The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Americans Should Be Free to Express Their Opinions About Generals
whether by mail, by phone, or by social media—and whether about the generals' (or admirals') gender identities or religious beliefs or political beliefs or anything else.
The Indianapolis Star (Rashika Jaipuriar and Kaitlin Lange) reports that Twitter has removed Rep. Jim Banks' tweet about "Dr. Rachel Levine, the nation's first openly transgender four-star officer":
The title of first female four-star officer gets taken by a man.
Twitter policy forbids "targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals."
I for one do not welcome our new social media overlords. It seems to me that all civilian officials, and all citizens, have to be free to express their views about generals or admirals (and others). That is true even if the views express an ideology about gender identity that, though shared by tens of millions of Americans, is contrary to the views of the executives running Twitter or Facebook.
Of course, I appreciate that Twitter and Facebook are privately owned, and that no-one is being threated with jail or liability or loss of professional license here (though see the other situations described here, here, here, and here). But I think the Court was right in Packingham v. N.C., where it wrote:
A fundamental principle of the First Amendment is that all persons have access to places where they can speak and listen, and then, after reflection, speak and listen once more. The Court has sought to protect the right to speak in this spatial context. A basic rule, for example, is that a street or a park is a quintessential forum for the exercise of First Amendment rights. Even in the modern era, these places are still essential venues for public gatherings to celebrate some views, to protest others, or simply to learn and inquire.
While in the past there may have been difficulty in identifying the most important places (in a spatial sense) for the exchange of views, today the answer is clear. It is cyberspace—the "vast democratic forums of the Internet" in general, and social media in particular.
Indeed, in our hotly competitive political environment, denying particular viewpoints and speakers to social media platforms would indeed sharply distort "the exchange of views," and the electoral results that stem from those exchanges of views, even if other avenues for speech remain available. And Justice Holmes was likewise right when he wrote in 1921 (in dissent then, but the Court soon adopted this as its own view), arguing against Post Office censorship rules:
The United States may give up the Post Office when it sees fit, but while it carries it on the use of the mails is almost as much a part of free speech as the right to use our tongues, and it would take very strong language to convince me that Congress ever intended to give such a practically despotic power to any one man.
Again, the analogy is not perfect (that's why it's an analogy). The post office in 1921 was likely more indispensable as a tool for communication than social media are today. And the post office is government-owned, so that implicates the First Amendment.
But the point, I think, remains sound today:
We would rightly be upset by either the government or private phone companies dictating what can or can't be said on phone lines. That's true even when there's no privacy concern, for instance when a phone line is being used to publicly promote some cause, or to conduct a get-out-of-the-vote drive. And it's true both for landline companies and for the famously competitive cell phone companies.
We would rightly be upset by either the government or Google dictating what can and can't be said via Gmail. To quote one decision with regard to platforms' common-law immunity against libel liability for e-mail, "[An online service's] role in transmitting e-mail is akin to that of a telephone company, which one neither wants nor expects to superintend the content of its subscribers' conversations."
We should also be upset by such suppression when phones or e-mail are being used to communicate to the public, albeit through the aggregate of one-to-one communications. Justice Holmes, after all, was talking about mailing of a newspaper to a large set of subscribers (indeed, mailing that took advantage of the government-discounted second-class postage rate). Phone lines are, as I noted, often used for mass public communication campaigns. E-mail is used not just to send things to one friend or business associate, but to large sets of subscribers.
I think we should likewise be upset by Big Tech companies imposing such control over social media platforms, like Twitter or Facebook (or indirectly imposing such control by the attempted deplatforming of Parler unless it implemented similar controls). Whether it would be constitutional to treat Twitter, at least as to some of its functions, as a common carrier like a phone company—and thus forbidden from discriminating based on disagreement with the factual or moral assertions that users are making—is a complicated question (which I discuss in detail in this article). Whether it would be good policy to impose such regulations, given all the costs of regulation, is more complicated still.
But while I'm not positive about the solution, it seems to me there is a serious problem here. When Americans can't use some of the most prominent publicly available means of communication to express their views about four-star admirals—whether based on the admirals' politics or actions or gender identity or religion or anything else—something is badly wrong.
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I agree with Prof. Volokh's first statement.
I disagree that these platforms are private. They are public utility services. As Rep. Jordan's electricity or water could not be cut off for opinion, so should these services be compelled to stop all reviews of content.
If they fail to comply, the Trump administration of 2025 should seize them in civil forfeiture, for their billions of federal crimes, and auction them off, like the Ferrari of a drug dealer. To deter.
"I disagree that these platforms are private. They are public utility services. As Rep. Jordan’s electricity or water could not be cut off for opinion, so should these services be compelled to stop all reviews of content. "
See, this is why I don't mute him. Very sensible point.
Unfortunately Reason had logged me out, so it didn't censor Behar's comment for me (irony intended), but on what legal theory could civil forfeiture be accomplished. I mean other than the same theory communists and tin pot dictators use to appropriate oil companies or other assets they want to grab.
I do have an alternative proposal, pit a tax on social media censorship, with an exception for indecent speech, which is already recognized as an exception to the bar on content based speech restrictions by the government.
The tax would be a simple 100$ per censored social media post, and reporting requirements of the date, who was censored, and before and after screen captures of every instance of censorship. Plus a mechanism for people to verify that their censored post was reported and the tax paid.
To the objection that the reporting requirements are too onerous, or privacy concerns, I would say it hardly seems worse than requiring banks to report all transactions on accounts totaling more than $600. And certainly the proceeds from the tax could be used to offset some of the spending from the reconciliation bill, and would further a legitimate government interest.
Kazinski. Billions of federal crimes have been committed on these platforms, from child porn, to terrorism. The platforms themselves have defrauded advertisers since half their viewership is not human. These fully justify civil forfeiture.
That is the most massive criminality going on, dwarfing drug sales.
Whereas Bob does understand the words, but just doesn't care, because he's a nihilist whose only value is pwning the libs.
If that is his only value, his life has no meaning, because the libs have owned him with prejudice, stomping his political preferences into worthless shrapnel in the settled-but-not-quite-over American culture war.
Within living memory, the same people drooling with joy over corporate censorship screamed themselves purple that malls, being the equivalent of ye olde towne square, should be prevented from ejecting protesters.
And almost within holding-your-breath memory, corporations should not be allowed to disfavor streaming traffic not their own.
And in-between, that corporations should be forbidden from publishing a political book just before an election, when it counts the most.
So pardon me your facetious righteousness. You've a religion, there.
Unlike you, I despise all religions, including the righteous secular ones.
Hi, Boomer. You need to be replaced by a diverse. Diversity is the strength of our nation.
"Hi, Boomer. You need to be replaced by a diverse..."
Actually, if Arthur and other male progressives who currently occupy positions of power truly cared about having more women in positions of power, they would self-identify as women.
How 'bout it, guys? Can I get hearty, "I am a woman!"?
Sure, but that's because you're an idiot. They are definitionally private. They have no attributes of "public utility services," and the first amendment does not allow the government to treat them as such. You're just using — as always — words you don't understand.
David. Aren't you a lawyer? No more need be said.
Hi, David. From an ordinary dictionary. 95% monopoly meets the criteria.
