Google Is Big. Does That Make It a Monopoly?
To understand the federal government's case against Google Search, you need to understand the different visions over monopoly and government power.

"This victory against Google is an historic win for the American people." So declared U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland in response to District Judge Amit Mehta's August 5, 2024, ruling in United States v. Google, which found the tech giant guilty of amassing and wielding illegal monopoly power over the online search market.
What Garland left unsaid was that the ruling was also a win for his boss, President Joe Biden, and for his boss's predecessor, former President Donald Trump. That's because the federal case against Google did not originate with the Biden Justice Department; it originated with the Trump Justice Department. "Two decades ago, Google became the darling of Silicon Valley as a scrappy startup with an innovative way to search the emerging internet," the Trump administration argued in its original 2020 lawsuit. "That Google is long gone. The Google of today is a monopoly gatekeeper for the internet." In an increasingly polarized political climate, the Google ruling was hailed as a rare triumph for bipartisanship. At last, the thinking went, the two parties can finally agree on something.
Yet the ruling was not uniformly celebrated among legal and policy experts. Mehta's judgment "may not hold up on appeal," argued Alden Abbott, former general counsel at the Federal Trade Commission. Instead of harming consumers, Abbott wrote, Google's search engine "likely raised consumer welfare, which the Supreme Court has deemed the overarching goal of antitrust enforcement."
Nor did the ruling give much weight to consumer choice, effectively ignoring the actions of the many consumers who have opted to use Google search precisely because they view it as the best product around.
So forget the rosy paeans to bipartisanship. When you dig into this case, you find a raging debate not only about Google's actions, but also about the federal government's response to those actions—a debate about whether both the Justice Department and Mehta have taken a big wrong turn on antitrust.
In a way, it's tempting to think of U.S. v. Google as a futuristic sort of case. It does involve cutting-edge innovations and fast-moving technologies, after all. Yet the underlying legal dispute is anything but new. Indeed, in the world of law and economics, the basic nature of the dispute is fairly old. It's a fight that keeps coming up again and again.
The reason why the conflict keeps recurring is because for well over a century, two competing views about monopoly have jostled for dominance in American law. It is these competing views—each one with its own unique history and tradition—that are still driving much of the debate today.
To understand what's happening in the Google Search case, in other words, you need to first understand this longrunning clash of visions over monopoly and government power.
Two Concepts of Monopoly
One of the most influential figures in the history of American antitrust law is actually more famous for something else. Louis Brandeis was appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1916 by President Woodrow Wilson and served until his retirement in 1939. Judges and lawyers today still cite his opinions on issues ranging from freedom of speech to the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. As a jurist, he made his mark on the law.
He also made his mark as a legal and political activist. Before joining the high court, Brandeis was a successful litigator who frequently filed suits against powerful corporate entities. He was one of the guiding intellectual lights of the Progressive movement, a coalition of social reformers, labor activists, and various other critics of industrial capitalism. The Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, the Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914, and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914 all largely resulted thanks to the efforts of Progressives like Brandeis.
Dubbed "the people's attorney" by his admirers, Brandeis was particularly fixated on curing what he called "the curse of bigness." Testifying before Congress in 1916, for example, Brandeis argued that big business in America had simply become too big to be allowed to survive. "The main objection, as I see it, to the large corporation," he said, "is that it makes possible—and in many cases makes inevitable—the exercise of industrial absolutism." As a solution, Brandeis urged the government to step in and impose "a limit on the size of corporate units." Put differently, he wanted to see all forms of big business broken up.
That hostility to "bigness" remains a very influential concept among many antitrust advocates and practitioners today. The popular business writer and strategist Ben Thompson, for example, has described his own views in highly Brandeisian terms. "I share the societal sense of discomfort in dominant entities that made the Sherman Antitrust Act law in the first place," Thompson wrote. Judge Mehta's ruling against Google, he argued, is "pushing in a direction that's worth leaning into."
Or take the case of Tim Wu, a Columbia University law professor and former adviser to the Biden administration on technology and competition policy. When Wu went looking for a title for his 2018 book about "extreme economic concentration," he reached straight back to Brandeis, titling it The Curse of Bigness: Antitrust in the New Gilded Age. That none-too-subtle homage is emblematic of Brandeis' lasting influence on the monopoly debate.
Of course, Brandeis represents just one side of that debate. On the other side, we find the intellectual legacy of another long-dead Supreme Court justice.
That dead justice is Stephen Field. Appointed to the Supreme Court by President Abraham Lincoln in 1863, Field served on the bench until his retirement in 1897. Field's name is mostly forgotten today, except among legal scholars. But the ideas that he championed are alive and kicking. That is particularly true about Field's jurisprudence on monopoly and government power.
Consider the 1876 case of Munn v. Illinois. At issue was a state law setting the maximum storage rates that could be charged by 14 massive grain elevators located at the port of Chicago. Those grain elevators "stand…in the very 'gateway of commerce' and take toll from all who pass," the Supreme Court declared in Munn. That made them tantamount to "a 'virtual' monopoly" and thus opened them to extensive government controls.
Writing in dissent, Field took the opposite view. "There is nothing in the character of the business of the defendants as warehousemen which called for the interference complained of in this case," he wrote. "Their buildings are not nuisances; their occupation of receiving and storing grain infringes upon no rights of others, disturbs no neighborhood, infects not the air, and in no respect prevents others from using and enjoying their property as to them may seem best."
Unlike "public ferries, bridges, and turnpikes," whose financial success rested upon "some special privilege granted by the State or municipality," Field wrote, the grain elevator operators had succeeded in the marketplace on the merits. So why penalize them for that legitimately won success? "No reason can be assigned to justify legislation interfering with the legitimate profits of that [grain elevator] business," Field wrote, "that would not equally justify an intermeddling with the business of every man in the community, so soon, at least, as his business became generally useful."
