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Court Upholds Removal of Child From Parents, Related to Child's Transgender Identity
The facts are complicated, and involve a good deal more than just disagreement as to gender identity; but it seems to me like an important controversy.
From In the Matter of A.C., decided today by the Indiana Court of Appeals (Judge Terry Crone, joined by Judges Nancy Vaidik and Robert Altice):
M.C. (Mother) and J.C. (Father) … appeal the trial court's dispositional order (the Dispositional Order) following their child A.C.'s … admission that Child is a child in need of services (CHINS) pursuant to Indiana Code Section 31-34-1-6 (CHINS-6) because Child was substantially endangering Child's own health….
[O]n May 11, 2021, DCS received a report alleging that Mother was verbally and emotionally abusing then-sixteen-year-old Child by using rude and demeaning language toward Child regarding Child's transgender identity, and as a result, Child had thoughts of self-harm. On May 21, 2021, DCS received a second report alleging that the Parents were verbally and emotionally abusing Child because they do not accept Child's transgender identity, the abuse was getting worse, and the Parents were being mean to Child due to Child's transgender identity. A DCS family case manager (FCM) investigated these reports, met with the Parents, Child, and Child's siblings, and spoke by phone to a representative from Child's residential school.
The FCM prepared a preliminary inquiry report (PIR), which indicated the following: Mother and Child both stated that Child had been suffering from an eating disorder for the past year but had yet to be evaluated by a medical professional; the Parents had withdrawn Child from school, and DCS was unaware of the family's intent to enroll Child in a new school for the upcoming school year; Child had been in therapy, but the Parents had discontinued it; Child did not feel mentally and/or emotionally safe in the home; Mother said things such as "[Child's preferred name] is the bitch that killed my son"; and Child "would be more likely to have thoughts of self-harm and suicide if [Child] were to return to the family home due to mental and emotional abuse." The PIR also indicated that Mother stated that the family was planning to work with a doctor at a clinic for eating disorders, but Mother refused to sign any consents so that DCS could verify any medical concerns or past therapy services.
On May 28, 2021, DCS filed a proposed CHINS petition in the trial court, alleging that Child was a CHINS on two bases: Child's physical or mental condition was seriously impaired or seriously endangered due to the Parents' neglect pursuant to Indiana Code Section 31-34-1-1 (CHINS-1) and/or Child's physical or mental health was seriously endangered due to injury by the Parents' acts or omissions pursuant to Section 31-34-1-2 (CHINS-2).
On June 2, 2021, the trial court held a combined initial and detention hearing, at which it found that there was probable cause to believe that Child was a CHINS and that Child's detainment was necessary to safeguard Child's health. At the close of the hearing, the trial court cautioned the Parents to avoid discussing Child's transgender identity during visitation. Following the hearing, the court issued the Initial/Detention Order finding that it was in Child's best interest to be removed from the home due to the Parents' "inability, refusal or neglect to provide shelter, care, and/or supervision at the present time." The Initial/Detention Order also ordered that Child keep the current appointments to address Child's eating disorder and for a psychological evaluation and that the Parents "have unsupervised visitation so long as certain topics are not addressed."
On October 26, 2021, DCS filed a motion for leave to amend the CHINS petition to add an allegation that Child was substantially endangering Child's own health and that Child was a CHINS pursuant to the CHINS-6 statute. The motion indicates that the amendment was appropriate because Child's eating disorder was worsening, Child had lost "a significant amount of weight," Child was throwing away and hiding food and neglecting to eat full meals, and Child did not believe that Child had an eating disorder, had lost weight, or needed treatment. The Parents did not object to the amendment. The trial court granted the motion.
On November 15, 2021, the trial court held a hearing, at which the parties informed the court that they had reached an agreement that DCS would dismiss the CHINS-1 and CHINS-2 allegations, unsubstantiate and expunge the record of any reports related to the Parents, and proceed under the CHINS-6 statute. Child then admitted to being a CHINS-6, and the Parents verified that they had no objection to Child's admission. The court found a factual basis for the admission, accepted the admission, and adjudicated Child a CHINS.
Following the hearing, the court issued an order on the amended CHINS petition, finding that Child was a CHINS-6 because Child admitted that Child had an eating disorder that jeopardized Child's health and the eating disorder was "fueled partly because of [Child's] self-isolation from [the Parents] which is a behavior which is likely to reoccur" if Child is placed back in the Parents' home. The court also found that remaining in the Parents' care would be contrary to Child's welfare based on the allegations that Child admitted to and ordered that Child should continue to be removed from the Parents' home….
The court concluded that "[t]he trial court's decision to continue Child's placement outside the Parents' home is not clearly erroneous":
As the court emphasized, this is an extreme case where Child has reacted to a disagreement with the Parents by developing an eating disorder and self-isolating, which seriously endangers Child's physical, emotional, and mental well-being. The court's decision to continue Child's removal was not a response to the Parents' acts or omissions relating to their beliefs regarding transgender individuals, and the court was not treating the case as if it were based on a CHINS-1 or a CHINS-2 adjudication. Rather, the trial court's focus was clearly on Child's medical and psychological health needs, and the court's decision to continue Child's placement outside the home is consistent with the CHINS-6 statute. We find no error here….
