Why Socialists Are Cheering the Death of an Insurance CEO

Plus: A listener asks the editors if libertarians are more prone to believing in conspiracy theories.

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Why Socialists Are Cheering the Death of an Insurance CEO

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, and Peter Suderman assess the situation in Syria after Bashar al-Assad flees the country and dig into the health care policy debate in the wake of the recent assassination of United Healthcare's CEO, Brian Thompson.

02:58 - Bashsar al-Assad ousted in Syria
15:36 - Murdered United Healthcare CEO's death stirs debate
34:42 - Weekly listener question
48:56 - This week's cultural recommendations

Mentioned in this podcast:
"Assad Gone at Last," by Liz Wolfe
"Outlaws on Pickup Trucks Accomplish What $1 Billion in CIA Money Couldn't," by Matthew Petti
"Why Is America Still In Syria?" by Matthew Petti
"Constantly Shifting Alliances in Syrian Civil War Are Orwell on Steroids," by Nick Gillespie
"Obama Explains His Syria Failure on 60 Minutes," by Nick Gillespie
"There Are No Good Reasons for the U.S. To Wage War in Syria," by Nick Gillespie
"John Kerry's Morally, Linguistically, and Historically Obscene Case for War in Syria," by Matt Welch
"Wacko Birds vs. Angry Birds: This Time it's War," by Matt Welch
"Delay Deny Depose," by Liz Wolfe
"Hit on a CEO," by Liz Wolfe
"You're Either With Us, Or With the Insurance Companies," by Matt Welch
"5 Major Reasons Why VA Disability Claims Get Denied," by Turley Redmond & Rosasco, L.L.P.
"No one knows how often health insurers deny claims. Here's why," by Bruce Gil
"How Doctors Broke Health Care," by Christy Ford Chapin
"The U.S. Physician Shortage Is Only Going to Get Worse. Here Are Potential Solutions," by Elaine K. Howley
"If You Want More Doctors, Maybe Depending on the Feds Is a Bad Idea," by J.D. Tuccille
"Remy: People Will Die!" by Remy
"This Just In: Conspiracy Theorists Not Quite as Kooky as Previously Reported," by Jesse Walker
"How the Political Spectrum Turned Inside Out," by Jesse Walker
"Ron Paul Slams 'Cultural Marxism' with a Quickly Deleted Bigoted Cartoon," by Brian Doherty
"Going Protectionist Over a Fantasy Highway," by Shikha Dalmia and Leonard Gilroy
"Ron Paul's Rally," by David Weigel
"Tucker Carlson, Jesse Ventura, and the Ron Paul Rally," by Dan Hayes and David Weigel
"A Tale of Two Libertarianisms," by Brian Doherty
"Hunter Biden's Pardon Is Unprecedented," by Robby Soave
"After Hunter's Pardon, Joe Biden Should Support De-Weaponizing Government Power," by J.D. Tuccille
"Errol Morris Is Fascinated by and Terrified of Steve Bannon," by Nick Gillespie
"Errol Morris on Donald Rumsfeld, The Unknown Known, and Evidence-Based Journalism," by Nick Gillespie and Jim Epstein
"Still Fab: Why We Keep Listening To the Beatles," by Charles Paul Freund
"Long and Whining Road: The Beatles, the Boomers, and Boredom," by Nick Gillespie

Upcoming Events:
Reason Versus, December 18, 2024

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

Today's sponsors:

• Lumen. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach. You just breathe into the device and it measures your metabolism through your breath. The phone-based app lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs, and it gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep, and even stress management. Your metabolism is your body's engine—it's how your body turns the food you eat into fuel that keeps you going. Because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does, optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, and better sleep. It can help women track their cycles and the onset of menopause, and adjust recommendations to keep your metabolism healthy through hormonal shifts. So, if you want to stay on track with your health this holiday season, go to lumen.me/ROUNDTABLE to get 15% off your Lumen.
• ZBiotics. ZBiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by Ph.D. scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Make ZBiotics your first drink of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Go to zbiotics.com/ROUNDTABLE to get 15 percent off your first order when you use ROUNDTABLE at checkout. ZBiotics is backed with a 100 percent money-back guarantee so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked.

Audio production by Ian Keyser
Assistant production by Hunt Beaty
Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

• Video Editor: Ian Keyser
• Producer: Hunt Beaty

What are we consuming this week?

Nick Gillespie

• Separated, by Errol Morris

Peter Suderman

• Yellowstone

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• There and back again: local institutions, an Uruk expansion and the rejection of centralisation in the Sirwan/Upper Diyala region, Published online by Cambridge University Press: 04 December 2024

Matt Welch

• Beatles '64

---

Comments

[David Emami]

"Why Socialists Are Cheering the Death of an Insurance CEO?"

Umm... because they're socialists? Apparently you've never heard of the Baader-Meinhof folks, among many others.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I’m not cheering, but I’m not crying either.

[SIV]

Establishment centrists and their dupes are the only ones outraged.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I guess they have to pretend.

[Peter Kreeft taught me LOGIC, BEWARE !!!!!!!]

