The Peculiar Phenomenon of Libertarians Supporting Donald Trump
Libertarians owe nothing to would-be authoritarians.

Former President Donald Trump's sketch comedy portrayal of a would-be authoritarian, filtered through his antic norms-busting style, gives his fans an out: Libertarians nervous about Trump are just too uptight and antiquated to understand his appeal in this comedy podcast age, they might say. Being sincerely alarmed about Trump makes you the yokel—a deluded victim of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
But Trump, through the insult comedy and random ravings, is consistently a man of authoritarian temperament: He craves using government power to punish media that displeases him (including threatening broadcast licenses); desires legal immunity from accountability for himself and all government law enforcement; and most significantly, his prime campaign action point is launching an unprecedented in this century police/military action against millions of people living peacefully and productively in America.
His appeal to some who use the libertarian label is perplexing, then—except in that he's not Vice President Kamala Harris. Harris is also someone no libertarian could affirmatively wish to be president—except that she's not Trump.
Libertarians should have the courage of their claimed convictions to radically oppose the U.S. government status quo (which in the past eight years has been managed or represented by both Trump and Harris) and feel no obligation to positively affirm that either unlibertarian choice should reign. Not voting or promoting either is an appropriate option. Voting for or promoting Libertarian Party candidate Chase Oliver is an option as well.
Even on specific issues that seem to animate the more right-leaning corners of the libertarian world, Trump is either terrible or not clearly exceptional: He ruled as an inflationist and intends to continue to; he has no real concrete ideas for shrinking spending or government's size and reach, and certainly didn't do so in his first term, while vaguely and improbably promising Elon Musk will take care of it in a second; Trump can be expected to expand government spending and control in the name of allegedly pro-worker industrial policy that will likely have no better effect on America's fortunes than past industrial policy efforts; while championing "free speech" for ideas and people he favors, he's willing to punish peaceful expressive activities such as flag burning and peaceful economic activities such as drug sale with death (while improbably promising libertarians he'll do something he could have done when he was previously president, freeing convicted Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht); he's fanatically against free trade, a central tenet of free market economics, and his administration was responsible for what many libertarians never want us to forget was "COVID tyranny" and also for—even more destructive in many contrarians' eyes—COVID vaccines. (One might, if one chooses, take seriously his various off-the-cuff plans to eliminate wide swaths of the current tax system and law in place of tariffs, but I don't see much reason to.)
When it comes to foreign policy—which is generally the fallback for libertarians excusing their Trumpism—yes, he didn't start new wars in new places. But he didn't completely wind down or withdraw any sprawling existing U.S. commitments. He revved up the amount of bombing and civilian casualties at the start of his administration in Afghanistan and was slow to get out (an operation President Joe Biden concluded). He increased drone strikes in Pakistan and Somalia. He escalated our insanely destructive Saudi-aiding intervention in Yemen in violation of the War Powers Act. He claimed he was going to get U.S. troops out of Syria then changed his mind.
Even this week, he's threatening to "blow to smithereens" Iran if he believes it harmed a domestic politician, and has long insisted that under no circumstances can Iran ever have a nuclear weapon. Trump the peacenik is largely an invention, or rationalization, of his antiwar fans who also like him for other reasons. In general, he kept both the expense and reach of the American empire's military-industrial complex growing or at least the same. (It does seem likely that if he wins he won't be as enthusiastic about funding and supplying the ongoing war started by the Russian invasion of Ukraine.)
People perplexed by or ignorant of the libertarian world's anarchist end are particularly puzzled that what many think marks Trump most clearly unfit for office—his role in instigating the January 6 protests/riots/assault on the Capitol and interfering in the "peaceful transfer of power" via election—some libertarians don't care much about, and can find phrases such as "unfit for office" risible to begin with given government's inherent evils.
After all, as some see it, only the Capitol and its inhabitants or defenders were harmed or even discomfited by the invaders, most of whom were not violent; it's cool to scare government officials anyway; and if democracy is an inherently illegitimate cover for granting control of a machine of violence and oppression then protecting its outcome isn't that vital, and who can prove the vote wasn't rigged anyway?
Whether democracy is ethically justified or not in libertarian terms, it simply is better for libertarians and other living creatures given existing realities for that hoary old "peaceful transfer of power" to happen unimpeded. Civil war or even just mass unrest over who gets to be president is objectively very bad for peace, freedom, and market-oriented civilization. Those who participate in and support Trump's "enemies within" schtick are objectively enemies of that civilization—especially given a reasonable perspective on what's likely actually at stake in whether Trump or Harris wins.
An election that serious partisans try to frame as communists versus fascists should alarm anyone who remembers early 20th century European history. Does anyone really believe Harris will be nationalizing industries or fully confiscating all the wealth and property of Americans beyond tinkering at the margins of the taxation system that already exists? (The politics and jurisprudence of gun control this century I think also indicate she would never succeed in any gun confiscation scheme she might harbor in her heart.) Harris certainly has policy ideas that will be terrible for the American economy, such as stringent antitrust blows against tech companies and wealth taxes on unrealized gains. But Harris—especially given that she would almost certainly be constrained by Republicans in either or both the Senate and House—will more likely mostly continue governing as we've been governed for the past four years (and really the past 40). She'll overtax and overregulate. Her bureaucracy will be overly concerned with enforcing racial or other identity concerns and quotas. She'll continue our current military force structure, commitments, and expense.
Harris' likely administration is nothing any libertarian, or any American, should want either, but no American—certainly no libertarian—is obligated to choose between these two evils. There is a reason libertarians tend to be amenable to the point that in a presidential election their individual vote is not going to make a winner a winner or a loser a loser. Thus a vote is useful only expressively. And what you are expressing by voting for Trump is approval of Trump's policies, which as explained above for a libertarian seems indefensible. A libertarian in an un-libertarian country is much more effective as a true all-sides foe of overweening government. That Trump seems to think he ought to pander to libertarians on selected, disconnected issues is great; but that doesn't mean any libertarian needs to actually support him, especially when his likely actions are considered in total, not just the libertarianish bits.
Fear about the wild evils the Other Side will commit if in power are a very strong motive power in American politics today. It's rhetorically effective because you can't win an argument about how some group in power will behave with reason or evidence; such claims can only be judged with common sense and ratified by time.
It makes pundits or voters who want to see themselves as reasonable people nervous—it's made me nervous!—to be proven to be a panicked ninny, fearing or predicting bad outcomes that never come about. Free market libertarians should be used to this; we have feared or predicted many disastrous outcomes of government action in America that have not yet come about, from hyperinflationary collapse to World War III to a social credit system. Sometimes ginning up public fear can actually have salutary effects in making sure the fear doesn't come true. But it's not the worst sin to be overly careful when it comes to who controls the federal leviathan.
Certainly both candidates are dangerous to American liberty, and both will continue to run a government at least as huge and controlling in most respects as the one we have now. But only one has a short-term promise to assault and kidnap and ship out millions of residents who have harmed no one's life or property, and in doing so destroy huge chunks of America's productive economy, disrupting the lives of the other millions of legal citizens who hire them, work for them, depend on their services, or rent and sell to them. Only one has major supporters who cheer a masochistic vision of him as a "daddy" righteously punishing a misbehaving nation. That person is, at least as much as Harris, simply not someone who should run the federal government. And that should be especially clear to those who claim fealty to libertarian principles.
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Jesus Christ. The articles today are already bonkers.
Reason pulling out all the stops to try to derail the Trump train.
Came in with the exact same reaction. TDS of Brian is real.
Ron Paul may have been the finishing blow.
My thoughts exactly as I scanned today's headlines.
I wonder when this comment section will stop pretending it's libertarian.
The so-called Libertarian candidate for Senate in Texas is running ads accusing Ted Cruz of not doing enough to "SAVE OUR CIVILIZATION" and being soft on immigration.
I don't believe it....
A Libertarian Candidate has money to run ads??
I live in Texas. I've only ever seen Collin Alred ads. But, to be fair, I don't watch regular tv.
Yes, outside of Houston. Allred has constant ads. Tried of hearing Katie Cox.
Allred's ads are just lies. He doesn't actually run on a record. It was good to finally see some Cruz ads
Dude, check Dr. Paul's X-account (& Elon Musk's!). Just this weekend, Ron was invited into Trump's transition-team by Elon, and the good doctor approved. THUS, a vote for Trump = a vote for Ron Paul!
Doherty’s commentary is completely unhinged and not libertarian in the slightest.
If Trump wins, there will be an army of thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of government apparatchiks ready and willing to check any unconstitutional (or fully constitutional) power grabs. And these will be aided and abetted by a supremely hostile Democrat party and MSM. Just recall his first term.
