all political disabilities imposed by the criminal conviction of such persons for the crimes mentioned in the third section of the fourteenth article of amendments of the Constitution of the United States.” The disabilities, in the eyes of 2/3 of the US Congress around the same time as the 14th Amendment was enacted, had been imposed by the Constitution, not by the courts.
2. What was the plan, in those other riots, to overthrow the government or install a new president? Was there a plan? (Obviously, not a successful plan, but any plan would probably do for this purpose.)
1. We can identify 3 distinct groups subject to Section 3:
a. Nominees to positions subject to nomination and confirmation. Section 3 can, trivially, be enforced in this case by the nominating and/or confirming body. Thus, no need for a trial.
b. People elected to Congress. Congress can refuse to seat them under it’s Article 1, Section 5 power to judge the qualifications of its members. This is, historically, how the Confederates were kept out of Congress, and Congress started doing it before the 14th amendment was sent to the states. As an exercise of that inherent power, it requires no trial.
c. Presidential candidates. Following this logic, who applies Section 3 to them? The Electors! Who ARE subject, themselves, to Section 3, so none of them are supposed to be themselves insurrectionists…
Now, suppose you, outside this scheme, essentially want a writ of mandamus demanding that somebody in a position to enforce Section 3 do so? You’d get it from a court, right? And how is the court supposed to determine the applicability of Section 3 to a person, given that the court hasn’t any inherent right to decide these matters?
By looking to see if they’ve been convicted of the relevant offense, I would say. Because the court has no basis other than guilt for imposing that mandate, and trials are how courts determine guilt.
2) I'd assume the plan was the usual revolutionary plan: We take action, and it snowballs. That IS how revolutions work, you know.
Following obviouslynotspams reasoning, the writers of the amendment did not consider a conviction a necessity.
So another course to get to court is exactly what is happening now,
which means if a state refuses to put traitortrump on the ballot, they go to court.
I personally think this Supreme court will more or less agree with you, however by that time it is possible traitortrump will officially be traitortrump and the point may be moot
Well, they didn't consider it a necessity for the positions they were actually dealing with, at least. But, remember: It was the Civil war! They didn't consider a lot of things necessary, like, oh, leaving opposition newspapers open, not jailing political opponents without trials, letting legislatures vote without soldiers pointing guns at them telling them how to vote...
Really, at some point you have to face the reality of the situation back then: The winning side in a war was doing to the losing side whatever the hell they wanted, and making up excuses afterwards. That's no precedent to follow today, because The NeverTrumpers didn't just win a civil war, and Trump's supporters aren't facing a military firing squad if they don't knuckle under.
They also do not seem to realize the havoc that can be brought about by Sec of State eliminating candidates because they simply do not like them.
If TX removed Biden for his demonstrated corruption --- I'd oppose that because it is not the way to handle it.
But if CO or other states do it to Trump, well, them's the new rules.
exaggerating serves no purpose
traitortrumps followers are facing consequences up to 22 years in prison, we don't do firing squads
My personal opinion is that trump is guilty, should be found so, sentenced, and pardoned
We don't put our 'leaders' in prison, it is a bad look.
We do put our politicians in prison, where Menendez belongs and Mavroules and many others have been
"and pardoned"
For some reason, I just don't believe you. Besides if he is convicted in Georgia, there is no pardon for at least 5 years.
House arrest. Somewhere palatial, too.
For some reason, I just don’t believe you.
He's a rando on the Internet. He doesn't have much of a posting history on VC. I don't see what kind of information you have to accuse him of bad faith.
I disagree with him on a number of levels, but I take him at his word.
We don't do firing squads yet. I wouldn't bet on it not being a thing a decade from now, things are moving faster and faster.
We do firing squads. https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Broadcast/convicted-killer-ronnie-lee-gardner-executed-utah/story?id=10949786
I meant for political enemies.
The only plausible route to firing squads for political enemies in the next 10 years would be for Trump to regain power and follow through on his thread to terminate "all rules, regulations and articles, even those found in the Constitution."
I can't believe any patriotic American is remotely considering voting for this guy.
There is no constitutional amendment prohibiting corrupt officials from office[could anyone qualify...sorry]
There is zero evidence of Biden corruption, period, so there is that
traitortrump we have on video proving his guilt
"There is zero evidence of Biden corruption, period, so there is that"
Wow, you actually believe that. That is humorous.
"traitortrump we have on video proving his guilt"
Biden is on video admitting he committed an illegal quid pro quo.
‘an illegal quid pro quo.’
