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Free Minds & Free Markets

On Immigration, Bernie Sanders Sounds Like Donald Trump

Says relaxing immigration restrictions is a right-wing Koch plot.

SandersVoxSen. Bernie Sanders calls himself an internationalist democratic socialist, wants a $15 an hour minimum wage, would make college tuition “free,” likes single-payer healthcare… and utterly opposes relaxing stringent immigration laws because that’s something rightwing corporate billionaires support.

The far-left presidential candidate recently elaborated on these views during a sit-down interview with Vox Editor-in-Chief Ezra Klein. A particularly illuminating moment:

Ezra Klein: You said being a democratic socialist means a more international view. I think if you take global poverty that seriously, it leads you to conclusions that in the US are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing ...

Bernie Sanders: Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

Ezra Klein: Really?

Bernie Sanders: Of course. That's a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. ...

Ezra Klein: But it would make ...

Bernie Sanders: Excuse me ...

Ezra Klein: It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn't it?

Bernie Sanders: It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

To his credit, Klein pushed back by pointing out that the poor people of the United States are actually quite wealthy when compared with the poor people of other countries. But Sanders maintained that his first obligation as a senator from Vermont was to defend American workers from the scourge of foreigners taking their jobs.

Sanders is arguing in bad faith, however, to suggest that his opponents—the Koch brothers, among them—want a completely open border. Very few people involved in immigration policy are actively trying to erode all territorial distinctions between the United States and Mexico. Framing the issues this way, as Sanders does, is demagoguery intended to make supporters of a more welcoming immigration system sound crazy.

Sanders has a long history of fighting efforts to reform immigration laws on the grounds that immigrants hurt the economy and depress American workers’ wages. But as Reason’s Shikha Dalmia has long-argued, this view is at odds with the consensus among economists that more immigration is better for the economy, has a positive effect on wages, and creates jobs.

But for “internationalist” socialist Democrat Sanders, hatred of the rich outweighs concern for the material well-being of the world’s poor.

Photo Credit: Vox

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  • WTF||

    So Bernie is not just a socialist, he's a national socialist. You know who else...

  • Notorious G.K.C.||

    You may have posted first, but I had the *idea* first.

  • Tony||

    You're bragging about going straight to Nazis? Isn't that the comments board equivalent of a teenage boy bragging about those tits he likes?

  • Citizen X||

    If the jackboot fits...

  • DenverJ||

    You know who else wore jackboots?

  • Brian||

    Isn't this the part where you're supposed to tell us how stupid Bernie is for buying into right wing bullshit talking points, and failing to understand how immigration contributes to the economy and makes us all better off?

    Or do you reserve such judgement for the John-types alone, out of the pure consistency of it all?

    Because democrats have nothing in their hearts but compassion for the poor and an open, include immigration policy.

  • Tony||

    Yes, that is this part. I don't think he's using rightwing talking points, but he does seem confused. The business sector doesn't like immigration reform, a path to citizenship etc., which is what Democrats are talking about, they like immigration without reform.

  • WTF||

    Tony derp de derp. Derp de derpity derpy derp. Until one day, the derpa derpa derpaderp. Derp de derp da teedily dumb. From the creators of Der, and Tum Ta Tittaly Tum Ta Too, Tony is Da Derp Dee Derp Da Teetley Derpee Derpee Dumb. Rated PG-13.

  • Brian||

    "It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that."

    If you're conceding that the left has is own economic bullshit talking points, then I agree with you.

  • Tony||

    That particular statement is sort of by definition right-wing, and one I don't hear often from liberals. I hear it from libertarians all the time as their excuse for making exceptions to freedom on this issue, though.

  • Brian||

    Funny how that works, isn't it?

    Bernie Sanders, a socialist, says economically illiterate things about immigrants (predominantly non-white and relatively poor) and how they make us (predominantly white and relatively rich) poorer. Therefore, he needs to check his white privilege, and his remarks become right wing, because his remarks obviously reflect implicit racism and a lack of empathy for the poor, and the left would never do that.

    Case closed. Verdict: Bernie Sanders is a racist bigot right-wing socialist.

  • Catatafish & Woodchips||

    Jesus Christ you are a fucking hack, Tony.

  • Chipper Chipping Rodrigue||

    For Tony and other humor-challenged individuals, Godwinning is a decade-spanning injoke 'round these parts.

  • Zeb||

    "National Socialism" is a descriptive term that fits pretty well with what Sanders is promoting here. Sanders is open about being a socialist. And here he is also talking like a nationalist. What the fuck else should you call that combination?

  • DevilDocNowCiv||

    Zeb,

    You're right, of course, and you left out the workers-they want good union (well organized! Lists! Dues!) verkers-er, workers for der-er, the-party. Yes, between the we Repubs who lean libertarian except for our jackbooted anti drug and border cop ideas, and the Dems who want a world state-either de jure or de facto, as long as the orders get obeyed and the dues are collected. Any wonder why both Pauls came to us?

    C'mon, libertarians! Come to our primaries and vote your hearts. Influence us your way, as best you can. Sitting alone in a circle may be fun, but why not join in and actually vote for which of the two who will win, who will be more to your liking?

  • DenverJ||

    Hear hear

  • MariontheLibrarian||

    TOGTFO, Tony.

  • DenverJ||

    You know who else was downright genocidal in his rhetoric?

  • DenverJ||

    Dammit, wrong place!

  • Mickey Rat||

    Kevin D Willamson had that idea last week.

  • Juvenile Bluster||

    Curse your quick fingers.

  • commodious spittoon||

    Britain's working class?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else disliked the British....

  • WTF||

    Napolean?

  • WTF||

    Also Napoleon. Sheesh.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    FDR?

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    The leaders of The People's Democratic Republic of ___________?

  • ProfessorK||

    So.. you are *actually* stupid enough to call a Jew a Nazi?

    Being the first person to display total ignorance is not something to be proud of.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    You have a problem with 'Jewish Nazis for Jesus Motoring Club of America'?

  • BambiB||

    Who knew that Bernie was right on immigration?

    Certainly not Reason.

    Any of you "open border" nuts need to go watch the immigration gum balls.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

    It's so simple, even Robby Soave could understand it...

  • spooz||

    So, being a socialist and believing in national sovereignty doesn't make one a genocidal psychopath. That is something that exists outside of the economic ideology. Only simpletons and propagandists choose to make the connection.

  • Notorious G.K.C.||

    "you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that"

    You know who else was a nationalist socialist?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Hitler?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Oswald Mosley?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Fr Charles Coughlin?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    William Dudley Pelley?

  • Citizen X||

    Every U.S. president since Hoover?

  • Juvenile Bluster||

    So Bernie is both a Socialist and a Nationalist?

    Hmmm.

  • Notorious G.K.C.||

    *That's* original.

  • Juvenile Bluster||

    Both of you beat me by seconds. And I would've beaten you if I hadn't gone back to edit to put "Socialist" before "Nationalist". So I actually beat you! HA!

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else tried to rewrite history....

  • WTF||

    A socialist who was also a nationalist?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else prevented libertarian moments from happening....

  • Libertarian||

    Roughly 98% of everybody.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Hitler?

  • commodious spittoon||

    I tried having a libertine moment, but they weren't into it.

  • Libertarian||

    Winston?

  • Rich||

    Harper Lee?

  • hamilton||

    Donald Trump?

  • Mendelism||

    Mel Brooks?

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    The Doctor?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Bernie Sanders: Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

    Presidential material.

    This makes me wish Harry Reid was running. I wonder what crazy, Koch-obsessed shit he would say on the campaign trail.

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Sanders/Reid '16 - STOP THE KOCHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Homple||

    Kochblocking.

  • Troglodyte Rex||

    Kockplotting

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    I like.... Sanders/Reid '16 KOCHBLOCK!!!!!

  • Devil's Candy||

    I'd prefer a Sanders v. Perot fantasy cage match.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    That would just be 100% pure adrenalin. Rampagin' Reid.

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    I carry no brief for Sanders, but is it that weird that a US Senator would think his obligation is to his constituents or the people of his nation rather than some random third worlders.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    I hear Bernie's a boxer guy anyway. Don't ask me how I know! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

  • PBR Streetgang||

    I don't think that's weird at all, but if you've got anything other than a (D) after your name, saying something like that gets you branded a xenophobic racist who hates poor people of color.

  • kbolino||

    well, it IS in the best interest of his constituents.

    The likelihood that Sanders appreciates the difference between free migration and forced migration is practically nil, and so his ability to represent the best interests of his constituents (as in, all of them, not just some of them) is doubtful.

  • Just say Nikki||

    Weird. Sanders doesn't have a D after his name.

  • Paul.||

    Nope, but he's mighty blue.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    And pinko on the inside!

  • WTF||

    He does caucus with the Ds and vote with the Ds. Is running for the presidential nomination for the Ds. Pretty much a D in all but name. Of course I do realize that technically correct is the best kind of correct.

  • Raven Nation||

    Not weird, but if you're going to position yourself as an international democratic socialist then it's legitimate to challenge an apparent contradiction.

  • kbolino||

    I carry no brief for Sanders, but is it that weird that a US Senator would think his obligation is to his constituents or the people of his nation rather than some random third worlders.

    That's a false dichotomy. There are many immigrants who aren't any more "random" than my cousin or my plumber. Moreover, there are undoubtedly many of Sanders's constituents who want migration to be less restricted. Outside of external harm, much of which is caused by the very policies Sanders supports, that's not a matter for other people to rightly vote upon.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Yeah, it's just great to have a bunch of semi-literate/illiterate low skilled refugees pouring in unchecked from countries that still have diseases we eliminated decades ago. Especially when our job situation is total shit already.

  • MJBinAL||

    Wow, this is spot on.

    Bernie Sanders represents his voters. Kind of amazing in a way, be nice if there rest of those assholes tried that occasionally.

  • Just say Nikki||

    Not a single one of Sanders's constituents believes immigration should be less restricted. Clearly.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Not a single one of Sanders's constituents believes immigration should be less restricted. Clearly

    Considering they chose to live in a progressive whiteopia, whatever support they have for less restrictive immigration appears to be limited to areas where they don't have to send their kids to school.

  • kbolino||

    Hypocrisy doesn't disprove the argument, it only discredits the arguer.

  • Devil's Candy||

    Well, technically he should be representing the interests of his State, not its residents.

  • Zeb||

    It's weird if he claims to be an international socialist. If you are for redistribution and fairness to all of the poor of the world, then you'd better start with a whole lot of redistribution from rich countries like the US to poor countries or you are just full of shit.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    I like how you worked TRUMP into a post about Che Guevera's and Joab Baez's offspring.

    GOOD WORK, REASON!

    TRUMP

    TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

    TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

    TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Trump T. Trump!

  • Trump's Woodchipper||

    I have yet to see a single word from this man's mouth that doesn't convince me he's utterly unqualified to manage a McDonald's, much less be POTUS.

  • Akira||

    "You don't need 12 different combo meal choices and 10 different kinds of soda when there are children starving in this country!"

  • Zeb||

    Mayve he does manage McDonalds. Their menus seem to be shrinking lately.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    People who think like him fix it so everyone has, and has access to, less. Far less.

  • Mencken Sense||

    No shit. How could he run a business without a supply of cheap immigrant labor?

