The Volokh Conspiracy
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District Court in Florida Concludes Voters Lack Standing to Challenge Trump's Eligibility
A lawsuit to keep Donald Trump off the Florida primary ballot fails.
On Thursday, a federal district court in Florida concluded that voters lack standing to challenge Donald Trump's eligibility to appear on the Republican primary ballot. The plaintiffs had sought to advance the claim that Trump is ineligible to serve as President under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment due to his conduct on and around January 6. As I noted here, such claims face many obstacles, of which Article III standing is but one.
From the brief order dismissing the case:
Here, Plaintiffs lack standing to challenge Defendant's qualifications for seeking the Presidency, as the injuries alleged are not cognizable and not particular to them. Plaintiffs allege that they have standing because Plaintiff Caplan has actively participated in the last twelve Presidential elections, voted for both Republicans and Democrats, is a Florida resident and United States citizen, is an attorney and member of various courts, and has never been sanctioned. DE 1 at 2. Plaintiffs further allege that Plaintiff Butin is a Florida resident and United States citizen and Plaintiff Strianese is a Nevada resident and United States citizen. Id. Plaintiffs allege they will suffer injury if Defendant is allowed to run for President and prevail when he could be disqualified or removed from office. Id. at 2-3. However, an individual citizen does not have standing to challenge whether another individual is qualified to hold public office. See, e.g., Kerchner, 612 F.3d at 207; Berg v. Obama, 586 F.3d 234, 239 (3d Cir. 2009).
In Berg, the plaintiff, an attorney representing himself, filed a complaint seeking declaratory and injunctive relief in district court before the 2008 Presidential election, alleging that then-candidate Barack Obama was ineligible to run for President because he was not a "natural born citizen" within the meaning of Article II. Berg, 586 F.3d at 237. The district court observed that "[s]tanding has been a consistent barrier to lower courts hearing generalized, undifferentiated claims by voters and citizens," and noted various cases in which citizens attempted to challenge a Presidential candidate's eligibility for office or other governmental actions but lacked standing. . . . The court concluded that an alleged injury "stemming from a presidential candidate's failure to satisfy the eligibility requirements of the Natural Born Citizen Clause is not concrete or particularized enough to constitute an injury in fact sufficient to satisfy Article III standing." Berg, 574 F. Supp. 2d at 518.
The Third Circuit affirmed the district court's rulings in Berg and reiterated that the plaintiff "suffered no injury particularized to him" and, therefore, lacked standing. Berg, 586 F.3d at 239. Courts throughout the United States have uniformly concluded that citizens do not have standing to bring lawsuits challenging a candidate's eligibility for national office. See, e.g., Drake v. Obama, 664 F.3d 774, 778, 780-84 (9th Cir. 2011) (group of military personnel, state representatives, political candidates, and individual citizens did not have standing to challenge President Obama's eligibility to hold office); Chapman v. Obama, 719 F. App'x 13 (D.C. Cir. 2018) (per curiam) ("The district court correctly concluded that appellant lacked standing to challenge President Barack Obama's qualifications for holding office."); . . .
Further, at least two courts have concluded that citizens attempting to disqualify individuals from participating in elections or from holding office based on the January 6, 2021 events at the United States Capitol lacked standing. See, e.g., Stencil v. Johnson, 605 F. Supp. 3d 1109 (E.D. Wis. 2022). In Stencil, the plaintiffs sought a declaratory judgment that three members of Wisconsin's Congressional delegation were ineligible to serve under the Fourteenth Amendment because their participation in the January 6 attack constituted an insurrection against the United States. Id. at 111213. Among other things, the court determined that the plaintiffs lacked standing and explained that "[e]very citizen and voter could claim to have suffered the same injury as the plaintiffs here, which amounts to nothing more than engaging in political advocacy against candidates for office or issue advocacy against the views the candidates hold. The relief that the plaintiffs seek would no more directly and tangibly benefit them than it would the public at large." Id. at 1117. . . .
Plaintiffs in this case similarly lack standing and, thus, this Court lacks jurisdiction. Accordingly, the Court exercises its discretion under the Declaratory Judgment Act, along with its obligation to examine its own jurisdiction, to dismiss this case.
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A Trump-related development this blog finds noteworthy?
Should we assume John Eastman is not involved?
There would be no Trump if it wasn’t for your unholy obsession.
The good thing about working for the government is you can track people down.
Did you know "Arthur" is a trust fund baby? Born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Lives off of his granddaddies millions and has never done a days work in his life.
Why am I not surprised?
These lying dumbasses are your target audience, Volokh Conspirators . . . which says everything about right-wing law professors that any strong law school's faculty hiring committee should ever want or need to know.
You're as soft and soy as a Washington Post reporter. It's not a stretch to believe that you're a deadbeat living off of family money.
It’s a huge stretch to believe some anonymous commenter who claims to work for the government is telling the truth when he claims to know anything at all about another anonymous commenter. If you believe Vandalia then I’ve got some really great investment opportunities for you we must talk about.
The Bible says that the simple believe every word. They sure do.
I refuse the believe a government employee of this country is capable of gossiping in such a way.
Try reading what Vidalia wrote with a critical eye. Suppose you were going to cross-examine him; what questions would you ask, and how many of those questions would you have to ask before his story completely fell apart?
It’s not that government employees don’t misbehave. It’s that his story insults our intelligence.
Not only am I not (and I have never been) a federal employee (as another clinger alleged), but I have never inherited a cent. Didn't take a cent from my parents past the age of 17. I have worked since the age of 10 and was mostly financially independent from roughly the age of 15.
The right-wing assholes who don't like my descriptions of bigoted, poorly educated, obsolete clingers label me a pedophile, call for my death (in myriad detailed ways), claim I am Jerry Sandusky, assert I am a federal employee, say I am not a lawyer, doubt I was a partner at a large firm, claim I am a trust fund baby (rather than someone who has pulled more than his own weight his entire life). These conservative dumbasses resent me and the others who have stomped them in the culture war (and who will preside over America as the right-wing losers are replaced). Victory makes me content.
On top of all that you think you are immortal? Doubt you'll live long enough to see what you're predicting and rooting for.
Washington Post reporters will help dig, then piss on, the graves of conservatives' political aspirations. They are among the culture war's victors.