Well, there is the evil in a nutshell. Even if he were a bastard, what about his children ? I lean to him being a bastard but it's a damn crying shame for 3 reasons
1) The decent folk who loved and depenede on him
2)the animal that shot him
3)the increase in public violence

[Z Crazy]

Would you feel the same if it was a drunk driver who killed someone else?

https://www.threads.net/@rnmomof11/post/DDA_ds1y5yH

My daughter was killed 10/30/22 by a drunk driver. Claire Wenzel, Forever 26. Her drunk driver spent 2.5 months in jail. I've got a lifetime sentence without my precious daughter.

I wonder why there has never been any retailiatory killings in ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.

[Zeb]

Yes, it would also be evil to murder a drunk driver who accidentally caused someone's death.
Yes, people have killed for revenge throughout history. It doesn't make anything better for anyone.

[Jefferson Paul]

Many of the people cheering on the murder also support a single-payer socialized healthcare system. Do they think there are no denials of coverage in a government-run system?

[Kyfho Myoba]

From my reading of the comments section on the various forums, even more of the people cheering are on the right. Much less are giving non-specific entitlement "health care is a human right" bullshit than "they paid their premiums and now insurance doesn't want to pay" bad faith violation of contract reasons. That's what the shell casing message was - from a book called Delay, Deny, Defend - about how the insurance industry will use any method - legal or NOT - to avoid their contractual obligations.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

AKA envious, totalitarian cunts.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Or people who don’t like being abused.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

How are you being abused? The only abuse I see is government mandating terms of coverage. Otherwise it is all contract law.

Just because the contracts signed don't cover unicorns and rainbows doesn't mean you are being abused.

I fully preferred my high deductible plan. It was simple. Knew what I was getting. Negotiated with hospitals on most procedures I needed.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I’m not being abused because I have money. I really don’t want to be a victim of a revolution either.

[Kyfho Myoba]

Oh, you sweet, naive waif. UHC denied 32% of all claims, the highest in the industry. They used an AI that was found to be wrong 98% of the time. Since this was health insurance, many denied would die before the claim could be appealed/resolved. The message on the shell casings was from a book called Delay Deny Defend - about how insurance companies will use every legal and not-so-legal method to avoid paying claims. I'll just copy/paste/spam this from my other comment on another thread:

Sadly, I'm not surprised at the amount of straw-manning and no-true-scotsman fallacies being bandied about on various forums (including this one) on the shooting death of UHC CEO Brian Thompson. I refuse to call it a murder. Many here will call me a com-tard leftist for my position, but let's look at some facts. UCH under and AT Thompsons direction almost TRIPLED its rate of denying claims, to the highest in the industry: 32%. He even rationed anaesthesia. (?!?! You should give this some long and hard thought before replying) Other CEOs - Kim Keck of Anthem - did so as well but changed her mind the day after the shooting. (shocked face!!) UHC used an AI that had a reversal rate of 98%.

I understand that the practice of medicine is incredibly socialized - I've been a card carrying libertarian and Libertarian Rothbardian/Hoppean ancap for coming up on 50 years. I know how markets work and how collectivism doesn't in all the obscure, arcane ways. Bottom line: the people cheering the execution of Thompson are pretty much evenly split between left and right - I know, I read the comments in the various forums and can tell by their reasoning where they lie. Actually, on second thought, they're more right leaning. I see very few with general non-specific entitlement reasons, more of "they paid their premiums, and now the insurance doesn't want to pay" kinds of arguments. I, myself, have experienced this up close with 2 car accidents I was involved in as a passenger. The phrase from the shell casings is from a book "Delay Deny Defend" which describes the lengths that insurance companies will go to to evade paying claims while staying within the letter of the statute, while flipping the bird at the spirit.

Any way you slice it, Thompson defrauded and murdered his customers when they were most vulnerable.

“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.” Fredric Bastiat

Every process that Civilization developed for reducing violence in society has been weaponized by these companies against their customers, perfected by UHC and Thompson, and been subverted into an organ of oppression. Voting doesn't work. Protesting doesn't work. Courts don't work. Policing doesn't work. People are more than walking wallets, productivity percentages in excel, tax donkeys, or front line meat for the latest world building exercise for the organs of the Deep State.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design (CONSPRACY THEORIST!!!!) to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

There is only one box (soap, ballot, jury, cartridge) left of the American experiment and I predict you will see such acts with increasing frequency. Rebellion is my fucking heritage. Is it yours?

[Jerry B.]

The commentariat at the Washington Post assured me that only MAGA fanatics are celebrating the death of Brian Thompson. I was apparently confused by the number of what I can now only assume are MAGA fanatics, and not liberal Democrats, celebrating the death of Brian Thompson in the Post’s comments section.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Life can be complicated.

[Peter Kreeft taught me LOGIC, BEWARE !!!!!!!]

That is confusing morals with intelligence. You do what is right though you might not be infallilble

[Jefferson Paul]

I bet a bunch of the people cheering on the murder also donated to Act Blue. So a bunch of conservatives.

[Mickey Rat]

Because socialists are not moral people. They do not see their class enemies as worthy of having human rights.