Only if you lie about it. A lot. Loudly.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm deleted
That presumes that they have a federal duty to put him on the ballot. There's no reason a state can't exclude people from consideration when choosing a president.
They would have to have a reason for excluding someone, and that reason would be susceptible to challenge under e.g. equal protection if Bush v Gore is to be believed.
A state couldn't just refuse to put women or Black people (or men or white people) on the ballot for example. Or Republicans. Or people "too old to be President."
"A state couldn’t just refuse to put women or Black people (or men or white people) on the ballot for example."
It is held that they also couldn't do that for mayor.
But they can have minimum and maximum ages for mayor. And they could say that anyone who has ever committed such and such an act is excluded. Why can't they do so for president?
They probably could. Just saying there are some reasons why they can’t exclude people.
I suspect if they said they were excluding Trump because of Section 3, that would present a federal question which SCOTUS would take up.
If they had their own independent "no insurrectionists" law then the state could define how it worked.
In all that waffle you still managed to ignore the Amnesty Act of 1872 entirely! I wonder why...
What the hell did Congress think it was doing when it, by at least a 2/3 majority of both the House and the Senate, determined that “all political disabilities imposed by the third section of the fourteenth article of amendments of the Constitution of the United States are hereby removed from all persons whomsoever, except [listed exceptions]…”
Congress did this, obviously, because it was the 14th Amendment which had imposed those political disabilities on those persons, not some nominating or confirming body, not some legislative body and not some criminal court. The 14th Amendment imposed them and the 14th Amendment empowered Congress to remove them.
We do still need to understand whether Trump's actions met the constitutional standard for "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof", and ultimately, it would be a court which does that. A court will decide if Trump's involvement in the J6 riots, the fake electors scheme and other matters constituted an "insurrection" for purposes of the 14th Amendment. A Court might also be called upon to determine if Trump's actions constituted "aid or comfort to the enemies" of the Constitution (you don't really believe there needs to be an "aid or comfort" conviction, do you, Brett?)
I don't assume such courts would decide in the affirmative, but it's possible. My preference, as stated, is that the 14th Amendment issue be kicked into touch, and Trump's numerous criminal trials continue until their conclusion.
There was no plan. At least a few rioters had plans, but there was not "grand plan". Many, possibly most instances of civil disturbance are spontaneous.
And Trump had planned to go down to the capitol personally. He was physically prevented by secret service agents. Was he negligently culpable for failing to take sufficient action over the next couple of hours? Very likely. But that doesn't make him an insurrectionist, and it is reasonably doubtful (perhaps highly doubtful) that it doesn't amount to 'aid or comfort'.
"At least a few rioters had plans, but there was not “grand plan”."
The Proud Boys just got convicted for having that "grand plan". Even if it did originate with the FBI, they had one.
That's actually my point: You can't, legally, pin that riot on Trump, because it was planned by others, in advance, and begun by them while he was still speaking. Short of demonstrating that he directed them to do it, he's not legally responsible for it.
can’t, legally, pin that riot on Trump, because it was planned by others
The first clause does not follow from the second.
You don't like the law of conspiracy, but it is a thing that exists; don't pretend it does not.
Look, you may think it was clever leaving out, "Short of demonstrating that he directed them to do it", but it wasn't even the slightest bit clever.
Trump doesn't actually have to be the "leader" of the conspiracy to be guilty of participating in a criminal conspiracy.
But you have to at least have some evidence that he was part of it. I've never seen a scrap of evidence that Trump had anything legally relevant to do with the Proud Boys' break in.
But I guess that's part of Somin's "obvious", right?
There is evidence he was part of it. Don't you claim to heave read the DC indictment?!
You cry there are no criminal charges, and then ignore the ones that are right there.
Famously he told them to stand back and stand by. The march from the rally to the Capitol was kept under wraps (to avoid a possible countermarch) but plenty of right-wing militia types knew to expect it. There was plenty of contact between Trump allies and such groups. There was plenty of intelligence about attacks on the Capitol that should have reached Trump; that Trump continued and encouraged it dwarfs any failures of George W. Bush before 9/11 or FDR before Pearl Harbor.
After five decades of Republicans practicing "plausible deniability", there would never be tapes of Trump giving detailed deployment orders. Of course it's all "who will rid me of this troublesome
priestelection loss?"Go read the January 6th committee report; the evidence is there.
I’ve never seen a scrap of evidence that Vito Corleone had anything to do with the horse’s head that turned up in Jack Woltz’s bed. All the Don did was have Tom Hagen ask Woltz for a favor.
