The Volokh Conspiracy
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How School Choice Can Mitigate Harmful Culture War Policies in Public Education
Current culture wars are just one more manifestation of the reality that public education routinely devolves into indoctrination and imposition of majoritarian ideology on dissenters. But school choice can help mitigate that problem.
Over the last several years, much of the US has been beset by culture wars over education in which right and left try to skew public school curricula in their favor, while banning materials they find offensive or distasteful. On the right, the state of Utah recently passed a ban on "indecent" books that is so sweeping that some school districts have banned the use of the Bible in elementary schools because it contains "vulgarity and violence." Florida recently enacted a sweeping ban on education about sexual identity, that goes far beyond its earlier "don't say gay" law, and applies all the way through high school. It should be obvious that books describing sexuality and violence often have educational value, especially in higher grades. And there is nothing wrong with telling students about different types of sexual identity, even if it is also desirable that this be done with due sensitivity.
Left-wing jurisdictions have enacted dubious restrictions of their own. For example, some have banned the teaching of such literary classics as Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird, on the grounds that they contain racist language. The ridiculous rationale for such bans overlooks the obvious fact that the books in question do not defend racism, but condemn it.
These examples are just the tip of a much larger iceberg of dubious, ideologically driven curricular decisions in both red and blue jurisdictions. Some of these policies can be traced back to the flaws of particular politicians and activists. But there is a more general structural problem underlying them. By its very nature, public education creates opportunities for the politically powerful to indoctrinate children in their preferred ideology, while locking out or severely restricting alternative viewpoints. Both red and blue states have a long history of doing exactly that. The problem dates back to the origins of modern public education in the 19th century, when in Europe it was often instituted for the purpose of indoctrinating students in nationalist ideology, and in the US often for the purpose of imposing Protestant views on new immigrants, many of whom were Catholics or Jews.
The danger of such indoctrination is the main reason why John Stuart Mill opposed state control of schools, even though he favored public subsidization of education for those unable to afford it. He warned that "[a] general State education is a mere contrivance for moulding people to be exactly like one another: and as the mould in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation."
In US states, the "predominant power in the government" is usually some combination of majority public opinion and organized activists and interest groups. The intensifying right-left culture war of the last few years has heightened their eagerness to use the public education system to impose their will.
Some hope that the censorial tendencies of public school officials might be curbed by litigation. I'm not an expert on the relevant First Amendment doctrine, so may be missing something. But, at least for the most part, I think such hopes are largely baseless. In a public school system, the government inevitably has extensive power over the curriculum. It has to be able to dictate what is taught, select teachers, and discipline those unwilling to follow the rules. Even if courts might strike down some of the more egregious book bans, officials can get around that by dictating course content in other ways. By requiring the inclusion of X and Y, they necessarily leave less time for Z.
Courts or legislatures could potentially limit the power of higher-level school officials and instead leave more discretion in the hands of individual teachers. This is how things often work in state universities (including my own). But that nonetheless still empowers government officials (albeit lower-level ones) to impose value choices on dissenting students and parents. If you're a conservative parent in an area where most of the relevant public school officials are liberal (or vice versa), those choices are likely to feel oppressive.
There is no perfect solution to this problem. But it can be mitigated by school choice policies under which parents are given vouchers or tax credits to choose from a wide range of schools. Many states have enacted new school choice laws over the last few years. While much of this is driven by conservatives and libertarians, parents and students with a wide range of views stand to benefit.
Liberal parents in conservative areas can choose schools that reflect their preferences, and the same goes for conservatives in liberal areas, and the many parents who would simply prefer to avoid culture war-oriented curricula of either side. To the extent that red states are more likely to enact school choice policies than blue ones, liberal parents and students in red jurisdictions are actually among the biggest beneficiaries of school choice. Otherwise, they might be forced to accept curricula dictated by the likes of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and his socially conservative allies.
To be sure, parents exercising choice may select schools with dubious curricular policies, whether of the right or the left. But that danger is less severe when parents can "vote with their feet" through school choice than when they make decisions about education (and other issues) in elections. Because of the very low odds that any one vote will make a difference, ballot box voters have little incentive to seek out information about policy issues, or to evaluate what they learn in a unbiased way. They are instead rationally ignorant, and often act as biased "political fans." That dynamic helps explain the incredible idiocy of many culture-war driven education policies. They aren't adopted through careful reasoning, but for the purpose of appealing to the raw emotions of political fans.
Foot voters, by contrast, have much better incentives to both seek out relevant information, and evaluate it objectively. That includes parents making choices about their children's education in a situation where their decisions will make a decisive difference about which schools their kids will actually attend, and with what kind of curriculum. Foot-voting parents are less likely to be seduced by stupid culture-war policies than ballot-box voters. They are more likely to try hard to seek out schools that maximize educational quality. Indeed, school choice often disproportionately benefits poor and minority students who are mostly likely to be shortchanged by conventional public schools, who are least able to effectively make use of political leverage. Even poor and disadvantaged families can often make good foot-voting decisions.
Empowering parents to choose can also help mitigate the education culture war. If parents with different views can have their needs met by different schools, they are likely to feel less need to impose their preferences on the unwilling. By contrast, such imposition is hard to avoid in the zero-sum game of public education, where there usually must be a single curriculum imposed on an entire region or state.
