Migrants Are People, Not Props

Plus: The editors have gripes with Biden’s recent interview on 60 Minutes.

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Migrants Are People, Not Props

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Katherine Mangu-Ward, Matt Welch, Peter Suderman, and Nick Gillespie discuss the fallout from Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis' political stunt that sent migrants to Martha's Vineyard and Joe Biden's interview on 60 Minutes.

1:58: Migrants at Martha's Vineyard

26:09: Weekly Listener Question:

Many institutions seem to have lost their way recently, often due to audience or donor capture. On the left, the ACLU has lost its free speech absolutism and now thinks some speech is not worth protecting. NPR has become a sad, woke, unlistenable parody of its former self. On the right, Katherine's former employer, The Weekly Standard went under when the editors and financial backers went different ways regarding Trump. Reason has been very consistent for the past 50+ years (with the possible exception of that piece by Matt Welch praising France's health care system: "Why I Prefer French Health Care"). How has the magazine of "Free Minds and Free Markets" been so consistent and done so well for so long? And more importantly, what is being done to ensure its continued success and principled commitment to libertarian ideas? P.S. I will be attending Reason's space-themed Halloween party in a "Sexy Nick Gillespie Astronaut" costume.

35:18: Joe Biden interviewed on 60 Minutes

46:52: This week's cultural recommendations

Mentioned in this podcast:

"Spending Down $12 Million in Pandemic Relief Money on an Immigration Stunt Isn't 'Responsible Fiscal Policy'," by Fiona Harrigan

"If Ron DeSantis Hates Communism, He Shouldn't Weaponize Victims of Communism," by Fiona Harrigan

"DeSantis and Abbott Are Wrong To Treat Migrants as a Punishment," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"How Closed Borders Helped Facilitate the Holocaust," by Nick Gillespie

"U.S. Labor Demand Explains Most of the Rise in Illegal Immigration," by Alex Nowrasteh

"How Immigrants Make America Great Again (and Again and Again)," by Nick Gillespie

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

Today's sponsors:

• We're sponsored today by DonorsTrust, the tax-friendly way to simplify your charitable giving without compromising your values. Is cancel culture coming for your charitable dollars? Big banks that sponsor charitable-savings accounts, or "donor-advised funds" as they're formally called, have a history of slow-walking or altogether blocking donations to conservative and libertarian charities. Charities rejected by some of the big banks include Atlas Network, National Review Institute, the National Rifle Association Foundation, Liberty Counsel, and others. Clearly, not every donor-advised-fund provider welcomes libertarians or conservatives. Let DonorsTrust help service your charitable giving. DonorsTrust was built with our listeners in mind—people who believe limited government and constitutional rights are worth fighting for. If you already have a donor-advised fund, consider opening a rollover account. It can be done in three simple steps by calling my friends at DonorsTrust. The DonorsTrust team will work with you to protect your charitable legacy and help you achieve your charitable goals. Partner with the fund that matches your values. To learn more, download their prospectus at www.donorstrust.org/reason.
• It can be tough to train your brain to stay in "problem-solving mode" when faced with a challenge in life. But when you learn how to find your own solutions, there's no better feeling. A therapist can help you become a better problem solver, making it easier to accomplish your goals—no matter how big or small. If you're thinking of giving therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great option. It's convenient, accessible, affordable, and entirely online. Get matched with a therapist after filling out a brief survey, and switch therapists any time. When you want to be a better problem solver, therapy can get you there. Visit BetterHelp.com/roundtable today to get 10 percent off your first month.

Audio production by Ian Keyser

Assistant production by Hunt Beaty

Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

What are we consuming this week?

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Firefly

Nick Gillespie

• Creem, America's Only Rock 'n' Roll Magazine

Peter Suderman

• Cult Classic, by Sloane Crosley

Matt Welch

• Secrets of the Saqqara Tomb

---

Comments

[ElvisIsReal]

So when you put out signs and press releases saying migrants are welcome yet you send them away in under 48 hours.....what is that if not simply posturing for the camera?

https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/virtue-signaling-v-reality

[JesseAz]

Reason has fully dropped the veil they aren't blue check mark narrative pushers.

Where is the Fiona article saying how happy MV should be to have migrants?

[Stuck in California]

Migrants?

They mean immigrants. Possibly illegal immigrants. People who are not citizens, who have not come to this country legally, who likely do not have a legal right to work (green card, visa, etc).

Migrants makes it sound like people already here moving to a new place. Can't find a job locally, so they head out to the coast to seek their fortune.

Reason and all of the rest of the MSM keep trying to make them seem like a legal underclass. They are not. Many of these poor souls are people who cannot legally hold a job. Anyone hiring them and paying them is committing a crime, if they accept work they are committing a crime. They are Immigrants, mostly unlawful immigrants, somehow allowed to stay. Not "migrants".

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[Mike Laursen]

Yeah, “migrants” is not accurate. Venezuelan asylum seekers is more accurate. Great job on using people trying to escape from a socialist hellhole as pawns, DeSantis!

[JesseAz]

<10% valid asylum claim rate.

You truly are an idiot Mike

[Mother's Lament]

And a liar. He knows it's not true.

[Mike Laursen]

Hey, it’s the ankle biting tag team!

[JesseAz]

You understand that those who don't have me muted realize this makes you look more retarded right?

[Ersatz]

...well ... more like a dishonest hack.
The mentally retarded come by their deficits honestly.

[JohannesDinkle]

They all signed waivers agreeing to a free trip to Martha's Vineyard - so giving someone a free airplane trip is abuse. They got sent to New England for free and seemed happy to have arrived there.
Things are so much better in Eagle Pass, where life is perfect.
Even the Democrat mayor of El Paso is bussing them to New York.

[Mike Laursen]

Signed under fraudulent circumstances.

[JesseAz]

Wrong. The media literally has the material given them you retarded autist fuck.

All you do is push leftist narratives here.

[ElvisIsReal]

Immigrants can't possibly know what's good for them! Only Mike knows!

[Mike Laursen]

Sure, this is about me.

[Ersatz]

Isn't that what you wanted?... more 50 cent payments I suppose, though I'm not sure how that kind of thing is earned.
You and your crew here certainly do 'get the clicks' from the other regular posters futile attempts to make you admit your dishonesty.
The only possible good that could come of that project is the counterpoint to your obfuscations and lies that can serve others when they are confronted with such a brazen assault on reality. I've been lurking long enough to have seen enough of these back-and-forths to be more vexed by the responses you generate than by you [hence you not being muted].

[chem-jongjeff radical communist]

Post your address Mike, we will get it to the TX/FL governors so they can bus/fly the 'migrants' to your crib!

[Mike Laursen]

That has always been such a weak argument. Allowing people freedom of travel and employment is about not getting in the way of their trying to have a better life. It isn’t about any one person solving all their problems.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

They were manipulated and exploited. DeSantis and crew took desperate powerless migrants and bribed them in order to use them in his stunt. And you see nothing wrong with this because it embarrasses the tribe that you don't like.

[chem-jongjeff radical communist]

the only people manipulated/exploited are SB2's victims.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Gee, that makes two socialist hellholes these poor people have escaped from.

[Mike Laursen]

Texas ain’t that bad…

[Anastasia Beaverhausen]

How is someone commenting in a libertarian publication about "legal" immigration and "legally holding a job"? If you're a real actual Libertarian, you shouldn't have your panties in a wad about whatever silly rules the Federal Department of Silly Laws cook up.

[R Mac]

Sure, let’s get rid of all the other un-libertarian laws, including welfare, public education, and income taxes. Then open the borders.

Sound good?

[Tony]

You have been explained this millions of times. Young immigrants, who pay taxes into these programs, only help sustain them. An aging population that kicks out all the immigrants is one that can't sustain a safety net as well.

Is this when "libertarianism" gets to why we have to force *cough*white*cough women to give birth against their will too?

[JesseAz]

If they are such a net economy benefit why are leftist areas crying emergency?

[Tony]

What is a leftist area and which ones are crying emergency more than DeSantis and Abbott?

[Mike Laursen]

Most of the commenters here are conservatives, not libertarians.

[JesseAz]

To a leftist socialist fuck everyone looks conservative.

[Tony]

They are asylum seekers who came legally.

But I'm sure you'll believe whatever you want to believe. You people seem to think you have that privilege for some reason.