Guess what, Brett? Inferring intent and participation from the totality of circumstances is a thing in law, as it is in gangster movies.
The Jan 6 speech wasn't like the first time it had come up. He'd been tweeting about Jan 6 for weeks.
I knew what that meant, even at the time. Didn't you?
Some Saturday morning humor for all of you angry people:
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/09/the-week-in-pictures-take-a-flyer-edition.php
Thanks - I needed that!
Weekly feature on that site every Saturday.
These would be even funnier if they skewered everyone equally. Anybody who wants to rule somebody else deserves a good roasting, IMHO.
They'd be even funnier if they were funny. About one out of twenty evinced the mildest of smirks. I want my 2 minutes back.
I hope I live long enough to see Ilya Somin and all the rest of the left-wing scum at the Volokh Conspiracy deported.
Were you hoping to live long enough to observe UCLA improve its campus by offloading some bigot-hugging, obsolete, antisocial clingers?
We don't.
Your belief that Ilya is left wing would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetically detached from reality.
Ilya, have you considered therapy for your obsession over Trump?
Does Prof. Somin post about Trump as often as Prof. Volokh uses a vile racial slur?
. . . as often as Prof. Volokh posts about transgenders?
. . . as often as Prof. Volokh posts about white grievance and Black crime?
. . . as often as Prof. Volokh posts about drag queens, Muslims, or lesbians?
Any thoughts about Prof. Bernstein's posting pattern? Mr. Kopel's? Prof. Kontorovich's (back in the day, before he began to concentrate of cutting Israel's ties to the United States)? Prof. Blackman's?
Do you recommend therapy for Prof. Volokh? For any of the other Conspirators?
Why a libertarian such as Prof. Somin associates with the Conspiracy and its carefully cultivated class of conservative/faux libertarian commenters is beyond me.
Better than associating with a convicted Trud Burglar and mediocre Foo-Bawl Coach
So many words. So little sense.
I'm sure we all appreciate your economy.
Oh, and have I commented about this?
"Whatever Trump and the January 6 rioters might have subjectively believed, objectively they were trying to use force and fraud to overthrow the duly elected president and replace him with the man he had defeated."
Objectively he's guilty. Objectively! I guess that's why convicting him in a criminal trial after charging him with the actual crime isn't necessary: Objective guilt renders all that procedure redundant.
And he is teaching the future of the US legal system. Nothing to worry about with that.
We definitely should pull all funding of legal education if this is what is being churned out.
Objectively, this is effort #357 to use the power of government against a political opponent. Having failed to convince his supporters he needed to go (as Clinton’s also declined to do), twice, they say to hell with it! Let’s cancel him from the election without the support of his supporters! They were just gonna vote for him anyway, and we need to save democracy!
“We are saving democracy! We aren’t being a historical first, embarrassing the US on the world stage, and Americans past and future, by using the power of government against a political opponent, like those South American and Middle East and Asian and African countries do. We’re better because we do it differently. Attempt #357 is an evolution of attempts to git ‘im! It's new on the world stage in that we say trust us, he needs to be jailed and off the ballot lest we lose, unlike those other corrupt countries that, ummm, do the same thing."
You call Hillary Clinton a felon based on exactly this reasoning, only based on sketchier facts. Hypocrite.
You want to take issue with the facts Prof. Somin believes, do that. But he’s saying actions are objective and trump any subjective intent in cases like insurrection.
Complaining that nothing is objective is the new GOP song. Baud wrecks it - facts must matter in cases of Constitution law. A bunch of people who are wrong do not matter. And cannot matter - if we are to survive as a republic indulging the violent and deluded cannot be our main thing.
I call Hillary a felon because it's obvious she committed felonies. And if you want to think it's equally obvious Trump did, fine.
But I don't propose to legally treat her as a felon without benefit of trial. And Somin DOES propose to treat Trump as guilty without a trial.
That's one hell of a big difference, don't you think?
You don't get to make up a legal standard and then assume everyone knows what you're talking about and agrees with you.
That's what you're doing in insisting Section 3 requires a criminal finding.
I've repeatedly explained my reasoning on that.
While we've repeatedly pointed out to you that it does not use the term "convicted of" or "guilty of" anywhere.
If they had wanted to define it as a crime and require conviction, the Constitution already has an example of that being done: Treason.
You, Mr. Originalist, cannot simply invent clauses and words that do not exist.
