Why Due Process Matters

Plus: A listener asks who was the better president: Trump or Obama?

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Why Due Process Matters

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Peter Suderman, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, and Matt Welch discuss how President Donald Trump is de-prioritizing due process by not adhering to a ruling from the Supreme Court. They also talk about how Harvard University's tax status could be in jeopardy and reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis.

0:00—Introduction

0:12—The Pope's legacy

5:56—Is the democracy emergency here?

15:27—Deportations without due process

29:19—Harvard funding pause

41:25—Weekly listener question

48:11—Lightning round: What's happening at the Pentagon? What's going on with tariffs now? And what's next for AI?

54:33—Weekly cultural recommendations

 

Mentioned in this podcast:

"On the 'Invasion' of 'Libertarianism,' Pope Francis' Ignorance Is Showing," by Stephanie Slade

"Pope Francis Is Wrong. Property Rights Are Human Rights," by Steven Greenhut

"The Pope Who Helped Bring Down Communism," by Stephanie Slade

"Alex Nowrasteh and Bryan Caplan: The Case for More Immigration," by Nick Gillespie

"Mass Deportations Are Bad for Everyone's Liberty," by Steven Greenhut

"You know who admitted that Abrego Garcia's deportation was a mistake? The Trump admin," by Nick Gillespie

"Anti-US Sentiment Could Deliver a $90 Billion Hit to US GDP This Year," by Rachel Wolff

"Trump Advisers Took Advantage of Navarro's Absence To Push for Tariff Pause," by Alexander Saeedy and Josh Dawsey

"Trump Tariffs: The Economic Impact of the Trump Trade War," by Erica York and Alex Durante

"Peter Navarro's No-Good Economic Nationalism," by Eric Boehm

"U.S. Confidence in Higher Education Now Closely Divided," by Jeffrey M. Jones

"Steven Pinker: What Went Wrong at Harvard," by Nick Gillespie

"Pope Francis Has Died," by Liz Wolfe

"Pope Francis Supports Free Speech, Unless It Offends People," by Jacob Sullum

"What Happens When Presidents Defy Court Orders?" by Damon Root

"Ignoring SCOTUS," by Liz Wolfe

"Federal Appeals Court Rejects Trump Administration's Attempt To Block Return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia," by C.J. Ciaramella

"The Trump Administration's Increasing Hostility to Basic Due Process," by Joe Lancaster

"Federal Judge in Deportation Case Finds Probable Cause To Hold the Trump Administration in Contempt," by Jacob Sullum

 

Reason Events

The Soho Forum Debate: Eric Brakey vs. Andrew Heaton, April 26, Concord, New Hampshire

Reason Speakeasy: Robert Rosenkranz on The Stoic Capitalist, May 6, New York City

The Soho Forum Debate: Dave Smith vs. Alex Nowrasteh on Immigration, May 21, New York City

We are looking for a producer for our show! Please submit a resume and cover letter to [e-mail] with the subject of the email labeled as "Podcast producer."

Today's sponsors:

• Join the 2025 Great Connections Seminar in Chicago, July 26–Aug 2.  Designed for students 16–24, this week-long experience builds the core skills of entrepreneurship: critical thinking, persuasive communication, and intellectual independence. This year's theme, "Reason and Free Will," explores great minds like Aristotle, Ayn Rand, and Jefferson—not through lectures, but in dynamic, small-group discussions that train students to lead and innovate. Outside the classroom, they'll tour Chicago's museums, try improv, and connect with ambitious peers. In a world of AI and automation, original thinking is your competitive edge. Tuition is just $800, including room and board.  Scholarships available. Apply today at www.reliancecollege.org/reason
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• Video Editor: Ian Keyser

What are we consuming this week?

Nick Gillespie

• Black Mirror Season 7

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Legally Blonde

Matt Welch

• Sidebar: The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere 1: The Prelude

Peter Suderman

• Sinners

---

Comments

[Gaear Grimsrud]

When you get listener questions like that it's pretty clear that this is not a libertarian website.

[Rick James]

Trick answer: Jared Polis.

Do I have to think of everything, people?

[Wizzle Bizzle]

I can't top that.