[JesseAz]

Fraudulently applying for asylum on false claims taught to them by leftist NGO groups.

Asylum claims are under 10% valid the last 5 years.

[damikesc]

"They are asylum seekers who came legally."

Venezuela ain't next door to the USA, therefore, they are not here legally by international law.

[DesigNate]

This has been explained to Tony many times.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Fiona is still trying to stop crying after her bestest friend called from MV to unload about the horror that was happening down the street from daddy's summer house.

[JasonAZ]

You know, this is pretty consistent with progressive's overall thinking. They're always happy to spend other people's money on things, but not their own. Polls and studies consistently find that conservatives give more of their own money and time to charity than progressives.

Same with this situation. Virtue signal that you support illegal immigration because it's thousands of miles away and affecting your political opponents. But when it shows up at your door, suddenly it's an overwhelming problem; despite being a micro-fraction of the issue that your icky conservative opponents deal with every day.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

" Polls and studies consistently find that conservatives give more of their own money and time to charity than progressives. "

If you consider churches to be charities, sure. But if you consider churches to be freeloading entertainment venues for the gullible, with coffee shops, babysitting services, shitty faux rock bands, summer camps, and the like . . . not so much.

[Briggs Cunningham]

If you are a bigoted angry idiot who can’t get over his failed small time journalism career, you probably do think that. Normal people not so much

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Perhaps Artie was alway beat up as a kid.

[R Mac]

He was.

[Hank Ferrous]

Not often enough as an adult, I would wager.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

It's instructive how the left had an absolutely brain-bending meltdown when GOP-led states started bringing the border home to them.

[thompsoe85]

You have a point. The sanctuary areas complain bitterly that we don't let enough illegal immigrants in. El Paso gets 1400 a week with little help. New York, Chicago, Washington DC freak out over a few hundred each and scream "humanitarian crisis". WTF is it at the border towns that have it thousands of times worse?

Those sanctuary cities should be asking to be sent more illegal immigrants...

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

What about pictures of them “in cages”? Reason totally bought that narrative

[Cyto]

You guys have become completely embarrassing

Lord help, let's hope that headline doesn't match the content.

In case it does, have some reality to go with your hypocrisy

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/15/987618530/why-the-u-s-government-is-dropping-off-migrants-in-rural-arizona-towns

[ElvisIsReal]

I'll never know, because no transcript.

[Anastasia Beaverhausen]

Are your ears broken?

[ElvisIsReal]

Just my sense of self-worth that won't allow me to spend at least 46 minutes listening to Reason.

[JasonAZ]

Cyto, it's okay with feds/progressives do it because, we'll, just STFU you racist Trumpista.

[Aloysious]

It's the best they're capable of.

[Dillinger]

um ... eggs & omelets, people

[ElvisIsReal]

Let's ignore the fact that there never seems to be an omlette at the end of the egg-breaking.......

[Dillinger]

exactly.

[Briggs Cunningham]

The libertarian moment is a homeless bum taking a shit on your lawn and leaving his dirty needle on your driveway.

[bobby oshea]

[chuckle]

[R Mac]

What are scrambled eggs, chopped liver?

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Uh, omelettes are only served in the elite dining room. What color wrist band do you have?

[Nemo Aequalis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvggevL_1OE

[Cyto]

Ooh... where were you guys posturing on the fake "whipping migrants" story? Don't remember a bunch of concern over the giant crowd of props.

[Inquisitive Squirrel]

Yeah, this is a really good point.

[Mother's Lament]

Yup.

[Ben_]

Reason features people as props (also known as subjects) for their articles all the time.

Reason is happy with government flying or bussing migrants around. If they can be sent other places, why not Martha’s Vineyard?

(Because Reason knows Martha’s Vineyard is exclusive and Reason plays into that. Reason is ok with sending migrants to NYC or Chicago. Martha’s Vineyard is too privileged and Reason agrees it will stay migrant-free.)

[Briggs Cunningham]

Small towns across the country, including my hometown, have been overrun with illegal immigrants destroying the quality of life for everyone who lived there. Reason didn't give a shit about those people. They are just eggs for the big, Libertarian, gay, transgender omelet. Martha's Vineyard? The Kochs have a house there. The staff have parents who know people who have houses there and sometimes even invite the staff to come. Sudderman and McArdle vacation there. That is different.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Small towns are dying, and deserve to die, largely because the depleted human residue that remains in them after years of bright flight are a concentrating pool of economic inadequacy, superstition, ignorance, bigotry, dysfunction, and inbreeding. The losers still left in those towns are gullible enough to consider street pills, faith healers, tobacco, bigotry, revival meetings, guns, lottery tickets, off-brand 30-packs, backwater religious schools, more bigotry, more guns, sketchy disability claims, and Donald Trump to be solutions to their largely self-inflicted problems.

Those can't-keep-up backwaters can't empty fast enough.

Carry on, clingers.

[Briggs Cunningham]

I am sorry life turned out so badly for you. It was explained to me on another thread you are some kind of retired editor from BFE Pennsylvania. I am sorry. But just because you are a loser doesn’t mean everyone who ever lived in a small town is. Maybe if you would take some responsibility for your failed life, you wouldn’t have ended up being a bitter loser.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

You know that person that just about everyone in a small town thinks is an idiot and a pest? That's Artie.

[Briggs Cunningham]

He is such an ignorant hateful asshole. You almost feel sorry for him. I can’t see Artie living a very happy life

[MT-Man]

He names himself after anime characters I'm sure he's a winner.

[Anastasia Beaverhausen]

There is not a single town in the US that has been "overrun with illegal immigrants". None.

[Briggs Cunningham]

Just every town on the border. But don’t worry about what is actually happening. Be ignorant. Life is better that way

[JesseAz]

Ajo arizona. Ignorant fuck. Completely decimated their social services.

[This Is The Zodiac Speaking]

Garlic, Arizona?

[JesseAz]

Border Patrol agents have arrested almost 100,000 illegal immigrants so far this year in the county, which, including Del Rio, has fewer than 50,000 residents. The county shares 110 miles of border with Mexico.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/06/13/border-town-of-del-rio-blames-biden-for-flood-of-illegal-immigrants/

[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

Martha's Vinyard?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Small towns across the country, including my hometown, have been overrun with illegal immigrants destroying the quality of life for everyone who lived there.

Right. Illegal Immigrants = Scapegoats

[Ersatz]

If Scapegoats = drain on local resources caused by dumping illegal alien welfare cases into town (and the occasional criminal)

[JesseAz]

Jeff loves illegals so much he wants to keep them in border towns and underpasses.

[Overt]

"Because Reason knows Martha’s Vineyard is exclusive and Reason plays into that. "

No. The problem is that it is a very effective message against the open borders types. They have been fine tut-tutting at the border states daring to object to these open borders. And now that the border states are exposing the NIMBY attitudes of the people in New York, DC, and elsewhere, Reason has to find a reason why it isn't acceptable.

[Briggs Cunningham]

Sort of like how Reason never bothers to notice the huge surges in crime that occur whenever a jurisdiction is dumb enough to eliminate cash bail, just like reason claims they want to happen.

Reason really isn't big on explaining and considering the actual results of the policies they claim to support. Fantasy, denial, and obfuscation are their moves.

[JesseAz]

The open borders narrative reason presents is a costless open borders. As long as illegal immigrants costs are kept in a few states they can continue the narrative. After bankrupt towns in the SW? Those towns have gone bankrupt before.

As soon as costs are shown and sent nationwide, support for the narrative falls as the veil is removed.

The majority of Latinos do not support open borders. They have seen the costs. This is now being shown to elitist enclaves.

[middlefinger]

I’m a bit more cynical. federal grants to sanctuary cities. The money is going somewhere? , definitely not going to care for migrants.

[Social Justice is neither]

I'm more cynical. By denying enforcement and forcing the costs onto red areas the Democrats classically force those areas into a choice, turn blue for support or bankrupt yourself. The busses and flights offer a third way, of forcing blue "sanctuary" areas to live by their own propaganda.

[Tony]

The only people who are for "open borders" are a handful of committed ideologues, and libertarians should be first among them, what with their purported belief in individual freedom and small government.

The rest is a straw man you are using to justify hurting people. Either learn what the Democratic party and mainstream liberals support or stop basing your big-government desires on a reaction to things that aren't real.