Which really seems to aggravate the wingnuts who operate and follow this blog.
Too soon. The left doesn't want a ruling too early on this when there is enough time for it to get to the SCOTUS where it would likely be ruled that short of an actual conviction of insurrection or a vote of Congress that the 14th Amendment doesn't apply.
SCOTUS could also rule that since the POTUS is not listed among the people who would be ineligible that it doesn't apply to a POTUS.
No what these people want is for Trump to be ruled ineligible just before ballots are printed and then they could argue that it was too late to print new ballots even if SCOTUS overturned such a ruling.
Now, now, the left are a mixed bag. Sure, some of them want to wait until the last minute, so that it's too late for whatever they do to be effectively overturned.
But there are others who are fine with attacking early, because they can always resort to other measures later in the game if the first approach is defeated.
Really, all they agree on in the end is that, no matter who the Republican nominee is, they have to be defeated by any means necessary.
And thus, all outcomes may be put at the feet of leftists pulling the strings.
It seems to me that even if they had standing — which I agree they do not — that their lawsuit would not be ripe. The 14th amendment speaks to eligibility to hold office, not eligibility to run in a primary. If Trump doesn't win the nomination, the suit would be moot.
So when would the case be ripe? After he wins the state's primary? After he is formally nominated by the party? After the general election? After electors cast their ballots? After January 6, 2025?
The confusing factor there is that constitutionally, you aren't voting directly for President. You are voting for an elector, who is usually pledged to a particular candidate. I wonder if these types of challenges brought by someone with standing would fail because of that. Unless the elector was involved in insurrection.
If a state's election laws allowed the officials responsible for preparing ballots to refuse to put an insurrectionist on the ballot (however they judge that), then they would likely also allow them to refuse electors pledged to such a candidate. But maybe the insurrectionist candidate could evade being blocked from the ballot by the technicality that the electors are eligible (not insurrectionists) even though they will vote for a disqualified candidate.
Since the amendment says they cannot hold office and nothing about being available to be voted for, the likely place disqualification would happen is Congress; a Representative and a Senator would object, the House and Senate would vote on the objection, and the electoral votes from a state won by that candidate could be rejected, as provided for by the Electoral Count Act. Section 5 gives Congress the power to enforce the other sections by appropriate legislation, which would appear to be the Electoral Count Act. Courts would probably not intrude on that political process.
In the only non-Confederate example of a federal official being excluded pursuant to Section 3, it was the House who disqualified Victor Berger.
He was elected to the House, so this seems obvious.
Article I, Section 5.
And only AFTER he was convicted of espionage. Once the conviction was overturned, they seated him.
Only after he won a subsequent election. Of course, it seems more probable that Trump will not be convicted than that his convictions will be overturned, so that precedent is unlikely to be relevant.
"...they would likely also allow them to refuse electors pledged to such a candidate..."
Perhaps if there is a separate state law about disqualification based on insurrection. But does 14A section 3 apply to presidential electors?
Yes, if they had previously taken an oath to support the Constitution as described in the amendment.
Ha. I had a feeling I needed to go back and read section 3 again.
Does Florida have a faithless-elector law, requiring electors to vote for the candidate to whom they're pledged? If so, then would a Presidential hopeful's ineligibility to hold the office prevent the inclusion of his electors on the ballot?
Florida has a law requiring electors to pledge they will vote for a particular candidate, but does not have any enforcement mechanism. An elector who breaks that pledge is neither replaced nor punished.
I can't see how it would, even with such a law. Is the position of presidential elector covered by section 3?
Yes exactly! Probably why the president (and vice president) were left off that exclusion list. Because their elections are “special”, unlike all the others itemized. Of course, people can’t let go of their preference that the popular vote (with presidential candidate names on the ballot) does the electing. Nope, still the electors doing it. The only election mechanism in our entire system of national government (including when senators elected by legislatures) that is a 2-step process.
Maybe a bit naive of the 14A authors to assume that barring insurrectionist electors would effectively bar an insurrectionist candidate. Or perhaps more realistically, they thought Congress would deal with that when counting electoral votes.
Technically, the primary elections aren't even, nominally, government elections. They're party elections which the government has taken over running as a 'convenience' for the parties.
Of course, government being government, in a number of states they've leveraged this to tell parties who their nominees with be. And some states have even set up procedures that bypass parties and independent candidacies entirely, to restrict ballot access to what amounts to a single state endorsed party, in all but name. (Yeah, California, I'm looking at you.)
But the only constitutional elections are the general elections.
I'd say there's no application for Section 3 to the Presidency prior to, at the earliest, the EC voting. Sure, it could be applied to the electors themselves, but on the basis of their own disqualification, not disqualification of who they're pledged for.
The left, actually NeverTrumpers, because some are on the 'right', want to invoke Section 3 earlier, because if by chance Trump actually won the election, invoking Section 3 against him could be fairly dangerous. Even a lot of people who don't like Trump might take exception to Section 3 being used as a pretext to overturn the election result.
And that IS what we'd be talking about: Overturning an election on a basis that only one side thought was legitimate.
I have to agree about the primary. The primary is a party selection process and is not really governed by federal rules. As long as the party approves, even a non-eligible candidate should be able to run. A foreign-born naturalized citizen could run for nomination, even if they could not serve.
My thoughts exactly. The issue only becomes ripe if Trump wins the GOP nomination and and some government official takes an action to keep Trump off of a general election ballot. The only person with standing would be Trump.
Then the question is how fast the issue can be litigated up to SCOTUS since that will be the only body that can make a final ruling on what the terms of Sec. 3 of Amendment XIV mean.
But what happens if that government official goes all "Little Rock Arkansas 1958" and refuses to put Trump's name on the ballot? SCOTUS will have to rely on the state level executive branch to enforce the ruling. Failing that, it would be up to the Biden Administration executive branch officials. Does anyone think that Biden would send the 82nd Airborne Division in to enforce a SCOTUS ruling that Trump should be on the ballot the way that Eisenhower did to force Little Rock to allow African American students to attend a white school?
Plaintiffs in this case similarly lack standing and, thus, this Court lacks jurisdiction. Accordingly, the Court exercises its discretion under the Declaratory Judgment Act, along with its obligation to examine its own jurisdiction, to dismiss this case.