[Bill-NM]

They ARE moral people - because they recognize something morally wrong when the "rich" (HUGELY profitable health insurance companies) choose to make people suffer and even die just to make another nickle in profit.

[DesigNate]

Hahahahahahaha

Yeah, no.

[Mickey Rat]

If health care was run by government, they would celebrate the bureaucrat running it making the exact same cost cutting measures in the face of scarcity. Hell, socialized medicine in Canada and the UK are advocating suicide as cost savings for their health care systems.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...They ARE moral people - because they recognize something morally wrong when the "rich" (HUGELY profitable health insurance companies) choose to make people suffer and even die just to make another nickle in profit...."

THIS is where slimy piles of lefty shit get started. Hint, shit for brains, a company exists to make money for its owners, not make some whiny ignoramus feel good about it.

[JohnZ]

Baader-Meinhof was created by NATO ,as was the Red Brigade.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Just STFU

[Kyfho Myoba]

You STFU. There are several court cases disclosing and many excellent and well reviewed books on the subject of NATO and false flags - see anything on Gladio.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.

[Kyfho Myoba]

No, he's not. It's well known. NATO used these false flags to inhibit growth of the CommTard in the fertile soil of European collectivism. There are several books on the topic of Gladio.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Because they are stupid and evil

[LIBtranslator]

So how are socialists different from national socialists--other than being the only two possible alternatives in the collectivist universe of discourse?

[voluntaryist]

Like the majority worldwide, the socialists are authoritarian, believe in "The Most Dangerous Superstition" (Larken Rose).
When the majority become anti-authoritarian, instead voluntarists, they won't miss the violence because reason, rights, choice, creates peace, prosperity. It's only logical.

[LIBtranslator]

Look, if the exec gave a damn whether he got shot or not he'd have paid for and added an assassination rider to his OWN health insurance coverage.

[shadydave]

Socialists are the ones responsible for all the power Health Insurance CEOs have. Or did we forget what a massive multi-billion dollar giveaway Obamacare was to the insurance companies. They created this monster.

The health insurance model is essentially broken. We'd be better off paying cash for all of our healthcare. Yes there'd be all sorts of problems with people being unable to afford their medical treatments, but then we have that now, don't we?

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Health insurance isn't broken. We don't have health insurance, we have government medical coverage. Having insurance cover routine care like physicals and teeth cleaning makes as much sense as having car insurance cover oil changes and refueling.

Insurance for serious expensive health issues would work fine if the government would just butt out. The solution is not paying in cash, but getting the government out of the process.

[sarcasmic]

Having insurance cover routine care like physicals and teeth cleaning makes as much sense as having car insurance cover oil changes and refueling.

Imagine what an oil change would cost if it was paid through a third-party payer system like health insurance.

[damikesc]

Perhaps we should heavily reduce what health insurance covers?

[sarcasmic]

Perhaps health care could post prices. Can you think of any other products or services that don't tell you what the prices are? Be like dropping your car off then being handed a bill without there first being no estimates, no price per hour, no nothing.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Why would that matter when government mandates what is covered. Such as mental health sessions, yearly checkups, etc.

To think you almost understood in your first post.

[sarcasmic]

What would it matter what is covered or not if you don't have any idea of what you are going to be paying until you get a bill? There are a few things going on. One is that prices are distorted by the third party payer system, the biggest payer being the government. Another is that people are mandated by law to pay coverage for things they neither want nor need. And the fact that no providers posts any prices makes it impossible to shop like you would for anything else.
Ideally you'd look to see what your insurance will pay, look at what some providers charge, and decide what to do. You can't do that. No one will give you the information.

[Don't look at me!]

Sarc is a victim once again.

[creech]

Dentists and optometrists do.

[VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)]

Wonder if that has anything to do with most of their services not being covered by health insurance? Most vision and dental plans are separate from health insurance, cover very little in the way of non-emergency care, and mostly function as a way of joining a discount club.

[middlefinger]

With the exception of illegals in Colorado coverage of vision and dental by the state taxpayers or state Medicaid.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Some days you just go out of your way to prove you're retarded on every subject.

If the consumer has gov mandated coverage for a procedure, what motivation do they have to compare costs?

Note eye vision surgery and electives are not mandated to be covered. Those prices do compete. Your gov mandated inclusive procedures have zero consumer motivation to do so.

Note. Most gov aca subsidized plans don't even have a copay or deductible.

Private aca plans generally have a cap on out of pocket.

Have you ever looked at benefits if you even have them?

[Alberto Balsalm]

So as usual, Jesse has nothing to offer but to shit up the thread. How is any of that word salad you just shit out of your brain address the point that health insurance is the only business that doesn't tell you how much your bill could be? A gov mandate for coverage still does not give you any idea what the cost of that procedure will be. At least you moved the goalposts to the aca. You are fucking annoying

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Lol. Another sarc sock.

Sorry I supplied more than ignorance and bumper sticker talking points.

People don't care about the costs of what they perceive as free dumbfuck.

[sarcasmic]

How is any of that word salad you just shit out of your brain address the point that health insurance is the only business that doesn't tell you how much your bill could be?

It's not supposed to. All he does is attack people with lies until they defend themselves.

