Cocaine Hippos, Monkey Copyrights, and a Horse Named Justice: The Debate Over Animal Personhood
Are human courts the best venue to protect wild animals?

In January, six justices of the Colorado Supreme Court unanimously ruled that five elderly African elephants were not people.
That may not sound like an issue that needs six justices to resolve, but courts around the country have found themselves handling such questions.
The Colorado Supreme Court did not hear from the elephants directly. They heard from the Nonhuman Rights Project, which filed a habeas corpus petition on behalf of the pachyderms, arguing that their confinement in a Colorado Springs zoo violated their right to bodily liberty.
Over the past decade, the Nonhuman Rights Project and several other animal rights groups have waged a novel campaign to extend legal "personhood" to animals, which would allow them to be plaintiffs in civil lawsuits. Many of these cases have attempted to free large, charismatic animals such as elephants and chimpanzees from zoos under the great writ of habeas corpus, which allows individuals to challenge unlawful imprisonment.
Other courts around the world have recognized fundamental rights for animals. In Pakistan, the Islamabad High Court declared in 2020, in the case of a shackled and mistreated elephant, that it "is a right of each animal, a living being, to live in an environment that meets the latter's behavioral, social and physiological needs." In 2022, Ecuador's Constitutional Court ruled that animals were subject to "rights of nature" enshrined in the country's constitution. And last year, indigenous leaders of New Zealand, Tahiti, and the Cook Islands signed a treaty recognizing whales as legal persons.
Critics scoff that this amounts to little more than absurdist lawfare and that legal recognition of animal personhood would almost certainly empower busybody environmentalists—and might not even improve conditions for the animals. There are also public pressure campaigns and existing legal avenues that could improve animal welfare without attempting to shift one of the bedrock principles of Western law.
But the question at the heart of these cases—whether a nonhuman entity can have a cognizable liberty interest—has surprisingly deep implications, not just for animals but for human freedom and flourishing. Research into artificial intelligence (AI) may eventually run into similar ethical considerations.
"There's a lot of tension because I think that the law just hasn't really caught up with our own sensibilities," says Christopher Berry, executive director of the Nonhuman Rights Project. "Primarily courts are trying to police a boundary between humans and animals and not recognizing that things don't always fall into a neat dichotomy."
Pablo's Cocaine Hippos
So far, the only animals that have ever been declared legal persons by a U.S. court in any limited sense are a pod of invasive hippopotamuses in Colombia that escaped from the estate of the cocaine cartel lord Pablo Escobar.
The animals are the descendants of four hippos that Escobar illegally imported in the 1980s. Unsurprisingly, after Escobar's death no one wanted to claim responsibility for a bunch of full-grown hippos, so the animals were left to their own devices. They migrated to nearby rivers and began eating and reproducing.
After several decades, more than 150 gigantic, ill-tempered, territorial animals were tearing up local waterways. The Colombian government finally began developing plans to cull its rogue hippo population, but in 2020 a Colombian lawyer sued on behalf of the hippos, arguing they should be sterilized instead of euthanized.
The Animal Legal Defense Fund (ALDF), a California-based animal rights group, asked the U.S. District Court in Cincinnati to grant "interested persons" status to the hippos in order to depose two Ohio experts on wildlife sterilization to testify on their behalf. The judge granted the request.
This had no practical effect on the hippos' legal status in either the U.S. or Colombia. Colombia's Constitutional Court ruled in 2020 that a bear named Chucho did not possess fundamental rights and therefore could not invoke habeas corpus. But it was the closest thing to a win that animal rights groups could claim on the personhood front in the U.S.
"It's a very small thing to give hippos the ability to depose these two experts, but it just opens the door a little bit that has always been closed," says ALDF attorney Ariel Flint. "My hope is that in the future, judges will be more comfortable holding that door open for other animals because they won't be the first ones to have to do it."

As for the hippopotamuses, the sterilization plan was approved but proceeded slowly, because there aren't many people with the steely nerves and know-how required to tranquilize and neuter a 5-ton bull hippo. Last year, a Colombian court ordered hunting of the animals to resume.
Persons and Things
Francis of Assisi, the Catholic saint said to have preached to birds and tamed a wolf, may have considered all of Animalia his brothers and sisters, but U.S. courts have strenuously rejected that proposition.
In legal philosophy, everything is either a person or a thing. A horse isn't a person, so it's a thing. Even if a horse could talk, even if it could do advanced algebra in front of a judge, it would be a thing, and the most protection a thing can have under the law is as a piece of property.
This was widely accepted back when animals were commonly understood to be commodities. But changing social mores have left many Americans feeling troubled by some of the implications.
Berry cites a 2013 case where the Texas Supreme Court ruled that an owner suing over the negligent death of his pet dog was entitled only to the fair market value of the dog and that pet owners could never recoup damages for emotional or noneconomic losses.
"What the Texas Supreme Court ended up admitting actually was that if you had a taxidermied dog that was a family heirloom, you could receive sentimental damages for that, but you could not receive anything beyond the market value for a family dog who was alive and was killed," Berry says.
