COVID Proves Andrew Yang's UBI Won't Work
Can the government really cut everyone a check without bankrupting the country and killing labor force participation?
Fears of automation-induced mass unemployment are at the heart of increasingly popular calls for a universal basic income (UBI).
Though the idea has been kicking around for centuries, it really caught fire recently because of Andrew Yang, who ran for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020 and to be mayor of New York City in 2021. His new memoir and political party, both called Forward, put a UBI at the center of his agenda. Last year, polls showed a majority of voters favoring the idea, and cities like Los Angeles, St. Paul, Atlanta, and Newark are experimenting with or considering local UBIs.
Yang tells Nick Gillespie that cash payments are better than government programs for the same reason that the libertarian economist Milton Friedman advocated slashing social welfare in favor of direct subsidies to the poor—because it's more effective and humane to put unrestricted cash directly in the hands of those who need it.
But has automation actually led to fewer jobs in the past? And what does America's experience with COVID-related stimulus checks that went to 90 percent of households and enhanced unemployment benefits suggest about the seriously negative effects of a UBI on labor force participation and the federal balance sheet?
Related: "Andrew Yang: 'Political Violence Is Becoming More and More of an Inevitability.'"
Edited by John Osterhoudt. Additional graphics by Regan Taylor, Isaac Reese, and Lex Villena.
Photos: mrsiraphol - www.freepik.com; Gage Skidmore/Flickr/Creative Commons; Liu Jie Xinhua News Agency/Newscom; Gage Skidmore/Flickr/Creative Commons; Everett Collection/Newscom; Gage Skidmore/Flickr/Creative Commons; Paul Weaver/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom; Gage Skidmore/Flickr/Creative Commons; Tesla; Richard B. Levine/Newscom; C. Neil Decrescenzo/ZUMA Press Wire/Newscom; Yichuan Cao/Sipa USA/Newscom; Mark Reinstein/ZUMA Wire/Newscom; Lev Radin/Pacific Press/Newscom;
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We already have a UBI experiment that's been running for several decades. We can use it to estimate what a UBI program will do to labor force participation rates. It gives a monthly check to people over age 62. The average retirement age is... 62.
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Unproductive Wage slaves to the capitalist system for 40 years....
"The average retirement age is... 62." - CE
Then they see some freedom at the end of their lives when their health, and their abilities are failing.
Sounds like a fantastic system.
LOL!
It's a fucking pyramid scheme that is doomed to failure.
Poor ThomasD. He doesn't know what a Pyramid Scheme is.
Sad, sad Neo-Liberal.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
And you don't seem to know what anything is. All these comments you have made and I think even the left leaning commenters are scratching their heads, wondering 'what's up with this imbecile'.
When you are paid a wage, you are not a slave, but if you collect a wage from the government, then the American tax payer becomes your slave. You have freedom all of your life moron, what people seem to lack these days is personal responsibility. And the system sucks because it is nothing more than a socialist style ponzi scheme.
During the slave era in the U.S. Slave owners paid their slaves a wage in the form of food and lodging.
So by the Kook Neo-Liberal non-logic of Smack Daddy, they weren't slaves at all.
LOL!
You're such a retard. Yet the 'slaves' didn't have the 'freedom' to escape their 'Slave Owners'...........
EXACTLY how American's can't escape TAXES and when those THEFT-TAXES are used specifically to someone else's benefit the beneficiary becomes the 'Slave Owner'.... The way you hide your Pro-Slavery mentality behind a 3rd Party toting Gov-Guns is pathetic.
Democrats... Still the party of Slavery..........
He can't help it all his teachers taught him wrong as a joke. The poor fool doesn't realize that he is the slave and the chains are on his mind.
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UBI set to $0. If you want something more, be productive.
UBI *and* minimum wage set to $0. Just like a robot sitting in a warehouse rusting doesn't benefit a corporation, people roaming the streets with no job and no income doesn't benefit them either. The human can't compete with the robot producing 500 widgets an hour. The human's competitive advantage is that it can fix a broken robot, a handful of defective witdgets, and sweep the floors at $3/hr. and with the robot producing 500 widgets/hr. $3/hr. means the nhuman can afford several thousand widgets a year.
I might go for that. But the automation isn't the problem. The bigger the market the more room for new jobs. We have several orders of magnitude more automation than did Adam Smith's era, but we still can manage full employment if we want to. Heck, allowing women into the workforce after WWII actually spurred job growth, rather than taking jobs away from men as was predicted.
But automation does reduce *unskilled* jobs. Meaning people need to get skilled. Dropping out of school to go work at McDonald's the rest of your life is not an option.
And biology caps IQs. That caps some peoples capacity to do skilled jobs. So this will likely converge into a problem at one point and I'm not confident the economy can fix that forever if we get really good at automation.
Automation happens when it's cheaper than hiring people, and minimum wage increases the cost of hiring people. Seems to me like minimum wage is the enemy of low-IQ employment, not automation.
"And biology caps IQs. That caps some peoples capacity to do skilled jobs."
This is exactly the poor reasoning that opens the door for socialist and protectionist meddling.
You don't need to be particularly clever to deliver value that others are willing to pay for. If you really think skilled jobs require someone with even normal IQ, then you have probably never worked in a truly blue collar community. I have worked with people that can't read, but deliver some of the best carpentry I've ever seen. High functioning alcoholics who can replumb your house overnight. And I have seen HVAC repair people that I wouldn't trust getting my groceries if I didn't know they could troubleshoot problems that had stumped plenty of other people.
Being smart helps- but far more, being attuned to what others value and being willing to put in the necessary work to deliver that to them is critical.
"If you really think skilled jobs require someone with even normal IQ, then you have probably never worked in a truly blue collar community."
They don't necessarily. But there are clear correlations between the jobs you named and IQ. The replacement will likely happen. Denying the problem won't help you solve it.
"I have worked with people that can't read, but deliver some of the best carpentry I've ever seen. "
Machines can already do impressive art. They will do that kind of carpentry too. GANs can produce artifacts today that humans often can't distinguish from reality:
https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/
This one still produces errors sometimes. But not so often. Your carpentry will follow. The consumers won't care.
"High functioning alcoholics who can replumb your house overnight."
High functioning machines will be able to do that as well and won't have a need to get drunk while doing it.
"And I have seen HVAC repair people that I wouldn't trust getting my groceries if I didn't know they could troubleshoot problems that had stumped plenty of other people."
Your HVAC might be able to troubleshoot itself in the future. Just saying.
No, man, you don't understand carpentry at all. Seriously, there is an entire end of high end carpentry that is valuable PRECISELY because it cannot be done by machine. And whenever machines do it, some new form of wood working takes off precisely because the people who were doing the (now automated) stuff start creating unique and novel new methods.
Much of the 2010's era rise in Japanese Joinery in woodworking was caused by the fact that people could easily create mortise and tennon, and dovetail joints with machines- which had previously been a sign of high end carpentry. And then when things like live-edge tables with butterfly pins became automated, people moved onto mixed media with cement and epoxy and other joins.
It is a never ending cycle that we cannot predict.
That's basically what I said below here.
https://reason.com/video/2021/10/28/covid-proves-andrew-yangs-ubi-wont-work/?comments=true#comment-9181400
And which is unimaginative, as GANs can already do some creative work, today. In fact, some of them produce art I wouldn't hesitate to decorate my living room with.
We might also talking about niche innovation markets, and I never said those won't still be a human domain. But just like you, Overt seems to like to turn outliers into generalities when reasoning about things whose potential outcomes he doesn't like.
Carpentry innovation may not be done by machines. Building and implementing the innovation automatically though, faster than humans can? Yes, certainly. And the lag will shrink.
But just like you, Overt seems to like to turn outliers into generalities when reasoning about things whose potential outcomes he doesn't like.
Throwing the word "like" in there to make it about personal preference. Not playing. Over and out.
This isn't a niche thing. This happens in pretty much every industry out there. Either the automation is a tool that makes existing people more productive, or it makes something that was overwhelmingly expensive (and available to only the elite) more affordable to the masses, and the people start working on something the machines/automation can't do.
Automation destroyed the farming industry...except we don't see mass unemployment. People moved on to doing stuff that machines were ill suited to do. For every roomba, there are still maids in hotels making beds. This shit is not as automatable as you think.
If we truly get to a world where everything is automated, then we no longer have an economy based on scarcity. That is so fundamentally utopist and fantastical that if it ACTUALLY happens, humanity will either have become redundant and thrown out, or supporting people who have nothing valuable to offer won't be a problem.
"For every roomba, there are still maids in hotels making beds. This shit is not as automatable as you think."
Maybe. But it probably is more automatable than you think.
Also too much overt binary thinking, Overt. I never talked about a world where "everything" is automated. I do not concern myself with Star Trek right now. Just with some degree of automation that will produce effects you may not expect.
CNC router is better than anyone will ever be, and its available to anyone to purchase.
If you are commenting on design and aesthetic, humans have that for a while yet, but precision is automated. Competent laborers still needed for flexibility of work, but machine assistance increases as fast as fiscally possible for many in any industry.
And also, you don't need a Mensa adept to run a CNC. Those guys who were manually running routers and shapers before can just as easily run a CNC.
The day that a fucking robot can crawl through the attic of a 1890s brownstone, replacing ceiling tiles fabricated with a design they created, is very, very far off. And low-educated hard workers can still make money at it today.
"And also, you don't need a Mensa adept to run a CNC."
Certainly. You don't need someone out of the top 5% for that. More like the top 20%. Maybe 30%. Would be to the right of the median. That is not what I am talking about. Furthermore, nobody is talking about "I, Robot" in here either. Disruptions may happen far below that.
Bro, I agree with a lot of what you often write but you right now read like someone who has never worked in a small business that relies on blue collar labor. You automate CNC but you still need guys pulling materials from the warehouse. You need people converting files. You need people getting that guy coffee, while learning how to do that job. You need sales people going out making ridiculous promises that the cnc guy needs to figure out.
It might make sense to automate when volume gets high but for smaller businesses you just hire the idiot on the street corner. Now you might argue that the end game is massive companies that automate everything and I will agree with you because that is what the mass centralization of a huge government creates. But is t a problem for free markets.
Well thank you for your responses. It's good to know about some of the reasons why people would disagree with me on this.
And yes, I have worked a few blue collar jobs. Let's see what happens within the next 10 years or so. I don't know.
CNC is great for production work. Where you have a very stable material and are making multiple copies. For most custom woodworking, where most, if not all pieces are one offs it's a waste if time and energy. It's even worse when you are dealing with lively woods. Machined African bloodwood looks fantastic and gives you nice crisp edges, but it has a crap ton of internal tension so moves whenever you remove enough material. Things that go into the CNC nicely squared often come out with gnarly twists or bows.
No, man, you don't understand carpentry at all. Seriously, there is an entire end of high end carpentry that is valuable PRECISELY because it cannot be done by machine.