In other words, according to Field, the mere "bigness" of the enterprise (to borrow Brandeis' term) should not matter in the legal analysis; what should matter is whether or not the enterprise is directly harmful to the public, such as by "infect[ing] the air" or "prevent[ing] others from using and enjoying their property." And if it was not harmful—as Field argued that the grain elevators were not—then the enterprise should not be subjected to anti-monopoly legislation, even if the enterprise happened to have grown economically big and powerful.
Think about it like this: For Brandeis, the thing to worry about was unchecked business power. For Field, the thing to worry about was unchecked government power. Brandeis thought "bigness" in the economic realm was a threat to society in and of itself. Field, by contrast, thought the real threat to society came when the government throttled successful private enterprises in the name of battling "bigness."
These competing concepts of monopoly have been shaping the legal debate ever since.
'True Market Competition'
Which brings us back to U.S. v. Google. According to Mehta's August 2024 ruling, "Google is a monopolist, and it has acted as one to maintain its monopoly." Google has done this, Mehta argued, by signing "exclusive" contracts with "browser developers, mobile device manufacturers, and wireless carriers" who "agree to install Google as the search engine that is delivered to the user right out of the box at key search access points." Put differently, Google has signed expensive deals to make its product the default search engine on various browsers and mobile devices. "These exclusive deals protect Google's dominant position," Mehta maintained, "and shield it from meaningful competition."
But just because Google is the default search engine does not necessarily mean that consumers are prevented from using the products offered by its competitors. Yes, Google Search does come "right out of the box." But consumers are still free to switch their default settings to a different search engine, such as Microsoft Bing. If consumers don't want to use Google when they search the web, they're not forced to do so. (It would be more accurate to say that consumers are nudged to use Google.) As Google and its allies are quick to point out, Google's competition is just "one click away."
On the other hand, according to the Justice Department, Google has dominated the internet search market to such an extent that it effectively has no meaningful competition left. During the trial phase of the case, for example, Apple executive Eddy Cue said that "there's no price that Microsoft could ever offer" that would persuade Apple to switch to using Bing instead of using Google as the default search engine on its iPhones.
There are two ways of looking at Cue's statement. We might call them the Brandeis way and the Field way.
The Brandeis way was expressed by Mehta, who saw Cue's statement as clear evidence that "Google does not face true market competition in search" and thus counts as an illegal monopolist. In effect, Google's very "bigness" was an indicating factor of its guilt.
Here's the other way of looking at it. In United States v. Grinnell Corporation (1966), the Supreme Court distinguished between "the willful acquisition or maintenance" of monopoly power (which is illegal), and monopoly power that results "from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product [or] business acumen" (which is not illegal). Under this view, Google has dominated the search market as "the consequence of a superior product." Its search engine is simply so much better than Bing that "there's no price that Microsoft could ever offer" to replace it as an iPhone default.
"The fact that Google search has an 80% market share even on Windows devices, where Edge is the default browser and Bing is the default search engine, demonstrates that consumers go out of their way to use Google because they believe it is the best option," argues Geoffrey Manne, an antitrust expert and president of the International Center for Law & Economics. That's the Field view.
There's also the related question of just how dominant Google Search is likely to remain given the new competition it may increasingly face from developments in artificial intelligence. What does it mean for the monopoly case against Google if consumers steadily embrace AI as their go-to search option, leaving both Google and Bing in the dust?
In his ruling, Mehta gave little weight to such questions. "AI may someday fundamentally alter search," Mehta wrote, "but not anytime soon."
Neil Chilson, former chief technologist at the Federal Trade Commission and current head of AI policy at the Abundance Institute, told me "there's one very good reason that Judge Mehta didn't make more of competition from AI: discovery in the Google Search case ended June 30, 2022—five months before ChatGPT-3.5's public launch. So I think there just wasn't much hard evidence in the record about how rapidly and significantly the industry was shifting strategy due to the seismic impact of ChatGPT." In Chilson's view, "this is more evidence that antitrust enforcers sometimes have 20/20 hindsight yet are legally blind about the future."
What's Next?
A case of this magnitude is unlikely to be resolved by the single decision of a single federal district court judge. Google has already vowed to appeal its loss to the higher legal authorities at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, a process that could potentially drag on for years. Meanwhile, Mehta is holding another round of hearings to determine what sort of penalties Google should face.
The Biden Justice Department asked the court to break Google up—a very Brandeisian punishment. But Mehta may stop short of that drastic penalty and opt instead to invalidate and prohibit the company's default search deals. Of course, Google might still someday prevail on appeal, with the D.C. Circuit (or even the Supreme Court) ultimately finding that Google's success is "the consequence of a superior product." Place your bets now.
Whatever happens in the near future, the larger legal debate is not going away. If anything, the fact that both the Trump and Biden administrations have chosen to vigorously pursue this case suggests that other such lawsuits against Big Tech should be expected in the years ahead, regardless of which political party happens to occupy the White House.
What that means is that Google (and others) will be slugging it out in court with the federal government for the foreseeable future. The latest battle over monopoly and government power is just starting to heat up.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "Google Is Big. Is That Bad?."
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It is a pale shadow of itself as a search engine. Taken over by purchased results and progressive censorship.
Yes, but the search results themselves are bad. Heavily tilted to commercial companies and current events. It also commonly ignores the search parameters, making it even harder to find what you want. Google’s search quality is a shell of what it once was.
Google is however, the best spell checker there is.
"progressive censorship"
Huh?
Been in a coma for 8 years? They openly even talk about it still.
Lol, I posted a link of a CBS news propagandist literally blaming the holocaust on free speech below. Poor f7b155e.
It’s nice that CBS is giving jobs to the retarded.
I can’t wait till 2028 when we fucking string you Nazis up
Hey Rbike: I will never EVER forget or forgive what you Nazis did to MY country
WE ARE GOING TO CUT YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF YOU FUCKING PEDO
You CHOOSE to belong to the pedo Catholic Church.
It’s not hard to dox country bumpkins in ne Iowa.
WE ARE GOING TO CUT YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF
LOL @ comparing google to bing.
Weirdly for me, Bing doesn't seem to censor as much. Sometimes less than Duckduckgo and Brave search. I think that the CIA forgets about it sometimes. It's maps sometimes show better data too in some places. Like rural BC and Saskatchewan. I like to use them both in tandem.