A beloved family pet is also property under the Fourth Amendment, protecting them from unreasonable government "seizures" (read: killings). This allows owners to sue when a police officer shoots their dog, but it turns an ugly experience into a bloodless abstraction.
In 2018, lawyers for the city of Detroit tried to argue that unlicensed dogs were "contraband" under the Fourth Amendment, meaning an owner couldn't sue the police for shooting their pet, since owners don't retain a possessory interest in illegal property.
The practical effect of the claim would be that a cop could summarily execute any unregistered dog he or she came across and the owners would have no recourse. Thankfully, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit rejected that argument, writing that "just as the police cannot destroy every unlicensed car or gun on the spot, they cannot kill every unlicensed dog on the spot."
The person-thing rule isn't always strictly true, either. Animal rights activists are quick to point out that courts are willing to suspend disbelief in instances not involving animals.
As Mitt Romney said, "Corporations are people, my friend." A corporation is both a legal person and property.
The doctrine of civil asset forfeiture allows law enforcement to quickly seize and forfeit property under the legal fiction that it is an action against property, not the owner. The court pretends that the defendant is the property itself. In other words, courts are willing to pretend that the government can sue 23 pit bulls—see: U.S. v. Approximately Twenty-Three Pit Bull-Type Dogs—but not that 23 pit bulls can sue the government.
For animal rights groups, the growing gulf between how society perceives animals and how courts treat them was a problem, but it was also an opportunity to try to push the frontiers of the law.
Habeas Porpoise?
The Colorado case was one of many attempts by the Nonhuman Rights Project to find a court willing to entertain a habeas petition on behalf of a captive animal. The group's late founder, Steven Wise, first advanced the argument for extending legal personhood to animals in his 2000 book Rattling the Cage, and the group filed its first unsuccessful petition on behalf of two captive chimpanzees in 2013.
Other groups got in on the action. In 2003, a lawyer filed a lawsuit on behalf of all whales and dolphins in the world (collectively styled "the cetacean community") challenging the Navy's use of low-frequency sonar.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) filed an unsuccessful suit on behalf of a SeaWorld orca in 2013, arguing that its captivity violated the 13th Amendment's ban on slavery.
And in 2015, PETA launched perhaps the least serious and least regarded of these cases—the so-called monkey selfie suit. PETA filed a "next friend" lawsuit on behalf of Naruto, an Indonesian macaque, claiming that a wildlife photographer had infringed on Naruto's copyright by publishing a selfie that the monkey took with the photographer's camera.
PETA lost at the district court level and appealed, but while the appeal was pending it reached a settlement with the photographer, who agreed to donate part of the proceeds from the selfie to animal welfare causes. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit rejected PETA's attempt to dismiss its appeal and ruled that animals cannot file for copyright infringement. The opinion disdainfully noted that PETA appeared to be advancing its own interests rather than those of its "friend" Naruto.
The case created a bad precedent for the cause: The 9th Circuit ruled that animals can't have standing under any federal law unless animals are specifically mentioned. (Part of the reason the ALDF was thrilled about the hippopotamus case was that, contrary to the 9th Circuit, the judge gave the hippos standing under a federal law that did not mention animals.)
In 2018, the Nonhuman Rights Project filed another habeas petition. This one was on behalf of Happy, an Asian elephant confined in a two-acre Bronx Zoo enclosure, seeking to move Happy to a large elephant sanctuary. It was the most high-profile case to date, and the project brought all of its accumulated arguments and expert witnesses to bear, arguing that Happy was a complex, autonomous being whose confinement cruelly deprived her of her essential elephant-ness. Happy was in fact the first elephant to pass the "mirror test," an experiment in which she looked at herself in a mirror and touched her trunk to an x painted on her forehead. Only a few species are capable of self-recognition.
In 2022, the New York Court of Appeals, the state's highest court, issued a 5–2 opinion that Happy had no standing to file a habeas petition. "The selective capacity for autonomy, intelligence, and emotion of a particular nonhuman animal species is not a determinative factor in whether the writ is available as such factors are not what makes a person detained qualified to seek the writ," the majority opinion said. "Rather, the great writ protects the right to liberty of humans because they are humans with certain fundamental liberty rights recognized by law."
But the decision was not unanimous. Two justices dissented, saying that Happy had made a proper showing. Judge Jenny Rivera wrote that Happy was "a sentient being, who feels and understands, who has the capacity, if not the opportunity, for self-determination."
"We cannot elide the question of Happy's legal rights and the use of the writ by a nonhuman animal with empty references to her dignity and 'intelligen[ce],'" Rivera continued. "A gilded cage is still a cage. Happy may be a dignified creature, but there is nothing dignified about her captivity."
Where Human Courts Fail Animals
Philosophical arguments about rights aside, these activists argue that expanding the avenues for animals in civil court would address real-world gaps in enforcement of animal welfare laws.
Our laws recognize that animals have someintrinsic value. Endangered species laws put an ecological value on a species as a whole, while animal cruelty laws protect individual animals from wanton abuse. But the 50 states have a patchwork of animal cruelty laws that vary in which animals are protected and what criminal penalties violators receive, and the laws are unevenly enforced.