The court then moved on to reject the parents' constitutional arguments, starting with the parental rights:
A parent has a fundamental right to raise his or her child without undue influence by the state. "Indeed, the courts of this state have long and consistently held that the right to raise one's children is essential, basic, more precious than property rights, and within the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment[.]" However, "that right is limited by the State's compelling interest in protecting the welfare of children." "[T]he State has the authority under its parens patriae power to intervene when parents neglect, abuse, or abandon their children."
The Parents assert that the State does not have a compelling interest because they have not neglected, abused, or abandoned Child. We disagree. The unchallenged CHINS-6 adjudication establishes that the State has a compelling interest in protecting Child's welfare. As previously noted, the CHINS-6 adjudication establishes that Child substantially endangers Child's own health and needs care, treatment, and rehabilitation that Child is not receiving, and that the coercive intervention of the court is necessary to ensure that Child engages in needed treatment. As our supreme court has observed, the CHINS element that the care, treatment, or rehabilitation that the child needs is unlikely to be provided or accepted without the coercive intervention of the court "guards against unwarranted State interference in family life." …
It rejected the parents' religious freedom arguments:
At the initial hearing, Father testified that the Parents cannot affirm Child's transgender identity or use Child's preferred pronouns based on their sincerely held religious beliefs. On appeal, the Parents contend that "the state's actions clearly burdened [their] religious beliefs by forcing them to choose between (1) violating their religious beliefs by affirming their child's transgender ideology or (2) losing custody of [Child] with the knowledge that the state's placement would directly contradict their religious beliefs." We disagree that the Dispositional Order created such a choice.
As discussed in Section 2, the Dispositional Order was based on Child's medical and psychological needs and not on the Parents' disagreement with Child's transgender identity. We observe that at the dispositional hearing, the FCM testified that it was not DCS's position to continue Child's removal from home if the Parents continued to exercise their religious views by affirming their view of Child's transgender identity. The FCM explained that it "was not a matter of who's right or who's wrong […], it's just more of a matter of ensuring [Child's] safety." She also stated that it is "DCS's hope that family therapy will help to rectify any conflict between parents and child so that child can safely return home." She attested that DCS had not made any decision in the case based on the Parents' religious beliefs. Additionally, Mother acknowledged that no one from DCS ever made a statement to her indicating that DCS staff disapproved of the Parents' religious beliefs.
Thus, Child's continued removal from the home was not based on the fact that the Parents did not accept Child's transgender identity, and reunification is not contingent on the Parents violating their religious beliefs and affirming Child's transgender identity. We conclude that the Dispositional Order does not impose a substantial burden on the Parents' free exercise of religion.
Even if the Parents were able to demonstrate that the Dispositional Order imposes a substantial burden on their religious freedom, their claim that Child's continued removal from the home violates the Free Exercise Clause would fail. The United States Supreme Court has observed that "neither rights of religion nor rights of parenthood are beyond limitation" and that "the state has a wide range of power for limiting parental freedom and authority in things affecting the child's welfare; and … this includes, to some extent, matters of conscience and religious conviction." Simply put, "[t]he right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose … the child … to ill health or death." Thus, protecting a child's health and welfare is well recognized as a compelling interest justifying state action that is contrary to a parent's religious beliefs. See Jehovah's Witnesses v. King Cnty. Hosp. Unit No. 1 (W.D. Wash. 1967) (concluding that government may order that child be given blood transfusion over parents' religious objection), aff'd, 390 U.S. 598 (1968) (one sentence affirmation); In re Sampson (N.Y. 1972) (affirming court's order for blood transfusion necessary to perform required surgery on child's deformed face over parent's religious objection); Schmidt v. Mut. Hosp. Servs., Inc. (Ind. Ct. App. 2005) ("[A] parent's decision to refuse lifesaving medical treatment for a minor child [based on the parent's religious principles] must yield to the State's interest in protecting the health and welfare of the child.").
The CHINS-6 adjudication and the factual basis establish that Child's health was substantially endangered and that the care, treatment, and rehabilitation would likely not occur without the court intervention. Thus, the State has a compelling interest in protecting Child's physical and mental health.
In addition, Child's removal from the home is narrowly tailored to serve the State's compelling interest based on the same analysis that supports our conclusion that continued removal from the home is in Child's best interest. The FCM testified that maintaining Child's placement outside the home is essential to focus on treating Child's eating disorder and providing therapy, and Child's mental health evaluations both showed that Child suffered from significant psychological disorders and conditions. Although Child was placed outside the home, Parents have unsupervised visitation with Child. Therefore, we conclude that the Dispositional Order does not violate the Free Exercise Clause.