[DesigNate]

Health insurance tells you exactly what the price is for the product they sell you. The party that is opaque about pricing are the medical care providers.

And Jesse’s point, which you obviously failed to grasp, was that it doesn’t matter if those providers posted their costs if the insurance is mandated to cover it.

[middlefinger]

You’re both right. Health insurance should cover big ticket items only (govt get out of mandatory coverage) AND prices should be listed.

Group hug coming soon:-)

[Minadin]

Republicans are actually proposing something very similar to this in Missouri; to have doctors, hospitals, ambulance services, etc, publish their prices for services, so consumers can shop around. They also think that the transparency in pricing will increase competition among providers, and put downward pressure on costs, generally.

[middlefinger]

I now see some MRI providers listing prices. If I need an MRI, I’m shopping price.

[sarcasmic]

Problem with asking hospitals to give prices is that many of them just don't know what the prices are. They charge differently depending on the insurance or lack thereof. I have tried many times to get a straight answer about prices and the only thing anyone has ever told me is that they won't know until they submit it to the insurance.

[Minadin]

Ask them how much if you're paying cash.

[sarcasmic]

I have a high deductible plan with an HSA, so I basically do pay in cash. Thing is, they negotiate a price with the insurance company first. In the end the bill claims that the insurance company got me a discount, but without knowing the price beforehand it's impossible to know if that's true or bullshit.

[Minadin]

I went in for a doctor's appointment a few years back, when I insisted on paying cash instead of filling out all the insurance paperwork, my bill went from $200 for the visit, to $75.

Which would have been approximately my deductible anyway, on my plan.

[VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)]

If only sarc could put 2 and 2 together and figure out that it isn't insurance companies to blame for this.

[damikesc]

Which is why hospitals making insurance the "bad guy" a bit impressive. Insurance just says what they will and will not pay for.

Hospitals charge the fees.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

Like Car Shield?

[Medulla Oblongata]

I think we mostly have government mandated healthcare, aka fascist healthcare. Think about what Obamacare did to the already heavily regulated HC industry while reading this description of fascism.

Econlib:

As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically.

Under fascism, the state, through official cartels, controlled all aspects of manufacturing, commerce, finance, and agriculture. Planning boards set product lines, production levels, prices, wages, working conditions, and the size of firms. Licensing was ubiquitous; no economic activity could be undertaken without government permission. Levels of consumption were dictated by the state, and “excess” incomes had to be surrendered as taxes or “loans.”

[Set Us Up The Chipper]

...and among other things, NGO's are uniquely fascist.

[DesigNate]

Hence why I continue to assert that we’ve been fascist for a looooong time.

[Bill-NM]

"Routine maintenance" saves a TON of money in the long run.

[XM]

"Socialists are the ones responsible for all the power Health Insurance CEOs have. Or did we forget what a massive multi-billion dollar giveaway Obamacare was to the insurance companies. They created this monster."

The giveaway was largely negated by the ACA mandate. The insurers would rather most poor people just enroll in expanded state medicaid rather than buy their policy and drive up cost.

We warned these people ACA would shrink coverage and hike up premiums. If you force insurers to take in more at risk individuals and pay for more expensive procedures (including abortion), they have incentive to shrink coverage.

I've told these socialists online that ACA allows for states to go single payer. I ask them why they don't tell their one party state government in blue states to do that, and they just sort of say nothing. What's the political affiliation of these millionaires again?

[BYODB]

The giveaway was largely negated by the ACA mandate.

For what it's worth, that was never really true. They claimed it would be true, that definitely happened, but as far as I know it never actually held water.

The insurers would rather most poor people just enroll in expanded state medicaid rather than buy their policy and drive up cost.

Insurance companies would rather those young poor people pay them a primum and receive no services than go on medicaid and pay the insurance company nothing and receive services. With insurance, 'the poor' have to pay out of pocket at least some portion, with medicaid they do not.

I can tell you that medicare and medicaid also drive up costs for services by setting a price floor, then the hospital has to charge those with insurance or self-pay more to make up the difference. Those patients, especially medicaid patients, are a loss. It's why providers don't take unlimited medicare/medicaid patients, they'd go out of business.

That does indeed effect the prices that insurance companies pay to providers. I don't know if health insurance CEO's actually care about the long term, but long term that is the case and has been since long before the ACA was signed into law. Pretty sure it's been the case since Reagan, at least, and the passage of the EMTALA.

I'm no expert on the subject, but after working in hospitals for more than a decade and having a father with a private practice I probably know more about it than the average Joe.

[Overt]

Right. The fact of the matter is that the Insurance Companies love ACA because it guarantees them that they get customers, and it guarantees them a basic, fixed profit margin.

The dirty secret is that the incentives now are NOT to deny coverage. It is to approve coverage and continue jacking up rates. If the Insurance Company can show their claim costs are X, then they can charge X + 1.5% profit margin and keep that margin. Their incentive is to allow costs to go up, because that is the only way to increase the absolute dollar take for their company.

Obamacare was an unmitigated disaster.

[Beezard]

I always thought the insurance companies wrote Obamacare.