[JesseAz]

End welfare first and you'd have a libertarian view. But you've openly advocated for freedom from work, living off others.

[Bill Dalasio]

Border states have been complaining for more than a decade that they're being overrun with the pace of illegal immigration. The only response they've gotten from the cosmopolitan political class is "Shut the hell up and deal with it. Because you're a racist if you have any problem with unlimited immigration." And, yes, that cosmopolitan political class includes the staffers here at Reason. Well, if it's not a legitimate problem, there shouldn't be any complaints about moving these immigrants to sanctuary jurisdictions. But, even a tiny sliver (I believe NYC has had as many sent to them as a border town with a population of 35,000 has had to deal with in a single week.) of what the border states have to deal with on a daily basis is getting the cosmopolitan left in a lather about a crisis. Until the cosmopolitan class is ready to have a conversation that consists of anything more than insults and passing the buck on the consequences of their policies, I'd recommend the border states continue shipping the migrants on to them.

[Briggs Cunningham]

And, yes, that cosmopolitan political class includes the staffers here at Reason.

Includes is a strong word. More like the retarded cousins that still get invited to family reunions but we will go with includes. Sure.

[Briggs Cunningham]

If migrants are people not props, then why is sending them to places that claim to be sanctuaries for them wrong? It seems to me reason should be all about sending migrants to sanctuary cities. Better a sanctuary city that wants them then a city that doesn't and will turn them into the feds right?

Gee, you mean maybe these cities don't want them? Well knock me over with a feather.

The states of Florida and Texas need to set up a joint migrant settlement office next door to reason in DuPont Circle. I am sure the reason staff will be ecstatic about that prospect right?

[JesseAz]

Fiona was told not to write that article.

[CharlesWT]

The poor residents of Martha’s Vineyard were shocked and confused. They had never seen people like that before without leaf blowers and lawnmowers...

[Briggs Cunningham]

Jokes about Martha's Vineyard will never stop being funny. They are like chimps in suits, always a sure laugh. What a bunch of fucking clowns.

[Mike Laursen]

Nice narrative, but what actually happened is they fed them pizza and gave them a place to sleep. So, not exactly overwhelmed.

[damikesc]

"Nice narrative, but what actually happened is they fed them pizza and gave them a place to sleep."

...then kicked their asses out within 44 hrs.

[JesseAz]

If this is the precedent Mike wants to set, give each illegal immigrants a box of pizza, a cot for the night, then kick them out the country.

[Longtobefree]

Yep. They needed to be sure the national guard could find them to run them out of town.

[Mother's Lament]

Ohhh, pizza. So generous and compassionate.
Was that before or after the "sanctuary" called the National Guard on their asses?

[JesseAz]

And then set up a GoFundMe that raised 30k for the impoverished community of MV.

[Cronut]

I'm not listening to this garbage, but if anyone does, please let me know if they address AOC fake crying in front of a parking lot, while pretending to be looking at "kids in cages."

[R Mac]

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say no.

[Mother's Lament]

I want to know which Reasonista wrote this week's "Weekly Listener Question".

Was it White Mike tier?

[mad.casual]

If migrants are suddenly not props, then all the policy debates, including the one from Reason, over the last decade or two have just been theater.

Relevantly exiting stage left is just a figment of your imagination, man!

[Briggs Cunningham]

Migrants are not props. Unless they are kids in cages in a picture taken two years before anyone noticed or cared.

[mad.casual]

Migrants are not props. That's why we decisively solved the immigration problem under Reagan and didn't have any other immigration problems until Trump.

DeSantis the bombastic, malevolent Great And Powerful Oz. Pay no attention to both teams pulling levers behind the curtains.

[Briggs Cunningham]

He is worse than Trump. I wonder how long before reason publishes the "Trump wasn't so bad and DiSantis is worse" article. I give it six months tops.

[mad.casual]

I give it six months tops.

Do we have to put a specific time frame on it or can I guess that the article's already written and waiting for the nanosecond after Trump says he isn't running?

[ElvisIsReal]

This is the correct answer.

[Briggs Cunningham]

I think it is whichever comes first

[Longtobefree]

Have you forgotten the election is only 50 days away?

[Mother's Lament]

"If migrants are suddenly not props"

Definitely not. AOC managed to weep at the sight of an empty parking lot with no illegals even there.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

Well done, Koch-funded libertarians. Keep delivering those denunciations of your billionaire benefactor's arch-nemesis Ron DeSantis.

Let's aim for at least 5 anti-DeSantis articles per day until Biden's DOJ convicts him of HUMAN TRAFFICKING Brown bodies. To Martha's Vineyard.

#LizCheney2024

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

Suggested assignments:

Shackford can write about how DeSantis literally made it illegal to say "gay" in the state of Florida.

Fiona can write essentially the same column dozens of times saying "The Martha's Vineyard thing proves the US needs open borders" just like she's repeatedly submitted the same column saying "Russia invading Ukraine proves the US needs open borders."

ENB can warn us that a President DeSantis probably would not support federally funded elective third trimester abortion — which would mean we'd literally be living in The Handmaid's Tale.

#SoMuchMaterial

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Need something for Sullum. I know his bailiwick is informing the unwashed that the 2020 election was the greatest ever (!). But surely he has something to contribute to the #lizcheney2024 effort. Yes, he frequently expresses his creepy masturbatory fantasies about her. But it's time to shift into full anti Disantis mode.

[Stuck in California]

Sullum is a big stoner, isn't he? He could scare monger because Desantis doesn't like the smell of marijuana.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

And we still have Mexicans and butt sex. He could remind us that Republicans want to put gay people in chains. I think. Well they want to put somebody in chains.

[R Mac]

“No, There isn’t any reason to believe that the 2024 election won’t be the cleanest election in history”.

[IceTrey]

They're criminals.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Man, IceTrey. Whether I agree or disagree with any given point you make, I really appreciate how terse you are.

[Longtobefree]

Like I always had to tell my staff about writing for management; "Short, declarative sentences in the active voice. No more than three syllables to a word."

[IceTrey]

Gracias.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

A gift of brevity.

[Overt]

Assuming these migrants are traveling of their own free will, Reason needs to come up with a better critique.

This, "People aren't Props" is the type of emotional garbage one expects from Teen Vogue, not Reason. These migrants came to the United States of their own volition. They got on buses and planes to other states of their own volition. They are not props, because they are acting of their own free will. (Let's set aside accusations of lying- if someone is defrauding these immigrants, they should be held accountable. That doesn't add or remove from the moral case on busing immigrants.)

Is the busing program a PR stunt? Of course it is. That doesn't make it immoral. Or is it immoral when McDonalds hosts parents of cancer children on their property? Is it immoral when lawyers defend clients pro-bono for publicity?

The fact is that the Biden administration has done worse than restrictionists: they have signaled an open borders policy abroad, while doing nothing to address illegal immigration. If it is wrong for DeSantis and Abbot to induce immigrants to go to Sanctuary Cities that have specifically messaged that they welcome immigrants, then it is even MORE wrong for the Biden Administration to induce immigrants to go to states that expressly do not want them there.

[R Mac]

“This, "People aren't Props" is the type of emotional garbage one expects from Teen Vogue, not Reason.”

Speak for yourself, it’s exactly what I’ve come to expect from Reason.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

"People aren't Props" is the type of emotional garbage one expects from Teen Vogue, not Reason.

It is what one would expect from people who are humanists first and foremost. It is what one would expect from people who view the primary purpose of an ideology is not about deciding on the best tax rates or the optimal number of regulations, but instead upholding the dignity and self-worth of all people. ALL people, not just citizens. ALL PEOPLE. Because ALL PEOPLE are endowed with inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (I think I read that somewhere).

Is the busing program a PR stunt? Of course it is. That doesn't make it immoral. Or is it immoral when McDonalds hosts parents of cancer children on their property? Is it immoral when lawyers defend clients pro-bono for publicity?

I disagree. It depends on the motivations of the ones performing the stunt. If the cancer doctors or the pro bono lawyers said "I really don't give a shit about your cancer or your legal case, I am only doing this for the fame and the money that would accrue to me, and whether you live or die, whether you rot in jail or not, is really of no concern to me", then the stunt absolutely would be immoral. Because in this case the doctors and the lawyers would be exploiting the desperate situation of kids suffering from cancer, or people facing difficult criminal accusations, as a way to gain themselves personally. They are deliberately using the suffering of others to personally benefit. That is the immoral part. And that is what DeSantis et al. are doing here. They are taking poor desperate powerless migrants - who, by the way, didn't even come from Florida - and manipulating and exploiting their desperation to benefit politically. He doesn't give a shit about these migrants, they weren't even causing problems in his own state. He is using poor desperate people for the purposes of his own political ambitions. That is wrong.