Even then, there's a large and growing market for artisanal and organic stuff. Not saying I agree with it, but it's there. There is (and kinda always has been) also several industries around things like agritourism, where humans essentially perform agricultural labor as a ceremonial or performative art. A 'true' carpenter might consider something like that to be sacrilege, but it's a pretty semantic difference between 'overpaid artisanal craftsman' and 'paid actor'.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for a robot that can perform carpentry in my living room, or come to my house or apartment buildings to work on plumbing and HVAC.
Good. Because that would mean you are committing suicide by self-suffocation due to missing the point.
"If you really think skilled jobs require someone with even normal IQ, then you have probably never worked in a truly blue collar community. I have worked with people that can't read, but deliver some of the best carpentry I've ever seen. High functioning alcoholics who can replumb your house overnight."
No. Literacy, education and substance abuse are not directly tied to intellect. But a dumbass does not do good work in any field.
“You don't need to be particularly clever to deliver value that others are willing to pay for”
True. As an example, most strippers I’ve known aren’t that clever, but manage to earn good money.
"And biology caps IQs." - IQ 5.56
True. What is to be done with the genetic inferiors of the U.S. Republican South?
Send another virus to exterminate more of them?
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
VendRetard is butthurt and very scared because of the recent course of events in Congress where the AG and Fauci are being taken apart by Republicans who care about the country.
VendRetard is also terrified and very cranky because of the way democrats are politically crashing right now. It is therefore understandable that a cockroach like him would like to see a virus take care of the problems of his party, as he and his ilk have no hope to solve their problems on their own.
VendRetard, in a psychotic act divorce from reality, clings to an illusion of general AI emerging way sooner than it will to take care of what his virus cannot take care of. The reason is that VendRetard is a defeated, unproductive loser who couldn't even be saved by UBI.
I'm wondering if reason sends these lefty retards in to increase activity and traffic in the comment section to boost ad revenue.
Oh, so now you're genetically superior. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? Don't tell me, don't tell me. I know this one, it's right on the tip of my tongue. You're a ..... a...... um what was that word again.
NAZI!!!!!!!
Meaning people need to get skilled.
You need an answer for that subset of people whose skills are limited or won't develop beyond a certain point. Libertarianism often has no answer for that-- or takes the utopian view that everyone can LearnToCode, and progressives have an answer, but it's the wrong one.
I don't claim to have an answer, but at least I recognize it's a problem. And perhaps, yes, it's a problem that can't be fixed and has to evolve out of the system (or to use another term, perhaps let it die out of the system).
The answer may really just be that the point where we have the technology to replace this subset of people with machines will also be the point at which our productivity as a society will be high enough to carry these people (UBI might then be appropriate, though it isn't right now I think). Because if one thing is certain, then it is that our genes won't makes us that much smarter fast enough.
You need an answer for that subset of people whose skills are limited or won't develop beyond a certain point.
Well right now it's illegal for them to sell their labor for what it is worth, so nobody pays them.
Libertarianism often has no answer for that-- or takes the utopian view that everyone can LearnToCode, and progressives have an answer, but it's the wrong one.
Nice straw man. There will always be menial tasks for people to do as long as it's legal. There's a limit as to what can be automated, a limit as to how many people can own it, and a lag time between new ideas and automated tasks.
Right now the major driver of automation and unskilled unemployment is minimum wage.
"There will always be menial tasks for people to do as long as it's legal."
Don't think so. Once an agent is ready to grab things and see like a human can, it can be programmed to perform any such menial tasks. This is has ceased to be sci fi.
"Right now the major driver of automation and unskilled unemployment is minimum wage."
And the wage that is appropriate to pay for a menial task, if not 0, can be so low that a living cannot be made from it. Which is the case when a machine can learn any such task and then do it for 24 hours. And training an agent with such capabilities may only take. Let it be weeks:
"and a lag time between new ideas and automated tasks."
This lag can reduce to a point where it won't be feasible for someone with an IQ of 83 to have a job for much longer than a few weeks on end.
Maybe if scarcity ceases to be a thing and there are enough robots for everyone who wants them. I doubt that is going to happen.
Living wage is subjective. In high school I worked at McDonalds with a retarded guy who was a millionaire. He lived in a small apartment, rode a bicycle, and saved everything else. Don't know what he did after retiring.
Again being that human desires are limited only by imagination, while the quantity of goods and services are finite, I disagree that there won't be menial jobs.
Absolutely this^^
30 years of "THOU SHALT GO TO COLLEGE" has brainwashed people into believing that a person's worth is somehow dependent on how smart they are. It is a rubbish belief.
If you want to make it in life, show up to work, keep your eyes open for opportunities and be willing to put off some gratification a little while to achieve what you want. My kid niece currently runs regional marketing for a major grocery store chain despite having some community college under her belt. She is now buying a house at 25- something that tons of my highly educated friends couldn't manage. And she did this by working hard and building good relationships, getting the most out of her individual stores.
Shit, I've had admins who were basically 45 year old single mothers who had their kids in highschool. They were poorly educated, continued to make bad life decisions, but they could schedule meetings, order lunch and plan offsites well enough that I could justify a decent salary for them.
When you make these broad generalizations about the economy and people in general, you lose site of just how adaptive everyone in this country is.
"30 years of "THOU SHALT GO TO COLLEGE" has brainwashed people into believing that a person's worth is somehow dependent on how smart they are."
I never said college was the answer. It is not. Not to this problem. You are still stuck not acknowledging the problem however.
"My kid niece currently runs regional marketing for a major grocery store chain despite having some community college under her belt. She is now buying a house at 25- something that tons of my highly educated friends couldn't manage."
Non sequitur to the question of how to take care of those that aren't as smart as your niece and won't be able to find a job. And don't tell me she isn't. What she did is not merely the result of hard labor and determination. Though I admit that "Everyone can make if they work hard enough" is a nice fallacy device that has been helping to maintain world views for hundreds of years. Adaptation has limits.
"Though I admit that "Everyone can make if they work hard enough" is a nice fallacy device that has been helping to maintain world views for hundreds of years. Adaptation has limits."
Why is it a fallacy? So far, every time innovation and technology has drastically displaced working populations, more employment- not less- has been the ultimate result. When automation moved millions off farms, they didn't go slumming in the streets. They got different jobs. When industrialization decimated the artisan population in the western world, the country continued to prosper. Even when robots automated many of the auto jobs away here in the US, Auto employment increased.
Every SINGLE time this has happened in the past, the people you worry about- the un-educated, low intelligence- appear to do just fine. Automation happens because it increases productivity- that productivity makes outputs (widgets) cheaper or allows the producer to invest in other areas. IN the case of widgets being cheaper, widget buyers now have more disposable income, which means they can buy additional goods and services- goods and services that maybe were too expensive before because the labor market was focused in other (automatable) areas.
Never before in history has automation made unskilled labor unnecessary and yet you are just wildly claiming that I am the one with fallacious reasoning.
We never had a technology that can actually emulate higher level reasoning. This might be a little different. Before the invention of the nuclear bomb, you would have told me:
"Never before in history has technology made it possible to build a bomb that can wipe out entire neighborhoods or cities and yet you are just wildly claiming that I am the one with fallacious reasoning."
Then some other guy said E = mc^2. Same with the internet. Or anything else you are choosing to ignore right now.
"Maybe if scarcity ceases to be a thing and there are enough robots for everyone who wants them. I doubt that is going to happen."
What I am saying doesn't require elimination of scarcity, just sufficient reduction of it. Again, not a binary question. Not just "scarcity/not scarcity". I argue that artificial generalized intelligence is not required to build factories where AI agents can produce and repair other AI agents. And human population size is probably capped at about 10 billion, as reproduction decreases with increasing wealth.
"Living wage is subjective. In high school I worked at McDonalds with a retarded guy who was a millionaire."
Don't turn 99.9th percentile outliers into a rule though.
"Again being that human desires are limited only by imagination, while the quantity of goods and services are finite, I disagree that there won't be menial jobs."
I don't say there won't be menial jobs. I say there won't be menial jobs that can be performed by humans. Because the lag between invention of new menial jobs and them being learned by AI agents will reduce to days. But even it reducing to weeks would terminally disrupt the unskilled job market.
I argue that artificial generalized intelligence is not required to build factories where AI agents can produce and repair other AI agents.
I'm sorry but I hesitate to put that outside the realm of science fiction. The amount of resources required for such agents would be immense. Let's say that it does happen. I still can't be persuaded that there would be enough of these agents (automates slaves perhaps) to make satisfy all needs. We're always going to need good old fashioned human labor.
"We're always going to need good old fashioned human labor."
Statements that contain "always" are "never" correct outside of mathematics.
"I still can't be persuaded that there would be enough of these agents".
Said factories aren't likely to happen at least in the next few decades. I never said anything to the contrary. You can always hope to die before it happens.
Though a replacement of large shares of the labor market is already happening. If it will take until after you die for this to become a serious problem for society, I don't know. I wouldn't bet on that.
Luddites said something similar. No, automation will never be a "problem". All automation does is free people to do new things. And they will do new things. Because automation is finite while imagination and ingenuity are not.
" No, automation will never be a "problem". All automation does is free people to do new things. And they will do new things. Because automation is finite while imagination and ingenuity are not."
Statements that are this generalized aren't even worth engaging.
Look up Luddites. Seriously.
Look up straw man. Seriously.
Won't the automated utopia you describe lower costs and reduce scarcity? If not, why will it happen? If so, the costs of living will decrease, not increase. The normal drivers of price should be trending down in such a scenario.
I'm making that point above, quite a while ago. A sufficient level of automation could make UBI a viable alternative, because we would be productive enough to handle that. Currently, UBI is inappropriate and would just cause people to stay home.
Or maybe prices would be so low that we wouldn't need anything like that. That would be best.
I agree that getting rid of the minimum wage would be a major factor, but the chances of eliminating the minimum wage in the modern political climate as of now, and likely going long into the figure is probably about as good as getting the government out of marriage. So we're stuck with it, so you'll need another answer that works within the RealPolitik of our current system.
Inflation and the lockdowns have pretty much wiped out the minimum wage debate. I visited a low cost Midwestern state this summer, and the radio was full of ads for unskilled laborers (fast food, grocery store, janitorial and light manufacturing), starting at 14 to 17 bucks an hour, with signing bonuses in the 1K to 3K range. Wages for unskilled work were over 15 bucks an hour in Silicon Valley several years ago. 15 bucks an hour will hardly price anyone out of work now.
Your argument would also need to address the entire Gordian knot of other governmental factors that drive prices up for rent, food, gas, and almost every other area of living which is what drives the desire to both have and forever increase the minimum wage.
You need an answer for that subset of people whose skills are limited or won't develop beyond a certain point.
No you don't. Or, you don't need *another* answer. As was pointed out elsewhere, the greatest (willing to cede it's just very, very significant) threat to the poor in this country is obesity:
And, of note, at 35%, we're talking about a large number of people who are well above the line for 'dysfunctionally retarded'.
can't be fixed and has to evolve out of the system (or to use another term, perhaps let it die out of the system)
Whether you fix it or not, it will evolve out of the system. The question is whether you die before it happens or trying to force it to.
I've frequently been decried as a Luddite for opposing technology for technology's sake. Funny thing to see some of those same people say that technology should be opposed because stupid people exist.
