Justice or Persecution? The Trump Dilemma
Join Reason on YouTube and Facebook at 12 p.m. Eastern for a discussion of the Trump indictments with Ilya Somin of the Volokh Conspiracy.
"Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence," wrote George Mason University Law Professor Ilya Somin following the four-count indictment filed by Special Counsel Jack Smith in early August. "For the head of state in a democracy, there are few more serious crimes than using fraud to try to stay in power after losing an election."
Somin has also said that "some of the charges seem compelling" in the case against Trump in Fulton County, Georgia.
Critics of the indictments have pointed out the conspicuous timing of the scheduled trial date, accused Trump's prosecutors of trying to "criminalize speech," and suggested that the former president is being held to a double standard. Others worry the prosecution will inspire "ever more aggressive tit-for-tat investigations."
Join Reason's Zach Weissmueller and Liz Wolfe for a live discussion about the political and social ramifications of the Trump indictments with Somin this Thursday at 12 p.m. Eastern on Reason's YouTube channel or Facebook page.
Sources referenced in this conversation:
Ilya Somin: "Retribution, Deterrence, and the Case for Prosecuting Trump for Conspiring to Overturn the 2020 Election"
Ilya Somin: "The Georgia Case Against Trump"
William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen on Trump's presidential eligibility and the 14th Amendment
The Washington Post: "FBI resisted opening probe into Trump's involvement in Jan. 6 for more than a year"
John Eastman's memo for how to challenge the 2020 election results
Ilya Somin on the 14th Amendment's Section 3 disqualification for office
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Join Reason's Zach Weissmueller and Liz Wolfe for a live discussion about the political and social ramifications of the Trump indictments with Somin this Thursday at 12 p.m. Eastern on Reason's YouTube channel or Facebook page.
Why would I? By your own blurb it sounds like it's going to be Liz, Zach, and Ilya jerking each other off to your preconceived notion about how the justice system is designed to dispense retribution and shooting down vague criticisms by nameless critics.
Not even really trying for the NPR "All Things Considered" subtlety.
What even is the point of this "discussion"? They all hate Trump and have shown they are unwilling to consider circumstances where he isn't guilty (whether that be legally or culturally.) I have a feeling they all agree with the assertion that it was the most secure election ever. I also doubt they'll take much time to address the novel legal theories used here or the similar/worse offenses coming from the other party in the recent past.
" I have a feeling they all agree with the assertion that it was the most secure election ever."
Boy howdy, if they thought the last election was secure, wait until they see the next one!
So much security !
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypillow-guy-mike-lindell-punts-timeline-for-trump-retaking-power-as-august-conspiracy-theories-get-wackier
MyPillow Guy Punts Timeline for Trump Retaking Power as Conspiracy Theories Get Wackier
https://www.salon.com/2021/08/22/mike-lindell-still-in-trumps-good-graces-has-new-prediction-reinstatement-by-new-years/
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Plucky Squirrell STILL argues with mystics?
Kergan Banbeck threw up his hands, turned once more to the sacerdote. “How can I halt his nonsense? How can I make him (the captured Weaponeer slave) see reason? The sacerdote reflected. “He speaks not nonsense, but rather a language you fail to understand. You can make him understand your language by erasing all knowledge and training from his mind, and replacing it with patterns of your own.” Jack Vance, The Dragon Masters.
The other Hitler's True Christian Believers still scrawled "Ich liebe Adolf Hitler" on walls in April 1945... when all of Germany was rubble and craters.
Sure, the Nazis were neopagans who banned Christmas and enacted Kirchenkampf, but Hank has his rhetoric.
I’ve been tempted for some time now to make some inquiries where he lives and get him out away. He’s clearly insane and likely a danger to himself.
Investigating allegations of democrat voter fraud is now illegal, or maybe even treason.
The circumstance in which he won't be guilty is if a jury finds him not guilty.
Of the crime they just sort of invented in order to charge him in the first place. Three years later.
Tony, you and your fellow travelers are pushing very hard to get your head in a noose.
>>Critics of the indictments
are correct. did Somin and Sullum stumble on a hope chest sale @PierOne or something?
“For the head of state in a democracy, there are few more serious crimes than using fraud to try to stay in power after losing an election.”
There’s probably a dozen or more clever quips about politicians using fraud while in power after winning elections being far more detrimental, but really I’m still too astounded by Ilya Somin’s utter ideologically-motivated, retardation-inducing stupidity to come up with one.
If this promo article is just a sample of the talk, it really is going to be a “Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul.” situation. If somebody were to inflict some temporary unconsciousness on Ilya at around 11:59 tomorrow it would really be doing us all a favor.
Knibb High Football rules!
“ Justice or Persecution? The Trump Dilemma”
Persecution.
Not even really a dilemma. It is obvious.
The dilemma is pretending otherwise and justifying it with a set of circumstances and "facts" so specific that it doesn't blow up in their face and disqualify their entire party of secession for a generation.