  • Notorious G.K.C.||

    You know which other socialist accused sinister wealthy interests of underming his country's sovereignty?

  • Notorious G.K.C.||

    undermining

  • commodious spittoon||

    Certainly can't have been "underarming." Bernie has a thing about that sort of thing.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    +27

  • commodious spittoon||

    I realized after posting that it works on another level, too.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else worked "on another level"....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    The guys two floors up from me?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    That's EXACTLY of whom I was thinking! Thanks, Swiss!

  • hamilton||

    Donald Trump?

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Don't you mean '+23'?

  • Rich||

    No skin off my nose.

  • Mendelism||

    Dennis?

  • John||

    Immigration controls are a form of protectionism. They limit competition and thus artificially raise the wages of native workers. Supply and demand still works in the labor market. Yes, wages in the ideal should equal productivity minus expected return on investment. Markets do not however operate in the ideal. They operate in practice. In practice productivity minus the expected rate of return is the long term ceiling for wages. Any business that pays its employees above that will go broke. Businesses however are free to pay below that without necessarily going broke. How much below that they can pay and for how long they can pay it before the market forces them to pay more to attract employees is a function of supply and demand. The larger the supply of workers with that skill the lower wages a business can pay and the longer it can get buy with doing so. Since the world is pretty big and the number of workers who would like to come here very large, that short term becomes effectively forever for a lot of native workers.

  • Anomalous||

    They'll take our jobs!

  • John||

    In some sense yes. They also lower wages. I don't understand why Libertarians have such a hard time grasping this concept.

  • Idle Hands||

    Most do they just articulate that the diminished cost of the inputs will end up with a cheaper output and ends up being a net benefit to all.

  • John||

    Which is nonsense. It may be an benefit overall but it is not a benefit to "all". Some people are most certainly worse off as a result. That may be a price worth paying but it is still the truth.

    At the national level, open borders by giving employers access to a virtually endless stream of labor, allows employer to forever keep wages below productivity minus the return on money. That doesn't mean they have to pass that savings on to their customers in the form of lower prices. It might mean that but it also might not. That depends on the supply and demand and price point of whatever they are selling. And chances are good they will be able to pocket at least some if not most of that windfall.

    Immigration is good for employers, can be good for consumers but it almost never good for native workers, at least not in a really mature and big market like ours.

    How much it benefits consumers depends on the market and the goods involved. If there is a real shortage of native workers in a field, then it is going to benefit consumers a lot. So, importing doctors and nurses is likely to benefit consumers since we have a shortage of them and health care prices are high. Importing a lot of workers in fields that already are glutted with workers is likely just to lower wages and benefit employers and not consumers much.

    Also, the cost of production is more than just the price of labor. In areas that labor is a small part of production, consumers are likely to benefit less.

  • Idle Hands||

    sure I just don't see what you describe as worse than the current situation.

  • Idle Hands||

    as this is already happening on a large scale.

  • Ron||

    you say there will be a benefit to the consumer however if the consumer looses his job to low wage workers then the consumer can no longer consume hence any benefit is lost. this also won't help the employer if no one can afford his product, often he will make the mistake of lowering wages even more thus just making it even worse a vicious circle.

  • kbolino||

    Anything that can be said about how consumer benefits aren't guaranteed can be said as much about wage drops not being guaranteed. Amazingly enough, many people aren't replaceable. That's not to say employers won't try, since of course mindless cost-cutting is an MBA fetish, but such choices will not be without consequences. I can certainly understand objections in the context of highly regulated markets, but the answer is (independent of immigration) to deregulate, since those costs will become evident at some point anyway. If we always go by what results in the least harm, we're just giving the socialists cover. Of course, it doesn't help that workers blame the immigrants when they lose their jobs and can't find new ones, instead of the so-called workers' advocates who are the real cause of the problems.

  • John||

    Amazingly enough, many people aren't replaceable.

    Sure and the people who are replaceable are generally low skilled workers. They are the ones who get fucked by immigration. With true open borders, the job market is forever slack. That fucking sucks for people. The employers have all of the leverage and you are one mistake away from poverty and unemployment.

    In the country right now, someone with a criminal record or a bad work history or who has been sick and doesn't have a work history is screwed. No one is going to hire them. That has bad effects on society. Open borders people never will acknowledge that. They just say fuck you and make some insulting "they took your jerb" rejoinder. I wish open borders advocates would realize how big of pricks they come across as.

    Lastly, those regulations are not going anywhere and you know it. Open borders is an unholy alliance of crony capitalists and hard leftists looking to create a larger dependent class. They will never get rid of those regulations because the regulations are what makes open borders desirable to them. Why Libertarians insist on being those people's toadies on this issue is beyond me. Would it be so hard to say "no open borders without deregulation"? To actually look out for the interests of the people who are going to get screwed by this?

  • kbolino||

    The employers have all of the leverage and you are one mistake away from poverty and unemployment.

    This is just socialism repackaged. If the employers are so powerful, then become one yourself.

    Lastly, those regulations are not going anywhere and you know it.

    And neither are border restrictions (truly). We are just trading one form of cronyism for another.

    Open borders is an unholy alliance of crony capitalists and hard leftists looking to create a larger dependent class.

    You may notice that I never endorse such proposals. What I argue against are false premises.

  • Marshall Gill||

    I wish open borders advocates would realize how big of pricks they come across as.

    Oh, come on, John. They do realize and revel in it. They just don't give a shit. They will not have an immigrant competing with them but with people they hire, and they know it. So they get to preen about their moral superiority and save themselves a few bucks at the same time. The only real danger is the very real possibility of breaking their own arms while patting themselves on the back.

  • kbolino||

    Oh, come on, John. They do realize and revel in it. They just don't give a shit. They will not have an immigrant competing with them but with people they hire, and they know it. So they get to preen about their moral superiority and save themselves a few bucks at the same time. The only real danger is the very real possibility of breaking their own arms while patting themselves on the back.

    WTF is wrong with competition, now? "Job security uber alles" is no better than "open borders uber alles".

  • Overt||

    With true open borders, the job market is forever slack.

    This is simply untrue.

    Let's say we had open immigration. People would start coming to this country, pushing up demand for living necessities, while wages remained stagnant. At some point, it makes no sense to immigrate, as the cost of living exceeds expected wages. Likewise, the availability of labor in the other countries decreases, eventually pushing wages up.

    Add on to this that by keeping wages low, a business can make other capital investments, which often leads to the expansion of wealth.

  • kbolino||

    It is better IMO to talk about free migration, wherein people who want to move, have the means to do so, and respect the rights of everyone involved along the way, are not required to ask permission or take orders from government.

    Bearing in mind, of course, that this is nothing like the present situation, nor resembles any proposal put forth by any politician I know of.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Open borders don't work when it only works in one direction.

  • ||

    They also lower the cost of services for consumers.

    In a perfect universe, our welfare cases would be forced to move to Rwanda, where the cost of living is much lower and their lack of skills won't be hindrance.

  • John||

    They also lower the cost of services for consumers.

    Sometimes. It depends on the market. See above.

  • ant1sthenes||

    In a perfect universe, our welfare cases would be forced to move to Rwanda

    A lesser man would have heard a dog whistle there.

  • Paul.||

    In some sense yes. They also lower wages. I don't understand why Libertarians have such a hard time grasping this concept.

    We don't have a hard time grasping the concept. We don't care.

  • kbolino||

    I don't understand why Libertarians have such a hard time grasping this concept.

    As has been repeatedly pointed out, libertarians (unless you capitalized the L for a reason?) don't have any trouble understanding that wages may trend downward if the labor pool is expanded. The most succinct libertarian answer is "so what?" which is apparently perfectly acceptable in any other place where capitalism causes "harm" (as in, deviation from the status quo, not actual harm), but for some reason is completely unacceptable as regards immigration and the effect on wages.

    The more nuanced libertarian answer is that employees don't own jobs, employers do, and that labor costs are not free, they come at the expense of higher prices. No one has yet offered a meaningful rejoinder to the former argument, and the best rejoinder to the latter argument that I've seen is "prices don't always go down" which while strictly true is also just a progressive canard ("those greedy businessmen!"). By the same token, I could just as well argue that "wages don't always go down!"

    The fundamental notion that the one who pays the wage owns the job ought to be sufficient. The government has no more place in that particular arrangement than any other private affair. The whinging about knock-on effects (sans crime) reads like the majority opinion in Wickard. Why don't we just set a minimum wage if allowing wages to settle to lower market clearing rates is so unacceptable?

  • John||

    The more nuanced libertarian answer is that employees don't own jobs, employers do, and that labor costs are not free, they come at the expense of higher prices. No one has yet offered a meaningful rejoinder to the former argument, a

    I will give you a couple of rejoinders. First, it assumes that employees get no vote about who comes into the country. Immigration threads on here are by far the most tiresome ones because the entire conversation consists of the two sides talking past one another. Libertarians who support open borders are transnationalists. They don't believe in borders or that people living in a country have any sovereign right to determine who can and cannot enter their territory. If you believe that, then your argument makes perfect sense. If you don't and think there is such a thing as a border and the people living in a nation have a right to determine who crosses it, then your statement makes no sense. The employers don't own the border, the voters do and they have no more right to demand anyone cross it than they have to demand anything else from the government.

  • Idle Hands||

    @John- I think you get further if you argued this narrative.

  • Protagoronus||

    Immigrants create lots of jobs by starting and owning businesses. You are missing a lot of the picture.

  • John||

    Some do. But not all. It depends on the immigrant. And the more immigrants you let in, the harder it is for them to do that.

  • Protagoronus||

    Not so hard if they have lots of other immigrants to employ. They are people. Just like you.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Legal immigrants maybe.

  • kbolino||

    But you are not rejoining the argument I made, you're rejoining another argument: that employers should be able to dictate who gets to move across the border. What I said is that employers own the jobs, which means that they get to decide who fills them. This issue is about more than just the border, it's also about asking permission and taking orders when hiring someone (see: Form I-9 etc.).

  • John||

    What I said is that employers own the jobs, which means that they get to decide who fills them.

    Sure they do. But if they don't own the border, then that point is irrelevant to this debate. Just because they don't own the job doesn't mean they can not be limited in who can fill them, namely by the border.

  • kbolino||

    Just because they don't own the job doesn't mean they can not be limited in who can fill them, namely by the border.

    But limiting employer access to labor can't be the only reason to control the border. Just because a bunch of people voted doesn't make it right.

  • Zeb||

    I don't really see how you can be a libertarian and not a transnationalist. The whole premise is that every individual has rights. And borders only impinge on rights, they don't protect any natural rights ever. And it's not just the rights of the immigrants that they violate, but the rights of the people who might want to employ, house, or otherwise engage in voluntary commerce with them.

    They don't believe in borders or that people living in a country have any sovereign right to determine who can and cannot enter their territory.

    The can believe in borders. On one side you are subject to the laws of one government and on the other side you are subject to another.
    The big problem is the notion that it is "their territory". The whole country is not collectively owned by everyone. No one should get to vote on how I use my property. And if I want to use my property to employ poor immigrants that is my right. No collective has the sovereign right to deny people their basic property rights.

  • Mencken Sense||

    "I don't really see how you can be a libertarian and not a transnationalist."