If Kamala were to win, these same forces would be working with her administration to expand its power and oppress the American people. 2nd Amendment – gone. Free speech – suppressed. SCOTUS undermined, maybe packed with sycophants. Jews harrassed unopposed. Criminals ignored. Children subjected to unnecessary surgeries and hormone treatments in the hope they will be happier as trans humans. Taxes increased, hobbling enterpreneurs and sending them to Gault’s Gulch. Wars continued at a staggering cost in treasure and reputation. Illegal immigrants pouring into the country, draining social service budgets and elbowing out Americans from schools, hospitals, and jobs.
And this idiot thinks Kamala is the libertarian choice??? Wow!
I agree with you BigT.
You have to separate a politicians' words from their acts, and Trump says a lot of things that are biased marketing pitches, but he's done nothing authoritarian I can think of. You can't blame Trump for the spending: Congress is addicted to it, and doesn't offer Trump anything but the opportunity to shut down the government; thus, it's a battle Trump doesn't fight (but he endorses fiscal conservatives).
While I'm against total immunity for government personnel, they should be personally immune from doing their jobs, but not violating people's civil rights. But do you blame Trump for defending his immunity? For God's sake, he was impeached for asking Ukraine to ensure Biden followed US law.
As a long time libetarian, I want illegal aliens with criminal records deported, along with those receiving any welfare: those people have violated the non-aggression principle and harmed us.
As a libertarian, I much prefer Trump's foreign policy approach of killing the generals and leaders who kill US soldiers and citizens, rather than going to war.
And as a libertarian, I'd much rather have tariffs (which is how the federal government was almost entirely funded until about 1910) than an income tax. Especially when trade is controlled by politicians making deals to allow it or not. Trump is using tariffs to persuade other countries to eliminate their tariffs (a very good libertarian objective) that will eventually lead to lower prices where people get the value of the products/services rather than politicians or governments. His reciprocal trade proposal does exactly that.
Regarding Afghanistan, the author accusing Trump of being slow to get out, ignores that he didn't make any mistakes in doing so and had a plan to do so. But Biden, knowing how popular it was, tried to take credit for it, but totally botched it up so bad, no foreigner will ever believe the US military, or help them for many years to come.
Exactly!
I didn’t vote for either of ’em. But if you just have to vote D or R, then Trump seems less risky than another Democratic administration.
and his administration was responsible for what many libertarians never want us to forget was "COVID tyranny" and also for—even more destructive in many contrarians' eyes—COVID vaccines.
Sarc like understanding of reality here.
Governors locked down states, not Trump. Even when democrats demanded Trump act as an authoritarian and shut things down, he did not. Then in May Trump, to the chagrin of people loke Bailey, he said to open things back up. He was attacked even here for that.
He was also against mandates, telling people to do what they thought best. While Robbie and Sullum were crying about governors loke DeSantis giving people the right to refuse vaccines.
Fuck off Brian.
Trump encouraged lock downs and slagged Kemp, DeSantis and several other Governors for opening up too early.
Trump's record is not clean in this regard.
This is when you ignore his record and look at what he says. Until he says something stupid, which is when you ignore it and look at his record. Until he does something stupid, which is when you ignore it and look at what he said. See how that works?
How broken are you? Spiraling with democrats possibly losing like Mike and Jeff. Weird reaction from the clown crew.
Fuck off, retard. That's you, not Jesse.
You must have missed "in May" during your rant. He was castigated across media for it. He was castigated for talking about alternative treatments.
So... you're wrong?
Even at that, the larger narrative is between dishonest and retardedly untrue.
Der TrumpenFührer attempted to block immigration *from (just) China* before (some) Governors locked *everyone* in their homes and started talking about vaccine passports. There may have been disagreement between Trump and DeSantis about opening up all the ports in FL without a vaccine or whatever, but that's a distraction compared to, e.g., Biden openly talking about vaccine mandates and Newsom fucking up supply chains for years afterwards.
IOW, Trump’s authoritarianism was okay because the Democrats are worse. Got it.
Yeah, “take this experimental vaccine or lose your job” was much worse than anything Trump did.
It's not "OK," but in a choice between horrific leftist Communist traitor totaliarianism and merely annoying and stupid Trumpian authoritarianism, the latter is indeed the MUCH lesser of two evils.
If the Libertarian Party wanted my vote, they shouldn't have nominated a double-masking, child-mutilating, vax-pushing, only playing make-believe 2A supporter Dem-Lite candidate. Barf.
Just like in 2020, when JoJo and Spike should have been anti-mandate and pro-America, but instead they were anti-"racist" pro open-borders. Seriously, that was THE FIRST thing I heard out of their mouths. And then it was the last, because it was completely f**king tone deaf.
I am someone who voted LP 4 of 5 elections 2000-2016. Everyone but the drug warrior guy in '08, where the choices were even more miserable than what we have now. I haven't seen a good reason to since.
You must have missed “in May” during your rant.
Oh, so it's okay with you that Trump was a COVID authoritarian "in May". Got it.
Aren't you still a covid authoritarian?
I'm not running for President.
Is Trump's COVID authoritarianism okay because it was "in May"?
Well no, it was definitely wrong; in May, or any other month. Isn’t the point though, that trump got over the authoritarianism faster than most, including you?
Pedo Jeffy’s sole argument is essentially ‘but….. but…… TRUMP!!!!!!!’.
Fuck off you leftist cunt. The first few months you leftists were all screaming about mass deaths if nothing was done now you're screaming that you got exactly what you fucking demanded but not nearly as much as your authoritarian team wanted but still he's somehow worse. FUCK OFF YOU DISHONEST CUNT.
No Jeff, he wasn’t authoritarian “in May” because he didn’t FORCE the governors to open their states back up, he just pushed for it with words.
Goddamn, how have you gotten more disingenuous.
Forcing them to open would probably have been justifiable "authoritarianism," too, as the states were violating their residents' rights.
Declare them in insurrection and be done with it. I mean if a bunch of unarmed yahoos rioting is an "insurrection," then restricting the freedom of movement of millions of innocent people would seem to have to qualify to anyone not doing completely ridiculous mental gymnastics.
Amd the J6 people weren’t really ‘rioting’ all that much. Not when you compare it to the ‘mostly peaceful’ democrat riots of 2020. Where the democrats brined, raped and murdered.
Oh, oh! Not perfect, therefore horrible.
FOAD, asshole.
even more destructive in many contrarians’ eyes—COVID vaccines.
Sarc like understanding of reality here.
"How do you do fellow Trump voters? I too am unvaccinated."
Secularists lecturing the faithful about the secularists expectations of the faithful based on the faithful's own beliefs.
Vaccinated people lecturing garbage people about their expectations of the garbage peoples' (people's?) behavior based on the garbage peoples' perception of the vaccine.
Media personalities lecturing the public about their expectations of the way the public should behave.
Fuck 'em all with the business end of a loaded shotgun.
People is the plural of person, so it should always be "people's" if you're referring to something possessed by more than one person.
[Insert Ranier Wolfcastle ThatsTheJoke.gif here]
Let's not forget, it was Fauci, making deals so he could get gain of function research done in China even though it was against Obama's policy who brought us the Covid pandemic and all the deaths (and other harm) associated with the manufactured virus and the vaccines.
Trump's actions, were very libertarian in the sense he exposed it all. The FDA, CDC, and NIH are now all suspect regarding their honesty and actions to "protect us". Trump merely let them speak and expose their own lies. That's a very ethical way to expose the corrupt, when he could have taken an authoritarian approach and prosecuted everyone involved in creating the virus and letting Fauci approve the funding (I'd bet he was getting money from the vaccine makers).
Yes there are legitimate, libertarian reasons to choose Trump over Kamala. Many. Look at those he put around him this time. I like that group, particularly Vivek and Elon. (JD Vance is wrong of course)
Hundreds, but you only have to look at what she, her running mate and dozens of other high-placed Democrats have openly said about free speech to realize that the Democrats are everything Doherty is inferring Trump is.
Exactly….victor David Hanson has pointed out the exact same thing.
But Trump, through the insult comedy and random ravings, is consistently a man of authoritarian temperament: He craves using government power to punish media that displeases him (including threatening broadcast licenses); desires legal immunity from accountability for himself and all government law enforcement; and most significantly, his prime campaign action point is launching an unprecedented in this century police/military action against millions of people living peacefully and productively in America.
Oh yeah? Well Democrats did it first, so that makes it ok. Besides, you didn't complain when Democrats did it first, which makes you a leftist with TDS. Leftist! Leftist! You're a dirty leftist!
Yawn.
Leftists are so boring.
Sarc has nothing to say, and he’s saying it too loudly.
Rare author doesn't shit on Trump - "Shee, you guyz always lie that they're picking on orangehitler, this article doesn't exist".
Author shits all over Trump as usual: "Boaf sides, no, wait, wHaTaBoutiSM, and U R just mad at leftists!!!!"
Look, it's retarded. This is why pregnant mothers shouldn't drink excessively.
Poor sarc.
Shorter sarc: "Bad ideas are not bad if they are ORIGINAL! Also, allowing one side to make rules and use them against the other, then that is fine. It is ONLY bad if the other side returns said favor"
It’s like be doesn’t understand electoral politics. At all.