[Dillinger]

>>de-prioritizing due process

lol clearly you people have no fucking clue what due process is it breaks my heart you put this nonsense out into the public & people think you're educating them

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

It is indeed embarrassingly ignorant and idiotic.

[Fats of Fury]

Reason's they/them of the year.
https://x.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1913728310527590472

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

We all need to confront MAPedo Jeffy about this guy. And insist he condemn him.

Want to bet that he won’t, no matter what?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

“Why due process matters “ You miserable hypocrites all deserve to be made homeless.

[JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)]

Would be a better talk if you guys read up and learned what due process is.

[I, Woodchipper]

Due process matters ... for americans. Why is this so hard to understand?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

How will you be able to prove to the authorities that you are a citizen without some sort of due process giving you the opportunity to offer that proof?

[rbike]

Well I supplied a birth certificate with my passport application. Also for my driver's license at 16. And at age 21 because I let my drivers license expire at 18 and mostly road my bicycle for those three years in college.
I just pull out one of these IDs and I am good. Passport works great at the airport, even for domestic travel

Are you stupid? Oh yeah, you are.

Guess one found us.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Well, as someone here said, "Mistakes happen". Let's hope that the government never makes a "mistake" and thinks that your passport is forged. By your standard, you would have no opportunity to correct the mistake before you were hustled onto a plane bound for El Salvador.

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

You have to understand that any answer MAPedo Jeffy gives, it will always be filtered through the lens of unlimited open borders no matter what. He will also, lie, obfuscate, and maintain an excruciating level of sophistry.

[JohannesDinkle]

The Biden administration allowed somewhere between 8 - 12 million illegal immigrants into the country. They were not vetted, nor was there a legal process - hence 'illegal.'
There are 700 federal judges. There are 260 weekdays in a year. If one illegal has a day in court every day in front of each of those judges 182,000 could get their due process every year, or 55 years to see them all. If we only give them 2 hours in court to make their cases, that's about 14 years to see them all.
The only way to handle these incredible numbers is for ICE to round them up and allow a phone call to get documents indicating they are here legally, such as a visa, birth certificate, passport, or citizenship papers. If they were detained mistakenly apologize and pay some recompense for the error. Send the rest back whence they came.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

First, Congress would have to get rid of the laws allowing aliens in removal proceedings to make asylum or withholding claims. Just as an example.

[Social Justice is neither]

No, we just have to accept the Leftist Libertarian stance that trespassing is a death sentence on sight (see Ashleigh Babysit) and after 10k justified (by modern left libertarian standards) or so murders everything will sort itself out by modern "libertarian" standards.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

A record number of apartments and hotel rooms were delivered the last several years…a libertarian blog shouldn’t have a problem with the immigration of the last several years especially when fentanyl deaths and violent crime spiked in 2020 when illegal immigration was at record lows. Basically you aren’t a libertarian, you just hated the black president because you are a racist. 😉

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

Fuck off and die, asswipe

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

Weak. Screaming ‘racist’ is so 2020.

Commit suicide.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Or - maybe - the government's approach to immigration should be smarter than 'round 'em all up'...

[VULGAR MADMAN]

That’s what Trump was elected to do, fat boy.

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

You and your faggot democrat friends made it necessary, Fatfuck.

[JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)]

More leftist theater.

The citizen arrested in tucson apparently claimed to be illegally here, even signing a statement. Glad reason didn't fall it this morning....

Tricia McLaughlin
@TriciaOhio
The narrative being pushed about Jose Hermosillo is false. On April 8, Hermosillo approached Border Patrol in Tucson and stated he had entered the U.S. illegally through Nogales. He said he wanted to turn himself in and completed a sworn statement identifying as a Mexican citizen who had entered unlawfully.

He was processed and appeared in court on April 11. Afterward, he was held by the U.S. Marshals in Florence, AZ. A few days later, his family presented documents showing U.S. citizenship. The charges were dismissed, and he was released to his family.

This arrest was the direct result of Hermosillo’s own actions and statements.

[MasterThief]

Oh shit. I've only briefly heard about this one and was skeptical of one person's hunch that it was an activist being deceptive for a media narrative. Guess I was wrong. Every time I think I have a grasp of how evil activists and media are they reveal how much worse they really are.