Now I’m seeing commercials for blue cross+blue shield pushing “fair pricing”. Don’t know or care enough to read the fine print, but it instantly reeks of an attempt at “privatized” (as in Gleichschaltung) price controls.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Medicaid and Medicare cost shift much of their costs onto private plans. Last time I looked Medicare paid 96% of costs, Medicaid about 92%. Hospitals won't work at a loss, so they simply raise prices on those with private coverage to make up the loss. Estimate was over 20% of private plan costs are from these shifts.

[charliehall]

And Musk will be sure to make that worse.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Leftists here are getting dumber and dumber.

[Don't look at me!]

Nobody is dumber than Charliehall

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

Oh? Is Charliehall a Sarckles sock?

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

How the fuck will "Musk will make that worse", you ridiculous clown. What does Musk even have to do with Medicaid and Medicare? That's not part of the Department of Government Efficiency's mandate. It's a presidential advisory commission, it doesn't have any power on its own to effect change, just make recommendations to Trump and Congress.
You guys gaslight yourselves.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

""Hospitals won't work at a loss, so they simply raise prices on those with private coverage to make up the loss.""

Private coverage often has contracted rates also so the hospital can't charge them more. Well they can, but the insurance doesn't care about the charge amount and is going to pay the contracted amount. Few commercial plans pay the docs what the docs charge.

The hospital or doctor's full charge amount is billed to those who have no insurance.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

""Hospitals won't work at a loss, so they simply raise prices on those with private coverage to make up the loss.""

Private coverage often has contracted rates also so the hospital can't charge them more. Well they can, but the insurance doesn't care about the charge amount and is going to pay the contracted amount. Few commercial plans pay the docs what the docs charge.

The hospital or doctor's full charge amount is billed to those who have no insurance.

[Jefferson Paul]

"I'm gonna go get the papers, get the papers."

[DesigNate]

I like to point out that California spent like a year “studying” how it could be implemented and the costs associated with it and determined it would cost them their entire yearly budget.

[SIV]

The " US healthcare system" is economic fascism

[charliehall]

Idiot. Socialists would put all the private health insurance companies put of business.

[VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)]

Socialists would put everybody out of business, fuckwad.

[Bill-NM]

And you are saying that's a BAD thing? Do you realize the USA pays WAY more for health care and gets WAY worse results? Which is the opposite of most of the rest of the world. Please pay attention to real-world facts.

[DesigNate]

Charlie is one of your fellow travelers there Bill.

[VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)]

Bill, like charlie, is a stupid Leftist, and believes things like "way worse results [per money spent]".

Citation needed, Billy.

[Mickey Rat]

They are responsible for creating the situation whereby getting health insurance at work became the norm due to wage control polices during WWII as alternative incentive.

[GroundTruth]

Paying cash or having private (voluntary) insurance for unexpected major costs (having a baby in the US is neither unexpected nor uncontrollable). And, having one price for all users regardless of how they are paying (it's absurd that a hospital or physicians bill is cut by 75% from the nominal charge the moment it goes to an insurance company, but Joe Public paying cash at the time of service pays 100% [90% in the case of one of my uncovered tests]).

Government meddling is a large part of the problem, including the WWII crap of allowing an employer to pay premiums pre-tax, but private individuals paying post-tax (or with an absurdly high IRS deduction).

Take a look at cosmetic surgery or veterinary medicine to see how the system can work, at prices that reflect the actual cost.

And no, Bernie, Liz and Barry, healthcare is NOT a right. Healthcare is a commodity.

[LIBtranslator]

Ackshully, yes, National Socialist like Herbert Clark Hoover and Harry Anslinger.

[mad.casual]

For a magazine called Reason, on the 'conspiracy' question, there is/was a surprising lack of "What's the distinction between a *conspiracy* and 'Collective action of which I or other people in general were not aware.', or even just good old-fashioned group think? At what point does a conspiracy theorist become a conspiracy realist?" and an awful *fucking* lot of "Those *other* "libertarians" are conspiracy theorists."

The only reason Hayek and Rand aren't/weren't conspiracy theorists because the Socialists and Nazis were fucking real and fucking kidnapping people out of their homes in the middle of the night, Nick. FFS Atlas Shrugged is about a conspiracy of industrialists absconding from society at large while the conspiracy of government cuts off it's own head with a secret sonic weapon, Project X. Hayek has a goddamned cartoon explaining how the conspiracy of "serfdom" comes about via "national planners".

[CE]

These days, if you're not a conspiracy theorist, you're entirely too gullible. The only question is which conspiracy theory is closer to the truth.

[Rick James]

I feel that once enough of your theories are proven correct, you should no longer be called a "conspiracy theorist" but a "conspiracy scientist".

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

While we are re-defining words (apparently the kool kid thing in this century) "conspiracy" now means a view that Democrats first deny but three to six months later admit is substantially true.

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

Conspiracy Studies should be part of Anthropology.

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

Russia stealing an election using peeing hookers, Hillary's own emails and $150k in Facebook ads is very credible, but ballot box stuffing by the party of Tammany Hall and the Chicago Machine is a crazy conspiracy theory.