The Unabomber opposed tech for techs sake too. But maybe there will be human purist economies and communities that will split from AI based societies and set up their own, localist-organized areas.
I question whether any society that opposes or calls for the destruction intelligence, natural or organic, is itself intelligent.
natural or organic
Grr... natural or artificial. Eliminating a mortal threat is one thing, but even exceedingly simple human intelligence has regarded violence as a final option for quite some time.
The Unabomber opposed tech for techs sake too.
It's been a while since I read the manifesto, but he opposed tech, (full stop). I'm unable to distinguish tech for tech's sake from fraud. I've heard the thinking described as 'Third Generation Futurism'. I don't think Useless Machines should be banned or destroyed, but to herald the ability to change the batteries on two Teslas, and provide them with 600 mi. of range, in the time it takes to pump 600 mi. of range into a diesel-fueled vehicle anything between a pointless novelty and a scam.
I've frequently been decried as a Luddite for opposing technology for technology's sake. Funny thing to see some of those same people say that technology should be opposed because stupid people exist.
OT: I was recently engaged in a discussion about the use of " vs. “”. It was hilarious to hear tech people argue that the latter was the proper way, despite the fact that it is/was more complicated, essentially because typewriter/keyboard manufacturers did technology wrong when they made things easier.
Libertarianism doesn’t need an answer. An individual has an obligation to themself.
Yup. If you chose to live a wretched (or not so wretched) life that resulted in a premature death. I don't have to like it (and am rationally obligated to oppose it). My only obligation is to not knowingly cause it.
I agree that libertarianism, in the broadest philosophical sense, doesn't need an answer. That's why the 12 libertarians which reside in the country have to live with everyone else's answer.
The libertarian answer is that the world will always need "ditch diggers" even when there are machines that dig actual ditches.
It's cold, but it has the practical benefit of being true and honest.
Build products that last twice as long and you half the production needed. You half the pollution, and you double freedom from wage slavery.
There is no slavery today except for some of the socialist countries and some Arab nations.
But automation does reduce *unskilled* jobs.
Disagree. Nail guns eliminated a number of jobs that required the ability to use a hammer as a "skill" but it also generated a number of jobs that required the ability to use a nail gun as a "skill", maintain a nail gun as a "skill", and distribute a nail gun as a "skill". Everyone not able to operate a hammer but unable to operate a nail gun recieved housing at a cost resulting from the advent of the nail gun and not a hammer.
That's not to say that occupational dead ends don't happen, but that they are minimal/transient so far as federal regulation is concerned. My 4 yr. old (when he was 4) read and used technology at a level that couldn't be fathomed by the FF, when unions upended the Industrial Revolution, or even when Clinton raised the minimum wage. Even the no-shit mentally retarded are more capable today than they were in Adam Smith's era.
Dropping out of school to go work at McDs is as much an option as completing your Gender Studies degree and going to work at Starbucks. The idea that it can't or shouldn't be, in context, is disriminatory against people who can flip a burger or brew coffee, but can't complete a college degree.
Yes. Generally speaking, show me a "market failure" and I will show you a market currently solving for some shake up in equilibrium.
100 years ago, 80% of our country worked in agriculture. It took 80% of our country's labor to produce the food necessary to feed us. WE DESTROYED the jobs of about 90% of the agricultural economy, and it is a good thing. And yet year over year, people decried the "shrinking farmer jobs" and insisted that somehow some reason we needed to get them back.
Funny... Last time I was looking in the Job market there were companies requesting people with 10 years experience in programming languages that had not even existed for 5 years.
So you see the reason for employers not being able to find workers.
LOL!
Making up shit again.
Automation will free up humans from doing drudgery for a living and allow all of us to be influencers on social media.
Until AI takes over that as well.
Social media has been dominated by artificial inception since the beginning. Arguably, it was created by artificial intelligence.
AI will take over the job of actors soon enough. Everything will be CGI in 10 to 20 years. BooBYube already has several virtual influencers, and there have been virtual holographic performers giving concerts in Japan for the last decade.
AI has been in the wilderness since the 60's. However there is now sufficient processing power that machines have surpassed humans in many fields of expertise.
By the end of this decade AI processing power will have increased by an order of magnitude as chips come on line that are specifically designed to mimic neuronal synapses.
General intelligence will then begin to emerge that is on par with that of people, and machines will be intelligent enough to take on many of the menial tasks now performed by people.
Economies need to prepare for this revolution in work.
Since Corporations have proven themselves incapable of long term planning, it is up to Government to do the planning and regulation of those industries to produce a transition that is not a complete Capitalist disaster.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
VendRetard thinks he can weaponize a normal discussion about the economic consequences of AI to inconvenience comment readers with his putrid presence and to shill for premature implementation of UBI. VendRetard clings to an illusion of AGI emerging within a decade because he is too weak and defeated to solve any of his problems without robots or handouts. He is neither familiar with the technology nor the research.
The impotent, desperately shilling partisan known as VendRetard has the premonition that he will still be alive to see the abject failure of those he has been wasting his life shilling for. He won't be around to comment when it happens, as he will be busy getting his diapers changed and taking tranquilizers.
Very true.
"people roaming the streets with no job and no income doesn't benefit them either."
But we must punish them for not being being part of the economy. Push them into the streets, starve them, deny them medical care, and then they will simply die.
It's the Capitalist way.
They punish themselves idiot.
"They punish themselves Idiot." - Smack Stupid
Unlike sheeple like you, they have no desire to be wage slaves.
They know that Neo-Liberal policies have destroyed their future and set their country on the path of oblivion.
The world is watching the U.S. go down in flames.... Destroyed by Neo-Liberal failure after Neo-Liberal failure.
Wage slave live in china you blithering idiot. You just don't want to get a job, or from your previous comments are not qualified for a decent job. And for your info I run my own business, and will hire, I just won't hire idiot commietards like yourself.
Virtually all work in modern economies is unnecessary as a result of products that are designed to fail, to produce new sales in the future.
Your primary failure is your failure to realize what is and is not productive.
It makes me laugh.
Your stupidity makes me laugh.
"Your stupidity makes me laugh." - Smack Daddy
If you had an IQ above 50 you would have stated what being "productive" is in your view.
LOL
You didn't because you are clueless.
If your work produces a product or completes a service it is productive. Your original statement was completely false. If socialism is so great why does it fail every time it is tried? If capitalism is so bad then why does it outperform socialist economies every time?
Your comments are childish at best. Get a job loser.
It's not the unemployment that causes UBI, it's the UBI that causes unemployment.
Circular, but yes.
In my community the actual minimum wage is more than $15, more like $18 an hour; and yet if someone is receiving an entitlement for anything remotely close to that [or just enough to get by], they actually choose to stay home rather than get a job.
You'd think it was rocket science.
Yet there's still plenty of people hustling away at crappy jobs.
Some people aren’t lazy bums.
Trucking companies all over America are so desperate for drivers now that practically anyone who can read road signs and get a drivers' license can start off at $100k after a couple of weeks of training, even with no experience.
My concern though is that our Millennials and Zoomers by and large are so Goddamn fucking lazy and worthless that I don't think most of them would drive a truck even for a million bucks a year. Since our border is being beseiged by more innigrants than ever before, the idiot Biden might as well just send them all straight to these companies.
And they'll be on the phone.
An yet trucking companies claim they can't find workers.
I read an article two days ago about a gentleman who applied for 60 jobs in his area. No response from all but 1, and that one offered a lower wage than advertised.
That's Capitalism for you.
No, that's propaganda for ya.
Sorry, boy it's called news.
Not the fake news that you invent for yourself.
Yes it is called propaganda, I can't help it that you were taught a bunch of commie bullshit by you instructors, but the healing can start now.
Sure you did. We believe you!
Do you have any evidence that UBI causes unemployment?
Isn't unemployment what most people want?
It's called retirement... Right?
Yes, it's called reality. I heard it straight from the horses mouth." I want 25$ an hour for this 13$ an hour job or I will just stay home and keep collecting a check from the government." Many companies in this state can't get people to work because of that very same reason, and for you to be ignorant of this tells me that you must not have any real grasp of or relationship with the private sector.
"Yes, it's called reality." - Smack Stupid
And your reality consisted of a manufactured story rather than facts.
There is no worker shortage. There never has been a worker shortage. There is only the refusal of corporations to pay adequate wages to attract the workers they want and the refusal of corporations to train people to perform the tasks they want done.
I've seen help wanted adds asking for people who have 10 years experience programming in languages that have only existed for 5 years.
LOL. That is one of the many reasons why American Capitalism is a sick joke.
I am an employer you dipshit, and I find it funny the whiney little socialists want to get paid more for 0 experience and atb the same time don't want to pay more for the products they uselessly consume.
Is this idiot a sock, or a new prog troll?
I think he's a basement dwelling troll pulling his own sock puppet.
I actually wonder if reason is sending impotent whiners like VendRetard in to increase comment activity and traffic, because that benefits them in multiple ways, including ad revenue.
"And what does America's experience with COVID-related stimulus checks that went to 90 percent of households and enhanced unemployment benefits suggest about the seriously negative effects of a UBI on labor force participation"
Where I live it's called a severe labor shortage. When people don't have to work, amazingly, they don't work.
What labor shortage?
There are lots of people out there who are applying for those available jobs.
Why aren't employers hiring and training them?
You live in an imaginary world.
In the U.S. there is suddenly a demand for truckers.
Corporations are whining that they can't find any.
There are lots of workers out there who would drive for them.
Why aren't they hiring?
1. Because they refuse to train the workers they hire.
2. Because they want want long term experience that new drivers don't have.
LOL.
There are lots of workers out there. Capitalists simply refuse to hire them.
Because they are being payed by the government to sit at home. I have first hand knowledge of what is going on in the trucking industry because I rely on those trucks to move goods, and the word is that many of the low level "trained" truck drivers won't come to work. The same for throwers in the warehouses.
Poverty should be painful. That way people will avoid it. Ben Franklin said something like that. Here we go.
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
― Benjamin Franklin
Though that's not fair considering all the government barriers to employment. Especially self employment. Once upon a time all it took was a great idea. Now by the time you're done asking permission and obeying orders you forget what the idea was.
"Now by the time you're done asking permission and obeying orders ..."
A crony connected to the government has stolen your idea and run with it. (FTFY)
Once upon a time in America you could kill some indians, take their land, buy some black people and force them to work the land.
Ain't Capitalism grand?
What country has that never happened in? I bet you can't name one, because though out history all lands once belonged to someone else and all those cultures engaged in slavery. What makes America so different? Why don't you hold this view for all other nations? Or is it that you are just another lazy crybaby that hates America because we won't wipe you ass?
It’s far more benign than every other economic system to ever exist. You sound like someone that the great Joe McCarthy should have destroyed. A true deviant Marxist.
"Poverty should be painful. "
And disease too.
Life should be made as hard as possible so that people will strive to make it better.
Life is hard. This is the closest you have come to logic so far.
Life is hard?
Really?
You must be a spectacular loser.
And you were so close.