"public utility
n. any organization which provides services to the general public, although it may be privately owned. Public utilities include electric, gas, telephone, water, and television cable systems, as well as streetcar and bus lines. They are allowed certain monopoly rights due to the practical need to service entire geographic areas with one system, but they are regulated by state, county and/or city public utility commissions under state laws. (See: monopoly)"
If you want strict definitions, then nothing done on the internet has anything to do with the First Anendment. It involves neither “speech” - nobody’s vocal cords move and nobody emits sounds - nor “press” — no pressure is ever put onto a medium like paper to force ink onto it. No speech as strictly defined, no press as strictly defined, therefore nothing to do with First Anendment protection.
But our society for some time hasn’t defined things that strictly because evolving technology has basically rendered all such traditional categories useless.
It’s just as reasonable to regard a medium of communication people widely use to communicate with other as analogous to mail, telephone, and telegraph and hence susceptible to being defined and regulated as a public utility as it is to regard it as being a kijd of “speech” or “press.”
Congress passed statutes declaring telegraph and and telephone companies public utitlities, so I agree a similar statute would be needed here and the Congress and not the courts should decide the matter. But there is enough resemblance to traditional public utilities that such a statute would be within Congress’ power. And while social media companies do communicate on their own in ways outside the public utility rubric, Congress can require social media companies to structure themselves so that the public utility part of their services operates outside the control of the non-public-utility part.
Twitter, e.g., is not a public utility b/c no one needs it.
I understand that if Twitter bans you there is a site called Gab, though I don't see that anyone needs it either.
You can express your opinions about transgender people without misgendering or deadnaming them. And if you don't like Twitter's rules, I hear an exciting new social media platform has just entered the market. (Although I hear their T&Cs forbid criticising *them*, so from a free speech POV that's also not great.)
"You can express your opinions about transgender people without misgendering or deadnaming them."
You can't be foolish enough to think that. In fact, if your opinion of 'transgender' people is that they haven't actually changed their gender, it's impossible to express it without 'misgendering' them, which is to say, accurately identifying their gender.
Twitter's policy is to literally forbid speaking the truth, in this case.
Brett : Twitter’s policy is to literally forbid speaking the truth, in this case.
I wouldn't quite put it like that - it's more like trying to make references to other people's sex unsayable.
Assuming for the sake of argument that there really is such a thing as gender, different from sex, the tech police (and Martinned) insist that you refer to other people by their gender (as specified by them) and insist that you do not refer to them by their sex. This is not forbidding you from saying "the truth" about their sex, it is forbidding you from mentioning it at all.
It's obvious that in this case the Congresscrittur was not referring to Admiral Levine's gender (even if he believes in the concept of gender) - he was referring to the Admiral's sex. Which is of course how people have used words like man, woman, husband, wife, he, she for the whole history of the English language - bar the last five to ten years, in a small corner of the English speaking community.
"Misgendering" does not mean referring to someone by the "wrong" gender, it means referring to them by their sex.
"Misgendering" is intended to connote falsity, error, perhaps deliberate error, but in fact it refers to mentioning a taboo. The Congresscrittur did not say anything erroneous or false, still less anything deliberately so, he merely said something true, but taboo.
He could truthfully have said that Admiral Levine was female, if he was a believer in gender and wished to refer to it. But he didn't.
So what we have here is a cult, and the cult insists on its taboos. To the extent of wishing to silence, and punish, those unbelievers who when they talk of things that are taboo to cult- followers.
Their foolishness comes down to expecting everybody to learn and remember arbitrary personal pronouns, and be alert for arbitrary changes at arbitrary times. I don't play that game. I have enough trouble associating names and faces, and don't intend adding arbitrary combinations of letters with unpronounceable and unknowable sounds.
If only Twitter had some place where people could write their preferred pronouns, so that other don't have to remember them!
You are an obnoxious loon if you think I am under any obligation to call trannys anything but what they are, and I say to hell with you.
I would never suggest you have any such obligation. You can also keep your mouth shut. You should try it...
You first.
Again, nothing in this comment is "unsayable" on Twitter, so I really don't know what you're complaining about.
I don't tweet, and the comment above is on Volokh not Twitter. My comment refers to Twitter's treatment of Rep Banks tweet, which was to prevent him calling Admiral Levine a man. Which he is.
As mentioned above, "misgendering" is a dishonest neologism, intended to pretend that a speaker who refers correctly to someone's sex is instead referring incorrectly to that person's announced gender.
Rep Banks referred to Admiral Levine's sex and he did so correctly. Thus his twittercrime was really "correctsexing." And as I pointed out, correctly, you can't correctsex someone on Twitter. You're not allowed to say Admiral Levine is a man. Which he is.
Your choice to change the subject to the fact I can say something else on a different platform is another of those "mis" words - "misdirection."
As with our more recent discussion, you have assumed "man" should refer to biomarker sex.
Yes, indeed. But when I'm speaking I get to pick what I'm referring to.
Obviously if I pick "giraffe" to refer to what everybody else calls "elephant", I risk being misunderstood, and even being though eccentric. But since most* English speakers still understand and use "man" in the biomarker sense, and the new "trans-man" sense is an extremely recent invention, which requires heavy policing in the media / social media even to keep it on life support, anyone who pretends to misunderstand me - or Rep Banks - risks being thought disingenuous. And Twitter et al's "misgendering" appelation is entirely disingenuous.
* of course "most" is not essential here. The current minority "trans-man" usage is perfectly fine for those who wish to use it. I wish they'd chosen something else, just as I hope a crowd of people doesn't start using "giraffe" to refer to "elephants" - but you get to pick your own references.
In most contexts, that usage is fine. But perhaps in the context of Banks' tweet, it ought not refer to biomarker sex. Or at least, he should make it clear that is what he means and he is not claiming it is illegitimate to call Levine a woman.
But perhaps in the context of Banks’ tweet, it ought not refer to biomarker sex.
But the context of Rep Banks tweet was precisely that he was referring to "biomarker" sex. He was pointing out how absurd it was to celebrate Admiral Levine's promotion as a success for womankind when Admiral Levine is, in biological fact, a man. That was the whole point of the tweet.
Or at least, he should make it clear that is what he means
There was nothing unclear about it. His tweet would make no sense if he had been trying to refer to "man" in its new genderish sense. Were you puzzled as to whether he was using "man" in a biomarker sense ?
and he is not claiming it is illegitimate to call Levine a woman.
Why shouldn't he so claim ? I happen to be preternaturally liberal-minded and so I am willing to tolerate gender-minded folk confusing the hell out of people by inventing a meaning of "man" that is 180 degrees from normal usage. But why should Rep Banks not think, and say, or imply, that that usage is illegitimate ? (Illegitimate in the sense of ridiculous, rather than in the sense of being a candidate for sanctions.) No doubt he thinks the "confusing" is not really innocent confusing but guilty gaslighting,
The doctor has literally ordered that Levine be referred to as a woman. That strikes me as a very good reason to change its usage in some contexts.
Er, doctors don't get to make that kind of order. Even for their patients they only get to recommend. For passers-by the doctor's orders don't mean squat.
And if the Admiral's docs are really advising that this Admiral is in danger of going doolally if everyone doesn't refer to him as her, then that's strikes me as a very good reason not to appoint him a 4 star officer. Or even Petty Officer in charge of the canteen.
Seriously - wanting to be referred to by a different sex than the one you've got is one thing, but if doctors are advising that some kind of psychological trauma is in store unless everyone repeats that they believe he's a she, Tinkerbell style, then that's way too flakey for any kind of command.
Of course, each person gets to decide for themselves what to call other people. That being said, I think it is pretty clear you and I have very different viewpoints on gender dysphoria and its treatment.