Choice can also reduce the danger that a single form of harmful indoctrination will be imposed across the board, on all the students in a given state or - even worse - throughout the country (should the federal government gain more control over education). Even if some parents opt for ideologically dubious curricula for their children, that is less dangerous than having the same set of bad ideas imposed on everyone.
To be sure, there is a danger that state or local governments might use voucher systems to impose ideologically driven curricula. Some minimal standards for voucher eligibility are unavoidable, and the state can potentially abuse that authority. For example, it can try to ensure that only schools with right-wing curricula (or only left-wing ones) are eligible for vouchers.
This problem is a genuine danger that school-choice proponents should take seriously. But it is mitigated by the fact that it's much harder for state authorities to impose tight curriculum controls on private schools where they do not control the hiring and firing of personnel and cannot easily supervise on a regular basis. Significantly, states that have adopted broad-ranging school choice programs have generally not attached tight curricular restrictions to them. That's even true of red states that have simultaneously imposed very dubious rules on public-school curricula. For example, Florida's recent major expansion of school choice does not impose on participating private schools any of the controversial "don't say gay" restrictions new state laws have forced on public ones. Those who (rightly, in my view) decry the latter laws, should welcome the former! They will enable more parents and students to escape dubious right-wing public school curricula.
Perhaps even more tellingly, the long history of federal subsidization of higher education has resulted in little in the way of federal control over the curricula of private and state universities (though such subsidies and their attached conditions have caused various other problems). In a long career of teaching politically controversial subjects at such schools (both private and state), I don't think I've ever heard of a curricular decision being influenced by ideological pressure from the federal Department of Education. I don't claim such things never happen. But they are rare - especially compared to the power state and local governments exert over the curricula of public schools.
There is, perhaps, something of a contradiction between many red states' eagerness to impose right-wing orthodoxy in public schools and their simultaneous willingness to give vouchers to students attending private schools, with few or no ideological constraints. But inconsistency is often preferable to being consistently wrong. At the very least, liberals who dislike these states' public-school curricular policies should be more open to school choice.
Choice is not a panacea for all the ills of our education system. Nor will it make the culture wars go away entirely. But it can help mitigate some of the worst aspects of both.
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I doubt additional nonsense-teaching, low-quality schools (the schools operated by and for conservatives) are going to be part of any solution to any legitimate problem.
I also see no reason taxpayers should be expected to fund schools that teach not only childish nonsense but indeed silly, absolute nonsense.
Good thing convicted Sex Criminals don't have a say in pubic policy.
I may have mentioned this before, but Frank is basically a right-wing version of Rev. Kirkland, and Rev. Kirkland is basically a left wing version of Frank. And most of the rest of the regulars here just wish they would find some other sandbox to crap in.
Congratulations on your selection as the VC hall monitor.
Do you disagree with anything I said?
Frankly, it’s the most agreeable thing you’ve ever said.
Frankie and Artie, sitting in a tree, T-R-O-LL-I-N-G...?
I think you took a few too many Pugil sticks to the head without proper headgear.
You think there's such a thing as too many Pugil sticks to the head?
Pussy.
Rather be a pussy than how Moe-Hammad Ali ended up (but what's Sleepy J's excuse?? you know his slick ass never fought anyone)
"Do you disagree with anything I said?"
Does it matter? Frank and the Rev. may be opposite sides of the same coin and you are free to mute either or both of them if you find their comments bothersome.
It matters because if you agree with me, then why are you arguing with me about it?
Since we're going to police comments, I'm giving you a "Basically" warning. Two in one sentence!!!!!!!!!!!!
and you started a sentence with "And", Jeezo-Beezo, I'm supposed to be the ill-literate one.
Frank
No one has claimed you're illiterate. That's not the issue.
Basically.
Why limit it to schools? Should the federal government issue country club vouchers to families who are dissatisfied with public parks and recreational facilities?
No. That was easy.
Limit it to schools because schools are one of the few things that government mandates that we consume.
But don't worry -- as Barack Obama said: if you like your school, you can keep your school.
How about police and fire services? If I'm dissatisfied with my local police or fire department, why shouldn't I get a voucher for private police or fire services? I'm as much a mandated consumer of those services as I am of public schools.
It seems to me the principle is that just because the government chooses to provide a service does not obligate it to pay for a private service provider for those who don't like what the government is offering.
" I’m as much a mandated consumer of those services as I am of public schools."
Your interact with the police and fire dept. everyday?
Except for occasionally being invited as a classroom speaker, I haven’t interacted with public schools in more than 50 years. I last attended public school in 1966 and have no children. I don’t recall ever interacting with the fire department, and my last interaction with the police was about five years ago when I had some property that was stolen. So yes, I’m as mandated a consumer of one as I am of the other.
Now, instead of one of your typically stupid distractions, do you have a response to my main point that just because the government provides a service it is not obligated to pay for private service providers for those who don't like the service being offered?
1966??? AD?? Jeez, I was 4.
Funny how peoples without children are always the experts on how peoples with children should ed-jew-ma-cate theirs.