I agree that on this subject the court, and every federal court including the Supreme Court, lacks jurisdiction. If they did have jurisdiction, what could they do? Decree that a candidate cannot be disqualified under the 14A until convicted of insurrection beyond a reasonable doubt? That would amount to a court establishing a new qualification standard for who can become president—and at the same time frustrate the standard—no insurrectionists—announced by the sovereign People themselves in the 14th.
What seems peculiar to me—although I suppose lawyers may think it routine—is that the court took the case to determine standing, instead of simply announcing, "No, we can't hear the case at all, because we lack constitutional jurisdiction."
I don't understand. So, the court can't analyze whether it has jurisdiction to decide the case if it lacks jurisdiction? How does that work? How does it know whether it lacks jurisdiction before considering the papers?
KRB, because there can be nothing in any papers which affects this instance of jurisdiction. The sovereign People decreed a qualification for holding the office of president. On a question of that sort, no court has legitimate power to constrain the People, to substitute its own judgment for that of the People, or to just alter the text of the Constitution. The court in Florida should have been aware of that before it ever took up the question of standing. I argue that because the court lacked all jurisdiction, even its decision on standing is meaningless.
Yes, but that's because you’ve got bizarre fantasies about "sovereignty" and don't understand even the most basic things about the legal system. Or the directional arrow of time. The court can't rule on a case before it gets a case.
Even if we pretend that "sovereign People" had anything to do with anything, all that "sovereign people" did was lay down a general rule about eligibility. How does it apply to a specific person? Someone has to decide whether a particular person is eligible under the 14th amendment. The so-called sovereign People didn't say anything about Donald Trump specifically.
The “sovereign People” only get to act nationally in rare instances. Like state conventions to ratify a federal constitutional amendment. Or perhaps in similar conventions should we the people ever be faced with the opportunity to replace the U.S. Constitution, using the same ratification method as in 1787-88.
Whether any particular state gives its “sovereign People” citizens other opportunities to act in that capacity (popular referendum/initiative) has no bearing on their authority/power as granted under the U.S. Constitution. Make no mistake, while states presidential conduct elections pursuant to laws passed by state legislatures, they are only choosing electors as required by the U.S. Constitution in its grant of authority explicitly to the state legislatures. The Constitution constrains the people, and their elected representatives, all over the place.
Courts routinely interpret the announcements of the sovereign People, such as to decide what constitutes speech and what speech is beyond First Amendment protection; one person says "that's protected speech" and another says "that's not speech" or "that speech is not protected", and a court decides which is right. The Second Amendment is a significant example, in terms of what is a militia and what it means for it to be well-regulated and whether that actually has any effect. Some of the ways in which they determine the meaning of a law seem to me to be about the same value as reading tea leaves, but it's their job and they're going to do it (like Sigourney Weaver's character in Galaxy Quest).
They can't announce that they lack jurisdiction until they have determined that, and it is generally good that they explain why they came to a conclusion. The Supreme Court can refuse cases without explanation, but I don't think District Courts can.
Magister, I think this is much closer to an instance where the political questions doctrine applies. I found this online (Constitution Annotated) which explains it the way I see it:
The political question doctrine limits the ability of the federal courts to hear constitutional questions even where other justiciability requirements, such as standing, ripeness, and mootness, would otherwise be met. The Supreme Court has stated that, for purposes of Article III of the Constitution, no justiciable ‘controversy’ exists when parties seek adjudication of a political question. But the term political question is a legal term of art that on its face gives little indication of what sorts of cases the doctrine bars federal courts from deciding. The phrase, which has its origins in Chief Justice John Marshall’s landmark opinion in Marbury v. Madison, is potentially misleading, as federal courts deal with political issues, in the sense of controversial and government-related issues, all the time. Rather than referring generally to any such political issue, the term political question expresses the principle that some issues are either entrusted solely to another branch of government or are beyond the competence of the Judiciary to review. Finding that a matter qualifies as a political question divests federal courts of jurisdiction, meaning they lack the power to rule on the matter.
The original includes footnotes.
By the way, I agree that the term is potentially misleading. I think few lawyers today understand the founders’ view of sovereignty well enough to sort questions which apply to the practice of ordinary politics (potentially justiciable), from those which challenge sovereignty, and which are thus not justiciable. It is noteworthy that the distinction dates to Chief Justice Marshall, who had a better command of such questions than modern lawyers can usually show.
I think Lathrop doesn't understand the founders' views on pretty much anything.
This probably does not fall under the political question doctrine. But even if it does, courts do not dismiss cases that fall under the political question doctrine magically before the cases exist. They still have to hear the cases to decide whether the political question doctrine applies.
No; they would declare the meaning of the 14th amendment. Which is their job, assigned by the so-called sovereign people via Article III.
First, you're mistaken; the court doesn't lack constitutional jurisdiction for the reason you're arguing. Article III says "The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution," Whether Trump is qualified under the 14th amendment, of course, arises under the Constitution.
Second, not sure what you mean by "took the case." District courts do not "take" cases; people file cases with the court. The case was filed. The court can dismiss it if it determines that it doesn't have jurisdiction (which indeed is what it did, though not for the reason you mistakenly think), but it can't somehow magically travel back in time and un"take" the case after it makes that determination. (The Supreme Court does have discretion to decide what cases to accept. District courts do not.) A court can't "simply announce" anything. It has to hear the case and then decide whether it has jurisdiction. Here, it did that and then decided that it didn't.
First, you’re mistaken; the court doesn’t lack constitutional jurisdiction for the reason you’re arguing. Article III says “The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution,”
As noted in my excerpt above:
The Supreme Court has stated that, for purposes of Article III of the Constitution, no justiciable ‘controversy’ exists when parties seek adjudication of a political question.
In the meaning encompassed by Chief Justice Marshall, political questions are not cases in law or equity. They lie outside the scope of judicial jurisdiction.
I'll regret this but I'll bite. Which part of the political question doctrine do you think this is part of? The constitution doesn't entrust the determination to another branch of government on it's own terms and the case is asking to interpret the clause which is very much in the courts' competency.
mse326, I already said it. In original understanding, judicial jurisdiction has limits. Questions which touch on sovereign constitutive powers—the essence of the founding-era understanding of, “political questions,” lie outside those limits, and thus outside the court’s competency. It cannot be otherwise without granting the courts a power forbidden by the very definition of sovereignty—which ceases to exist if it suffers constraint.