    Maybe I'd like to see libertarians actually achieve power.

    Does the Third World electorate we've imported over the last forty years tend to vote libertarian? There's a reason the socialists want to open the borders.

  • kbolino||

    Does the "Third World electorate we've imported over the last forty years" have anything to do with libertarians, at all whatsoever?

    Feel free to call out the useful idiots who will back any plan that they can construe as promoting "open borders". But it is just nonsense to say that libertarians have had anything to do with the situation as it exists.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Full constitutional rights are for Americans, not foerigners.

  • John||

    The second rejoinder is that not all the savings get passed onto the consumers. A lot of it just gets pocketed by the employers. Understand, this is not making the country any richer. The productivity is the same whether it is a native or a immigrant doing the job. The difference is the wages paid and thus the share of that productivity that the employer gets and the employee gets. So all open borders is doing is making employers rich at the expense of workers. The country only gets richer when productivity increases. Lowering wages just rearranges the shares of that productivity.

    Unless you can show me that immigrant labor is doing something that natives can't do or do it in a more productive way than natives, importing them doesn't make us richer. It just lowers wages and makes employers richer. Remember wages are not wealth. Wages are the share of the wealth that workers get to keep.

  • Idle Hands||

    This I don't care about.

  • WTF||

    Of course with lower wages some employers will certainly lower prices to try to grab more market share, which will pressure other employers to follow suit, etc. So with everyone enjoying lower wages due to immigration, it would be odd if some didn't take advantage of that to try grabbing additional market share and forcing others to follow suit to remain competitive.

  • Zeb||

    importing them doesn't make us richer

    Who is "us"? It makes some people richer. It certainly makes the immigrants richer. and some people who employ immigrants. Why are they any less part of "us" than some random American I have never met?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    the best rejoinder to the latter argument that I've seen is "prices don't always go down" which while strictly true is also just a progressive canard ("those greedy businessmen!").

    "Wage" is just the name for the price of labor.

  • Zeb||

    It's not so much that libertarians don't grasp the concept. It's that they don't think any of that justifies using violence to stop people moving from place to place and engaging in voluntary economic transactions. That's the problem. By restricting immigration and employment of immigrants, you are violating my rights as a human being and American citizen to engage in commerce with whomever the fuck I want on whatever terms we can agree on. Why am I obliged to sacrifice my rights for the benefit of people who happen to have been born under the rule of the same nation state as I was? Why should I care any more about those people than I do the poor Guatemalans whose lives are enormously improved by having money sent back from their relative working in the US?

    If anything is national socialism, it is the calls for severely restricted immigration which force Americans to pay artificially high wages to their fellow citizens

  • MWG||

    This only makes sense if the economy was a pie that never grew. Immigrants bring new businesses (new jobs) and are potential clients for the businesses already here.

  • Microaggressor||

    So right wingers are racists who hate Mexicans, but secretly want more of them for non-living-wage-slave labor. Am I correct on this narrative?

  • commodious spittoon||

    It's like raising the minimum wage despite disproportionately affecting the classes of people least able to overcome unemployment: the Sanders thinks some people simply don't deserve to work.

  • PapayaSF||

    This is not a contradiction. Southern plantation owners wanted more slaves, too. The Chamber of Commerce types want cheap labor. They don't care if that means Third World peasants whose kids are on welfare or in gangs.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Non-progressives are bad and want bad things. The narrative doesn't have to agree with itself. As if a progtard ever made sense anyway.

  • Idle Hands||

    I actually was curious about his stance and it actually is consistent with his other beliefs. Say what you will about the Bern but at least he has a consistent ethos.

  • Idle Hands||

    to be sure the only conclusion is ovens and starvation, but consistency is nice.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else used ovens....

  • WTF||

    Mike Huckabee?

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    The Keebler Elves?

  • hamilton||

    Donald Trump?

  • 24th Kind Of Deodorant||

    People who make cakes for gay weddings?

  • NYC2AZ||

    Paula Dean?

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    That witch Hansel and Gretel hung out with?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Say what you will about nihilism, at least it's an ethos.

    /same thing

  • kinnath||

    Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    That's because they SEE NOTHINK, they HEAR NOTHINK....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Sgt Shultzism?!!

  • jmg09||

    Shut the fuck up, Donny!

  • ||

    Google pay 97$ per hour my last pay check was $8500 working 1o hours a week online. My younger brother friend has been averaging 12k for months now and he works about 22 hours a week. I cant believe how easy it was once I tried it out.
    This is wha- I do...... ✹✹✹✹✹✹ www.online-jobs9.com

  • ||

    To his credit, Klein pushed back by pointing out that the poor people of the United States are actually quite wealthy when compared with the poor people of other countries.

    What? No. Klein is unworthy of credit for anything besides being a moron. There is no intelligence in that statement whatsoever. It makes no difference how rich America's poor are now, that can change quickly when our continued socialist policies collapse the working middle class who supports the 'rich' poor. Something about running out of other peoples' money.

    Seems the job of Reason now is solely to give some form of legitimacy to idiots like Ezra Klein and Paul Krugman. Reason writers, idiot apologists.

  • Hugh Akston||

    So a future Reason article will point out the good arguments that you make?

  • ||

    Is it required that I make a good argument with every post now? Can't I just occasionally criticize the writers here or just say something silly? Fuck, I thought those were requirements for posting here.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else was aided by "useful idiots"....

  • WTF||

    Barack Obama?

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    P.T. Barnum?

  • jmg09||

    Bruce Jenner?

  • DenverJ||

    Once upon a time, Krugman would occasionally say something that was not complete nonsense, but it been a while. OTOH, I've never read a single sentence of Klein's that wasn't complete bullshit.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    We would be better off organizing to prepare to........cause attrition.........of their sort.

  • Adans smith||

    Socialist are the biggest xenophobes.They believe in a zero sum economy.People coming in take and don't grow the pie.That's why they think all money should be doled out equally .There is only so much for every one. Also ,top men are needed to over see the distribution.Bernie thinks he is that man and that is both sad and scary.I'm taking a break for mowing.87 here,love the heat,F you Al Gore..

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else was a xenophobe....

  • Libertymike||

    Colin Cowherd?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    sweeeeeeeeet!

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Ripley?

  • WTF||

    Woodrow Wilson?

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Davros?

  • kinnath||

    I guess this is where I revive the idea that the US should annex all of North America, Central America, and South America.

    We can start with Canada (for practice) and then work our way south starting with Mexico.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else annexed territory....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Tamerlane?

  • ||

    Ketchup flavored chips with a yummy maple syrup dipping sauce!

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    The horror.....the horror.....

    *stares blankly into the distance*

  • Florida Man||

    I always annex Canada and Mexico in Risk. It's so much easier to defend.

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Personally speaking, I would annex the Sudetenland.

  • WTF||

    And thereby assure peace in our time!

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    You know who else annexed the Sudetanland?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    The Saxons?

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    The Habsburgs?

  • thrakkorzog||

    Oh yeah, everybody starts off by annexing Canada. Next thing you know you're fighting death laws trying to find a water chip, then that asshole overseer banishes you from the vault, and your grandkids have to suffer through a horrible tutorial level.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    I've toyed with the idea of the US conquering Mexico to pay for all the bullshit they cost us. We would get al their oil. Maybe snag Canada too while we're at it.

  • John||

    Because doing that would mean the Mexican elites might have to start doing something besides stealing and telling anyone who didn't like it to get the fuck out and go to America. And we can't have that.

  • kinnath||

    The Panama Canal would be an easier border to defend

  • kinnath||

    The Panama Canal would be an easier border to defend

  • kinnath||

    The Panama Canal would be an easier border to defend

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    I think the Panama Canal would be an easier border to defend.

    You know who else looked for easier borders to defend...

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Risk players?

  • Illocust||

    Australians.

  • kinnath||

    I triple dog dare you . . . . .

  • kinnath||

    I triple dog dare you . . . . .

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    * screams because tongue is frozen to flagpole *

  • ||

    Yeah, we could just wait for some of them Honduruns to start swimming across the canal and that's when we release the sharks with laser beams!

  • Mickey Rat||

    Bur the Hondurans would be Americans if our southern border was the canal.

  • ||

    Damnit! You and your awareness of Geography! Ok, let me start again.

    Some Colombians start swimming across the canal...

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Or even some mutated sea bass. I hear they can be quite ill-tempered.

  • Free Society||

    (as evidenced by the lack of success by nearly every single spanish speaking nation)

    I realize there is some degree of sarcasm in this statement. But... that correlation is more to do with Spanish speaking countries having not only inherited the language of it's former colonial empire, but also the political culture and law system of that particularly corruptible colonial empire. It's the same reason why former British colonies do so much better than former French and Spanish colonies in virtually every metric.

  • Free Society||

    That's a facet of the political culture. But even more important are the legal systems handed down to the newly independent colonies. Roman/Napoleonic/Civil law proved less capable of restricting government power, protecting individual liberty or providing a legal environment that was particularly conducive to the accumulation of capital resources, unlike common law and similar Germanic law based systems.

  • WTF||

    You know who else used a Germanic law based system?

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Germans?

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    The current Pope is a Marxist.

  • Hugh Akston||

    It would be cool if "right-wing billionaires are trying to dissolve the US border" was a real thing and not just a homemade-deodorant-induced hallucination.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Hehe, deodorant-induced hallucination. Nice.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    To his credit, Klein pushed back by pointing out that the poor people of the United States are actually quite wealthy when compared with the poor people of other countries.

    But I guess the poor people of other countries don't get to vote for Bernie Sanders.

  • Paul.||

    But I guess the poor people of other countries don't get to vote for Bernie Sanders.

    Why not?

  • WTF||

    Don't worry, they will soon enough.

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Sure they do. As does Mickey Mouse, residents of the local prison, cemeteries, pet cemeteries, video game characters, and fictional people whose ballots are in the trunk of Al Franken.

  • ||

    Wait a minute here. Isn't the official democrat stance on this issue to give amnesty to all illegals and let as many more in as want to come?

    Ol Bernie's done went and stepped off the plantation. He'll be dealt with swiftly now. He either apologizes and reverses this, or he's out of the tribe and will have to run 3rd party.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else ran as a third party...

  • Troglodyte Rex||

    The Kochplotters?

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    TR?

  • Woodchipper Terminator T-1001||

    Lyndon LaRouche?

  • HolgerDanske||

    "He either apologizes and reverses this, or he's out of the tribe and will have to run 3rd party."

    You underestimate the power of Minitrue.

    Remember, it's the anti-slavery, pro-civil-rights party, and always has been.

  • Christophe||

    What? He used the magic words to discredit the idea, so he's in the clear.

  • BearOdinson||

    So wait. I am confused.
    Are the Koch's right-wing and racist because they want to allow Mexicans to work here in America?
    Or are they right-wing and racist because they don't want Mexicans here?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Yes.

    You know who else was full of contradictions....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Half the characters in "Alice in Wonderland"?

  • Drake||

    Yes.

  • ||

    They're right wing racists because they don't hate whitey enough and they think that businesses create jobs.

  • Rick O'Shay||

    It's because they want to bus Indians in on 747s.

  • Paul.||

    Sanders is also in the pocket of Big Union. Big Union doesn't like immigration.