Sent my Daughters to Hebrew School until HS, when I realized the Pubic Screw-el wasn't 1/2 bad (more like 1/4 bad, if you get my drift) but no way they were going to get an Ath-uh-letic Scholarship out of a small private school.
OK, the drive into Atlanta was pretty bad, and the pubic screw-el was right around the corner, and if you know anything about Gwinnett County GA, they're now both functionally fluent in Korean,
Frank
You already can contract for private police and fire services. And while individuals can't be easily reimbursed for those costs, corporate entities do that all the time.
And nothing bad happens.
Right, but the point is that if you wish to contract for private police or fire services, the state doesn't pay for it. You can also send your kids to private schools but the state shouldn't pay for that either, and for exactly the same reason.
You missed the important part of my comment - in corporate situations, the state does pay for it (part of it anyway). And nothing bad happens. It's seen as good for both the state and the corporation.
Economies of scale might make that tricky to scale down to individual services but that doesn't change the fundamental answer. It's allowed and in certain circumstances can even be a good idea.
The state pays for it in specific circumstances and usually because the state is getting something out of it in return. Unlike school vouchers, in which anyone who wants one can get one.
In theory, the state is getting exactly the same thing out of school vouchers that it's getting out of the public schools: An educated populace.
Heavy emphasis on “ in theory”
The State doesn't 'pay' anything. It only redirects taxpayers money to what *legislators want*, whether taxpayers agree or not, with many legislators benefiting indirectly based on which entity the decide are worthy of *other people's* money because they sure as hell aren't going to spend their *own*.
Sigh. OK, guys, lets read the first sentence in the post:
"Would be worth considering" does not mean it would actually be good policy. But get back to us when the fire department actually starts hosting BLM rallies instead of putting out fires.
Fire services are quite reasonable to have private versions of - and that's why they are a real thing, usually in rural areas.
Police services, on the other hand...
If all you want is armed security, that exists in private form, and has since well before the US.
Bounty hunting, for limited cases, is still legal in much of the US.
I don't know of any private tax collectors anymore (collection agencies are different).
Private investigators still exist.
Whether or not these things are wise, or efficient, is an entirely different topic.
and let the unwashed asses in my club?!?!? of course not!!!!!!!!!
What bad happens if they do? What's inherently wrong with privatizing parks and recreation so long as you ensure that everyone has access to it?
I do think there is a good argument that schools are different because there is an inherently greater risk of government control of education compared to government control of entertainment - but that's a question of degree, not structural difference.
School choice fucks the poor. Vouchers won’t support their schooling, unless you nationalize all schools.
So they get to stay in the public system. In schools now starved of funds so middle class people can choose to go to schools that align with their parents’ partisanship.
Seems an awful plan. Serfs and zealots, far as the eye can see.
That's about what I'd have expected you to say. The same reasoning would say that we can't have food stamps, we'd have to nationalize all the grocery stores.
Why not have the vouchers large enough to actually pay for schooling, rather than deliberately making them too small?
Dude, your analogy is backwards: supermarkets are private; public schools are not.
Why not have the vouchers large enough to actually pay for schooling, rather than deliberately making them too small?
Think this through: if you want most schools to be government funded, you'll need some incentives to keep their tuition down to a manageable level, since you've now borked the demand curve. And presto, you've got the government more involved in school policy than ever.
Actually, the strongest supporters of school choice and charter schools are poor Black parents because they can't afford to move to another town with better schools. Hispanics to a lesser extent because they tend to be Catholic and have the option of the Parochial schools where they still exist.
Vouchers work because the schools that suck also are inefficient and others can do more with the same amount of money.
Yeah, the charter schools around here all get by with less money, because they don't get the full funding the regular schools get.
But they still get by, by being frugal. The regular government schools with larger budgets are very wasteful in their spending.
"But they still get by, by being frugal. The regular government schools with larger budgets are very wasteful in their spending."
That is a huge understatement.
Lost among the anti voucher proponents - pro school spending proponents is the significantly better education outcomes in the catholic schools with 1/2 spending per pupil vs public schools along with the oversized classes. similar results in many of the charter schools
To give you an example, the middle school my son just graduated has a technology room, that has about 20 CAD workstations. They're better computers than I use professionally!
They just sit there gathering dust, because the school never got around to having a CAD class.
The Catholic schools are in trouble because their labor model consisted of essentially free labor from nuns, and membership in the orders has declined dramatically in the past 50 years. And all the money that is paid out in sexual abuse settlements can't go toward other things, like schools.
But for fun, take a look at your state data on (public) district per child spending, it's usually on your state website, and you'll find that there are some fairly decent school districts that spend a whole lot less than the failing big-city ones. Yes, there are the gold-plated suburban ones, but you'll usually find a few that aren't.
What you will inevitably find is that the failing mostly-minority districts are above average in per pupil spending. A lot of that money isn't making it to the classroom, but it isn't a shortage of money. For example, the District of Columbia spends $30K per child and have schools that truly suck -- https://townhall.com/columnists/terryjeffrey/2020/09/16/washington-dc-public-schools-spend-30k-per-student-23-of-8th-graders-proficient-in-reading-n2576265
Charter schools are a fine idea in principle, but in execution they need more monitoring, so long as they're actually doing what they say they're doing, educating at the level they should, and don't close suddenly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_htSPGAY7I
In my experience, in execution the regular schools needs more monitoring, to see that they’re actually doing what they say they’re doing.