I don’t know of Sarc started life with severe cognitive deficits, but he suffers from them now.
Shorter Sarc: “democrats did it twenty times as much, but TRUMP!!!!!!”
Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.
Has Brian actually talked to someone who fits this description, or is this just an argument against the commentary? If it's the latter, just make the paywall permanent.
C'mon man! It wouldn't be Progressive Reasoning Magazine if there weren't at least the possibility of him duking it out with the straw men in his own head on the internet.
More detail, please.
What is so peculiar about opposing tyranny?
The reality is that there are 2 presidential candidates who could win this election. One has already held the position and has a track record that doesn't align with the cries of authoritatianism here. The other candidate has a history of very authoritarian desires and aligns very poorly with libertarian priorities. She is part of the current administration that has damaged the country in numerous ways and actively pursued a corrupt anti-freedom agenda. If forced to make a choice between the two, Trump is clearly the lesser evil at a minimum.
Don't like what Trump says? Ignore it and look at his record.
Don't like Trump's record? Ignore it and look at what he says.
Or just repeat MSNBC narratives while screaming he is Hitler like you do.
Who needs to analyze reality or record when you have Jen Psaki and Maddow on your side
Psaki and Maddow? You mean Sarc’s heroes?
Tell us about all the authoritarian bits in Trump's record, drunky.
Poor, poor sarc.
Pour Sarc indeed.
Libertarians owe nothing to would-be authoritarians.
Agreed, which is why I really struggle to understand how writers for this magazine overwhelmingly prefer Harris, a bona fide authoritarian, over Trump, a man whose record as president cannot be credibly viewed as authoritarian.
They live in a leftist bubble and can’t afford to pretend Orangeman isn’t the baddest
So they are spineless cowards and deserve nothing but mockery and derision.
Is this Reason's "the libertarian case for Kamala Harris" ?
To the retarded binary-thinking caveman brain that equates criticism of Trump with praise for Harris, yes. Yes indeed.
"Everyone here is a caveman but me"
-sarc
He’s so binary,
But don't you dare call him a Democrat, Bertram. He only happens to be always fighting for the Democrats by coincidence.
Sarc would be voting for Chase all the way if gay people were allowed to run for president in Maine. He swears it.
How many articles do they have that are premised upon how unacceptable Harris is as a candidate?
The discrepancy makes their bias clear.
How many articles do they have that are premised upon how unacceptable Harris is as a candidate?
Is that a trick question? Because those articles critical of Harris and of Democrats don't exist. They can't exist, because criticism of one side equals praise for the other, and tReason has never praised Trump, ever. They hate him.
In the few articles critical of dems you are on there throwing shit at Republicans. Discuss.
There are plenty of articles pointing out how bad Harris is.
Now, your complaint is that there are even more about Trump. But there’s a good reason for that. This is a news and issues site that speaks to libertarians and often tries to dispel misconceptions.
There are not a lot of people reading this site who mistakenly think Harris is a pro-freedom candidate. There's no misconception that needs rebutting. On the hand, there are a huge number of liars claiming Trump is some kind of libertarian, and an even larger number of gullible suckers who believe them. So Reason has a job to do correcting this, and they’re doing it.
Say White Mike, do you only come here to shill for the Democrats around election time?
Quit with the stolen valor. Only US Citizen Trump supporters qualify for the title of Garbage.
Caw caw!
FOAD, asshole.
Only US Citizen Trump supporters qualify for the title of Garbage.
Wait, the guy with nothing to offer but support for his boyfriends and is on here every day, every article, talking shit isn't even a fucking US citizen? what a loser
Fuck you. Only one sexy Scottish lass qualifies for the title of Garbage.
Dee! You bitch!
"Quit with the stolen valor."
Wait, DOL was your sock too?
There are plenty of articles pointing out how bad Harris is.
No, there are exactly zero articles complaining about Harris. We know this because criticism of Harris equals praise for Trump, and the narrative says tReason hates Trump. That means that any articles you see that are critical of Harris do not exist.
There are not a lot of people reading this site who mistakenly think Harris is a pro-freedom candidate.
There are a lot of people reading this site who see criticism of Trump as claiming Harris is pro-freedom, meaning that tReason claims Harris is pro-freedom. All those articles saying she’s not pro-freedom don’t exist because they contradict the narrative.
On the hand, there are a huge number of liars claiming Trump is some kind of libertarian
True.
and an even larger number of gullible suckers who believe them.
Why shouldn’t they? It’s not like tReason has ever criticized Harris.
Such a tired bit.
Such a retarded bit.
Your definition of plenty and mine might differ. Like, it shouldn't be nearly wall to wall "Trump bad" articles. But YMMV.
Poor, poor, poor, sarc.
Deliberately didn't read the article:
It makes the case that Libertarians should vote for Chase Oliver instead of Trump right?
Right?
Yeah, but I was told chase is gay, and that’s why nobody is voting for him.
Wait! What?!!! Chase is gay? This is the kind of November surprise that could derail his impending victory.
Nobody will vote for a gay guy, just ask Sarckles. He has his finger on the pulse of libertarian homophobia.
Don’t blame me,
I voted for the
Gay Guy.
Needs to be a t-shirt…
Libertarianism is all fun and games until your kid gets castrated and you’re forced to bake a gay wedding cake.
He’s obviously not gay enough. If he was, he would be a democrat and blindly support Kamala.
Maybe he’s just bi.
But only one has a short-term promise to assault and kidnap and ship out millions of residents who have harmed no one's life or property, and in doing so destroy huge chunks of America's productive economy, disrupting the lives of the other millions of legal citizens who hire them, work for them, depend on their services, or rent and sell to them.
Is this where we ignore what he says and look at his record, or ignore his record and look at what he says? I can never tell. Regardless, once we cleanse the nation of those dirty vermin we can start making American great again. But we can't as long as those filthy foreigners without papers are poisoning the blood of the nation. Once we round them up and take care of them we can move on to other dissidents like leftists and marxists and fascists, and anyone else who stands in the way of making America great again.
Honest question. Are you autistic?
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
You can tell by Sarc's short stature, wide-spaced eyes and smooth philtrum. Mom binge drank.
Fetal alcohol syndrome, toddler alcohol syndrome, tween alcohol syndrome. Teen alcohol syndrome, and lifelong adult alcohol syndrome.
So that dull little nugget between his ears is now just a tiny dried up little prune.
Sarc, it is true that his bark is worse than his bite. That was certainly the case in his first term.
I don’t think his average supporters will be all that disappointed if the Great Cleansing turns out to be about a tenth of what he promised. They’re like professional wrestling fans. They just like the smack talk, owning the libs, saying all those things their teachers and parents and HR taught them not to say. A lot of them routinely and knowingly deal with no-so-legal immigrants on a daily basis, and don’t really care.
Even the true hardcore nativists would probably convince themselves that Trump didn’t betray them, instead they’ll say he was betrayed by the deep state, MAGAINOs, etc.
I give it a less than 50% probability. Still worrisome, of course. But the biggest danger is stuff he’ll do to seek or retain power.
"...I don’t think his average supporters will be all that disappointed if the Great Cleansing turns out to be about a tenth of what he promised..."
Which is ten times better than the alternative, TDS-addled pile of shit.
But the biggest danger is stuff he’ll do to seek or retain power.
Whatever he does will be ok because Democrats did it first.
You endlessly repeat "democrats did it first" - I'm wondering, did you oppose them any of the times they did it first?
That's actually a great question. I hope Sarc answers you seriously and considers what that says about him.
He is very clearly mocking you and your tribe for rationalizing and excusing away everything that Trump does as being okay because "Democrats did it first". It's not defending Democrats, it's mocking you.
Maybe you should ponder that and reflect upon its seriousness.
I’m a mild supporter of trump at best. I’d much rather have a Milei for example, but that isn’t an option. Chase Oliver is even worse than Harris, in my view. You can’t even convince your hanger-on, sarc to vote for Oliver, for christs' sake.
Sarc is above voting.
So, it is NOT a problem when Democrats do something bad...only when Republicans do? Intriguing.
I keep BG on mute because there is absolutely nothing he can say that could possibly interest me, so I’m not going to entertain some inane question.
As jeff said, “Democrats did it first” is not defending anyone. It’s mocking Trump and his defenders by comparing them to toddlers, which they find offensive because it’s true.
BG’s entire schtick is just to generate gotchas. It’s tiresome and boring.
Feel free to (pretend to) hit mute again.
They desperately try to discredit all of us when they’re already completely discredited. I know a Sarc is a retarded drunk with a shrunken, pickled brain, you would think Pedo Jeffy would move on to greener pastures where he already hasn’t been outed as a neo Marxist democrat hack and pedophilia enthusiast.
No you fat faggot, that’s you.
This is also you…..
https://x.com/RhianFazzini/status/1793500361489322162
Where is he on the list?
SHOW US THE LIST!
