Judge to Mangione Prosecutors: Not All Political Murder Is Legally 'Terrorism'
The latest ruling reminds us that terrorism statutes are mostly redundant.
A New York judge on Tuesday dismissed two charges of terrorism against Luigi Mangione, the man allegedly behind the fatal shooting of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson last December. The decision came during Mangione's pretrial hearing earlier this week, which was the 27-year-old's first court appearance in five months, according to Newsweek. Justice Gregory Carro of the New York City Criminal Court ruled that while prosecutors offered sufficient evidence to support several homicide charges, including second-degree murder, there was insufficient evidence to support a terrorism charge under state law.
Mangione had previously been charged with first-degree murder in furtherance of an act of terrorism and second-degree murder as a crime of terrorism. Prosecutors argued that Mangione's targeted assassination of Thompson was motivated by perceived injustices in the U.S. health care system and that Mangione intended to "violently broadcast a social and political message to the public at large," citing statements he made at the time of his arrest, as well as writings that were recovered from his personal belongings. Despite concurring that Mangione's actions likely had ideological motives, Carro stated, "there is no indication that a murder committed for ideological reasons…fits within the definition of terrorism," explaining that terrorism requires "a desire to terrorize the public, inspire widespread fear, engage in a broader campaign of violence, or to conspire with organized terrorist groups."
Had Carro sided with prosecutors, the terrorism designation would have "boosted the 'degree' of murder into the first-degree range," which would have "enhanced his sentencing exposure," explains Madeleine Lippey, a public defender and trial attorney. Mangione still faces one count of second-degree murder and eight weapons-related charges under New York law, convictions which could result in a sentence of 25 years to life, reports CBS News. Accompanying these are additional state charges in Pennsylvania, and federal charges that include "two counts of stalking, one firearms offense, and murder through the use of a firearm," writes ABC. These federal charges make Mangione eligible for the death penalty, and U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi has publicly encouraged prosecutors to pursue capital punishment in the case. Proceedings are scheduled to resume on December 1.
Legal analysts say the ruling narrows the scope of the case and reinforces statutory limits on how terrorism laws can be applied. Jonathan Hafetz, a professor at Seton Hall Law School, told NBC News that the ruling constitutes "a well-reasoned decision." He added that "broadly labeling violence, even horrific violence as in this case, as terrorism can be misused for political purposes and have a chilling consequence on free expression."
Terrorism laws in the U.S. have often been stretched beyond their intent—used not just to punish organized plots, but to stack charges in politically charged cases. In recent years, efforts to expand domestic terrorism laws—spurred by the half-hearted putsch at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021—have raised concerns about their potential use against protest movements. This pattern of applying terrorism labels to politically motivated acts has resurfaced in the wake of the September 10 assassination of conservative activist and commentator Charlie Kirk—another high-profile killing with apparent political motivations—which some public figures and media outlets have already labeled as an act of terrorism.
The instinct to label politically motivated murders as terrorism reflects a broader trend of using expansive charges to match a crime's perceived moral weight, even when the effects are mostly symbolic. The terrorism label does not make society any safer because, as Reason's Matthew Petti points out, "killing and kidnapping, of course, are already illegal." All it does is offer the state another rhetorical weapon. Mangione's case reflects this reality. Whether he is guilty of terrorism or not is functionally irrelevant, since the underlying homicide and firearms charges remain intact, as do the severe penalties they inevitably carry.
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How many cities will burn in riots when he dies?
Judging by the way the Left has taken such a shine to him, all of them.
Even if some trolls praise him, nobody is going to riot for him. How many riots did we get about Ms. Babbit, the J6 Martyr of the internet? She was politically murdered, right? And very popular with internet commenters.
The right doesn’t riot. That’s why.
Chumby is mistaken in writing, "The right doesn’t riot." E.g.:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/photography/interactive/2021/january-6-photos/
That's not a riot. Compare that to the "mostly peaceful" protests and what you're calling a riot here was much less destructive and less violent and chaotic.
You're just a lying Leftist with no actual standards, just a friend/enemy distinction.
SJin, I asked Microsoft Copilot for prominent right-wing figures who explicitly referred to the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol as a “riot” and condemned it. Are they "lying Leftist[s]"?
---
Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
> “The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the president and other powerful people. And they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of the first branch of the federal government.”
