The Volokh Conspiracy
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Today in Supreme Court History: May 7, 1873
5/7/1873: Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase died. One month earlier, he dissented in the Slaughter-House Cases, and was the lone dissenter in Bradwell v. Illinois.
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Kelly v. United States, 590 U.S. — (decided May 7, 2020): the famous “blocked lanes on the GW Bridge” case which did such political damage to Chris Christie. Here, the Court threw out the wire fraud convictions of the officials who ordered the blocking because causing four days of traffic jams was not “obtaining money or property” from the Port Authority such as the statute requires.
United States v. Sineneng-Smith, 590 U.S. — (decided May 7, 2020: the Ninth Circuit had decided sua sponte to bring in amici to brief whether the statute criminalizing the encouragement of illegal immigration was Constitutional, an issue brought up by neither party. The Court held that this was improper and remanded to the Ninth Circuit to decide on the issues actually argued.
General Box Co. v. United States, 351 U.S. 159 (decided May 7, 1956): once a State donates its land to the federal government, the feds don’t have to obey State procedures on notice when it appropriates timber already grown there by a private party.
Screws v. United States (aptly named), 327 U.S. 91 (decided May 7, 1945): defendant sheriff had beaten a black man to death. Conviction under Ku Klux Klan Act vacated because no intent to deprive victim of his civil rights. (!) Opinion written by William O. Douglas. (!!)
Blanchi v. Morales, 262 U.S. 170 (decided May 7, 1923): Puerto Rico (“Porto Rico”) statute allowing summary foreclosures was Constitutional. Very short opinion; the Court held that it was such a clear and simple question of law that it did not require briefs; it decided on the existing record.
I’ve always thought it was odd to hammer “murder” into the “civil rights violation” hole, but by now it is as American as apple pie and Walmart.
You don’t think keeping one’s life is a civil right? The Founders and the Framers both wrote it into their documents. “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” and the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.
No, the right not to be murdered is not one of those contemplated to be protected by the relevant laws. Maybe it should be, but it is illegitimate legal casuistry to pretend that it is.
Au contraire. The right not to be murdered without due process of law by state actors was and is protected by law. The statute charged in Screws provided:
325 U.S. 91, 93 (1945).
Was he let off on murder as a travesty of justice, and this was all decent folk had left to punch him with?
“…shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.”
Yeah, clearly murder was the offence they had in mind. My bad.
The original hammering was done to bypass local legal systems that were determined to not punish the crime. The civil rights violation wasn’t the murder, it was the EP clause violation of not appropriately responding to the murder.
Of course, once the federal government finds any excuse to get its nose under the edge of the tent, pretty soon you’ve got the whole federal government in the tent with you.
No, Brett, Screws did not involve a deprivation of equal protection. It involved the deprivation of life by governmental actors without affording procedural due process.
The problem with the Federals is they no longer fear the people.
They have broken our families, made us unhealthy and poorer, put our lives at risk of feral humans whom we’re supposed to worship, and are trying to Finish the Job with their Planetary Health Diet.
Why didn’t any Texans kill the mall shooter?? Because Texas is full of nothing but steers and queers!
Gun free zone.
The Indianapolis mall apparently wasn’t a gun free zone…but in Texas malls are gun free zones because of all of the queers in the state legislature?
“I’ve always thought it was odd to hammer ‘murder’ into the ‘civil rights violation’ hole, but by now it is as American as apple pie and Walmart.”
The gravamen of the offense in Screws was not murder, but deprivation of a constitutional right under color of law. The right at issue was the right to procedural due process of law which must be provided before a governmental actor deprives a person of life.
OK, how about this: https://nypost.com/2023/05/06/protestors-clash-with-nypd-over-jordan-neely-chokehold-death/
Does the train have to stop when protesters jump in front of it?
Do you want to live in a society were it doesn’t?
There would of course be no such obligation if the “protesters” were a credible threat to the operator or others on the train.
Sure, it the protesters were autobots.
I have no idea what an “autobot” is, but, no, my comment is not remotely limited in that fashion. I was in fact thinking of driving through a mob of BLM rioters, when you are entitled to kill and dismember as many as necessary to escape injury.
Do you know what Decepticons are?