Life is hard if you are a mollycoddled, progressive dead end of evolution like VendRetard. An ineffective, whiny, partisan misfire on a sinking ship yelling at clouds (and who might actually serve the one purpose of generating traffic and ad revenue for reason by transparently trolling).
Life should be as hard as possible for marxists. Like you.
Wow, Nick, you really handed Andy his ass on this one. First you interview him and are being all nice and Joe-Rogany about it, now this. I'm impressed.
Welfare, if we have it, should be for those who need it. UBI is for anyone who wants it. That's the problem.
That said, a UBI set low but reasonable *could* work if it replaced all the other welfare pieces. But it needs to be low, not like current pandemic measures that pay more than actually working, and it needs to replace all the other forms of welfare, so people aren't going home with a Layered Dole Cake. It should never be a mechanism to incentive people to just stay home and do nothing but lounge.
Then it becomes an argument over basic needs. What are basic needs and how much do they cost? But when the definer of needs is the government, and the money belongs to someone else, there really is no limit to what will be considered a basic need.
Or to put it another way, the government should never be in the business of charity.
Government should be in the business of maximizing the joy their citizens have for living.
In the U.S. where Neo-Liberal policies have pushed the state past the point of collapse, people don't have much joy in their lives.
And they will have even less As America continues on it's path to non-existence.
The world is laughing.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
"And they will have even less As America continues on it's path to non-existence."
Telling from his commenting times, VendRetard is probably really a jealous European, possibly a loser who left the US because he couldn't make it here.
He hates that the US out of all countries seems to be doing pretty well when it comes to recent inflation rates and economic downturns and being the disarmed, bootlicking barbarian that he is, he would love to take our happiness, wealth and success away. But waaaah 🙁 he can't and will continue to see our banner shine and seethe and rage impotently from the cage he calls home.
Then it wouldn’t actually “help” anyone.
"UBI is for anyone who wants it."
Poor Bandybuck. He just can't figure out what the word "Universal" means.
Poor education I suspect.
That's why you want UBI checks.
"That's why you want UBI checks." Smack Stupid
Now you are simply resorting to lying.
I have never met a Neo-Liberal who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
You are no exception to that rule.
SO now I'm a liar for pointing out your fervent support for free money from the government.
Once we have an AI-based labor force where machines can do their own repairs and assembly, then yes, we might be ready for UBI. A factory could then be run by tons of robots and between 0 and 3 humans or something like that.
Before that, UBI is just gonna do what the video says: Incentivize people to stay home and not work.
It will also cause people to stay home when we have a robot labor force of course. But we would likely be able to stem that. I think UBI is way ahead of it's time. Scarcity is still a thing at the moment.
"It will also cause people to stay home when we have a robot labor force of course."
Manufacturing employment keeps dropping while output has never been higher.
All that means is that people are freed to do something else. Which is a good thing.
"All that means is that people are freed to do something else. Which is a good thing."
I never said anything to the contrary. Now you are even aggressively missing the point, sarcasmic.
You make it seem like there won't be anything for them to do. Am I wrong?
Largely correct. Nothing to do for money. Or not a whole lot. That is perfectly conceivable. At that point they might do art. They could try and sell that. Art doesn't seem to require a high IQ. But getting sales with art does.
Yes, I'm saying that it's likely that many people will have massive trouble finding jobs. But we will be productive enough to do UBI at that point.
I dunno. You seem to be ignoring scarcity. There will never be enough of anything for everyone who wants it. If you believe we can science ourselves out of it then you're entitle to think that. I simply disagree. That's all.
I see. Well, scarcity will still exist. I never said that. I said that if our biology doesn't change drastically, a certain fraction of the intelligence distribution will sooner or later not find a job. Maybe they will offer services like "human hugging" or services that ladies in many European countries are allowed to offer, and some in Nevada. 🙂
But I anticipate menial tasks to be gone or massively reduce. Everything that will still be limited by scarcity will require higher IQs to produce. That won't go away, I'm sure. But what are we going to do with a third of the population then?
I see your point, but I simply disagree. I believe there will always be more menial tasks than machines to do them for us.
"I believe there will always be more menial tasks than machines to do them for us."
Maybe. I don't know. I have reason to believe that it will get less and at one point not be enough anymore. But I gotta go too now.
freed to do something else
Apparently it frees them to covet your stuff.
Human desires are limitless. That's why things are done by people before they're automated, and I doubt that's going to change.
True AI is science fiction. Like warp drive, time travel and teleporting. Just isn't going to happen.
Then there's scarcity. We're never going to have a scarcity-free society like Star Trek.
Nah, I completely disagree. There will always be things for people to do.
There will always be things for some people to do for money. But automation to the point that about 30% of our population won't be able to find any job at one point is perfectly imaginable. Some jobs that require IQs of 90 or 100 are already about to be replaced. Like call center agents. So you don't necessarily disagree with what I am saying. Instead you seem to have missed the point here.
I'm not missing your point. I'm simply disagreeing with it. I believe there will always be menial tasks and people to do them.
And that, I doubt. You will have high income jobs that will specialize on specific behavioral implementations to cover all such menial tasks after we have agents that can interact with the physical world about as well as humans can. And that is not so sci-fi in 2021.
To be more concrete, there will be a job market for behavior coding/training of physically capable, AI-based agents. And this market will cover all menial tasks. Because implementations will be found.
Especially in the service sector. There's always new services that people can imagine, and would like to have done by people.
That and scarcity is real. AI won't make it go away.
What services? Haircuts? Painting your house? Bartending? Babysitting? Security guard? I don't see a reason for AI agents not to outcompete humans on any of those. Especially if the machines can do it for a fraction of the cost. How will humans that depend on physical labor to make a living be able to compete?
What services?
Services that we haven't imagined yet.
Many services that people did are now automated.
How many services do we have now done by people that were literally science fiction mere decades ago? Lots, right?
So why can't people in the future dream up new services for people to provide once what we have now is automated?
There's always a lag between things being done by people before being done by machines. So there will always be employment.
At least that's my two cents. I can't explain it any more and my fingers are tired.
"How many services do we have now done by people that were literally science fiction mere decades ago? Lots, right?"
The problem is that these services were science fiction, but conceivable. You are currently unable to name a single such future service even in the form of science fiction. Yet you want to sell me the idea that there will be enough of these mysterious, unnamable, human-domain-only services to keep an entire low-skilled industry running that relies on mechanical labor. That makes no sense.
You are currently unable to name a single such future service even in the form of science fiction.
So? Doesn't mean people who are smarter and more creative than myself can't.
Yet you want to sell me the idea that there will be enough of these mysterious, unnamable, human-domain-only services to keep an entire low-skilled industry running that relies on mechanical labor. That makes no sense.
You want to sell me on the idea that society will be so wealthy that everyone has unlimited slave labor in the form of AI machines. These machines will satisfy our every need and want to the point where human beings just aren't necessary anymore.
The only way that makes sense is to ignore scarcity. I'm not going to do that. If that's a personal failing, them maybe so.
Actually the idea i have tried to communicate was disjoint from any Star Trek post scarcity utopia. I said that in order to rattle the job market, no technology nearly that advanced would be required. We will see.
You're basically saying that because I can't predict the winner of Shark Tank 2121, that my argument is wrong.
It has ceased to be about ideas, and is now personal again.
Why can't we just agree to disagree? I've tried to do that several times, but now the word "you" keeps popping up. I thought the discussion was about automation, not me.
You yes we can you agree you to you disagree you.
Sorry about thatyou
"There's always a lag between things being done by people before being done by machines. So there will always be employment."
The lag has a duration. This duration will decrease. Your statement only makes sense if seen in a low resolution for of "yes lag/no lag". If the lag is sufficiently shortened, job markets will be terminally disrupted.
So in your view, human production goes to the machines, and humanity is left to act as service slaves with those who own the machinery.
"There's always new services that people can imagine"
Stupid strawman alert.
Time travel and teleporting won't happen.
Warp drive might, someday.
True AI will definitely happen, within the next century.
I too find that likely. And if it happens, it might be too late to react appropriately if people continue to deny it because it raises their comfort levels and preserves their world view.
It will be a bad day for humanity when the robots decide they also want to sit at home and be lethargic.
That's a problem. Hopefully they decide that after they invented their own AI-driven labor force.
I think that AGI could be something we want to avoid if we can get there. I don't think you need AGI to replace factory workers. You don't even need AGI to build self-running and self-repairing labor force factories.
Per your point above, only for the robots and humans that take and then refuse to contribute at any/all levels.
AIs, unless they somehow also subscribe to brain-dead leftism, aren't going to automate each and every last toaster and refrigerator even for people who don't want to work and explicitly refuse their help. AIs powerful enough and willing to do so aren't just going to stop doing so for people who m they perceive as valuable or at least redeemable. The only people in peril are the ones who are both completely dependent and completely worthless or even costly. Same as in Adam Smith's day and well before.
A human equivalent AI doesn't necessarily have a reason to concern itself with what we find right or wrong. That's called the alignment problem. It is also a huge problem to formulate goals for an AI in a way such that it doesn't engage in things like reward hacking, where formally conditions are met, but it doesn't do what we want it to do to reach said conditions.
This is an exceedingly unlibertarian view of "human equivalent AIs" and, given your assumptions/assertions, I'd say the term is being misapplied. An AI created to do one job and nothing else isn't a human equivalent, it's a slave. Moreover, if the slave is reward hacking, I don't much care, as long as the cotton gets picked. If it is human equivalent, then the notion that it didn't pick the cotton the right way suggests the fault is (just as likely to be) with my values and communication, not its/theirs.
I didn't assume this general intelligence to have an actual mind, that's why I sounded inhumane. I will address that down below.
So, reward hacking really means that they don't pick the cotton but just take unintended actions to optimize the output of their reward function. It means they formally or by the numbers achieve the goal, but they don't actually do what was intended. How this can be applied to the task of cotton picking, not sure at the moment.
But I wouldn't call such an agent a slave. Otherwise your car is a slave. With regards to
"If it is human equivalent"
Just in terms of intelligent output, not in terms of possessing a mind. But an AI like that really has no inherent interest in cooperating with us, unless we find a really good solution for the alignment problem. In fact, outsmarting us and doing things to gain power over us may be much more logical for it, as this would eliminate uncertainty with regards to reaching the goal. Self-preservation is another behavior that may naturally emerge from the objective to reach the goal ("If I don't exist, I can't reach the goal, therefore self-preservation is logical. These humans are a source of uncertainty in my self-preservation. Therefore, it might be a good idea to get rid of them once I am stable and powerful enough.")
I don't know if it will have an actual mind. That is one of the big questions. One of the reasons why it may be better to stop short of creating something that has a general level of intelligence. It's possible that we can't know.
Additionally, the idea of some sort of singular, global AI seems to be nonsense a la swimming submarines. No more reasonable than a singular human intelligence. I can't fathom that such transcendental intelligence would hinge its own and all of humanity's existence on the the potential failure to carry the 1.
I will say, I find the notion of a malicious God as *the* key to meeting or circumventing economics and the laws of thermodynamics thought provoking. Very Faustian.