He repeatedly referred to the events as a “violent riot” in Senate speeches following the attack.
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
> “Count me out. Enough is enough. I’ve tried to be helpful. But when this riot happened, it was one of the most disgraceful things I’ve ever seen.”
— Statement on January 6, 2021
Representative Mike Gallagher (R-WI)
> “This is a riot. This is not a protest. This is not okay.”
— Live interview from Capitol Hill during the attack
Representative Adam Kinzinger (R-IL)
> “This is a coup attempt. The president is inciting a riot to overturn the election.”
— Tweet on January 6, 2021
---
These statements were made in real time or shortly after the attack, and they used the word “riot” explicitly to describe the violence and lawlessness. Some of these figures later faced political backlash for maintaining their condemnation.
So you backed off the on lie of an armed and deadly insurrection and admit that the vast majority of people arrested for misdemeanor trespassing should not have been treated as they were?
NnN, I don't see how your comment is relevant. Chumby asserted that "the right doesn't riot". I supplied an example of a right-wing riot. SJin called me a "lying Leftist" for calling the January 6 riot at the U. S. Capitol a riot. To counter SJin's assertion. I gave Microsoft Copilot's list of several examples of indubitably non-leftist Republican politicians who specifically called the riot a "riot". Unless SJin wants to call all these Republicans "lying Leftist[s]", SJin will have displayed incoherence.
Fomented by democrats, Pelosi and of course the FBI.
The Right is civilized. The Left are barely human.
False equivalence.
You mistake progressive leftist democrat marxists socialist communists and anarchists with law abiding citizens on the right.
Let's see, the killer came from out of state to stalk and kill a man. He etched political messages on the bullet casings intended to warn other insurance execs, but the judge did not deem this terrorism or first degree murder. Maybe by the time the judge is done he'll have nibbled the charges down to simple jaywalking.
What's with all these progs writing their bullshit on the bullet casings? They had to pick the idea up from somewhere.
It doesn't really "send" the message. If you wanted to do that, the message would need to be on the bullet itself. I'm not convinced the message would survive the being "sent". Not to mention the writing would need to be very small or very short. Not really enough space to make a very good argument.
Don’t forget that progs are kind of dumb.
Its all cosplay.
Maybe they don't know what the casings are? Actually, some of them legitimately don't.
Ground crews sometimes mark munitions to be deployed from aircraft. But maybe there is a pop culture reference that the current group of violent actors are honoring in some sick form of pastiche.
Yes, and WW2 soldiers used to write stuff on their artillery shells (and bombs), but these progs wouldn't know anything about that.
Maybe they label their Dunker when attending a furry reenactment (Battle of Dunker Hill) so they know which one is theirs at the end of the insertions.
The Battle of Dunker Hill!!!!!!
10/10- Would laugh again
The British are coming!
You underestimate the Left's march through the institutions- including the military.
Which is why we must get rid of them.
https://www.newsweek.com/nikki-haley-mesage-israeli-bomb-sparks-outrage-1905578
They seem themselves as a military resistance. Just like armed services wrote messages on their tanks and planes in ww2.
That must be how they internally justify their terror activities.
The earliest time I can think of that happening was when that guy shot up a mosque in NZ. I'm sure it's happened before, but that is the first time I personally saw such a thing.
Trump? Peaky Blinders?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/20/what-black-jack-pershing-can-teach-us-about-fighting-terrorists-215509/
https://www.quora.com/When-has-there-been-a-photo-or-evidence-presented-in-history-that-a-bullet-meant-for-someone-literally-had-their-name-etched-on-it#:~:text=The%20trope%20has%20been%20used,with%20the%20intended%20target's%20name.
Don’t you have a CPUSA and/or antifa meeting to attend?
Are those two not examples of cartridge/bullet messaging?
Thought of another, though can't remember the movie. Carving a cross on the tip of bullet to kill vampires, I believe was a recent trope.
First degree murder - maybe, maybe not. It depends on exactly how that crime is defined. In most jurisdictions, first degree murder would be a slam dunk based on what we know of the facts so far. But under New York's definition? Who knows.
Terrorism - definitely not. That's a very specific crime. Not every murder, not even every politically motivated murder meets that definition. Stretching the definition just dilutes and weakens the term when real terrorism happens.
