Montana's Porn Age Verification Law Is Headed to Court
"Invoking the innocence of children is not...a magic incantation sufficient for legislatures to run roughshod over the First Amendment rights of adults."

It seems that a puritanical wave is sweeping the country as state governments increasingly try to make it more difficult to access pornography from within their borders. A lawsuit is challenging one of those laws, and this week, a federal judge allowed it to continue.
Montana is one of multiple states in recent years to pass a law requiring pornographic websites to verify users' ages. Under Senate Bill 544, any website that "knowingly and intentionally publishes or distributes material harmful to minors" must "perform reasonable age verification methods to verify the age of individuals attempting to access the material," so long as the site in question "contains a substantial portion of the material."
The statute defines "material harmful to minors" as, essentially, the depiction of any sexual acts, covering everything from straightforward pornography all the way up to and including "bestiality." It further notes that "reasonable age verification methods" can take the form of "a digitized identification card" or some other system that either checks a user's "government-issued identification" or otherwise "relies on public or private transactional data."
While perhaps well-intended, the law is a civil liberties nightmare: First of all, as a general rule, pornography is free speech protected by the First Amendment. And as Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote in the April 2024 issue of Reason, the sort of age verification law that some states now favor "creates a record, permanently attaching real identities to online activity that many people would prefer stay private," and "even the best verification methods would leave people vulnerable to hackers and snoops."
The law also stipulates that it applies when the material in question constitutes "more than 33 1/3% of total material on a website," meaning a site could be forced to enact an onerous age-verification scheme even if well over half of its hosted content does not meet the state's definition of disallowed material. One imagines that porn sites could simply load up their servers with enough inoffensive content to stay on the right side of that ratio, but instead, sites like Pornhub have simply blocked access in Montana, as they have in many other states that have passed these laws.
In May 2024, a group of organizations and individuals led by the Free Speech Coalition filed a federal lawsuit seeking an injunction against the enforcement of the law. Per the lawsuit, S.B. 544 "operates as a presumptively-unconstitutional prior restraint on speech" since it requires "the use of some particularized approval method as a condition to providing protected expression."
The plaintiffs further alleged that the law violates the 14th Amendment, "as it impinges upon liberty and privacy interests in one's own private sexual conduct….Age-verification over the internet, in the manner contemplated by the Act, invites the risk, real or reasonably perceived, that the viewer's digital 'fingerprint' will be left on the site….It's a striking invasion of privacy at a time and place when a person legitimately expects it most. No governmental interest exists sufficient to justify this intrusion."
In June, Montana Attorney General Austin Knudsen filed a motion to dismiss. Knudsen writes in his brief that "the First Amendment doesn't protect content that is obscene for minors."
"The Supreme Court has recognized time and again that state legislatures may pass laws that protect minors from material that is 'obscene as to youths,'" Knudsen continued, and S.B. 544 "doesn't prevent adults from accessing age-restricted material they have a right to access—it requires only that commercial entities employ reasonable methods to verify that their customers are of age."
"Invoking the innocence of children is not, and cannot be, a magic incantation sufficient for legislatures to run roughshod over the First Amendment rights of adults," the plaintiffs shot back in a reply brief. "States may, of course, 'pass laws that protect minors from material that is "obscene as to youths"'….But efforts to do so must not disregard the rights of adults who are ensnared in the net not intended for them."
In a decision issued Tuesday, Judge Donald Molloy of the U.S. District Court for the District of Montana Missoula Division denied Knudsen's motion, siding with the plaintiffs in the majority of their arguments and allowing the lawsuit to proceed.
Regarding whether the state's obligation to protect children from obscenity bypasses the plaintiffs' First Amendment rights, "plaintiffs have the better argument," Molloy wrote. The government has the "ability to restrict the dissemination of materials that would be obscene" from minors, he found, "but even those regulations cannot impede an adult's ability to see the same material without triggering heightened scrutiny so long as the material retains some First Amendment protection." He then quotes from U.S. Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, who wrote in 1983's Bolger v. Youngs Drug Products Corp. that "the government may not 'reduce the adult population…to reading only what is fit for children.'"
Molloy also found plaintiffs' argument about the 14th Amendment compelling. "Plaintiffs have identified the private sexual conduct of consenting adults as the interest at issue," he wrote. "Contrary to the State's attempt to muddle the issue, Plaintiffs have not asserted that minors have this same liberty interest or that adults have an interest in gaining access to such materials for minors. As argued by Plaintiffs, the State's 'argument betrays the deeply mistaken belief that any regulation "concerned with minors" is somehow immune from judicial scrutiny for the burden it places on adults.' Not so."
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There is stiff resistance to this law?
Can’t they just butt out?
How about you just have to upload your carry permit?
No constitutional issues getting one of those is there?
Might as well issue speech permits as well.
Tampon Tim agrees. Permits will be denied for those pushing DiSiNfOrMaTiOn.
Harder to exercise your 2nd amendment rights than it is to vote after dying.
It's harder to get a fishing license in some states than it is to vote while dead.
It's not puritanical. The only opposition anyone could have to this is based exclusively on, "I want children exposed to pornography."
Why do you want that, Joe?