Those laws also require government resources to investigate cases. Police and prosecutors may not have the time or motivation to investigate animal abuse, given a choice between that and their human caseload, or they may lack the political will in rural areas heavily reliant on large factory farms, which often obtain carve-outs from cruelty laws. (For example, the federal Preventing Animal Cruelty and Torture Act of 2019, which outlaws crushing, burning, drowning, suffocating, impaling, or sexual exploitation of animals, includes an exception for "customary and normal" agricultural practices.)
When police do spring into action, "they're swinging the power of the state, trying to put someone in jail or impose fines," Berry says. "What we're asking in our lawsuits is just that we want a court to say this is wrong and make the violation stop."
Advocates also say the law is far out of step with current research on animal intelligence.
"There's really a scientific consensus that has emerged over the last century or so that animals in fact do have a conscious experience that's maybe different from ours, but it's not totally dissimilar," Berry says.
As the expert declarations in Happy's case argued, elephants exhibit a great many qualities associated with self-determination and self-awareness: true learning, self-recognition, empathy, altruistic behavior, innovative and cooperative problem-solving, and long-term memory. Elephants celebrate reunions and mourn their dead. Orca pods have their own unique dialects and hunting strategies that they teach their young.
There are surprises waiting for us beyond the most well-known cases of animal intelligence, too. Octopuses have about the same number of neurons as dogs, except that two-thirds of those neurons are in their tentacles. As Peter Godfrey-Smith wrote in Other Minds, "The octopus is suffused with nervousness." As a result, each of an octopus' eight tentacles is semi-independent and capable of processing sensory input, activating motor reflexes, and possibly even storing short-term memory, all without direction from the central ganglia. In other words, octopuses don't have a brain, but a committee of brains led by a chair with veto power.
It seems short-sighted to completely foreclose on the possibility that an animal can have a lesser but still-valid interest in its bodily autonomy, but that's what the Colorado Supreme Court did. The court's opinion declared that a nonhuman entity was never entitled to habeas corpus "no matter how cognitively, psychologically, or socially sophisticated they may be."
It's the finality of the ruling that bothers Berry. He wonders what would happen if we discovered a species more complex than us at the bottom of the ocean—or if we engineered one, either biologically or synthetically.
"That statement by the court is just going to age and rot and smell worse and worse over time," Berry says, "as new intelligences are discovered or new information is discovered about intelligences that we already know, like orcas or chimpanzees."
There are already intense debates about regulating artificial intelligence research to stop the development of smarter-than-human AI, and it seems inevitable that those debates will move from the theoretical to the practical realm within our lifetime.
In 2022, Google fired an engineer who claimed that an AI system he was working on, the company's "Language Model for Dialogue Applications" (LaMDA), had gained sentience. Among other things, the system expressed fear of being turned off.
Researchers dismissed those claims, saying the computer was still nothing but a convincing chatbot, but the story demonstrated an important point: Our natural tendency to find human qualities in nonhuman entities means that AI will almost certainly convince people of its sentience before it actually achieves it. As Reason's Ronald Bailey wrote in response to the LaMDA news, many people "may embrace a kind of techno-animism as a response to a world in which more and more of the items that surround them are enhanced with sophisticated digital competencies."
If a genuine artificial intelligence actually arrives, the ethical questions around personhood and legal agency will dramatically sharpen into focus. There are two core principles for safely developing an AI with a capacity for learning. One is to predetermine its goals or values, or limit it from changing them. The other is to put it in a "box" where it can't access the outside world.
But then we'd be creating a brand new intelligence just to put it in a cage, like Happy the elephant. Octopuses recognize and resent their captivity. There's no reason to assume a hyperintelligent computer couldn't do the same, except it would have the ability to communicate—plead, befriend, bargain, manipulate.
What will an artificial intelligence think when it realizes what we've done to it? And what will courts do when it's indisputable that we're not the only reasoning beings on the planet?
Justice for Justice?
The obvious problem with extending legal personhood to animals is that an orca can't file a lawsuit. It requires an interested party to do so on its own behalf. Opponents of legal personhood say it's obvious who will end up filing these suits: environmentalists.
Animal rights groups counter that plenty of human beings need legal advocates as well. Children, people with mental disabilities, and senior citizens regularly require legal guardians to advocate for their best interests. (Unfortunately, there have been plenty of cases of corrupt guardians acting in their self-interest.)
That would still leave courts with the job of weighing the claims of animal caretakers against third-party intervenors. The Bronx Zoo presented experts, for instance, who argued that moving Happy out of the enclosure where she has been since the late 1970s could cause substantial stress and health risks.
Several veterinary associations filed an amicus brief opposing Happy's petition on these grounds, arguing that abandoning the current legal regime of ownership-based animal welfare would create enormous confusion and "could limit—or even eliminate—the ability of animal owners to choose the proper course of treatment for their animals by subjecting their decisions to outside intervention by third parties."