I've actually read Goethe's Faust. Grew up with it. But sci-fi, beating nature scenaria (in Fausts case it was more about magic than sci-fi) aren't a concern for me at the moment, see below.
I'm more concerned about the problems that can arise from sufficiently developed, weak AI, not a general one, as this might be impossible to implement, and I said before that it might be something we don't want to do even if we get to the point where we can.
Cutting through a lot of the bullshit; your position only makes sense if you assume all intelligence to be inherently bad or evil and even that doesn't inherently distinguish human vs. non-human intelligence.
I'm not dubious of your position because of its inhumanity, I'm dubious because of its anthropocentric inconsitency. The problem with an all-powerful general AI is the power, not the intelligence. The same as with humans. The idea of should/shouldn't we develop a general collective artificial consciousness or intelligence is as dumb as questioning if we should/shouldn't develop a general collective human intelligence. Regardless of your answer, it's going to happen either way. The idea that we should oppose it before it has taken any action one way or the other is not pragmatic, libertarian, or utilitarian and goes against some fundamental principles of thermodynamics (state functions), ZKPs, economics, compartmentalization/encapsulation, etc., etc.
You dont seem to be familiar with most of the research in the field which is obvious from the fact that your response is mostly a non sequitur to the things Im talking about.
"your position only makes sense if you assume all intelligence to be inherently bad or evil"
Incorrect. Intelligence and morals are disjoint. Morals do not emerge from intelligence. What I am saying is based on this premise. All it takes is a morally neutral agent with goals that arent aligned with ours. I repeat, morals do not emerge from intelligence.
"The problem with an all-powerful general AI is the power, not the intelligence."
It will get powerful because of its intelligence. An AGI will outsmart us. It may happen in the deployment phase. If you only gave an AGI access to an internet browser, it would have all it needs to cause serious problems if that would make sense with regards to its goals. You may research the alignment problem.
"The idea that we should oppose it before it has taken any action one way or the other is not pragmatic, libertarian, or utilitarian and goes against some fundamental principles"
You are not familiar with the research and the problems in the field at all. How trying to solve the alignment problem before creating AGI goes against the principles of thermodynamics is something you need to clarify. How refusing to build it in case we can't solve the problem goes against these principles is another thing you need to explain. A world in which we could accidentally deploy an AGI or do so under the RADAR is a world where we already have AGI. But now this turns into a non sequiturs parade.
If you think it would have a mind, refusing to make it happen is like not having a child if you think you cant take care of it. That would be called responsible.
What is better Chumby? Sitting at home and enjoying one's self or being forced to pointlessly dig holes and fill them up again, as the current economy demands?
How about pointlessly digging holes and filling them up again while some lazy asshole sits at home "enjoying one's self" (your words not mine).
"Once we have an AI-based labor force where machines can do their own repairs and assembly, then yes, we might be ready for UBI."
And when machines only do 50% of the work. What then?
How about when the do 80%?
You do have a plan don't you?
Nope... Didn't think so.
What kind of dipshit are you if I may ask? A socialist?
You don't seem capable of answering the questions.
"What kind of dipshit are you?" - 5.56
You must be a low IQ Libertarian.
You don't seem capable of asking any intelligent questions. Either that or you ask questions that are only designed to set up a straw man for you to knock down. Then you want to attack someone's intelligence because you lack any real understanding of how the labor market works. All this effort to protect the idea of free money for nothing makes me think that you are probably some useless turd sitting in front of a computer with cheeto stains all over your tighty whities
Also, VendRetard, if you had read my other comments: I discuss problems with this level of automation long before highly developed robots like that.
You don't seem capable of answering the questions.
And that is your second shot and your second failure.
"Also, VendRetard, " - 5.56
Yup. You are a low IQ Libertarian.
Try again. Fail the third time.
Fail at understanding . Just take a nap retard.
"Incentivize people to stay home and not work." - IQ = 5.56
Most jobs in Capitalist economies are worthless jobs that have no purpose other than pushing paper or producing and selling products that are designed to fail prematurely.
Those jobs are the equivalent to digging holes and filling them up again.
Better for these people to stay at home where they will be happier.
Is Chinese crap better? they are the largest nation that practices the most pure form of socialism on earth.
I will never, ever again use "UBI" (or it's variants) -- the "term" has become utterly meaningless.
Let's just replace the ENTIRE WELFARE SYSTEM, including housing, food stamps, and all the rest (some one hundred separate government programs, with a Reverse-Income Tax (RIT), and save the taxpayers about $500 Billion dollars a year.
" and save the taxpayers about $500 Billion dollars a year."
What do you intend to do with the unemployed created by not spending that $500 billion employing them?
Just curious.
We can do with out those government jobs, because that is the only kind of job government creates.
What do you intend to do with the unemployed created by not spending that $500 billion employing them?
Just curious.
There are plenty of jobs out there now, last number I heard was about 10,000,000. or is that all propaganda too. By the why 500 billion is only the hiring, year after year that total will be the equivalent 500 billion x the number of years of employment.
"What do you intend to do with the unemployed created by not spending that $500 billion employing them?"
Good question: first of all, it would take many years to get rid of ALL the programs . What would happen to them? The same thing that happened to the hundred thousand people who were once "telephone operators," those who worked by the tens of thousands of people at automobile assembly lines, or, once upon a time, the seventy+ percent of the population who used to grow our food, etc, etc.
A whole bunch of things -- many of which we probably can't even imagine. It has always been this way.
"The same thing that happened to the hundred thousand people who were once "telephone operators," those who worked by the tens of thousands of people at automobile assembly lines, or, once upon a time, the seventy+ percent of the population who used to grow our food, etc,"
You mean they would end up in soup kitchens and in bread lines as they did during the great depression.
Thanks for your explanation.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
The key feature mentioned by some above is that UBI can’t pay MORE than most jobs.
"The key feature mentioned by some above is that UBI can’t pay MORE than most jobs."
Ideally, the cut-off point for a Reverse Income Tax (RIT), according to Friedman would be somewhere BELOW the minimum wage.
Admittedly, he was using it in context, but even Friedman's UBI has government intervention and/or a minimum wage as a prerequisite. Makes it pretty oxymoronic as a self-standing, abstract theoretical concept.
Some jobs in the U.S. pay nothing. Workers work for tips only.
Interesting isn't it.
Ok, sp you ARE a butthurt lefty, are you?
Some jobs in the U.S. pay nothing. Workers work for tips only.
Interesting isn't it.
Wrong again. Tip workers do receive an hourly wage as well, it is just below minimum wage. I'm beginning to believe that you don't work in the private sector at all.
Some jobs in the U.S. pay nothing. Workers work for tips only.
Interesting isn't it.
Repeating your idiotic statement doesn't make it true, I know your daddy Stalin told you that, but that was a lie too.
UBI can absolutely work and not as mere welfare.
If any currency is blockchain based, there is no reason whatsoever that that currency cannot be distributed broadly/universally if that is also the means by which blocks are verified. And since that sort of currency could also verify voter identity, land title, and other things where govt bureaucrats are currently the intermediary. Citizens can intermediate part of that - and they can do so even if they are two years old.
We are just completely stuck in the notion that 'money' should only be distributed through Wall St and banks as the intermediary. Again citizens can be the intermediary.
Likewise - though the current blockchains are all built on the notion that the original owners of them should intermediate things and become rich in the process - that is not necessarily true either.
Sitting at home and mailing in a vote every two years has no value. And therefore should not be compensated. Sure, it can result in more mandatory broken windows but does not add value. You are not responsible for me and should never be required to pay for me.
It does if the voters are the ones who authenticate the chain of blocks that has eg the correct voter registration info and/or anything else that the county clerk needs to publicly certify.
Other than possibly making local government slightly more efficient, which should just then reduce property taxes, it doesn't add value. Certainly nothing to justify paying people to do nothing.
So you're against Social Security, yes? Those old people should stop gardening and get back to work!
Shitstain fancies that he has some understanding of economics. He doesn't; he's a blithering idiot and a slimy parasite besides.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
So the blockchain is going to prevent the public from voting themselves an ever higher subsidy or get layabouts motivated to work?
Ok.
Sure, government distribution of funds is a problem in todays system but the much bigger problem is paying people to be non-productive in any system yet conceived.
Either you pay people such a small amount that it doesn't do what it's created to do, or it's set high enough to wreck the economy. Pick one.
If the money supply outruns productivity gains, you WILL have inflation.
So paying people to be non-productive WILL cause inflation.
Don't need to pick from those two because this is not about paying people to be non-productive. This isn't welfare.
There is a value that is currently paid by citizens (in the form of taxes or debt) to intermediaries (bureaucrats, contractors, cronies, pols) to perform stuff that could be disintermediated via a blockchain. Upon disintermediation, that could easily be a decentralized and flat creation and distribution of value.
"Don't need to pick from those two because this is not about paying people to be non-productive. This isn't welfare..."
You.
Are.
Still.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
"If any currency is blockchain based"
What about if banana futures were blockchain based?
What if your children were blockchain based?
And a looney as well, huh? 😀
Poor 5.56. He has an IQ of 5.56
Blockchain has no applicability here, ore anywhere actually.
Only fools try to apply it to anything meaningful.
Poor VendicarDousche, thinks they are intelligent, but is actually a blithering idiot. I suspect a product of public education, ya know 2+2 =5.
Smack Daddy = Crack Daddy
That's the best you can do? whoo don't know if I'll ever recover from that one.
Blockchain has no applicability here, ore anywhere actually.
Manipulating voter registration lists/identity within partisan politics is nothing but forcing that information to be subject to the whims of an intermediary who is not trusted by half the population.
Blockchain allows that to be moved beyond politics - where citizens themselves become the intermediary - validated whenever they use the currency. That is exactly what deserves a flat payment - a UBI - to citizens.
First point: Ayn Rand was correct when she said that we need separation of Economy and State just as we already have separation of Church and State. Second point: I recommend that you all read Kurt Vonnegut's first novel, "Player Piano". Third point: Andrew Yang is an intelligent idiot.
The state exists to manage the economy.
Without regulation, the economy will collapse into lawlessness because it will be lawless.
Oh, I see. Defeated person over here.
5.56
Government regulation grew out of a need to regulate capitalism.
Your ideology is a straight path back to feudalism.
Regulation grew out of the want to regulate capitalism. I believe the actual quote was ' to keep a boot on the throat of capitalism.'
" keep a boot on the throat of capitalism.'
Ya... That sounds proper.
You would think that. At this point it has become painfully obvious that you have a deep seated hatred for America and capitalism, but what you fail to realize is that even in the most socialistic of countries capitalism still exists. Only the elite are aloud to engage in it, making them the very same thing that you purport to hate about capitalist America.
My sincere and heartfelt congratulations to the Goth Fonzie Wop on acknowledging what has already become pretty obvious to everyone with a clue and a brain: this idea that we can increase or even maintain our standard of living forever with both an endlessly increasing population AND a shrinking labor force is a pure nonsensical fantasy. It just can't work forever, eventually you run up against some hard real-world short term limits to efficiency and innovation. And that's where we are now: the productivity simply is no longer enough to meet the demand. I'm guessing that the Woppo could no longer ignore this reality when the four different varieties of eggplant that he was accustomed to always seeing on his grocer's shelf suddenly weren't there any longer one day in the recent past.