[Rick James]

It's almost like finding a pregnant(!) ten yr old within 15 miles of the border, where a waiting, long-time and known abortion activist is talking on a cell phone to someone in the Biden administration, letting them know she's inbound.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Thank you for dutifully repeating government narrative/propaganda, Jesse.

Who is Tricia McLaughlin? Some rando on X? No, she is the assistant secretary for DHS. Therefore, take her claims with a grain of salt. She even got the date of the court appearance wrong.

I'll believe this is true when I see the primary source material.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/immigration/2025/04/21/us-citizen-jose-hermosillo-arrested-held-10-days-immigration-charge-arizona/83196225007/

A U.S. citizen was held in custody for 10 days after the Border Patrol arrested him in Arizona for entering the country illegally.

Despite claiming in court April 10 [not April 11 as Tricia claimed] that he was a U.S. citizen, the charges against Jose Hermosillo were not dropped by government prosecutors until April 17.

Details of the case are scarce.

The court complaint filed against Hermosillo does not provide much narrative about his arrest. That document, filed in the federal court in Tucson, said he was found near Nogales “without the proper immigration documents.”

The document states that Hermosillo admitted April 8 that he had entered the United States illegally the day before near Nogales. But he told the judge a different story during his initial appearance April 10.

A minute entry documenting the hearing states Hermosillo told the judge he was a U.S. citizen. The entry also noted that he said he spoke both English and Spanish and preferred to conduct the hearing in English.

https://news.azpm.org/p/news-articles/2025/4/18/224512-us-citizen-in-arizona-detained-by-immigration-officials-for-10-days/

Court documents say a Border Patrol agent arrested Hermosillo “at or near Nogales, Arizona, without proper immigration documents” and that Hermosillo admitted to illegally entering the U.S.

Hermosillo and his girlfriend, who have a 9-month-old child together, live in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and are visiting family in Tucson. He says he has never been to Nogales.

His girlfriend’s aunt Grace Leyva says she and her family made numerous calls looking for him before they found out he was being detained in the Florence Correctional Center, which Immigration and Customs Enforcement uses to detain people.

Another family member drove to the detention center, about 70 miles northwest of Tucson, but said officials wouldn’t provide any information or release him.

ICE did not respond to a request for comment about the wrongful detention.

The family later provided officials with his birth certificate and social security card.

“He did say he was a U.S. citizen, but they didn't believe him,” Leyva said. “I think they would have kept him. I think they would have if they would have not got that information yesterday in the court and gave that to ICE and the Border Patrol. He probably would have been deported already to Mexico.”

[rbike]

Um, you are a dumbass even if the idiot didn't sign the statement. Mistakes happen.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Hermosillo was only able to get the mistake corrected because - get this - he had access to due process.

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

He should be criminally charged with any relevant crime for lying and wasting taxpayer money like that.

[Longtobefree]

Due process hasn't mattered since Jan 6th.
It jus that it's your turn now - - - - - -

[MasterThief]

Same goes for essentially all of Trump's legal cases. The novel interpretations of the law weren't a problem until it looked like they would lose. The prosecutorial and judicial misconduct wherein they didn't allow a defense and accepted "facts" that ran completely against all the evidence. They don't get to claim "due process" now especially when their bullshit examples include several instances of due process for illegals.

[I, Woodchipper]

Where was due process when the westfold fell?

[Social Justice is neither]

You Leftist cunts had not one shit to give about due process during the entire Biden admin but now that people who were legally ordered out of the country years ago are being moved out of the country you pretend to care? Fuck off you lying POS journo hacks.

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

There is no peace with democrats. We are at war. They will never stop.

They must go, now.

[5.56]

If only there were such a thing as principles...

[VULGAR MADMAN]

If only you knew what principles are.

[5.56]

You're retarded, is what I know.

[5.56]

On a different note, the republicans are toast. Hope you'll be around to see it and weep. You may expire from obesity before that though.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

That’s an interesting way to interpret a 20% democrat approval rate.

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

Cool story fag. You got any other democrat fan fiction you want to puke up.