The fact is that the Biden administration has done worse than restrictionists: they have signaled an open borders policy abroad, while doing nothing to address illegal immigration.

Oh Good Lord. Put down the right-wing talking points. The only differences between Biden and Trump are: (1) he isn't building the stupid pointless wall, which was never going to work anyway; (2) he ended the Remain In Mexico policy which was an illegal violation of international treaty ANYWAY, and (3) he isn't deliberately separating kids from parents as punishment for migrating. Nothing else has changed. He's still giving money to border agents to round up penniless Guatemalans and put them in camps. The migrants that DeSantis' agents picked up in San Antonio were there because Biden's DHS apprehended the migrants and stuck them in a shelter while their asylum claims are being processed. That's not exactly the libertarian ideal of 'open borders'.

then it is even MORE wrong for the Biden Administration to induce immigrants to go to states that expressly do not want them there

When has Biden "induced" anyone to come here? By not being deliberately mean to them? By actually following international laws and treaties instead of ignoring them?

[Overt]

"It is what one would expect from people who are humanists first and foremost."

No it is the response of someone making appeals to emotion rather than fact. And it is HILARIOUS that you pretend to be humanist while supporting a narrative that denies human agency, and renders immigrants down to victims incapable of making decisions for themselves.

"I disagree. It depends on the motivations of the ones performing the stunt. If the cancer doctors or the pro bono lawyers said "I really don't give a shit about your cancer or your legal case, I am only doing this for the fame and the money that would accrue to me, and whether you live or die, whether you rot in jail or not, is really of no concern to me", then the stunt absolutely would be immoral."

Notice that you have to twist the action in order to turn it immoral. You went from "defending the person pro bono for publicity" to "poorly defending them for publicity". This is more emoting. Poorly representing a person is poorly representing someone. Representing someone well is representing someone well. It would be moral for a person to competently represent a client pro-bono, even if their motive was personal gain, just as it would be immoral for me to say, "I am not a lawyer but I'll represent you because my motives are pure."

I have noticed this is a huge blind spot with you, by the way. You bend over backwards to impute bad motives for people on the right- that way you don't have to argue with their actions, you just have to dismiss them as racists or bigots or charlatans. And when people criticize the actions of the left, it is not unheard of to see you defending them with, "Well at least they mean well".

"They are deliberately using the suffering of others to personally benefit."

This is absurdly wrong, and explains just how morally confused you always seem to be. If I treat a cancer patient, I am not using their suffering. I am literally ameliorating it. Whether I get a personal benefit out of the task- through money paid, or publicity earned, a ticket to heaven, or happy feels in my heart- I have provided them a benefit.

"They are taking poor desperate powerless migrants - who, by the way, didn't even come from Florida - and manipulating and exploiting their desperation to benefit politically."

Again, you are trying to conflate issues of deceit with the busing. Fraud is wrong and if someone manipulated someone through lying, then that specific untruth should be condemned.

But there is nothing morally wrong with saying, "Look, we don't want you here, but this town and its leaders have made it abundantly clear they want you there. I'll even pay your ticket."

Actually, let me rephrase that. If it is wrong to induce someone to travel to a 3rd party jurisdiction without that 3rd party's consent, then it is always wrong- even when immigration activists, the federal government, or family do so. These activists aren't telling immigrants that a significant portion of the country doesn't want them there. They are not telling them that by crossing federal borders they are breaking the law. Indeed, the biggest tragedy of all is that the Biden administration is inducing millions upon millions of foreigners to come to the states in a way that will make them pawns. He is not fixing the immigration system- he is indicating that they will be welcomed, while leaving them in a legally perilous position that could change under any administration.

"Nothing else has changed."

This is absurd. Please tell me why the number of border crossings have skyrocketed- even above pre-pandemic levels. Surely you are not going to deny that Biden administration policies are not a part of that?

[JesseAz]

What jeff doesn't mention... these migrants were largely homeless in an overrun town dealing with thousands of illegal immigrants. They were asked of they wanted to flown elsewhere. They said yes. They were given hotels, showers, foods. They were given packets of where they were going along with numbers to the social services the areas they were sent to are publicized on their websites.

At each step of the way they were asked if they wanted to continue. There was no deception. The packets have now been posted in multiple media reports. The entire process has been outlines.

Jeff continues to rely on the lies and leftist narratives. He doesn't care about the homeless illegal immigrants. He supports MV kicking them out in 48 hours. He does not decry the leftist NGO groups south of the border teaching illegal immigrants how to make false asylum claims or promising them jobs. The very things he accuses DeSantis of he ignores from NGO groups and coyotes prior to illegal entry.

Jeff is just a leftist defender. His only concern is how to harm the right. The immoral motivations he claims of others are his own. He shows this thread after thread.

[Social Justice is neither]

Jeff is literally using the suffering of others for his personal (political) gain, a thing he purports to find horrific when only one side does so. He's an amoral leftist with no argument beyond whatever he thinks will win whether true or not, whether he believes it or not.

[TommyD2000]

This. These articles never address the alternative, which is that the immigrants stay in a border town (likely overwhelmed). They don't ask whether that is better or worse than the destination. They also don't address the free will which means they implicitly argue the immigrants MUST stay in the border towns/states. And then they just skip over the part that immigrants are shuttled all over the country by the Federal government or, you know, on greyhound since the immigrants have free will and final destinations in mind. Buying someone a ticket and telling people about it is hardly the most important part of this story.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I am stating a premise for what a successful ideology must entail. It must uphold the dignity and self-worth of all people. Do you disagree? Yes or no? Are you in favor of an ideology that does not do that? If you do not like the premise, then state your own competing premise.

Notice that you have to twist the action in order to turn it immoral.

No, Overt. I answered exactly the question that you posed. You asked:

Is it immoral when lawyers defend clients pro-bono for publicity?

And I answered: It depends on the motivation of the lawyer.

You asked a question. I answered. I didn't "twist" anything. If you don't like the answer, maybe you should ask different questions.

Are you going to actually address my answer instead of complain about my biases? This is a type of ad-hominem, to shift the discussion away from the topic and towards the individual instead. You think I am acting in bad faith. Okay, so even if your assumption is correct, how is my *argument* incorrect? You never addressed that, you instead wanted to avoid the argument and talk about what a terrible person I am instead.

So maybe you want to discuss the argument instead of the person now?

It would be moral for a person to competently represent a client pro-bono, even if their motive was personal gain,

Not necessarily. If the lawyer's interests do not align *at all* with the client's interests, then that is exploitation, even if the representation is competent.

Here is another example. Suppose you are stranded on the side of a desolate road, and I drive by and offer to give you a ride - in exchange for $1,000,000. Surely the market value of this trip is far less than $1,000,000. I am not genuinely seeking to help you get to your destination. I am not charging you a fair rate even considering the inconvenience to me. I am instead using your desperation to make as much profit as I can at your expense. I would be exploiting you in this scenario. I would be still exploiting you even if I were a competent driver and delivered you safely to your destination.

Furthermore, exploitation can also come in the form of humiliation and the loss of human dignity, rather than through money. If instead I offered to give you a ride, but only in exchange for your consent to post humiliating pictures of you on the Internet, that would also be a type of exploitation even if no money changed hands. Because here, the cost is in terms of human dignity. And a *humanist* places great value in human dignity. It is not mere emoting. Humanism is placing great value on what really matters - the individual human being.

just as it would be immoral for me to say, “I am not a lawyer but I’ll represent you because my motives are pure.”

That is immoral but for a different reason - because it is fraud to represent oneself as competent in the practice of any profession when one is not, regardless of the purity of motives.

I have noticed this is a huge blind spot with you, by the way. You bend over backwards to impute bad motives for people on the right- that way you don’t have to argue with their actions, you just have to dismiss them as racists or bigots or charlatans. And when people criticize the actions of the left, it is not unheard of to see you defending them with, “Well at least they mean well”.