Pretty sure I made the list, but isn’t there another poster here that is literally “BG”? So who the fuck knows. At least I made jeff's list, temporarily.
The other BG is Berfoyle Guiltram. I constantly confuse you guys, but can you blame me?
Okay, there really is another BG, just not comically a spoonerism as I portrayed above. And I do confuse the two of you.
FOAD, steaming pile of lefty shit.
You seriously think he'll try to retain power ala Maduro or Un or Pooh Bear? How do you see that going down, and why?
Trump will try to do stupid and illegal stuff the same way he tried to do stupid and illegal stuff last time. Last time his appointees prevented him from doing the illegal stuff. The main problem is this time he will only allow known boot lickers on his staff. Maybe they’ll flatter him enough that he won’t realize they are preventing him from doing stupid and illegal things. I worry about him showing off to Putin and Kim Jon by spilling national secrets to them, especially if he becomes more senile over time. He’s not nearly as senile as Biden yet but he definitely has his moments. E.g the time he played music for 30 minutes recently when he was supposed to be taking on friendly questions at a town hall meeting. Yes that was odd…
You know, all he has to do is deport the ones who have committed crimes in the past and, I don’t know, joined a prison gang, or maybe even deport the ones COMMIT CRIMES HERE.
It would be a helluva start, and way too much for Team D to contemplate
Team D is too busy suing states for removing non-citizens from the voter rolls.
I've tried to come up with valid reasons for keeping non-citizens on the voting sheet but we all know the reason.
The democrat party has to be destroyed, it’s a Marxist organization dedicated to ending the constitution and committing treason.
The democrat party has no right to exist.
Nobartium asks :
Is this just an argument against the commentary? If it’s the latter, just make the paywall permanent.
The next four years will be different , but no one will notice when the commentariat is replaced by AI versions of the cast of Mystery Science Theater generating voiceover for an endless loop of replays.
^ When did this AI asshole show up?
I didn’t know AI could be so retarded.
I do wonder if an AI could mimic most of the people in the comments section to a reasonable level of approximation. This would include me, although the ones who comment the most would offer an AI more data from which to create a better approximation.
There are many instances where I can read a comment and guess right a majority of the time who wrote the comment.
I have no problem with the premise of the article -- Trump is far too authoritarian for me. I do think much of the "evidence" given in the article is nonsense.
I'm not sure who the writer is talking about though. More of the writers on Reason are voting for Harris than Trump. What evidence is there that more libertarians are voting for Trump than Harris?
It also seems the responsibility of the editor to ensure that a similar article is written on why Libertarians would support the other major presidential candidate who also has a long history of anti-libertarian thought.
the editor
You're thinking of how an actual paper or media company works.
This is Reason. There are something like 30 editors, all with various titles like Junior/Deputy/Assistant/Directing/Senior Editor, maybe one writer, and we're as likely to get "The Libertarian Case For Kamala Harris" as we are the article you suggest.
Fair point.
"...Trump is far too authoritarian for me..."
So we are advised you are a steaming pile of TDS-addled shit, totally divorced from reality.
Good to know: FOAD, asshole.
Aa lot of prominent libertarians outside of Reason have come out and said they’re voting for Trump, including Dave Smith. Dave’s final straw was Kamala having the Cheney’s campaign for her.
But being anti-war isn’t really important for Reason.
+1
So long as State power is stomping on the right necks, they're actually approving of every last authoritarian abuse by the Left
Just ask libertarian friends and you’ll easily see more are for Trump than Harris. That’s certainly the case for libertarians I know. The only one who seemed nonplussed by that is one who’s been “out of circulation” for a while (long story), and it was easy to convince him Trump was better, though he still found the circumstance bewildering.
The problem is similar to what I saw with Howard Stern for governor of NY: It’s hard for movement libertarians to adjust to candidates who happen to be very libertarian but not out of philosophy. It’s probably no coincidence that I first realized how libertarian Trump was from his statements on Howard Stern’s show 30+ years ago — and Stern's statements about him then too.
It’s hard for movement libertarians to adjust to candidates who happen to be very libertarian but not out of philosophy.
And/or relatively. This has really been an Achille's Heel of Libertarianism in favor of pet-cause Progressivism. If a candidate said "I'm going to end all public schooling and dissolve the DOE because public schools teach that homosexuality is acceptable." and the other candidate said, "I think we need more support for teachers and public schools." or even just "I like school buses." they would prefer the latter because, despite the longstanding libertarian arguments about "Not supporting something is not the condemnation or eradication of that thing.", they would project the first candidate forward as someone who would enact some sort of ban on gay people or brutally oppress them as second class citizens by denying them their right to file taxes jointly.
Or 'PUT THEM IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD!!!!'
Right. Even if the odds are 10,000:1 against him even making a dent in the brainwashing-education-complex alone, they can't support him on the off change that he'll take off his Clark Kent glasses and suddenly become some sort of Superman that's faster than any speeding bullet his political opposition could possibly shoot at him and leap over 100 yrs. of entrenched bureaucracy in a single bound.
He's anit-gay and there's no telling which one of those anti-gay motherfuckers would turn out to be the next Roy Cohn.
I'll come back after reading this, but for now my reaction to the headline is that it's about as peculiar as dropped objects following the law of gravity. Come on, when commenters here have posted their results from sites like isidewith that are supposed to advise people objectively on how they should vote based on their own preferences vis-a-vis recorded statements and other known details about the candidates, and Trump scores so highly with libertarians by this analysis, way ahead of others and beaten only by the explicitly libertarian (and unelectable) LP nominee, how can it be denied?
In no election has Trump had support from less than 46% of the electorate. Even if you think he’s losing, the steady drumbeat of how he doesn’t have conventional eGOP appeal has been deafening.
The idea of “X supporting Donald Trump” as a peculiar phenomenon demonstrates that the writer/speaker is living in (or trying to preserve) a bubble composed entirely of Blue-No-Matter-Who and/or NeverTrump ideologues.
Here is a hint.
The commenters who posted isidewith results along the lines of:
Chase 85%
Trump 80%
are actually Republicans, not libertarians. They are Republicans who disagree with the GOP on maybe one or two issues, which is why they ranked below Chase. But they are still Republicans.
Didn't you even report something like 50% trump, or am I misremembering?
I don't remember my numbers but Oliver didn't even show up for me (I suppose that makes me a nazi or something).
And your last two comments addressed to me are exactly why I had you on ignore for so long. In both comments, you deflected away from the topic and launched into an attack on me. You are clearly just here for the 'gotcha' moments.
He's such a piece of human waste that he makes filth like Jesse look palatable.
He truly is one of the garbage people.
Why would you reference that – Wasn’t Biden referring only to Hinchcliffe, and not everybody else? You know, apostrophe’s and all that. Is that also considered a gotcha?
Which version of Biden’s bullshit does Sarc claim is accurate? Both of them. Simultaneously. Because that is the way of the democrat, simultaneously advocating for two contradictory ideas and/or positions.
I like Garbage!
Hear there new old single?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfyT2i44cUQ
No one gives a shit who you hide from Fatfuck. I know you hide from me like the cowardly little bitch you are. Just like your drunken gimp Sarc.
The only thing we want to see from you is a confession of your NAMBLA related activities.
So LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT – anyone who sides with Chase Oliver 85% is a Republican? Because Chase Oliver is the perfect Libertarian? In that case, it means that Republicans are almost indistinguishable from Libertarians, so the only responsible thing to do is to vote Republican all of the time to save the country from Team D’s illiberalism and anti-Liberty agenda.
Or, if Chase Oliver ISNT the perfect Libertarian, why are you so incensed at people voting for the 80% solution who can win, vs the 85% imperfect Linertarian solution who can’t? Unless you are secretly Team D, of course.
QED
If you are 85% Chase and 80% Trump, then you are not meaningfully different from a standard Republican. Go vote for Trump but stop pretending that you represent libertarianism in any meaningful way.
Being 85% Oliver and then 80% trump indicates there are significant of overlap between the substantive policies of the two, no? Either that or there are serious flaws in the isidewith quiz?
Then try one of the other sites, like Vote Smart. You'll get similar results.
Like I said I got 0% Oliver - I am guessing because I answered the foreign policy questions pretty "hawkishly" which is what pushed my results toward trump.
Answering pro-Israel also skewed my results away from Olliver I'm guessing.
Which would mean standard Republicans are libertarian.
Note Lying Jeffy doesn’t deny being Team D.
85% isn’t meaningful?
85% Chase is a Libertarian apostate and 80% Trump is a standard Republican - do you know how stupid you sound ? (How stupid you are?)
You have logically painted yourself into a corner, and the only explanation for your Trump hatred is that you are in fact a Democrat shill
“stop pretending that you represent libertarianism in any meaningful way”
You first.
This might come as a shock Jeff, but you aren’t the final arbiter of who is and isn’t a fucking libertarian.