Of course, he conveniently neglects to mention that he himself was pushing this nonsense right here within the last couple of years, and many of us could (and did) predict exactly what the most likely outcome would be! But this is about as close as tghe fugazis of Reason ever get to admitting that they were wrong about something. And it's comical how often they're wrong, it happens with remarkable frequency. It's just the latest version the "Arab Spring", the "Obama Libertarian Moment", and I could go on and on and on.
Your comments are of course nothing smugness generated from ignorance.
The only question is how UBI can be funded.
I have no adequate answer within the existing failing capitalist system.
Perhaps you will have to think out of the box. I feel that will be impossible for you.
You seem like the kind of character who even has trouble thinking inside the box, VendRetard.
Poor IQ = 5.56.
He is so angry that everyone around him is smarter than he is.
He never answers questions because he doesn't understand them.
You are the smug moron here. Socialists always think they are smarter than everyone else, but every time they take over it always ends in murder, slavery, and starvation. I wouldn,t expect a woke joke like you to understand because you lack the capacity.
Socialism rules the world little boy, and your Capitalist joke of a nation is dying right before your eyes.
England also adopted American style Neoliberal Capitalist poison, and it is on it's death bead as well
The world is laughing at you.
No we are all laughing at this little child who thinks he has an understanding of how the world works, when in fact the very system he so cherishes has a 200 year record of failure and is responsible for the death of over 100 million people. We also laugh at your audacity to claim to speak for the whole world? These kinds of statements are just sophomoric attempts to win an argument without facts or understanding. And this little boy is more than you can handle.
I think reason recruited this troll to get the traffic and ad revenue going. He is a meaningless, defeated artifact and really cranky his party is losing big time right now.
Covid answers all questions.
UBI - Dead With COVID Or From COVID?
In the not-too-distant future, we're going to be dealt a crippling blow as a result of the relatively recent splurge in fighting poverty. A big chunk of the under 20 crowd grew up with worthless leaches for parents and are now following in their footsteps. Much like the war on poverty blighted our inner cities, it has spread nationwide in a way that may be crippling in the next 10 years. I did a career day at the local high school the other day, and somewhere between 25-50% of those kids will likely never be productive members of society. At the same time politicians are buying more votes with free shit, teachers unions are dumbing down standards in the name of equity. Labor participation is terrible now, and it will get worse as the near-term retirees aren't replaced because it is too comfortable to be worthless and crank out kids.
Literally every generation says that.
A logger interested in harvesting my land put it this way:
“Chumby. Remember when we were in school? There was usually just a few poor families. They usually had several kids. But it wasn’t that many. Now those kids are all grown up and each having multiple kids themselves.”
Will go out on a limb and say his explanation did not leave me stumped.
No judgements, but feel free to keep the discussions about strangers showing up at your house, 'harvesting land', and giving/taking wood to yourself.
Not to branch off on a tangent, but it wasn't me he wanted. It was my beech.
Yew should nip that in the bud, a good Birching keeps them off the Beeches, or your house-Cedar.
You’d think that I would pine to do that. But have been too busy trying to spruce up the place.
Yes, it is very obvious that American culture has failed. Every generation since the 1950's has been intellectually inferior to the previous ones.
It's too the point now that Americans are so stupid that they can't even elect effective leadership.
In such an environment, Democracies can't function, and countries collapse into rubble.
You were warned over the decades.
America is now driven by Faith, Conspiracy, and Denial rather than Scientific Fact.
Have you noticed that every major Neo-Liberal policy has been an abject failure?
No? LOL. Keep the faith baby....
Sober up, VendRetard. The world will look better after the hangover. I promise.
Yes, it is very obvious that American culture has failed. Every generation since the 1950's has been intellectually inferior to the previous ones.
It's too the point now that Americans are so stupid that they can't even elect effective leadership.
In such an environment, Democracies can't function, and countries collapse into rubble.
You were warned over the decades.
America is now driven by Faith, Conspiracy, and Denial rather than Scientific Fact.
Have you noticed that every major Neo-Liberal policy has been an abject failure?
No? LOL. Keep the faith baby....
It is the poison of socialism that has failed. Crony capitalism is born from socialism, you know the whole we pick the winners thing. As far as education goes, it is the socialists that have destroyed that as well, choosing to teach indoctrination over education, but as always you commies never except the responsibility for what has been done. Socialism is the rot in America.
What is the current inflation rate John Boy and how much is the U.S. debt falling in real terms due to that inflation?
Due to social programs right? Thank you for proving my point.
LMAO this complete idiot defends socialism while making a point of the current inflation rate... 😀
I remember Mark Zuckerberg saying that UBI would allow people to get more education or start a business.
A lot of people are satisfied with the amount of education they have and don't want to run a business.
Then, there are some of my teenage son's friends who just want to live in their parents' basements and play video games, instead of going to college, looking for a job, and finding a girl.
UBI just encourages that.
Rush Limbaugh once said that a person has an obligation to be a useful member of society. That doesn't mean getting a job. You could be a stay-at-home parent, volunteering at one or more charities, or taking care of an elderly relative.
But, you have to not sit in a basement, playing video games, smoking, drinking, and watching porn.
No UBI, far fewer societal drop-outs.
But, you have to not sit in a basement, playing video games, smoking, drinking, and watching porn.
You can do those things, but those things exist through other's efforts and, as such, cost money. If you can completely cover those costs without working, good on you; if you can cover the costs with your parents' money, the issue is between you and them, if you can't cover those costs, your consumption of those resources *should* only be able go on as long as you can cover them.
So obviously we should tax away the excess wealth of the wealthy and all of the money they'd prefer to leave to their children.
We wouldn't want anyone spending money in a way you disapprove of. What do we think this country is, free?
Shitstain fancies that he has some understanding of economics. He doesn't; he's a blithering idiot and a slimy parasite besides.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
Oh, America is the most enslaved nation on Earth. 3 million in prison, and most Americans so fearful of their neighbours that they hide in their houses, in their gated communities, with those guns they need to protect themselves from other "free" American citizens.
Americans are free to die in the gutter if they can't afford health care.
That is American freedom... LOL.
China is the most enslaved nation on earth, Please keep up with current events.
"Then, there are some of my teenage son's friends who just want to live in their parents' basements and play video games, instead of going to college, looking for a job, and finding a girl."
But video games are big business. What will you do with the millions of people who are fired when these game companies go out of business due to people not buying them?
As to college... They have done the math and have decided to not indebt themselves with loans that will take them a lifetime to pay off.
Besides.. What business is it of yours what these free men and women do.
You are all about freedom, aren't you?
"As to college... They have done the math and have decided to not indebt themselves with loans that will take them a lifetime to pay off."
LMAO not everyone has a loser degree like you. Hint: Finding the right degree involves... "doing the math". Haha 😀
"Loser degree" - IQ 5.56
Odd how Libertarian retards openly hate education.
Said the basement dweller. You got a little defensive when you life style was threatened.
"Said the basement dweller." - Smack Stupid
You are lying again I see.
I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Never. Lying is a way of life for you.
I'm not a libertarian asswipe. But you are an asswipe.
Your pathetic gender studies degree isn't education though lol
Your whining about not getting a job for doing nothing is starting to get delicious I have to say. 🙂
It becomes our business when we start paying for people to stay home and play video games.
I would hope that Reason would privilege evidence-based claims over folk wisdom. Claiming COVID "proves" UBI won't work is lazy sensemaking.
With the added variables of threatening disease in the workplace and additional cash benefits tied to unemployment, I don't think we can conclude much of anything (for or against) on how UBI affects unemployment/desire of individuals to work. The only facts we seem to have on the program outcomes are the cost of the program and the corresponding amount of income recipients received.
The only way to "prove" wither UBI works or not is through a randomized control trial, preferably a variety of different approaches in a variety of different locales. And wouldn't you know... there are many trials going on all over the world - including the United States. Now that we're finally running real experiments, let's see what the results are before we start making claims.
Reserve the word "proven" when we have sufficiently tested the hypothesis. Reason should be eagerly following the results of these trials and be willing to admit if the data proves their folk wisdom wrong. I would hope that Reason would celebrate this scientific approach to policy analysis.
That said, all of the other arguments in the video are completely valid and should be debated. Even if these trials find that UBI "works" we still have to have the debate about the cost to our society.
Reason exists to produce pro-corporate, pro-fascist propaganda.
Your hope will go unrealized.
"I would hope that Reason would privilege evidence-based claims over folk wisdom. Claiming COVID "proves" UBI won't work is lazy sensemaking."
And there is no reason for your existence, get mom to cook you some more pop tarts.
Reason exists to produce pro-corporate, pro-fascist propaganda.
Your hope will go unrealized.
"I would hope that Reason would privilege evidence-based claims over folk wisdom. Claiming COVID "proves" UBI won't work is lazy sensemaking."
Again making up statements and saying them twice doesn't make them true. As you are so fond of saying, you are lying again.
He must be associated with reason. I would probably troll my commenters if I saw that it makes me some money.
Eventually we'll run out of other people's money. Or, probably sooner, our outstanding bills come due.
So, fuck handouts. Bring back Works programs at the least and train people while making more parks and infrastructure.
So you believe the economy is a zero sum game?
"Eventually we'll run out of other people's money" - Salted Nut
I thought you Libertarian's insisted that wasn't the case?
Missed the mark again. You are doing nothing more than trying to put words in other peoples mouths. And where is it written in your imaginary codex of libertarian thought that we could just spend everyone else's money and it would never run out.
So you believe the economy is a zero sum game?
"Eventually we'll run out of other people's money" - Salted Nut
I thought you Libertarian's insisted that wasn't the case?
Fuck off and die, asshole.
So I take it that a lack of real response means that you can't address the lie you just told.
That's it. The middle class is too loaded. Gotta make'em hungry. We need take this to the next level though and confiscate all inheritances. Getting money for nothing makes you weak. We could pay off all the piled up free loading by doing that.
If you’re looking for someone who thinks inheriting wealth is unjustified, and has no problem confiscating it all, turn your head to the left.
It's only unjustified according to a moral premise that getting money for free indicates bad character and should be discouraged.
If you're pro-inheritance and anti-welfare, you're not articulating a moral premise, you're just being an asshole.
Shitstain fancies that he has some understanding of economics. He doesn't; he's a blithering idiot.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
Getting money for free isn’t evil.
Taking money from others to fund your own charity work is evil
"Taking money from others to fund your own charity work is evil" - Brian
Others consider it a social responsibility.
Your concept of "evil" is only shared with psychopaths, and the truly ignorant.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
So by this logic we can kick you out of your house and give it to someone else while you still pay for it?
I should be ashamed of myself for not letting you guilt trip me into your self-centered version of my social responsibilities, shouldn’t I?
Ah, so one's willingness to work or be lazy is totally absent from your ethical framing. Good to know. I expect you'll never bring it up again.
