Group Chats About ICE Whereabouts Are Protected Speech. The FBI Is Investigating Anyway.
FBI Director Kash Patel pays lip service to the First and Second Amendments while casting suspicion on people who exercise their First or Second Amendment rights.
Group chats about Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents aren't illegal. But FBI Director Kash Patel doesn't seem to care.
On Monday, Patel told conservative podcaster Benny Johnson that the FBI was investigating a Signal group in which people had been chatting about ICE agents' whereabouts.
The Trump administration has said that people are doxing federal agents, employing a term once reserved for the act of publishing private information about someone's identity or address online. "Doxing" generally implies that this sharing is done with ill intent.
But there are all sorts of perfectly benign reasons why Americans—whether in the country legally or not—might want to keep tabs on where immigration authorities are going. Sharing this information allows people to protest, observe, or document ICE activity, or avoid run ins with ICE agents.
Chatting about ICE agent whereabouts is unambiguously speech that's protected by the First Amendment. So the idea that the FBI would investigate on these grounds is worrying.
"There does not appear to be any lawful basis for this investigation," said Aaron Terr, director of public advocacy for the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE). "The First Amendment generally protects the publication of legally-obtained information, including much of what the Trump administration has labeled 'doxxing.' That protection extends to using an app to share information about ICE activity."
In his interview with Johnson, Patel paid lip service to the First Amendment. Yet he also framed Signal chats pertaining to ICE whereabouts as inherently suspect and/or likely to lead to criminal actions. "You cannot create a scenario that illegally entraps and puts law enforcement in harm's way," he said, drawing a direct link between constitutionally protected activity and criminality.
Of course, trapping ICE agents and harming them would indeed be illegal. But the illegal part of that is the trapping, the plotting harm, and the harming, not merely the knowing where the agents are or chatting about where they are. And even if some individual ultimately uses the location information to inflict harm, it still would not make the mere sharing of that information illegal.
"The First Amendment has narrow exceptions for true threats and speech intended and likely to provoke imminent unlawful action, but the government cannot trigger those exceptions simply by claiming that speech puts officials in harm's way," notes Terr. "The First Amendment also does not protect criminal conspiracy, but that requires evidence of an agreement to commit a specific crime and a substantial step toward carrying it out. No such evidence appears in the Signal messages that have been made public."
The Trump administration's efforts to frame speech about ICE whereabouts as something sinister align with its broader approach to people protesting ICE deportation antics and violence, including the killing of two U.S. citizens, Renee Good and Alex Pretti. Officials have been trying to portray peaceful protests as "left wing agitation"—as if the only goal is to foment unrest and smear Republicans—or even as "domestic terrorism."
Their goal seems to be discrediting the very idea that protesting government actions is at the core of protected First Amendment speech.
Likewise, Patel and others in the Trump administration seem intent on discrediting people exercising their Second Amendment rights. In his interview with Johnson, Patel paid lip service to the fact that it's OK to bring a gun to a protest (as Pretti did) "as long as you don't incite violence or commit another crime in doing so."
But Patel followed up that comment by asking, "Why would you bring a firearm in a situation that is so volatile right now?…That is just not smart. It is just not going to lead to a good scenario."
Carrying a firearm to protect oneself and others against armed agents of the state is at the core of protected Second Amendment activity. But Patel is trying to cast it as somehow suspicious—as if it's only proper for federal agents, and not the people who might need protection against them, to be armed.
In talking about people exercising their First or Second Amendment rights in service of protesting and protecting themselves from ICE, Patel seems intent on conflating legal actions with illicit ones.
"Patel did not say which laws he thought Minnesota residents [in a Signal group chat about ICE] may have violated," notes NBC News. "An FBI spokesperson said the bureau had no further information to provide."
A quiet investigation into potential illegal activity fostered through Signal group chats would be one thing—still not great, but at least theoretically justifiable, if the FBI had reason to suspect criminal activity. The fact that Patel is openly talking about this investigation (while bungling information about its legal basis) indicates that this is more about striking fear and chilling legal speech.
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Group Chats About ICE Whereabouts Are Protected Speech. The FBI Is Investigating Anyway.
And racism is bad, to be sure. If you like your Section 230, you can keep your section 230.
Deflection, much?
Deflection what? A dishonest characterization of the chats? Seems like ENB is the one deflecting.
Yeh, you democrats deflect a lot, but we expect it.
Oh here we go, a bunch of "Free Speech Absolutists" will soon come here and declare that the ICE Watch chats are a "criminal conspiracy".
"Oh here we go, a bunch of "Free Speech Absolutists"
You mean Free Speech Absolutists like you when the FBI was mass censoring social media?
ICE Watch chats are a "criminal conspiracy"
From the sounds of it they certainly qualify. Imagine the pants shitting you would have done if this was the Proud Boys, you gigantic fucking hypocrite.
They literally discuss obstruction in the chats. A felony. So that would be a felony conspiracy.
Jeff isnt intelligent.
Or honest. Even ChatGPT has labeled him a lying, pedantic sea lion.
Looks like it’s time to break out ChatGPT again.
The people organizing attacks against ICE seem to think what they are doing is illegal:
The user indicated that he/she intends to flee the state because “WE’RE IN SO MUCH TROUBLE”
“We’re all fucked” Skye said
Reason and Bear Hunter Jeffy both agree that these people have nothing to worry about.
Sadly, I agree too.
They are protected speech - if you are not coordinating illegal activity.
Which Reeeeason continues to ignore. Just like they did with the Summer of Love protests.
Like most democrats, tReason believes that the law is whatever the fuck they feel like on any given day.