I do Brave whenever I need to search something like climate change and such. In my experience, it isn’t half as red-washed as Google. But you also only get 1/10 of the actual hits…
Duckduckgo is better than brave if looking for papers and such. They scan databases.
They still censor. They censored anti-jab sites during Covid and then there's this from USAID publisher, the NYT:
The far right complains after the search engine DuckDuckGo vows to limit Russian propaganda
I agree. But still better than brave for finding actual papers.
Oh, Brave censors too. I was just observing the cancer was everywhere.
Sometime you can coax less censored info out of the chatbots.. here is a sample conversation i had with CoPilot:
You
DID IKE WARN OF THE IMC
Copilot
Yes, President Dwight D. Eisenhower, often referred to as "Ike," did warn of the military-industrial complex1. In his farewell address to the nation on January 17, 1961, he cautioned about the potential dangers of the growing influence of the military and defense industries2. He emphasized the need for vigilance to prevent the acquisition of unwarranted influence by this powerful alliance3.
Eisenhower's warning was significant because he had a long military career, including serving as the Supreme Allied Commander during World War II, and he understood the implications of a large, permanent armaments industry2.
Is there something specific you'd like to know more about regarding his warning?
1www.historyandheadlines.com2www.history.com3taskandpurpose.com
You
WAS HE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST?
Copilot
No, Eisenhower wasn't a conspiracy theorist. He was a pragmatic leader who had a deep understanding of the military and its influence. His warning about the military-industrial complex was based on his observations and experiences, not on unfounded theories. He was concerned about the potential for undue influence and the need for balance and oversight.
Interestingly, some conspiracy theorists of his time, like the John Birch Society, even accused Eisenhower of being a communist12. But those claims were baseless and widely discredited.
Eisenhower's cautionary message remains relevant today, reminding us to be vigilant about the balance of power and the influence of various sectors on government policy.
1www.grunge.com2www.jstor.org
You
SO AN ACTUAL MIC ISNOT A CONSPIRACY
Copilot
Nope, the military-industrial complex (MIC) isn't a conspiracy in itself. It's a real concept describing the relationship between a country's military, defense contractors, and the government. Eisenhower's warning was about the potential for this relationship to gain too much influence over national policies and priorities. It's about being vigilant to ensure this power balance doesn't get out of control.
Not quite cloak-and-dagger stuff, more like a heads-up on keeping things in check. What are your thoughts on this?
You
WHO ARE THE STAKEHOLDERS IN THE MODERN MIC
Copilot
The modern military-industrial complex (MIC) involves a wide range of stakeholders, including:
1. Government Agencies: Departments like the Department of Defense (DoD) and various military branches (Army, Navy, Air Force) play a central role in decision-making and policy formulation1.
2. Defense Contractors: Large corporations that design, manufacture, and supply military equipment and technology, such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Northrop Grumman2.
3. Subcontractors: Smaller companies that provide specialized components and services to the main contractors2.
4. Research Institutions and Universities: These entities often collaborate on advanced research and development projects related to defense technologies2.
5. Consultants and Lobbyists: Professionals who influence policy and decision-making through advocacy and expert advice.
6. Skilled Workforce: Engineers, scientists, and other professionals who work on developing and maintaining military technologies2.
7. Politicians and Government Officials: Elected officials and appointed leaders who oversee and regulate the defense sector3.
These stakeholders interact in complex ways, shaping the direction and priorities of national defense policies and spending3. It's a multifaceted ecosystem with significant influence on both the economy and national security.
Does this help clarify things for you?
1oxfordre.com2www.britannica.com3totalmilitaryinsight.com
You
COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THEIR 'STAKE' IN THE MIC WOULD LEAD THEM TO TRY TO HURT THE POLITICAL CHANCES OF SOMEONE WHO MIGHT, IF THEY CAME INTO POWER, THREATEN THEIR 'STAKE' OR THE MIC ITSELF
Copilot
It's certainly within the realm of possibility. Stakeholders in the military-industrial complex (MIC) have significant resources and influence, which they could potentially use to protect their interests. This might include lobbying, funding political campaigns, or using media influence to sway public opinion against candidates who threaten their position.
It's a reminder of the importance of transparency and accountability in politics and the need for vigilance to ensure that powerful interests don't unduly influence democratic processes. What do you think about the balance of power in politics?
You
IS IT REASONABLE TO CONSIDER SOMEONE LIKE JOHN KELLY AS A STAKEHOLDER IN THE MIC
Copilot
Yes, it's reasonable to consider someone like John Kelly as a stakeholder in the military-industrial complex (MIC). John Kelly, a retired Marine Corps general and former White House Chief of Staff, has significant military experience and connections. After his government service, he joined Hanwha Defense USA, a defense contractor, as President and CEO1. This role places him within the defense industry, making him a stakeholder in the MIC.
His background and current position illustrate the interconnectedness of military, government, and defense industries, which is a key aspect of the MIC. What are your thoughts on this?
1www.ndia.org
You
i'm thinking that these are important considerations when evaluating his recent accusations about people admiring hitler and his generals. those kinds of accusations could be considered hurtful to anyones political chances - wouldnt you say?
Copilot
Absolutely, accusations like that can be incredibly damaging to someone's political career. They can shape public perception and influence voters' opinions, often regardless of the truth behind the claims. It's crucial to consider the motivations and potential biases of those making such accusations, especially if they have significant stakes in powerful sectors like the MIC. This context can help in critically evaluating the intent and impact of their statements.
You
has there been a political candidate in recent history that you would consider to be a threat to the MIC?
Copilot
There have been a few political candidates who have challenged the status quo of the military-industrial complex (MIC). For instance, Bernie Sanders has been vocal about reducing military spending and redirecting funds to social programs1. Similarly, a bipartisan group of lawmakers has recently scrutinized the MIC, pushing for amendments to limit military intervention and U.S. foreign policy2.
These efforts highlight the ongoing debate about the influence of the MIC and the need for transparency and accountability in defense spending. What do you think about these challenges to the MIC?