You're simply an armchair anarchist who as such is not worth listening to, because that's silly.
Stealing money from a dead person is absolutely “money for nothing.” Then giving it to freeloaders?!?! Extended version of Money for Nothing.
“I want my EBT.”
It is impossible to steal anything from a dead person.
"Stealing money from a dead person "
They are dead and have no right to ownership.
No, you will just be stealing from their family that do have a right to ownership.
Pathetic lefty parasite heard from.
Fuck off and die, shitlord.
SEVO is very angry that he is a Capitalist loser.
He knows, that if he performs felatio on the right person he can make it as a self made man.
LOL!
Vandicampsdousche Is angry that he can't sit at home and leach off of the rest of society and can't even get someone to perform felatio on his withered nethers .
LOL. HAHAHAHAHAHA Dumbass.
"he can't sit at home and leach off of the rest of society" - Smack Stupid.
You are lying yet again I see.
I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Smack Daddy could be a poster child for the sick movement.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Then explain why you defend it so vigorously.
Yes. Unproductive upper level management is unproductive and weak.
"Getting money for nothing makes you weak."
Are you so drunk now that you can't see whether you place the quote below the response or above it?
IQ 5.56 thinks upper level management produce.
LOL
Tell that to the shop floor workers, and you will be laughed out of the building.
You wouldn't know, now would you.
"You wouldn't know, now would you." - Smack Stupid.
Anyone who has worked a few years knows that second level management and above are clueless.
They mandate some change. It fails. Then the proclaim success pat themselves on the back and move on to screwing up something else.
The people who do the work know how to do the work. Second level Management exists only to get in the way.
Looks like Vendishit is the newest slimy troll.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
There are managers who don't know what they are doing, but some has to know what to do to keep the business going, and that is not the ground worker. Does the line worker at the automotive plant order the parts for the company? Does the bus boy or waitress manage the truck orders or keep the proper paperwork such as labor costs verses gross income so that the business will stay afloat? No they don't, making you a complete fool with a chip on your shoulder because you can't hack it in the real world. And you can call me a liar all you want, it is your own words that betray you.
So you're not manager material I take it.
Floor workers appreciate good management if they know whats good for them. Leading people effectively is something that socialistic misfits like you have failed at historically.
"...But automation does reduce *unskilled* jobs..."
Easy to disprove: We have more "unskilled" jobs available now than ever, even with the massive automation we currently have.
Malthus was wrong and so was Ned Ludd.
"Malthus was wrong" - Sevo
Said the dying cockroach living in it's own feces.
Look the basement dweller called someone else a cockroach, that's rich.
Universal Basic Theft?
I'll give $100 for $100...
Humorously; Everyone knows that's not how it'll go down in reality.
Charge the People $50,000 taxes, UBI Check $5,000 - Useless politically connected bookies $45,000.
What kind of propaganda B.S. does it take to convince 50% of the population that resources can fall from the sky if only enough 'fiat' money is printed???
It's only "theft" if the economy is a zero sum game.
"Universal Basic Theft?" - Tjj
Is that your argument, my little angry boy?
Why would he be angry? UBI is as meaningless right now as the main proponent Yang, who has left his party and is less important than big L libertarians now.
Are you often out at night, projecting your anger on others? 😀
"Why would he be angry." - IQ 5.56
Because, like you, he is a Economic Loser who lives in a country that is collapsing while the world looks on and laughs.
That's why.
He was talking to you. You just showed how unintelligent you really are, you can't even comprehend what is being said to you.
"You wouldn't know, now would you." - Smack Stupid.
Anyone who has worked a few years knows that second level management and above are clueless.
They mandate some change. It fails. Then the proclaim success pat themselves on the back and move on to screwing up something else.
The people who do the work know how to do the work. Second level Management exists only to get in the way.
Fuck off and die a slow painful death, shit-pile.
It was correct then and is still correct now. And if I am Wrong then why didn't you make a statement that disproved it? I'll save you the trouble, because you can't. I noticed whenever a tough question or statement is put before you, you skip over it and pretend nothing was said. Your statements are all based on socialistic theories, but that is all that they are. Theories are nothing more than a guess, they are still unproven.
"Because, like you, he is a Economic Loser who lives in a country that is collapsing while the world looks on and laughs."
Only so long as Biden's and assorted lefty shits like you are in office.
He is actively working on accelerating their demise and also butthurt about the recent developments. He also sounds like he is from some other, already unfree, defeated and meaningless country and therefore very jealous because we are a free nation.
I have tried to commit myself to a no-schadenfreude attitude when the dems crash and instead reach out to the losers and try to be cooperative. But with excrements like him, I don't think that will be possible.
LMAO Economic losers: are you talking about European shitholes or Australia where the people are so repressed that they take to the streets by the millions to protest the lockdowns (poor fellows, shouldn't have given up their guns... 😉 ) while growth hasn't recovered for them since 2008? 😀
Sorry to break it to you, but I am from the USA, the country that will continue to curb stomp parasitic, defeated, disarmed, envious misfires like you, smile, and not think about you any more 🙂 while continuing to enjoy our unique freedoms against your will.
Sure, sure; All that new produce the people created today has no ownership because the days-end balance sheet has no ties to fundamental math.
And anyone who disputes a math-less economy is an economical loser..... /s
...... Any excuse to STEAL from others; is always the bottom line.
Article title: “Covid proves UBI doesn’t work.”
Neither the accompanying video nor the narrative piece do anything whatsoever to back up the title’s claim and leaves out a major piece of Yang’s design to fund his UBI plan.
Disagreeing is fine, but at least make some attempt to be intellectually honest, Nick.
Reason exists to spread Pro-Corporate, Pro-Fascist propaganda.
Neo-Liberalism is fundamentally dishonest.
" at least make some attempt to be intellectually honest, Nick." - Johnny
I have never met a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Now look who's projecting.
Reason exists to spread Pro-Corporate, Pro-Fascist propaganda.
Neo-Liberalism is fundamentally dishonest.
" at least make some attempt to be intellectually honest, Nick." - Johnny
I have never met a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
You would fit right in.
"Reason exists to spread Pro-Corporate, Pro-Fascist propaganda..."
You exist to show how stupid and dishonest lefty shits are, and you're doing a fine job!
Congratulations!
Now, fuck off and die.
Reason exists to spread Pro-Corporate, Pro-Fascist propaganda.
Neo-Liberalism is fundamentally dishonest.
I have never met a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Again saying it over and over does not make it true.
Except in Sevo's case . You really should just fuck off and die asshole. And on a lighter note , did you realize your initials are V.D.
It has always seemed to fly in the face of rationality that, on the economic conservative/progressive spectrum of various proposed policies, that social spending that calls for checks to individuals has tended to survive longest as one moves from left to right. I guess the reason for this is that the alternative to this when it comes to some sort of welfare state (as opposed to a laissez-faire system with no minimal public spending) is the construction of community services, ideally free to all and with no means testing which often suffers from having imperfections fully visible to all. The effective distribution of tax revenues according to the perceived need of recipients has the political advantage of buying the maximum number of constituents per dollar. It also has the advantage of typically hiding the failures and corruption of such a system, from the gaming of how "need" is counted along with how payments are massively redirected, often to those overseas (often due to an unavoidable principle that affects handouts; the more honest to distribution, the slower). Common improvements (a fully subsidized, "free" city transport system) that are non-means-tested have the political disadvantage of being subject to resentments according to how much or how little use is provided to various groups and are also subject, in time, to a lack of maintenance that exhibits the shortcomings for all to see.
But despite this, history has shown the latter to provide, when done well, the only real socialist success stories. This includes the generations of well-run public schools, libraries, hospitals, highways, and other transport projects that were indispensable in the construction of our world.
Maybe the right prefers writing checks to individuals because they see in it the devolution of government itself, it is effectively the government selling out its sole asset, its claim on tax revenues.
Means-tested programs are always subject to more political football and are always less popular. Social Security and Medicare are not means-tested. They are extremely popular. Welfare and Medicaid and food stamps have always been less popular. (Infrastructure is always popular.)
Poor brown people getting "handouts" has always led to resentments among conservatives and moderates. They are encouraged to inject nonsensical moral calculations that coincide with racial resentment and class snobbery.
Social Security is a handout of dirty cash just like welfare, but it can't be killed because everyone gets it and it's not associated with disfavored groups. Anyone offering a mean-tested program (like Joe Manchin) either thinks of social welfare as charity or hopes the program dies later.
Shitstain fancies that he has some understanding of economics. He doesn't; he's a blithering idiot.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
Soooo..... Tony. UR against SS and Medicare right???
You wouldn't want to be racist or anything. lol...
Oh wait; Only White people can be racist.... Sorry; I forgot to apply the racists supreme law first... my bad. /s
The reason people justify SS is because it is directly tied to paycheck deductions (not completely) but far more than welfare is. But you're absolutely CORRECT to say both are just as much of a Nazi-Law at the federal level as every other Nazi-Law that is Anti-USA. The USA will never be saved from Nazism so long as people keep sucking off of Governments TITS. Sadly; due to the Nazism already created, that is not an option right now but with enough USA patriotism it may become so some day.
The cat's left the barn on this crap, I'm afraid. The pandemic gave people some reflection time. Why, since we only get a brief blink of an existence in an uncaring universe, must we spend most of our waking hours doing labor for some other person's profit?
You vampiric assholes should have acquiesced to a little profit sharing over the last 40 years instead of sucking all the productivity out of workers and giving the gains to the CEOs. Capitalism could have continued indefinitely.
CEOs are just people. They aren't smarter than other people, nor are they more virtuous. Their only distinguishing characteristics are perhaps a degree from a university with good branding and higher-than-average rates of psychopathy. They're just people. They don't work 500 times harder than their workers, just as plantation owners didn't work infinity times harder than their slaves.
Just a little less radicalism from the libertarian right, a few crumbs, some indication that our continued technology-based productivity increases would result in our benefitting too. You did socialism to yourself. Thanks!
Shitstain fancies that he has some understanding of economics. He doesn't; he's a blithering idiot.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
You don’t sound butthurt at all.
The sleeper has awakened.
"You vampiric assholes should have acquiesced to a little profit sharing over the last 40 years instead of sucking all the productivity out of workers and giving the gains to the CEOs. Capitalism could have continued indefinitely." -Tony
Don't try to pretend you are ever fully awake and go back to bed please, VendRetard.
IQ 5.56 Strikes again.
LOL
If his IQ is 5.56 yours must be -1. And yes that was a negative number.
Smack Daddy doesn't answer questions.
He doesn't have the intellectual capacity.
How Neo-Liberal of him.
Fuck off and die a slow painful death, shit-pile.
I've answered plenty of your moronic questions. I have yet to see any evidence of intellect from you thus far. Only the insane ramblings of an whining child who doesn't understand why he can't have access to other peoples money.
Hey VendRetard, what SD and median does that 5.56 measure have?
If the median is about 3.46 and the SD about .52, you may have a shot. But this would be beyond you.
Sarc or stupidity? Guessing the later.
LMAO Socialism is winning because of covid? 😀 I think your psychosis is winning because of covid. Oh well, THIS one will age really well, very soon. Saving the link.