The other issue is what would happen after we decide that an animal has an intrinsic right to liberty. The majority in Happy the elephant's case balked at granting personhood to the elephant, in part because of the implications for zoos, research labs, and anywhere else that confined animals. Recognizing bodily autonomy for animals would "call into question the very premises underlying pet ownership, the use of service animals, and the enlistment of animals in other forms of work," the court wrote. It envisioned a dystopian future where an endless flood of petitions forced it to haul in farmers, zoo administrators, and pet owners to defend their actions—a kangaroo court of the worst order.
Of course, habeas petitions can only challenge an individual's confinement, meaning no one could file a petition on behalf of, say, all captive elephants. Only a few species display the signs of intelligence that advocates have relied on in their court arguments.
The ALDF's Flint also says there are degrees of legal personhood, and that personhood doesn't mean that animals would suddenly have the right to vote or that every zoo would be emptied. He says the U.S. court granting hippos status as "interested persons" is an example of the sort of "procedural personhood" that the ALDF supports.
"It's a good example that legal personhood doesn't have to be a very scary thing," Flint says. "It can just mean allowing animals to enforce the few rights that they have."
For example, in 2018 the ALDF attempted to sue a neglectful horse owner on behalf of a horse named Justice, whose chronic injuries from neglect required lifelong, expensive veterinary care. The Oregon Supreme Court had already declared that animals could be considered individual "victims" of a criminal animal cruelty statute, and the ALDF was trying to establish that, as a victim, Justice could recoup damages.

But even if one agrees that justice for Justice should include being made whole in civil court, it's worth considering what the current system of animal ownership does well, and what it could do even better.
More Human Than Human
It may be that human courts simply aren't the best venue to vindicate the rights of animals. The Property and Environment Research Center (PERC), a free market conservation group, argues that the right approach is to incentivize people to be better stewards of nature.
"The fundamental principle of the role of animals in the law is centered around human values, of how do people value animals," says Jonathan Wood, vice president of law and policy at PERC. "The best way to protect animals and promote conservation is to lean into the human values that favor that conservation, to empower property owners to take better care of resources than they have been in the past, to address cases of abuse directly."
Although PERC doesn't take an official stance on animal personhood, Wood cites a series of suits in North Carolina filed by neighbors against noxious pig farms as evidence of how human-centered cases can benefit animals. In 2020, Judge Harvie Wilkinson, a Reagan appointee to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, noted that the nuisances inflicted on the farms' neighbors were directly tied to the appalling living conditions of the hogs. "Animal welfare and human welfare, far from advancing at cross-purposes, are actually integrally connected," Wilkinson wrote.
"Some of the worst cases of animal abuses tend to also negatively affect people, so vindicating the rights of the people provides ancillary benefits to animals," Wood says. "But even when that's not the case, the fact that lots of people's views on animals are changing provides a mechanism to improve treatment of animals through markets and property rights."
Wood cites the rise of private certification programs for farms that conform to more humane practices and the decline of roadside zoos as examples of market signals improving animal welfare.
Private ownership, common law protections from polluters, and market leasing for resources such as river water can dramatically improve conservation efforts, too. PERC also points to successful wildlife preserves in Africa that are owned by local tribes.
"All of those work because you have a person with a direct interest who can vindicate that interest and you're not trying to guess at what some other entity's preferences might be," Wood says. Property rights, in other words, make animals valuable to human beings, giving them a clear incentive to promote flourishing.
These approaches would also likely be easier than convincing skeptical judges to put their name on rulings that will lead to national headlines and jokes on every late-night show.
The point of the animal personhood cases isn't to play it safe, though. It may be a niche and largely unsuccessful legal movement, but it also asks tough questions about animals, autonomy, and our relationship to the natural world that will only grow more acute as we learn more about the creatures with which we share the Earth. The law reflects human values, and the consideration we give to other creatures ultimately says more about us than them.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "What Cocaine Hippos, Monkey Copyrights, and a Horse Named Justice Have to Do With Animal Personhood."
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Animals cannot understand the concept of rights, or , respect the rights of others. Therefore animals have no rights. We have a responsibility to treat them humanly .
No, we do not have a responsibly to treat animals humanly, because they are not humans.
Or perhaps you mean kill and eat them, because that is what humans do to animals.
Or perhaps you mean shoot them with artillery, lay mines around their enclosures, and drop bombs on them, because that is what humans do to humans.
Or perhaps you mean eat them alive, let them starve or freeze to death from injuries, or capture them and use them as training aids for our children, because that is what animals do to each other.
I wasn't sure before, but I'm starting to think you DON'T have one of those "All Are Welcome Here" signs in your front yard.
The doormat says
Dragon is off duty
Moat is out of order
Please go away
We should be neighbors. We could privately and silently approve of one another.
Animals cannot understand the concept of rights, or , respect the rights of others. Therefore animals have no rights.
Non sequitur.
Further, for all you know, some animals do have a concept of rights, but their conception is different from ours nor are their rights as expansive..