My son’s AP math teacher just lost her job. Why?
Because she never unpacked and distributed the state textbooks, because she up and decided on her own not to follow the state math curriculum, but instead threw together one by printing out worksheets from assorted online sources. And the school might never have known, if it weren’t for the fact that all these advance placement students who’d excelled at math previously were suddenly having all sorts of problems, and were complaining to the administration about what a loon she was.
Tu quoque is not an argument, Brett.
And your anecdote really speaks to the need for a standardized curriculum, actually.
My anecdote really speaks to the fact that the public schools aren't automatically trustworthy, either.
Sure, if the government is financing schools, you need to monitor them to confirm that they're achieving the intended outcomes. Which is not at all the same thing as a standardized curriculum, which is the sort of thing that should only be enforced at the government's own schools.
Since my son's middle school is a magnet school, I've gotten to see the downside of a standardized curriculum: It actually gets in the way of accelerated learning for the higher achieving kids, because the standard curriculum isn't aimed at high achieving kids, it's aimed at a pace 90% of the kids can keep up with.
Next year my son goes to an actual charter school, where they have less state regulation, and can really put the pedal to the metal.
public schools aren’t automatically trustworthy, either.
Yes, I don't think I said anything like this. Note that by design charter schools are already under less oversight than public schools.
I was being a bit flippant about standardized curricula. I agree with you that there are costs to that kind of one-sized-fits-all approach, as well as benefits. It's quite a challenge to allow flexibility without allowing some crazies.
For a while metrics were thought to be the silver bullet. But incentivizing teaching to the test has it's own costs.
We have a saying in engineering: You can't control what you don't measure.
Yeah, you don't want to accidentally end up optimizing the test results instead of the thing the tests are supposed to be measuring, but that's a question of test design: If the tests are good, teaching to the test is a GOOD thing!
If the tests are good. If they're not good, that's a problem in itself, whether you test to them or not.
If the tests are good, teaching to the test is a GOOD thing!
Real-world implementation of knowledge and skills is never going to be like a test. Thus, a test is by nature going to not be a perfect measure of success. Testing is the best measure we got, but enough in variance from real-world that teaching to it is bad.
Add in that most of the tests being taught to are standardized, and you have a further one-size-fits-all issue.
I punched way above my weight in standardized tests, versus real-world implementation. It was (mostly) great for me, but not for whomever I beat out.
The difference between engineering and people is that in engineering the thing you're measuring doesn't know it's being measured: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
Good ol' Strawman0, seeking to keep the poor black kids in failing public schools, rather than let them out to a better performing school.
Well, yeah, you think Barry Hussein wanted Malware and Shasta interacting with real Black kids???
Care to actually engage with what I wrote or is actual argumentation like that too hard for you?
Actual argument? What argument? You made an unsupported assertion. There's nothing wrong with the way he engaged with your unsupported claim.
I provided a logical chain. That's an argument.
AL provided a strawman. That's a fallacy.
You've provided nothing so far.
What strawman?
Do you, or do you not, want to keep poor kids in their current public schools, and deny them the option to go to other schools of their choice via vouchers?
Are those current public schools failing? (The answer there is yes).
All true. But I'm not Strawman0, I make actually arguments supported by facts..
Fact 1: Washington DC public schools spent more than $30,000 per pupil in 2020. More than $30,000...
Fact 2: For all that money, DC got students where only 31% of students were at grade level in reading, and 22% in math.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/national/article_1774b89a-4015-11ed-ad1d-a37426722af4.html
Fact 3: The average private school tuition in Washington DC is just $25,861. Approximately $5,000 cheaper per year than what DC pays for its public schools per pupil.
https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/district-of-columbia
Fact 4: But Washington DC does have a school voucher program. Strictly limited to poor students however, as the families can't earn more than 185% of the federal poverty limit.
So...in fact it benefits ONLY poor students...the same ones Strawman0 would like to deny the choice to go to different schools.
Better yet, the average voucher value is just $10,340. Compare that to the per pupil spending in DC schools of over $30,000....
Yet equitable outcomes are see in terms of test scores, with lower levels of absenteeism and higher levels of student happiness.
https://www.edchoice.org/school-choice/programs/district-of-columbia-opportunity-scholarship-program/
Oh, we should mention...none of that money actually comes from DC. It's via special federal funding. But Strawman0 would still like to strip that choice from DC students.
Ending the voucher program would actually cost DC more money and resources, because then they'd be on the hook to teach all those additional students, leaving less resources for the rest.
But these inconvenient facts don't seem to matter to Strawman0.
But those are just facts. I expect Strawman0 will strawman up or gaslight an argument away. We can only guess at his motives.
Well, except for the actual data directly contradicting your starting premise, that's a great comment. Good lord, Somin has provided links to those studies multiple times. Read them. The poor are the overwhelming beneficiaries of school choice.
The poor are the overwhelming beneficiaries of school choice.
I just ran through the OP, and didn't see anything actual data on this.
I also Googled, and found studies indicating good outcomes for those who received and were able to use vouchers, but nothing as to the costs for those left behind.