Should I care about your argot? Why?
Does that make you an argot-not?
Of course, you would have those kinds of fantasies.
They ARE a threat to everyone on the train.
When you put a train into emergency braking, you not only do (often considerable) damage to the track but create a situation where it is very easy for it to derail. And with fairly rigid tunnel walls, it’s going to be a whole lot less fun in a train car that goes sideways as it’s gonna get crushed, along with everyone inside it.
And with answer to Nige, yes — if someone *knowingly & intentionally* jumps in front of a train, I have no problem with the train killing said idiot.
When someone knowingly and intentionally jumps in front of a train, it’s a suicide attempt.
How is the strangulation of Mr. Neely germane to a discussion of civil rights deprivation? Mr. Penny did not act under color of state law when he applied the chokehold.
It was self defense. We have a right to defend ourselves even if we are White.
Self-defense??? As I understand it, New York juries are instructed:
https://lawofselfdefense.com/jury-instruction/ny-justification-use-of-deadly-physical-force-in-defense-of-a-person/
How in the world did Mr. Neely present a threat of deadly physical force against Mr. Penny?
As I understand it that is what Neely threatened, and Mr. Penny reasonably believed him capable of it.
Not that I like that jury instruction. One ought to b able to defend oneself with potentially deadly force against a level of injury probably less than mortal.
edit: From your cite: “DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE means physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury.“ Why do you believe Neely was incapable of that? (And not just to Penny, btw.)
Apparently Neely was recently in jail for punching some old lady and seriously injuring her. I disagree a little, I think you’ve got to take care of yourself but sometimes a few people might die before deadly force is necessary like in the Indianapolis mall killing…it sucks but this young man could end up getting in serious trouble for doing the right thing.
No, it should not be necessary to let someone actually kill anyone before you can legitimately use deadly force to stop him, so long as the threat is clear.
The Indianapolis hero is probably the best case scenario when guns are involved in which the active shooter killed two people before the civilian took him out. Civilians can ask someone questions but a civilian can’t detain or immobilize someone before violence has taken place.
@Queenie: Not necessarily. Sometimes the acting crazy may call for immediate deadly force. As, perhaps, with Neely.
You misunderstand what you read. Of course Neely was capable of that. Anyone other than a small child or a quadriplegic is capable of causing serious physical injury. That’s the definition of deadly physical force, not the test for when it can be used.
You can’t use deadly physical force yourself because someone is “capable of” causing serious physical injury. You can only use deadly physical force yourself if (you reasonably believe that) the other person is actually using — or about to imminently use — such force.
Which is what Penny apparently had good cause to believe.
Now apply this to Ashli Babbitt.
‘Apparently.’
I don’t care what you “understand,” Gandydancer (or what you think you understand). What facts suggested that Mr. Neely was imminently likely to use deadly physical force against Mr. Penny or anyone else?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-subway-death-what-we-know/index.html
Ipse dixit assertions don’t feed the bulldog.
How in the world is a chokehold “deadly force”?
A GUN is deadly force. A death by chokehold is misadventure.
You might want to ask Derek Chauvin about that.
What kind of fucking stupid question is that in the context of someone who in fact killed someone else with a chokehold?
Forget it Jake.
It’s Chinatown.
Forget it, Nieporent. As the saying goes, ‘Never argue with stupid. They’ll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.’
“How in the world is a chokehold ‘deadly force’”?
Well, duh. It is deadly force when it results in another person’s death.
You are making an anachronistic assumption, not guilty. Under the new Rittenhouse Doctrine you need only meet the following elements:
1. Be White
2. Be scared
3. Fire
If “it” can, yes.
The bridge case is a warning for those who think because Trump did something wrong he must be guilty of a crime. In cases involving public corruption there are people who deserve to be savaged by a pack of angry lawyers but end up acquitted.
Not just in cases of public corruption.
It’s not clear to me that it wasn’t here just the wrong charge.
Politicians doing the usual thing, using the power of government to hurt each other.
Nothing to see here, folks. They just got caught.
John Carr…I remember the coverage of that incident as it occurred in the People’s Republic of NJ. My sense is that prosecutors could not find the right statute (might not have existed) to punish political payback. The mayor of Weehauken & Jersey City (I think) at the time were royal PITAs to Governor Christie.