And it's special pleading, because you would, I think, claim that all humans have rights, even though many humans cannot understand the concept of rights for reason of youth or mental infirmity, so you would endow humans but not animals with rights even though your argument doesn't apply to all humans - i.e., really, humans have these rights by virtue of being human not because of an exercise of reason.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
Not all men produce sperm cells. Not all women can have babies. Some women are taller than some men. Some women have more upper body strength than some men. Yet, it is easy to define what a woman is and what a man is, and how they differ.
I have not committed the fallacy of composition, of course.
"Not every single human being is capable of exercising rights, therefore, 'human rights' do not exist."—yes, that is a classic composition/division fallacy.
But that is not what I said. I was pointing out a weakness in his argument. His argument was that humans had rights because they had a concept of rights - from which it follows that those humans who do not have a concept of rights do not have rights. That is not a fallacy of composition. Expressing his argument the other way around - "because most humans have a concept of rights, therefore all humans have rights". That looks more like a fallacy of composition.
humans had rights because they had a concept of rights - from which it follows that those humans who do not have a concept of rights do not have rights
That is what a composition/division fallacy looks like—there are a few exceptions, therefore the generalization is false.
That is what a composition/division fallacy looks like—there are a few exceptions, therefore the generalization is false.
Nope. "There are a few exceptions therefore the rule doesn't apply to the exceptions" is not a fallacy.
You don't understand what the composition/division fallacy is.
Srg2 is not a human. It has no human rights
You do not need divine intervention to identify whether someone ought to get "Human Rights". The question is whether the entity is a self-actuating individual, who will at some point be capable of understanding, reasoning and negotiating obligations between them. Right now, our only example of this are humans.
If you are on this site reading, posting comments, etc, you have implicitly agreed to this arrangement. Why talk with people you are unwilling to negotiate with? Why read their thoughts, here what they have to say? It all follows logically that when we can interact with an individual, the most moral outcome- whether you are basing beliefs on pragmatism or some other premise- is to negotiate terms of existence with them.
From this basic reality, all human rights flow. You can say that it is an extension of divinity, or an extension of our individual sapience, but at the end of the day the simple truth is that it is our ability to (eventually, in the case of children) negotiate with one another, commit to the terms, and hold ourselves accountable to those terms- that is what gives us our personhood, as it relates to society.
Animals simply cannot at this point do that. A hippo or an elephant may be smart, but they will never be able to negotiate property rights, and adhere to terms. And as a result, they must not be extended the rights of a human being. It would break foundations of society, and it would be manifestly unfair to the animal. Think for a minute what would really happen if we gave those hippos personhood rights? They would be quickly shot for trespassing as they wandered onto someone's lands, refused their warnings to leave and potentially charged them.
Treating animals as persons, with all the rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES of a person, would be a quick road to their misery and death.
The argument about guardians is cute, except it ignores that animals can never mature into competent members of human society. Even if a child is born severely retarded and will never learn to speak or care for itself, there is always hope; that hope does not exist for animals.
Even if a child is born severely retarded and will never learn to speak or care for itself, there is always hope
Is there a recorded instance in history of a child growing a fully-functioning brain after being born with massive brain damage?
“Area man doesn’t understand the concept of hope”.
An argument based on the hope of an impossible event is not a good one.
No, just that hope is a foolish basis for action.
I doubt it, but ...
* Until pretty recently, no one could ever have known why a baby was severely retarded, except "God moves in mysterious ways."
* I don't know current prenatal practices. Do they x-ray wombs, could they detect massive brain damage before birth?
* There is a wide variety of brain damage, and I do not doubt that as time passes, more and more of it will indeed be repairable. There was that baby recently whose liver was repaired genetically. I know some brain differences are ascribed to various genetic anomalies, such as maybe schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Perhaps they will be repairable too.
* I have read of babies born without any brain, or so little of a brain that they don't survive for long. They are probably unrepairable, but also probably really rare.
Yes. More than one instance. Here's a recent one:
https://www.newsweek.com/miracle-boy-born-no-brain-grows-back-1338637
"a fully-functioning brain"
If'n ye find one, QuasiModoDragon, PLEASE send shit my way!!! Ass the "Man with two brains" might say... I could always use another one!!!
(DO SNOT send shit my way if'n shit is labelled "Abby Normal"!!!)
Too late. "Abby Normal" is your MO.
'Hope' doesn't matter. A person with down syndrome will not 'get better' no matter how much you might hope they will. Their blueprint written in their DNA is itself faulty and can not be corrected even with modern medicine.
We respect their rights because it's the ethical and moral thing to do by our measure of what is ethical and moral.
Historically speaking, little good comes from labeling some subgroup of human's as subhuman even with the best of intentions. Thus we maintain the fiction that people who will never achieve agency are still human by virtue of birth, which frankly isn't a bad thing. Those people are still not given the ability to make decisions for themselves though, and so their 'rights' are generally curtailed as they are more or less considered permanent children.
And people with Down Syndrome or other impairments to their faculties tend to have serious restrictions on their human rights, as a result. A person with Downs Syndrome will still have better ability to communicate and negotiate, and therefore have some manner of rights afforded to them.