Marginalized, old-timey, bigoted clingers have rights, too. Banks should have the right to express his position.
(Prof. Eugene Volokh, who repeatedly imposes viewpoint-driven censorship at his White, male, conservative blog, is a curious advocate for Banks with respect to Twitter's conduct.)
Obsolete right-wingers do not have any right to the respect of modern Americans, however, or to have stale, ugly views remain relevant in modern America. Better Americans should label him a superstitious and ignorant right-wing bigot; mock his positions; shun him; and make him politically inconsequential.
The answer to bigoted conservative speech is to continue to win the culture war with better ideas.
(Banks and his fellow clingers will always have the Federalist Society, Heritage Foundation, and Volokh Conspiracy, however.)
Eta a few weeks or a year or two, and you will be back on the bandwagon of banning corporate censorship.
Righteousness of corporate censorship. What an extreme leftist position.
"Marginalized, old-timey, bigoted clingers have rights, too. Banks should have the right to express his position."
Yup. Kirkland and his pals have figured out how to get even the most strident feminist to say that we're putting women in leadership positions, without actually having to put women in leadership positions. I doubt Banks pointing out the truth will change that.
Twitter’s policy is to literally forbid speaking the truth, in this case.
You understand that nothing in your comment would be forbidden to say on Twitter? Nothing you just said involves misgendering or deadnaming anybody.
Whatshisname* "Rachel" Levine would be a man in a dress if he were manly enough to be a man.
Don't care if Twitter blocks that. No one needs Twitter.
* Wikipedia doesn't even LIST his name at birth, as far as I can see.
That's just embarrassing.
"You can express your opinions about transgender people without misgendering or deadnaming them"
And if my opinion is that they are misgendering themselves?
Then you can say that without misgendering them.
I COULD play your stupid games, but why would I want to?
Because otherwise Twitter won't let you play on their platform.
The preferred pronoun is false, delusional and a sign of psychosis.
Finally a topic on which Behar has firsthand expertise!
And if their dead name is their legal name? Or you need to reference their dead name to refer to past events, like say discussing Chelsea/Bradley Manning or Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner?
Where is it written that I must indulge someone else’s delusion?
At this point in several state laws, and a fair number of court opinions, and bureaucratic 'interpretations' of laws, unfortunately.
In the terms & conditions of the platform at issue here, which you're welcome to not sign up to.
Accurately stating someone's sex/gender is "misgendering" them.
"You can express your opinions about transgender people without misgendering or deadnaming them."
That's certainly true. I can express my opinion that this doctor is a man without misgendering him. But twitter would falsely claim that I was misgendering him, and delete my tweet.
Would this concern extend to homophobic, anti-semetic, or racist tweets?
Jon Shields: Of course. "We shouldn't have Jewish general X running our forces in the Middle East" or "The old rules for the military were right, and it is indeed bad to have gays in the military, including admiral Y" or "General Z shouldn't be promoted because he's black" or "General W shouldn't be promoted because he's white" -- all of these are views that Americans should be free to express.
Indeed. You should have the right to say all of these things.
But that wasn't the comment. The comment wasn't, "it should not have been given to a transgender woman," but was an assertion that it was in fact given to a man, which I understand is the equivalent within the trans community to using a hard core racial or ethnic slur. Maybe it shouldn't be, but since twitter would (and most would agree justifiably) censor a comment about a four-star-general's promotion that used the n-word, the question is less whether there should be some level of regulation, but whether calling General Levine a "man" crosses that line. It's not clear an organization can or should run away from the line drawing.
"which I understand is the equivalent within the trans community to using a hard core racial or ethnic slur."
See, this is why, while you might humor the preferences of such groups if you felt like doing so, you should never be compelled to: Because the moment you're compelled to, they can weaponize their preferences to shut down any criticism of themselves.
Suppose that NAMBLA decides that "pedophile" is a vile slur? Accurately characterizing somebody is NEVER a "slur".
If Twitter demands you not describe mentally ill men as mentally ill men don't use Twitter.
I don't, actually. Never have. Only reason I ever used FB was that I needed a good way of connecting with relatives when I had to move away to get a job.
Wasn't too bad until they even started censoring the private group some of my friends had started to segregate political discussions from sharing recipes.
"a four-star-general’s promotion "
It wasn't really a promotion, it was a designation of rank by the fact of being named Asst. Secretary.
I'll be far more impressed when a naval officer makes it to the ranks to full admiral.
So platforms shouldn’t be able to do anything to prevent them from becoming the next 4chan?
Apples and oranges.
Facebook and Instagram and Twitter, give people their own brand, you are the author of your Facebook page and mostly control the content, and who can see it and comment.
4chan is designed to be a free for all.
I don't think anyone thinks putting restrictions on what Facebook censors means you can't control what's contained on your part of it.
Making Facebook act as a common carrier is very different than merely “putting restrictions on what Facebook vendors.” There is a reason why unmoderated spaces tend to always turn into something resembling 4chan. The idea that Facebook is merely a set of private spaces controlled by their page owner (or that people primarily use social media by browsing individual pages) is… not accurate, to say the least.
“censors”, not “vendors” (thanks autocorrect)
That's pretty much what MeWe is at the moment. Very reminiscent of Facebook before they decided to start the political censorship: You've got your own page, can share it with people who want to see it and interact with you, and nothing you don't go looking for gets pushed to you.
And I assure you it's not a bit like 4chan. It's really just pre-insanity Facebook, actually, with no sign of any devolving. For all I know there are neo-Nazis and radical communists on MeWe, but I'd never see their contributions without looking for them.
What you're missing here is that a space doesn't have to be policed from above to be "moderated". The individual users can be empowered to decide what they see. Facebook avoided letting users have that level of control, because their business model was selling eyeball time, it was absolutely dependent on forcing people to see things they didn't particularly ask to see. Every time a third party made filtering software available to FB users, FB changed their own code to break it, because they didn't want the users to have any control.
MeWe can avoid that, because it's subscription, not advertising, based.
They are free to express them. But why should Twitter be obliged to let them express them on Twitter? No one needs Twitter.
Why does anything have to "extend" to anything? Why not address the situation instead of addressing a completely different situation? We are not required to have rules for everything or no rules at all; we can choose a middle course.
Because when we justify a particular, we often justify the decision we'd prefer in the particular case by appealing to a general principle.
And while we're arguing with someone else about what the general principle should be, so that it applies to these cases, but not those cases, we often educate ourselves (and/or the other party) about the soundness of the general principle we wish to appeal to.
Principles need not be general.
Lol. Principles, how do they work?
When I read the headline I thought it was going to be about the service member who was reprimanded for criticizing the Biden Afghanistan exit. Does this opinion apply there as well?
But of course. Likewise if you wish to spout x, y and z about your employer, your spouse, your mistress/mister/they-ster, you get the awesome opportunity to enjoy the x, y and z consequences from your boss, your spouse, your secret affair being terminated and published far and wide. Thats pretty nifty
But isnt it different when its government retaliation?
It's government retaliation to which the service member agreed when entering service. UCMJ is part of the deal when entering the military.
Outside of the military, sure. I was kind of surprised the guy didn't resign his commission prior to speaking out; He got about what I expected him to, maybe even got off easy. Public criticism within the military is only allowed to flow down, never up.
legalizemushrooms: I appreciate your point -- the rules are indeed different when it comes to the military, as so much is different (e.g., rules about jury trial, duty to follow orders, the possibility of being punished for cowardice, and much more).
estovir: Actually, various laws (some federal, with regard to union-related speech and other employee criticism of employers, and some state, see http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/empspeech.pdf) do indeed forbid employers from punishing employees for their speech, including in many situations criticism of their employers.