And the court rejected the parents' free speech claim:
[T]he trial court informed the Parents that it would continue to enforce its earlier order requiring them to refrain from discussing Child's transgender identity during visitation. The Parents objected on First Amendment grounds and asserted that they "would need to be able to have that conversation with their child at some point." The court explained,
I am leaving that Order in place at this time. I don't believe it is a first amendment issue under the circumstances of this case. You are certainly entitled to your opinion on that and your objection is noted. [B]ut if that discussion is had within the family therapy that is being Ordered[,] then that is perfectly alright to have those discussions[.] [B]ut during visitations I am Ordering that that topic not be discussed until further Order of the Court…. I am going to need a therapist or someone to tell me it is a safe conversation … and I am just not sure it's in the best interest of [Child] to have that conversation at this point yet.
On appeal, the Parents contend that the restriction of this topic during visitation violates their freedom of expression…. However, "[i]t is well established that not all speech is afforded the same protection under the First Amendment." "[S]peech concerning public affairs" receives heightened protection because it "is more than self-expression; it is the essence of self-government.'" "In contrast, speech on matters of purely private concern is of less First Amendment concern."
In re Paternity of G.R.G. (Ind. Ct. App. 2005), provides guidance in balancing a parent's free speech rights and the welfare of the child. There, the court concluded that an order restraining the parents from discussing their disputes with the child was not an impermissible prior restraint for two reasons. First, the court reasoned that the order focused solely on private speech rather than speech that was important to "the marketplace of ideas." Second, the court explained that the order reasonably furthered the child's best interests:
The order in the case before us did not preclude Father and Mother from disagreeing with each other. Nor did it preclude Father from discussing with any other third party his disputes with Mother. Rather, it obviously reflects the trial court's reasonable belief that exposing G.R.G. to such matters would not be in the child's best interests.
{In a recent case, another panel of this Court upheld an order prohibiting each parent from disparaging the other in their child's presence, concluding that "the order furthers the compelling State interest in protecting the best interest of [the child] and does not violate the First Amendment." Israel v. Israel (Ind. Ct. App. 2022), trans. pending.}
The order in this case, like the order in G.R.G., involves only the Parents' private speech with Child rather than public speech. Moreover, the Parents' contention that the State "did not have a compelling interest in protecting the welfare of the child because the parents were already doing so" fails once again. The CHINS-6 adjudication establishes that the State has a compelling interest in protecting Child's physical and psychological health.
We also find the restriction narrowly tailored to address the State's compelling interest. Child was adjudicated a CHINS because Child has an eating disorder that jeopardizes Child's health. The trial court recognized that Child's eating disorder and self-isolation were connected to the discord at home regarding Child's transgender identity. Thus, the limitation of discussion of this topic directly targets the State's compelling interest in addressing Child's eating disorder and psychological health. Further, the order is narrowly tailored because it restricts the Parents from discussing the topic with Child only during visitation but permits the topic to be discussed in therapy, which permits the family to work on conflict management so that they will eventually be able to safely talk about it outside family therapy. Accordingly, we conclude that the order restricting conversation of this topic outside of family therapy is a permissible prior restraint.
Congratulations to Robert J. Henke, who represented the state.
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This is outrageous. I hope the parents will appeal and win.
Any government that upholds the "right" of a juvenile to make life-altering choices like transgender treatment is the real danger to that child. Let them make their choice if they still want it after they're 18.
I skimmed most of it, and did not see anything relating to transgender mutilation, only Mother screaming at Child about transgenderism or whatever it's called. The face-saving compromise of pretending the only problem is the eating disorder was a cute sidestep.
I agree that transgender mutilation of a child is appalling. I also wonder, if they had not settled on the face-saving compromise and it had gone to a full-blown trial, if the parents would have tried to drag in teachers for feeding transgender propaganda and pushing Child into a psychological corner.
Likewise. In fact,
"Another report was prepared by a psychologist and sex researcher who reviewed Child’s records. That doctor opined that Child may be suffering from borderline personality disorder (BPD) rather than gender dysphoria and explained that BPD is associated with eating disorders. Id. at 143. He also opined that Child’s “reported features have few similarities with the populations who respond well to transition, but many significant similarities with other phenomena, such as BPD, who respond best to other therapies.”"
The boy is anorexic, and being reminded by his parents that he's not a girl apparently aggravates it.
Well, thank goodness Brett is here to pick the correct expert and ignore the finder of fact!
Brett has a child about this kid's age, or a bit younger. I hope for Brett's child's sake that he doesn't prove to be queer or trans, because Brett's comments here make clear that he would be just as abusive and pointlessly vindictive as the parents described in the OP.
I take it you're the sort of person who'd give an anorexic dieting tips? There's a fine line between understanding that somebody who's mentally ill actually DOES think those crazy things, and treading carefully around that, and, OTOH, actively humoring and encouraging the delusion, which is something you have to avoid doing if they're ever to get better.
The parents here were stomping all over that fine line with hobnailed boots, I think the court's decision here was reasonable.