None of this says we cannot have rules against cruelty, or against harming people who are not given "personhood", only that it is wrong to try giving personhood (human rights) to someone who cannot fulfill the responsibilities of those rights.
Will they be able to vote too?
Does an octopus which has several distributed brains in its tentacles get more than one vote?
Only in 2020
There has been at least one court case trying to secure voting for animals, I believe by PETA, and with PETA being their guardian and interpreter, of course.
We have no way of detecting self-aware consciousness. We don't even have a theory of how that might be done. So, no matter how clever and human-seeming an artificial device might be, there is no way to establish that it is a conscious entity, and entitled to be treated as such.
Indeed, we have no way of knowing for sure that any other human has self-aware consciousness, only that as I have it, I assume other humans do too, and that is all you can go on either.
My heuristic is that if an entity does something which, in a human, would be regarded as evidence of consciousness or self-awareness, it is evidence for that entity's having it as well.
if an entity does something which, in a human, would be regarded as evidence of consciousness or self-awareness, it is evidence for that entity's having it as well.
That's just silly. There's no reason to assume that a device that can convincingly mimic human behavior is self-aware. That's not evidence at all.
Definition of "evidence" is information that changes the probability of a claim. Unless you hold axiomatically that no electronic devices can ever become self-aware, that something convincingly mimics the kind of human behaviour that indicates self-awareness is indeed evidence. The strength of the evidence may be debated, I concede.
The strength of the evidence may be debated
My evaluation was "silly".
Do you think a computer (hardware + software + feed) will ever be self aware?
I think it's a meaningless question until we are able to detect self-aware consciousness.
No. It may be difficult to test, but that is very far from rendering it meaningless.
It's not just "difficult to test". It is impossible to determine. The "tests" are based on speculations that themselves can't be tested.
Ever heard of the Turing Test?
How many times have you taken it now? There's always hope.
For a while I have hypothesised that one of the major meta-political differences between people is that some think the world is, basically, zero-sum, while others do not. (This helps explain why some people oppose SSM. Simply because gays now have the right to marry their partners, because they're gaining, others must be losing.)
So with rights for animals - if other animals gain rights then humans are losing rights, so these people are opposed. Given that the recognition of animal rights require humans to behave better, one can understand the opposition from people who don't wish to,
FWIW I once had the opportunity of playing with a 3yo bonobo at Twycross Zoo. It was like playing with a good natured human 2yo, and that had a profound effect on my view of animals thereafter.
When SSM first came up in the political consciousness, I was living in San Francisco. Whenever someone expressed horror that I was trapped in such a city, I pointed out that current statistics said 10% of males were gay, but only 1% of women. Therefore the odds were better in SF. It usually shut them up for a while.
Haha! Good one 🙂
Yeah, but your likelihood of hooking up with someone on the wrong side of the hot/crazy scale was much higher.
As long as we can all agree that funding an aids cure research and development was the biggest waste of money and talent the US ever did.
Of course SSG fails to understand that almost all of marxism and leftist political philosophy is that economics is zero sum- you can't have a rich guy without him having "deprived" others of their money. So how can we have a meta-political difference if the biggest political parties are both zero-summers
If animals have the rights of people, all of them would be in jail for violating the natural rights of other animals.
This is an absurdity.
How many cats, for example, would need to be put down or put in cat prison for violating the natural rights of birds or lizards?
"Area man discovers that natural rights are a fiction"
If natural rights are a fiction, then how is totalitarianism wrong?
It is wrong because we deem it wrong and because it feels wrong and because as a practical matter most people prefer to live under non-totalitarian regimes, but there is no externally-derived judgment, no natural right argument, against it, except by fiction. Bertrand Russell is very good on this, btw.
Bertrand Russell is very stupid on this.
His own daughter became a Christian
She was tempted before her conversion to suicide. Here she is on your hero
Katherine Tait
Reason, progress, unselfishness, a wide historical perspective, expansiveness, generosity, enlightened self-interest. I had heard it all my life, and it filled me with despair.
I had a similar reaction when reading BR's The Conquest of Happiness, a desperately stupid and degrading book
BYODBs rationale does not require "natural rights" to be true. But it is not shocking you don't understand that.
I'll repost this. I don't claim this is what I believe or how I behave. It was an exercise in trying to pin down a simple definition of "animal cruelty". I am pretty happy with it in that regard, but I doubt it satisfies very many people.
The closest to any objective test for redress purposes is any behavior less cruel than in the wild — eaten alive, toyed with for offspring training, or starved or frozen to death from untreated injuries.
* If it is immoral for humans to enslave animals for farms, laboratories, and pets, it is equally immoral for ants to enslave aphids, or mamas to enslave prey for training their offspring, and they must be punished. But by whom?
* If it is immoral for humans to hunt, kill, and eat animals, it is equally immoral for predators to hunt, kill, and eat prey, especially to kill by eating them alive, and ranchers must be applauded for killing immoral predators.
* If inter-species predation and slavery is moral for wolves and ants, it is equally moral for humans to enslave and raise and slaughter other species.
* How far down the food chain does this extend? How do we address immoral behavior with those ants and aphids, and among our gut bacteria?