I just ran through the 'Isidewith' presidential quiz, and Chase Oliver wasn't even listed as an option. But if you switched to the 'parties' tab, Libertarian and Constitution were tied at the top, whereas 'Democratic' was near the bottom, 4% below 'Socialist', and barely ahead of 'Green'.
Well then, per jeff, you're no different from a standard
nazirepublican.Seeking the perfect to disqualify the good will do little more than insure that your LEAST favorite has a good chance to win.
Assuming that a more libertarian leaning policy is your preference.
Doherty is a steaming pile of TDS-addled shit, ain't he?
FOAD, asshole.
He’s shrill and desperate because his democrat master Harris isn’t doing very well. The serfs aren’t obeying her electoral commands.
Dave Smith responds:
This article should be titled “Let’s attack libertarians for supporting Trump without addressing any of the reasons that libertarians are supporting Trump”
https://x.com/SallyMayweather/status/1853436885017694634
Trump is NOT a libertarian. To be fair, he never claimed he was.
But so many small and big L libertarians flocked to his banner when 90% of his utterances are distinctly anti-libertarian. Why?
I talked with someone who walked precincts for Ron Paul with me. When I mentioned his incivility in mocking the disabled, mocking McCain for being a POW, etc., she just replaid, "Yeah, isn't it great!" WTF?
Half the local libertarian meetup left to go campaign for Trump. They're still there. Why? Thankfully it shed most of the conspiratards from the local LP, but still, why? The LP party activists didn't, and are still active, and are involved in a lawsuit to oust McCardle. Even though I left the party I donated to that suit. How the fuck did an active Trump supporter end up head of the national LP? WTF?
It dawned on my around mid 2020. Yeah, I'm slow at times. But it dawned on me that MOST libertarians are not libertarian at all. They are instead contrarians. They are knee-jerk opposed to anything they perceive as being somehow mainstream, or traditional conservative or traditional liberal, or otherwise normal and ordinary.
This explains so much about the libertarian movement. It explains why it's so infected with cranks and lunatics and conspiracy theorists of all types. It explains why white supremacists donate to some libertarian campaigns, and why they flock to the Mises Institute. It explains the irrational New Hampshire LP. It explains the likes of Dave Smith and Angela McCardle.
And it explains why so many of them flocked to Trump. Because Trump is the ultimate contrarian. Every irrational utterance is met with glee by fauxtarian contrarians. They are literally cheering on bigger government, so long as it's a contrarian government that rankles those they don't like.
But so many small and big L libertarians flocked to his banner when 90% of his utterances are distinctly anti-libertarian. Why?
Hatred for Democrats. If you don’t support Trump because of hatred for Democrats then you support Democrats.
Yeah, I’m slow at times. But it dawned on me that MOST libertarians are not libertarian at all. They are instead contrarians. They are knee-jerk opposed to anything they perceive as being somehow mainstream, or traditional conservative or traditional liberal, or otherwise normal and ordinary.
Yeah, no. I think that most libertarians are contrarian when it comes to government and power. But not in general.
And it explains why so many of them flocked to Trump. Because Trump is the ultimate contrarian.
Trump is a religious movement. He's the anti-politician. He's the outsider messiah who will bring balance to the force. He gets away with being a populist even though he's completely out of touch with average people, because he's not one of them.
Can’t argue against any of that. Well said
This from an asshole claiming to be "Libertarian", so long as it has nothing to do with policies or views, just cap L names.
Does it explain TDS-addled ignorant piles of shit like you?
No one buys your bullshit
They are literally cheering on bigger government, so long as it’s a contrarian government that rankles those they don’t like.
And by opposing them you're being a cranky contrarian supporting a government that rankles deplorables and bitter clingers too! OMG! Trump is beating you and people like you at your own 12-D chess without even trying!
"But so many small and big L libertarians flocked to his banner when 90% of his utterances are distinctly anti-libertarian. Why?"
Because the democrats are 100% totalitarian.
And, oh by the way, please show the math for the 90% number. Include all of his actions when in office.
They’re supporting Trump because the alternative is a retarded neo Marxist who is utterly incompetent and being puppeteered by neo con war hawks and far left globalist nuts that want to have state control over the murder/mutilation/rape of their children. Plus the economy is terrible and four years of that cackling cunt will finish off any remaining prosperity outside of the anointed few who are party elites.
Thats why.
That just sounds so deranged. It sounds like TDS just turned upside down.
Voting for or promoting Libertarian Party candidate Chase Oliver is an option as well.
The "Libertarian" who outright advocated state-funded sex change operations for prison inmates? (And for the "He said it's between a patient and doctor and doesn't want the state involved" jokers, he advocated the government still pay for it.)
Back in the days of the English Only movement (of which I’d bet some people here are veterans….) they used to float an idea that we could cut taxes and reduce the deficit if only we didn’t spend all our money on ink putting Spanish on the ballots.
Now you come along with this. Should a libertarian be against, just on principle, the government paying for elective surgery? Definitely, they shouldn’t pay for this. Although I’d add that the prisoner has a less-bad case then most people, because he can’t just go get it on his own.
But if you’re against the government wasting money, this is not even on the top 500 list of wasteful government spending programs, ranked by amount spent. So we know that’s not your real issue.
If you’re in the taxation-is-theft camp, the theft occurs when the money is taken, how it’s spent doesn’t make it legitimate again. So that’s not your real issue either.
I think it’s just that you really dislike prisoners and trannies, and that’s more important to you than all the rest of libertarianism put together. You’ll support the government taking thousands of people’s land via eminent domain for some stupid wall, using your tax money to pay for it; you’ll support 100% or even 1000% percent taxes on stuff people want to buy; you’ll support shutting down any stations that overly praise Harris or overly criticize Trump….all just because you can’t stand that something on the order of one-millionth of the federal budget might go into a surgery you find disgusting.
I find it (the surgery) kind of an eye-roller too. But I realize it’s a gnat in Oliver’s eye while Trump’s got the Golden Gate Bridge shoved through his eye.
Which is all fine, but you’re no libertarian and in no position to lecture us about what is. You’re just a social conservative, and yes, Trump’s probably the best option you, even though culturally he’s really sort of cosmopolitan. He just yanks chains you want to see yanked.
“they used to float an idea that we could cut taxes and reduce the deficit if only we didn’t spend all our money on ink putting Spanish on the ballots.”
Totally believable Dee.
Of the two main candidates, one is a frightening authoritarian and the other has vowed to free Ross Ulbricht.
One is an authoritarian, and the other is an authoritarian who fools people like you into thinking he's not.
Hint: Trump could have freed Ross Ulbricht at any time in his first term. Why didn't he? Do you think he really give a shit about Ulbricht or any of the issues surrounding the Silk Road case?
Authoritarian #1: "I am running a campaign of joy and to bring all Americans together."
Commenters: "That's a bunch of bullshit! She's lying!"
Authoritarian #2: "I will free Ross Ulbricht (let's ignore for the moment that I didn't free him when I had the chance) and I will not start any new wars (let's ignore for the fact that I didn't withdraw from Afghanistan when I had the chance)..."
Commenter: "He's so dreamy! We can believe everything he says!"
Look at Trump's record, not his words! I mean look at his words, not his record! I mean look at his... Look over there! A Democrat! Get them!
Jeff, do you enjoy having an idiot like sarc hanging on your posts?
BG, do you enjoy being a garbage person?
Oh darn, you really got me...
Stop putting down Garbage. They're a great band.
Pedo Jeffy, do you enjoy being a morbidly obese Marxist pedophile who is too pathetic to admit what he really is?
Of course, you’re too gutless to dare answer me.
One plans to tax unrealized capital gains. One plans to lower capital gains tax.
one plans to put price controls on groceries. One does not.
One has directly threatened free speech on social media numerous times, and claimed it's a bad thing that people can say whatever they want "without oversight and with no regulation!" The other has literally put the owner of the primary free speech platform as a planned member of his cabinet.
These two are not the same and your inane attempts to make them so are frankly embarfassing for you.
Can’t be embarrassed when you’re a shameless lying psychopath.
One has spoken openly about coming into people's homes to inspect their guns and verify they are being stored properly. Which one?
One candidate has said they will never, ever allow a CBDC to happen. The other's administration appointed Larry Gensler. Can you guess which one? They are so similar! it's so hard to tell which one is authoritarian and which one isnt!
He didn’t know who Ross Ulbricht was until Vivek told him about him.
One candidate has spoken openly of using executive orders to force "mandatory buybacks" of assault weapons. One candidate issued a bumpstock ban while in office.
Both are bad, and yet one is less libertarian than the other.
one candidate has vowed to eliminate the Dept of Education on day 1. The other has the endorsement of the National Teacher's Association union. Can you guess which candidate is which?
One candidate expressed display over the Supreme Court's decision to overturn the Chevron Defense. This is probably the greatest blow for liberty by the court in a decade.
The other candidate has praised the decision.
Put on your thinking cap, and think REAL hard, and try to guess which one is which.