Sure - but you're the one deciding that's the diagnosis.
The court disagrees, based on the testimony of experts. You picked an expert that agreed with your priors and then just went with that and begged the question all the way home.
I know that substituting your own judgement for those whose job it is to use their own judgement is your thing, but that won't get you anywhere.
I'm getting the distinct impression you didn't read the ruling, not even the part quoted in the OP.
That's just your autistic, bigoted ignorance talking, Mr. Bellmore.
I think, as Eugene says, this case is more complicated than just being about transgenderism per se. It's about the kid's health in the home vs. not in the home.
Doesn't matter if the kid isn't eating because he doesn't want to be a rabbi like his father, or doesn't want to play Tuesday night Scrabble, or take piano lessons. The fact is that the child has a health issue that won't be resolved if the kid stays in the home. At sixteen you can even petition to be emancipated from your parents. But that wouldn't be in the child's best interests either as the child clearly needs help with the eating disorder.
It's a sad situation, but I can't see how the child would be better off staying with the parents. This seems like the kind of case where the State is supposed to interfere on behalf of the child's welfare, no? Even if we think the parents have excellent arguments on the transgender issue. Their winning arguments won't keep the kid from self starvation.
I can't see how leaving the child to the beneficence of the state is in the child's best interest.
The arguments against the parents are that they are being "mean" and not supportive of the child's choices. Sounds like the opinion of ~95% of modern teenagers ... should we take all of them away from their parents and give them to some random overworked and underpaid foster parent?
This is why better Americans are not interested in the stale, downscale opinions of people like jdgalt1.
Enjoy life on the wrong side of history, clingers . . . until replacement, that is.
The only thing you people are replacing are the genitals on children.
Justice will come to you deranged lunatics.
Tell us more about how Republicans -- in a nation that becomes less religious, less rural, less bigoted, less backward, and less White every day -- are going to slow . . . no, make that stop . . . wait, no, make that REVERSE the half-century tide of the American culture war.
Reason, progress, education, modernity, inclusiveness, science; our nation's strongest, liberal-libertarian research and teaching institutions; modern, successful, educated communities . . . these are the winners at the American marketplace of ideas. Ignorance, dogma, bigotry, superstition, backwardness, and insularity; our can't-keep-up rural and southern stretches; backwater religious schooling . . . those are the losers -- and the pillars of conservative Republican thought.
Republicans are a poor tool for fixing the lunacy of individuals like you, but how it will happen isn't in much doubt. Taking children away from parents who don't affirm trannyism will have consequences like the replacement of enough of those in power who do such things to cow the rest. The consequences for the Governor who affirmed his high schools' right to enable "tranny"-rape without interference by parents shows the way.
This is why the Rev upholds the right of kids to make decisions about their own body and, more importantly to him, the right to bang adult men, if they so choose to.
Kirkland prefers receiving. From great danes. Reminds him of his childhood.
These are the commenters and audience you have cultivated, Volokh Conspirators.
The kid was brainwashed by likely teachers and is now in the "trans" cult. The parents need full support on this one to find a way to exorcize the "trans" demons from the kid....or keep trying until the kid is 18 and then he can do what he wants as an adult. It must be very hard on the parents in this situation. If a kid who is post puberty decides they are gay, it is challenging as a parent but acceptable. For a kid struggling through being an "outcast" in school, becoming part of the "trans" team is a way to get attention, and belonging..but the downside is very dangerous..surgical mutiliaton that is not reversable. Evolution choses your gender..you cannot "affirm" it..the kid should join the goth or emo group...and probably would be fine.
Where do you get that this case potentially involves genital surgery? Nothing in the Court of Appeals opinion indicates that.
"Where do you get that this case potentially involves genital surgery? Nothing in the Court of Appeals opinion indicates that."
The trans cult necessarily "potentially involves genital surgery". 1+1 = 2 even if the opinion doesn't mention that fact.
"the “trans” demons", and "Evolution choses your gender"
"more precious than property rights". Wow, that's saying something. No wonder that the US is literally the only country in the world not to have ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, if they feel that strongly about parents' right to treat their children like chattel.
Whereas you want to treat them like the government's chattel. I thought you were all in favor of diversity, but I guess this is one diverstep too far.
This is a strange case because the kid isn't being removed from the home because of specific abuse or neglect. Yet if we believe the conclusions here, that the kid won't eat if forced to stay with the parents, but will eat if removed from the home, then does the actual intellectual dispute between parents and child even matter?
I think the State's job in such a case is to only care about the health of the child, not who has the better argument on the transgender issue. Would you have a different point of view if the eating disorder was caused by the parents being devout Muslims and the kid wanting to convert to Christianity?
I'm just saying that the specific merits of the dispute itself between parents and kid might not be the most important factor here. Plus the kid is sixteen (or was when this started), and at that age should probably be allowed to weigh in on staying or leaving.
I don't know what you are responding to; I was responding to yet another snide comment from out of left-field about property rights and how backwards the US is.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment about him wanting to treat children as the government's chattel to be about this case.