Are you arguing no one would be left behind?
Wow, those new goalposts are in a different zip code.
This presumes there are currently zero private schools with tuition within the school choice envelope and superior outcomes to the failing state schools the poor currently attend.
Showing that would take some thoughtful and extensive data analysis, not a few sentences of angry handwaving.
I mean, it's trivially false, too, since if it is possible to run public schools on the public school budget, it would also be possible to run private schools on the same budget.
I'm not sure what he thinks nationalizing has to do with privatizing, but, well, Sarcastro.
Schools in poor neighborhoods already barely provide an education (at best). And everyone knows it.
Doing a terrible job doesn’t change the pay for the staff at those schools though. It’s the poor kids who suffer to keep the dollars flowing. And it costs the rest of us when those kids get older with no education. The school staff eventually retires with lavish pensions.
Can we put an end to this circle-jerk reasoning? Today’s Right creates a “problem” thru hysterical toxic lying and then demands the “problem” be solved. It plays out like this:
The Right’s handlers feed their followers pure bullshit – let’s use “voting fraud is stealing our elections” as an example. The followers eat this rancid crap like it’s manna from heaven, because they like the buzz victimhood gives them. Soon you have the entire hive mind “convinced” in the existence of pervasive voting fraud, all based on nothing more than a junkie’s need for his victimhood fix.
Then the Right’s handlers decry the lack of public faith in elections, just like the patricide asking for mercy because he’s an orphan. Rinse and repeat, because this same pattern occurs over and over. This particular piece of culture war imbecility stated with the controversy of CRT in the public schools – which is odd because there never was any CRT in the public schools. But from a thimbleful of substance the Right makes a Mt Everest of rage to feed its consumer base.
Professor Somin may think he’s discovered the trick to appease this monster but he’s wrong. It’s an empty nihilistic Nothing that’s rotted thru to its very core. It can't be appeased, only fed.
Well by the length of your post, you're certainly an expert in Circle Jerks.
Well, you’re completely wrong about election fraud. Over my 20+ years as a volunteer poll worker, I can tell you without a doubt that at least in my state, we have always considered fraud to be a real and present danger. There are layers upon layers of security-related protocols, rules, and regulations. We volunteers undergo required training for every election, no matter how local. In fact, I just last night attended a required 2 1/2-hour training session for our upcoming Democratic Party primary — and I still have one more required one-on-one training session with our assistant registrar to go.
You’re not going to get anywhere with your line about Republicans being falsely concerned about election integrity. People have always treated this seriously, and our concern is completely non-partisan.
We run a damn tight ship in my state, and we do so exactly because people do indeed try to cheat the system -- all the time.
Back in the 90's I was a volunteer for the Jon Coon campaign. It was unusually well funded for a Libertarian campaign, so we set out to visit every last voter in the district with a literature packet including a campaign video. Each volunteer was given a list of addresses of registered voters to visit.
It was amazing to see how many of those addresses were fake. Either the street ended before that high a number, or the address given was actually a commercial address. Sure looked like the district had a problem with fake voter registrations.
It is still true to this day that voter registration is the weak spot in election security. It presents the broadest attack surface and the highest replay opportunity of any part of the system.
That's why every time somebody tries to do a post election audit of absentee voters, just going around to people listed as having voted absentee, and asking them if they in fact did, there's a big time meltdown. Using fake registrations to cast absentee votes is the only really scalable vote fraud technique out there.
I don't see why the SSI Death Index can't be used to remove dead voters from the lists. If the US Government has cancelled your social security number because they think you are dead, you've got bigger problems that you'll learn about long before it is time to go vote....
That was an “All in the Family” plot from 1972, SSI declared Archie dead, Meathead said “It’s 1984!!” Archie said “Ah go on, you don’t even know what year it is!!!”
Well, the right doesn't care about voter fraud. Not really. They're pulling out of the Electronic Registration Information Center to cater to the barking mad conspiracy mongers in their base.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/09/1076529761/right-wing-conspiracies-have-a-new-target-a-tool-that-fights-actual-voter-fraud
The Left wants to sexualize children in schools on the taxpayer's dime. The Right objects to this. Ivory-tower weirdo Somin characterizes this as two opposing extreme positions. In saner times, like up to ten years ago, people who insisted on having conversations with children about their sexual fetishes were imprisoned. Today they are the Left's ideal schoolteachers.
The Right wants schools that teach children reading, writing, math, and good citizenship. as they have tried to do for the last 200 years or so. The Left wants schools that turn out sexually confused oikophobes who, most importantly, are reflexive Democrat voters.
It's been more than 10 years -- this stuff was starting in the 1980s.
Agreed. It's time to re-consider the entire value proposition of having a formal sexual education program at all in public schools. Clearly it has been abused to indoctrinate students, not inform them. Cover mammalian sexuality in Biology class, and leave the morality and ethics to parents and guardians.
Yes, lets quit with the sex ed, because liberals are using it to turn all our kids trans, and then they'll ALL VOTE DEM.
No, paranoiacs with sex on the brain don't get their own schools where they can inculcate some stunted demon-haunted reality into their kids.
Hell, you're good evidence against home schooling.