These are the same people that are now writing articles about how vulgar the left has become when questioning Biden and how "dangerous" this is apparently for our Republic. The lack of any self-awareness here from the people who would, as a matter of writing routine non-op ed copy would call Trump a nazi without factual support....
As you demonstrate on a daily basis, "without factual support" is in the eye of the beholder...
Phony woman, phony admiral.
Dude is just an Assistant Secretary in a civilian department, dozens [maybe hundreds] of Assistant Secretaries in our bloated government. The purported rank and uniform are an insult to actual military members.
And your so-called god is a paltry, illusory thing; a childish, superstitious insult to competent, reasoning, modern adults.
No one is perfect, it seems. Everyone is phony to some degree.
(Ric walked on water, then died; are you awaiting his resurrection?)
I have much bigger objections to Levine's actions vis a vis hir mother, and covid-19 shutdowns from 2020. What Levine did was the height of hypocrisy, and a betrayal of the Hippocratic oath, quite honestly.
Agree.
The solution does not lie in regulation. Aside from 1A issues, you need 60 Senators to vote Yes, and you're never going to get that many, especially with campaign contributions being so useful.
The solution, as with Al Capone, is taxation. Not only does the hurdle fall to 50 Senators, but there is much less to worry about on the constitutional front.
A combination of :
(a) a higher rate income tax on corporate income, on profits over say $1 billion pa and
(b) a sales tax of say 25% of advertising and related revenue (with a minimum revenue threshold before you have to pay) and
(c) anti-avoidance rules punishing attempts to escape the taxes by slicing yourself up into smaller units
would probably do the trick. Not in the sense of actually influencing the Tech Lords themselves - they are much too rich too care - but in the sense of granting new entrants a competitve advantage over the existing big guys.
Woud also finance a juicy tax cut for plumbers, electricians, truck drivers and other practically useful people.
The main thing new entrants need at this point is for it to be established that financial services companies like Visa are public accommodations, and must serve everybody who isn't provably criminal.
Financial deplatforming has been the "nuke them from orbit" response to rising competitors, when all else fails.
I'm sure we could manage an 85% cap on corporate interest expense deduction, with a special extra 15% alllowance for corporations that choose to serve everyone who isn't provably criminal.
I feel sure most banks would choose to be non-discriminatory.
Why should Twitter be forced to host opinions it finds hateful? Doesn’t it also have rights? Rep. Banks can do what you are doing - start a blog. He can post on Gab and the other private alternatives to Twitter. He can do a million other things to post and publicize his hateful views about other governmental actors: use his government email or a private email account to email out his views to his constituents. He can go jump on Fox News I am sure. Indeed, Twitter removing the post is giving him plenty of free media - a lot more than he’d get if it weren’t removed. That’s all part of the Free Speech system. Forcing private companies to host views they find abhorrent is not part of that system. Sorry
Not an exact analogy to be sure but if Hobby a lobby has a right to not be regulated like other like companies and refuse to be forced to pay for birth control based on its idiosyncratic, unscientific view that the Pill is an abortoficient, surely Twitter should have the right not to have to host views it finds hateful. Even if those hateful views are accepted by tens of millions of Americans like the good Professor points out.
Conservatives want to adopt in general the 'heads we win, tails you lose' approach favored by religious claimants -- they can discriminate against everyone else, but no one can discriminate against them.
Only the gullible by nature would expect that standard to endure.
"Conservatives want to adopt in general the ‘heads we win, tails you lose’ approach favored by religious claimants..."
I could swear that it was a conservative court that ruled against Arthur's "heads we win, tails you lose approach", only to find that a Dem Congress enacted that approach into federal law, and another Dem Congress decided to apply that approach to the ACA and thus the contraception mandate. At least, that's how the reality-based community sees it. But you be you, Arthur.
Jon S: Well, Hobby Lobby is a case that's actually about the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and one that turned on the Court's conclusion that the government could grant the exemption without materially affecting Hobby Lobby employees' access to whatever contraceptives you want.
On the other hand, when it comes to exemptions claims based on the Free Speech Clause, we have rather closer precedents -- PruneYard, Turner Broadcasting, and Rumsfeld v. FAIR, which I discuss in some detail here. Wouldn't it make sense to analogize to those Free Speech Clause precedents involving compelled access for speech purposes to private property, than to a Religious Freedom Restoration Act precedent involving something quite different?
Professor Volokh, with regard to the internet you insist on reference to the, "Free Speech Clause," and never refer to the, "Press Freedom Clause." You even take that style of reasoning to the extreme of citing speech freedom precedents in the context of what apparently ought to be press freedom cases. Why? Do you have any principled argument to prove that public posting on the internet, using for agency a private business to accomplish the publication, when that business assembles the audience and sells advertising to monetize access to the audience, is not engaged in press activity?
" is not engaged in press activity"
Then it should be subject to the same rules as newspapers and not get protection via Sec 230,
Don Nico, exactly. I have been saying that on this blog since more than 5 years ago. Section 230 should be repealed. Note: not conditionally repealed, unless you do this or do that. Repealed entirely, without any conditions.
They are subject to the same rules as newspapers; newspapers get protection via Section 230 also.
Lathrop, I know you're militantly opposed to understanding this, but the distinction you're pushing here doesn't exist. There is no constitutionally relevant difference between freedom of speech, and freedom of the press. They're just different modes by which people communicate, and it's the communication that's protected.
Because there's no distinction, even though you wish there were.
"Why should Twitter be forced to host opinions it finds hateful? "
Various Taliban and the Supreme Leader of Iran have twitter accounts.
I guess twitter doesn't find their opinions hateful.
Maybe they don’t. And you can criticize them all you want for that as can Rep Banks and anyone else.
You mean like Prof. Volokh was doing in this post?
I don’t think that is the nature of Professor Volokh’s criticism, ie that Twitter is being inconsistent or enabling hateful Islamist leaders. Rather, he seems to say that we’d be better if Twitter did make these decisions at all (as a matter of policy) so that any hateful speech could be posted (presumably, he’d allow for narrow exceptions for true threats, fraud etc.). Once you grant that Twitter should have this power, you have to engage with the specifics of the decision made. Here, I think the Professor very clearly does not want to do that. He does not want to publicly say he finds Rep Banks’ views to not be hateful towards a class of people who do not deserve sugg CA hate (as opposed to hateful remarks about, say, the Taliban who do deserve it). I believe Twitter should be able to make those calls.
Can I criticize them all I want on Twitte or other social media, or will standing in my yard and shouting have to suffice?
Cool. Now do bakers, florists, photographers, and B and B owners. After that, you can go on to other stores, restaurants, and such.
I think it's funny on a libertarian blog for the right of a private company to regulate speech on its service is denied.
Indeed. Professor Volokh should be forced to allow students who object to his insistence on using the n word while teaching from posting on the front page of this blog.
Jon S: Actually, this question of where social media platforms fall on the spectrum between, say, phone companies, cable systems, university campuses, and shopping malls (where compelled equal access rules are generally seen as constitutional) and, say, newspapers, parades, and blogs (where they are generally seen as unconstitutional) is interesting and complicated; I discuss it in a lot of detail in my article, as well as in this excerpt.