My apologies.
"...if we believe the conclusions here, that the kid won’t eat if forced to stay with the parents, but will eat if removed from the home..."
IF you believe that you probably have a predisposition to believe nonsense.
What's so objectionable about this?
holes enough to fly a 747 through like all "govt rights" laws. Look at how the CRA of 64 was written. allows govt to decide "rights" in the private space....or should we say privileges.
3.1. The state is almost never in a better position than the parents to determine the best interests of the child.
Absent serious abuse (as in warranting criminal prosecution of the parents), the state ought not be allowed to substitute it's judgement of the best interests of the child for the parents judgement.
MS, 3.1 says nothing about the frequency or threshold of state action, only how it should be carried out.
Moreover, how does that principle of yours apply in the case of the OP?
How does this rate (even though it's probably not criminal)?:
Using language abusive enough to cause the kid to be at risk of self-harm.
Not seeking medical attention for an eating disorder.
Withdrawing the kid from school.
Stopping therapy.
Letting the non-adult remain in a school that "affirms" the tranny nonsense is precisely the kind of abuse that probably ought to result in a loss of parental rights. And there's no reason I know of to believe that this supposed "eating disorder" is a medical condition rather than an instance of self-destructive acting out. This nut will probably be less than a real adult at 18, but that's where we've chosen to draw the line and there's no reason to redraw it in this case in pursuit of faddish nonsense.
Lathering his rubes;
the disaffected law prof,
just lathering rubes
An odd collection of diversions today . . . but the important point is that nothing concerns the insurrection trial; the Bannon sentence; the judicial statement that former Pres. Trump submitted a false statement to a court; the insurrection hearing; the reports concerning national security documents concerning China and Iran found at a beach resort; American military personnel working as mercenaries for repulsive governments; the dismantling of DeSantis' "election fraud" criminal charges; or anything else that might upset this blog's target audience of disaffected, downscale, roundly bigoted right-wingers.
Carry on, clingers.
You must be a frequent Twitter poster, and sunny really understand that these are not things that normal people are concerned about.
Twitter is not real life
I hope this child overcomes the obstacle of having deplorable losers for parents.
Soon enough, this child will be able to leave the parents to await their replacement alone.
You're hoping for an outcome where the child has a <50% chance of even surviving.
You sick Federal.
I will root for the child.
You can root for the gullible, hateful, bigoted, superstitious, obsolete parents who choose to live in backwater Indiana and try to abuse a child. It suits you.
The kid is in a cult dude..."trans" is just denying reality and everyone knows it. As an adult he/she/it can do whatever they want with their body but as a child, the parents are doing what they can to get him out of this cult before it is too late.
Trans is not gay..it is denying reality of evolution/biology. You can't be the other sex no matter how much you want to imitate it. Any more than someone with 20/400 vision can identify as someone with 20/20 vision
Is it as much a denial of reality as superstition-based religion is a rejection of reality?
the parents are doing what they can to get him out of this cult before it is too late.
They are abusing the kid, because that's what the cult they belong to tells them to do.
It *is* actually possible for both of these things to be true.
"Soon enough, this child will be able to leave the parents to await their replacement alone."
Unfortunately:
"A DCS family case manager (FCM) investigated these reports, met with the Parents, Child, and *Child's siblings*..."
These parents appear to possibly have a few more years of their version of 'rearing' kids. 🙁
There's no evidence in the record that the boy's siblings share his mental illness.
Brett, when and where did you receive your training in diagnosing mental illness, if any?
Brett don't need no steenking training.
These hayseeds reject credentials, modernity, science, mainstream education, expertise, experience, qualifications, and anything else that doesn't derive from watching a televangelist for a few hours or attempting a Trump rally.
It seems that many in the profession don't either. I have heard a practicing Psychiatrist claim that amphetamines are among the safest of medication with respect to the patients mental conditions.
I would guess that very much depends on the patient and the medical condition!
You don't know the field, quit Dunning–Krugering FFS!!
You should know better.
YOU should know better than to imagine that you can successfully gaslight us about the number of "professionals" for whom being absolute nutters has been no barrier to acquiring credentials.
Residential school? Hmm.
I wonder if this kid was doing fine before the Covid lockdowns?
Telling kids they don't have to face reality is sad, cruel, and destructive. Escape from reality isn't actually available. But if you have enough enablers you can be miserable for a really long time while you pretend.
Superstitious bigots do not get to engage in child abuse when adult supervision is imposed by better Americans.
These culture war casualties can't be replaced -- by their betters -- fast enough.
Congratulations to Robert J. Henke, who represented the state.
What the heck????? Was this sarcasm? Or is Prof Volokh actually congratulating a lawyer helping take away parental rights to such an extreme that there’s even complicated rules about what they are allowed to discuss with their own child – on the few occasions they are allowed to see him/her?
I support children being separated from parents in very extreme situations, and maybe this is one. But nothing justifies a gag order like this, nor can it possibly be Constitutional.