1jacobin.com2theintercept.com
You
how about donald trump? he has clashed with the MIC on their accepted orthodoxy at times has he not?
Copilot
Yes, Donald Trump has had a complex relationship with the military-industrial complex (MIC). While he has criticized the MIC, accusing Pentagon leaders of wanting to fight wars to benefit defense contractors1, his administration also saw significant increases in defense spending and the promotion of military hardware1. This dual approach highlights the tension between his public statements and policy actions.
It's a fascinating dynamic, showing how even those who challenge the MIC can still be deeply intertwined with it. What do you think about this contradiction?
Nice.
how probably would you consider it for me to have gotten copilot to admit its final conclusions from an initial question rather than from a carefully set up query?
Rememeber - the mainstream media narrative was that one couldn't question Gen Kelly - he's a hero!!
also remember where these LLMs get their ideas from ...
Dunno about brave, but duck duck go is a meta search, so I imagine they can't produce not-censored results no matter what. They're passing down pre-censored results that come from the search engines they're hitting before they even add their own sorting to it all.
This seems like an intentional misreading of monopoly laws.
The size doesn't matter (ask sarc).
It is how they use their market position to go after current or future competition.
And Google is notorious for doing evil in this regard. The number of buy and kills they have is legion. On topnof that they have been caught paying the various appstore to prioritize their products and de rank competitors. Amazon was caught doing this as well.
What that does is cause market distortion. Even popular apps end up lower in rankings. It is a means to manipulate markets.
For the search engine it isn't a market distortion, but when you add in the entire ecosystem and their actions to kill competitors it is. The best example is the big SV companies colliding to kill Gab. Or government creating pressure to remove advertising to conservative media. These are all anti market and illegal, per monopoly laws, actions.
OMG Reason, you just don't get it.
When Trump initiated anti-trust against Google that was a good thing because Trump. When Biden continued it it was a bad thing because Biden. Now that Trump is in office it's a good thing because Trump.
Same with tariffs. Trump's initial tariffs were good because Trump. Biden's tariffs were bad because Biden. Now Trump's tariffs are good because Trump.
You need to drop all this "principle" shit and realize that good and bad are determined by who, not what.
Then you'll be true libertarians.
Sarcasmic didn't have a problem with any of those things, when old Joe was doing them. Nary a peep when Joe doubled them. But Orange Hitler wants to do reciprocal tariffs? How dare he!!!
Sarc is very principle(D) that way.
I'm really going to laugh if the result of Trump's reciprocal tariff threats are less tariffs globally and freer trade. Sarc will be absolutely furious.
Sure I did. The fact that you pretend articles critical of those things do not exist, and that the comments on those articles do not exist, doesn't mean that those things don't exist. It just means that you're a liar with your fingers in your ears shouting "La la la la you never said that la la la I can't hear you la la la!"
Since you only lie on days that end in 'y', let me check to see what today is. Sunday. Well what do you know, that's proof that you're lying!
Okay, Sarckels, here's the Reason search on Biden's tariffs:
https://reason.com/search/biden%20tariff/
Scroll down through the results and tell us what you notice.
They're all from this year.
LOL
Keep scrolling down retard, click on the more. You didn't go down an inch.
How embarrassing.
How typical for the drunk dipshit. He’s getting as lazy as the little bitch we call SPB.
Good job knowing what day it is sarc!
The biggest fear for sarc is it works and global tariffs on average decrease. He is an acolyte that America is evil and should always be disadvantaged.
George Orwell described "doublethink" as holding two contradictory thoughts in one's head and believing both of them.
For example Trump's claim that tariffs will make the nation rich by protecting businesses from competition, and that his ultimate goal is no tariffs at all.
For some this might cause cognitive dissonance, but Jesse is completely immune.
Pretty sure doublethink is also where some drunken clown holds the belief that every single thing orange man does is bad, but it's okay when his team does it.
Ha ha. Did you ever give Biden credit for continuing and expanding upon Trump's tariffs? No, you did not. That means that you only defend tariffs when Trump does it, but when the other team does it it's bad. You only care about who, not what.
By the way I gave credit to Trump during his first term for not starting any new wars and for slowing regulatory growth.
Looks like the war thing was premature, since it looks like he might be sending troops to Gaza, Ukraine, Canada, Panama, Greenland, and who knows where else. He finally got his war boner. And you'll defend it all, even him invading your home country.
I've never defended Trumps tariffs, you lying fuck. Why would I? The energy ones are going to hit Western Canada hard.
No. I've been constantly pointing out YOUR rank hypocrisy, where you try to troll on Trump's policies despite never having once raised a peep when Biden did the same or much, much worse.
Every time you "Biden did it first", I will continue to point out that you never once cared when he did, you idiot drunken rat.
Except that I criticized his inflationary spending, his tariffs, his student loan scheme, his environmental policies, and pretty much every thing else he did. And I'm criticizing those things now. Though You'll memoryhole this comment and pretend it does not exist, just like every other comment I made criticizing Biden and his policies. Because you're a lying piece of garbage.
And you have defended his tariffs by attacking anyone who understands economics. Still do. I'd tell you to stop lying but that's like telling shit to stop stinking.
Do you imagine nobody can see just above where ML gave you the link to all the tariff articles?
"Though You'll memoryhole this comment and pretend it does not exist"
Oh, that comment exists. It's the others you're fibbing about. The only time you ever spoke ill of Biden's tariffs increase was when people pointed them out when you were ranting about a Trump tariff threat. You never once criticized Biden's tariffs when they were implemented. Only in self-defense after the fact.
As I said, those comments are on the articles critical of Biden that you ignored because they went against the narrative.
Know who never once criticized Biden's tariffs? Trump defenders like you.
In fact if you go jnto those Biden tariff threads you'll find sarc attacking Republicans and inserting strawman to filibuster.
What's the over/under that if I click on a 2022 thread featuring complaints about Biden's tariffs we'll see Sarc complaining about them.
It's 0 percent. I once went through 20 of them for sarc and not one criticism against Biden. Many against Trump or his usual throw shit at Republicans strawman.