"expressed dismay"
One candidate's administration has borrowed $200B from the future and sent it to the most corrupt government in Europe to fund one side of a horrific war of attrition, a war that involved no allies of the US.
The other candidate has vowed to stop sending money to that war on day 1. Which is the more libertarian stance would you say?
One candidate wants to increase corporate tax rates from 21% (already way too high) to 35%.
one candidate wants to reduce the current 21% even further.
Which is the more libertarian approach to corporate tax rates? Raising or lowering?
Funny, your overlord Kamala won’t pardon him at all.
Poor lying pedo enabler, nobody believes you but the drunk homeless guy you pay to suck you off.
Out of contrition, solidarity, or baseless pandering to a party that he doesn't expect to get even 5% of the vote.
What makes it displease him?
When they censor. When they provide unequal enforcement of their T.O.S.. When they violat5e their agreement to be a platform, not a publisher.
<blockquotedesires legal immunity from accountability for himself and all government law enforcement;
Legal immunity from what? From lawfare. From being charged for doing their jobs as described in their job description.
Wow. Just say 'deporting illegal aliens' living with stolen ID and stolen lives.
Stolen lives.
Trump Rule #1: Trump always gets the benefit of the doubt. Always. Everything he says is to be construed in the best possible light, except when it is too horrible to do so, in which case, what Trump says is to be dismissed as a joke or ignored completely and anyone bringing it up ever again has TDS.
Trump Rule #2: Trump was the most libertarian president in 100 years, except for all of the exceptions, which were totally not his fault. It was Congress' fault, it was the Deep State's fault, it was Democrats' fault, it was Blue State Governors' fault, it was China's fault, it was the illegals' fault, etc.
Trump Rule #3: Trump has the most libertarian friendly position on every issue, except when he doesn't, in which case Trump's position is still better than the Democrats', except when it's not, in which case Trump's position is really not his real position, his REAL position is the libertarian one. Therefore, Trump is the clear libertarian choice on every issue. QED.
Trump has the most libertarian friendly position on every issue
Compared to Harris, yes. This is absolutely true. I suppose you could argue that his total adoption of Bill Clinton's illegal immigrant policy is less libertarian than Harris's approach of arms-wide-open-no-quesionts-asked-and-here's-free-money policy. I can see either way being argued as more libertarian.
Other than that pathetic controversy, yes. Trump is more libertarian on literally every stance Harris holds.
Not just free money when they get here, actually using tax money to fly them here.
But open borders is a sacrament to Lying Jeffy, so details like that don’t matter.
Yes, this is the main reason I'd argue her policy is actually LESS libertarian than just closing the border and sending all these people home. her administration is forcing me to pay to airlift tons of people into small towns that dont want them, and then forcing me to pay for their living expenses. It's outrageous on every level ESPECIALLY a libertarian one.
I don't make the claim that Trump is the "most libertarian" president in the last 100 years, because Trump isn't a libertarian. He's by far the lesser of two evils of who will actually win the presidency, though.
I can see why some call him the most libertarian president (of the last 100 years), as he had/has a few libertarian principles, but that still doesn't make him a libertarian, in my opinion.
Out of curiosity, though, since you don't believe the claim is true, what president since Coolidge would you say was the most libertarian, chemjeff?
He's gonna say Obama isnt he? lolololol
To be fair, it’s a really really low bar to pass.
#2) You're correct. Coolidge was more libertarian and he was President 100 years ago.
So, since him, there is not a really viable person who would qualify as more libertarian.
But Trump, through the insult comedy and random ravings, is consistently a man of authoritarian temperament: He craves using government power to punish media that displeases him (including threatening broadcast licenses); desires legal immunity from accountability for himself and all government law enforcement; and most significantly, his prime campaign action point is launching an unprecedented in this century police/military action against millions of people living peacefully and productively in America.
I don't get it, Doherty. If you do the exact same thing and worse while waving rainbow LGBTQI2MAP+ flags, talking about "our democracy", and railing about "disinformation", is that brand of authoritarianism in your world completely forgiven, or even strategically and reluctantly voted for?
is that brand of authoritarianism in your world completely forgiven
Show us all where Doherty was forgiving Team Blue authoritarianism here.
Your impotent rage is making me happy, Lying Jeffy.
Nothing for him to forgive. As Doherty never had much of a problem with it to begin with. Because like you, he’s a pawn.
Pawns don’t have values. They have marching orders.
I don’t see his raging screed against Harris anywhere, do you lying Jeffy?
And further, if you actually do those things instead of blustering about them, what are the criticisms journolismingists might be able to muster?
Is there a 1500 word thinkpiece in the can titled “The Peculiar Phenomenon of Beltway Libertarians Supporting Kamala Harris”?
Hell, even some of our most vociferous Trump haters aligned with Trump 57% to 45%… a 12 point difference that’s basically 50/50.
Oh, but let's not forget the totally-not-Trump-cultist "libertarians" who align with Trump 80%.
I have always said that Trump's policies are overall better than Harris' policies. But Trump will never get my vote because he is not only an authoritarian, but also a disgusting human being, a shameless demagogue, an unthinking moron who is motivated primarily by ego, and a man so lacking in all essential leadership characteristics that he instigated a months-long campaign to undermine the peaceful transition of power culminating in the Jan. 6 riots. Funny how none of that was mentioned on the isidewith quiz.
You on the other hand ignore or rationalize away his serious faults so that you can get a tax cut and so that you can 'pwn the libs'.
How do the behaviors that make Trump a disgusting human being compare with keeping inmates in custody after their release date to do slave labor for the state, Lying Jeffy?
Did Trump literally sleep his way into politics as the side-hoe of the local party boss? Is this NOT disgusting behaviour?
For the record i'd vote for that sleazy hoe who used sex to advance her career and made of mockery of all the 'feminists' who think she is a girl power figure, if her policies were better.
but also a disgusting human being, a shameless demagogue, an unthinking moron who is motivated primarily by ego,
Again, ladies, your vote is not a valentine. This isnt an episode of the Bachelor.
You literally said that you believe trump's policies are better but he gives you the ick and that's the deciding factor.
Unbelievably middle-school-brained loser approach to exercising your franchise. Sad. many such cases unfortunately.
^THIS^
Libertarians who align with Chase Oliver and Donald Trump, but not Kamala Harris.
How many more brain cells do you need to figure out that one of these things is not like the other?
Poor, stupid jeffsarc, someone that makes even Kamala look half-way intelligent.
Correction, Jeff. They won’t even get a tax cut. Any tiny decrease in the income tax rate will be more than offset by increased tariffs, which they’ll be paying but won’t even realize.
Prediction: When prices go up, they’ll deny it’s inflation. They’ll deny it’s tariffs. Instead, they’ll send out J.D.Vance to do his spiel about corporate greed and the working class being exploited. And the self-labeled Trump libertarians will play along.
Vance has nice things to say about Lina Khan. On economics and free markets the man is better than Lizzie Warren but still to the left of many Democrats.
If you take inflation as being a general increase in price (I have serious issues with this, but I understand that's how economists think about it), how do targeted tariffs do that?
Not even subtle projection Dee.
Poor Mike. Costs spent supporting all your illegals is almost double the estimates of tariffs.
Cope and seethe harder Jeff.
If he does win, I will know who to blame for every fucked up thing that he does, and that will be you.
There it is.
Thanks for proving yet again that you’re just a standard collectivist.
...
OK, but then don't pretend you'll ever cast a meaningful vote. There hasn't been this stark a choice between the major parties in at least 40 years, and quite possibly a century. Casting a pox equally on both houses is like grousing that people should never be given a say in their own government.
No individual vote is meaningful except to the person casting it.
To be effective, one must take some action other than showing up and voting. Even a well-written letter to a representative will have more meaning than standing in line for an hour to cast your vote for or against said representative. Week after week, on this blog, we see examples of government over-reach, malfeasance, corruption, and foolishness that could and should have been vigorously protested by libertarian voices in those communities but weren't. So let's start raising our voices, individually or organizationally, instead of meekly believing that our one vote is going to matter to the goons and idiots that serve as our "representatives."
This 100%. Voting is an abdication of citizenship to someone else not an act of citizenship.
Aristotle defined citizenship as someone who has the right to participate in decisions of the polity. He viewed the polity (in a rule by the many sense) as a partnership and that sort of polity would REQUIRE participation by the many. He did not distinguish jury duty or 'assembly duty'.
'Consent of the governed' is a much later notion and basically is intended for a world where those who consent are the GOVERNED not the officials of governance.
"...Being sincerely alarmed about Trump makes you the yokel—a deluded victim of Trump Derangement Syndrome..."
Exactly backwards. Being a TDS-addled pile of shit makes you "sincerely alarmed" about the most libertarian POTUS we've had in the last century, asshole.
The "would-be authoritarian" who cut taxes and De-Regulated?