Small government is when your psychologically disturbed kids are ripped away from you by the state and everyone just goes along with it.
Old-timey, right-wing bigots -- and anti-government cranks -- who promote child abuse are among my favorite culture war casualties.
These obsolete clingers can't be replaced too quickly.
The good Rev represents the pro-NAMBLA corner of society
To be fair, with his childhood, it's not really Rev. Super Chunk's fault. He never got over being replaced as "Head Boy" on the fellatio team his uncle coached.
How many of the Volokh Conspirators are proud of association with a blog that attracts so many unreconstructed bigots?
Prof. Kerr deserves credit for distancing himself from this flaming shitstorm; those who continue to contribute regularly, not so much.
Do your deans even try to look you in the eye anymore?
Not getting the "small government" reference. The sentence is false but the irony, if that's what it was, eludes me.
Are you not familiar with the convention? Prof. Volokh always congratulates the counsel (or equivalent) of the prevailing party, for presenting an argument rational and well-supported enough to convince the designated arbiter in our system of laws.
As far as I can tell, he does this with regard to his personal judgement of neither the issue nor the argument. (Though there seem to be more results with which he agrees than not, it is his name on the blog so he gets to do that.)
This isn't a case for professional courtesy or camaraderie. What the state did here is evil, and anyone acting like this is just another case is enabling it. Any conservative or libertarian who isn't fighting against this is the enemy.
" Prof. Volokh always congratulates the counsel (or equivalent) of the prevailing party, "
Sometimes; not always.
Granted, but it's more than sometimes. Change that to typically.
Periodically; not typically.
Occasionally, not periodically.
It was only a matter of time before these nuts tried to claim a constitutional right to abuse their own children.
Yes, reserve that for governments, in the form of teachers and drag queen strip shows.
Wait, governments are now putting on "drag queen strip shows"?
Public libraries, which last I checked were parts of governments.
Technically correct, but functionally ridiculous.
Libraries being folded into big government is just another example of the right's increasing war on culture.
Trannies are "culture"?
Drag is culture. Drag queens are not trans.
Moreover, culture you don't like is still culture.
Governments have no more business "affirming" drag culture than other degeneracy.
" Trannies are “culture”? "
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators. Bigots. Jackasses. The following you have cultivated.
This is why schools regret hiring you and wish you would just get it over with and head to Liberty, Regent, or Ave Maria.
So, now we know. In Rev. Tedious' world trannys ARE culture.
It's impossible to lower my opinion of him any further, but his attempts ARE indefatigable.
Well, no. Public libraries are parts of government, but that's the only part of that statement that's correct.
1) They are not “strip shows.” (There may be, of course, drag queen strip shows out there, but not at public libraries.) They are drag queen reading hours, where people dressed as drag queens read books out loud.
2) Public libraries are not putting them on. Public libraries are hosting them, as the 1A requires them to do.
The fascists have slipped into this idea because in some jurisdictions drag shows get broadly included in the category of "adult cabarets" - which otherwise include things like go-go dancing, stripper bars, etc. So, there are restrictions on where you can do them, whether you can do them in public, etc.
So you take a technical, likely unconstitutional-as-applied definition of "adult cabaret," pass it through the right-wing misinformation meat grinder, and then consumed by the extremists like Nonsense Characters here and Brett below, who pay only half-attention and only half-remember what they read, and you get this kind of rhetoric, akin to some kind of instant "urban myth."
Recent graduate of the Kamala Harris School of Public Speaking.
I've seen multiple videos and the kids are kids and the locations were obviously public libraries or similar places so you're just full of shit.
You have seen no videos of any "strip shows" — drag queen, straight, gay, any other sort — at public libraries.
You may have a point there, Simon. In the years I went to school I always knew there was something missing, but I couldn't quite figure what it was. Through careful pedagogical analysis the enlightened segment of society (not the abhorrent fascists, of course) finally came up with the answer: introduce drag performances into the curricula. Great thinkers are always unfairly attacked, unfortunately.
It's hilarious how backwards the concept of self-harm is in these cases. Someone who butchers their sex organs and comes to regret it later seems to fit that definition rather well, and yet the state pushes them in that direction.
Where is the push here?
Your overdetermination of gender conforming treatment as evil and wrong won't win many arguments, but it will keep you frustrated and angry about actions that don't effect you!
denying reality...you cannot "affirm" your gender..biology did that. you are either biological a male or female..you can't honestly change that no matter how much you try to imitate the other sex. JC...anyone who thinks you can be delusional
Speaking of delusional . . . . JC!
Deftly played.
So you're angry that other people's motives are something you think are delusional, and you want to tell them how it really is by force of law.
At the same time, you don't know the difference between affirm and conform.
Really a telling combo here.
He knows exactly the lunacy that you mean when you use the word "affirm". But neither he nor I will affirm your attempt to murder the language.