The statute defines the crime of terrorism as any act that is committed with the intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion and that results in one or more of the following: (a) the commission of a specified offense, (b) the causing of a specified injury or death, (c) the causing of mass destruction or widespread contamination, or (d) the disruption of essential infrastructure.
Seems a and b are satisfied. He had political intent.
https://criminaldefense.1800nynylaw.com/new-york-penal-code/ny-penal-law-490-25-crime-of-terrorism/
A and b are satisfied but the "political intent" is not. At least, not without redefining those prefatory clauses so broadly that they make every crime where the criminal alleges a political motivation into "terrorism". Again, that dilutes the word and robs us of the ability to apply it to acts of true terrorism.
To make the point more clearly, I think the laws against defacing Pride crosswalks to be pointless, counterproductive and stupid. (For the sake of argument here, the crosswalk was painted in a Pride pattern last week by another political activist so issues of the government's own speech don't apply). I want to paint it over. If either I or the original painter put up some road cones to stop traffic while we worked, that satisfies d of your definition above. And both I and the original painter definitely have the intent of influencing the policy of a government through intimidation. Painting someone else's property (in this case, the road) is a crime - specifically vandalism. Your expansive reading of the intent clauses would turn that simple act of civil disobedience all the way into terrorism. That can't be right. And the judge was correct to reject that reasoning when the prosecutor tried to push it.
The judge was following the law as written. This is a simple murder and weapons case. MAGA will insist that the weapons charges be dropped because they infringe on the murderer's right to keep and bear arms.
Who has fought for him to keep his gun rights? LMAO
Y'all are so obsessed with imagining scenarios that never come about.
Cite?
Are you basing that on anything? Or are you just showcasing your stupidity again?
With him in jail after the first offense and no group affiliation to carry on his goals it's hard to be terrorized by an incarcerated whack.
New York has a very narrow definition of first degree murder. It is reserved for murder against a police officer/judge/witness, or as part of an act of torture or terror, or during the commission of another felony, or while the perpetrator was already serving a life sentence. Most cases are second degree murder in New York.
If the judge tosses out the terrorism charge, the first degree murder charge has to go too. Apparently the judge didn't think that corporate CEOs are part of the public, when he ruled that the murder wasn't intended to terrorize the public.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_New_York_law
Personally, I think murder should be murder, and adding hate crimes or terrorism charges on top of that is redundant. The issue here is that a murder conviction in New York doesn't carry the death penalty, so the Feds wanted to apply terror charges (for which they appeared to have a reasonably strong case).
I agree with the judge. Terrorism carries the implications of an act of political resistance, whereas Mangione is an evil fuck who murdered a man who had done him no harm for cheap kicks and bragging points.
Hang him (metaphorically) as a common murderer.
He certainly seemed to think he was performing an act of political resistance, did he not? Let's take him at his word.
Exactly. He intended to spread fear which is terrorism.
And it was pre meditated and planned. How is this not first degree murder even if not terrorism?
I disagree. Mangione's act was pretty much the platonic definition of terrorism. The entire purpose was to commit an act of violence that would terrorize an entire industry into making policy changes.
The Charlie Kirk murder, which is definitely deserving of the death penalty is more of an edge case. It seemed to be specifically targeted at a hatred of a specific individual that was hated on a personal level by the killer.
+1
The case that Kirk was individually targeted in a conventional homicide or spurious act is much stronger than the case that Thompson's was done specifically to influence public behavior or policy.
And I say that as someone who thinks Kirk was shot to influence public opinion/behavior. (But also that both of them killed someone on camera and that a killing is a killing, so hang them both, literally).
They will both be put on death row.
No death penalty in NY.
How uncivilized.
And since thst shooting other democrats have been threatening other CEOs.
And applauding and lionizing the first CEO murderer, encouraging others to do the same.
This is why Trump was right to declare antifa as a terrorist organization. That gets us one step closer to designating the entire democrat party as a terror group.
I don't know. I tend to think that "terrorism" is acts of wanton and indiscriminate violence to terrorize a whole population. Generally without specific people targeted, but rather with the intent to cause lots of damage all at once in a shocking way. Of course, for a criminal charge, all that matters is what the law says. So my idea of how the word is defined isn't really relevant here.
I recall CEOs of other companies taking their picture/information down from their company websites after the shooting. I'm sure they felt pretty terrorized by Luigi's actions.