So the court can do nothing if a non citizen or a 20 year old were to run for president?
Interpreting what the constitution says is not adding or substituting their judgement. It is litterally their job
Sigh. Just keep repeating your ignorance louder. Setting aside all of the other errors in your thinking I identified that you ignored, your pretense at being a historian and a lawyer ("No, I never claimed that. I just claimed to know more than historians and lawyers.") fails again. Did Marshall refuse to hear Marbury vs. Madison and refuse to issue an opinion? No. Because yelling "political question" does not keep a case out of court; it just provides an argument why the case should be dismissed.
Second, try reading your own quote: a political question is "either entrusted solely to another branch of government or are beyond the competence of the Judiciary to review." Neither of those tests is satisfied here. "Is Donald Trump an insurrectionist" was not entrusted solely to another branch of government, nor obviously is it beyond the competence of the Judiciary to review. If the 14th amendment had said, "Congress shall decide whether someone who engaged in insurrection may take office," then it would be a political question.¹ We saw that in Nixon v. U.S. (not that Nixon!), where impeached federal judge Walter Nixon wanted SCOTUS to tell the Senate what procedures it had to use for an impeachment trial. But SCOTUS said, no, that's a question textually committed to the Senate itself.
¹Note that the flip side is textually committed to Congress: Congress can remove the disability that was imposed by the 14th amendment. That decision is not reviewable by the courts. (But note further that if someone tried to file a suit about such a decision, it would be heard and rejected; the court would not say, "LALALALALALALAICAN'THEARYOU" as you wanted the court to do here.)
your pretense at being a historian and a lawyer (“No, I never claimed that. I just claimed to know more than historians and lawyers.”)
That is not only incoherent, it is also not an accurate summary. But I doubt accuracy was intended.
I have claimed to know more about history than most lawyers do. I have repeatedly disclaimed knowing as much about history as professional historians do. And I never claim to know more about the law than lawyers do, except in instances where the lawyers suffer confusion about differences between law and history—which admittedly come up all too often.
There are also a few instances regarding laws touching on specialized fields of expertise. Most folks, including me, have professional expertise in some field or other that most lawyers will not have. When it seems appropriate, I insist that it is one thing to know the law, and another thing to understand the law. To understand the law you have to know well the activities the law purports to govern. My experience has been that some lawyers make it a point of professional vanity to disagree with that, but not the better class of lawyers.
How would that look different from what happened here?
No implication would have been created that the courts suppose they can set themselves up as rivals for the People's sovereignty.
A court always has jurisdiction to decide whether it has jurisdiction. It’s pretty well-established law.
ReaderY, for all I know you could be right. But there is no legitimate basis for it, given the fact that courts explicitly lack jurisdiction to consider cases to constrain sovereignty. I think even you would acknowledge that courts can claim no jurisdiction over impeachments, for instance. Nor can any court claim legitimate jurisdiction to rewrite a provision of the Constitution—but we know they cheat on that one, right?
Indeed, SCOTUS itself said that — as I mentioned a few days ago in this thread — in Nixon v. U.S.! But do you know how it did? Nixon filed a suit, and the court heard it, and then ruled, "No, this is a non-justiciable question."
The case to watch is NH where the SoS has to make a decision and is punting to the lawyers, both his own (SoS) and the state AG.
Other than that, I suspect all other Fed courts will cite this case.
This is a rare Dr. Ed 2 post, even if I'm not certain that the New Hampshire case is the most important of the cases brought in other states.
This is an entire post without any of Dr. Ed 2's trademarks:
* obviously incorrect facts that are spectacularly wrong;
* calling for widespread killings with A-10s or anything else;
* gleefully fantasies about political killings or civil war;
* spouting bigotry;
* self-serving or self-pitying unlikely anecdote.
So, credit where credit is due. Whoever hacked Dr. Ed 2's account to make this post, kudos!
Wow, Trump really does play 4-d chess.
He must have promoted that birther nonsense to encourage lawsuits about Obama's eligibility so the standing argument would be fully litigated when his own access to the ballot would be challenged.
I think the writ of Quo Warranto used to be more widely available than it is now.
The more important question is whether Trump' activity rose to the level of an insurrection. At the time of passage of 14A, it was commonly understood to be an armed revolt of some sort. Jefferson davis Robert e lee, john brown, ie an actual insurrection. As wrong headed as it was, doesnt seem that trumps involvement in the vote count or his activities leading up to Jan 6 reached the level of insurrection as commonly understood, especially given the fact that he offered to send the National guard to capital hill for Jan 6 which was turned down by pelosi.
Yes, Joe, that's right. In the aftermath of the Civil War, when folks talked about participation in an "insurrection", they had 4 years of experience in mind: Fort Sumpter, First and Second Bull Run, Gettysburg, The Wilderness, etc., etc. Not an unruly but UNARMED demonstration.
Why do you keep lying about insurrectionists not having guns, let alone the many other kinds of weapons they employed?
Because they're delusional, disaffected, lying, worthless right-wing culture war debris.
God, stfu. They didn't have weapons, unless suddenly cheap aluminum toy flagpoles now count as deadly weapons.
Some of them had guns. Many brought other weapons and attacked police with them. Some of those attacks were deadly, including one by a metal pole thrown like a javelin - probably heavier than the flagpoles you describe. What motivates you to post such pathetic lies?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/jan-6-rioter-charged-police-carrying-gun-sentenced-7-years-rcna94940
Except that the only people who injured anyone with a gun that day was a Capital Police officer who shot and killed the unarmed Ashley Babbitt. Not a single LEO was shot at or hit by gunfire by a protester that day. And while the police killed several protesters, the protesters killed no police (stories to the contrary were quickly debbunked).
The law enforcement personnel were doing the right thing. Those who were fighting them and attacking our Capitol were disgusting criminals.
Some people miss -- or misunderstand -- that important distinction.
The judges who are sentencing the violent* insurrectionists to five-, ten-, and fifteen-year terms of incarceration are often being lenient but they uniformly appear to recognize the important distinction.