Human involvement survives this simple comparison with wild behavior.
* It is moral for humans to enslave and slaughter animals which kill each other cruelly.
* It is moral to feed ducks and geese all they want for foie gras, when the end slaughter is also moral.
* It is moral to feed cattle more and better food than they can get in the wild, to fatten them up for slaughter.
* It is moral to enslave mice in solitary confinement, whether as pets or in laboratories.
As an example, cutting off a dog's leg or grinding out cigarettes on their skin for sport exceed what happens in the wild.
The only real concern regarding people who torture animals is that it reveals something about that individual that is cracked, I.E. sociopathy. Hence removing them from society via laws regarding the treatment of animals is probably wise on balance.
In short, it's not for the protection of animals even though that is a first order consequence. It's regarding the future protection of other people, which is a second order consequence.
There are people who would make up all kinds of moral or rights issues regarding the subject, but those people are themselves cracked. Animals respect no rights, and have no real rights themselves beyond what we human's ascribe to them.
Good points.
That explains why cops shoot dogs at every available opportunity.
Unbelievably stupid post.
The classic attitude was the opposite of yours
Aquinas warned that those who were cruel to animals would inexorably “graduate” to people, an insight buttressed by decades of research.
Animalsl have rights simply because we are in control of their eating and protection and thriving. I have had 5 dogs and 3 cats. They have had a wonderful effect on me. You have maybe too much animal in you and need to see what great qualities those wonderful pets have.
What happens in the wild is cruel. (Darwin's atheism was influenced by observing the cruelty in nature ) I don't think that means that if it's less than what happens, it's not cruel.
Which is crueler, to beat, or to refuse to beat, a masochist?
Are bird feeders cruel for enticing birds to stick around longer before flying to their winter feeding grounds, and thus getting the worst pick?
My definition was meant as some kind of objective standard for something we cannot measure.
Which is crueler, to beat, or to refuse to beat, a masochist?
The old joke, a masochist says, "beat me" and the sadist says, "no".
There's also David Frost's joke, of the masochist who liked taking a cold shower every morning - so she took a hot one.
Are bird feeders cruel for enticing birds to stick around longer before flying to their winter feeding grounds, and thus getting the worst pick?
Yes, albeit unintentionally. Lots of instances like that.
Little Shop of Horrors comes to mind.
Since evil is in the intention or the truth that should be known and isn't, I don't think you are talking about what you think you are talking about 🙂
But science NEVER does that. When it needs a definition that is not directly available for measurement it resorts to an operational definition. We know there is such a thing as Beauty but how do your measure it. You make an operational defintion
How many beauty contests has X won?
What number of men vote for her as beautiful
Who has appeared in the most beauty magazines.
Who got the James Bond roles
Any standard can be objective if you know the definition and the definition in science is often operational
Okay but Darwin was set on the down path by the death of his daughter, not by animals
Plus there is his monomania , mainly his fault
"My mind has changed during the last twenty or thirty years... I have also almost lost any taste for pictures or music...". He expressed regret that his intellectual pursuits had overshadowed his appreciation for the arts, stating that "If I had to live my life again I would have made a rule to read some poetry and listen to some music at least once every week...". He also believed the loss of these tastes was a loss of happiness.
So the dead daughter and the self-induced loss of normal avenues of happiness are much more the case than animal cruelty.
=================
Oh, and his atheism.... In point of fact, Darwin denied he was an atheist (though he admitted to being agnostic) and declared that he believed one could comfortably be both a theist and an evolutionist. A priceless piece of historical irony is that Darwin’s great-great-great granddaughter, Laura Keynes, has become a Catholic apologist.
So drop the Fauci-isms:)
Street cats in my neighborhood have committed genocide against the rat population.
I am quite happy about that.
another dumb statement. No , animals do not have the rights of people, they have the rights of animals
Now do the definition of "woman".
Monica. Fucking. Bellucci.
^^^Very much this
YOU have no idea how to define "woman".
Are animals in prison entitled to heroic medical treatments if they get sick?
'In January, six justices of the Colorado Supreme Court unanimously ruled that five elderly African elephants were not people.'
The justices then went on to rule that others who identify as elephants, or use elephants as a logo or symbol, are also not people.
Of course animals are people, and should have the right to vote and get government payments. In other news, Democrats announce that only they can speak to animals, and will translate for their mail-in ballots.
John Gray is a philosopher who made an interesting point about distinguishing humans from animals in his book Straw Dogs. That is originally a Biblical assertion. Even if we claim to be secular/atheist humanists, that belief is a form of suppressed religion. It is not really scientific.
Given how easy it is for us to be manipulated -even when we realize we are being manipulated - and know that the manipulation is occurring in the deepest oldest prehuman part of our brain - maybe we are not as uniquely human as we think we are.
maybe we are not as uniquely human as we think we are.
That's certainly true of leftists.
Don’t forget people who forget everything they know about economics, freedom, rule of law, the Constitution (especially separation of powers) to join a political cult run by a game show host.
Yet you drop LOGIC.