^Yup^ The consequences of the act must be reviewed and investigated. The reaction speaks to whether terror was inflicted or not...
Why only metaphorically? Seems like a good case to hang him for real.
This is an odd comment. Mangione clearly assassinated him as part of his political beliefs. Further those beliefs form the basis of the left's ideology. So when you say it's not part of a political resistance what do you mean?
Yeah, I wasn't being clear. I was thinking an organized group with an ideology rather than just some gaslit dipshit.
While true he wasn't given orders I'm not sure why that distinction would matter. It's always been part of extremist ideology to inspire "Lone Wolves" while simultaneously denying involvement. Since the left has constantly made this accusation against the right we cannot accept them turning around now to claim linking hate campaigns with actions is illegitimate.
One way to identify when this link exists is how the perp is treated after the fact. For example the left cheered on various left wing terrorism acts in the 60s and 70s by groups like The Weathermen and The Black Panthers. We know because the left gave them rewarding sinecures in their institutions after the fact [Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn, Angela Davis] and otherwise venerated their acts as heroic. This is exactly what we see with left wingers buying Mangione shorts [shades of Che] and celebrating when charges are reduced.
He is not going to be convicted.
It is time for red states to stop indicting ANYBODY who does anything bad to a leftist.
I don’t care how it’s done. I just want him executed. Unfortunately, thanks to democrats, that won’t happen.
"...explaining that terrorism requires "a desire to terrorize the public, inspire widespread fear, engage in a broader campaign of violence, or to conspire with organized terrorist groups.""
I suppose the judge does not consider insurance executives to be members of the public. There is a common thread that the legal infrastructure of Democrat controlled jurisdictions downplay Left wing political violence as a problem.
Well stated.
That's not even what the NY law regarding terror requires.
It's not just Healthcare CEOs though, it's anyone who participates in or benefits from commerce. In other words, just about everyone presumably except those who specifically reject capitalism in favor of socialism.
It's not that they are not members of the public, it's that they are not the entirety (or even a major subset) of the public at large.
Gang members are also part of the public but rubbing out a couple of rival gang members is not (or should not be) enough to turn a street shooting into "terrorism" even if you definitely intended to inspire fear in that rival gang.
Rival gang members are not random innocent victims. The DC snipers faced terrorism charges for shooting random innocent people going about their day to day lives.
Killing a politically selected innocent victim seems even more straightforward as an example of terrorism.
Absolutely. People see this regardless if the act ignorant or not.
Did Mangione, at any point in time, put boots on a desk?
Only counts if the desk belonged to an elite Party member in good standing.
But wasn't Mangione's goal to terrorize health insurance executives into not denying claims etc? Or more broadly, terrorize all executives into not doing things that might anger the public? This was hardly about dislike of one particular man.
The judge is trying his best to deny that terrorism is not just mass violence.
And also deny that citizens are just as capable of these acts as foreigners.
The judge is doing his best to play to the Soros agenda and wash a disgusting political terrorist act allegedly perpetrated by progressive leftist as simply an aggressive occurrence that happens daily across America that anyone would commit...
Well I don't like these terrorism enhancements. But I don't see the judge's logic here. He accepts that the murder was ideological then claims that it was not intended to terrorize or instill fear etc. Seems to me that an ideology requires more than a single adherent and as we have seen, a significant number of people celebrate this man and this murder as furthering an ideological agenda. The killer received no personal gain and had no personal connection to the victim. The only purpose it served was to further his ideology via a public event. Like I said I don't have a problem with dumping the charges but I really think this judge is wrong on the law.
I'm with you on that. The reason a crime is committed does not alter its impact in a way that is significant enough to enhance the charges. That said, on its face this crime fits the legal definition of terrorism. The judge is showing uncommon restraint.
Yep. Murder is the crime and "terrorism" is a nebulous charge that shouldn't exist. As it stands here, it's hard to argue that Mangione didn't intend to commit a terrorist act. The judge and writer are being intentionally obtuse.
Much like the obtuseness of "AntiFa does not have a central organization, therefore it does not exist".
Antifa does not exist other than in the delusions of MAGA Cult Members.
Ok faggot. So explain how all these people just happen to show up at exactly the same place at exactly the same time, dressed exactly the same, using coordinated tactics and are all provided with the same weapons.
Just a coincidence, right?
And Charlie doesn’t respond. Typical. The worthless pinko retard can’t back up his bullshit claims, as usual.