I'm sure Boden's Kim Jong Un levels of popularity will help them though.
What rarely comes up in these sorts of discussions is that someone can be a bad actor and be persecuted at the same time. The fact that so many of the indictments against Trump are “novel” interpretations of law is a major indicator of persecution. Having to apply the law in strange ways does not suggest the prosecution is being honest in their pursuit of the man.
There are "novel" applications of law, and then there are normal applications of law the Troof-Believers simply don't understand (and never will).
Evidenced by their utter bafflement about the function of an "overt act" in a criminal conspiracy charge. Always amusing, though.
Trump has committed no real crimes. All the charges are either utter bullshit, or not even real crimes. If they succeed it just proves something I’ve known for a very long time.
It’s time to cleanse this nation of its marxists. By any means necessary.
Yeah, the "dilemma" is "How do I wire up this bomb to only kill my enemies when it goes off?"
was the question even necessary???
Imagine Trump’s mugshot on a certain bottle of Swedish vodka: Absolut Persecution! I’ll take my cut for the idea in bitcoin thanks. OF COURSE it’s persecution!!!
"Don't question 'our' elections or you'll get yours coming!!!!", the Nazi-Regime.
Exaggerated? I think not. Enter Hillary's fraud-ed election claims. Did they indict Hillary for claiming fraud and her army of #NotMyPresdient ?insurrection? after Trumps inauguration? No; They spent years trying every angle possible to prosecute Trump.
This isn't justice or law. This is a Nazi-Regime "[WE] Nazi's RULE" gangland battle that is about to start another civil war. Initiated once again by Democrats 'enslave those icky people' for my benefit mentality. Will Trump get the same injustice as Enrique Tarrio just got? 22-years imprisonment for 'mean tweets'?
Poor widdle Baybeee! He can dish it out, bully dem bitches, rob and shoot dem hippies 'n brown folks, meddle in foreign elections... but he can't take it. --Edward G. Robinson, Little Caesar
Purple overpass rain barrel mackerel.
No "dilemma" here. Demunists are insane and need to be institutionalized for their own safety and the safety of others.
not insane -
they are very coldly calculating and comprehensive in their machinations...
-they take over the bureaucracy, the news media, the judiciary, the entertainment media, the education system etc etc... this is not the work of crazy people
-they flaunt their disdain for state and federal constitutions, they abuse all the levers of power all to create the reality of impotence in the minds of their opponents....
- i think they even couple this with infecting conservative and independent comment sections with pretend outraged conservative commenters to foment an impotent rage that could lead to violence.... i believe i see that in the comments on gateway pundit - they are so over the top and one sided i can just see soros smiling as he dispenses his 50 cents
They are not crazy- they are rational, they have a plan, they are executing with great success to date.
hmmm - i guess this really is the manifesto of a conspiracy nut
Not institutionalized. Exiled or eliminated.
Marxists have no right to exist.
Jack Smith, Tribe, and Somin should get a room with Vyshinsky and Freisler for a circle jerk: a collection of "great legal minds" in defense of their regime.
Keep an eye on Colorado; some are trying to keep Trump off the ballot there, citing Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Funny-not-funny part is, Trump hasn't been convicted of any crimes (Insurrection, Rebellion, giving aid or comfort to state enemies) under which such clause would be valid.
Moreover, in the hundreds of affidavits & statements of fact I've personally read, filed in cases against individuals alleged to have participated in the J6 Capitol Breach (and related criminal acts), the word Insurrection is never used. That term was injected into the narrative by the machinations of a press more interested in clicks than in ethics.
It's trial in the court of public opinion, wherein the prosecution is conducted by the legacy media, which also supplies the supporting evidence, and which renders the verdict before the copy goes to print.
It's not just persecution -- it's digital lynching.
Nothing can be more dangerous to democracy than people electing who they want.
Depending on ‘who’ they want.
Hitler’s rise to power traces to 1919, when he joined the German Workers’ Party that became the [Na]tional So[zi]alist Party. With his oratorical skills and use of propaganda, he soon became its leader. Hitler gained popularity nationwide by exploiting unrest during the Great Depression, and in 1932 **he placed second in the presidential race**. Hitler’s various maneuvers resulted in the winner, Paul von Hindenburg, appointing him chancellor in January 1933. The following month the Reichstag fire occurred, and it provided an excuse for a decree overriding all guarantees of freedom. (Hut Hum; Dismissing the US Constitution for COVID funding?)
I was delighted that Ilya described "retribution" and "deterrence". But, even though he wanted to limit his comments to the most common rationales for punishment in general, I still wish he also described "incapacitation." That is, some punishments are justified by making the perpetrator incapable of committing the crime during the punishment. For example, you can't burgle houses when you're behind bars.
I don't raise this issue because of the charges at hand, but just because it's a great concept to have in your mental toolbox.
As in "let's incapacitate our political opponent so that he can't campaign against our idiot president in the next election"? Like that?
^ I anticipate that this will be more honest than Ilya's arguments.