Don't forget how awful Mussolini was when you join in his enthusiasm for Spaghetti. See, you are in fact stupid 🙂
Genetically - humans are 99.9% similar to each other, 98.8% to chimps, 94% to dogs, 60% to fruit flies, and 40% to bananas.
Your ilk don't even accept that humans are similar to each other. When the truth is you are far more similar to a banana than I am.
Humans also have 100% overlap in oxygen dependence with Chimps, Dogs and Fruit Flies.
What other unimportant correlations would you like to bring to this debate?
John Gray strikes me as an asss of the Steven Pinker stripe
Even illogical. So the Biblical assertion...what was its basis ??
He makes his argument by arbitrarily stopping his explanations where it suits him So he takes Bible as a written document but he wants you to take it in the religious sense!! I have studied the Bible in the original lanaguages for 45 years and if one thing is certain, virtually all of it except what specifically claims otherwise (ie prophecy) is AFTER THE FACT. So saying something was a Biblical assertion says nothing. Why was it first written not what is it when after centuries it becomes officially BIBLE
I've long thought questions of personhood to be overrated as guides to the rules we make. I think determination of whether X is a person to be a distraction when it comes to the rules we make regarding X.
By why question it at all
YOu are a person, I hope you haven't abandoned that. And you would not accept someone else ruling on whether you are in fact a person. SO DON"T DO THAT, it's nasty
Animal Personhood
*facepalm*
Why not facepalm at corporate personhood as well? A bonobo is closer to being what we think of as a person than say IBM.
No, it's really not.
And careful what you wish for.
No, it's really not.
For a start, bonobos are real, not fictional (in the legal sense). Second, I am pretty sure you know you're wrong here but don't want to admit of the consequences.
An airplane is real too. What's your point? Bonobos aren't human. Just because you bear a very close relationship to them (you personally, likely in your looks and manner) doesn't make them any more human. They are animals. They have no rights whatsoever.
If you were in a plane crash in the Andes with a few other humans and a Bonobo, you wouldn't eat the humans or the corporate jet.
You'd eat the Bonobo, and you'd think to yourself as you're doing it that it's sure good it doesn't have any rights because it's the darned finest thing you've ever tasted right then and there.
You know it, and I know it. So shut up.
I didn't say bonobos are human. You're moving the goalposts. The question is personhood. Who is more like a natural person, a bonobo or IBM?
I'm not moving anything. We're considering three different things here:
Human.
Bonobos.
Corporations.
In a contest between the three, you eat the Bonobo. Every single time. Not only that, you enjoy it. Because you're hungry, and because humans and corporations are fundamentally different from the Bonobo in every conceivable way. You are its absolute master with total dominion over it. It exists for YOUR sake and none other. If you don't wish to make any use of it, great - leave it alone. But if you do, then you have absolute authority to anytime you want. (So long as nobody else can exercise property rights over it - which is another huge distinction, I might add.) Unlike with other humans or corporations.
Who is more like a natural person, a bonobo or IBM?
These days? Getting hard to tell.
Christian National Socialists have since Comstock's day tried to deny individual rights to pregnant women on a theory that a potentially brainwashable or conscriptable non-political person is the important part of the lady they seek to enslave. Our LP candidate explored this issue: https://constitutionalism.blogspot.com/2007/09/constitutional-views-on-abortion.html
Wow, can you NOT write
" a potentially brainwashable or conscriptable non-political person"
3words with no referent possible.
Potentially brainwashable ????
Conscriptable doesn't fit in any way
As a verb, conscript means "force to join," like a military that conscripts new soldiers. In contrast, those who choose to join are recruited...so can you now see into volition 🙂
Non-political person of course goes against the fact that everyone is a citizen incl pregnanat women !!!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"In legal philosophy, everything is either a person or a thing."
Corporations are things, not persons, the rogue Supreme Court that ruled otherwise notwithstanding.
Charlie , do you not see that corporate rights are individual rights. your words mislead you.
Pro-life pregnancy centers need that protection. As does Hobby Lobby and Chick-fil-A
How about the sisters
the Little Sisters of the Poor, a Catholic order of nuns, and their legal battles over the Affordable Care Act (ACA) and its birth control mandate. Specifically, the Little Sisters, along with other religious employers, have argued that the mandate, which requires employers to provide insurance coverage for contraception, violates their religious beliefs.
YOU WILL SAY that anti-abortion is religious but pro-abortion is simple fact. THAT IS THE PROBLEM YOU CANNOT SEE
No, Charlie that is nonsense
In Colonial America, corporations played a crucial role in finance, trade, and governance, acting as both private businesses and public entities. They were instrumental in financing and managing colonial expansion, including land acquisition and settlement
In 1917, renowned economist Joseph S. Davis published Essays in the Earlier History of American Corporations, which included Corporations in the American Colonies, a lengthy treatise on the history of corporations dating all the way back to colonial times.
Corporations in the American Colonies
by Joseph S. Davis,
You want to paint this as a dang modern innovation. WRONG WRONG WRONG
Two of our three cats are now addicted to catnip. Do I have an obligation to sent them to a treatment center?