I also think Governor Christie did not know the specifics, but he certainly knew that the Mayors were going to have their tail twisted. That is how politics works in the People’s Republic.
I agree with the dissent in General Box:
“We have at the root of this case a question of Louisiana law whether the timber grown on batture is ‘property’ and, if so, whether it may be confiscated without any opportunity to the owner to salvage or remove it. The timber concededly is of value. It is bought and sold and plays a significant role in the conduct of commercial enterprises.1 The Court apparently concedes that the timber is ‘property’ within the meaning of the Fifth Amendment. Otherwise the Court would not reserve decision on whether the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment has been violated. If the timber is ‘property’ so far as the Due Process Clause is concerned, it would seem to be ‘property’ within the meaning of the Just Compensation Clause of the same Amendment. The question then comes down to whether the timber may be confiscated without any notice to the owner. If Louisiana could not confiscate the timber, then the United States certainly may not. For the United States has succeeded to such ownership as Louisiana has.”
Federal government or not, it only acquires those rights in a property that the owner had to sell…
The latest shooter is your typical disaffected loser male, 30s, living with mom and dad, and probably unable to get laid. Liberals, you have blood on your hands.
Liberals, you have blood on your hands.
Why?
Because they’ve abandoned 3 generations of White males.
Where were they abandoned, and how? Does this mean, as usual, that the conservatives have fuck-all to offer as an alternative, even to their most twisted versions of straw-liberals?
‘Hey look, we told him everything that was wrong with his life was the fault of liberals, women and minorities, then we made it ridiculously easy to get a gun, so now we’re blaming liberals because he believed us and armed himself.’
White males? Aren’t you one of those who blames the government for ‘black culture’ as well?
Seems to me if you’re going to blame the government for everything, take advantage and don’t call out whites as oppressed like you’re a Stormfront refugee.
Whom do you blame for black culture? The blacks?
What is ‘black culture?’ Medea? Toni Morrison?
Lots of criminality, among other things. E.g., 64%[!] of race-known murderers in 2021, iirc.
Crime is a ‘culture’ now, I see.
As opposed to what?
Declining.
I’m interested in this guy’s manifesto…it’s so much more fun and interesting when they have a manifesto!
If he does, it’s not likely to be released. Still waiting on Hale’s.
That white males are discriminated against by government is just a fact.
As is the government’s contributions to black dysfunctionality.
That there’s some “advantage” to be perceived in these observations is lunacy.
Why, a white man can’t even be president no more.
Biden did, so where’s my cut?
Throw your hat in for the Republican nomination, why don’t ya.
Nah, that’s more work. A white man is President and I want my white man cut now, like blacks got Obamaphones.
Lose your home and your job, travel back to when Obama was president, then maybe you’ll qualify.
Trump gave white retired coal miners $10 billion for supporting him…you should have put coal dust on your face and gone to a Trump rally to get a cut of that!
You do realize that this is Obama’s 3rd term…
No. There’s lots of weird things that you lot take as a given that everybody else in the world think of as extremely stupid.
The UMass Board of TTEEs surely abandoned Dr. Ed, with a view towards protecting students and staff from Dr. Ed’s brain.
Oh, and you cannot see Old North Church from School Street, Mainiac. Gold only knows where you come up with your inane assertions.
I don’t know what dimension of reality that Brother the Moron exists in, but if one goes to The Omni Parker House, which is on the corner of School & Tremont Streets, and looks on the side where one can see downhill, one *can* see the Old North Church. An intrepid individual can also see a Boston Redevelopment Authority plaque indicating how the BRA preserved this view for future generations.
$100 for a photo?
According to Lefty you are a racist bitter clinger if you believe your own lying eyes.
Reports are it was a gang banger shouting revenge for White sins.
In 60 short years, leftists have:
– Systematically destroyed the nuclear family, by promoting subsidized single parenthood, no fault divorce, homosexual “marriage” and adoption, and so on.
– In the name of globalization, outsourced our manufacturing jobs while simultaneously importing hordes of third world immigrants, all intended to decimate the value of labor.
– Taught white boys that they’re evil while promoting destructive black power and other racial ideologies that seek to undermine the West.