*Well, the mob was violent on January 6. In court, they have become tearful and obedient.
DC police officer Jeffrey Smith, killed as the result of injuries sustained in the line of duty on January 6th, inflicted by some of the people you think are so awesome.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/january-6-dc-police-jeffrey-smith-riots-suicide/
That there were few guns present is a testament to the effectiveness of Washington DC’s gun laws; among others, Oath Keepers had a huge cache of weapons in Virginia less than eight miles away. That the insurrectionists were thwarted before they could find Pence or Pelosi or any of the other people they wanted to kill is a tribute to the law enforcement personnel who defended the Capitol.
The stated reason for the suicide due to injuries suffered on Jan 6 seems dubious - ie lacks credibility
Given the garbage you routinely post, it would be amazing that you could call anything dubious or lacking in credibility. But it's actually not amazing if your sole standard is whether it supports your political views.
A guy commits suicide 9 days after incurring relatively minor injuries and those minor injuries are the direct cause of suicide – either you are peddling garbage or you are extremely gullible since it fits your political agenda – Suicide is the result of severe depression most often lasting several years. Depression severe enough to result in suicide isnt going to manifest itself from scratch in just 9 days. You need a grip on reality.
Gullible with a political agenda is a good description of your belief
Read the linked article. He changed completely after January 6th, and that would indicate not ongoing depression but rather changes caused by the injuries he suffered that day. Blaming a victim to excuse criminals who share your political motivation is all you have.
(Also, suicide is not exclusively the result of ongoing depression.
Mag - you are demonstrating your extreme gullibility. Suicide under those conditions is very rare. Your partisan bias is overriding basic critical thinking skills. Granted the article makes the claim , though it remains highly unlikely
That rarity just makes it all the more horrifying, like your defense of the violent insurrectionists.
There's that medical expertise of Joe_dallas rearing its head again!
Your arguments are really not convincing me.
If you're going to say someone is not unarmed because they own guns which are currently 7 miles away, that is a very strange definition of "unarmed".
If someone gets injured and then nine days later commits suicide, and you say those injuries are the sole and direct cause of death, then you're either incompetent or you have an agenda.
Without Washington D.C. gun laws, the Oath Keepers would have had their guns in Washington D.C. The Oath Keepers leader regretted that they did not bring rifles.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/oath-keepers-leader-regretted-not-guns-jan-6-prosecutors-say-seditious-rcna50244
The Oath Keepers planned for bringing those weapons on short notice. Another insurrectionist had a truck load of weapons within half a mile. But, as the previous linked article explains, there are insurrectionists known to have had guns but we don't know how many guns were possessed by other people who were not detained at the Capitol.
That my arguments do not convince you does not reflect on their quality, but rather to your own agenda.
All I'm seeing from that statement is that they did not, in fact, have those rifles present. Regretting being unarmed does not retroactively make you armed. If I rob the nearest bank I won't be charged with *armed* robbery if I leave my guns in a van a half mile away, even if I later say that I should have brought them. And while I'm sure some were armed with guns, to my knowledge none of them *used* those guns.
I was actually referring to the agenda of those who made the decision to classify the death that way, not yours. But what do you imagine my agenda to be?
Because they were outgunned. "Fix it right then and there" would have meant using those guns. A triumph for gun laws in DC. Your agenda is clearly to defend the indefensible actions of violent insurrectionists - you're doing it right here.
If you don't celebrate the lengthy prison sentences imposed on the insurrectionists, you are a worthless, deplorable, un-American right-wing dumbass who deserves the stomping you are taking at the hands of your betters.
You also deserve to be scorned and mocked until you are replaced.'
Carry on, clinger.
Can you cite a single case of anyone who was at the Capitol that day displaying a gun or discharging a gun on Jan. 6th?
Most you got is someone bearing concealed arms in sensitive place.
A victory for DC gun laws, that insurrectionists chose not to be heavily armed enough to attempt a gun battle with the police.
So, an unarmed protest.
Yup, insurrection. Sure. Makes total sense.
Why do you keep lying about Pelosi?
Lets just say Capitol Hill officials declined the offer of troops to preserve order and handle crowds on Jan. 6.
No such offer was made. There are reports that the number 10000 was casually mentioned by Trump, but it never went outside the Department of Defense.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/03/02/trump-falsely-claims-he-requested-10000-troops-rejected-by-pelosi/?itid=lk_inline_manual_10
Let's not say it, because it's a lie. Here's the most you can say about either aspect of the claim:
1) Before Jan. 6, Trump authorized troops: no, other than a few hundred unarmed NG for traffic control duty in DC. Trump's own SecDef — or acting SecDef, because Trump had been busy replacing Pentagon leadership — Chris Miller testified under oath that Trump at no point issued any such order.
2) Pelosi refused troops: no. A few days before January 6, someone inquired about whether the National Guard would be needed, and the Capitol Police (not Pelosi, who doesn't run the Capitol Police!) said they didn't think so. Maybe that was shortsighted (though they didn't have the same access to intel that Trump had), but that's a far cry from the allegation.
Actual truth: neither Nancy Pelosi nor any other member of Congress or employee of Congress, including the Capitol Police, is in the national chain of command. They had no authority to "reject" troops if Trump had ordered them to be there.
Even more importantly, this is all about the days ahead of J6. On J6, Pelosi, Pence, and dozens of other figures on both sides of the aisle were begging for the national guard, and Trump refused to issue the order. Maryland was offering to send theirs, and Trump refused to authorize it. Trump was watching on TV and saying that Pence deserved to be hanged for betraying him, but refused to issue the order for hours and hours.
Dave I said "Capitol Hill officials declined the offer". The Sergeant of Arms of the Senate and house are Capitol Hill officials, as well as the Capitol Hill Police Chief.
As for Trump ordering troops to be there, I can imagine how that would have been received by Pelosi. His response was "perfect", he asked DOD off they prepared for any problems, they told him they had, and it was handled. Your suggestion that Trump overrule Capitol Hill officials and order troops in personally absent a foreign invasion is ridiculous.
The DOD checked with Capitol Hill police to see if they wanted troops at the Capitol on Jan 6. Mayor Bowser did request troops to supplement DC police and received them.