  • kinnath||

    this

  • Ron||

    Big Union is trying to unionize illegals so they are open to any method of growth

  • kbolino||

    Not contradictory. On the one hand, they don't want new competition with non-union labor. On the other hand, of the laborers who are already here, they want more of them unionized.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    I'd like to thank REASON and my commenting colleagues on making this the Godwinest of threads EVAR.

    You know who else....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Godwin?

  • Citizen X||

    Hitler?

  • ||

    Brilliant! So Bernie goes and upsets everyone's tea-kettle be revealing he's not a hip 20-something progressive with a 'Yes, we can!' bumber sticket on his Prius, but is actually, seriously, an old-school 60s style hard-hat socialist.
    Who would have thought?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else was misjudged by his contemporaries....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Joe Jackson?

  • WTF||

    You gotta look sharp

  • ||

    Everything about the Bernie Sanders campaign makes me happy. Yes, lefties, please do vote for the cranky old racist communist. PLEASE.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else ginned up support among leftists....

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    The makers of Victory Gin?

  • Adans smith||

    The answer is Lenin,always.I have mowed and will now drink

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    I larfed.

  • WTF||

    FDR?

  • Je suis Woodchipper||

    JERBS!

    love it.

    Bernie vs Trump please please please please primary electorate. Please please please vote for Bernie vs Trump.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else promised JERBS if elected...

  • ||

    Were they shovel ready jobs?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    I know some were Oven Ready™ jobs...

    Too soon?

  • thrakkorzog||

    Can't we just go back to massive pile of guys having gay sex?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    It's a trap!

    I believe strongly that the most effective thing liberals and progressives can do to advance our public policy goals — on health care, immigration, financial regulation, reducing income inequality, completing the fight against anti-LGBT discrimination, protecting women’s autonomy in choices about reproduction and other critical matters on which the Democratic and Republican candidates for president will be sharply divided — is to help Clinton win our nomination early in the year. That way, she can focus on what we know will be a tough job: combating the flood of post-Citizens United right-wing money, in an atmosphere in which public skepticism about the effectiveness of public policy is high.

  • ||

    Maybe Clinton can come out as a lesbian, and tewll everyone that's why she had to wipe her email server.

  • SugarFree||

    The possibility of nudes will kill any effort to find the deleted emails.

  • Tak Kak||

    "To his credit, Klein pushed back by pointing out that the poor people of the United States are actually quite wealthy when compared with the poor people of other countries."

    Doesn't that just help Sander's point though?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    The obvious follow up question is 'What do you do with the illegals here now? Send them back?'

  • Tak Kak||

    "The obvious follow up question is 'What do you do with the illegals here now? Send them back?'"

    That's the obvious followup question? I can think of several more closely related ones.

    I'd go with "whatever is most cost effective". It might be cheapest to just let them alone and stick to consistently deporting any future arrivals. It's not waterproof, but it's seaworthy.

  • Jordan||

    Oh noes! Teh immigrants are coming to steal all 23 of our brands of deodorant!

  • ||

    Latin Americans can be very flamboyant dressers compared to your average Murikan who lounges around in sweat pants all day. Especially the wiminz folk. They aren't going to like Ol Bernie trying to make them stick to less than 200 different pair of shoes.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else was a sharp dresser...

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    That guy that every girl is crazy about?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Point to ASIS

  • WTF||

    Nucky Johnson?

  • Frankjasper1||

    Him citing 2 and 3 dollars....if they come here to work and have been working for that much shows they obviously are able to live somehow. Doesnt this fly in the face of the you need 15 for a living wage?

  • ||

    They do very well here. They get low wages, but one of them will rent a house and his twenty cousins will move in. So they save a lot of money and take it back home, where it's worth a fortune.

    A lot of them are not interested in citizenship, they just want to work here. So I think a migrant worker program would be good. At least then, they don't need to sneak across the border and we know who is here.

    I'm opposed to immigration reform solely for the reason that any bill that congress comes up with will be totally fubar and crammed full of cronyism and a thousand unrelated things, all of them bad.

    I'm not in favor of congress doing anything unless it's repealing shit that they already did.

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    unless it's repealing shit that they already did

    Repealing something means admitting they fucked up and that calls into question their ability to rule. Can't have that.

  • Ron||

    we used to have a migrant worker program does any know why we gave that up?

  • Surly Chef||

    I mean, only if you want to live in parts of your town with lots of Messicans, which he doesn't. It totally isn't racist...

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else sounded like Donald Trump....

  • Certified Public Asshat||

    *Rubs chin*

    Bernard, it is a German name, no?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Fucking character limit-

    I realize that before explaining why I am convinced that a prolonged prenomination debate about the authenticity of Clinton’s support for progressive policy stances will do us more harm than good, that very point must be addressed. Without any substance, some argue that she has been insufficiently committed to economic and social reform — for example, that she is too close to Wall Street, and consequently soft on financial regulation, and unwilling to support higher taxation on the super-rich. This is wholly without basis. Well before the Sanders candidacy began to draw attention, she spoke out promptly in criticism of the appropriations rider that responded to the big banks’ wish list on derivative trading. She has spoken thoughtfully about further steps against abuses and in favor of taxing hedge funds at a fairer, i.e., higher, rate.

    Don't fall for the siren song of Bernie, Progressives! Stay the course, vote HILLARY! She's been grooming herself for this since she burned her first training bra. It's her turn.
    Barney Frank says so.

  • Just say Nikki||

    you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that

    Well, that's persuasive!

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else could be persuasive...

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    Billy Mays?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    noyce!

  • Je suis Woodchipper||

    The geographical regions formerly known as Syria and Iraq beg to differ.

  • Florida Man||

    You're trying to do away with rape and I don't know a rapist in the world that wants that!

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    STEVE SMITH AGREE!

  • Lee G||

    At least Bernie recognizes that we can't have our welfare state (and unions) along with open borders.

    Seriously, did anyone expect him to have some other answer on this?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Brooklyn Bernie is against free trade too. He is awful.

    We need a deficit cutting, free trade, anti stupid war POTUS.

    Oh, we have one. Thanks Peanuts!

  • Mike M.||

    The vile scumbag David Weigel does nothing but lie. He lies so damn much, he's having a hard time keeping all the lies straight in his sick little head these days.

  • John Titor||

    No see, it's 'anti stupid war' because collapsing a North African state and turning it into a breeding ground for Islamic terrorism is brilliant foreign policy according to Buttplug.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Bullshit. The $1.2 trillion deficit Bush left is down to about $450 billion due to sequestering, a tax hike, and a vastly improved economy.

    Iran, bitch!

  • WTF||

    What you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having seen it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul...

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    How much of the national debt has been paid down, Shreek?

  • This Machine||

    So, what's the labor force participation rate, shithead?

  • John Titor||

    I love the fact that you spew this talking point and all it does is reveal what an utterly moronic and delusional fool you are. Keep repeating your prayer Buttplug, then it will come true! What a surprise that the 'rationalist' tries to prop up his religion in such a way. Ah, Buttplug, the Presidential Creationist.

  • american socialist||

    Yeah we should all vote for Democrats like Hillary, who signed off on a trillion dollar war because she thought opposing a war against a country that never attacked us was bad politics. She's real principled.

  • PapayaSF||

    I mostly disagree with Bernie, but not only is he (partly) correct here, it makes me wonder if he isn't more viable as a candidate than I had thought. Folks around here tend to dismiss all opposition to mass immigration, but it's hugely problematic in numerous ways, and hugely unpopular among many voters. Trump would be nowhere without his stance there.

    It's troubling to me that libertarians, whose beliefs I largely support (for longer than many of you have been alive) don't see this as the Achilles' heel of the entire ideology. Yes, ideally, people should be allowed to move freely. But the world ain't ideal. Our welfare state is broke. People are more than economic units and bundles of rights. They carry culture and habits. And as un-PC as it is to note, a big part of the reason Latin America sucks is that it's filled with Latin Americans. It's not the geography, or the climate, or the genetics, it's the culture and governments, which are a manifestation of the people there. And most of the people there are anti-libertarian.

    A more few rural peasants here is not much of an issue. We're a big country. But tens of millions make a difference, one that is largely anti-libertarian. It increases poverty and crime. It balkanizes the country.

    Libertarians usually won't oppose mass immigration because it's not "consistent," but that sabotages the rest of the ideology, because it feeds a broke welfare state filled with masses of poor immigrants who vote for more statism.

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    it feeds a broke welfare state filled with masses of poor immigrants who vote for more statism

    So the solution is....dismantle the welfare state? I can get behind that as a condition of open borderz.

  • PapayaSF||

    Fine. Dismantle the welfare state first, and then let's talk.

  • Florida Man||

    So when are we going to support the deportation of non-libertarians or at the very least, the sterilization of unbelievers?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    All in good time.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else promoted the sterilization of "undesirables"....

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    WHAT? THE HELL YOU SAY! THIS CANNOT BE SO!

  • Tony||

    That's not just un-PC, it's downright genocidal in its rhetoric. I don't get it. You're supposed to be the freedom people, only we have to restrict what millions can do and take away the choices of millions of others in order to achieve "freedom." Because, uh, the world isn't ideal.

    FTR immigrants are a net boon to the welfare state because they tend to be younger than the general population. That argument is completely out and I don't want to see it here again.

    But back to the point--most of the planet is more socialist than the US. Why don't *you* guys emigrate somewhere else and let the rest of us have the socialism we want? Wouldn't that at least be the option that restricts less freedom?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    There are two types of "freedom people" - those who believe in infinite resources and those who don't. The latter tend to be anti-immigrant.

  • commodious spittoon||

    That doesn't sound anti-immigrant, it sounds anti-population. The environmentalist left is rife with those people.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Sure they are. But the xenophobe right (and Bernie) believe there are a finite number of jobs and wealth.

  • ||

    Forcing other people to join your communue =/= more freedom.

    Laws against forcing other people to join your communue =/= less freedom.

  • Tony||

    Who's forcing what now?

  • ||

    Socialism inherently involveds forcing other people to participate.
    If you want to go start your own little socialist commune and let people freely sign up for it, have at it.

    But what you really want is to have an election and then force everyone, including the 49% of society that voted otherwise, to participate.

  • DenverJ||

    You know who else was downright genocidal in his rhetoric?

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Ok easier solution: restrict voting privileges to postive net worth adults of peak productivity age (roughly 35 to 55).

  • Tak Kak||

    If you had a strong enough Congress to stonewall his silly economic views, Bernie could do just fine* as president.

    *Relative to extremely low expectations of course

  • Hugh Akston||

    So you're saying if people are allowed to just move about willy-nilly, the US will become an unsustainable welfare state drowning in debt and insular partisan groups trying to out-victim each other for a larger piece of the entitlement pie? I CANT EVEN IMAGINE WHAT SUCH A DYSTOPIAN WORLD WOULD BE LIKE

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    I know. It's...beyond comprehension, really.