I'm still writing in Ron Paul as usual, but Trump is clearly the lesser of the two evils. Kamala has attempted to murder a man by suppressing the DNA evidence that sprung him from death row, for fuck's sake.
If she wins, it's time to call the Article V convention and seriously lock down what the federal government is allowed to do.
-jcr
I’m still writing in Ron Paul as usual, but Trump is clearly the lesser of the two evils.
+1
Kamala has attempted to murder a man by suppressing the DNA evidence that sprung him from death row, for fuck’s sake.
I don't even generally support Reason's opposition to the death penalty or their "[Expert] science is junk science." narrative, and that's fucked up.
We had a judgeship on the ballot that the only two people running had been appointed by Whitmer, so Ron Paul got a vote for judge in Michigan.
Both are terrible candidates, but Kamala Harris is a particularly horrendous candidate. Neither received my vote, but push come to shove, I would vastly prefer Donald Trump (along with all the TDS chaos) over Kamala Harris and the sycophantic media. It's not support of Trump, but rather opposition to Harris.
Trump is an accomplished entertainer and the ensuing chaos should make for quite a show.
"but rather opposition to Harris."
Careful what you wish for. A Harris defeat could trigger a purge of the Democrat old guard and a take over of the party by the militant tendency - true believers with a desire to pay more than lip service to radical change.
They are in charge NOW.
Why do you think they "left" Joe Biden in "charge"? He is not competent. Has not been for most of his term. Too incompetent to run but competent enough to remain as President?
Why do you think Kamala, on election eve, STILL has no actual plan for policies? It is because she is not the one who will be ruling.
We have been living with those lunatics running the show. We have seen enough.
"They are in charge NOW."
The old guard - the ones who made sure Bernie Sanders was sidelined - are in charge now. The same ones the Cheneys are comfortable supporting. If you think Cheney represents the militant tendency, you need to broaden your sources of information.
"Why do you think they “left” Joe Biden in “charge”? He is not competent. "
Incompetence is no barrier to the presidency.
"Too incompetent to run but competent enough to remain as President?"
Campaigning for president is a lot more demanding than holding the office. There's a lot of traveling, meeting people, and constant attention from the press and pundits. Presidents take vacations. Those running for president never do.
"Why do you think Kamala, on election eve, STILL has no actual plan for policies? "
She doesn't need them. Harris is not Trump. That's her greatest strength.
"We have seen enough."
If that were true, we'd have a different set of candidates to choose from.
Careful what you wish for. A Harris defeat could trigger a purge of the Democrat old guard and a take over of the party by the militant tendency – true believers with a desire to pay more than lip service to radical change.
Those fat, blue-haired shriekers? Well, if they really want to commit suicide-by-stupidity.
"they really want to commit suicide-by-stupidity"
Even worse. They want radical change.
Those fat, blue-haired shriekers?
These are typically also Hamas supporters, so trueman’s natural allies.
"The Peculiar Phenomenon of Libertarians Supporting Donald Trump
Libertarians owe nothing to would-be authoritarians."
Doherty wants only leftist authoritarians, like Kamala.
Get with the program, fellow libertarians, or face the rath of a closet democrat.
Nikki Haley 2024Chase Oliver 2024Anybody but Trump 2024.
So war, child mutilation and insanity are your top 3 picks. That checks out.
I would like to rewind to a time when Libertarians strategically and reluctantly bent at the waist for Hillary Clinton.
"The Peculiar Phenomenon of Libertarians Supporting Donald Trump"
It's a little peculiar, but not very significant. Maybe 1% of the electorate vote Libertarian, not enough to influence the outcome of an election. More peculiar and more significant is the phenomenon of uneducated white males supporting Trump, and Trump's targeting this group while ignoring the rest of the electorate. "I love the uneducated" was what Trump told us, an admirable sentiment worthy of Jesus Christ. But pandering exclusively to this group is no way to win an election, let alone unite the nation.
mNaziman loves to spew lies and hate. Isn't it about time for your MAPedo meeting with Jeffy and buttplug?
If you're not an uneducated white male, we'll make you an honorary member. You've earned it.
You're an uneducated white male? Why would I want to be a member of any club that you're a part of? Fuck off Nazi pedo.
"Why would I want to be a member of any club that you’re a part of?"
That's not for me to answer.
There is a direct pipeline from the paleo crowd to the alt-right that showed up in Charlottesville. The Reason crowd may not like those folks showing up at 'their' libertarian cocktail parties but they are both 'libertarian'. And that obsession is why the main slew of articles here at Reason during Charlottesville here were about Reason trying to define the properly Scottish form of 'libertarianism' in order to pretend that that paleo-altright pipeline isn't really libertarian.
Course, it's funny as fuck that Reason is now saying Libertarians should have the courage of their claimed convictions to radically oppose the U.S. government status quo. Reason is nothing but the 'journalistic' outlet for the donor class. Whenever Reason is 'courageous' against what govt is doing, it is only ever in service to what the donor class 'intended' their donations to pols to accomplish. Which is also libertarian.
MAGAts are maggots and vice versa.
"There is a direct pipeline from the paleo crowd to the alt-right that showed up in Charlottesville."
The Left has a new Charlottesville every fucking week with their pro-Hamas idiocy.
Enough with that bullshit.
You are anti-semitic the nanosecond you march around on campus chanting 'Jews will not replace us' in support of your replacement theory and anti-globalism and 'anti-cosmopolitan' shit. You remain anti-semitic even if, while doing that, you are carrying the Israeli flag rather than tiki torches or Nazi flags. You remain anti-semitic even if someone else marches around chanting something else. You become even MORE anti-semitic when you invoke a dual loyalty trope to equate Zionism or Israel with Judaism or Jews.
Not to pimp isidewith again, but it's not all that "peculiar" when you get 85% agrees with Chase Oliver and 80% agrees with Donald Trump.
Especially given that Trump is the bigger "fuck you" vote against the establishment elite.
"Voting for or promoting Libertarian Party candidate Chase Oliver is an option as well."
To paraphrase your colleague Liz Wolf: Where the hell is he? Because this is the quietest campaign I've ever seen from a Libertarian candidate for President. If you had told me he dropped out a month ago, I would've suggested "I wasn't even aware he was campaigning in the first place."
Granted a quiet campaign is probably better that what I saw from Jo Jorgensen the last time. But the point is your exasperation with Libertarians for Donald Trump when the LP candidate is no where to be seen and the Democratic candidate is being back by the Cheneys and Bill Kristol, seems a little misguided to me. But all well.
" Where the hell is he? "
More relevant: Show me the money! The two main candidates are spending $US16,000,000,000 between them for this election. I don't know about Chase, but I remember reading that another third party hopeful, Cornel West, had to suspend campaigning due in part to a $US17,000 debt.
Chase was invited on TimcastIRL, which has millions of listeners, but declined because he was afraid Jeremy Kaufman would be mean to him. He’s also been invited on Part of the Problem, but he declined because he was afraid of Dave Smith being mean to him.
That would have cost him zero dollars.
For 16 billion, he could have bought his own podcast and hired Tim, Jeremy and Dave to shill for him.
If frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their ass on the ground. What’s that got to do with Chase running a campaign like Biden in 2020, only without the establishment media covering for him?
When you are giving billions to the establishment media for their airtime, you can be sure they will cover you. Even if you never leave your basement.
Trump is refreshingly libertarian relative to Biden, Harris, Obama, W Bush, Clinton.
Free movement of people, goods and ideas.
You're going to put them on trains to "Work Free" camps?
Fuck off Nazi pedo.
Libertarianism isn't for everyone. There's no shame in rejecting it.
Rejecting the bullshit posed by trueman should be for everyone.
FOAD, asshole.
Yep. No one who really supports Libertarianism would support Harris, by a factor of 10x.
What a pile of drivel for a simple thing:
- Trump - Overwhelmingly more freedoms;
- Harris - Negative on almost any freedom;
- Protest vote - fine if you aren't in a swing state.
EVERY Libertarian should Trump, you complete buffoon.
The real negative freedoms for the Trump's administration's are: 1) tariffs ... whatever, and 2) abortion (Trump admin doesn't care, but the party might push some).
Then factor in the political-social inertia that needs stalling: forcing pronouns, gun control and every other ridiculous social force. Only a complete, and absolute idiot would support Harris.
"But Harris—especially given that she would almost certainly be constrained by Republicans in either or both the Senate and House...."
I hope that turns out to be true, but there is a real possibility that the Democrats take the presidency, house, and senate, and then do away with the filibuster to pass anything they want.
And even if they don't win the senate now, the seats up in 2026 and 2028 are in their favor.
I do hope I am wrong about this!
"His appeal to some who use the libertarian label is perplexing, then—except in that he's not Vice President Kamala Harris."
If you are a libertarian who believes that the Presidency is so important that you have to hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils, then you might choose Trump because he proved in his four years in the White House to be almost totally incompetent and inept, failing to achieve any of his promises except the trade war with China. If I get to choose a President who will fail to be able to use the awesome power of government to achieve any of the things I fear, why shouldn't I do that?