Sure he can. He doesn't accept, perceive, or process the reality-based world the way you do. Lots of that going around at this blog.
And my reasoning in no way relies on it using those words, so, so what? They, the very same people, had ALREADY defined it as a crime, BEFORE they wrote the 14th amendment! It would have been redundant to point out it was a crime they were talking about.
They'd made insurrection, rebellion, and aiding the nation's enemies, a crime, that carried the penalty of disqualification, several years earlier. Just as they'd enacted the 1865/6 Civil rights act.
The problem with both those laws was that they had no constitutional basis! That didn't matter while they were still on a war footing, because even if a court ruled against them, they just ignored it. But they knew they couldn't keep that up forever.
So they wrote the 14th amendment to render their earlier unconstitutional laws constitutional.
That's why Section 1 echoes the language of the 1865/6 Civil rights act, and Section 3 the 1862 Confiscation act.
The Confiscation act is, effectively, enabling legislation for Section 3, written before the amendment that was drafted to make that act legit.
You ignore the text, Bivens actions, and the operation of the same language in the 13A.
But what brought me in here was your rant about Somin using the word 'objectively' incorporates your personal take on the need for a criminal finding, and also pretends opinions about guilt are OK for Hillary but not for Trump.
I couldn't follow that until you explained how much of your 'is' statement contained hidden 'ought.'
In addition to you being wrong, this is bad posting process.
The point is that "objective" guilt doesn't mean a damn thing. Being convicted is what matters. But Somin wants objective guilt, which is to say, guilt as perceived by him, to legally matter.
I say, go through the legal process, a trial, or give it up.
The Constitution is law. If the legal process laid down in the Constitution differs from that enacted by Congress, the Constitution wins. It's not even a maybe.
This argument about requiring conviction is a real loser. It's got zero traction outside of these desperate comment threads by no-nothings. (I include myself in that category, it's not intended to be an insult, just a fact.)
Plus there are so many better arguments.
1. Section 3 doesn't apply to presidents.
2. Interpreted in context, Jan 6 isn't the sort of "insurrection or rebellion" contemplated by Section 3.
3. Trump didn't "engage" in the Jan 6 insurrection.
Anyway... what's really dumb about all this is that Republicans should be so lucky as to have Trump removed from the ballot. They might win! I wish you lot would find a way to get Biden off the ballot too. Maybe someone can come up with an argument for why there's an implicit age limit for presidential candidates... some common law rule from thousands of years ago. Everyone would be totally happy to just go along with it, if someone could make an even slightly plausible case.
The point is that “objective” guilt doesn’t mean a damn thing. Being convicted is what matters.
Actually, objective reality matters above and beyond the law.
Obviously guilty is good except when obviously guilty is bad?
Somin does not propose to treat Trump as guilty of the crime of insurrection.
If Section 3 said "You can't be president if you mishandle classified emails" I'm 100% sure you'd think it applied to Clinton without a conviction.
No, I'd call for her to be prosecuted for it, because I think it would have been a slam dunk conviction once you got past her shield of prosecutorial discretion.
Just as you don't want to have to prosecute Trump for insurrection, because you know he'd probably end up acquitted, on account of your case for him being guilty of it being a joke.
'a slam dunk conviction'
Remember this is for some emails classified after they were sent. But Trump's mishandling of classified documents is fine.
Riddle me this Mr. Somin:
How can a sitting president be accused of "insurrection" against the government when, on January 6, 2021, he was still head of state?
Mine is not a flip or idle question. Only after a new president would a duly sworn in on January 20, 2021 could Trump be (however untenably) be accused of fomenting insurrection against the government. Until that moment, Trump was the government.
Baude and Paulsen argue insurrection is more than trying to bring down the government (which as you noted Trump can't do to himself). Instead, they define it as the "concerted, forcible resistance to the authority of government to execute the laws in at least some significant respect."
But even under a tighter definition, blocking the peaceful transition of power could be considered insurrection in addition to an attempt to bring down the government.
But there is no evidence that the peaceful transfer of power was even blocked, given that it happened.
Even less evidence (namely none) that Trump tried to do that.
Failed insurrections are still insurrections.
In fact, failed insurrections are the only kind that Section 3 could possibly be referring to, since a successful insurrection would obviously not hold itself accountable to Section 3 lol.
The fake electors, the pressure on state officials not to certify or withdraw certification (by eliminating "illegal" votes), the pressure on the DoJ to announce there was fraud, and the pressure on Pence to not accept the results all were attempts to steal the election (whether or not Trump believed he won), and thus block the peaceful transfer of power.