  • Illocust||

    Being related to a bunch of construction workers (non-unionized in my neck of the woods, so don't start there), I have to agree. Occasionally you'll have one with an improvement ethic and he'll either work his way up the ranks a highly skilled position, welder for example, or strike out to start running his own crew. Most, though, only have a work ethic. They'll break their backs doing what you tell them to do, but anything beyond a seniority system is beyond them for advancing themselves beyond a common laborer. A lot seem to have trouble forecasting the consequences of actions. Problem delaying gratification. Tendency towards small life ruining decisions (not keeping the car sticker up to date, so when you get caught and unable to pay the fine you lose your license and ability to legally get to work). Issues judging character of friends and life partners. Etc.

    Consequences of this is that low skill immigration is a real threat to their livelihood. The only thing they bring to the market is a willingness to work. They can't grasp how to improve themselves on their own, and they don't have the social network of the middle or upper class to walk them step through step of learning skill sets. If the market is suddenly flooded with other people willing to do backbreaking labor, they are going to see their lifestyle go downhill.

  • Illocust||

    Cont.

    This is why I'm generally in favor of open immigration for anyone with a skill set (doctor, plumber, welder, etc.), but think we should basically send to nill immigration for no-skill. Those with skills either know how to improve themselves or have friends and family to guide them, so they will find other jobs to maintain their current lifestyle. Those without are much less likely to do so.

  • Tony||

    I hope the more starry-eyed liberals actually figure out what Bernie believes in before they start losing the general election, as they always seem to want so desperately to do.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I hate the Bernie Emo-progs for their stupidity. They call me a libertarian or a Bill Clinton DLC corporatist Democrat like there is something wrong with either.

    Of course the deranged Team Red idiots here call me a progressive. So the Progs actually have better sense than the 'Johns' and other Aborto-Freak 'libertarians' here.

  • Tony||

    I think I get more genuinely angry at the Naderites. The Johns are just naturally stupid. You don't get mad at the special ed kids. But anyone who'd rather lose an election than compromise his principles is indulging in narcissism, not political action. 2000 made me really bitter about that shit.

  • Idle Hands||

    My head just exploded.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Shorter version -- I don't like progressives or conservatives.

    I am a Hayek liberal - who also did not like the above two groups.

  • Tak Kak||

    You're an Old Whig?

  • John Titor||

    Actually, you're a narcissistic child who comes on here to trash your delusional version of 'Republicans' because it's the only way you can fuel the superiority complex that keeps your fragile, pathetic ego and self esteem problems in check. But of course you'll never be self-aware enough to realize it.

  • ||

    The progs just heard the word 'socialist' and creamed their pants without looking any further.
    Mood-affiliation.

  • Tony||

    It is past time for soaking the rich to be politically palatable rhetoric. It's really the only way to put things back in balance. It's the only thing that ever has. But he's unnecessary and makes me nervous, as Hillary has discovered that it works for her too.

    But don't worry, in a few decades the pendulum will swing back and some moron actor will become president and tell everyone that their declining outlook on life is all the fault of the minority poors and that to fix things we need to give some of the loot back to the rich. Except the minority will be white people, so that will be an interesting change.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    But taxing the top 1% at a 90% clip would not even balance the budget much less improve the lives of the working poor.

  • Tony||

    I'm about practical next steps. Making the overall tax code perceptibly progressive would be a good start.

  • WTF||

    The top 10% of earners already pay over 70% of the taxes, assnugget. You really are nothing but an envious little authoritarian idiot, aren't you?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Fuck you, idiot. I am OPPOSING a tax increase on anyone.

    (if you are replying to me)

  • WTF||

    Shreek - too fucking stupid to even understand an obvious response to Tony. Don't ever change.

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    Not regressive enough, WTF!

  • Tony||

    I said overall. I realize that it's convenient for your poor-downtrodden-billionaires narrative to pretend that income taxes are the only ones that exist, but if you take local and state taxes and include loopholes our system is basically flat.

  • Frankjasper1||

    When you say it is flat what do you mean? Id like to see some analysis behind this claim.

    What are these loopholes you speak of? Can you list all of them?

    My local tax is fixed and state is progressive so im guessing you are lying

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    if you take local and state taxes and include loopholes our system is basically flat

    Cite?

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    tell everyone that their declining outlook on life is all the fault of the minority poors

    Except, that moron actor never said that. He said it was the fault of too much government.

    Why do you insist on lying? Is it because its the only way you can convince people that socialism will work *this* time?

  • Tony||

    Small government rhetoric would never have worked without racist dog whistles. Reagan certainly didn't sell it on the bloated military, or too many roads.

  • WTF||

    Tony and shreek are hell bent on creating a vortex of stupid.

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    Ah right. Dog whistles - things that nobody can hear, except it seems you. Well played. A brilliant rebuttal. Maybe get you delusions and hallucinations checked out?

  • John Titor||

    Seriously, dog whistles Tony? Might as well try to justify yourself with miracles and signs from above. They have about as much merit given your rather blatant agenda to cast everyone who disagrees with you as a racist. Of course, Tony has never belittled the experiences of an entire 'race' of people to fit his argument. Oh wait, he has.

  • WTF||

    If you can hear the dog whistle, you're the dog.

  • John Titor||

    And Tony continues to show how he's on the side of 'facts' by declaring everyone against him racist by engaging in vague alternative history hypothetical unsupported by evidence in that isn't at all fueled by his personal bias and narrative. You're so transparent it's pathetic.

  • Tony||

    If your worldview requires you to subtract important aspects of history and plain objective facts from your perception of reality, your worldview is broken. Small government rhetoric has always been really about giving rich people more money. It was sold to poor people by exploiting their racism. The actual players involved admit it.

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    The actual players involved admit it.

    Cite? (this should be good for laughs...)

  • John Titor||

    Small government rhetoric has always been really about giving rich people more money.

    Tony, I understand that American schools are very poor and I expect you to know very little about rhetoric or oratory as a result. In debate, one makes a statement, and then attempts to provide evidence to support one's statement. One does not make a statement, declare it objective fact, and accuse everyone who denies it of being 'broken'. That is not the sign of an intellectual, that's the sign of an arrogant, spoiled child.

    If your worldview requires you to subtract important aspects of history and plain objective facts from your perception of reality, your worldview is broken.

    Tony fails to understand his own bias in this position. He is perfectly willing to 'subtract important aspects of history and plain objective facts' to pursue his agenda, but accuses others of doing so and proclaims 'their worldview broken'. Of course, if Tony had the self-awareness to recognize his arbitrary bias and actually consistently apply his argument, he'd realize that he's just defeated himself. Res ipsa loquitur, Tony's worldview is broken.

  • John Titor||

    It was sold to poor people by exploiting their racism. The actual players involved admit it.

    Again, you're declaring these to be objective facts with no evidence. And of course, you obviously have no other motive right? You declare that you know the agendas of others but are entirely transparent in the fact that you want to smear people who disagree with you as 'racists' in a pathetic attempt at a shaming tactic. Somehow, Tony, one might question your objectivity given your rather blatantly childish attempts at condemnation.

    Again Tony, you seem to be a person who, despite his constant anti-intellectual behaviour, enjoys academic credentials. I have joint majors in political science and history from one of North America's leading universities . What are your credentials? Must not be that good if you're spewing this pseudo-pop culture history at me and declaring objective facts with no sourcing.

    I mean, seriously America? This is the quality of pseudo-intellectual you offer up? Someone who wants to lecture others on history but is legitimately too arrogant to recognize his own bias and interpretation, which is goddamn Academic History 101?

  • DenverJ||

    Whoa, don't blame America; we don't want him. We tried to give him to Canada, but even the Canucks aren't nice enough to put up with him.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    If poor people are so easily deluded, why do you support subjecting every aspect of society to majority vote?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Go take your hero Raygun somewhere else, Tony.

  • John Titor||

    They call me a libertarian

    Well that just means they're idiots, who would confuse you for a libertarian?

    Bill Clinton DLC corporatist Democrat like there is something wrong with either

    Nevermind, they nailed it.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    I love the fact that you and your ilk are going to vote for a pro Iraq war, anti gay marriage, former Wal Mart Board of Director 1 percenter. It gives me a good laugh every time I think of it.

  • ||

    The problem is, this exposes an old rift between the old-school socialist labor movement and the new-school social-justice movement. The social-justice crowd wants to embrace immigrants, particularly hispanic ones, as another powerful identity group to play the identity politics game with. But the interests of immigrants run directly against those of labor unions.

    In reality, this is all symptomatic of a deep shift in the Democratic party's core constitutiencies, coinciding with a long-term decline in the power of big labor, especially private sector labor in the industrial midwest. The old labor movement is largely white and middle-class, and immigration is anathema to them, but their power has waned. The new alliance under Obama is a mix of public sector unions and race-based identity groups. The public sector unions are also much more racially mixed and lower class, so they blend better with the identity politics. Note that the SEIU has been supporting the minimum wage raising efforts, which also benefit lower-class workers.

    And now here's Bernie cluelessly injecting some rhetoric that comes straight out of the old-school labor playbook, like he has no idea who votes Democratic these days. He's going to have to start talking about white priviledge or something right quick or he's going to lose all the socialist street cred he had with the progressive left.

  • NoVAHockey||

    going to lose all the socialist street cred he had with the progressive left.

    what are they going to do? vote for Clinton?

  • ||

    She's definitely spouting the correct rhetoric these days. Even if it has nothing to do with what she claimed to believe in the 90s or in 2008.

    She loves gays and Hispanics, havn't you heard?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    And she ain't in no ways tired, God bless her cold, cold heart.

  • Citizen X||

    He's going to have to start talking about white priviledge or something right quick

    Bernie's too earnest and his principles (such as they are) are too rigid for him to play that game. Also, he doesn't strike me as being very smart. He seemed genuinely blindsided that the #BlackLivesMatter didn't like it when he dissed their pet issue in favor of his own.

  • Rich||

    On Immigration, Bernie Sanders Sounds Like Donald Trump

    "On Drugs, Bernie Sanders Sounds Like Pee-wee Herman"

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    "MY BIKE! SOMEBODY STOLE MY BIKE!!!"

  • This Machine||

    It's in the basement of the Alamo.

  • DenverJ||

    You know who else had a fortified basement?

  • Tony||

    There is plenty this country could do on immigration to make the system more effective and sane. But the status quo is the best possible world for both Republicans and business interests. Cheap labor that can't vote.

  • WTF||

    Yeah, Tony, fucking RETHUGLIKKANS letting in all those illegals!!11!!!!

  • John Titor||

    It's amusing to see him devolve into full nativist justifications and accuse everyone else of being racist.

  • WTF||

    It is entertaining.

  • Tony||

    Democrats are on board for reform. The only thing standing in the way is Republicans, as is usually the case. The status quo, as I explained, is the sweet spot for them. But they can't just come out and say it. Sometimes when people do nothing but scream that the border fence is forever inadequate, it means they don't really want to address the issue.

  • Frankjasper1||

    What is the democrat reform? Does it involve punishing businesses for hiring illegals?

  • Tony||

    The party's platform says "hold them accountable," but I don't know what that means specifically.

  • Frankjasper1||

    What would that be?

  • Tony||

    If you don't want people illegally immigrating then you have to make it impossible for them to get work. That's the only reason they come. That means some kind of sanction for businesses that employ cheap migrant labor. That is more effective than any fence, which is a big fat childish distraction from the issue. Then there's the issue of the immigrants living here, whose children or grandchildren will be full-fledged citizens in the not-too-distant future. Deporting them all, the only option palatable to conservatives, is similarly childish and unworkable. I'm for freedom so I'm for a relatively painful pathway to citizenship. If we ever get reform it will likely be sufficiently draconian to appease everyone.