Shopping malls do not generally allow protestors to operate outside a store in the way that those protestors have the right to do on a public street outside a store that is not in a shopping mall.
Compelled equal access on the basis of race or sex, sure, but not on the basis of speech.
Well certainly they can have a voice in the comments equal to the rest of us.
starlord1988: That's why the tagline on our blog says "Often Libertarian," not "Always Libertarian" (see this post for more). I myself am a big supporter of private property rights (though maybe less so than some of my cobloggers). But that doesn't mean that I think private property rights should be unlimited, or should always be subject to some libertarian litmus test.
Now maybe I'm wrong as to this point (again, I discuss at least the First Amendment dimensions of this question at some length in my article); perhaps I should be more libertarian on this score. But that's a question as to substance -- if the objection is a departure from my Libertarian Oath, my response is that I never took one.
Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland has a few questions about Prof. Volokh's ostensible and "often libertarian" devotion to free expression, but the Volokh Conspiracy Board of Censors has decreed that Artie Ray is not permitted to ask them here.
(A reprieve and acknowledgement of mistake would be welcomed and met with a spirit of goodwill. Otherwise, live with the error or perhaps censor anew and try to dodge accountability that way.)
Arthur, you assert that Artie Ray's banishment was ideologically biased, but I question if that's accurate. It was a long time ago, when Eugene was a lot more active about excising incivility, left and right. Do you dispute that a lot of right wing comments and commenters were also censored back then?
I recall that Artie Ray, who made fun of conservatives, was banished -- also, I had comments calling conservatives "c_p succ_rs" deleted and I was warned to stop using "sl_ck-j_wed" to refer to conservatives -- while others' calls for liberals to be shot in the face while answering doors; gassed; placed face-down in landfills; raped; and sent to Zyklon showers were not censored (those comments are visible to this day).
If uses of "c_p succ_rs" and "sl_ck-jaw_ed" to describe conservatives are repeatedly censored while graphically calling for liberals to be murdered and raped is not censored, what explains the situation other than viewpoint-driven, partisan censorship? If I am missing another plausible explanation, please illuminate the situation.
I defend Prof. Volokh's right to engage in partisan, hypocritical, continuing censorship. His playground, his rules. When he asks me to stop using certain words to describe conservatives, or to quit mocking conservatives as hilarious good ol' boy Artie Ray, I try to follow his rules, even when he applies a vividly different standard to conservative commenters.
I think you may be mixing different time periods. The offensive comments you mention which were allowed to stand are, I believe, from a later era than when Artie-Ray was banned. Twelve Inch Pianist, for example, was also prohibited from using his ID back then, and now it passes without complaint. I'm pretty sure overtly racist and antisemitic right wing commenters such as Aktenberg and Pavel Petrovich, who now pollute these threads undisturbed, would have been banned when Artie-Ray was.
The undisturbed comments calling for me and other liberals to be murdered and raped occurred before and after Artie Ray was banished.
The vanishing of certain words and decrees that other words are not to be used -- both aimed at me -- occurred before and after far more offensive content from conservatives was published without objection.
Speaking of handles . . . "c_p succ_r" (when used to describe certain conservatives) was vanished more than once for ostensible violation of civility standards; the use of "phoqueue" as a screenname was, however, lauded (by same person who censored me) for being quite witty.
If you don't see the pattern, political blinders may be involved.
Again, blog proprietors who repeatedly impose partisan, viewpoint-controlled censorship -- even while posing as champions of free expression -- have rights, too.
"If you don’t see the pattern, political blinders may be involved."
Are you under the impression I'm right of center?
The pattern I see is that this blog used to be heavily moderated for civility in a relatively non-political manner, and now pretty much anything goes. There were/are inevitable exceptions at all stages of the policy's (d)evolution. Citing them doesn't show a pattern any more than gettting away with 80 in a 55 zone proves speed limits aren't being enforced.
No blogger without an even-handed policy would take the abuse you heap on him on a regular basis.
Have you asked Eugene lately if the Artie-Ray ban still applies? I wouldn't be surprised if he allowed it now.
Isn't Artie-Ray just The Rev? I'd say that not being kicked off when you change your handle means the ban doesn't meaningfully apply anymore.
" Have you asked Eugene lately if the Artie-Ray ban still applies? "
I have not. The banishment was explicit and unqualified.
" Isn’t Artie-Ray just The Rev? I’d say that not being kicked off when you change your handle means the ban doesn’t meaningfully apply anymore. "
I have posted as Arthur Kirkland before and after ceasing to use -- because of banishment by Prof. Volokh -- the voice of obvious parodist Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland.
Prof. Volokh explicitly banned Artie Ray and has never indicated that the ban has been rescinded; he continues to permit Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland to comment. I try to honor Prof. Volokh's rules at his blog.
"Twelve Inch Pianist, for example, was also prohibited from using his ID back then, and now it passes without complaint."
To be clear, AFAIK it was the Wapo moderators that prohibited me from using my ID, and not anyone affiliated with this blog.
And my ID is a reference to my height, although it is a common misunderstanding.
"And my ID is a reference to my height, although it is a common misunderstanding."
Nice try but that's BS. I happen to be a pianist, and we all know each other.
I'm the guy standing on the bar downtown next to Genie bottle. If you rub the bottle, a Genie with a hearing aid will come out and grant you a wish.
Lert it go Artie, you've been a useless, obnoxious shit as long and I've seen you posting here, and it hasn't got you banned.
(For me the last straw was you calling the OK volleyball player who was subjected to racist cult oppression by her coach and who you chose to slur as racist despite her being purely the victim in the situation. From then on you were just something tracked in on the bottom of someone's shoe, and that you will remain.)
Her teammates concluded she was a gay-basher and racist, as I recall, without any help from me -- but, likely plenty of help from her.
My post is not about your departing from libertarianism. I remember the post about the mostly libertarian part, and it is my mistake for not being more clear, but this just seems to me like a point that is funny to fall outside of the libertarian viewpoint. It is hurting no one to exclude certain viewpoints from social media.
Social media in today's society, though very widely used, is not an indispensable part, such as phones and internet. One can simply either choose not to use social media or use one of the many other platforms. That is where the argument ends for me. I understand that others can have differing viewpoints and I recognize the legitimacy of them but unless and until social media is integral to daily life I do not see is as reasonable for the government to put any speech restrictions on it.
Again, sorry for not being more clear in my original post.
In addition, allowing certain viewpoints on social media can lead to the proliferation of conspiracy theories and violence. Look at QAnon and January 6.
I do not use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and probably another couple of social media platforms. This makes this 'can't live without them' argument strange and weak, at least from my perspective.
Professor Volokh, my objection has nothing to do with libertarianism. My objection is that you seem keen to evade the Press Freedom Clause. And I do not understand why.
Because you don't understand the freedom of the press clause, I'd assume.
Eugenia has never really been a libertarian, though she has generally been a free speech hawk, which is why this turn toward constructing an argument for regulating the free speech of private actors in a way that makes it seem like we're not regulating the free speech of private actors has been a great disappointment.
I cannot recall any writing by Eugenia, from before the Trump years, that reflects this kind of interest. If I recall correctly, her writing in that period was more centered on her own pet theories about free speech, the second amendment, and (from time to time) word usage in published judicial opinions. The Trump years really seem to have turned her into a more partisan, ends-oriented scholar, looking for ways to force platforms like Twitter and Facebook to slant their algorithms even further toward the right.
I'm not sure what might have motivated the change. Menopause?