Or what Uncle Charles tells them?
Yes, as they feel what he orders them to feel.
And a conversation about how to rob a specific bank at a specific time is constitutionally protected...right up until you attempt to violate the law by robbing the bank. JFC you are a stupid Leftist cunt ENB, they are actively talking about how to commit federal crimes and following through on those conversations with action.
You are wrong or lying. Everyone knows that a conversation specifically planning to rob a bank may be a crime whether you carry out the plan or not. It would be a lot harder to prove criminal intent if the conversation is simply speculative, or perhaps if the discussion was to flesh out your novel about fictional characters robbing a bank, but investigators would clearly be acting within the scope of their constitutional authority to investigate a tip, for example, that such a conversation had been taking place. Charges are brought all the time as a result of such conspiracies.
Your own response rebuts you with that "may be a crime" because it also may not be a crime. Up until you start putting the plan in action it's still protected because it's just talk, speculation and what-if as you admit. Now the moment you buy that first tool to carry out the plan you might be in trouble, depending on the tool, and every step you take makes the plan more conspiracy of crime and less protected hypothetical speculation.
But there are all sorts of perfectly benign reasons why Americans—whether in the country legally or not
Illegals and legal immigrants are not Americans you progressive cunt.
I wonder if ENB views rape the same way. No borders should mean no borders, right?
Remember when the Biden FBI was illegally censoring millions of people on social media behind the scenes, or spying illegally on journalists, or pretending PTA parents were terrorists and ENB didn't give a fuck?
But investigating DNC operatives as they target officers is suddenly a problem.
Bingo.
Reason writers objected to Biden and Obama and Bush doing that too. But try to pretend that Reason doesn't object to bullying by all administrations, not just the Trump administration if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. The rest of us aren't buying your bullshit.
Was that during their "muh private companies" phase, or well after even the NYT had to make admissions about the Twitter files?
Why does your team consistently resort to lying?
By “the rest of us”, are you referring to your Democrat Klavern?
Fuck off, they were fully supportive of it with their "private companies" defense of complying with "requested" censorship regimes.
Carrying a firearm to protect oneself and others against armed agents of the state is at the core of protected Second Amendment activity.
I see an armed agent of the state:
So Anyway, I Started Blasting
>>Group Chats About ICE Whereabouts Are Protected Speech.
yes but the liberty haters of Supreme Courts past carved out exceptions so there are exceptions.
This isn't all that complicated, although Federal officials might want to confuse you. A criminal investigation is only allowed after evidence of a crime has been provided to investigators. AFTER the crime has been committed. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime in and of itself, and if law enforcement agents have evidence of a conspiracy to commit a crime in progress, they have the authority to investigate it. They may only search or arrest someone after presenting evidence of probable cause from their investigation to a judge and obtaining a detailed search or arrest warrant. In this case a possible scenario might be a Signal chat where one participant gives the location of law enforcement agents to another participant and suggests that they go there to block access on the street where the agents are located. Investigators could then detain the suspects on the scene, and use the Signal chat as evidence of the conspiracy to commit the crime as well as any crimes that might have been committed at the scene.
The stupidity knows no bounds here.
Typical Reason straw man article, bravely challenging the government on an issue Reason itself fabricated: Group Chats about ICE wherabouts may in fact be protected speech but notice that the author isn't accusing the government of suppressing the speech or prosecuting it, but for merely INVESTIGATING it. Some of it may be illegal, for example, if it includes computer hacked information, but that's what an investigation is for, to determine the facts. But to Reason merely investigating a possible crime is an infringement of 1st Amendment rights. What idiots.
To be fair, I think the article was intended to point out and object to Patel's ignorance (or lying about) a subject that he ought to be an expert on to be qualified to hold the official position he has been Peter Principled into.
Did it only discuss locations ENB? Or did it include planned obstruction?
These protestors have harassed innocent families, issued threats against non ICE, etc.
Reason is so dishonest about this.
The protestors AND Kash Patel can be wrong about some things and correct about others at the same time. You don't have to agree with the protestors about their political beliefs generally or their assaults on innocent bystanders to agree with their objections to ICE tactics and abuses. You don't have to totally disagree with every aspect of ICE's mission to disagree with mass roundups and arresting innocent legal aliens without a proper warrant. That's why some of us try to discuss the issues while others knee-jerk the party line without evidence of any thought having been involved.
The Marxists are free to believe anything they want. Just so long as they don’t interfere with ICE in any way nor threaten them or their
families. Which is exactly what they’re doing.
Given the democrat is rabid, violent criminality, it’s a testament to ICE personnel’s restraint that only two violent democrat insurrectionists are dead so far.
Group Chats About ICE Whereabouts Are Protected Speech. The FBI Is Investigating Anyway.
Wouldn't be the first time the FBI investigated protected speech, but you wouldn't know that from reading Reason.
Elizabeth Nolan Brown, It's not quite cut and dry as you pretend.
Yes, they have the right to say what they will, however if they are plotting and planning to obstruct a federal law enforcement operation it is a crime. Protesting from the sidewalk, recording video is legal. Creating barriers, obstructing traffic, hauling trash bins or parking sideways in the middle of the street are illegal.
Should the chats be investigated, yes they should. If and only if there are violations of law should anyone be prosecuted. Free speech does not mean that you are above being questioned or investigated.
It was not that long ago that MAGAs claimed that Trump's month long illegal attempt to overthrow an election culminating in the first attempted coup in US history was all "Free Speech".
MAGAs are traitorous shits. Trump's criminal trial will be the second most watched even in US history.
Fuck off and die.
(Is that the reaction you hoped for?)