– Promoted feminism which has taught women that they “don’t need a man.”
– Debased the culture by promoting abortion on demand, transgender propaganda, and other woke filth.
– Debased the currency by printing trillions of dollars intended to benefit the globalist masters who own most of the assets.
In short, leftists have removed all of the society’s safety barriers and now are shocked, just SHOCKED, that cars are sliding off the road.
All of the above has led to the creation of millions of disaffected young men, who can’t find suitable wives (because of the aforementioned feminist ideology), can’t find suitable jobs (because of the steps taken to undermine the value of labor), and who are taught from a young age that their race is evil.
Meanwhile, the little money they do earn isn’t enough to buy or rent even decent housing because of the money printing and other financial engineering described above.
Liberals, you own all of this. Time to start some deep introspection.
This is what people like you and Fox News and OAN etc blare in their ears day in and day out until they believe it, at any rate, while glorifying guns and promising a new civil war when you can round up the liberals. Sooner or later, boom.
Don’t you mean “Faux News?” Where’s the obligatory reference to the Koch brothers?
You can insert those yourself, if you like.
Tell us more about this shooter’s manifesto. And why he didn’t use an AR-15. Your Ouija board is still working, isn’t it?
Read hoppy’s comment, he seems to have the template handy.
YOU are the one telling us the shooter watched Fox News and OAN, so why should I consult a less knowledgeable source?
You’re TERRIBLE at reading.
The Democrats perfected generational dependence on the blacks and have been diligently exporting their policies to the rest of us.
Their goal is to put all of us on the same sort of plantations they’ve held blacks onto for generations.
They, of course, will be exempt from their rules.
Yeah, but you’re a racist anti-semitic piece of shit, so who cares?
Are you referring to Gandydancer or Mr. Ed?
Nevermind
BCD. I haven’t seen either of those two say anything anti-semitic.
Does anyone know the screen name he used when commenting at the Volokh Conspiracy?
How far from Allen to the campus of South Texas College Of Law Houston?
As always, lots of speculation in the face of very few facts.
He probably used LawTalkingGuy or Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland.
Kirkland: “The Associated Press named the gunman as Mauricio Garcia, 33,”
That’s a WASP name….
Dunno about that, but according to Nige he had feelings of oppression fed by Fox News and OAN and was convinced to buy a gun and start shooting his minority oppressors by nefarious GOP grievance-mongers.
Absolutely terrible at reading.
Salmon P. Chase had quite a multi-faceted career.
Governor (Ohio) Senator (Ohio) Secretary of the Treasury and Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court.
Instrumental in the development of paper currency (his picture appeared on a $1 and $10,000 note) and in having “In God We Trust” placed on US coins.
In God we trust? That cultural phrase that has no religion in it at all no sir! ?
Are you trying to make a point? If so, what is it?
Will Republicans cut their losses with Justice Thomas, or take their chances on riding that train all the way to the septic tank?
I don’t know about septic tanks, but I hear you have a lot of experience with poop chutes.
As some Democrat said, “It’s the economy, Stupid.”
Yeah, by “Stupid” he meant you, Artie.
I get the feeling some of the obsolete, racist, gay-bashing, immigrant-hating, homophobic culture war casualties who flock to this white, male, right-wing blog are never going to like me.
I am content.
I like you Artie. I think it takes an extraordinary individual to run the same schtick for years and years and never manage to improve it.
I’ll bet Thomas knows who leaked the Dobbs decision…
… And might just tell…
stopped priveleging = more equality for people not them.
The indictment did not allege a denial or equal protection. According to the SCOTUS plurality opinion:
325 U.S. 91, 93-94 (1945) [emphasis added].
One way or the other, it seems obvious that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits extrajudicial killings of Black people by law enforcement and that a Sheriff who under color of law perpetrates an extrajudicial killing of a Black man has committed the necessary civil rights violation to permit a conviction under that statute.
Quoting the bullshit doesn’t improve it. The crime was murder, and punishing murder is a State function.
Your attempted substitutions of snark for logic are merely tedious.
Personal responsibility doesn’t eliminate cause-and-effect.
And I presume that QE would have gone down to Selma, Birmingham, or Beloxi a century ago and said the same thing to the Black males there, then.