  • Frankjasper1||

    What type of punishment? Who are these businesses? What about government like in california giving benefits?

  • Frankjasper1||

    What type of punishment? Who are these businesses? What about government like in california giving benefits?

  • Frankjasper1||

    Isnt this alreadt illegal?

  • Citizen X||

    I'm for freedom

    [citation needed]

  • american socialist||

    Here ya go, Robby...

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Int.....ration.htm

    Rated 8% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance.

    Sanders scores 8% by USBC on immigration issues
    OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2005-2006 USBC scores as follows:
    0%-30%: open-border stance (approx. 197 members)
    30%-70%: mixed record on open borders (approx. 70 members)
    70%-100%: sealed-border stance (approx. 202 members)

    An indication of how worthwhile your political philosophy is probably accurately measured by the number of times that you have to lie, take an interview out of context, or totally fabricate the records of your political opponents. It's an inverse relationship.

  • ||

    Maybe Robby needs some re-education. Maybe in some kind of camp.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Camp Right Mind®
    At Camp Right Mind, we ensure your children receive the most up-to-date Double Plus Goodthink™ so that they're everything they can be! Everything they SHOULD be!

    Camp Right Mind - "A mind is a terrible thing to leave alone"

  • american socialist||

    I'm just saying that maybe you know someone is full of shit when they start equating Donald trump and bernie sanders.

  • ||

    That's nothing that 20 years of hard labor won't correct, eh comrade?

  • SugarFree||

    Shut up, Warty. Judging people on what they say and do is racist or something.

    Ezra Klein: You said being a democratic socialist means a more international view. I think if you take global poverty that seriously, it leads you to conclusions that in the US are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing ...

    Bernie Sanders: Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

    Ezra Klein: Really?

    Bernie Sanders: Of course. That's a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. ...
  • ||

    Words are a bourgeois plot. Don't trust them, comrades!

  • John Titor||

    Or maybe you know someone is full of shit when they're so blindly partisan that they decide to ignore the racist old man spewing conspiracy theories about immigration because it doesn't fit their narrative.

    But, you know, that would require you to have basic reasoning ability, which you clearly lack.

  • Tak Kak||

    To be fair, Donald Trump's view (or comments on, at least) of immigration/citizenship is inconsistent as well.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    They're both inveterate populists. So one gets the trailer park vote and the other attracts the adjunct sociology professors. Big fucking whoop.

  • american socialist||

    Can't you clowns talk about anything other than the Soviet Union?

  • John Titor||

    Shockingly, the fool who lectures others on 'principles' while whitewashing the atrocities of the Soviet Union doesn't really get to have an opinion on when people bring their Soviet Union up.

    You offered up apologia for mass murder AS, you deserve all the hatred you get.

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    Not until you clowns admit that socialism is a failed ideology.

  • paranoid android||

    Can't you clowns talk about anything other than the Soviet Union?

    For you, I suppose it's the equivalent of being constantly reminded of that time you got drunk at a party and murdered millions of people.

  • ||

    This is the saddest thing I've ever read. I love it.

  • SugarFree||

    It's hard to hear you over the ocean of blood swirling around your ankles.

  • Tony||

    They touched on Nazis above.

  • WTF||

    And then they showed up to shit all over the thread with their socialist stupidity!

  • NotAnotherSkippy||

    Must be difficult to choose between them. On the one hand we had massive infrastructure spending and expansion of thr welfare state (minus a few undesirables of course). On the other we had nearly a century of longevity.

  • ant1sthenes||

    Oh, stop whining about the Lost Cause. I'm sure you'll get to stand up a new slave state somewhere one day.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    I hear Venezuela is trying to bring back the Lost Cause at a greater speed than the original.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Can't you clowns talk about anything other than the Soviet Union?

    Cmd+F, soviet.

    First mention, american socialist.

    Cmd+F, ussr.

    Not found.

    Cmd+F, u.s.s.r.

    Not found.

    Seems to me that you have a slight case of projection, american socialist.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Rated 8% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance.
    Bernie Sanders: Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

    So Sanders is backed by the Kochs?

  • ||

    You know, I miss Lonewacko.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    JINX!

    Kind of...

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Too bad Botox didn't weigh in on this thread with the other retards....

    *runs away*

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    *narrows gaze at fleeing Almanian*

  • Je suis Woodchipper||

    OT

    a sex worker in WV just killed an alleged serial killer. he had a trunk full of axes, bleach, shovel, plastic bags. and a list of other women.

    shot him with his own gun.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/27/.....al-killer/

  • Je suis Woodchipper||

    In 2005, Falls lived in Las Vegas, the same year four women who were working as escorts in the area disappeared. Their dismembered bodies were later discovered in Illinois.

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    Say. ProL hasn't been posting today....

    Naw! I couldn't be....

    Could it?

  • Free Ranger||

    Immigration increases growth but depresses low-skill wages. Bernie's obsession with inequality prevents him from supporting policy that most of us would benefit from.

  • This Machine||

    Wow, this article is like troll flypaper. Can we just abandon the thread and let them talk to each other?

  • Almanian - Trump's Woodchipper||

    You know who else abandoned a hopeless situation...

  • Restor-woodchipper-as||

    Cadet Kirk? Oh wait...

  • Swiss Servator, rudert schwer!||

    General MacArthur?

  • Surfcrab64||

    Keith Richards wife?

  • Surfcrab64||

    Crossing the aisle has to start somewhere.. Give em 2 days and they'll be looking at a small chalet in the Poconos

  • The Late P Brooks||

    BURN, BABY, BURN!

  • Billy Bones||

    So, using Bernie's philosophy, if I decide to move from say California to Vermont, does that mean there is no more Vermont? Vermont is still Vermont regardless of who moves there or away from there. I don't have to have a passport, a visa, or any other government permission to make such a move. The only reason we cannot have open borders in America is because of dumbfuck socialist's such as himself that have created a welfare state; a welfare state that is struggling to support the citizens of the US, let alone every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wishes to come and take part in our welfare system.

  • jonohio||

    Looks like Reason is now Der Sturmer of the whacky right grasping at every straw they can, lying where necessary to fit a square reality into their pathetic round ideology.

  • ||

    Oh, I like you. Stick around. Post many more comments. Please.

  • american socialist||

    John,

    The writer here can't distinguish between someone who has a strong record on loosening immigration reform while still being concerned about the economic impacts on poor citizens and someone who thinks Mexicans are rapists. Do you think it's mendacity or just telling the big boss what he wants to hear?

  • OldMexican||

    Re: American Stolid,

    The writer here can't distinguish between someone who has a strong record on loosening immigration reform while still being concerned about the economic impacts on poor citizens and someone who thinks Mexicans are rapists


    The justifications for their protectionist schemes are immaterial, Stolid. Trump could've said that Mexicans are actually green men from Mars, it doesn't matter ─ that doesn't make Sanders' arguments any less dumb and ignorant. They're BOTH economic ignoramuses. Just like you! Imagine that.

  • jonohio||

    The don't have a leg to stand on anymore. It's quite pathetic. They think that helping fellow Americans is racist, they hate the U.S. government and they enact programs that destabilize the economy and destroy the middle class. If this was any other country they would be considered terrorists or anarchists. How else do you quantify a person who has nothing but disdain for their own countrymen and hatred of their government to such a degree they want to sabotage its functioning?

  • Migrant Log Chipper||

    Oh,looky here, a new dumbass troll. Someone get the fireworks out, it's time to party.

  • jonohio||

    What wit from a piece of shit who would sell his own mother down the river for a couple of bucks.

  • DenverJ||

    What wit from a piece of shit who would sell out the freedoms that so many died to secure, just so he can feel morally superior.

  • jonohio||

    You don't have freedoms retard. You have temporary privileges. We didn't die for capitalism.

  • DenverJ||

    What wit from a piece of shit who would sell out the freedoms that so many died to secure, just so he can feel morally superior.

  • Bubba Jones||

    Social Nationalism?

  • american socialist||

    It seems to me that Robby is upset in finding out that Bernie sanders wants there to actually be a Mexico and a United States and that there should actually be a border with economic controls between those two countries. I know... He fails the true Scotsman test so now he's just like Donald trump, who wants to build a wall alongside the rio grande. It's funny, but I don't recall this level of nitpicking when it comes to Boy Wonder and Great Savior of the Libertarian Moment.

    I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen a defense made in the commentariat of a conservative who has advocated stronger immigration controls. I guess the new libertarian moment has a proviso limiting the liability of Republican conservatives to, you know, actually pass laws that limit government.

  • OldMexican||

    Re: American Stolid,

    It seems to me that Robby is upset [...] there should actually be a border with economic controls between those two countries.


    Is he being unreasonable for being upset at that, Stolid?

    He fails the true Scotsman test so now he's just like Donald trump,


    He fails the Basic Economics test just like Donald Trump does, not the True Scotsman. You can't even cite the standard fallacies correctly or even understand what is being argued.

  • jonohio||

    Did the economists fail basic economics when they crashed the economy in 2008? Are those the people we should be listening to for answers?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    It seems to me that Robby is upset in finding out that Bernie sanders wants there to actually be a Mexico and a United States and that there should actually be a border with economic controls between those two countries.

    Do you really think that's what Robby actually wants, american socialist?

  • John Titor||

    Of course, a conspiracy theory about Mexican rapists being shipped over the border is just insane. But a conspiracy theory about evil capitalists DARING to let people into the country is perfectly sane. There's no way that they are both pathetic emotional demonizations of the 'other' that exploit the worst of human instincts. And there's no way defending either makes you look delusional.

  • jonohio||

    It's perfectly sane because that's exactly what they did. 120,000 factories left the country. 2,000,000 jobs lost because they lobbied for terrible trade deals. That's what NAFTA, CAFTA and now the TPP is about. It's to make more money and make everyone else poor.

  • Migrant Log Chipper||

    Looky here, a dead thread-fucker stupider than Tony.

  • jonohio||

    Go suck some Koch faggot.

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Tony the Marxian,

    Democrats are on board for reform.


    That's a lie. It's a dumb lie because it is so obvious but a lie nonetheless.

    The Demo-rats couldn't care less about fixing the immigration system in the US. If they cared, they would've done that in 2009 or 2010. Instead they gave us Obamacare, Cash-For-Clunkers, the Stimulus Dud and Dodd-Frank. They want Latinos to vote, they just don't want them to become Republicans after they get their citizenship certificate.

    The Republicans will play their base all the time but the Demo-rats are pure hypocrites. They have been fooling immigrants with false promises for decades.

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  • NL_||

    Bernie's whole schtick is "the middle class" and protectionism and more rules and regulations. So I'm not shocked he wants more rules and regulations with the intention of protecting the domestic middle class at the expense of foreign poor people.

    The only question is why he gets treated like some idealist who's too good for us. No, he's just a kook with the same shitty, immoral beliefs as most politicians. He wants government to fuck over poor people for the sake of his constituents. He's not too good or pure for us; he's just a poorly dressed version of the same crime-and-poverty steward, like all the other politicians.