"Yes, lets quit with the sex ed, because liberals are using it to turn all our kids trans, and then they’ll ALL VOTE DEM."
The argument is that schools are doing a poor job at teaching sex ed. Do you have a counterargument.
That's not the argument, TiP. Here is the post I replied to: "The Left wants schools that turn out sexually confused oikophobes who, most importantly, are reflexive Democrat voters."
I get why you'd want to revise that thesis to something more defendable, but you cannot.
As to your brand new thesis, that's not an argument needing a counter, it's an ipse dixit. Come in with some data and we can talk.
And no anecdotes, I know that's your go-to.
Schools are doing a terrible job of teaching sex ed. Half the country is still teaching abstinence-only, for one.
Only abstinence-only?
How are you so plugged in to what American schools are teaching?
When even Planned Parenthood states that 39 states mandate sex ed (as opposed to the CDC's list of 'only' 37), you know your assertion is absurd.
Of course, when you get into the details, he becomes even more wrong. There is a list of topics that the CDC requires to be considered a "comprehensive sexual education class", and that includes not only education about sex and pregnancy, but also HIV (specifically), homosexuality, "sexual and gender minority youth" behaviors, and "practicing protective behaviors (e.g.,
role-playing refusal skills)". Oh! And also, teach abstinence.
So a state that mandates a basic sexual education, but does not include education about homosexual behaviors would not count.
Most likely, he's reading the usual lying press releases by activist organizations, and apply zero critical thought to what they suggest before repeating the claims like a good parrot.
"No, paranoiacs with sex on the brain don’t get their own schools where they can inculcate some stunted demon-haunted reality into their kids."
That is exactly what you're defending the left doing to everybody's kids at the public schools. Do you not get this? YOUR side is the one with sex on the brain, insisting on inculcating lunacy into other people's kids.
No, Brett. That's projection. Schools are pretty normal actually.
FFS you have a kid there and you should know better. Most of the people saying it's all fetish all the time have no ties to the system, they're just reading right wing media and getting spun up. You have no such excuse.
I can actually READ what the laws your side is complaining about say, and based on the sorts of laws your side finds intolerable, yeah, your side are the lunatics.
I read the laws too. And I've explained to you all the issues with implementation. You never listened.
And no, there are *examples* of implementation (teacher investigated for showing Strange New World to the class) and you still proceed, blind to reality.
Yeah, your problem 'with the implementation' is that you assume they'll ignore what the law actually SAYS during the implementation phase. Well, that's what the courts are for, isn't it?
No, Brett, we have gone over where the laws say stuff that you're taking to be much less broad than the language.
Remember when the text on it's forbade having a debate about affirmative action? You dismissed that as not how the law would actually go down.
Or how the just say gay bill isn't really targeting gay teachers, except now it is.
You departed from your formalist textualism to defend these laws. And you have been proven incorrect in your supposition.
Funny how you keep making these claims about what the laws are doing, but you can never actually support them.
Last time, you tried to include people who quit before the laws were passed, substitutes and temps that were never hired, and as the most absurd example, a parent suing a school - all as examples of laws "targeting gay teachers".
What totally false examples can you come up with this time?
I'll take desperate strawmen for $800, Alex!
You have completely lost your mind.
Disaffected, delusional, education-disdaining, grievance-consumed right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.
THAT WAS THE 1,283, 881st time the "Reverend" Jerry Sandusky has used that phrase. Lets give him a hand ladies and germs, and somebody ask S-S-S-S-S-Stuttering John F-F-F-F-F-etterman's staff what's holding up the "Reverend's" Commutation
Hm... so you want to start sorting kids into ideological bubbles as young as possible.
That's what I was thinking too. Segregating pupils makes the problem worse, not better. Putting everyone in the same school gives the minority an incentive to litigate and use politics to shut down the worst ideas of the majority. Segregating pupils along ideological lines takes away that incentives, exposing all pupils to more stupidity.
No, he just wants people to have a choice of bubbles, rather than being stuck with the one the government created.
What happened to foot voting?
You mean the practice of Dem voters voting multiple times in multiple locations?
Yes, they should also teach about fiction in schools. But maybe not that kind of fiction.
"Florida Republican Governor Ron DeSantis suspended North Miami Beach Democrat Mayor Anthony DeFillipo from office on Monday after he was arrested and charged with multiple felonies for allegedly voting illegally in an election multiple times."
https://www.dailywire.com/news/desantis-suspends-mayor-from-office-who-was-arrested-for-alleged-voter-fraud
So far all you're telling me is that the GOP governor of Florida had an elected Democrat arrested and removed from office.
You left out this part:
"after he was arrested and charged with multiple felonies for allegedly voting illegally in an election multiple times.”
No I didn't. You will note that the word "arrested" appears perfectly clearly in my comment, while the word "convicted" appears nowhere in either of yours.
Yes, we can see perfectly clearly that you omitted from your comment any mention of the charges.
The charges are pretty irrelevant once I've already mentioned the arrest. He's still presumed innocent.