From the Inspector Generals report timeline.
https://media.defense.gov/2021/Nov/19/2002896088/-1/-1/1/DODIG-2022-039%20V2%20508.PDF
"Jan. 3, 2021 - Mr. Miller’s staff [SecDef] coordinates with the USCP [Capitol Police] and USPP [Park Police] on whether either agency is requesting support for the planned election protest events on January 5-6, 2021; neither agency requests DoD support for the events."
- "Mr. Miller and GEN Milley attend a White House meeting. At the end of the meeting, the President asks about election protest preparations and Mr. Miller tells him, “We’ve got a plan, and we’ve got it covered.”
Page 27 gives more detail of why, when asked Capitol Hill police declined support:
"Events of January 3, 2021
At 9:24 a.m., Mr. Sund [Capitol Hill Police Chief] spoke to the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate Sergeants
at Arms, seeking approval to submit a request for DCNG support at the Capitol on January 6, 2021.
The Sergeants at Arms did not approve submitting a request asking DCNG for support. Mr. Sund added that the House Sergeant at Arms expressed concerns about the optics of National Guard members around the Capitol."
"Are you requesting support?" "No." to the Capitol Police is in exactly zero way the same thing as "Trump ordered 10,000 troops there but Pelosi rejected it."
Please don’t put attribute Mr. Bumble’s words to my keyboard.
What I said all along is Capitol Hill officials refused offers of troops for support.
Mayor Bowser requested 300 troops, she got them.
I also said Trump neither needed to give any order nor should have given any order. It would have been spun as a coup attempt, or to cow Congress and would have been included in the “overt acts”.
He didn't need to give any order to authorize Bowser's troops which shows how empty and absurd the talking point is that he didn't order troops to intervene.
The first false claim was that Trump offered 10000 troops and was refused by Pelosi. No troops were offered.
Mayor Bowser requested unarmed National Guard to help with traffic. Only the President (or the officials delegated to in the Department of Defense, like the Secretary of the Army) could mobilize National Guard.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/12/29/bowser-contee-jan6-transcripts/
Maybe you want to switch to a weak claim that people at the Capitol failed to ask for troops in advance. That looks good in hindsight, but nobody at the time knew that Trump would be inciting an insurrection. And it still shouldn't have been necessary if troops had been sent when first requested that day, but Trump did not do anything to stop the insurrection for quite a long time because he wanted it to succeed. "Well, you didn't ask for troops in advance, so it sucks to be you" is not in line with the Presidential oath of office.
So who refused the 10,000 troops Trump authorized three days before the rally?
What kind of bumbling fool would believe the repeatedly debunked lies of Donald Trump? Oh, it's Bumble. You can easily find fact checks on this all over; here's one.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-235651652542
No offer of troops was made before January 6th; how could anyone overrule the Commander-in-Chief? The problem is that Trump didn't call in the National Guard, because he wanted his insurrectionists to succeed.
The linked article explains the decision to call the Guard rested with the Capitol Police Board: the House Sergeant at Arms, the Senate Sergeant at Arms, and the Architect of the Capitol. The first of those reports to the Speaker and the second to the Senate Majority Leader (McConnell at the time, since the Georgia runoffs were not completed). Both Sergeants at Arms and the Capitol Police Chief resigned after the insurrection.
Nobody. Chris Miller testified under oath that he was never given any such order.
The Secretary of Defense doesn’t need orders, since an executive order in 1969 the Secretary of Defense has authority over the DC National Guard analogous to the Governors authority in the 50 states.
The President doesn’t have a cabinet so he can tell them everything they have to do, he has a cabinet, confirmed by Congress, so they have the authority to do what they need to do without being told.
The insights of antisocial, disaffected, bigoted jackasses who fetishize Ted Kaczynski to the point of living in an off-the-grid hermit shack in America's can't-keep-up backwaters are always a treat.
Legal insights, especially.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, what does that have to do with the claim that Trump gave the order?
Which of course I never claim he gave, or was even requested of him by DOD or Capitol hill officials.
Someone might have requested it on Twitter, but that's irrelevant.
"The more important question is whether Trump’ activity rose to the level of an insurrection."
Never-Trumpers just sort of a tacitly assume that the Proud Boys broke into the Capitol at Trump's direction, rather than, say, the FBI's. It's regarded as self-evidently true, and thus not in need of proof.
rather than, say, the FBI’s
If there were evidence of that, one of the many trials of the Proud Boys would have brought that to light.
This whole ‘it was nothing, just tourists not an insurrection and also a false flag by the FBI’ is not internally consistent.
It shows how J6 is something Trump folks gotta defend not based on their beliefs but based on some other impulse making them turn off their critical thinking. In defense of a violent invasion of the US Capitol.
Which is itself a sign of how toxic to democracy Trump is.
You do realize that there were multiple members of the Proud Boys who were indeed CHI( confidential human informant) including one that was going to be called as a defense witness and had even participated in defense attorney conversations that the prosecution had failed to inform the defense of.
https://apnews.com/article/proud-boys-enrique-tarrio-capitol-riot-informant-ce0a1cf20c17c95b1ea3306fb70d93c4
You realize that a CHI is not a law enforcement officer, right? It's a criminal who is providing information about his criminal cohorts to law enforcement (presumably in the hopes of leniency down the road). (And the one you're talking about is someone who became a CHI after January 6, btw.)
You realize that the distinction between two different ways of pronouncing "works for the government" isn't really that important, right?
No. You do realize that once again you don't know what you're talking about, right? You are confusing an undercover agent, who actually does work for the government, with a CHI, who does not in any sense do so.
Then who are they working for? Who pays them?
Who on earth told you that they were paid at all?
Did you not see the Forbes article I linked showing that informants were paid $548 in total over recent years? Here it is again
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/11/18/fbi-and-other-agencies-paid-informants-548-million-in-recent-years-with-many-committing-authorized-crimes/?sh=5d9fb472f4dd
Not only were some well paid but many were authorized to commit crimes to maintain cover.
What, not in any sense at all? Seriously, you're going with THAT?
Well, not seriously. It's more a pro forma denial at this point, I guess.
Correct. Not in any sense at all, Captain Dunning-Kruger.