I've kept these quotes for Reason output like this:

"The same media outlets that spent 5 years trying to convince Americans that the Kremlin had taken control of the US through clandestine sexual and financial blackmail over the President -- to great profit for themselves -- insist they are combating unhinged conspiracy theories."
-Glenn Greenwald

"There's no need for a formal conspiracy when all of the economic and political elites share the same ideology."
-George Carlin

[Rick James]

There is no deep state, there's just this thing where all the government agencies and bureaucrats work within their own set of specialized interests-- the goal of which is to maintain and grow the institutions.

[LIBtranslator]

Ah. So there IS a looter Kleptocracy?

[Juliana Frink]

Thanks ML! I just copy/saved your two quotes for future use.

"Fortunately, Ah keep my feathers numbered for just such an emergency."
-Foghorn Leghorn

[shadydave]

The thing is with "conspiracy theories" is that people conspire.

[Marshal]

What's the difference between a conspiracy and activism?

Whether Dems want the public to know about it.

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

It goes a little something like this:

Democrats & Globalists: "Let's replace Western populations with compliant third-worlders, and call them racist if they object"

Pleb: "Wow! Did you guys read this. They say they're planning to replace us all with compliant third-worlders"

Democrats & Globalists (and Jeff): "You're a racist conspiracy theorist for believing that"

[Medulla Oblongata]

Well done.

[CE]

The police caught the alleged shooter. While they were "tightening the net" in Georgia, a McDonald's employee in Pennsylvania identified him and notified police.

Just another "anti-capitalist," Ivy League, Act blue donor(?), this one from a wealthy family.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14174379/brian-thompson-unitedhealthcare-ceo-latest-hunt-pennsylvania.html

And it's sickening how many people are okay with murder if they don't like the victim.

Update: Shooter was arrested on firearms charges, since he had a 3D printed ghost gun.... uh-oh.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Tribes >>> principles

[Jerry B.]

There’s apparently a manifesto. Wonder if we’ll ever get to see it.

[A Thinking Mind]

What a shocker that, with so many champagne socialists applauding a murder, the murderer turned out to be a champagne socialist.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Let's look back to what I posted a couple of days ago:

Red Rocks White Privilege 3 days ago
So this guy decided to use a designer handgun brand rather than just a standard Browning or Taurus 9mm that's in reach of most people's budgets. That's the first indication that this is some sort of Antifa trust fund brat or a paid-for hit rather than a crime of passion.

Well, I was wrong about the gun, but correct that it was an Antifa trust fund brat.

Nuke Portland and the Ivies today.

[Lester75]

"Like smokers in blue states, they'll probably make for handy targets of hatred and government tribute, until they cease to exist altogether."
If the smokers in any state cease to exist altogether, they'll stop driving up the insurance rates in that state.

[Rick James]

Yeah man, right on. Now, how would you like your fentanyl... with one or two Narcan boosters? What's that? Two? Oh I see, because one doesn't work any more.

[SIV]

I'm not sure smokers drive up insurance rates.

[Don't look at me!]

Certainly not as much as the fatties do.

[CE]

Probably not. Smokers tend to die earlier, and it's mostly older people who spend a lot on health care.

[Zeb]

As far as I've seen, every time they do the analysis it turns out that smokers save on lifetime health care costs.

[Lester75]

Wow. Will have to lobby for advertising cigarettes to children now. More savings for me.

[AT]

They're cheering because they believe lock, stock, and barrel in Critical Theory.

The rich health care CEO was the "oppressor" (it doesn't matter to a one of them whether they even heard his name before the day his murder was reported). The assassin was the "oppressed" rising up against him.

That's all that matters to them. Simple things that should be easy for ANYONE to condemn - like "premediated murder" - don't even enter into the equation, because everything is rationalized. This isn't even the worst thing they've celebrated in recent years.

Remember when literal Muslim terrorists put little Jewish babies into ovens and burned them alive? Literal violent terrorism against babies - and the socialists celebrated the terrorists and not the victims of their truly heinous evildoing.

This is what happens when you take morality - and God - out of society. Rudderless monsters who believe ends justify means so long as they're categorized correctly.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

You do realize that god has been used to justify terrorism, right?

[AT]

Which god?

[Zeb]

The God of Abraham mostly. Probably some others too.

[AT]

I'm going to need you to provide some examples of that claim.

[charliehall]

Not just terrorism but genocide. Ashlenazi Jews still recite prayersnin memory of the victims of the Crusaders. And after Jews were expelled from Western Europe, Christians massacred millions of other Christians in the name of God.

[AT]

John 18:36.

Also, Matthew 7:15.

I think you're thinking of social/political movements that aimed to exploit religious sentiment that was nowhere expressed by Christ.

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

And after Jews were expelled from Western Europe, Christians massacred millions of other Christians in the name of God.

Wut? The so-called Wars of Religion had Catholic and Protestant armies fighting different Catholic and Protestant for most of them.
They were 95% princes seizing territories and just 5% hating on the Hussites and Huguenots.
For example, Catholic France, fearful of an increase in Catholic Habsburg power, often fought against it on the Protestant side.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)]

You are conflicting many things. The crusaders were Christians fighting against the muslim horde that was raping and piliging their way across the middle east

[SIV]

"Remember when literal Muslim terrorists put little Jewish babies into ovens and burned them alive? "

No

[Don't look at me!]