Actually, you are the one who has a blind spot. You read an argument from me, or sarc, or Mike, or Tony, or someone else who is outside of your tribe, an argument which is quite often critical of Team Red (since we're outside your tribe after all), and instead of engaging in the argument substantively, you retreat to the ad-hominem fallacy of "he's just imputing bad motives and calling people names!". YOU are the one using ad hominem to dismiss valid arguments, not me. An argument can still be valid even if it does not assume good motives on the part of Team Red, and I am not obligated to assume good motives in the first place. Why should I?

This is absurdly wrong, and explains just how morally confused you always seem to be. If I treat a cancer patient, I am not using their suffering. I am literally ameliorating it. Whether I get a personal benefit out of the task- through money paid, or publicity earned, a ticket to heaven, or happy feels in my heart- I have provided them a benefit.

It depends on the level of benefit vs. the alignment of the doctor's goals with those of the patient's. Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as exploitation?

This is absurd. Please tell me why the number of border crossings have skyrocketed- even above pre-pandemic levels. Surely you are not going to deny that Biden administration policies are not a part of that?

It is not my job to prove your argument for you. You are the one positing a cause and effect relationship. So, go prove it.

[DesigNate]

“It depends on the motivation of the lawyer.”

No, it doesn’t. That’s some idiotic moral relativism.

[I, Woodchipper]

Every three articles on Reason is about this utterly insipid topic.

De Santis broke your brains. It's amazing to watch.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

It is well known that Reason.com's benefactor Charles Koch wants the GOP to return to its early 2000s neocon era. A Liz Cheney 2024 nomination would almost single-handedly accomplish this. And DeSantis is the only person standing in Cheney's way (since Drumpf is going to prison because of the documents scandal).

Far from having "broken brains," Koch-funded libertarians are behaving quite rationally.

#CheapLaborAboveAll

[Fats of Fury]

Jackson Hole needs migrants.

[middlefinger]

ROFLMAO- this is perhaps your best work
#LizCheney2024
#DeSantisLiterallyHitler

[JesseAz]

AEI is celebrating Cheney as speaker for their constitution day celebration.

[Nemo Aequalis]

Considering most of us will never get to visit Martha's Vineyard, let alone get a free flight there, especially as a reward for breaking the law, kind of leaves the howls of outrage ringing a bit hollow...

[Gaear Grimsrud]

To be fair, Trump had already broken their brains so they had a preexisting condition.

[Social Justice is neither]

Please, their brains were broken long before DeSantis or even Trump, they were just the shifts required to fully expose the corruption.

[mad.casual]

"People aren't Props" is the type of emotional garbage one expects from Teen Vogue, not Reason.

The last article had a line about how the flight from FL to MA was exploiting immigrants at their most vulnerable. It's been said for a long time that Reason is just a libertarian lifestyle magazine. At this point, between the specific and overt lack of defense of Constitutionality, ideological diversity, scientific integrity, etc., the advocacy that stoners aren't lazy, the persistent nonsense on borders in the absence of public spending reform, the oblique support of pedophilia and virgin sacrifices, it's no longer even a libertarian lifestyle magazine. It's just a lifestyle magazine.

Reason Magazine - Free Mind and Free Markets Smoke pot. Wear a mask. Neuter your kids. Eat at Taco Trucks.

[Stuck in California]

Buttsex. You forgot the buttsex in your tagline.

[Vernon Depner]

Buttsex is temporarily suspended due to Monkey Pox.

[Mother's Lament]

It's still okay as long as you remain six feet apart.

[Stuck in California]

CDC says so.

Just consider having sex with your clothes on, masterbate together from a distance, or just have virtual sex with no in person contact.

It would not be nearly as funny if it wasn't true.

Their advice to the most promiscuous population short of a troop of bonobos is to emulate the sex scene from Demolition Man.

[mad.casual]

Buttsex has been subsumed by neuter your kids. Actual libertarians might question in what universe buttsex has even the slightest iota of sociopolitical overlap, libertarian or otherwise, with neutering your kids, this is not that universe.

[SIV]

If I was dead broke, didn't speak the majority language and was stuck in a "shelter" in San Antonio I'd love a free late-Summer trip to the New England Coast. Shit, they don't have anything else to do and I bet they get free stuff and some pocket money everytime they move to a new "shelter". Hell, they may even meet some Venezuelan immigrants who can help them out, or at least give them some tips on livin' in the USA. I never thought tREASON would come out AGAINST the "free movement of people". Fuckin' hypocrites. Fly 'em to DC and tell them to crash the Happy Hour.

[jubalharshaw]

Enjoy "Firefly" and it's follow on movie, "Serenity." Great sci-fi western with serious libertarian overtones, it is very well done. Too bad the networks screwed it over in the original broadcast timing.

[IceTrey]

Fox it was Fox.

[Inquisitive Squirrel]

The amount of hysteric outrage from the "betters" in our society over this is just astounding. I mean 50 people get sent to rich, smug, white, progressive MV and you would think a hurricane decimated a community. Which, ironically is occurring in two places right now that is not even garnering as much media attention.

I mean, has there ever been a better example then this matter to show how politics and news in this country is nothing but superficial, hollow, meaningless, lazy righteous scolding and gotcha-isms?

[Mike Laursen]

Your complaint is that DeSantis’ publicity stunt got a lot of publicity?

[Mother's Lament]

That's not what he said Mike. Stop trying to twist things.

[Ersatz]

You have to understand - he inhabits a universe best explained by silly-string theory.
His entire reality is twisted up!

[bobby oshea]

If the headline matches the podcast commentary, then it seems a good time for this link which might well capture the Editor's thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzZhi4QR34c

[Mother's Lament]

Too coherent, not enough orangemanbad.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

We're on to Floridamanbad.

[Hank Ferrous]

Gillespie grew a beard?

[Reshufflex]

No worries. Martha’s Vineyard is an island of majestic equality. It forbids millionaire residents and impoverished migrants to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets or to steal a loaf of bread {H/T Anotole F).

[Mike Laursen]

Let’s see. Where did DeSantis live before moving into a he governor’s mansion. I’m sure he’s not of the same wealthy, out-of-touch class as those snooty people in Martha’s Vineyard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_Vedra_Beach,_Florida

“Ponte Vedra Beach is a wealthy unincorporated seaside community and suburb of Jacksonville, Florida in St. Johns County, Florida, United States.”

“The area is known for its resorts including the Ponte Vedra Inn and Club, the Lodge and Club, and the Marriott at Sawgrass. It also lies within St. Johns County, which is the wealthiest county in Florida.[2] Ponte Vedra Beach is an upper-income tourist resort area best known for its association with golf and is home to the PGA Tour and the Players Championship.”

[NOYB2]

The difference is that the people of Martha's Vineyard pretend to be welcoming to illegal aliens, while DeSantis is quite honest about not wanting them in his state.

It's the hypocrisy of the residents of Martha's Vineyard that people find offensive, not the fact that the residents are wealthy.

[Reshufflex]

Sorry for saying the same thing 10 minutes later. You said it better, anyway.

[Reshufflex]

You’re being disingenuous. The issue isn’t who’s wealthy. The issue is who’s hypocritical. Desantis never represented himself in any measure as a “sanctuary city” advocate. Obviously.

The phonies in MA-pointing at you Obama- have done nothing but-until the rubber met the road.

[Mike Laursen]

No mention of hypocrisy in your original comment. Just criticizing rich people for lack of equality.

But if we are on the subject of hypocrisy, where did DeSantis’ opposition to socialism go?

[Reshufflex]

Huh? Jesus, man. The hypocrisy is implicit in the edict itself. That’s the whole point of the France’s quote. Reread where they “forbid both millionaires and beggars ( migrants) to sleep under bridges…”

Ah, never mind.

[Mother's Lament]

Mike knows. He just doesn't have an argument and is furious that you're making his team look like idiots, so he's lashing out.

He's cheap like that.

[Reshufflex]

Got it.

[Mike Laursen]

That’s a quote complaining about inequality.

There’s no hypocrisy mentioned except your adding it in in your reading.

The quote says nothing about proclaiming one thing and doing the opposite. It is a straight up quote about poor people getting the short end of the stick, in a blatant manner.

[R Mac]

Lol. You never cease to amaze me.

[Reshufflex]

There never was going to be any “majestic equality” to the law(s). Not ever. It was a ruse, a pretense-and a hypocrisy writ large.