The thing is - this doesn't work at all. Except in the schoolyard up to about eighth grade, where the gang will go along with the jibe if the target is unpopular.
EV is not going to be discommoded by you "mis-sexing" him. It's like if you kept on referring to him as "Chinese" - he knows he's not Chinese, you know he's not Chinese, everybody else knows he's not Chinese, so when you refer to him as Chinese nobody sniggers and says "Haha, you got him with a good one there" - they look at you and think "What has SimonP been smoking ? And maybe his friends should take him aside and suggest he goes easy for a bit."
Nobody is worried about being "mis-sexed". It's people who want to be referred to by the sex that they're not, that get upset about being correctly described as the sex that they are.
A naked Emperor who would like you to believe he's decked out so splendidly that you couldn't afford it, is the kind of Emperor that worries about being called naked. Fully clothed Emperors don't care. And if you call that kind of Emperor out for their nakedness, the crowd doesn't laugh at them, it laughs at you.
Which is why the 'trans' insist on silencing the call-outs. They know that if the laughing starts, it isn't going to be directed at people calling the new Physician General a dude.
Because he IS a dude, and conspicuously so, the hilarity will be at his expense. Unless they've got Twitter standing there to silence it.
Just to back this up. Most of the commenters on here tend to misidentify me as male. I only bother to correct people though, when my sex is wrongly considered to give me a greater insight into a debate (a.k.a. any of the feminism subjects).
Thank you for backing this up. Now I'm going t walk it back 🙂
Because some names do not readiy identify the sex of the owner, mis-sexing is possible where the speaker only sees the name. eg "The Nobel Prize for Physics was awarded to Professor JP Twinklestein of the University of Bologna."
If JP is a gal, she may be mildly miffed at seeing herself referred to as a man (or male or he etc) in a report of who has won this year's Nobel Prizes, on the statistically sound, but genderishly-assuming, theory that someone who wins a Nobel Prize in Physics much more likely to be male than female.
If JP is particularly proud of her achievement in scrabbling to the top of a male dominated field, or is just generally unpleased about vestigial societal memes ascribing frilliness and bubble-headedness to women, then the mis-sexing might annoy her, and she might take steps to correct it. In that sense someone might actually care about being mis-sexed. But it's not a very big exception to the rule that mostly the joke is on the person making the mistake.
On the other hand JP might think it a good laugh.
If you say so, Lena. But if you're right, then maybe you understand better than Eugenia does why a prominent politician attempting to mock a prominent transgender official over her gender identity is more than "commenting" on transgender issues, and more harmful than a passing pseudonymous commentator mocking her in a similar fashion.
Anyway, the way people are responding to my calling her "Eugenia" is certainly telling, in itself. Not so effective, you say? Well, it seems to have triggered a few people...
If by "triggered" you mean eye rolling, sure.
Yes, you are for some reason very interested in conveying to me that my comments don't bother you at all, as are a number of others. Protesting a bit too much, I'd think.
“Of course, I appreciate that Twitter and Facebook are privately owned, and that no-one is being threated …”
IANAL, but the Woolworth’s lunch counter was privately owned as well
Yes. Perfect example of private protest.
More broadly, if you want private companies to have the right to refuse goods and services to persons based solely on skin color, I’ve got great news for you: You can publicly advocate for your position and ask Congress to repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Go for it.
Jon S: Great news indeed! And of course one can publicly advocate for the position that social media platforms shouldn't be able to discriminate in certain ways, either (much as, say, is already the law as to phone companies, and in some states as to large shopping malls or private university campuses).
But RobinGoodFellow's point, as I understand it, was that private property rights are indeed restricted when it comes to discrimination based on race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc., and that there's an analogy to banning private social media platforms from discriminating based on ideology. There are of course obvious counterarguments -- but I'm not sure how our having the right to argue for or against particular rules tells us much about what particular rules ought to be adopted.
You have a lot more faith in your commenters’ motivations for raising that specific example than I do. (And yes, I get the irony alert as I am commenting and thus a commenter)
"That specific example" happens to be the origin of treating private establishments as "public accommodations." Why wouldn't someone bring it up?!
Freedom of association has been demoted for so long that few people even remember it.
Goldwater was certainly right about the 1964 Civil Rights act. It did represent a toxic compromise with actual civil rights, that would inevitably spread.
"Yes. Perfect example of private protest."
He is saying we used law to force Woolworth's to serve everyone.
We can do the same with Twitter.
Perhaps we can. I think judicial enforcement of the First Amendment - at least as it relates to invalidation of duly enacted Congressional legislation- is largely a bad idea. Get Congress to pass legislation and a Oresident to sign it and that’s fine. I think it’s a horrible idea and inconsistent with general First Amendment values but I trust Congress and President on that (as little as I do) more than nine random lawyers who have had a lot of strings pulled for them and been in the right place at right time and then get a job for life to second guess democracy. Much larger conversation though
Wow. Are there any other parts of the Bill of Rights you'd rather not see enforced (to avoid "second-guessing democracy")? Depriving people of liberty or property without due process? Bills of attainder? Cruel & unusual punishments?
What do you think the Constitution is, especially the Bill of Rights -- a memo to the janitorial staff? Enough words to fulfill a short story contract?
The original point of the Bill of Rights was to prevent Congress from using the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact laws that would trample the People's natural rights. You think if Congress does so anyway, the Supreme Court and the other federal courts should not review those laws? What about State courts? No judicial review regarding the Bill of Rights would be its effective repeal.
Woolworth's was not engaged in protected speech. But I suspect you know that.
The protesters were
And the government eventually forced Woolworth to grant the protesters the use of the lunch counter.
You’re saying that the government shouldn’t/can’t do that in the case of Twitter.
Your example argues against your point.
Bevis, Woolworth is a place of public accommodation, without any special status with regard to speech, assembly, or press freedom. Twitter is a private publisher, protected by the Press Freedom Clause.
What you really mean is that it has special protections not afforded to mere newspapers and magazines.
Don Nico. I meant what I said. What you said is also correct.
If EV and others have their way, internet publishers will get regulated as common carriers, which would invade their 1A freedom to choose at pleasure what to publish. That would invite legal pressure to to regulate other publishers similarly. The similarities among internet publishers and others are far greater than anything which can be found to distinguish them. In defense of themselves, internet publishers would be quick to point to such similarities, and demand like regulation of their unregulated competitors. With 1A press freedom protection already bypassed, what legal principle would prevent it?
"And the government eventually forced Woolworth to grant the protesters the use of the lunch counter."
Ackshually, the protestors were successful in getting Woolworths to grant the protestors the use of the lunch counter without any state action.
It was the law that forced the Woolworth’s lunch counter to be segregated.
And with that law removed it ought to have been up to Woolworth’s whether the lunch counter was segregated.
Excellent point, I was thinking about offering it myself.
I'm not familiar with the particulars of this Woolworth store, but the deeper issue wasn't whether the store chose to discriminate who could sit at its lunch counter (maybe that management supported that, given the locale and prevailing social mores). The problem with Jim Crow was that even if Woolworth had wanted to integrate, the law prohibited it. THAT to me violates the freedom of association principle.
Red states should simply ban Twitter and Facebook and Google from all government networks and computers in their state at all levels until these platforms stop interfering in communications with voters about matters of public interest.
I personally would have no problem with that and personally don’t think it’s violate the Constitution. And I think the Supreme Court would likely agree if it were banning all social networks generally and not just ones whose views the state disagrees with.