Whew! I thought I was losing my memory.

[AT]

Thank you for illustrating.

[charliehall]

That was Christians in Europe in the 1940s.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Most historians describe his later posture as adversarial to organized Christianity and established Christian denominations.[3][4]

From your favorite source wiki. I can get you actual quotes. But you'll never learn.

[CE]

You mean occultists.

[Mother's Lament (Salt farmer)]

"That was Christians in Europe in the 1940s"

Are you one of those morons who thinks that the neo-pagan/atheist Nazi Party or Mussolini's fascists were Christian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/nazis-fought-original-war-christmas-180961513/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_plot_to_kidnap_Pope_Pius_XII

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_resistance_to_Nazi_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Religious_views

https://bigthink.com/the-present/nazis-occult/

[DesigNate]

Charlie is nearly as dumb as shrike, so of course he thinks Nazis were Christian’s.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)]

The group that just took over Syria literally put christrins and jews in cages and burns them alive

[creech]

So, according to a lot of lefties, there should be plenty of room for a bunch of non-greedy, altruistic, compassionate investors to establish one or more health insurance companies that will thrive on lower premium costs, never deny a claim, cover anything deemed a "health procedure, " and take on all comers no matter how sick they are when they apply for the coverage.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Just like how there is a wide open market for a bunch of non-greedy, altruistic, compassionate investors to establish one or more pharmaceutical companies that will be able to invent, test, manufacture, and deliver life-saving drugs at no cost to people who really need them.

I tip my hat to Mark Cuban for his efforts along these lines.

[Jerry B.]

But their reply to the suggestion that they build their own "whatever" is "The government should do that for us."

[LIBtranslator]

Note to foreign readers: "So, according to a lot of lefties" means "So, according to many who are not Christian National Socialists". By pretending freedom can never exist, looters narrow the field and compete by flinging ordure at one another while howling about "morally opposing the worst evil." Voting for REPEAL of bad laws never enters into the shouting match.

[charliehall]

Proof that the extreme left is as bad as the extreme right. The difference is that the extreme right is back in power on January 20.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Getting dumber and dumber.

[AT]

What is it you think you stand to lose?

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Tulsi Gabbard and RFKjr are part of the Klan

[chemjeff radical individualist]

A listener asks the editors if libertarians are more prone to believing in conspiracy theories.

The answer is yes.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

LOL, yeah, all those "conspiracy theories" that later turned out to be actual fact that your side was trying to suppress.

[CE]

Of course they are. Libertarians tend to be above average in intelligence, and contrarian by nature, not accepting proffered narratives uncritically.

[Zeb]

Compared to whom?

[DesigNate]

Statist bootlickers who always give the government the benefit of the doubt?

[Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)]

Ask what the cash price is for an operation. If they can't give you a responce kill th highest ranking beauracrat. Repete

[MWAocdoc]

Concerning Rothbard's "I consider it a tribute to the moral qualities of an individualist society that private charity and philanthropy helps the unfortunate people in our midst," in critique of Ayn Rand and "rugged individualism": I think that the point cannot be emphasized enough - especially now - that the whole point of individual liberty as a constitutionally-protected social system is to improve the lot of the masses. Most people are not going to be convinced to protect the rights of people with whom they disagree by elitist elevation of heroic industrialists who were, after all, just iconic figments of Rand's imagination. The non-aggression principle when encoded into law and enforced by limited government systems is the only self-consistent code both morally AND pragmatically and, when supported by the vast majority of people in a society, leads to economic mobility, opportunity, general prosperity AND freedom.

[Peter Kreeft taught me LOGIC, BEWARE !!!!!!!]

Okay, first comment I can approve in say the last 6 months.
Yes, you are right , both logically and as a matter of experience.

But you must know Lincoln's beautiful take on this:

"on the other hand, good men, men who love tranquility, who desire to abide by the laws, and enjoy their benefits, who would gladly spill their blood in the defense of their country; seeing their property destroyed; their families insulted, and their lives endangered; their persons injured; and seeing nothing in prospect that forebodes a change for the better; become tired of, and disgusted with, a Government that offers them no protection; and are not much averse to a change in which they imagine they have nothing to lose. Thus, then, by the operation of this mobocractic spirit, which all must admit, is now abroad in the land, the strongest bulwark of any Government, and particularly of those constituted like ours, may effectually be broken down and destroyed--I mean the attachment of the People. Whenever this effect shall be produced among us; whenever the vicious portion of population shall be permitted to gather in bands of hundreds and thousands, and burn churches, ravage and rob provision-stores, throw printing presses into rivers, shoot editors, and hang and burn obnoxious persons at pleasure, and with impunity; depend on it, this Government cannot last. By such things, the feelings of the best citizens will become more or less alienated from it"

[Peter Kreeft taught me LOGIC, BEWARE !!!!!!!]

Maybe what the executive held that you don't approve, he only held for reasons totally unrelated. More likely such a person is amoral rather than immoral. Something that most radicals never understand because many radicals are amoral themselves and only derivatively immoral

[Z Crazy]

Theres no logical stopping point.