  • jonohio||

    Your crocodile tear about the poor is pretty blatant and pathetic. It's about a race to the bottom for the corporate assholes who run the government and nothing more. People like you are the idiots who will vote in people who will destroy any middle class we have with trade deals that our partners if it was offered to them would never agree to.

    After the country is 50% poor like it was in the 30s you are going to get exactly what you voted in: an FDR on steroids.

  • kbolino||

    The only race to the bottom is in true socialist countries like Venezuela. There is no such thing as a "race to the bottom" in market economies since everyone has the incentive to improve his lot in life. Your old job isn't paying as much as it used (or is, but you're too greedy and want more money), so what? Find a new job. Make a new job. Start a business. Just saving a good chunk of your paycheck every month goes a long way to reducing your reliance on other people and creating independence for yourself.

    Genuine poverty is a horrible condition. Not getting paid enough to satiate your ego is a state of mind.

  • jonohio||

    The logic of a child.

  • kbolino||

    What a masterful refutation! Surely, it is better that we all scrounge for scraps of toilet paper, then have to find a new job when the compensation doesn't allow for a third big screen TV or top-rate cutting-edge medical care!

  • jonohio||

    Yes, those are the only two alternatives. Either we live in a fantasy free capitalist society that has never existed to begin with or we live on scraps in Venezuelan socialism. Either-Or logic.

    The logic of a child.

    In this case a manchild.

  • ||

    Yeah Bernie, you've done a bang-up job for VT. That's why salaries are so low (way lower than the average 8%ish - 8%!!!!! - difference in COL between DC and Burlington), and taxes are so high. Even though VT is my home state, I'm moving to NH when the time comes. Fuck VT.

  • Yirmin||

    Just goes to show you that even an idiot can be right once in a while. Immigration would lower the wages, but it isn't something the Koch brothers are pushing for its something the silicon valley that support Hillary is pushing for more than anyone else.

    As for the economists that think immigration is a good thing... if economists were always right we would have never had a recession, or great depression or any number of economic calamities... Economics isn't a science it's little more than sociology with numbers to try and make it look legit.

  • jonohio||

    The economists also crashed the economy by letting the banks go wild.

    Do you think anyone gives a shit about what their brand of economics says?

  • kbolino||

    The government went wild, and the banks followed suit. Not surprising given that they've basically been a government-run cartel for decades now.

  • jonohio||

    Reagan deregulated the banks at the behest of the bank lobbies and then Clinton followed suit and killed the last vestige of sanity. Lo and behold they did what banks do: create debt chasing debt, running up speculative worthless commercial paper, fueling an asset bubble that crashed the economy.

    Governments are blind. They listen to the people who tell them what they want. The banks make money by creating debt and living off the difference in interest.

    They lobbied government officials who accepted their donations and started to institute the policies they were interested in.

    Everyone was doing exactly as is in their nature.

    But the fault in the destruction of the financial system lies in the neo-liberal economists who sold them the Efficient Markets bullshit theory, providing the justification for these two organizations to amicably destroy the regulatory system that kept their natural instincts at bay.

  • kbolino||

    The banks cannot make any money if nobody can afford to pay the interest. Unless the government promises to bail them out, that is. And what difference does "deregulation" (the regulations were tweaked, not abolished) make? Where do the selfless men who are supposed to run the government come from, if the rest of us are all too greedy and self-interest to govern ourselves?

  • jonohio||

    If there is a door that says: DANGER! WILD CARNIVOROUS BEARS! you do not open that door just because the bears might be sleeping.

    That's what we did. Our grandparents were eaten by bears. We put up a sign and a put up a guard and then petulant children whittled down the protections to nothing and put a bear to guard the door.

    If you know that banks want to speculate and politicians want money to be elected you support people to make sure that it doesn't happen. Instead we elected morons who are incapable of running a complex civilization, only in looting it. We will keep electing morons until the economy crashes again in 2 years. Soon someone is going to get it in their head that maybe its time for guillotines.

  • jonohio||

    http://tinyurl.com/pw384eb

    whoops! I guess the hypothesis is garbage.

    Either tell the banks to hold 100% liquidity or nationalize them or cooperatize them, or break them up or institute sovereign money and take away their debt creation ability or this will continue to happen.

    http://tinyurl.com/oos6h3r

  • TimothyLane||

    Oh, what a pity that Bernie Sanders -- for once -- is looking out for American workers instead of foreigners. That evidently isn't the norm in Versailles-on-the-Potomac. Democrats like massive immigration because they expect their votes at some time in the future, and Republicans like them because the Cheap Labor Lobby donates generously to them in order to make sure the spigot stays wide open. But some of us think American workers (including immigrants already here) should be the highest priority, not foreigners.

  • kbolino||

    But some of us think American workers (including immigrants already here) should be the highest priority, not foreigners.

    Then start a business and hire only Americans.

  • FatDrunkAndStupid||

    Yeah, it is really remarkable what Klein is suggesting in that interview- that our goal should be to lower our standard of living down to the average of the world so that other countries poor people can have a higher income. He's basically coming right out and saying "let's turn America in to Bangladesh or El Salvador". Sanders and Trump seem like the only two candidates running who believe that the job of an American Politician is to represent the best interests of Americans.

  • Eric Bana||

    Americans have rights to their jerbz!

  • jonohio||

    Yes they do. If you do not think so stay away from public office.

  • Bischkva||

    " Very few people involved in immigration policy are actively trying to erode all territorial distinctions between the United States and Mexico."

    Of course they don't say that, but when you've been invaded by 20 - 30 million poor people it might as well be so.

    Wake up, Libertarians. Look around you.

  • kbolino||

    Wake up, Libertarians. Look around you.

    I see 50%+ of the electorate who gladly ushered in all of the problems with government we presently have. I don't know what more there is for me to "wake up" to but I'm pretty sure I can't be "woken up" any more without an aneurysm.

  • ProfessorK||

    If you think Sanders sounds like Trump then you aren't listening to either one:

    Trump -- Immigrants are dangerous, horrible non-anglo people we need to protect ourselves from.

    Sanders -- We already have too many people working at too low a wage including may legal immigrants. We need to protect them from being replaced by imported even-lower wage workers.

  • kbolino||

    Since being denied a living wage is a serious problem according to a socialist like Sanders, the practical difference between the two is nil.

  • jonohio||

    When you write sentences, make sure they have a logical point to them.

    Where is the connection?

  • kbolino||

    It did have a point. Your failure to understand it is not my problem.

  • jonohio||

    "I am just going to jack off into the keyboard and you can interpret what I wrote and if you can't do it that's your problem."

    -An idiot bitch lolbertarian

    You fail to understand how communication works. Most likely the same reason you don't understand economics or anything else.

  • kbolino||

    I'm an "idiot bitch" because you're an obtuse moron? Fascinating.

  • jonohio||

    Keep deflecting instead of answering the question.

  • kbolino||

    Jesus tittyfucking Christ, did you graduate kindergarten?

    Trump says the immigrants will come here and hurt us.

    Sanders says the immigrants will come here and hurt us.

    Do you need a special bib, too?

  • jonohio||

    Trump wants to whip up a frenzy against immigrants and Bernie wants to stop incentives for corporations to outsource jobs.

    Trump is a Know Nothing opportunist and Bernie is a stateman.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Trump -- Immigrants are dangerous, horrible non-anglo people we need to protect ourselves from.

    Sanders -- We already have too many people working at too low a wage including many legal immigrants. We need to protect them from being replaced by imported dangerous, horrible non-anglo even-lower wage workers who will also be covered by US laws such as minimum wage laws unlike their undocumented counterparts.

    FTFY

  • CBear||

    Okay, Reason, you keep alluding to some libertarian principle(s) that are violated by enforcing immigration laws. Care to be explicit?

    Also, guest worker programs, work visas, are not "immigration." They are importation of labor that takes advantage of the built-in tariff of a US dollar/foreign currency exchange rate. Why does the Federal Reserve like a weak dollar? Hmmm?

    What's the libertarian principle? Does Reason think corporations should be able to bring anyone they want into the USA just because the corporation would like to hire that person?

    Should the Council on Islamic-American Relations be able to bring Ayatollah Khomeini into the United States as an employee?

    American corporations are completely free to hire foreign labor abroad in an off-shore location. They are free to transfer their operations beyond the relatively stable and fair jurisdiction of the US law. They are free to deal with brown-outs in India. They have a choice. Just because they don't like that choice doesn't mean we should give up our competitive advantages by functionally abolishing our borders.

  • jonohio||

    Reason was founded by the Koch Brothers in the 70s. When its not agitating for republican crypto fascists it sometimes writes interesting things about civil forfeiture or other subjects.

    But on election season its a propaganda rag for the worst people on the planet.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    I seem to be missing the agitation for occupational franchise, the restructuring of society in labor-capital unions/guilds called "corporations" based on occupation, and the regulation of wages through those corporations, jonohio. Could you point those out?

  • jonohio||

    Even if there is a theoretical support for free enterprise the effect of rooting for republicans who cut and destroy the regulatory system always gets the same results: a vacuum of power that is filled by privatization of public resources into private cartel monopolies. Monopolies who ramp up the price on everything and erode quality of life and living standards.

    It results in the destruction of organized labor with "free trade" and the institutionalization of speculative finance capital who cannot de-leverage their toxic private claptrap.

    For them the solution is always to cut public debt for essential services to give them a slightly higher ceiling to drive up their speculation even more until it all crashes down.

    Right now we are in a cutting frenzy and monopolies are popping up.

    What do we call large swathes of land ruled by private rulers who fund a central government through their impoverished subjects and exorbitant economic rent parasitism?

    Maybe crypto fascist was the wrong term.

    Feudalism is more accurate.

  • DenverJ||

    Not one of the problems you list is created by too little government distortion of the market.
    Every single one is caused by government distortion of the market.
    I'm not going to refute every point you made. Pick one of the problems on your list and I will walk you through how the problem is caused by government distorting the market.

  • jonohio||

    Capitalism cannot exist without the state enforcing privileges so its a moot point.

    OK, let's talk about the deregulation of the energy market.

    http://tinyurl.com/oumjsv7

    Or the collusion of interlocking directors

    http://tinyurl.com/ok47mb9

    Capitalism has systemic flaws within the way it functions. It tends towards monopoly, its cyclical and tends toward bubble speculation after it has overcapitalized in a region. Since it can only function under a state, it is the duty of the state to correct market failure.

  • EirkKengaard||

    "the material well-being of the world’s poor?"
    So - the authors solution to world poverty is to bring them all here at the expense of the American taxpayer?

  • FatDrunkAndStupid||

    Yes, and if you disagree you are a "racist".

  • EirkKengaard||

    Is there an emoticon for sarcasm?

  • EirkKengaard||

    "the consensus among economists that more immigration is better for the economy, has a positive effect on wages, and creates jobs."

    Well, we all know what "economists" are, and how much they charge to present an opinion.

    See also see "Give it your best shot" - Glenn Hubbard (from Inside Job) on youtube

    Suggested reading: Robert David STEELE Vivas's review of "Economists and the Powerful: Convenient Theories, Distorted Facts, Ample Rewards" 2012 by Norbert Häring (Author), Niall Douglas (Author); also "The End of Normal by Galbraith, page 63 and Paul Krugman, Conscience of a Liberal, Chapter 3 (pages 48-49).