1. Accepting reality can be frustrating sometimes, but that's never a reason to deny it.
2. I hope that the state never takes children away from me, you, or anyone else we love and leads them down a path of denial and self-butchery, but my concern for others makes it impossible to ignore it when it happens, even when it happens to strangers.
3. I've accepted that there are people evil enough to butcher children for their own selfish reasons, and that no rational argument will dissuade them. In many cases, the best that can be hoped for is to wrest the power of the state away from them to minimize the damage they cause.
4. You failed to make any coherent argument yourself, which I've come to expect from your kind. I just hope you improve and come to realize the damage to children that you and your allies are imposing.
I’ve accepted that there are people evil enough to butcher children for their own selfish reasons,
Sounds like you're an insane person and I worry about you having a gun.
Not as much as I worry about the fact that people like you get a vote or have other means of inflicting your lunacy on the rest of us.
" I’ve accepted that there are people evil enough to butcher children for their own selfish reasons, and that no rational argument will dissuade them. "
If you are referring to circumcision -- in any form -- you seem to have a strong point.
No "overdetermination" is involved.
Maybe a little OT but in my lifetime I have seen what I will call a real increase in the age peeps are treated as capable. Back in the day there were plenty of 16 (and even younger) kids who were not happy with their parents and simply got out of Dodge. Not to mention getting married at 15 in some cases. I am not claiming either of these things are absolute good; rather that few peeps raised their eye brows when it happened.
I also have to point out that once when I was in junior high school my Mom fixed Brussel Sprouts and I refused to eat them. She basically kept them in the fridge and refused to feed me anything till I ate them.
Gender issues aside at some point kids have to go out on their own and leave the nest and there is no definite age when this happens.
But sometimes, like here, it's obvious that it happening will be a tragedy and the State's action in prematurely enabling it is evil.
The parents´ religious freedom claim calls to mind the comment by Steven Weinberg: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.”
So, the judges are acting religiously or they are not good people. Pick one. Or both.
I was referring to the parents who reject their child as she is, ostensibly based upon their religious precepts.
From what I've read I'm not as assured that this is the reasonable decision that Mr. Volokh makes it out to be. To me, it appears that the court disapproved of the parents and their beliefs, wanted the state to remove the child from their home for the simple reason that it sympathizes with the meme that failure to affirm a child's claimed gender identity constitutes abuse, found that it could not use this as a basis for acting as it wanted, and therefore deflected onto the child's eating problem and emotional state to achieve its objective. I find very little to cheer in this. The state should only be able to override parental custody under the most extreme and well documented circumstances, and I don't see that those were present in this case from what I've read. It shouldn't be able to stand above parents to grade them using slippery-slope and arbitrary standards to coerce them into raising their children according to the personal beliefs of government authorities.
" I’m not as assured that this is the reasonable decision that Mr. Volokh makes it out to be. "
Is there any evidence Prof. Volokh did that?
What is it about the child's behavior that suggests to you that the parents were not engaged in abusive parenting practices?
I mean, I'm not seeing much in the factual description here that suggests that, if the state were just to step back and let the parents parent, that the child's situation would have improved. Do you? Many of the commenters here seem to think that the parents should just have been allowed to continue engaging in the pattern of behavior that prompted the gender dysphoria, eating disorder, and self-isolation in the first place. Do you think that the parents should be permitted to double down? What happens when the kid commits suicide, or ends up in the hospital due to malnutrition?
I don't buy the notion that the parents' pattern of behavior caused anything. What's missing here is that kids get plenty of messaging from non-parental sources about gender and sexual identity from the internet and schools. As long as you're speculating, why not consider the possibility that the child was gaslighted by these sources to explain his/her condition? The parents know the child far better than they do. If they are unfit there should have been plenty of evidence of that before this issue arose.
Mother said things such as "[Child's preferred name] is the bitch that killed my son"[.]
If true, that's... not going to help. That's not a supportive environment for a kid, no matter what problem they have.
The quote doesn't pretend to be literally true, and I'm otherwise seeing nothing wrong with it.
Sometimes what's required of good parents is not "support" of their child's harmful delusions.
If I could have the opportunity to quote-mine a transcript of everything my parents said to me over the eighteen years of living with them ...
¨To me, it appears that the court disapproved of the parents and their beliefs, wanted the state to remove the child from their home for the simple reason that it sympathizes with the meme that failure to affirm a child’s claimed gender identity constitutes abuse, found that it could not use this as a basis for acting as it wanted, and therefore deflected onto the child’s eating problem and emotional state to achieve its objective.¨
I don´t know how significant the parents´ antipathy to the child´s transgendered status was. It looks like the parties´ agreement obviated the need for an adversarial evidentiary hearing, but a case manager´s initial report indicated that ¨Mother and Child both stated that Child had been suffering from an eating disorder for the past year but had yet to be evaluated by a medical professional; the Parents had withdrawn Child from school, and DCS was unaware of the family’s intent to enroll Child in a new school for the upcoming
school year; Child had been in therapy, but the Parents had discontinued it; Child did not feel mentally and/or emotionally safe in the home¨. The parents had an opportunity to dispute these allegations, but it appears they declined to do so.