Hint, governmental action abates any concept of “self responsibility.”
No, Gandydancer, the crime there was not murder. The petitioners in Screws were convicted of the federal misdemeanors of depriving Robert Hall of life without due process under color of state law and conspiring to do so. (Under today’s law the penalty for such conduct resulting in death would be imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or death. 18 U.S.C. § 242.)
discriminated against = more equality in LeftySpeak
Not saying that that applied here. Maybe the guy was an angry tranny.
Why only “black people”?
…and when will the effects ever end?
As Tom Sowell repeatedly pointed out you can’t blame slavery and Jim Crow for effects that got worse after they ended. But the ignorance is strong and determined in you, Lefty.
Statistically unlikely, but so what if it was?
Hey moron, do you know how threaded comments work?
The context of reply was the threaded comments. Take a look at this:
What word do you see appear in that comment AND in my reply to that very exact comment?
Who created and ran those systems?
And that justifes treating a different group like shyte for 3 generations?
I expect black people would like to know, too.
When their IQs are no longer genetically lower.
I was discussing the facts of the case.
I think what we might say about other cases depends on what theory we use.
He didn’t say “black people”. He said “Black people”. As opposed to “white people”, who don’t get capitalized because they don’t count for as much. And don’t have a Federal right to life, apparently.
I’ll try for $500.
Who are Southern Democrats?
What does race have to do with “what theory we use”?
Who created the institutions that caused all this harm?
Who ran those institutions?
Why haven’t the current institutions been able to solve harms?
Who runs these current institutions?
Atleast you got the capitalization right.
*bzzzzz* Wrong answer. I’m a “white people” person and do none of those things.
No you couldn’t if you gave a damn about giving a meaningful response, jackass. What I pointed out was that “white people” is a meaningless one.
Was it white people? I can never get right the architects of institutional slavery in America
At the US end, slaveholders. Across the Middle Passage, slave traders. At the African end, various predatory African kingdoms. SOME of these were white people, others not. Lots and lots of white people were uninvolved.
What do the data say about IQ and race?
Guess the party of science isn’t so into science when it contradicts their agenda.
The fat guy around here was going on and on about Kelo not Keto.
No, let’s not “bring up” IQ and race. Hatefacts are racist! Not noticing hatefacts is what you do when you’re “into Science”! Notice that only racist losers notice hatefacts!
Bring it up all you like. Right wingers seem set to make mass shootings about black people and crime rates, perhaps abandoning the mental health angle since people expect some sort of accesible health care, add IQ to that and you have the perfect idenitity politics culture war shit-show to go with the abortion shit-show and the anti-trans shit-show, encaspualting everyhting the right has to offer America today – horrible culture-war shit-shows instead of anything remotely resembling a coherent political vision.
It’s right wingers promoting drag queen story hour and Whiteness as a disease? Who knew?
It’s the white people turning up at drag queen story hours armed to the teeth wearing paramilitary fatigues and throwing the occasional sieg heil that are acting like a disease.
AS I SAID, the crime was murder and the repackaging of it as something else is bullshit. Why are you so dense as to have not gotten my point the first time?
Remember when slavery was legal in America?? I’ll never forget.
What was his comment about?
As I’ve already pointed out, government abuse causes effects that government is responsible for irrespective of personal responsibility. What part of what I wrote used words too big for a dimwit like you to understand?
As to thus instance and argument I abjure the word “abandonment” as anyway misleading, and for all I know this shooter was just an angry tranny possibly unaffected by Lefty-influenced government abuse of straight white males.
Then hoppy’s hypothesis would be in error.
Jeez, you’re stupid.
They are tearing down statues now just because they are White.
It’s weird because that means we will only have statues left of blacks doing sports. lol
You mean like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington?
Yeah, there are more important things about them than a few slaves.
Like Kamala Harris???
The slavery where one WHITE man died for every 10 slaves freed?
“now”?
“Homicide Trends in the United States, 1900-74”
And the table on p.196 shows the 1970’s rate (which is as far as it goes) exceeding the 1930’s rate after a long dip.
You’re a pathetic clown.
Perhaps the Queen would like to enlighten us with the number of MedFlight Helicopters there were in the 1930s?