It's just a stupid argument by Ben. What does he mean, that the DMV clerks shouldn't be able to check Facebook on their desktop machines on their lunch breaks? Otherwise, what "government networks and computers" is he even thinking about?
My guess is that DMV clerks cannot in fact check Facebook on their desktop machines on their lunch breaks.
Well, that was kind of my point. I don't know which government computer/networks he's trying to control here, and why he thinks it's a gotcha. Government employees are generally going to be checking FB/Twitter/etc. on their phones, not their government computers. (Unless he's thinking of computers used by patrons at public libraries, I guess, but that poses other 1A problems.)
Having opinions about generals is fine, but not having opinions about genitals.
Is this indeed a problem? Yes, undeniably. Is the remedy to involve the government in dictating speech policies to tech companies? No, absolutely not.
Capitalism does a fine job regulating individual companies. What it doesn't do well is regulating collusion between companies, and between companies and the government.
Jews will muzzle the goy at all turns. 1A is not jew approved, so stop the whining, free speech will be attacked, as will those who defend it. But do not ever criticize your master jews. Only jews can put four stars on a dick and call it a woman. Totally un-American.
Am Chai Yisrael!
We'll still be here as your corpse rots in the grave. Remember that, Pavel.
Are those words in the right order? https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3769384,00.html
For what I am saying, yes.
I don’t think it is necessary to impose common carrier status on big tech. It would be sufficient to simply remove the words “or otherwise objectionable” from S230 of the Communications Decency Act. The political censorship would end overnight.
It would, of course, not, because the First Amendment, not Section 230, is what allows companies to moderate their content.
What Section 230 allows, is for them to automatically get out of lawsuits resulting from that moderation.
And from TOS and reliance violations.
I assure you that so-called "Big Tech" has competent lawyers, and thus the companies that the phrase "Big Tech" comprises have drafted their TOS in ways that permit them to moderate at will. This stratagem might ensnare some small blog, but not "Big Tech."
Yes, § 230 does save websites some money in legal fees. But it does not change their rights vis-à-vis moderation.
If they were to continue moderating unobjectionable content, that would make them publishers, not common carriers. There is no way they will ever volunteer to be counted as publishers.
Twitter certainly leans left. But Facebook, the bigger, more influential platform? There's plenty of evidence that, if anything, it goes out of its way to accommodate the Right.
Nonsense.
What's nonsensical about the Techdirt post I linked?
Twitter doesn't understand the difference between this tweet and, say, a random twitter user calling another random twitter user who is a trans woman a "man".
This tweet contains something beyond the misgendering- it expresses a real political opinion, a critique of whether it is progress that instead of advancing a cis woman, the military advanced a trans woman (i.e., she was assigned male at birth), and whether we are improperly deprioritizing the advancement of women to advance trans women (who the congressperson sees as "men") instead.
That's a political argument. No way should Twitter have applied rules against harassment of trans people to that tweet.
"(i.e., she was assigned male at birth)"
Why do people keep saying things like this? Nobody cares what sex someone is assigned at birth. If she had been born a girl, but assigned "male" at birth, nobody would be talking about this.
They keep saying things like this because they want to deny that one's sex is an objective fact.
Yeah, but I still can't help but be surprised that people would buy into such a transparently BS definition.
If a doctor holds up a baby girl and says, "It's a boy!" that doesn't make the girl trans in any meaningful sense. Even if he puts "male" on the birth certificate.
A random twitter user calling another random twitter user who claims to be a "trans woman" a man isn't engaged in "harassment". He's just telling some lunatic that he's a lunatic and he's not going to play along. That's a real opinion, too, and only of late a "political" one, and as worthy of respect as the Congressvermin's expression of one.
I'm can't tell whether Banks intended to insult Levine or make a political point (or both). And, I'm not certain whether the distinction ought to make a difference in how we ought to treat Twitter for censoring the tweet.
Men are men.
Women are women.
That's all folks.
Similarly, childish superstition is childish superstition, no matter how many fancy hats, silly fairy tales, volumes of dogma, or billions in real estate are involved.
The reality-based world abides.
Aw, Eugenia, you needn't get your panties in a twist about it. The reason Twitter has a policy on "misgendering" and "deadnaming" trans people is that it's specifically a form of harassment, and not (as you imply) simply an expression of one's views on transgenderism generally.
I realize that gender identity is one of those sticky issues you just can't quite wrap your pretty little head around, precious, but you just go ahead now and let the men in the room handle these kinds of tricky questions.
Wait, are you calling Eugene Volokh a woman?
Perhaps to make the point that it's harassment?
Anyway, it's more annoying that harassing, I would imagine.
It's time for SimonePea to be muted.
"Aw, Eugenia..."
I guess that would be one way to get Kirkland to stop complaining about the all-male blog. And he could only identify as a woman while he's posting.
" I guess that would be one way to get Kirkland to stop complaining about the all-male blog. "
If only there were another way -- in modern American academia -- an odds-defyingly, modernity-mockingly White, male blog could avoid being described as a White, male blog . . .
It's impossible.
There will always be idiots who will continue to describe it that way, regardless of how many non-white, non-male bloggers they invite.
Even if "misgendering" or "deadnaming" are real concepts, it is not a "form of harassment" to discuss a public figure — let alone a government official! — in that way, any more than it is a "form of harassment" to note on Twitter that Jim Jordan enabled the sexual abuse of college students.
Lying isn't "noting", liar.
Hey, if you want to publicly announce that you're gullible enough to believe his naked denials (no pun intended!) in the teeth of multiple independent accusations to the contrary, feel free. (But of course it doesn't take a whole lot of courage to make such a public admission when one is hiding behind anonymity.)
"...in the teeth of multiple independent accusations..."
Haven't followed the details of this case, but "multiple accusations" was the argument for believing the claims in the day-care moral panic of the 80's. Sometimes there are multiple false accusations.
I don't think 5 year olds being coached by sex crimes investigators into telling fantastical stories about what happened to them when they were 3 or 4 is quite the same thing as college graduates coming forward and reporting what happened to them in college.
Like many people, I would regard misgendering and deadnaming as comparable (in both type and degree of offense) to referring to Obama as "the n-word President".
That's not harassment when said about them rather than to them, but I would expect that if I had spelled out the n-word then this comment would be taken down.
"The reason Twitter has a policy on “misgendering” and “deadnaming” trans people is that it’s specifically a form of harassment,"
Kinda, yeah: They're harassing anybody who dares to dispute that 'transgenders' are the sex they claim to be.
I'm hoping any of the people who choose to engage in the whole "transgender isn't a real thing" position answer a question for me.
Why do you care? What does someone else calling themselves something else matter to you? It isn't hurting anyone.
Or, if you prefer, why would a libertarian care about something someone chooses to do that doesn't hurt anyone else?
You picked the wrong blog to ask about what a libertarian would think.
Oh good, does that mean you actually read this blog entry, where the professor specifically addresses that?
It means I find a blog with this content that labels itself "Often libertarian" without mentioning "conservative" is hilariously disingenuous.
What do you think?
Why does it matter whether you think the blog accurately describes itself? It's not your blog. You don't need to read it or post in the comments.
Many people find your comments here objectionable as not hilarious but at minimum disingenuous. YMMV
What does someone else calling themselves something else matter to you? It isn’t hurting anyone.
Well mostly. Though if they choose to call themselves a doctor, accredited by the State of Illinois, then it would ne nice if they actually were a doctor accredied by the State of Illinois, before they start poking at you with instruments.