Insurrection against the constitution, not the president. "L'État, c'est moi" is for kings, not our republic.
Look up the term "self-coup" and that will answer your idea that Trump couldn't have been trying to overthrow the government.
I agree, yours is a valid question.
The answer probably depends on what the Supreme Court decides the meaning of "insurrection" is. If they draw it narrowly, as you have, then Trump would not suffer the disability called for by Section 3. But if they draw it broadly, as Baude and Paulsen have, then he would be barred by the Constitution from "hold[ing] any office, civil or military, under the United States".
Instead of re-electing Trump, let’s elect Jefferson Davis. Art. 3 is no obstacle for *him.* Congress restored his political rights in 1978, backdating the restoration of rights to Christmas 1868.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-92/pdf/STATUTE-92-Pg1304.pdf
And guess who was in the Senate almost half a century ago and voted to restore Davis' civil rights?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/biden-voted-to-restore-citizenship-to-confederate-president-jefferson-davis
Not just Jefferson Davis, but Robert E Lee as well; Senator Joe Biden did in fact vote to restore their citizenship (and political rights). Where is Congressman Clyburn on this? I rather suspect they'll never be asked if there is a more than just a whiff of hypocrisy here. Or, did Senator Biden 'evolve' on the way to being POTUS Biden (lol).
It is amusing.
Jefferson Davis was specifically excluded from an amnesty bill that restored citizenship to ex-Confederates that passed in 1876. The 1978 bill passed with no opposition. Also, it really shouldn't have been necessary, as it should not be possible to remove citizenship from someone involuntarily. (Though Davis died not wanting his citizenship restored.)
Section 3 does not remove citizenship, so restoring it to Jefferson Davis did nothing to his disqualification under Section 3
You can lose American citizenship by taking public office or military service in a foreign nation, which might fall under voluntarily renouncing citizenship and would seem to be what Jefferson Davis thought he was doing. It might have been awkward during Reconstruction to give any recognition of the Confederacy as a foreign nation, though.
Removing sanctions against someone a century later is at most symbolic, unlike doing anything similar with current threats to the country. The United States has done entirely too much to forgive Confederate secessionists, and should not make the same mistake with MAGA coup plotters.
Hm. Well, first of all, secession clearly isn't prohibited by the Constitution. And that means it's allowed. The limitations on powers of the States are right there in Article 1, Section 10. There is no mention of secession of course, because not in a million years would the Constitution have been adopted with such a clause in there, nor would the founders have considered including it. If you believe otherwise you're an idiot.
With that said, it seems correct that having a perceived Constitutional grievance doesn't excuse one from engaging in insurrection or rebellion as contemplated by the 14th amendment (which was never Constitutionally ratified). Heck, even a legitimate, actual Constitutional grievance wouldn't excuse that, it seems to me. So think I agree somewhat - this is not the reason that the fanny pack-toting, unarmed except with camera phones, mostly peaceful protest wasn't an "insurrection."
secession clearly isn’t prohibited by the Constitution. And that means it’s allowed. Your secession boner continues to mark you as one of the more out-there posters on this site.
the fanny pack-toting, unarmed except with camera phones, mostly peaceful protest wasn’t an “insurrection.” Pathetic denialism.
There was an insurrection. It was violent. Other people not being violent doesn't change that.
So think I agree somewhat – this is not the reason that the fanny pack-toting, unarmed except with camera phones, mostly peaceful protest wasn’t an “insurrection.”
I'll always remember your record of defending BLM protests against claims of violence by pointing out how the protesters were mostly peaceful.
The "14th Amendment was never ratified" defence sounds a bit desperate, but I'm sure Trump's elite team of lawyers will give it the hearing it deserves.
FYI, the European Union has just such a "secession" clause, recently used to tragic/farcical effect by the United Kingdom. It didn't seem to cause a civil war. Maybe the Constitution should be amended to include such a sensible provision?
"recently used to tragic/farcical effect by the United Kingdom."
I'm kind of missing the tragic part of that. The farcical part, too.
Here's some economic data.
Brexit was January, 2020. The UK suffered a slight economic decline from 2018-2020, which it had totally recovered from, and then some, by 2021. If there was a tragedy there, I'm not seeing it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64450882
If you can't see the farcical part, then maybe the farce is with you.
So the voters of the UK decided a conjectured 4% economic hit was a reasonable price to pay for regaining their independence. Still not seeing the farce or tragedy here.