Of course it exists. Here's the website and there are numerous videos online showing them in action.
https://rosecityantifa.org/
Again we see left wingers assert whatever they believe advances their political interests, reality is simply not a consideration.
A website, sure, but do they have a membership card?
So, if we wipe it out, no harm done.
Good to know.
Given that it does not exist, any casualties would ALSO not exist.
And yet somehow they rally in all black riot gear to confront right wing protestors who deny they exist.
charliehall.
Is.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Fuck off and die asswipe
If it’s not organized then how can it be an organization? If anything it’s an idea. And a stupid one at that. Which means that Trump and his defenders believe thoughtcrime is death. Not a surprise being that that’s not the first or last thing they will take from Orwell. They won’t stop until Trump is declared to be Big Brother.
Do you enjoy showcasing your utter stupidity on this fashion?
It is organized, just not centrally. Every group or organization is just an idea. The US government is just an idea. In reality, it's just a bunch of people acting in certain ways. Any individual acting as part of the US government could decide at any time to act however they want.
I don't know how you can look at the sorts of actions Antifa assholes engage in and say it's not organized. I'd argue that they are very well organized. They know what they are doing and they deliberately avoid having any central organization so that it is harder to pin them down and identify who is involved in and responsible for their acts of violence and disruption. If there was a President of Antifa and a member list, it would be easy to bust them all for conspiracy. So of course they don't do that. It's basic commie revolutionary tactics that have been well documented for ages.
If anything it’s an idea.
Sarc is wrong again, but notice he's always trying to minimize anything that damages the left.
Movement:
Organized Activity & Society
Social movement: A group of people working together toward a common objective, aiming to promote or attain a particular end, as seen in movements for social change.
It's insanity that Reason continues to push that line.
Agreed. I objected to creating a whole new class of "terrorism" law after 9/11 as a redudancy, but if we're going to have a special class, this would fall under it.
a desire to terrorize the public, inspire widespread fear, engage in a broader campaign of violence, or to conspire with organized terrorist groups. The "or" suggests that simply leaving every insurance exec constantly looking over his shoulder waiting for the next nut-job proggie to take a shot at him meets the criteria of inspiring widespread fear.
As said, that would include every would-be hood. Dump the class of law and hang Luigi for simple murder.
To me terrorism implies some sort of ongoing ideological threat dedicated to change policy/politics somehow. So to me the Unibomber would qualify but Mangione doesn't precisely because he was caught and wasn't part of a group that could carry on his level of "activism"
The Unibomber was much more of a lone wolf than the Ivy League CEO-murderer and his legion of fans.
So, it looks like the terrorism charge was just tacked on in hopes of elevating it to first degree murder.
Apparently premeditated murder is only a 2nd degree murder charge in NY. To get first degree, you have to kill a cop, or hire a hit man. Or commit multiple murders.
And to get the death penalty. Even first degree murder has no death penalty in New York.
It’s NY. Odds are he only serves 15 years. Unless a future Democrat governor commutes his sentence.
Look. Just because be wrote political messages on the cartridges doesn't mean the act was political. - retard leftist judge
Me waiting for another retard leftist to tell us it wasn't murder cuz CEO's aren't people.
Or yet another retard leftist to tell us it didn't even happen.
Charlie is that retard. Just like how he says antifa doesn’t exist.
It's a New York judge.
Before this is over they'll be saying Trump did it.
False flag. Trump was involved to get sympathy for CEOs.
- megatard Tony
Tony likely has PMS NOW on his TV 24 hours a day.
"a desire to terrorize the public, inspire widespread fear, engage in a broader campaign of violence, or to conspire with organized terrorist groups."
I'm curious about the logical and legal merits on this. It doesn't sound like all conditions need to apply. Here's how I look at each condition.
1. A Desire to Terrorize the Public
I don't think he meets this condition. He clearly desired to terrorize a specific population (people who work for health insurance companies), but I doubt that constitutes the "public", even if a large number of people work in this sector.
2. Inspire Widespread Fear
I think he meets this condition easily. He wants everyone involved with health insurance to think they could be next. He views ordinary business practices as evil deserving of murder. If that doesn't mean the definition of widespread fear, I would love to know what does.