For the record, I'm not saying I actually believe he *is* innocent. I'm just saying that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Every time DeSAntis accuses the Federal DOJ of only ever acting for political reasons, there's one less reason to give him the benefit of the doubt in Florida. (As the Dutch saying goes, 'as is the publican, so he trusts his guests'.)
https://www.foxnews.com/media/desantis-pledges-fire-chris-wray-fbi-doj-lost-way
Explanation of that idiom in a separate comment, so it doesn't get caught in the spam filter:
https://www.thehagueonline.com/kickstart-language-school/2016/01/06/dutch-eye-opener-zoals-de-waard-is
According to CBS news, DeFillipo has been arrested and charged with multiple felony counts. People have been complaining for some time now that he doesn't actually live in the city.
North Miami Beach Mayor Anthony DeFillipo arrested over 'voting irregularities'
"MIAMI -- North Miami Beach Mayor Anthony DeFillipo was arrested Wednesday and has been charged with three felony counts of voting in a North Miami Beach district even though he no longer lived in the area for which he cast a ballot.
Fernandez Rundle said cell phone data was used to track DeFillipo's location on the days where he voted, showing where he was phone before he traveled to Miami-Dade to cast a ballot."
Mind you, my mom used to live in Davie, I don't blame the guy for preferring it to North Miami Beach. It's a much more pleasant place to live.
The North Miami Beach government sounds pretty dysfunctional, frankly. Mayor living outside his own city, city counsel unable to conduct business because they can't muster a quorum.
And yet Mark Meadows still walks the streets as a free man!
Or voting "early and often" in the same location...
"There is, perhaps, something of a contradiction between may red states' eagerness to impose right-wing orthodoxy in public schools and their simultaneous willingness to give vouchers to students attending private schools, with few or no ideological constraints."
Actually, no, there isn't any contradiction. In fact, it's disturbing that you think so, it means you don't really understand what is going on here. You see a symmetrical situation, where there isn't really any symmetry.
Because, what you're describing as the imposition of right-wing orthodoxy is just the absence of left-wing orthodoxy. It's not an orthodoxy of its own that needs to be imposed.
You don't need to teach children that Heather has a mommy and a daddy. That's a biological norm. That Heather has two mothers? Yeah, THAT needs to be taught, because hardly any children are actually going to encounter a situation like that.
You don't need to teach children that the boys are males, and the girls are females. They'll figure that out on their own when puberty hits, and before puberty hits they have a mother and a father at home modeling heterosexuality, because it's the heterosexuals doing the actual reproducing.
You don't need to teach children that they aren't guilty of the sins of long dead people who might have looked a bit like them. That's not actually something that spontaneously occurs to sane people, it has to be taught.
The left's doctrines don't organically transmit, so the left NEEDS indoctrination. The right doesn't.
Given how many people on this blog explain to you why you're wrong on any given day, you'd think you would at least be cured from the notion that your truth is inevitably right, as an inherent God Given truth.
You are the protector of the "truth"?
Seriously, learn the difference between asserting that somebody is wrong, and "explaining why" they're wrong.
It's simple enough: The right figures they can transmit their values just fine at home, all they really want is for the schools to refrain from subverting that transmission. They just want the schools to stick to teaching things like English and math, and skip the indoctrination entirely.
The left is determined to transmit their values to the right's children.
So the right doesn't NEED the schools to be right-wing indoctrination machines, they just need them to NOT be left-wing indoctrination machines.
And that's enough to explain why the right wants to shut off indoctrination in government schools, which are the default, but doesn't feel the need to prohibit it in private schools: Parents choose the private school, so it's not going to be subverting parental intent.
Now, politicians, as distinct from parents, actually DO want to use the schools to indoctrinate kids. That's "civics". But the right-wing politicians don't have indoctrination plans beyond that "civics" agenda.
Indoctrination is one of those irregular verbs...
"There is, perhaps, something of a contradiction between may red states' eagerness to impose right-wing orthodoxy in public schools and their simultaneous willingness to give vouchers to students attending private schools, with few or no ideological constraints. "
At least my thesis explains why this supposed contradiction isn't actually a contradiction: The right don't see themselves imposing an orthodoxy on the schools. They just see themselves as stopping the left from subverting parental efforts to transmit their own values.
That being the case, if the parents are picking the school, they don't have to worry about it, the parents will be picking a school that matches their own values.
The left also doesn't see itself as imposing orthodoxy on the schools. They're not the ones passing 'don't say gay' bills and school prayer bills.
I’m not going to defend school prayer bills, but nobody is passing “Don’t say gay” bills. That’s just a name the left applies to bills that do something else entirely, because if you honestly explained what the bills did, too few people would be outraged.
Here’s the Florida law that the left called “Don’t Say Gay”.
It’s mainly devoted to prohibiting the schools from keeping parents in the dark about what’s being done with their own children. It does have this provision, though:
“3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.”
So, you think the schools SHOULD be giving students in grade 3 or below instruction on sexual orientation, and have a policy of not letting the parents know?
No, they're the ones failing students for using the term "Biological Women" https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/uc-student-says-she-failed-assignment-for-using-term-biological-women/ar-AA1ca2DC
Frank "I love the "Biological Women"!!!!!
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"The left also doesn’t see itself as imposing orthodoxy on the schools. They’re not the ones passing ‘don’t say gay’ bills "
The left has to misrepresent the "dont say Gay " law
It only limits the discussion to age appropriate level.
It only limits the discussion to age appropriate level.