They receive orders from law enforcement as what to find out and receive money and other benefits for their services. They are not law enforcement themselves but by any sensible definition they are under the control of the law enforcement agencies.
A bunch of Proud Boys were Fed snitches. It’s like a drug dealer dropping a dime on a rival being classed as a cop.
A CHI is still under control of law enforcement and are often paid cash for information. As to how many CHI were there before January 6 the New York Times reports
Nov. 14, 2022
The F.B.I. had as many as eight informants inside the far-right Proud Boys in the months surrounding the storming of the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, recent court papers indicate
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/us/politics/fbi-informants-proud-boys-jan-6.html
And that was just among the Proud Boys
A CHI is not, in fact, under control of law enforcement.
They often literally are paid by the law enforcement agency that they are working. It is also known that while working for law enforcement that they are often allowed to commit crimes without penalty.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/11/18/fbi-and-other-agencies-paid-informants-548-million-in-recent-years-with-many-committing-authorized-crimes/?sh=5d9fb472f4dd
If I was a snitch and the Feds told me to invade the Capitol and generally run riot with and then got arrested and charged and sentenced, I'd probably be loudly asking where my promised immunity got to, along with all the other snitches.
Considering that none of the CHI are facing charges for what happened that day I would say that they aren't worried about a lack of immunity. In fact one of the informants, Kenny Lizardo, was subpoenaed by the defense but the subpoena was squashed because if he testified it might incriminate him.
Fair enough. Is there the slightest shred of evidence that snitching on ther rivals in their dumb white power movement translated to acting as stormtroopers for a secret Fed anti-coup?
Since it won't let me reply where you asked the question I will point out that I posted how the defense attorneys subpoenaed one informant by the name of Kenny Lizardo but the subpoena was squashed because he would be forced to incriminate himself. You might want to wonder how it would incriminate him.
…okay?
Not dealing with your particular suggested history of J6, but otherwise you describe why a criminal conviction is required for conduct that stops short of needing the force of arms to put down, which may very well cross over to be recognized as under the laws of war--a threshold Civil War insurrectionists certainly crossed, as though it was not obviously a war between nation-states according to the Union (though that was certainly the rebellion Confederate position) the laws of war were still applicable. It's also why Lincoln was very careful with his official language and conduct about the rebellion. This was the context of the 14A, addressing cases where the line was bright and there was no doubt an insurrection had occurred, because it was recognized via presidential proclamation and congressional legislation.
If it's NOT universally accepted that an insurrection has occurred, then a criminal conviction is required to prove it to disqualify someone under Section 3.
Ironically, Trump does not want to be president. He wants the get-out-of-jail-free card that he things the presidency will give him.
He also doesn't want to give up the revenue stream that campaigning will give him. He stands up and says idiotic, sometimes self incriminating things and the rubes send him millions of dollars nonstop. It pays for his legal fees and probably living expenses why would he put a stop to that?
Most of the rubes thinks he cares about them, or at least he cares about things they care about. Narrator: he doesn't.
On this issue, I come down on the side that favors Trump not because I want to see Trump ascend, but because the referred-to amendment part is too risky to allow to be used as written.
If any state disallows Trump on the ballot for that clause no matter how good the reason, there will be at least 30 Republican AGs who will strike Biden off the ballot for any reason they can make up. They will say that Hunter Biden sold secrets to China so Joe Biden is a traitor and therefore not eligible. Or something equally capricious. It only has to sound good on cable TV and QAnon and they are good to go.
This constitutional junk DNA needs to be tested in court and gotten rid of. I'm not sure of the process, but I think Garland should be the one to initiate it. Not that he would.
Section 5 of the 14th Amendment reads "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
The only historic enforcement mechanism I am aware of is the authority of the House and Senate to judge the qualifications of its own members. This is what the House did with Victor Berger.
For federal nominations, consent form the Senate is often required. If someone involved in bungling the withdrawal from Afghanistan was nominated to a federal post, the Senate is certainly free to invoke Section 3 (specifically, that bungling the withdrawal from Afghanistan constituted aiding and abetting) as a basis for denying the appointment (though of course the Senate can legally reject nominees for any reason, however compelling or asinine)
It should have been Jack Smith, if it were to happen.
There is a Federal Criminal statute for insurrection and rebellion that imposes fines, imprisonment, and disqualification for federal office in the penalties upon conviction.
All as authorized under sections 3 and 5 of the 14th amendment.
"There is a Federal Criminal statute for insurrection and rebellion that imposes fines, imprisonment, and disqualification for federal office in the penalties upon conviction."
Cite?
18 U.S.C. § 2383
"There is a Federal Criminal statute for insurrection and rebellion that imposes fines, imprisonment, and disqualification for federal office in the penalties upon conviction."
Disqualification as a criminal penalty under 18 U.S.C. § 2383 and disqualification under the Fourteenth Amendment, § 3 are different animals. The statute is one of general application, not limited to those who had previously taken an oath to support the Constitution. Congress can remove disability under § 3, but not criminal penalties under § 2383.
A person charged under § 2382 has the full panoply of rights available to every criminal defendant; that is not so of one accused pursuant to § 3. Guilt under the statute must be proven beyond reasonable doubt; § 3 is silent as to the applicable standard of proof. Someone accused under § 3 need not be charged by indictment or presentment of a grand jury. Trial need not occur in the state and federal district where the offending conduct occurred, nor is a petit jury available as of right under § 3.
Pursuant to § 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment, Congress could require criminal conviction as a prerequisite to application of § 3, but it has not done so.
So, what exactly is the enforcement mechanism for Section 3?
The same enforcement mechanisms for the age and natural born citizen requirements
You or a cite for that?
Because the only court to rule on that question since 18 U.S.C. § 2383 was enacted ruled that once Congress acted under section 5 that only acts of Congress could enforce section 3:
Arizona Supreme Court
No. CV-22-0099-AP/EL
"11. The court in Griffin then summarized how the Disqualification Clause was intended to operate: “Taking the [Disqualification Clause] then, in its completeness with this final
clause, it seems to put beyond reasonable question the conclusion that the intention of the people of the United States, in adopting the fourteenth amendment, was to create a disability, to be removed in proper cases by a two-thirds vote, and to be made
operative in other cases by the legislation of congress in its ordinary course.”