What are the chances sarc read any of the links i gave him yesterday regarding comparative advantage and it's flaws?
I glanced at them. What I saw were stupid claims that when another country has a comparative advantage, that really means their government put us at a comparative disadvantage, and it's up to our government to fix it by making imports more expensive with taxes. It all boils down to the belief that taxes make us richer, which Trump has said time and time again, which means Jesse must defend it. He has to. His entire identity is wrapped up in defending Trump.
The difference between your links and Bastiat's satirical essay about candlemakers is that your links are serious while he shows the absurdity of their claims.
http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html
I’m willing to bet Sarc looked at them to claim he “read” them, but has no understanding of them.
He didn't even do that. Copypasting Bastiat doesn't necessarily mean he read either.
Not only have I read Bastiat, but I understand it too. That puts me two steps above any of you Trump defenders.
Lol, not a chance. Without googling, Sarckles, what is the "parable of the broken window"?
The moral of the story is opportunity cost. Now tell me, without googling, what's the moral of the above story? I'll give you a clue: your buddy Jesse claims it doesn't exist.
Him and STG point to simple models for simple minds. They don't understand economics can't be expressed assuming linear first models.
It's why they think economic thought stopped in the 1800s and nothing happened since.
Next Jesse will say that only simple minds believe one plus one equals two, because really smart people know the answer is seventeen. He's a walking ad hominem machine.
You’re just full of the false equivalencies and ad hominem attacks today.
You do realize that Ian Fletcher is arguing for a fascist style capitalism, which we often say here, is synonymous with socialism.
Do you agree with this quote?
...State capitalism where you basically have massive government and ownership and control of the corporate sector. Now any number of people will tell you this cannot work...I'm sorry. It does work.
That's Ian Fletcher.
https://www.youtube.com/live/g_XYaEtlLx4?si=ziSdfvlHlYK-0MzM&t=24m39s
I've seen people in these comments argue that we need more government involvement in the economy, including government ownership in companies (like Trump wants with TikTok), because it's working so well for China. And we need to be more like China if we are to compete. That's right, the Trump defenders have said we need more authoritarian control of the economy. It's no surprise that they vehemently attack anyone who understands economics.
I can at least respect someone's intellectual honesty if they know and admit that's what they want. I have no respect for the argument that this view is proper conservative/libertarian theory.
Jesse's argument is just another one of his ad hominems. "Only simple minds believe economic principles. Smart people understand that they're nonsense."
If only you knew what an ad hominem attack was, Sarc.
I think the last 100 years has borne out that State Capitalism (nee Fascism) works, for the elite/managerial/political classes.
For the rest of us, not so much.
True
It will be different when Trump does it.
Unless you’re talking about my loose support of some tariffs/tariff threats, this Is a claim I’ve never made or defended.
What about his plan for the government to buy TikTok?
I’m pretty sure I’ve said before that is fucking stupid.
Now I have said I could at least see where they were coming from with the ban from a national security viewpoint, even though I ultimately disagree with any kind of outright ban (as a condition of government employment on the other hand…).
Designate, you're attempting to have a conversation with sarc. He's attempting to be a TDS rage filled troll.
Your goal can be zero tariffs yet maintain them if others do the same. Take away all tariffs and the US is quite competitive globally.
Except that's not Trump's goal. He wants to erect a wall of protective tariffs. He's been saying that since the 80s. He recently said that tariffs make us wealthy. Did you miss what he said about McKinley? Do you not see the logical inconsistency between protective tariffs and no tariffs? If so then why do you embrace one statement that he made that contradicts everything he's every said about the subject before and since?
By the way, you might want to read the above essay by Bastiat. It lays to waste all arguments in favor of protectionism.
Which is exactly what Trump and his staff have said even recently.
Again. Sarc doesn't want a free market. He wants other markets to be advantaged.
You must be furiously jacking it to your 8x10” glossy of Trump again. You probably also make the other hobos wear a Trump mask when they’re cornholimg you.
Google, created under the CIAs In-Q-Tel program, isn't a pure monopoly, but it uses government lobbying and the resulting regulations in such a way (primarily making it impossible to start-up) that it is effectively one.
It also does monopolistic practices, such as buying up potential competitors while small, and then shutting them down.
I think it's been caught off the hop with AI though, which is rapidly replacing Google search with the younger generations.
Eh, the better shorter answer is, it's none of the government's business, and I have zero doubt that government policies have helped Google get as big as they are. I don't know how, but when 99% of the problems tackled by government are the result of previous government "fixes", it's not hard to imagine that the other 1% are too.
I seldom use Google any more, maybe once a month when Duck Duck Go doesn't satisfy, and I usually find Google doesn't either.
The market will sort out Google. It has already begun, such as finding out they've been paying Apple $20 billion a year to be Apple's default search engine. That kind of money floating around creates a lot of incentives, and when Google buys up startups and shuts them down, that creates more incentives for more startups hoping for the same terrible fate, whose founders can then go on to new startups after a suitable delay.
AI has caught Google off-guard just as much as the Internet caught Microsoft off-guard. I'd much rather have an Android phone than an Apple iPhone, but there are alternatives if Google screws up Android.
I have far more faith in markets than governments.
What really cracks me up is that the Trump defenders are using Google to search for excuses to defend the Trump administration's hostility towards Google.
TTTRRRUUUMMMMPPPP!
TRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMP!!!!!1!!
Cite?
TDS much, motherfucker?
Your obsession with Trump gets more pathetic every day. Trump isn’t going to sodomize you, so get over it.
No wonder he's pissed, rejected at every turn.
Two things: I thought Root had been canned, as this is the first post of his that I've seen in years. Strange choice to give this to him.
Second:
this is more evidence that antitrust enforcers sometimes have 20/20 hindsight yet are legally blind about the future.
Laws should never consider future technology.
"Google Is Big. Does That Make It a Monopoly?"
To steaming piles of lefty shit? Yes.
To those who understand the English language? No.
anti-Greta Thunberg's are popping up
The kids are going to be alright.