Facts such as these with regard to a cisgender teen would evince piss poor parenting just as much as they do regarding a transgender teen.
I'm only stating my suspicions. Obviously, there is a need for government authorities to override parental rights under some circumstances but those should be extreme circumstances. Many kids have had eating disorders and managed to overcome without parents submitting to experts "or else". And many or even most parents are piss poor in some respect. But who should be the arbiter of what that means to justify the government superseding parental authority? One of the executives at Disney was on video mentioning her two kids: one is transexual and the other is pansexual. Seems like piss poor parenting to me, should the government have the right to take her kids?
I do not believe that parents should be required to "affirm" a child's so-called gender identity. But this situation as described in the post appears to go significantly beyond mere failure to do so.
Important information: At a MAGATrumpy (Eric Trump, Michael Flynn, Doug Mastriano, etc.) Christian right rally today, pastor Greg Locke informed the QAnoners that the Pope is a pimp . . . looks like Catholics are not going to heaven!
I figured this would be important information for many Volokh Conspiracy fans. Sorry about your loss, Catholics.
Looking bad for RINOs, too, among today's Republicans, conservatives, and patriots.
Carry on, clingers. If only for the entertainment value . . .
it seems to me like an important controversy.
Unimportant, your majesty means, of course.
It riles up the riff-raff, and maybe diverts a bit of attention from issues inconsistent with this white, male blog's stated aim (to make right-wing positions and thinking more palatable among a broader audience).
" I’ve accepted that there are people evil enough to butcher children for their own selfish reasons, and that no rational argument will dissuade them. "
If you are referring to circumcision -- in any form -- you seem to have a strong point.
“In contrast, speech on matters of purely private concern is of less First Amendment concern.” Id. (quoting Carey v. Brown, 447 U.S. 455, 467 (1980)). "
The "Id." here is Barlow v. Sipes, another IN app. ct. ruling.
What baffles me here is that not one lawyer, not one clerk, not one judge, bother to actually READ the Carey case. It had nothing to do with private v. public speech. Instead it was about an IL rule that gave union/labor the okay to picket outside private homes, but not other protestors.
How in the Wholly EFF did reliance on Barlow's complete misstatement of the USSCT Carey case happen with no one checking what Carey actually said?
The court opinion says "report was prepared by a psychologist and sex researcher who reviewed Child’s records. That doctor opined that Child may be suffering from borderline personality disorder (BPD) rather than gender dysphoria and explained that BPD is associated with eating disorders." I think that sounds like a mental illness - but I am not a doctor
I believe the official dividing line between mental "disorder" and mental "illness" has to do with whether the checks clear and how likely the patient is to attack the therapist. I'm not sure how that applies when somebody else is footing the bill; Does it automatically promote you to merely having a "disorder"?
Regardless, the kid is nuttier than a fruitcake, and by laymen's standards "mentally ill", regardless of what the politics might be today.
E.V.'s blog, E.V.'s prerogative but it seems like bad form in some cases [see link].
In that case E.V. congratulated Board of Ed attorney for winning before an administrative law judge whose decision was overturned by the commissioner of education [noted in an update]. Seems like neither the attorney nor the judge could bother to read the entire rule at issue.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/20/sixth-grader-telling-classmate-his-hairstyle-makes-him-look-like-trump-harassment-intimidation-or-bullying/
Drones love "professional niceties". The rest of us are unenthusiastic about those who promote evil.
I believe the official dividing line between mental “disorder” and mental “illness” has to do with whether the checks clear and how likely the patient is to attack the therapist.
Once again, there are no professionals in Brett's world.
Mr. Bellmore has acknowledged that he is autistic and that his mind has been addled by chemicals.
That does not entirely excuse his birther-level bigotry, but it might be an excuse with respect to some of his belligerent ignorance and antisocial thinking.
Quoting my son who is a lawyer suffering from schizophrenia, "Psychiatry is a failed profession."
Of course there are professionals in my world. You are aware, aren't you, that "professional" just means you do something for the pay, just as "amateur" means you do it because you enjoy doing it. Neither actually denotes being good at what you're doing, though you'd hope that somebody who does something for a living would be good at it.
Psychiatry is one of the most politicized professions out there, journalism may be the only one that's more political. The rules for diagnosis routinely change for transparently ideological reasons.
In SarcastrO's mental world "professionals" are far more reliable than in reality.
Projection is strong in you Rev. Costco.
Holy crap no it's not.
That's like saying someone with a currently incurable disease means medicine is a failed discipline.
I believe from context, it was clear by professional I meant someone motivated by professionalism.
You really pull the trigger on entire disciplines being motivated not by the truth or doing well by their patients, but by money/liberalism.
You've similarly insulted doctors, lawyers, judges, therapists, scientists generally, and businesses of all types.
It's a dark and cynical world, except for the light of truth you bring. Just incredible.