  • jonohio||

    Economists are fundamentalists by another name. We must have faith in the economy! WE HAVE ANGERED THE ECONOMY WITH REGULATIONS! WE NEED TO SACRIFICE SOME POOR PEOPLE FOR THE RECOVERY

    SO SAY WE ALL

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    That's Keynes who says we must make sacrifices to appease the animal spirits.

  • jonohio||

    Looks like he was right... again.

  • DenverJ||

    The left hasn't practiced Keynesian economics in decades. Nor the right, for that matter.
    If you had told Keynes that, for every dollar the government borrows and spends, three dollars would magically appear in the economy, he would have told you that you were an idiot.

  • jonohio||

    I agree. Neo-Keynesianism (neo-classical) is a bastard economic theory that has failed but they can't seem to get the point yet. Banks create money. They still believe in market equilibrium, they still believe that monetary policy and banks can be excluded from models and they have a problem with math.

    Wynne Godley, Irving Fisher Michal Kalecki etc are truer to Keynesian economics than the garbage they practice today.

  • Baron Von Weinermobile||

    that's somewhat like saying physicists are fundamentalists because they cling to these crazy "laws" and "rules" and occasionally they are wrong with their theories.

  • jonohio||

    If a theory is wrong you go back to the drawing board, you don't double down. A scientist does that. Even more so for economists who destroys nations with their advice.

  • EirkKengaard||

    Robert David STEELE Vivas's review is on Amazon

  • Migrant Log Chipper||

    Holy shit, Robbie, best troll chum in weeks, if not months.

  • Moridin||

    So the Socialist Bernie says something that is almost partway intelligent and Reason repudiates him...

    Not Socialist enough it would seem.

  • Baron Von Weinermobile||

    I don't owe anyone a job. Jobs at my business do not belong to my neighbors or Merica. I will hire the best and cheapest wherever they were born. If that puts one of my lazy countrymen out of work then the world is a better place for it. At least now it will be more productive and efficient.

  • Mike Fox||

    Cause you built that bizness without any help from anybody, by god. Really great how you built the roads that transport your raw materials or product, and how you even invented the concept of travel and the first model T. And really cool how you educated that workforce that you have all on your own, taught them how to read so they could follow the directions for their job. And yeah, when you put that lazy countryman out of work, the really cool thing is he just POOF disappears. It's not like he lives next door and now can't afford to pay his rent so then I guess he's one of those bums on the corner begging that you spit at and say "get a job" and then wonder why he sneaks up behind you when you aren't looking and whacks you in the head with a pipe and steals your wallet. But by god your choice to hire an undocumented sure made the system more productive and efficient. Except for that part about having to get stitches in the back of your head and cancelling your credit cards.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Let me get this straight. You believe that no one can own anything unless they are entirely self-sufficient?

  • jonohio||

    Capitalism is a state enforced system of interaction between people and firms. If it destroys the welfare of the people it effects and government is elected to look out for the general welfare, then capitalism, i.e. the relations between people can be changed by laws.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    And when the untermensch parasites destroy all of society's wealth, their precious little workers' paradises implode from the sheer force of nature.

    Here's a question: if given the choice, would you rather live in today's most authentically right or left wing countries? Singapore or Venezuala?

  • jonohio||

    Another randroid fascist.

    Singapore is a liberal corporatist state where the economy was built up by the government.

    Sweden, Canada, Finland, Germany. Those are the states normal people look up too living in.

    People don't need owners. The people who work in the business and provide the profits are the same people who should own those businesses, democratically electing their management and sharing the profits.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Ok go live in Finland if the idea of 30 hour weeks gets you off.

    As for Singapore, there's no question it is one of the last staunchly right wing nations. It was built by Lee Kwan Yew who made sure that the red threat was properly neutralized. As a result, its citizens enjoy high gdp, strong property rights, low public debt, and one of the world's fastest financial recoveries.

    Hong Kong was pretty decent too until the proles got restless.

  • Mike Fox||

    Please. Bernie's views on immigration are Trump's? Intellectually dishonest. Trump's for building the Berlin wall across the border. Bernie isn't. Trump is publicly (more on that later) for rounding undocumenteds up and deporting them. Bernie speaks about the need for a path to citizenship, supported the Dream Act in congress, and has even said he would use executive orders more aggressively than Obama to keep families together here. Does the average Dem support totally uncontrolled immigration? No. Where Bernie's 100% right is that corporatists want a porous border providing a healthy supply of "guest workers" and undocumenteds. Both are 2nd/3rd class non-citizens who you can pay substandard wages and abuse. Complaints about working conditions? Just call immigration and replace them with a new wave of slaves tomorrow. The Kochs and their buddies are for a porous border with no reasonable path to citizenship for those who come. Bernie is for a less porous border, but if you come here you have an attainable path to citizenship. Trump characterizes an entire group as criminals and rapists and advocates sweeping them up and throwing them out regardless of how it impacts families. He talks tough about putting up fences, but that's just swagger to throw red meat to the volunteer border posses. And while he talks a big game about rounding up all the "illegals" and deporting them, his hotels are more than happy to hire undocumented workers at substandard pay.

  • R.A.W.||

    bernie is running for president of the united states, not president of the world.
    are you telling me that because somebody in mexico works for 3 dollars an hour that I have to as well because "bernie does not care about poor people" - give me a break.
    bernie wants to defend americans and that is the country is running for president of.
    when these billionaire ceo's in america start working for 3 dollars an hour and my rent goes down to 20 dollars a month maybe i will condsider it then, until then they are all hypocrites for telling me to "compete" with 3rd world wages when they will not do it themselves.if you think low wages are good for the economy then YOU start working for them, stop telling ME to do so if you think low wages are so great for the economy.
    I have NO savings because my wages are too low, do you even understand that concept?
    that the "market" can be wrong if it does not support the majority of human existence?
    hypocrites.

  • utabintarbo||

    The market is wrong, and you have no responsibility in the matter. Got it.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Stop blaming the market for your own uselessness.

    Nothing like a bernie post to bring out the pathetic proggie betas.

  • R.A.W.||

    if it was only me and not most people you might have a valid point.

    ill bet that if you lost your job and had to work for just half you would be sounding just like me.

    if you dont like american workers being paid then get out of america, many people would agree with me.

    Ill bet i can find some 3rd worlder to work your for less money than you, you are just as "useless" as the rest of us.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Of course immigration is scary if your a left wing loser who shovels shit for a living. For normal white collar people, free trade in the labor market is an obvious boon.

  • jonohio||

    You are a fucking retard. The Middle Class is dependent on organized labor to exist. Once its gone wage depression and erosion of labor rights is the result. There is no boon for anyone except the employers, and that boon is as temporary as it takes for the employees to not earn enough money to buy the shit they make.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Let me guess, you just got fired and are blowing off steam. Im sure daddy bernie will make it all better.

  • jonohio||

    I am employed. But college aged retards like you need to know how the economy actually works instead of the fantasy you picked up from wherever.
    I don't know what Bernie will achieve but I do know what he wants to do and its better than the worthless policies we have now.

  • R.A.W.||

    white collar workers are also being replaced by foriengers with h1 visas because they will work for less and putting those americans out of work too, buisnesses want more of it and lobby the politicians to make more of it - it's just the free market in practice.

    PROOF:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/bus.....fs/396149/

    if you are a white collar worker get ready to work at mcdonalds with all the other "losers" that you think you are better than because of your "education" and experience, is worthless to save you when they just want to bring somebody into the country to replace you, guys like you dont understand the way the real world works.

    shoveling shit is harder work than you do, and yet they are "unskilled" thats they need unions, which will make comeback out of neccesity for survival whether you like that or not.

  • R.A.W.||

    white collar workers are also being replaced by foriengers with h1 visas because they will work for less and putting those americans out of work too, buisnesses want more of it and lobby the politicians to make more of it - it's just the free market in practice.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/bus.....fs/396149/

    if you are a white collar worker get ready to work at mcdonalds with all the other "losers" that you think you are better than because of your "education" and experience, is worthless to save you when they just want to bring somebody into the country to replace you, guys like you dont understand the way the real world works.

    shoveling shit is harder work than you do, and yet they are "unskilled" thats they need unions, which will make comeback out of necessity for survival whether you like that or not.

  • Pope Tyrannicus XVI||

    Here's the problem, the "college aged retards" whom you despise (you're not a U Pheonix scam victim are you) are the only demographic degenerate enough to vote for that senile fucker.

    In a sane world, you'd be rotting in Guantanamo with them.

  • jonohio||

    I'm talking about daddy's money coddled morons like you who go through life thinking you deserve anything you have and do not have to give back anything to the community. You're fucking pond scum and thankfully a minority who will be consigned to history as the brainwashed victims of a parasitic network of billionaires who wanted to raise dumb kids on their sociopathic values.

    Fucking fascist piece of shit. You will get exactly what you reaped.

  • Penelope R||

    If you read the whole interview, Bernie also agrees with Reagan on economics:

    "I want to see poor people around the world see their standard of living increase, but you talk about zero sum. A lot of people tell me the American worker's going to have to become poorer so we can help poor people in China. I don't believe that for a second."

    The rich get richer, but the poor get richer too! Rising tide, floats all boats, yada, yada, yada. Inequality between poor Chinese and poor Americans isn't really important if the pie gets bigger … "trickle down" economics from a socialist ladies and gents.

  • BAS||

    I watched the Vox interview in its entirety. Sanders was clear about putting American workers first. To be fair, I am not certain he objects to helping poor people in general around the world. However, I do believe he will be very careful about how he supports workers in general, especially if he believes assisting international workers comes at the expense of the working class of America. American labor unions are at the core of Bernie's political base currently. Thus, he will be very nuanced about his support for immigration reform that would allow legitimizing any influx of cheaper labor. And, I am not certain where that leaves Bernie Sanders in attracting the Latino voters. Seems as if he might have a dilemma in the making.

  • Surfcrab64||

    I like Donald Trump for a few reasons.. First off he isn't a puppet for some special interest groups.. Whats the odds that any of us will come before the financial backers of corrupt candidates.. Trump also happens to be a great business man.. He's accomplished major building projects in months that were slated to take years.. He may be a little naive on some issues.. But I like someone that doesn't tackle something in a complicated, over thought approach.. Maybe facing it in an easy just do it and get it done mindset will actually get some results.. All the over analysing has done absolutely nothing.. He is a New Yorker so he'll be tough.. Being from NY Of course i feel he would be great for my state.. Biggest reason i like Donald is.. He's an egomaniac and egomaniacs Actually Want to succeed, show off and prove they can do something they set out to do..
    My second favorite candidate is absolutely Bernie Sanders.. He is absolutely caring, great ideas socially , he cares about the middle class which is where I want to stay.. He like Trump is not being scripted on what he says by his dark lords and masters in the wings.. He would probably heal a lot of wounds with our standing in the rest of the world.. He is intelligent and if allowed would also get things done.. I just worry about his soft nature... Damn.. Why can't we have team Sanedertrump.. I think Hilary is a liar reptile.. And Jeb is a child.. Aren't we sick of the Bush Clinton ping-pong game by now???

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