"LMAO Socialism is winning because of covid?" - IQ 5.56
No. Socialism is winning because American Capitalism has failed.
The world is looking on and laughing.
They are laughing at you.
"They are laughing at you" - Smack Stupid.
You leaned that debating tactic on the school playground in grade 1, didn't you?
How Classically Liberal of you.
Fuck off and die a slow painful death, shit-pile.
The way VendRetard writes actually reminds me of one of my friends who is not exactly dumb but still a sad, addicted failure in life because he could never get over his own narcissism and reunite with reality.
Seeing your and the democratic parties' continued failure will remain delicious. 🙂
sucking all the productivity out of workers and giving the gains to the CEOs
CEOs are just people. They aren't smarter than other people, nor are they more virtuous.
Sooo................ Why aren't all those workers CEO's Tony!!!
Nobody FORCED them to be workers; they all had free will to come to work or not....
Do you also blame CEO's when YOU stub your own toe?? Do you also blame a lottery winner every-time YOU didn't win even though you didn't even purchase a ticket????
........ Any excuse to STEAL; is always the bottom line.
Difference being...
Lefties; Who are sucking all the productivity out of workers and CEO's... Because the only CHOICE there is to PAY the leftards or get met with Gov-Guns and enslavement or death threats.
Gov-Gun-Force =/= Wealth. It is armed theft.
"Sooo................ Why aren't all those workers CEO's Tony!!!"
Because many people prefer to live honest lives that don't revolve around finding new ways to provide the worst possible products and sell them at the highest possible prices.
Mentally Ill Money Grubbers do that.
Fuck off and die, shit-pile.
Yeah that's where I leaned it. I'll go back and get it later. Assuming it's still leaning where i last put it.
Meant for your previous idiotic statement.
Stated facts not in evidence ---
"Because many people prefer to live honest lives that don't revolve around finding new ways to provide the worst possible products and sell them at the highest possible prices."
And YOU aren't providing better products for a cheaper price............. BECAUSE???
Saying COVID proves people are lazy because they won't take the shitty minimum wage or below minimum wage (restaurant tip-work) jobs at a time when there are still fears of COVID/Delta variant is intellectual laziness itself. People got a break from the shit-jobs and had time to think about why they were making themselves miserable all day. When the economy came back they decided to wait a bit in order to look around and find some better opportunities. Many of them also (mostly women) couldn't go back to work because childcare wasn't available. Childcare workers getting paid minimum wage decided to take other work or also wait around to see if more lucrative openings would appear.
The states that ended unemployment benefits early didn't get people hitting the streets right away.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/states-that-cut-unemployment-benefits-saw-limited-impact-on-job-growth-11630488601
I think UBI is ahead of it's time. It may be needed eventually in 100-200 years when automation really kicks in. However, any social welfare program that goes to everyone, like Medicare is always more popular. A large number of people always think their taxes go to the undeserving unless they are the ones receiving the benefits. ("Take the government out of my Medicare"!)
Lester224
October.28.2021 at 11:31 pm
"Saying COVID proves people are lazy because they won't take the shitty minimum wage or below minimum wage (restaurant tip-work) jobs at a time when there are still fears of COVID/Delta variant is intellectual laziness itself..."
If steaming piles of lefty shit like you find those jobs (and the market wages for such) unacceptable, perhaps parasites like you should learn a skill you can sell at a wage you like, steaming pile of lefty shit.
Sevo is very angry because he isn't capable of functioning normally in a normal society.
He is mentally diseased like most Neo-Liberals.
Fuck off and die, shit-pile.
Sorry Sevo is Right. You are just too stupid to realize it.
Covid proves nothing about a properly constructed UBI.
Except that people can be easily bribed by politician loan sharks.
"Covid proves nothing about a properly constructed UBI.
Except that people can be easily bribed by politician loan sharks."
Nope. Proves that lefty shits like you can invent all sorts of bullshit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Sevo = Not very bright. = Classic NeoLiberal.
And your smarter than the rest of the world right? You know it all and everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid? Insane people think that way, you should schedule some counseling sessions.
"And your smarter than the rest of the world right? " - Smack Stupid.
Most of the rest of the world.... Yes.
My last recorded IQ was between 165 and 180.
What is yours, Below 50 boy?
Fuck off and die, lefty shit.
So you don't Know your real IQ. Adults don't engage in those childish my IQ is bigger than yours games. Only children do that. I submit that you are more than likely some kid playing around on mommies computer. If my IQ was only 50, I wouldn't be able to write half of the things I have said to your childish comments. Most of what you have written can be compared to a child whining about having to clean their room or "why do I have to do the dishes?". Get used to it, the world is a harsh place, even harsher to those who cannot except reality. You are in for a hard life because there is no such thing as free money.
And I call bullshit on your IQ, as is said you clearly don't know what yours is.
He absolutely doesn't have an IQ even in the neighborhood of that. Really, at this point the appropriate reaction at the cringeworthy, vanquished, narcissistic stinker is just laughing 😀
People who are low enough to make such claims on the internet tend to have blue hair and live on 400 sqft. He is really a sad loser and he totally gave it away with that one.
I totally agree, I just like too ridicule them and shove their own stinking crap in their face. Ridicule is so underrated these days, it was how these kinds of imbeciles were kept in their place.
I just wrote a lyric by accident.
"My last recorded IQ was between 165 and 180."
LMAO I love it when the defeated, narcissistic misfits make insane claims and immediately turn themselves into a laughing stock to the amusement of the rest of us 😀
65 to 180, laughing my fucking ass off. Maybe with median 300 and SD 50, little boy. 😉
Hey VendRetard, I hope you stick around so we can continue to laugh at your broken, sore ego while countries everywhere are on a track back to conservativism because of the lefts failure to develop social skills 101 😀
I mean for fucks sake, even in Madrid the right is winning. Marxists like Russell Brand have become highly critical of the media. And what's with independent voters and you know... the thing?
You are trailing very, very far behind and will get crushed.
To be fair, I think he always was critical of them. I am saying that for many people on the left, for what little capacity they have to understand how the world works, they are starting to see their oppressors in places that aren't on the right anymore (unless they are as lost as Tony). This development should concern powerless, iq-whining, infantile shit sniffers like you.
Vendicar = steaming pile of lefty shit.
Fuck off and die.
"Fuck off and die" - Sevo.
Sevo is nothing but hate. That is why he gravitates to the Libertarian ideology, the very ideology that has destroyed his own country.
Sevo = Not very bright. = Classic NeoLiberal.
LOL
fu8ck off and die, asshole
What of your hate? What color was that kettle again?
Want a UBI? Give up your vote. Let's try that.
Unless 2/3rds of Congress and 3/4rds of the States vote to ratify the Constitution any other vote-method on UBI is treasonous against the USA (preformed by an outside over-taking regime).
A National Socialist Regime (acryn; Nazi) that has been taking over the USA for years from the inside out. A regime that violates "The People's" law endlessly with no concern.
Today; That regime in power doesn't even acknowledge any People's law over them 99% of the time. They *pretend* the USA is but a Democratic-Nazi of [WE] mob tyrannical authority (i.e. limitless)..
The USA is a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of States. It's baffling how many USA citizens don't even have the most fundamental basics down on what the USA is and what made it great to begin with.
"Give up your vote." - Earth Septic
You Neo-Liberals really hate the U.S. constitution don't you.
And you don't? Go back to bed child. You are out of your league.
It's not a question of if UBI will come but when and how. While there will always be some sort of jobs out there, they will be less and less as automation takes over. Look back at the steel mills that hired 10s of thousands per mill, now they hire 100s and produce 3 times as much. Same for the trades, 40 carpenters to build a house in months, now 4 or 5 and it takes a week. If done right UBI will replace 100s of government programs and eliminate billons in waste. No more welfare or food stamps, unemployment or other wasteful offices. The transition will be hard but it will come.
F-OFF Nazi-Lover... USA IS NOT A NATIONAL SOCIALIST (NAZI) Nation. Your B.S. is exactly what is going/is tearing this nation apart.
Your just too damn !!!!-selfish-!!!! and ignorant to realize PROPERTY ownership is what motivated the USA into NOT become a tyrannical sh*tstain of a nation. You want UBI?? MOVE YOUR FILTHY TREASONOUS *SS TO A COUNTRY THAT HAS IT!!!!!!
^+10
I’m fine with UBI as long as it’s contingent on birth control. The world needs me, and if you don’t want it to need you, that’s fine, but don’t reproduce and give me more to take care of. Unless I’m the daddy.
Exactly. It will come.
So the task at hand is to prepare for it. To decide what kind of society you want to live in and how to achieve it.
The Neo-Liberals you see here want a society where millions and millions of people are living on the streets while they pretend that nothing is happening.
They are sick individuals. Truly sick, and they must be removed from all manner of social influence so their poison will not be continued to spread.
Stuff your head up your ass and breathe deeply.
"It's not a question of if UBI will come but when and how. ..."
While the Ds hold office and disastrously.
Fuck off and die.
Andrew Yang, "Communism works..."
Ya; Then MOVE your *ss to Cuba, the historical Soviet Union, Vietnam, China, or North Korea...
The BIG PICTURE idiots get duped by is....
These are the same F*ckers that created the above h*llholes and are now in the USA trying to CONQUER AND CONSUME it too.
Because that's what Nazi's do.... Conquer and Consume.
..... Any excuse to STEAL what others/a-nation has created.
Consume, Consume, Consume until the place is looted into shambles. Dismiss any notion of ownership, earning, or honesty... Use the Gov-GUNS to preform THEFT and conquer and consume.
"Andrew Yang, "Communism works..."" = Lying Libertarian
Andrew Yang never said that, so why are you lying about it?
I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.
You are no exception.
Fuck off and die.
I think Vendicardousche is Andrew Yang. Or at least he's blowin him.
Up until now, I've yet to use the mute function, but this annoying piece of shit is either a totally uneducated ignoramus or simply a lying troll.
Regardless, done!
I actually enjoy the debate, I often find it funny how the far left embraces Darwinism, until they realize they are the unfit. Then it's all about supporting them because "I so smart." They have to make up reasons why they are better somehow.
Guessing here, but some teenager, reading on some warped web sites about how socialism really does work, and it's the evil wreckers causing the problems.
Regardless, looks like it was a temporary infection of *STUPID*.
As-if UBI isn't communism...
So why are we letting millions of low-skilled, minimally educated illegal aliens in the country to add to the millions already here.
We have enough citizens and legal permanent residents that will be displaced over the next decade and most of those who legally enter the country are low-skilled with minimal education.
It doesn't mean that any of them are bad people but in a decade or so we will have 30-40 million people here incapable of supporting themselves. They'll cost way more than $1,000 a month.
Alaska is already using UBI for over 30 yrs. Also UBI will replace the bloated bureaucratic welfare system we have. If you think people can survive on $1,000 a month and not work, you're wrong. If anything, it will motivate people to work. Also, the money gets used in the local economy which helps local businesses.
We need to cut our defense budget by 20-30%. That is one of the biggest wastes in this country.