And the number of Level III Trauma Centers there were in the 1930s?
Or perhaps the extent to which Emergency Medicine was a medical specialty in the 1930s? (Hint: It wasn’t.)
And as to police officers — vests save lives. It took about 20 years for cops to actually realize that, but now even they accept this.
Another hint: Deaths from severe weather (relative to exposure to risk) are considerably less than they were a century ago due to (a) satellites, (b) doppler radar, and (c) television. We now have TV weathermen able to show an approaching tornado to people in its immediate path — that wasn’t possible a century ago.
For at least the third time, the law clearly wan’t about punishing murder. Just look at the penalty.
The history does, but the TEXT says nothing about only “Black people” getting protections. Which was what was questioned. Please try harder to catch up to the normal people.
Wow, it’s “fragile” to notice that your getting killed doesn’t count?
Shooting people dead in a mall is like a civil rights march?
Well, that’s you covered.
That doesn’t even parse.
Jeez, you’re stupid. Ignorant, too.
Well you’re not very bright.
From your perch in Stupidland you are not remotely qualified to judge that question.
Think you might be a decepticon.
Funny that you think anything I said would require me to address hoppy’s formulation when my comment was about government’s responsibility for the effects its policies produce irrespective of whether those policies were neglect or active abuse, but let you be you even if being you is idiocy personified.
AS compared to females males are much more violent. That the correct term for that is “culture” is non-obvious.
But I’d guess you prefer that black violence be explained by “culture” rather than, say, genetics. No?
Hey, knock yourself out, your explanations of ‘black violence’ are sure to be… edifying.
Are you and Nige the same person? I thought that “So….[followed by utter nonsense]” formulation was HIS tic. But here you are inserting a description of “male culture” in my imagined mouth immediately after I denied that “culture” was the appropriate term. Does your IQ reach the room temperature in centigrade?
Among other things black criminality got worse. And, no, it wan’t the effect of slave culture or Jim Crow causing subcultures that organically got worse after slavery and Jim Crow went away.
It was because after moving to the cities to escape Jim Crow their neghbourhoods got turned into ghettos and flooded with drugs because the cities were run and policed by racists.
Nige,
What party has historically controlled these urban centers?
Racist parties.
If Washington’s and Jefferson’s slaves aren’t disqualifying I don’t see why Lee’s should be. After all, he was on the right side in the War of Northern Aggression. I’m not demanding you tear down Lincoln’s statues even if he did start a war that killed a million Americans as well as fucked up our federal system of government. We were supposed to have gotten over fighting that one.
It’s YOUR link offered to prove YOUR stated point. Which it obviously doesn’t.
Other than that I can’t tell who is arguing with whom about what, Reason’s formatting being so bad and the subject being of little obvious intrinsic interest.
Don’t project. My derision of you and your ilk is not experienced by me as victimization.
“As to THIS instance and argument I abjure the word ‘abandonment’ as anyway misleading…”
That statement does not of course commit me to exclude neglect from the list of things that can cause government responsibility for the result.
Damn, you’re stupid. Maybe even as stupid as Nige, though I wouldn’t have thought that possible.
You are deeply confused, as I have said nothing about Jim Crow and homicide rates. Anyway, your link (which, I repeat, showed no evidence for the claim which immediately preceded it) shows a drop in homicide rates from the 1930s to the 1940s while Jim Crow was unchanged, so what was your point again?
No, the crime was not murder (although the underlying facts may have constituted murder under state law). The same conduct may violate more than one criminal statute.
Any criminal offense is composed of various elements. Where the same act or transaction constitutes a violation of two distinct statutory provisions, the test to be applied to determine whether there are two offenses or only one is whether each provision requires proof of an additional fact which the other does not. “A single act may be an offense against two statutes; and if each statute requires proof of an additional fact which the other does not, an acquittal or conviction under either statute does not exempt the defendant from prosecution and punishment under the other.” Blockburger v. United States, 284 U.S. 299, 304 (1932).
To break it down, murder, unlike the federal statute charged in Screws, does not require that the accused be shown to have acted under color of state law. The civil rights statute charged in Screws does not require the death of the victim.
To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, a litigant goes to court with the law that we have, not the law that one may wish we had.
When did the draft start?????