Both rich and poor are forbidden from…”sleeping under bridges, or from begging…” Exactly how many rich folk do you think needed to be forbidden from “begging in the streets”?

Do you think the lawgivers knew that answer beforehand?

[IceTrey]

Isn't the entire state of Florida a tourist resort?

[JesseAz]

Is there a left formed talking point you dont push?

[Mother's Lament]

No, but don't you dare call him a Democrat.

[R Mac]

You went through all the trouble of copy and pasting that link, and writing that post for the purpose of…what exactly?

[Fats of Fury]

NIMBY - bad
NIMVY* - good

* Not In Martha's Vineyard Y'all

[Gaear Grimsrud]

So according to the question of the week Reason has been consistently promoting libertarianism for 45 years while outfits like the ACLU have fallen from grace. I started picking up Reason at a news stand in Hollywood CA in the early 80s. So somewhere around 40 years ago. Paid for the print subscription for many years thereafter. Believe me. Reason is the zombified corpse of what it was. I don't know exactly when the mortal soul was sold to the Koch bros. But it's becoming increasingly evident that Reason contributors are paid to promote a very narrow agenda. And it isn't libertarian.

[John Rohan]

Give us an example of what you are talking about.

[NOYB2]

Migrants Are People, Not Props

Yes, they are people. People who are violating US law. People who cost taxpayers many billions every year. People who should be kicked out of the US under expedited removal if Biden was doing his f*cking job. But Biden isn't doing his f*cking job.

And that's why border states are giving them free tickets out of town, because those illegal aliens are not wanted there. And because those people know that they aren't wanted in border states, they take those tickets and travel to where people say they want them.

[Tony]

So everyone knows you're a Russian troll, right? I feel like I'm late to the joke with you.

[NOYB2]

That's an interesting accusation. Care to elaborate what precisely you mean by "you're a Russian troll"?

[Tony]

Okay, we'll pretend you don't know.

More revelations are coming out about how Russia infiltrated the Women's March and indeed infiltrate many leftists causes online to create tension and have infiltrated every single far-right group in America to stir up extremism and recruitment.

So it stands to reason that some of the regulars here are trolls paid for by the Russian state. I just wonder which ones I've been so sincerely debating this whole time.

[R Mac]

“I've been so sincerely debating”

Nobody believes this bullshit troll.

[JesseAz]

More revelations have come out that the ones paying Russians were Hillary and the Doj.

[NOYB2]

You, Tony, are utterly delusional. I mean lizard-people-flat-earth type delusional.

And, Tony, you have never "debated sincerely" in your life. You are a vile troll, albeit an unpaid one.

[damikesc]

"More revelations are coming out about how Russia infiltrated the Women's March"

Yup, Linda Sarsour is Russia's fault. Clearly.

[kfs]

It's always a publicity stunt when the left is exposed for who they are: Complete and total hypocrites!

[Longtobefree]

Next up for using props:
A 100 yard minefield backed by razor wire and machineguns.
Seeding the Rio Grande with piranha.

I can't wait to see the response to that.

[R Mac]

Have you started a gofundme for your piranha project?

[uncommon wealth]

The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
- Leviticus 19:34

[Ersatz]

now describe the state run social saftey-net in Israel at the time...

[Ersatz]

Oh, and include a comparison to today's version

[Brian]

Migrants are People, Not Props... unless AOC needs a photo op.

[Mother's Lament]

No illegals were actually physically present, so she didn't use them as props. She was just weeping over imaginary people.
Checkmate, conservatives...

[JeremyR]

Which is why they were sent to someplace that welcomes them, or at least says they do.

Why should border states be the only ones that pick up the tab for feeding and housing these people?

[JeremyR]

And that's really the rub. Unlike props, people cost money to house and be feed. It's true some of them might get jobs, but many won't and they will be paid by the taxpayers.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Once upon a time, border areas were vibrant and a bit shady, with fairly porous borders. People and stuff flowed back and forth without much fuss. Then we made it both harder to cross (so once people got in they would not risk trying again) and we made the prize bigger, with entry to a welfare state.

Oops.

[Jefferson's Ghost]

I see Xenophobia is alive and well in the comment section.

[Briggs Cunningham]

I one here is from Martha’s Vineyard as far as I can tell.

[Tony]

So when your stupid little scheme doesn't work out the way it did when it was dreamed up during some FOX News producer's hookers-and-coke binge, you just say the opposite thing happened. You just contradict reality 100%. Okay. But that's not playing by the rules.

The fact is those people were welcomed with impeccable manners, charity, and good will, despite the cynical circumstances. DeSantis beclowned himself; painted the Republican party as petty, cruel, and racist; and likely committed state and federal crimes.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

LOL, the copium in this post is off the charts. It's not even original, just a warmed-over rehash of what other shitlib media outlets are parroting.

[Tony]

Thus what half of America will believe is the truth.

[sarcasmic]

perception is reality

[JesseAz]

This explains your entire ignorant worldview.

[sarcasmic]

And your failing grade in Psychology 101.

[R Mac]

Most honest thing Tony’s ever posted here: shitlib media will repeat bullshit and half the country will believe it.

That gets you all excited, doesn’t it Tony, people believing lies?

[IceTrey]

It was cruel to send refugees to a wealthy sanctuary state? You just said they were welcomed with open arms.

[Get To Da Chippah]

How many of those 50 migrants who were welcomed are still on the island today?

[damikesc]

How many were not removed under threat of military force?

[R Mac]

It’s funny when trolls show up and make some generalized criticism of “the comment section” without actually responding with any substance to any specific comments.

You know you can reply directly to specific comments, right?

[sarcasmic]

Glad you're never pointing fingers. That would make you an asshole.

[R Mac]

Reading comprehension gets harder as the night goes on?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

Wow that was the question they said someone asked? They are writing their own questions.
Weekly listener question 1: why does reason continue to push racial essentialism

[NOYB2]

I see Xenophobia is alive and well in the comment section.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

[Social Justice is neither]

Yes, you're a heartless bigot who demands migrants suffer being around people who don't want them rather than the benighted betters who've declared their cities open and welcoming sanctuaries for them. Thanks for outing yourself.

[sarcasmic]

I'm a migrant you're a migrant he's a migrant she's a migrant wouldn't you like to be a migrant too, be a migrant, drink Dr Pepper...

[JesseAz]

Did you get that from msnbc?

[sarcasmic]

Oh, that's clever. Did you steal that from Hannity or Beck?

[Tony]

On the premise that it's totally libertarian for good Americans to take such a heavy-handed interest in the location of undocumented immigrants:

These people are guilty of no crime. The ones in question aren't even illegal border crossers but asylum seekers fleeing communism. Even if they were illegal border crossers, which they aren't, they still wouldn't be guilty of any crime because they haven't been found so in a court of law yet.

And even if they were found guilty of crimes, since when do the people of a state get to decide where criminals go? At the end of the day, there is no defense that is in the spirit of civilization for one state to ship people accused of wrongdoing to another state to make their problem.

It would be like California deciding it had had enough with Trumpers and sending them all to the bottom of the Grand Canyon or Death Valley or the South Pole. It's a stunt, at best, any way you slice it, and there is no libertarian defense of politicians using taxpayer money to jerk off.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

It would be like California deciding it had had enough with Trumpers and sending them all to the bottom of the Grand Canyon or Death Valley or the South Pole.

I agree that deep blue voting areas are akin to such desolate places. At least there you don't have to worry about getting robbed or stepping in hobo drug addict shit, though.

[Tony]

While I appreciate your many inventive dog-whistles for "black neighborhoods," the fact is some of us have actually been to a major city in our lives.

They're lying to you on FOX News about what they're about. They're great places.

There's a reason all the educated and wealthy people go to major cities and not Varmint Gulch to live, and FOX News is straight up feeding you lies every time you turn it on.

[NOYB2]

There's a reason all the educated and wealthy people go to major cities and not Varmint Gulch to live,

The educated and wealthy people live in wealthy suburbs.

Since the invention of the automobile, cities have been increasingly abodes for the homeless, starving artists, prostitutes, party kids, and drug addicts (with a lot of overlap). The wealthy may maintain a condo to partake in the bacchanalia, but that's certainly not where they like to spend most of their time.

[Tony]

I understand that you have never been to a major American city, but presumably some of the people can get in their car and drive to one.