Ha!
I fucking love chicken wings.
Chicken wings are great. The only question is, should they be grilled or fried, and what sauce to use?
Yes. Also smoked.
Also baked then air fried.
There’s really no wrong answers when it comes to wings.
Edit: I have a convection oven so the skin is already crispy just baking them.
Good thing we don't have to choose just one. That's how religious schisms are formed.
Exactly. Go the BWW route and get several sauces. ????
Rural Americans are abuzz as they believe Trump is about to lift controversial 100-year-old law that has Democrats furious
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14402517/Trump-lift-restrictions-gun-suppressors-silencers.html
Pretty sure that's a law, not an EO, and even Trump's EOs don't trump the law.
But under the National Firearms Act, which went into effect in 1934, suppressors are subjected to a $200 tax stamp for restricted weapons and accessories.
That's what I thought.
Meanwhile, steps are also being taken in Congress to deregulate the devices, with US Rep Ben Cline and US Sen. Mike Crapo reintroducing the Hearing Protection act in both chambers.
That's good.
But the bill has not gained any Democrat support thus far.
Figures.
Libertarians for gun control.
HE'S GETTING RID OF OUR GUN LAWS ILLEGALY!!1
How can Google be a monopoly when all conservatives have moved to DuckDuckGo?
It's like Wikipedia (which wingnuts also loathe). Now they have Conservapedia to house their "alternate facts".
Instead of the elite Harvard conservatives admire Hillsdale College.
There are no monopolies in a divided country.
DuckDuckGo started as their porn browser, but they started using it all the time so their WAGs wouldn't wonder why they have multiple browsers installed.
Well, sarc just told on himself, lol.
He's a old hand at that.
He needs to get a grip.
Take himself in hand.
He does that too much already.
turd, the TDS-addled ass-wipe of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
I’m sure you’re the expert on internet browsers. What with your child porn ‘hobby’
"when all conservatives have moved to DuckDuckGo?"
Wait, is this retard actually claiming that DuckDuckGo is conservative?
He isn't intelligent. Anything good right of Mao or Maddow is conservative to him.
That's not how logic works, though it's not a surprise that both you and Jesse think it is.
We’re not the ones posting illogical arguments and logical fallacies. That would be you, Sarc.
GOP bill would rename Greenland to "Red, White and Blueland"
...
A House Republican introduced a bill Tuesday that would enable President Trump's efforts to purchase Greenland — and rename it to "Red, White and Blueland."
...
Why it matters: Republican lawmakers loyal to Trump have scrambled to put together a series of bills that would codify the president's desire for a new era of American expansionism.
...
Driving the news: Rep. Earl "Buddy" Carter's (R-Ga.) two-page "Red, White, and Blueland Act of 2025'' would "authorize the President to enter into negotiations to acquire Greenland and to rename Greenland as 'Red, White, and Blueland.'"
https://www.axios.com/2025/02/11/greenland-red-white-blueland-trump-republicans
Then on to Canada.
Danes want to buy California. I say sold for Greenland.
Nah. Buy Greenland, and then send all the problem democrats there. One way.
turd, the TDS-addled ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
I love how much fun these guys are all having trolling the USAID funded establishment media.
Interesting Ukraine developements.
Donnie and his BFF Vlad are forcing Ukraine's surrender - no meeting, no NATO, give 50% of mineral rights to the USA, and divide the rest of the spoils.
#Pro-Soviet-Donnie
What, EXACTLY, is your solution?
Ukraine is not going to win. Nor will they regain the land they lost. We've given far more than is reasonable to expect anybody to give.
I know, you LOVE the idea of endless war. I do not.
Send Shrike to the eastern front.
Ukraine is not going to win.
Probably not.
But they can exhaust Russia like Afghanistan did and like the US was exhausted in Vietnam and Iraq.
It might take five more years. NATO should make sure they are armed.
That is my solution.
Donnie has clearly sided with Vlad though.
In which the retarded child-porn spreader fails to learn why 9/11 happened.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
Evil.
I love how you neocon fucks haven’t learned a goddamn thing in 40 fucking years.
Not. A. Goddamn. Thing.
The "neocon fucks" would be Vlad and Donnie.
They want resource-rich Ukraine to split.
“But they can exhaust Russia like Afghanistan did”
That’s you just above pushing for perpetual war with Russia and for us funding it (you know we were the primary backers of the Mujahideen, right?)
So no, fucktard, the neocons are the people like you and Liz Cheney pushing for forever war.
the Ukraine wont have any more men to fight in just over 1 year so I guess we'll see the progressive utopia of having the women and trannies fight then... for the next 2 days... then collapse of Ukraine
Projection. You are the neocon fuck here, Bushpig.
"But they can exhaust Russia like Afghanistan did"
"Ahahahahaha... another 80,000 Ukrainian youth fed into my Raytheon/Halliburton woodchipper so we can 'exhaust' Russia."
You're functionally evil, Buttplug.
But they can exhaust Russia like Afghanistan did and like the US was exhausted in Vietnam and Iraq.
That was Biden's policy.
And it was an unnecessary failure.
turd, the ass-wipe of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
"He who saves his country has not violated any law"
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-if-it-saves-country-its-not-illegal-2025-02-16/
Quote attributed to Napoleon, now also attributed to Trump.
Let me guess, we should give him the benefit of the doubt? It's just trolling? It's 9-D chess? Democrats did it first? Which excuse will it be today?
Supposedly Trump said to Chris Christie somethings along the lines of "Don't worry about the law or the Constitution. Do whatever you want. By the time challenges make their way through the courts you'll be out of office and it won't matter."
Not sure if the story is true or not, but it sure looks like Trump has taken the advice.
The Progression of a Trump Defender
1. He didn't say it
2. Okay he said it, but he didn't mean it
3. Okay he said it and he meant it, but you should take him seriously not literally
4. Okay he said it and he meant it and he meant it literally, but it's okay because he has good motives and Democrats did it first
You forgot the part where it's ok because you didn't attack Democrats when they did it. Otherwise that's pretty good.