3. Engage in a Broader Campaign of Violence
This one is very vague and needs clarity, but he's clearly trying to inspire others to follow in his footsteps. Does inspiring count as engaging, or does that mean an existing campaign of violence against health insurance workers?
4. Conspire with Organized Terrorist Groups
I don't believe he did so. Seems like a solo actor.
I think 2 is the strongest point and I would love to know the court's reasoning on why terrorism warrants dismissal. A lay reading suggests terrorism is very appropriate here.
I think 2 is the strongest point and I would love to know the court's reasoning on why terrorism warrants dismissal. A lay reading suggests terrorism is very appropriate here.
IMO, 1 and 2 are related if not degenerate. If he were hoping to inspire or terrorize the 13th Street Bowling League and/or the members by name, there might be a case to be had that it's not the public. Otherwise, to the second point, it doesn't really matter if Jews or Insurance company employees constitute 1 or 5 or 10% of the population as much as he was looking to inspire fear in people not aimed for or targeted.
As above, though, I'm more than willing to stick with "A murder is a murder." and put the futzing over terrorism aside, but the issue is more systemic, the court that set terrorism aside is the same court that would slap him on the wrist while patting him on the back.
He was pretty successful in generating fear among health care executives.
It was clearly an attempt to use assassination as an instrument to compel a change in policy by private entities. I am not how this does not meet the definition.
It was clearly a lone wacko who got caught.
A lone killer, but an entire leftist collective cheering the killing.
Same when Trump was shot; same when Kirk was killed.
But let's hear your excuses for political assassinations.
I do recall you being quite giddy when some nutjob took a hammer to Mr. Pelosi's head. Just has to be a prominent Democrat or someone associated with one for you to excuse it.
No Drunky, the attack was horrible. The ensuing leftist coverup was hilarious. But you’re too afraid to respond to that.
I do recall you being quite giddy when some nutjob took a hammer to Mr. Pelosi's head.
cite?
He won’t respond. The only leftist shitweasel here who responds is Pedo Jeffy. And all he does is lie and deflect endlessly as he loses the argument.
I read the judge's ruling and I think it's way off. Here are the points I want to emphasize.
"There was no evidence presented that defendant made any demands of government or sought any particular governmental policy change, let alone that he did so by intimidation or coercion."
This just sounds like bs from the judge. In the context of this discussion, the judge wrote that "...more explicit excerpts from defendant's writings in which he states that his goal is to spread a "message" and "win public support" about "everything wrong with our health system.""
How can you spread a message and win public support about problems with our health system and NOT involve the government? The two are inextricably linked.
The judge did write about what I suspected. In prior cases, subgroups of the "public" does not constitute the public. Ex. rival drug gangs in the area. The public has to mean everyone. The judge also has concerns about expanding the definition of terrorism. He writes a lot about a "commonly understood" definition of terrorism and how nebulous it is, which gets at the suspicion many others have had that terrorism statutes only apply to Muslims.
"Moreover, as in Morales, even if this court were to find the employees of one company to constitute a "civilian population," there was no evidence presented that defendant's conscious objective or intent was to intimidate or coerce the employees of United Healthcare"
Check this entire paragraph. It's on page 8 of the ruling. This judge is absolutely full of shit. He thinks that drawing attention to the greed of the health insurance industry is not terroristic intent. What is it then? How stupid can you be to suggest that he only wanted people to consider his opinions and do nothing with that information? If that were the case, why kill the UnitedHealthcare CEO? Why not Charlie Kirk? The intent is so plainly obvious. Judge must not be seeing the forest because the trees are in the way.
"The People suggest that the element of intimidation and coercion can be met because some UHC employees felt fearful after the murder, and some UHC employees received threats. But putting aside that some employees received threats even before the murder (one so serious that investigators traveled to another state to investigate), and every murder has the potential to induce some degree of fear - for example, a random murder in the subway will cause riders to feel fearful about riding the subway - that fails to establish that this was the defendant's intent, or that the conduct fits within the statutory definition of terrorism."
Reinforcing the bs from this judge. I'm curious why they even focused on UHC. Even Luigi didn't. His own words say "industry." What about the other companies?
IANAL but something tells me they will find a way to reinstate these charges. I think this assassination absolutely fits the bill for terrorism. If it isn't terrorism, what is it then?
In prior cases, subgroups of the "public" does not constitute the public. Ex. rival drug gangs in the area. The public has to mean everyone.