I read someone else make this comparosn.

If it was okay to murder him, that what about drunk drivers who cause a crash that kills someone else?

https://www.threads.net/@rnmomof11/post/DDA_ds1y5yH

My daughter was killed 10/30/22 by a drunk driver. Claire Wenzel, Forever 26. Her drunk driver spent 2.5 months in jail. I've got a lifetime sentence without my precious daughter.

Why don't their victims' families get to murder THEM?

[JohnZ]

Apparently United healthcare has a dismal record of denying even the most basic procedures. Some 30% denial rate. This doesn't make them very popular.
However, there is a certain feeling this was a hit to keep him quiet.
Who knows.
The authorities have a "person of Interest" in custody.
BTW you can thank bathhouse Barry and his Obama Care for destroying the family doctor.
"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." Bullshit Barry.

[middlefinger]

Another mandate in ACA was placing IT and software companies as middlemen in every aspect of healthcare. Expensive software maintenance contracts in the middle of already expensive healthcare.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

If you believe that , you’re dumber than a rock

[Zipcreature]

“The Left Celebrates Assassination.” FTFY

Reason carrying water for the DNC claiming it’s only “socialists” celebrating the assassination when clearly is LEFTISTS in general is obvious.

[Brandybuck]

99% of Leftists in General are socialists. The remaining Leftists are anarcho-agorists. Just saying.

[LIBtranslator]

100% of republicans, communists, socialists, nazis and anarchists are intellectuals of the looter persuasion. What they do NOT want is a laissez-faire sociaty where you can live your life without swindling, robbing, beating or murdering anyone, with a government that ONLY keeps others from swindling, robbing, beating and murdering you. Leftist is the cowardly way National Socialists characterize International Socialists, These in turn call those Right, Rightist or Right-wing, meaning superstitious mystics in every case.

[Uncle Jay]

The hypocrisy of the left is overwhelming.
They always preach love, peace, and tolerance...unless you disagree with their Marxist beliefs.
Then no death is fast enough for anyone who disagrees with them.

[TJJ2000]

I guess it wasn't the CEO of Obamacare "insurance" was it?
You bought the WRONG insurance company so therefore must die!
Talk about the party of crony capitalism (socialism).

[Brandybuck]

> Why Socialists Are Cheering the Death of an Insurance CEO

Because Socialists are for violence. Violent revolutions go hand in hand with socialism. THere are no peaceful socialists, they all wear t-shirts of notorious mass murderer Che Guevara.

Also, not an "insurance" CEO, but the CEO of a health PROVIDER! UHC provides clinices and direct health care to the poor. My mother's primary care physician is at a UHC clinic, paid for by ... wait for it ... wait ... MEDICARE!!! Not eebil corporatist insurance involved, but the same kind of single payer system that violent socialists demand for everyone. Sigh.

[Lester75]

United Healthcare is a huge insurance company:
https://www.uhc.com/

[LIBtranslator]

96% of the voters comprising sth like 60% of the population all voted for religious or lay Kleptocracy socialists. So the suckers gulled by government-nutured insurance conglomerates are basically hated by the grifters who hustled them. Violence is the standard of value chosen by both gangs, yet both are shocked to get what they bargained for and deserve. Schadenfreude to both gangs.

[LIBtranslator]

Go to the Google News Archive and search "conspiracy". Of the first 20 hits, 9 are in newspapers before the LP existed. Prohibition prosecutor Willebrandt complained in 1929 that conspiracy indictments were a kluge to prosecute people for the felony of beer. After Nixon left Dallas while JFK lay dying, a whole new layer of meaning attached to conspiracy and magic bullets. Observe that in about all cases, the persons wielding "conspiracy" as a pejorative are Republican looter prohibitionists.

[LIBtranslator]

To answer Nick. The Prohibition Party and the mystical bigots that fuel it--in These States as in Islamic States--are the main drivers for threatening doctors at gunpoint, jailing them and ripping up their work permits. Back then it was beer and opium. Then, once guns were aimed at everyone in Amerika, why not export that prohibitionism to even more violent countries through the Hague and League of Nations and bully Germany until two World Wars result. Then of course the Right Thing To Do would be make up lies to explain it all away. Truth was the first casualty.

[LIBtranslator]

Compared with all other media and reporting, the Reason Roundtable is hands-down the most relevant and entertaining, with all the others grouping together with Pravda, Voelkischer Beobachter and OAN in terms of comparative credibility. The nearest thing you have to competitors are the Onion and Babylon Bee. Peter hardly ever says "um" between words because he talks so fast none can interrupt. Katherine likewise is sure-footed, so Matt and Nick could benefit from their example and leave the competition even farther behind.

[Kyfho Myoba]

After voraciously reading every comment on every article I could find on this topic, I feel competent to make this comment: I am able to guess the ideology of the commenter much of the time, and I find that a bit more people that lean towards Liberty are broadly in favor of the vigilantism of Luigi the Claims Adjuster than those that lean ProgTard (as evidenced by the "dicta" in their comments referring to health care as a human right, and similar nonsense).