Nice circle jerk you’ve got going on. How about you two get a room so you can get it on more.
Sarc's only gay for pay, and far too old for Jeffy.
Hey, maybe you two faggots can go fuck each other. Somewhere else.
"Not sure if the story is true or not"
I'm pretty sure that you know damn well it's not, but that's not going to stop you, is it?
Hey Lying Jeffy, you never answered Designates question the other day:
https://reason.com/2025/02/14/j-d-vance-brings-the-culture-war-to-europe-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town/?comments=true#comment-10917697
"Quote attributed to Napoleon, now also attributed to Trump"
HE QUOTED NAPOLEON!!!
NO POLITICIAN HAS EVER DONE THAT BEFORE!!! (except for tens of thousands) THAT'S PRACTICALLY HITLER!!!
I always get a chuckle at all the stupid shit Chemjeff's bosses try to get people freaked out over. If Biden had quoted Napoleon we'd be hearing from Jeffy about how educated and erudite he is.
So are we at stage 2? "He said it, but he didn't mean it"?
How long until we get to stage 3?
Hey Lying Jeffy, you never answered Designates question the other day:
https://reason.com/2025/02/14/j-d-vance-brings-the-culture-war-to-europe-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town/?comments=true#comment-10917697
This isn't a "progression", its a list of fucking options that happen hundreds of times a day, you retard.
My take:
1. He didn't say it and the media is purposefully lying because they're bribed hacks or political zealots with less morals than Pravda in the 50's - 80% of the time
2. Okay he said it, but he didn't mean it - 0% of the time
3. Okay he said it and if it somehow happens that would be great, but he's mostly just baiting the fuck out of the establishment fascists - 10% of the time
4. Okay he said it and he meant it and he meant it literally and Jeffy thinks it's somehow bad but everyone else thinks that it's awesome - 10% of the time
Now, this is really going to make you freak out, Shill.
ABC’s Jon Karl: Trump’s favorability is now HIGHER than it ever was in his first term.
- 63% want the government to recognize only two sexes
- 60% support deporting illegal aliens
- 60% favor expanding oil & gas production
Trump pardons disgraced former Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich
..
"I mean, I've got this thing, and it's [expletive] golden. And I'm just not giving it up for [expletive] nothing," Blagojevich said.
Birds of a feather. Apprentice of Donnie.
https://www.npr.org/2025/02/10/g-s1-47817/trump-pardon-rod-blagojevich-illinois-corruption
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
The former Democratic governor also declared himself a "Trump-ocrat."
Even Democrats can get out of prison by pledging loyalty to Trump.
He got out of prison years ago dumbass.
Sarc's not interested in facts.
Worked for Tulsi.
Fuck, are you still working the Russian spy smear? What a dishonest piece of shit you are.
I hope some angry dad gets ahold of you soon.
Goddamn, you’re fully retarded.
Blagojevich fought with the national DNC and was railroaded by their crooked prosecutors with charges for things that weren't even illegal, as a lesson. He has long since gotten out.
There was absolutely nothing to be gained by Trump in pardoning Blagojevich, but he did it because it was the right thing to do.
If you and Jeff and Sarckles weren't completely evil by now you'd have realized this.
You're really, really bad people.
But they will both say in the very next thread how pro liberty they are. Also say how firing bad state actors is immoral. But using the state for political purposes? Both great with that.
Are the statutes written so vaguely as to admit equally of these two interpretations?
Has anyone seen sarc? He seems to not be on much anymore.
Last I saw, he’s jerking off Jeffy.
Who?
I have no clue, he must never show up.
He’s busy watching internet porn on his duckduckgo browser.
Shrike told him where to find the young stuff.
I've been told her is an expert programmer. But I'm also guessing he doesn't know how to use a private window.
This late into the weekend I doubt he could program his TV remote.
He has a tv in his refrigerator box?
This late in the weekend? Probably.
You don’t hate the MSM enough. You might think you do, but you don’t:
“Utterly bizarre assertion from Margaret Brennan. She claims the Nazi Holocaust occurred because "free speech was weaponized" in Germany, thus making Vance's comments all the more worrisome. Recasting the Holocaust as a consequence of excessive free speech is just totally bonkers”
https://x.com/mtracey/status/1891200759317803176
I have no idea how a person could think free speech could be 'weaponized' and it seems they made no effort to elaborate.
Pretty sure if you didn't support the NAZI regime's stated opinion that everything was the fault of the Jews you ended up in the same place they did, or just sent to the frontlines to catch bullets.
If someone interprets that as 'free speech' of any kind I have a bridge to sell them in Brooklyn.
Europe is more than willing to take our equipment and money for defense, then turn around and pretend we're NAZI. If that's true, what does that make them?
No blood for Eurotrash.
Ever again.
Clearly the holocaust happened because there aren't enough time traveling baby murders.
Or everybody in the future loves Hitler.
"She claims the Nazi Holocaust occurred because "free speech was weaponized" in Germany"
This is a popular lie being spread everywhere right now, but it's not actually remotely true.
Weimar Germany was constantly banning and censoring the Communists and Nazis, right up until the Nazis took the Reichstag.
They would shut down their presses and their speeches every chance they got. Especially after the Munich putsch.
In fact interest in the Nazis increased precisely because of all the ridiculous censorship attempts. People wanted to see what the fuss was about, and Hitler was a competent public speaker.
If you see people trying to peddle this lie, correct them quickly, because it's a dangerous lie.
If it is being spread everywhere, it's obviously a talking point from one of the influence peddlers. Like an act blue type of astroturfing. Because this kind of ridiculous statement doesn't get traction by itself, it has to be amplified to get past the normal "fuck off, dude, how stupid are you?" response you'd get to it in RealLife™ if you said something this obtuse.
More and more I wonder what kind of an evil fuck you have to be to spread these kinds of messages, ones meant only and specifically to be divisive and to destroy trust in public discourse.
The people meanwhile who are pushing the lie are advocating what the Nazis actually did to free speech as the solution to a historical fiction that they created.