Although I've heard stories of Trumpers standing in the middle of cities they claimed were burned to the ground during BLM and still insisting that the city they are standing in no longer exists.

[NOYB2]

I understand that you have never been to a major American city

I lived in a couple of "major American cities" for two decades.

I'm also educated and fairly wealthy, so I know how educated and wealthy people live. You obviously don't.

You obviously never outgrew the "starving artist/prostitute/party kid" of your life cycle.

[Tony]

So the people living in the outrageously expensive apartments in every major city are starving artists and party kids?

[NOYB2]

People living in outrageously expensive apartments in every city generally are young, single urban professionals, essentially "party kids". They may earn a few hundred thousand dollars a year, but they aren't wealthy because they are supporting an expensive lifestyle with their income. Of course, there are exceptions: some wealthy people do actually live in cities full time, but most of the wealthy just have a second residence in the city.

[Bill Dalasio]

There's a reason all the educated and wealthy people go to major cities and not Varmint Gulch to live

For the semi-affluent, mostly work. They go to cities (as NOYB2 notes below, they actually live in suburbs) because that's where they can find jobs that support them as semi-affluent. For the genuinely wealthy, you find more of them actually do tend to reside in relatively rural locations. You've never heard of the country home? Horse country?

It's pretty funny how insular the semi-educated and semi-affluent cosmopolitans can prove themselves to be when given the opportunity.

[Tony]

These things are almost definitional. Cities are the defining feature of the rise of human civilization. They're by definition where the wealth is. Humans have lived in "rural" situations since we were banging rocks against each other. Now, rural areas are definitionally the poorest places.

Obviously the very wealthy can have homes in cities or on lakes or on beaches or sometimes they will have farms. That's an extension of what's happening in cities.

The point is this characterization of cities as hellholes is based on the high crime rates of the 90s and is woefully out of date. But as I said, Trumpers actually believe multiple major cities were burned to the ground during the BLM riots, and they'll go on believing it even if they go to a city and stand in it.

These lies are the result of constant exposure to propaganda. That can also be shown by when Trumpers also whine about how Democrats are all rich snobs (in addition to being terrible at governing their gang-infested hellholes). None of this is about anything but the power of a political party.

[NOYB2]

Crime rates have dropped both in cities and in the rest of the country; relative to the rest of the country, cities are still dangerous, disease ridden hellholes. Many cities are also great centers of commerce and innovation, of art, and of higher education. Most conservatives, Republicans and "Trumpers" understand all these realities. It's only people like you who are delusional about the realities of city life because you simply don't know any better.

[damikesc]

"While I appreciate your many inventive dog-whistles for "black neighborhoods," the fact is some of us have actually been to a major city in our lives."

Never viewed SF as a city with a sizable black community but it is the first place I think of when I read "stepping in hobo drug addict shit, though."

Nice of you to come out as a bigot, though. Not surprising.

[DesigNate]

Red Rocks makes a quip about San Francisco and you read it as black neighborhoods. Thanks for proving your complete racism yet again Tony, you really are a horrible human being.

[sarcasmic]

From what I've read most "illegals" have overstayed their visas.

[NOYB2]

These people are guilty of no crime. The ones in question aren't even illegal border crossers but asylum seekers fleeing communism.

Yes, they are illegal border crossers, because they are coming to the US for economic opportunity, not asylum. Fleeing communism is not grounds for asylum.

Even if they were illegal border crossers, which they aren't, they still wouldn't be guilty of any crime because they haven't been found so in a court of law yet.

They are guilty of a crime, they simply haven't been convicted yet.

And even if they were found guilty of crimes, since when do the people of a state get to decide where criminals go?

They don't. They do, however, get to offer free tickets out of state.

It would be like California deciding it had had enough with Trumpers and sending them all to the bottom of the Grand Canyon or Death Valley or the South Pole.

DeSantis used no force or coercion, he provided free tickets. And, in fact, Newsom has done the same thing, given the homeless in San Francisco free tickets to Texas.

[Tony]

Fleeing communism wouldn't be grounds for asylum if it was working perhaps, but they're coming from a shitty situation nevertheless. At any rate, they didn't commit a crime until they're convicted of one in a court of law. We have rules still in the United States, for now.

DeSantis absolutely used a shit ton of coercion and deception and, ironically, is the only player in this story who probably committed a crime.

[R Mac]

“At any rate, they didn't commit a crime until they're convicted of one in a court of law.”

I guess ignoring other people’s responses then just repeating your earlier point is a strategy.

[NOYB2]

Fleeing communism wouldn't be grounds for asylum if it was working perhaps, but they're coming from a shitty situation nevertheless.

Coming from a shitty situation is not grounds for asylum.

At any rate, they didn't commit a crime until they're convicted of one in a court of law.

Whether you have committed a crime is independent of whether you are convicted of it.

But, at any rate, they haven't been treated as criminals, they have been given free tickets out of state and they made a voluntary choice to accept those tickets.

[JohnZ]

By now, it's been confirmed that the government of Venezuela has been emptying the prisons and sending them on their way to our southern border. Much the same that Castro( Justine Trudeau's father) did when he emptied the prisons and sent them to Miami.
So guess how many murderers,child molesters, rapists, drug cartel members, gang bangers and other assorted anti-social types have made their way to every city in the country?
Nice thought isn't it?

[R Mac]

Imagine being so morally bankrupt you have to compare being flown to MV (a proud sanctuary jurisdiction) for free to being dropped down the Grand Canyon to try to make your point.

You’d probably be a sick motherfucker.

[IceTrey]

No you have to apply for asylum at a port of entry.

[John Rohan]

Most of them are guilty of a crime. It's true that it's legal for them to apply for asylum. But it's also illegal to lie about your reasons for asylum. The vast majority of these migrants are fleeing poverty, not political persecution, and their applications will be denied. But they apply anyway, because they have nothing to lose since there are no legal penalties for lying. Also, meanwhile they get to live in the US while they figure out another way to stay here permanently.

[sarcasmic]

Anyone else roast their own coffee? I like medium roast except it has no balls, but dark roast is too burnt. So for my last batch I pulled it soon as first crack was done and second crack was starting. I like it. Next time I'll do medium-dark on purpose.

[Mike Laursen]

Nope. Imagine that smells wonderful, though.

[sarcasmic]

Actually no. It smells terrible while roasting. Like burnt fingernails.

[Utkonos]

“Many institutions seem to have lost their way recently, often due to audience or donor capture. On the left, the ACLU has lost its free speech absolutism and now thinks some speech is not worth protecting. NPR has become a sad, woke, unlistenable parody of its former self. On the right, Katherine's former employer, The Weekly Standard went under when the editors and financial backers went different ways regarding Trump. Reason has been very consistent for the past 50+ years (with the possible exception of that piece by Matt Welch praising France's health care system)”
Gosh, any thoughts on this self-congratory-gram?

[NOYB2]

In fact, none of those institutions have "lost" anything; they have simply been revealed as what they have always been. And that includes Reason.

[Mike Laursen]

Self congratulations are well deserved.

[Social Justice is neither]

Ask people at any of the listed organizations if they think it's changed and their response would be the same as the Reason editors.

[Inbase]

Yes!! I agreed with the reason's opinion about migrants, and the writer's explanation is so nice that one can reach a conclusion about migration.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Migrants are people? No they're not. They are trash that are to be disposed of in someone else's backyard. They are violent criminals, even the children. They are illegal law-breakers even the ones who follow the asylum process legally. It would be better if they were to suffer and die under Maduro's communism than to come to this country in any way shape or form. Isn't that right?

[Get To Da Chippah]

They're people who, by violating immigration law, indicate that they are clearly unwilling to follow the laws of the land they claim the want to live in, and should therefore forfeit their opportunity to do so.

Claiming asylum for reasons that turn out to be a lie is not legal.

It would be better if they followed the immigration laws of the country to which they wanted to relocate.

[NOYB2]

Migrants are people? No they’re not.

Of course migrants are people.

Thieves, trespassers, drug smugglers, child abusers, and Nazis are also people.

What's your point?

[Liberty Lover]

This is the modern tale of two cities:
When the privileged Country Club classes that populate Martha’s Vineyard are made to bear the brutal impacts of their policing it’s “theatre” and a “political stunt.”
When average people in smalltown Texas get flooded with illegal immigrants, that’s just another Tuesday. If they complain to the government that’s supposed to control border crossings, they’re denounced as bigots.