I'll grant that opponents of Brexit within the UK government would like to turn Brexit into a farce, by making it an exit only in name.
At the time of the vote, the voters were told a lot of lies, and now Brexit is quite unpopular. No surprise that Boris Johnson was analogized with Trump. Too bad for the UK that Brexit is harder to reverse from than either Trump or Johnson.
Lol, what "opponents of Brexit within the UK government"? The current government was formed by Boris Johnson after the last parliamentary election in late 2019--by which time nearly all the "opponents of Brexit" within the Tory party had long been purged and/or deselected. Thanks for the laugh, though.
The tragedy is evident in the polls, and in the senseless loss of European rights for young people and future generations.
The farce is what the UK got for its money (the cost of Brexit, which Brexiteers had, of course, insisted would be an economic benefit, not a cost).
The EU is not a country.
The EU isn't a country in the same way the US wasn't a country at the time of the Civil war: It's a federation of sovereign states that's trying to BECOME a unitary state, with some degree of pushback from those sovereign states.
The United States was a country from at least the moment that the Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution. There were no longer any "sovereign states." They gave up any pretense at sovereignty when they ratified the document.
Fair point. Civil war would certainly have been justified otherwise...
"The “14th Amendment was never ratified” defence sounds a bit desperate"
It's not a defense. The 14th amendments is part of our Constitutional law in most senses. I only mention it as part tangential interesting factoid, part useful background context for understanding the amendment.
I had similar thoughts the first time I heard this mentioned, so I understand your reaction, but I've come around to thinking it's a fact that bears repeating.
WASHINGTON (AP) — A military veteran who stormed the U.S. Capitol with a loaded pistol, metal-plated body armor and a gas mask was sentenced on Wednesday to seven years in prison, one of the longest among hundreds of Jan. 6 riot cases.
Uh oh, Life of Brian is going to suddenly appear and accuse me of ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric probably!
Ah, so you tuck tail and run from the thread where you're in trouble, and then just start a new one? Cute!
Sadly I can't credit you with that particular piece of inflammatory rhetoric, taking as true the AP byline you pasted in. But we should make super clear for the audience you're trying to build back up here that even the frothiest of frothy accounts of Mr. Alberts' conduct have to tie themselves in pretzel knots with tortured wording to try to make it sound like the gun was used during the Jan. 6 riot, when in fact he never removed it from its concealed holster and nobody even knew he had it until he was elsewhere in DC that night.
Such a low-single-digit number of isolated one-off people like this one -- where no civilians whatsoever actually drew or even showed a gun at the Capitol -- are the sort of thing you have to try to milk to conjure up the notion of an "armed insurrection."
Really sad that's the sort of disingenuous tactics you're reduced to in order to keep telling that sort of patently ridiculous and unsupportable story.
I was totally right lol! You are a really easy sap you know.
Secession — or at least unilateral secession — is absolutely clearly prohibited by the Constitution, and even if it weren’t, that would not mean it was allowed.
OK, first, if secession were absolutely clearly prohibited by the Constitution, you'd be able to cite the text prohibiting it. Have at it.
Secondly, the 10th amendment was adopted specifically to prohibit "even if it weren't" reasoning.
There are several such provisions, but the most obvious one is the Supremacy Clause. It definitionally says that any attempt to secede is void ab initio.
One wonders whether Ilya would qualify all protestors as insurrectionists - or perhaps only the marginally right-wing ones?
Would Ilya call BLM protestors-who set buildings and police cars on fire- insurrectionists, and disqualify hundreds of thousands of those activists from election? Perhaps Ilya would disqualify Handsmaid protestors when they sneak in to proceedings?
We will never know. All we will know is that Ilya, despite airing himself as a disinterested middle ground libertarian, only punches Right.
I can’t speak for him, but hopefully he would differentiate between violent protests which are part of a conspiracy to overthrow the government or Constitution, and violent protests which are not.
I’d say that yours was a singularly absurd equivalence, but I see your line of reasoning is shared with several others.
Silly question here but are we going to convict any alleged insurrectionists before declaring them ineligible to run for Federal office?
Or are we descending into government by edict ?
Criminal conviction for insurrection is always an option, as is criminal conviction for "giving aid and comfort" (although the latter, perhaps, not so much). Being in prison would tend to make serving in office ineffective if not impossible. But, it is difficult to prove the crime of insurrection, and such a conviction would require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Disqualification from serving as an officer of the United States, however, is a non-punitive remedy which has the benefit of being specified in the 14th Amendment, and therefore does not require a criminal conviction.