There was no free speech in Nazi Germany. There was none. There was also no opposition in Nazi Germany. They were the sole and only party that governed that country.
Rubio noted “Free speech was not used to conduct a genocide. The genocide was conducted by an authoritarian Nazi regime that happened to also be genocidal because they hated Jews and they hated minorities"
The people behind this lie are about as evil as they come, maybe even on par with the Nazis they aspire to be.
Right there with you, ITL.
That's precisely the point of these astroturfed talking points, and why they are evil.
Spin everything so what you're doing is blamed on someone else. Make it an obvious lie but force everyone to repeat it, if you can. It completely degrades trust, cultural cohesion, even people's trust in themselves because it paints an image of a huge cohort who deeply believe the lie regardless of the true state of societal beliefs and it is natural to judge your own views against others in your culture.
It's so fucking evil. Its only purpose is to sow unhappiness and discontent, to break down cultural bonds. Ever since Media Matters got past having people listen to right wing talk shows hoping to find a statement they could paint as racist and started with this kind of shit using the internet and the beholden media, the world has been a much worse place than it could be for most of us. This is what enemies of the west and of liberty do. Like China, Russia, Iran -- actual despotic regimes -- to try and make us ungovernable. And, sadly, they learned it from the opportunists here.
Heh, I'm just bitching. A pretty good subset of every internet forum are 50 centers anymore, at least anything political or news focused. Even here. I'll never know, but it would be interesting to have miraculous insight and see just what level of engagement on news comment sections, or reddit, or wherever is organic and what's bot and sockpuppet. Pull back the veil on that and nobody would trust anything on the internets, ever. And they shouldn't.
And they shouldn't.
Particularly not if it’s from “experts “.
This is why I'm hounding Lying Jeffy about his comment in the Petti article. While not as bad as comparing Vance to Hitler, it's still in the same category. Demonizing someone for scolding a bunch of authoritarians for violating freedom of speech and free expression because you don't like them is disgusting.
It’s par for the course for Jeffy. It’s one reason ML calls him a Nazi. Jeffy loves to cloak himself in the garb of libertarianism, but he’s anything but libertarian. He’s authoritarian to totalitarian, couching his words in boaf sidez, and not forcing something if everyone does it, but using government guns to force those who fail to comply. That’s the essence of his infamous bears in trunks shit.
And I think it's important to identify Jeff and people with his worldview as Nazis and note all the parallels, precisely because of the danger to a free people they pose, while donning a compassion skinsuit ripped from the dead carcass of actual empathy.
Lying Jeffy is truly evil.
So when will Google come out like Facebook and say they will no longer adhere to the W.H. and Congresses censorship letters??
I think this Anti-trust case is BS.
But it is a direct consequence of Democrats under-cover "Ministry of Truth".
The honorable thing to do would be to Impeach every last D.C. official with their name on any of those censorship letters.
Poor Lying Jeffy:
https://x.com/LibertyCappy/status/1891215132539359298
The real reason he hates RFK Jr.
I mean it’s pretty obviously not.
Not as long as there's still VH1.
Imagine... for a moment, that I made a movie... and it was a movie about how President Trump had to save America and the world from supervillains Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden who attempt to take over the worlds "news narratives" using Deepfakes and fake news... and in which the climatic scene Donald Trump Kung Fu fights Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Sound pretty funny? A bit farcical like the movie Black Dynamite where Black Dynamite Kung fu fights Richard Nixon and even smashes Pat Nixon into a china cabinet? A farcical comedy like that? "Pretty funny" is what you might think. Now imagine I made this movie but... but it wasn't a comedy, it was deadly serious. Would you laugh then? Well, someone made that movie.
Holy crap, how awful.
Bug budget D film Die hard parody (i think) with viola Davis.
Pass.
No. No no no no no.
No.
Holy shit they just played the trailer for this during the all star game!
Aaaaand ... as always before and yet again, there is no such thing as a monopoly except those imposed by government. Natural monopolies cannot exist for long. If a monopoly starts it can only continue as long as it provides the best goods and services at the lowest possible price. If a monopoly gets greedy and tries to raise prices or reduce quality, competitors will arise to provide better goods and services at lower prices. The only way to prevent that is as an unintended (or intended) consequence of government intervention. If the intent of regulation is to optimize the benefit of consumers, regulation almost never achieves that.
Of course, the dumbest part of this case was how the court defined the market. There is no 'online search market' - you don't buy a search tool, and google doesn't make money from the search functionality (nor does any other search engine I can think of).
The proper market is the *advertising* market, which is how Google actually makes money, and Google has significantly less than 50% of the advertising space. (All digital advertising accounted for ~65% of advertising in 2022, and search engine advertising is only a fraction of that).
Easy answer for experienced antitrust lawyers. US monopoly power is defined as at least 40 percent of any relevant product or service in a given geographic market, in this case the US. Google Chrome has more than 49 percent of the US browsing market not counting additional Google browsing not using Chrome like I have on my phone. Google Chrome also has about 70 percent of the global browsing market, impressive because China registers well under 1 percent. These numbers present, at least facially, an open and shut numbers case under the Sherman Act monopolization (and attempted monopolization) statute. Google compounds its antitrust exposure by tying its Chrome browsing to various ad practices, which runs afoul to Clayton Act anti-tying restrictions.
Microsoft had much the same numbers problem which got it hammered in federal court. Google has some defenses stronger than Microsoft, namely that its browser is so superior to all others that its numbers accrue naturally by consumer preference. I have tried them all and support this defense. In addition, nothing prohibits other companies from creating browsers even better than Chrome, namely one with the same search results reliability without the clunky extensions, Google and other unwanted popups, and much better user privacy protections. Whoever can develop the latter will wipe the floor with Chrome, especially offering the same great or even better search results. Ease of competitor market entry always affects antitrust monopoly case decisions and probably will here. What made Microsoft vulnerable was its 70%-plus operating systems US and world market shares, with no easy way to enter this product market, which not even Apple could dent and didn't really try to.. Despite losing most of the antitrust court cases here and in Europe, Microsoft has survived and thrived since despite an inferior browser.