Obviously Reason is with the privileged Country Club classes. I bet not one writer wants illegal settled in their neighborhood.

[Joe Friday]

Note DeSantis did not send the Texas immigrants - WTF? - to Palm Beach or Hilton Head. You do know that there are plenty of GOP leaning rich enclaves, many in Florida. It is undeniable that this was a political stunt - Fox news got the heads up that Massachusetts and it's Republican governor did not get politstunts is what DeSantis has been doing for 4 years. That includes cursing out Biden since 2021 while making public appearances across the state handing out money for small town and county projects Florida got from the Feds. doesn't mention that fact. Meanwhile, Texas gets millions from the feds to help deal with the problem and the feds have a program where they send immigrants to other parts of the country that can better handle them, like LA, ivery blue California.

These are all facts. Stop being a MAGA sucker and deal with them.

[Get To Da Chippah]

The places being targeted are also proud to call themselves 'sanctuaries' that 'stand with immigrants,' right up until immigrants start showing up in numbers that are still a fraction of what border towns have been forced to deal with for years thanks to the policies of the left.

These wealthy places full of leftist snobs love to talk the talk about how much more compassionate they are than icky MAGA hives of scum and villainy, but they were quick to go to hysterics and histrionics when a few dozen brown people unexpectedly showed up to their doorstep rather than walk the walk. According to these morons, a free trip to Martha's Vineyard was a cruel stunt, human trafficking, and a crime against humanity, and comparable to Hitler sending Jews to the gas chambers. Meanwhile, a free pizza and a boat ride to a military base was an act of selfless compassion.

[Joe Friday]

Get,

"Massachusetts is not a sanctuary state, but there have been proposals for it on Beacon Hill. A sanctuary city or state is a location that limits cooperation with federal immigration laws. There are eight cities in the state that are sanctuary cities. They are Amherst, Boston, Cambridge, Chelsea, Concord, Newton, Northampton, and Somerville..."

NYC is a sanctuary city. According to it's mayor yesterday, they have asked Gob Abbott to coordinate with the city on his now many buses sent there so they can prepare, and he has refused. A sanctuary city designation means the location has a policy to not require their police to automatically challenge the legal status of people who don't speak good english. The theory is that this actually stifles cooperation with police as well creating dangerous situations for women and children in health or other trouble.

Remember, Texas - and other states - gets federal funds to help deal with the problem. You can look up Sen Cornyn bragging about how much they got in the last appropriations bill. We might also add that along with Florida, Texas regularly gets bailed out of emergencies like hurricane damage and the cold snap which left most of the state without power a year ago. Should we tell them to pound sand next time?

[MoreFreedom]

Gillespie claiming this technique of sending immigrants to liberal towns isn't helpful towards making this a better country makes little sense. He admits the government hasn't addressed immigration which needs to be overhauled. The Democrats like it the way it is, which "isn't helpful", as demonstrated by Pelosi walking out of a meeting on the subject that Trump was holding.

In fact, this is very helpful, in that it negates the fake news claiming there's no border crisis, it negates the lies from Biden's administration that the border is closed, it puts what Democrats hope are more liberal voters in states in which more liberal votes doesn't help them (negating their strategy of changing the demographics), and it forces liberals to pay for the immigrants they promised to provide free health care and everything they need.

In fact, this "stunt" helps move the government towards thoughtful
immigration reform: reform where we get honest, hard working immigrants who contribute to the country in positive ways, rather than the many negative ways the open border causes.

I want more immigration, because we need it to grow the economy to generate the revenues the government needs to fulfill its promises about Social Security and Medicare. Or we can phase those programs out because we're going broke.

[Joe Friday]

We need comprehensive immigration reform MoreFreedom, and the last time the political leaders got it together to address the problem on a bi-partisan basis was 2013. A bill Obama would have signed passed the Senate with GOP votes but was not allowed up for a vote in the GOP House - where it would almost certainly would have passed - because Boehner killed it.

Since then, Obama arrested an detained more immigrants at the border than any previous or later president, while Trump pulled his stupid and ineffective "wall" strategy and stifled immigration by essentially breaking our own laws which right now include the right of immigrants to legally seek asylum by application (that's who was sent to Marth's VY). Maybe we don't want to still be the beacon for the persecuted and needy of the world - though that's how most of our ancestors got here - including DeSantis who's memory and legacy he has defiled - but if so we need to face that and change the law. If not, we need to define and organize around something that works. DeSantis isn't interested in something that works, unless it works to get him situated for the presidency in 2024 and this latest incident says that loud.

[Uomo Del Ghiaccio]

Migrants Are People, Not Props. However the recent controversy has illustrated that leftists have been using Migrants as Props for decades. The hypocrisy is appalling. Not that I approve of the actions of the right, but objectively reflecting on how long the order states have been dealing with the influx of migrants and how long they have been demonized and had their resources strained this action brings clarity.

The border states are reacting to real conditions that have fallen on deaf ears. To make matters worse the elitist blue states have purposely discounted and actively promoted actions counter to any degree of control while calling the border states racist.

It is a wonder that border state governors waited this long to share the pain. The reaction of the Elitist Leftists reveal who the real racist are or perhaps more of a NIMBY reaction.

While I dislike the Republican party, my eyes are been opened that the Democrat party is indeed worthy of total disdain. While the Republican party is apathetic, the Democrat party feeds off the pain of others, will virtue signal with real solutions, and requires the continued pain to maintain their power.

In short the Democrat party leadership is full of opportunist feeding on the misfortune of others in order to promote their power. The Republican party has it's version of human debris too, but as a whole the Democrat party poses more of a risk than the Republican party.

Neither are worthy of casting a vote for other that an isolated and rare candidate. We are due for the emergence of third parties. I would like every eligible voter to vote and I would like a majority of the eligible votes to vote for some third party.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

NPR has become a sad, woke, unlistenable parody of its former self.

He said waking up from his 7 year long nap.

[MT-Man]

I think Joe F was really triggered by this, in-between his master contractor work.

[Joe Friday]

Here you go MT-Man. Here's an email I sent to architect and clients with one hand, while straightening out MAGA posters here with the other.

Egress windows

All -

The thought just occurred that there still remains a possibility that we may increase the loft floor trusses vertical dimension to accommodate AC ducts - just spoke to Mark .... again and we are going to meet with the truss guy ASAP (I'll let you know when Jim). If we do this, we gain height above the lower roof line and so the window(s) could be lowered to meet the sill clearance without other changes, depending on how much.

[DesigNate]

You straighten out nothing but the crease in your slacks.

[Joe Friday]

Uomo, you ignore the fact that in 2013 a comprehensive immigration bill was passed in the senate with substantial, but minority GOP support and was predicted to pass the House if Boehner would have let it come to the floor - he didn't. The bill had almost universal support among democrats and Obama pledged to sign it. Among it's provisions was more money for enforcement of border security. Republicans mostly objected to it's resolution of the "dreamers" and a path to citizenship for an estimated 12 million illegals if they met and followed the law. Every expert predicted that trying to deport this 12 million was both impossible and not a popular idea with anyone. As it is, Texas and other border states receive federal money to help cover costs while the feds also transport those awaiting asylum hearings to both red and blue states, especially California and LA.

[The Ignorant One]

Uhh, what do you care where they end up if they are in the US now? Sounds like they scammed the system and screwed over legal entrants with the help of a governor.

Piss off.

[Liberty Lover]

Biden invited them here as props. Where was Reason then? Oh, complaining about Trump!

[JohnZ]

The liberal elites on MV gave them some nice cucumber sandwiches and tea then 44 hours later shipped them off to an army base that is also an EPA superfund site. Yup polluted.
It's just that there weren't enough battery powered leaf blowers to go around and most of the hotels no longer needed maids, waiters and bartenders.
Yup, the liberal elites showed the rest of us how compassionate they are.
So why hasn't Joe the Biden been taken to task for transporting hundreds if not thousands of illegals by plane, in the middle of the night, where there was no one around to see them arrive, yet the liberal media says nothing??

[AprilJ]

“Migrants” take from my family and my children and give NOTHING back to me. I don’t owe then anything.
Build the wall and arm it.

[Otis R. Needleman]

These people aren't "migrants". They are ILLEGAL ALIENS and have NO right to be in the USA.