"Public" can never include everyone because terrorists always believe some people will be inspired by their act.
Ok, so almost everyone then? Is there a clear definition of the public? Did past legislators ever feel the need to define it? I would argue the entire health insurance industry is broad enough to constitute the public.
I don't know what he's trying to get at but to me it's not important. Terrorism is using violence against non-combatants to motivate changes in behavior or policy. Mangione clearly acted for exactly that reason. I don't think the "public" requirement is appropriate.
Public generally means non government entities.
Terrorism by the KKK was largely just targeting blacks.
Well you did the hard work here and thanks. If this judge wants to challenge the prosecution's interpretation of the law or the legality of it go ahead. But a little voice inside my head wonders why this particular case is a good vehicle to do so. A plain reading of the law, at least by me, indicates that the prosecution's charges could easily fit at least one of the criteria required. I don't know if this judge is left or right or otherwise but I have to wonder why he wants to die on this hill with this defendant and this crime.
“- for example, a random murder in the subway will cause riders to feel fearful about riding the subway-“
No way dude. Right wing culture war bigotry is what keeps people from using mass transit.
^jeff actually said this. Lol.
You just described the democrat party.
Most commenters objecting here are too lazy to read the legal definition of first degree murder in NY.
So I will make it easy for you:
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27
I intentionally omitted the circumstances that didn't apply. For example, this wasn't the commission of a robbery. The circumstances I included dictate 1st° murder.
1. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the
death of such person or of a third person; and
(a) Either:
(xiii) the victim was killed in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
(b) The defendant was more than eighteen years old at the time of the
commission of the crime.
Aggravated Murder is a less severe crime:
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.26
And Mangione is being charged with second degree murder:
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.25
You democrats want to go easy on him so he doesn’t have to spend much time in prison. I’m sure he is a hero to you, just like Kirk’s assassin, and the ones who tried to assassinate our president.
New York has a very strange definition of first degree murder to start with. The original definition broadly speaking was based on the concept of "cold blood" - that is, premeditated and planned out and, possibly, with the intent of getting away with it to avoid punishment. Not only does the "terrorism" charge not enhance public safety (which is a questionable part of the legal framework anyway) but conceptually it is only an element of motive for the murder. The only purpose of a terrorism law in the first place might be to criminalize members of a terrorist organization who would not otherwise be chargeable legally as conspirators before or after the fact, similar to the purpose of RICO laws.
Also the original definition of terrorism was that the crimes the terrorists committed were intended to further and ultimately achieve a political goal. So if the goal of the criminals was to extort money or to carry out a personal vendetta, it was not considered to be terrorism.
How is killing an industry executive political, much less an act of terror?
Playing devil's advocate, your anarchist organization might be trying to make it seem so dangerous to be a corporate executive that no one will want to risk her life to be one, undermining the corporate infrastructure and causing it to collapse. So in this case the question was is the murderer sending a personal message to the industry about how mad he is about the way health insurance treats people; or was this part of a concerted effort to destroy the insurance industry generally?
Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. And, the more I think about it, pretty much everything is considered political now; at least by those who think there is a political and/or government solution to everything, wrong as they may be.
Democrats are either terrorists, or support them.
These federal charges make Mangione eligible for the death penalty
Let him out and he'll really be eligible for the death penalty. An extrajudicial one, sure. But if they want to make sure that justice is served, the best thing they can do is find him guilty and put him away for the rest of his life.
Same goes for Kirk's assassin. If they play games here, and bastardize justice instead of serving it, the consequences will be far worse than if they'd just done their job.
Kirk’s assassin will get the death penalty. Executing him is the real battle. Idaho is holding Thomas Creech, the man who murdered (among dozens of others) my uncle. He has been on death row for 43 years, with no end in sight. Creech even murdered another inmate during his incarceration.
This is another reason to get rid of the democrats.
Is there some kind of rule saying we can only charge one person with Domestic Terrorism at a time?
Like if we are going to show leniency to anyone, I would say the Charlie Kirk shooter is slightly more warranted just because he did turn himself in
Nah, kill him. It’s a lot cheaper than feeding him for the next 60 years. Then we only have to feed him for 30:years.
"Judge to Mangione Prosecutors: Not All Political Murder Is Legally 'Terrorism'."
Tell that to Abraham Lincoln and Julius Ceaser.