But I think the more general point is that what someone chooses to call himself is his business. His speech, his choice of words. But what I choose to call him is my business. My speech, my choice of words.
The idea that I should use your choice of words, rather than my choice of words, when I'm speaking about you seems to many people odder than the contrary proposition. Which is not to say that I might not find good reasons to incorporate some of your choices into mine, but if I find your choices fail to capture what I want to say, then there are some people who think it's OK for me to go with my own choices. You stupid sonofabitch 🙂
"Why do you care? What does someone else calling themselves something else matter to you? It isn’t hurting anyone."
I don't care what someone calls themselves. But the claim is that everybody else should choose to call them whatever they choose to call themselves.
And apparently many people care that there is a first female four-star officer. And they care beyond the fact that this officer chooses to call himself female.
The answer is that for the thing itself I don't care, and I don't think I know anyone who cares. If a man thinks he's a woman, and it makes him happy for everyone to relate to him as if he were a woman, it seems only polite to play along with his delusion and I almost always do. But I am clear in my own mind that it is a delusion, and if asked point blank I will say so, in the nicest way I can.
What I do care about, a great deal, is two things: First the sheer tyranny of forcing people to play along with someone's delusions, of forcing them to say things that aren't true and that they don't want to. But even more important is the point Orwell made many times, particularly in his note on 1984 about "Newspeak". There is a deliberate agenda behind the left's insistence that we constantly adopt new ways of speaking, which is to undermine the very idea that there is an objective reality that doesn't care what we call it. The political transgender movement (as opposed to the very very few people who actually are transsexual) is about undermining the whole way we look at life, and the basis of our entire society. The fact that normal people, i.e. those without birth defects, come in two kinds that have different natures and are not interchangeable, is one of the most certain things we know about the world, and undermining that knowledge is an important step in destroying civilization. That's why this upsets so many people, even those like me who when dealing with actual transsexuals do use the incorrect language that makes them happy.
PS: The danger is that if we only ever use the language that accepts this falsehood then people will gradually start to actually believe it.
Because we're being made to care.
Ideally, he could call himself a girl, everybody would have a good laugh about it, and treat the idea that he was the first female Physician General as a big joke. It could even be a funny, campy joke, making fun of the idea that it somehow matters whether this or that post is occupied by a woman.
But we're not permitted to, at least on Twitter. And so, we're not permitted to not care, Twitter forces us to care.
I don't give a damn if some guy is crazy enough to ignore his dingle (or cut it off, for all I care) and thinks he's a woman. But I do give a damn if you think you can force me or anyone else to play along with the lunacy.
Troll, but "someone else calling themselves something else" doesn't matter to anyone. What matters is that some folks are trying to force people to recite literal, blatant falsehoods (in order to keep their jobs, use Twitter, or whatever) as part of their authoritarian, science and biology denying anti-human agenda.
As a libertarian, I think adults (though not children) have the right to call themselves whatever they want, and to have whatever surgery they want and (to the extent that sex is irrelevant in a particular context) ask (but not demand) to be treated as whatever sex they want. (It is not always irrelevant; sports are an obvious counterexample.)
But the issue isn't that they do things; it's that they demand other people do. And want people who don't agree to be punished, socially and perhaps even legally. And that last act is hurting people.
I need to correct a misimpression expressed in your last sentence, though: libertarianism is a theory about the proper relationship between people and government; it is not a theory of never-judge-anyone. Just because I think conduct that does not hurt anyone else ought to be legal does not mean I cannot have an opinion on it. There are many things I think people have the right to do that I disapprove of.
Twitter is not a publisher. Rule 230 makes it so.
Twitter is a public forum. The only reason that nobody is thinking of it as a public accommodation is that the law hasn’t caught up to the concept yet. And since they’re only blocking out one side, it probably won’t.
Play the thought exercise that Twitter was blocking only women. All women. Men are free to post whatever they want. Do you think your argument would still work and that would be allowed? I mean, it’s not a place of public accommodation, right?
If it's just arbitrary, perhaps that would not be allowed; if it were ideological — if Twitter openly took the formal position that only men's opinions should be heard, and that permitting women to use its service would undermine that message — then isn't that Dale or Hurley?
Expanding on what Nieporent said (his analogy to Dale seems apt), a statute can declare that Twitter is a public forum (NJ law declared the BSA was a place of public accommodation), but cannot declare whether Twitter has First Amendment publisher rights (the BSA had First Amendment expressive association rights) that take precedence over the statute.
Jesus....Orwell was right. I swear, reading a lot of these comments, I cannot help but remember the term: Wrongthink
That is the crux of the issue here, isn't it? If you 'misgender' (is that even a real word?) someone, you are guilty of wrongthink and must be punished by the state. That is where this is headed.
Do we really want that?
Obviously some of use do.
We're already there. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/peter-vlaming-transgender-student-lawsuit_n_5d9600bce4b02911e116d773
One reason that legal systems have not sought to prohibit private censorship of platforms is that it's really hard (legislatively) to carve out an exception for spam that is distinct from commercial speech.
If you don't ban spam, then the platform becomes unusable, as 99% of traffic immediately becomes spam that cannot legally be blocked or removed. But if you do have an exception for spam, then that has to be a content-based objection (volume-based approaches to spam have been tried many times, they don't work).
Once you allow content-based judgement on the part of the private company running the site, you'd have to pass legislation that lists the legitimate purposes of content-based judgement (e.g. spam, indecency, defamation, copyright violation).
But then you have another problem: are you going to say that the rules for what is banned and what is permitted must be the same for all social media? Or are you going to have a list of things that must be banned (obscenity, defamation, copyright violation, harassment, ie things that are illegal) and a list of what may be banned (e.g. indecency, spam, violence) and allow social media to compete on the basis of that policy question? Either way, what is going to be on the list and what is not? You don't seem to be able to avoid these questions.
Finally, what about enforcement? If social media blocks something that their policy says they should have permitted, or permits something they should have blocked, what right of appeal is there? Who has a right of action in court? Social media will make mistakes, is a lawsuit the only way of getting them corrected? Given how long that will take, is there going to be access to an interim injunction requiring them to put things back up / take things down while the court case is resolved?
The only approach that would give people reasonably rapid resolutions is massive government intervention in the internal operations of these private companies, ie requiring the complaints and complaint-appeals departments to operate in particular ways that the government specifies so they will be able to reach the right decisions up-front without the need for every case to be litigated.
Aside, Rachel Levine is an admiral, not a general; the title of the post is incorrect.
Propose George Orwell misstates Our Great and Glorious Supreme Leasder Comrade Stalin’s preferred identity pronoun, or misstates The Most Enlightened Society and Advanced Economy in the World, Our Great and Glorious Supreme Leader’s preferred national identity.
I don’t think there is any question that Twitter etc. could delete Mr. Orwell’s statement.
But could they say that they were doing so for misinformation, for misstating the true facts about Our Great and Glorious Supreme Leader Comrade and The Most Enligtened Society and Advanced Economy in the World?
They could delete Mr. Orwell’s tweet because Mr. Orwell’s opinion disagrees with the way Our Great and Glorious Supreme Leader Comrade presents Our Great and Glorious Supreme Leader Comrade’s personal and national identity. There is no question such a tweet would contradict their policy.
But could they describe Mr. Orwell’s tweet as a misstatement of fact without subjecting themselves to libel claims?