That's just a different way of saying "enforces orthodoxy".
But it's an 'orthodoxy' of omission, not commission, that's my point. And it really isn't honest to describe simply avoiding these topics altogether as "orthodoxy". It's just omission, that's all.
Right wing parents think they can handle any necessary 'indoctrination' themselves, and they just want the schools to butt out and teach academics. And nothing more.
I think this is a perfectly reasonable position. Let the schools just stay out of everything the least bit controversial, and stick to teaching literacy, numeracy, and so forth.
No it's not, it's requiring teachers to say X instead of Y.
I just linked to the law above, it does nothing of the sort.
You can drive a truck through 'age appropriate.'
Yeah, if you assume the law will be enforced in bad faith, it hardly even matters what the law says.
What?
Absent agency practice, you don't write laws relying on the good faith of the implementers. You want to be clear and directive, and not leave huge loopholes.
And this law is clear enough. It's not compelling saying X instead of Y, it's forbidding saying Y. Refuse to say X all day long, if you like.
.
Given how many people on this blog explain to you why you’re wrong on any given day,
Given who those 6-7 people are, it's no surprise Brett is entirely unfazed by your ridiculous assertion.
You don’t need to teach children that Heather has a mommy and a daddy. That’s a biological norm....they have a mother and a father at home modeling heterosexuality
Brett once again takes his own background and assumes it's universal.
Diversity of background exists, Brett. These days we realize that and teach to it. The primacy of white heteroness is not as much of a thing; that's not indoctrination, it's inclusivity. Of course you hate it.
Sarcastr0 -- if you want to send your kids to an all-gay, all-day school, school choice would let you do that. School choice involves empowering parents to do what THEY think is best for their kids.
Now I'd like to see some objective evaluation that they also are learning basic skills, and we have laws against things like statutory rape, but it's your right as a parent to bring your children up as you desire.
it’s your right as a parent to bring your children up as you desire.
This right exits, as it should. And is subject to plenty of limitations. As it should.
Sarcastr0, I don't assume my background is universal, but it damned well IS "normal".
"The primacy of white heteroness is not as much of a thing"
The primacy of "heteroness" is a biological reality. Virtually none of the Heathers at a school will have "two moms". And would you stop inserting race into every discussion?
The primacy of whiteness is a biological reality, that doesn't mean we neglect nonwhites.
I'm inserting race into the discussion because it's spot on why you're wrong and bad on sexuality. You're using the same arguments.
You're still against the right to gay marriage, and think the Bell Curve is legit science, so don't claim to speak for the people.
98% of the world's population is heterosexual. If that's not primacy, then what is?
You're inserting race into everything because "racist" is the only argument you know how to make, even if you do a shitty job of it every time. You have no way to make an argument without attacking strawmen and snarky asides with no basis (other than your vaunted magical telepathy).
How many blacks are in the military, Sarcastro?
"Given how many people on this blog explain to you why you’re wrong on any given day,"
You don't think that goes for you as well?
"Because of the very low odds that any one vote will make a difference, ballot box voters have little incentive to seek out information about policy issues, or to evaluate what they learn in a unbiased way. They are instead rationally ignorant, and often act as biased "political fans." That dynamic helps explain the incredible idiocy of many culture-war driven education policies. They aren't adopted through careful reasoning, but for the purpose of appealing to the raw emotions of political fans."
Oh, I just love it when our betters lecture us about how the unwashed masses lack "carefully-reasoned" opinions -- meaning, naturally, any opinions which differ from their own. You can ladle their condescension with a spoon.
I don't mind repeating myself on this score. The idea that if only people would just think about the issues, they'd vote properly! is such an odd combination of naivety and smugness that it draws my attention, every time.
Look, voting is a judgement call. It expresses one's values. It is an assignment of trust, a giving up of powers to another party. You can't reduce all that to a workbook or a homework assignment. It's not a simplistic matter of voters being "better informed" of your reasons why they should vote for your side.
Prof. Somin inserted "dubious" at least six times in this post. That's like writing "clearly" in a brief and hoping the Judge just takes your word for it, as opposed to recognizing the red flag signaling lack of real support for your argument. It's not just an appeal to authority, but to your own authority.
Not really about education at all, it's about another source of public funds for private profit. As public schools dwindle, watch quality erode in drives for cost-cuttings and savings in all but the most elite of private schools.
Odd how that will happen in education but failed to happen when communist countries privatized their grocery stores, failed to happen when states deregulated their liquor stores, and failed to happen in, well, every other actual example in history.
Education is not a commodity as in your examples.
This notion that education needs to be viewed or treated differently than other sectors of society is something I’ve heard repeatedly for about 30 years when I first started looking into the viability of vouchers for inner city school systems. One of the basic tenets of total quality management is that the system always wins. It doesn’t matter how many smart people you place into the system, or how much money you throw at the system…it will always win. Most large, inner city school systems have been broken for decades. Yet they remain unchanged and solidly in place. At this point, it’s probably safe to claim they represent, by their very nature, some of the most systemically racist systems in the country. Vouchers represent one of the very few forcing mechanisms that can act as a wedge for real change and the real possibility the current generation of inner city students receives a better education than has been on offer for the past 30 years.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
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