[5.56]

Its actually simple: put someone in power, let them show how much of a tyrant they are. Both have failed this test spectacularly.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

No, the test is to elect someone who is willing to attempt to drain the swamp and let steaming piles of lefty shit like you whine.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

BTW, please tell us, specifically, how he is a "tyrant".

[Rick James]

Plus: A listener asks who was the better president: Trump or Obama?

On the one hand...

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Why are you people fighting so hard against the idea of due process for those that the government wishes to deport?

Surely you don't think the government is 100% correct every time when it decides to deport someone, right? The government makes mistakes, as we all plainly can see. Due process makes it less likely that these mistakes will lead to irreparable harm.

Plus, without due process, YOU aren't able to prove that you are a citizen if/when the government starts to question your citizenship. All the government has to do is declare that you aren't a citizen and - poof - your rights go away.

These are such logical, common-sense arguments, particularly on a libertarian forum, that I find it hard to understand why you all are fighting against it so hard.

Wait wait I know... is it because you don't give a shit about the migrants, and granting them due process would mean "the left wins"? Is that it?

[rbike]

I also don't want to spend a fortune on f'ng lawyers and judges to mitigate the same case over 20 million times. Our country is broke. We, the taxpayer don't want us or our kids paying for it. I just got done sending a lot of my money for dumbasses like you who want to spend it on people who broke the law. How much did you pay in taxes this year? Can't be much as you seem to spend you life arguing leftist crap on the internet.

You must be overjoyed by how your limousine values stick it to the working man. Sad loser that you are.

And yes.due process for non citizens is different from citizens.You may not like it but Too bad. How much money did you send to non citizens defense funds? Oh yeah, assholes like you don't answer questions that show you for the loser that you are.

[rbike]

Jeffy. You pay the legal fees for those wrongly deported. Go for it. Tell us how the Jeffy d
Defense Funds is doing great deeds. Set up a fund and 6
I will donate $0.10. I am sure others here will put up even more based on your virtuoso arguments. Show us what a good libertarian man you are, be the better of all of us. Or be the Marxist Asshole we see here and demand tax paying citizens be forced to pay legal fees for criminals we have no control over. Your virtue signalling rings hollow here, dumbass

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So are you a complete anarchist then? No tax money even for courts and law enforcement?

I am not an anarchist. I think the government has an obligation to pay for courts and law enforcement, in the pursuit of justice. Part of that pursuit means that taxpayers pay for courtroom expenses even for criminals in order to determine guilt or innocence. Do you agree with this basic idea?

[Strawmancasmic, Town Drunk and Gay for Booze]

Why would we pay to give lawyers to foreigners?

[Nobartium]

Surely you don't think the government is 100% correct every time when it decides to deport someone, right? The government makes mistakes, as we all plainly can see.

What is the acceptable failure rate?

All laws are worthless to enforce unless you can give it.

[rbike]

X

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"Why Due Process Matters"

Whoever writes the headlines needs to be fired. The proper headline here is:
"Why TDS-addled Shits Continue to Write for Reason Matters"

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

">>de-prioritizing due process
lol clearly you people have no fucking clue what due process is it breaks my heart you put this nonsense out into the public & people think you're educating them"

You'd imagine that a non-TDS addled steaming piles of shit might have noticed that whoever was acting POTUS for four years (also ignored by the steaming pile of shit Welsh and the "editors") had nothing to say regarding 'due process' in opening the gates in Texas, nor even ONE SINGLE article attempting to identify who was financing the hordes marching north through Mexico.
NOT ONE SINGLE ARTICLE, you steaming pile of shit Welsh!
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

BTW, please refund me every penny you've ever gotten from me, ass-wipe.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

BTW, I notice that in the four years where we had an acting, unknown, POTUS, neither the shitbag Welsh, nor any of the other swampshits writing for "REASON" (yes, those a scare-quotes) had any concern about "due process" regarding the arrival of those millions, nor a single article trying to determine who paid for the hordes to traverse Mexico to the southern border.
Fuck you with a barb-wire wrapped broomstick, Welsh!

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

Yes, Welsh needs to get reamed twice.