12. The conclusion in Griffin mirrors the express language of Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which provides: “The Congress shall
have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.”
13. The use of the term “the Congress” differs from use of the term “State” in Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment. This plainly demonstrates an intention that the United States Congress, and not individual states, would be responsible for creating legislation
to enforce the terms of the Fourteenth Amendment.
18. Congress has enacted a criminal statute prohibiting rebellion or insurrection (18 U.S.C.§ 2383). Although the Court declines to express whether this is the exclusive criminal offense Congress has enacted to enforce the Disqualification Clause,3 the fact that the
statute is a criminal one demonstrates an intention that only the government, and not private citizens, must be the party initiating the action.
19. None of the Candidates has been charged with or convicted of any state or federal crime that relates to insurrection or rebellion.
Footnote 3
The Court need not address whether the Disqualification Clause would be deemed to be enforced by convictions for various federal crimes, including obstructing congressional proceedings (18 U.S.C. § 1505), entering and remaining in a restricted building (18 U.S.C. § 1752(a)(1)), or disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building (18 U.S.C. § 1752(a)(2)). None of the Candidates has been charged or convicted of any of these crimes. "
I think that as a matter of law Baude et al. may well be right about their interpretation of the 14th. But I agree with you that as a matter of prudence it can't work the way they want. Not for president. Maybe for lower-level offices.
Even if you weren't right about the tit-for-tat — and you probably are — as Dilan wrote on Twitter, let's suppose that Trump is kicked off the (e.g.) Michigan ballot for being an insurrectionist. Then let's suppose that Biden wins the presidential election solely by the margin of Michigan's electoral votes, which he won by default. The resulting brouhaha would make January 6 look like a Girl Scout troop meeting. Hell, it would make Dr. Ed's genocidal fantasies look tame. If it were some other GOP figure, maybe it would be mostly peaceful — but with Donald Trump, who couldn't give less of a fuck about the country and would be happy to burn it down to benefit himself?
Seriously, though: The party in power retains control of the White house purely on the basis of disqualifying the opposition party's candidate on a basis that most people in the opposition party think is bogus. Maybe the resulting brouhaha SHOULD make January 6th look like a Girl Scout troop meeting?
Trump's foes make a lot of noise about Trump being an existential threat to democracy, but maybe the real threat is his foes' absolute determination to keep him out of office at absolutely any cost...
Anyway, as I've related before, no, I don't think Baude et al are right about Section 3. We have plenty of examples of Section 3 being invoked right after the Civil war, and one example after, and not one of them involved preventing anybody from casting a vote however they liked. They all had Congress refusing to seat somebody after they'd won, and once we got away from people who'd literally been waging war with the US, one guy who was convicted in a criminal trial.
Nobody has ever been disqualified in the manner Baude suggests. Ever.
Baude and Paulsen explain why this might be the case, and why it shouldn't be determinative of what happens now. Perhaps you should read the whole paper.
I am lukewarm at best on this theory, but I don’t think this particular objection has a whole lot of force when there also aren’t any examples of presidential candidates who should have been excluded but weren’t.
"Ironically, Trump does not want to be president. He wants the get-out-of-jail-free card that he things the presidency will give him.
He also doesn’t want to give up the revenue stream that campaigning will give him."
I miss the good old days, before Democrats normalized claiming to be able to read minds and other mass delusions and hysterias.
Nothing in the text of the Insurrection Act defines “insurrection,” “rebellion,” “domestic violence,” or any of the other key terms used in setting forth the prerequisites for deployment. Absent statutory guidance, the Supreme Court decided early on that this question is for the president alone to decide. In the 1827 case Martin v. Mott, the Court ruled that “the authority to decide whether [an exigency requiring the militia to be called out] has arisen belongs exclusively to the President, and . . . his decision is conclusive upon all other persons.” :https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/insurrection-act-explained
So who declared Jan. 6 to be an "insurrection"?
Asked and answered, Bumble. You should read replies to your questions before posting them again.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/08/31/why-efforts-to-invoke-section-3-of-the-14th-amendment-to-keep-donald-trump-off-the-ballot-may-fail/?comments=true#comment-10220481
Your new dodge offers nothing, except perhaps to reveal the current talking points in the right wing fever swamp. There's no need for deployment under the Insurrection Act to have an insurrection; nor would it be likely, when the insurrection's central cause is the President himself.
Given that ordinary citizens don’t have standing because they suffer no particular injury, would a declared Republican presidential candidate have standing, on the grounds that the presence of a purportedly illegitimate candidate on the ballot would affect his chances?
If so, how good a chance must that declared candidate have? Let’s say that I call myself a candidate, and I’ve actually stood outside the post office with my petition and collected a dozen or so of the 56,000 signatures that I need to get on the primary ballot. Does that suffice, or do I have to have some kind of realistic chance of getting the nomination?
If you hadn’t qualified for the ballot, I would think you’d be no different from the voters who lacked standing in this case; Trump on the ballot isn’t directly stopping you from qualifying for the ballot.
I doubt other Republican candidates with realistic chances would make a challenge against Trump, because they’d alienate Trump voters; maybe a candidate with no chance whose entire purpose is to oppose Trump (e.g., Chris Christie) but maybe as you suggest that would affect his standing.
But standing can look very weird to me, and I’m not a lawyer, so I may be spectacularly wrong.
Edit: reply to Old Smokin' Egg, but not linked to that comment.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/09/02/district-court-in-florida-concludes-voters-lack-standing-to-challenge-trumps-eligibility/?comments=true#comment-10222597
"Sorry, you can't challenge it."
"DAMMIT!!!!!"
"I though this was disinterested concern and not political motivation to get a political enemy?"
"Oh, right. I mean
"golly."
Neato narrative, but I don't see a lot of rage here except at the burgeoning J6 conspiracy theories.
The "conspiracy" being no attempt to overthrow the government.
Feel free to throw in the laughable prison sentences handed down (good luck with that whole "sentencing reform" thing).
...all of the above to be continued on Open Thread Monday in about six hours.
Neither standing nor ripeness isn’t the real hindrance to pressing that exclusion doctrine: https://www.kennedyforlaw.com/the-fourteenth-amendment-does-not-automatically-prevent-trump-s-re-election