Trump promised to build the wall and was partly successful. Trump promised to reduce the corporate tax rate, and he did from 35% to 21% (btw, This was the most important Fed govt action in 40 years!), he promised to stand up to 'little rocket-man' and he did shut him up, he promised to re-do NAFTA and he did (OK, useless, but promise fulfilled), he promised to reduce unemployment and he did, particularly among black men, etc.
^+1
Beltway @libertarian pundits often employ the Goebbelsian technique of repeating a lie until it is believed.
In this case that illegal immigrants are just peaceful people who exercise their right to freedom of movement.
Every illegal alien who puts a kid in public schools so he or she can have free day care to go take an American job is enslaving an American to produce $10,000 - $30,000 in tax payments.
(I'll leave aside the tens of thousands of illegal alien criminals, some of whom are now raping and killing around the country.)
Illegal immigrants also do many offensive things our Democrat welfare states coddles and protects.
In northern Virginia schools in Democrat run counties, Latin immigrants call each other and their black friends the N word constantly. They also call black teachers they try to treat as peers the N word.
No one tells them to stop.
I was at a high school for 6 months where this was a daily spectacle.
At another, less immigrant populated school, a black assistant principal and I were discussing some boys using the N word. I told her about my recent experience and she told me the schools can't punish the Latin kids for using the N word.
Because if they did it would be "discriminatory," with the school mainly punishing one ethnic group.
Good thing it's just the N word and not sexual assault!
So when an alleged libertarian tells you that your kid being forced to go to a choatic school where resources are stretched thin and people are using the N word is just peaceful people exercising their freedom, tell him to shove it up his ass.
The solution is simple - if you consider yourself a libertarian and don’t really like Harris but are voting for her anyway, exercise your right to protest and don’t vote! You are not obligated to vote for someone you don’t really believe in, you know.
>libertarian world's anarchist end
Don't feel bad, explosive diarrhea isn't that uncommon, and in terms of rhetoric it's the default mode for 'reason.'
Sure, don't vote for Trump; at least lubbertarians will be Pure (in their own minds) as the U.S. goes down the receptacle for explosive diarrhea. Do you exchange crib notes with National Review, or just copy their articles from 2016?
There's really nothing "Peculiar" about it - Trump might be problematic in some ways, but that doesn't hold a candle to how bad Kamala is - from her historic support of everything far left progressive, authoritarian and socialist; to her current 'can't explain a single fucking position' stance - not to mention exactly how fucking dumb she is (only the perennially stupid cover up dodges and weaves with incoherent statements) - Libertarians, who don't otherwise have a stick up their ass against secure borders or even basic law and order, will vote for Trump, because as much as they 'd like to see a Libertarian in office, they sure as shit don't want to see four more years of this Biden-Harris shit on steroids.
Here's the harsh reality, broken down by category:
The liberals have gone insane. No if's and's or's but's; no rationalizations, justifications, or excuses. They have gone batshit insane. There is not ONE SINGLE policy they advance that isn't completely psychotic and self-destructive.
The libertarians - if this site is any indication - no longer know what they stand for (if they ever did). They're one part anarchy, two parts hedonism, three parts reflexive outrage - and none of it is tempered anymore by any kind of moral/ethical compass at all. They're like young teenagers whose parents left them one night and never came back. I'm talking Lord of the Flies territory here.
The conservatives are effectively dead at the federal level. They have no representation, and even when they arguably get some it's completely impotent against the status quo now. Most have given in to apathy because they know they're just along for the ride until its inevitable end.
Partisan populist tribalism has taken over - but none of them have any social/political/moral grounding beyond some vague soundbyte/tweet-friendly version of what they think America is "supposed" to be. Most of MAGA revere Trump as a walking god because they're so desperate for a champion that they'll embrace pretty much anyone who sticks it to the opposition; and almost all the Left, terrified at the thought of losing power, will blindly side with someone they know with absolute certainty - even if they won't admit it out loud - is a straight up, no-BS, undeniable gibbering retard who plainly doesn't have the first clue what they're doing to the point that every single word, act, and emotion has to be 100% scripted. They both want to "fix" America, but it's really just two super annoying cliques with two insufferable would-be prom queens.
Religion has more or less checked out. Christians aren't showing up to vote by the tens of millions (because they can't reconcile their consciences with these candidates). Jews don't trust either side now that the Left is openly calling for their genocide. Muslims do what they're told in order to undermine and destroy America, but don't actually care so long as The Great Satan falls like the twin towers.
And everybody else is enjoying their bread and circuses. They don't care, they're completely oblivious to anything that's going on, they couldn't even tell you the most basic information about government or current events, and they just want everyone else to shut up because it's interrupting their Netflix and Doordash.
THAT'S the State of the Nation. And nothing about tomorrow is going to change any of it. Every election is "the most important one in our lifetime" - but the truth is it's all just a race to the bottom. And folks so desperately want to win it, and don't think twice about what the "prize" is at the end.
I know people these days - especially around here - don't want to hear it, but this is what you get in a Godless society. The Founders knew it and they warned us about it over and over and over. And if you want to get right down to it, the Bible has been warning us of the same since Moses freed the Israelites. A free society - of the people and by the people - does not work without a good people. And a people cannot be a good people absent God - who is the definition of Good, True, Right, and Beautiful.
It's funny, I doubt many of you went to Church this weekend, but it just so happens that this was this week's Gospel:
One of the scribes came up and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
-Mark 12:28-30.
(Sidenote: even most Christians forget that this Commandment takes priority over the second Commandment Jesus issued, which the protestants have long since bastardized as, effectively: "Just kinda be generally nice to each other.")
We're a lost and rudderless society, adrift in a sea of identity politics, social justice, misplaced righteousness, and even more misplaced anger and fear. We don't want self-governance, we want benevolent dictatorship. We don't want liberty, we want control. We don't want order, we want whatever our impulsive whims desire.
We don't want God. We want to pretend we are God.
And nothing about tomorrow is going to make even the slightest bit of difference, because that social/political/moral failing we've allowed to take root in just a few short centuries will not be fixed by electing the "correct" leaders. We will not have Kamala's "joy", we will not have Donald's "greatness", we will not have Chase's "liberty".
Not until we remember that those are all words synonymous with God.
I’m talking Lord of the Flies territory here.
Sheesh, calm the fuck down.
Go spew somewhere else, please?
I’m not wrong. Libertarianism is no longer the party of small, restrained government and self-sufficient individualism with respect for individual rights.
Now it’s all just unlimited and unrestricted whoring, drugs, trafficking of both, crime, and destruction – with no cops to be found and no accountability for anyone. But don’t worry, there’s still plenty of government – which they full-throat support – to provide for public housing, free abortions, climate change quackery, LGBT Pedo indoctrination, bowing down to China.
I’m not wrong.
Yes, you are wrong.
Crypto-conservatives don’t get to define what big or small “L” libertarianism is. Go promote your sword-wielding Jesus fantasies on the The Federalist, or The Bulwark, or whatever astro-turf thing Glenn Beck is shilling these days.
No, I’m not wrong.
I’m not the one defining Libertarianism. Libertarianism has a definition. I told you it. This party of stoned degenerate pedophile anti-capitalist ACAB sluts cowering in fear of an angry sun god and ignoring the cognitive dissonance of happily embracing Big Gov when it suits their goals/narratives while screaming anarchy every other day, wearing the party’s name like a skinsuit, is not it.
You must have dozed off, because Mark continues:
"The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
I repeat: (Sidenote: even most Christians forget that this Commandment takes priority over the second Commandment Jesus issued, which the protestants have long since bastardized as, effectively: “Just kinda be generally nice to each other.”)
This article doesn't seem to take into account a happening from just this weekend: RON PAUL was invited to TRUMP'S transition-team, and Dr. Paul accepted! (If you don't believe me, check their official X-accounts!) A VOTE FOR TRUMP = A VOTE FOR RON PAUL!
I know a couple of blue pilled libertarians at this point and they have long seen Ron Paul as the problem with libertarianism, instead of a standard bearer of libertarianism. My guess is Reason is chock full of much the same type of people.
He spoke the truth and they hated him for it.
Triggering MAGAts is incredibly easy. Just talk about reality.
Triggering TDS-addled shits is far easier; post something true.
FOAD, steaming pile of TDS-addled shit, and we are happy to see your tears, asshole.
292 on his way to 312 - how's that for reality?!
If Trump had done ANY of these things in his first term you MIGHT have a point - but, seriously - nope!
There are more than one kind of libertarian.
Claiming "libertarian" for one's particular ideology is not much persuasive.
I observe Trump's first four years to be that of the most libertarian president of my lifetime.
Mostly because of eliminating regulations and support of free speech. Supporting liberty.
D's have been way down on free speech of late, to me, that's not libertarian.
But I get it, there are flavors of "libertarian" who aren't much like me.