And while we're on the subject, should they check ID's at a strip club? How about on the purchase of print pornography?
It's not a free speech issue. Never has been, and it still isn't now. We have restricted the access of pornographic materials to minors for decades. I find it odd that only recently are people obsessing about ensuring their access to it. And quite coincidental that it's in these same years that those same people vociferously articulate LGBT pedo-enabler arguments.
And as Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote in the April 2024 issue of Reason, the sort of age verification law that some states now favor "creates a record, permanently attaching real identities to online activity that many people would prefer stay private,"
Why? Would would they prefer that if they're so adamant about their defense of it? If this means SO MUCH TO THEM, why won't they proudly stand up for it?
"The only opposition anyone could have to this is based exclusively on, “I want children exposed to pornography.”"
The cost of requiring an ID at a strip club is much different than the cost of identifying millions of random online visitors.
When a person is at a physical point of sale, they already typically have an ID on them and there is a person there capable of checking said ID...maybe in those cases the cost of burdening one of maybe 20 sales that day with a 10 second ID check is not a big deal. Especially when the verification requires no record keeping or data transmission.
We all know the real reason for this is to choke the industry with friction and inconvenience to keep everyone- not just kids- from accessing porn. People will not trust that transmitting their ID to a porn site will keep that information safe. It is a legitimate concern, and it isn't because people want kids accessing porn.
"Why? Would would they prefer that if they’re so adamant about their defense of it? If this means SO MUCH TO THEM, why won’t they proudly stand up for it?"
First of all, that is an absurd construction. We all have a right to privacy- and don't need to justify that right to you. Or the government.
Second, you first. Why don't you post up your name and address right now? I assume you feel strongly about everything you have ever written on this site. Shouldn't you stand behind it with your full identity?
AT must be hiding something…..
AT is obviously not getting any and rather then become a coomer he has gone the whole other direction and become completely puritanical anti-sex and is using the children as an excuse. I think he needs to go the hookers and cocaine route honestly.
The cost of requiring an ID at a strip club is much different than the cost of identifying millions of random online visitors.
No it's not. Present it, and you're done.
than the cost of identifying millions of random online visitors.
Oh my, has the demand for pornography increased that much since the dawn of the internet?
People will not trust that transmitting their ID to a porn site will keep that information safe. It is a legitimate concern
Why? You don't trust pornographers? Yet, you want to prop up their industry? Seems odd.
First of all, that is an absurd construction.
Why is it absurd? You'll defend pornography, but not if you have to be seen doing it? Are you... ashamed of something there?
Second, you first. Why don’t you post up your name and address right now? I assume you feel strongly about everything you have ever written on this site. Shouldn’t you stand behind it with your full identity?
There's nothing I've written that I'd have a problem with children accessing. Do you have a problem with children accessing pornography?
I mean, you can say no. It'd be honest at least. I hope you'll provide a reason if you do, but I'll take the honest admission on its own if that's all you're willing to provide.
"No it’s not. Present it, and you’re done."
Oh okay, so you are just technically incompetent. Next time your kid comes over to "setup the internets", ask them to explain how taking a photo of your ID, encoding it into many bits, transmitting those bits across the internet, to be stored in 3rd party databases, and checked against state databases, then saved as a record on a user's account, thereby linking your online activities to your real identity, is completely different than showing a busy bouncer that id.
"You don’t trust pornographers? Yet, you want to prop up their industry? Seems odd."
It seems odd that you can't distinguish between protecting rights and propping up industries.
"There’s nothing I’ve written that I’d have a problem with children accessing."
Add a grasp of the english language to the list of things AT doesn't get.
I have to believe that you are being intentionally obtuse here. Nobody asked if you care whether kids access your content. At question is whether you want your personal identity linked to what you do online.
And I think you know that this is the issue, since you said, "You’ll defend pornography, but not if you have to be seen doing it? Are you… ashamed of something there?"
So once again, put up or shut up. Just take a photo of yourself, holding your ID, next to a screen showing "Logged in as AT" on Reason, and post it to a sharing site so that we know who you are in real life.
I mean, it isn't even PORN that you'd be linking your identity to. You would just be letting random people on the internet know who AT is in real life- their employer, family, and friends. Do you have something to hide, or not?
"Do you have a problem with children accessing pornography?"
I absolutely have a problem with kids accessing pornography. They shouldn't do it.
Let's say that the government could GUARANTEE that we prevent kids from accessing porn by installing cameras in their foreheads that emit a shock any time they look at porn. Would we be obligated to take that approach? If not, why not?
Oh okay, so you are just technically incompetent. Next time your kid comes over to “setup the internets”, ask them to explain...
Yea, it's not really rocket science. Granny AT uses her phone to scan checks right to her bank account. Point, click, send. Easy peasy.
And if these folks are using porn websites frequently enough, they'll have a nice png or jpg of their ID right there on their desktop that they can use to verify with a simple drag and drop.
Don't pretend like tech is the problem here. You're not fooling anyone.
It seems odd that you can’t distinguish between protecting rights and propping up industries.
What rights aren't being protected? It's a simple ID flash. You did it when you rented a porno from the Blockbuster, you did it when you purchased a skinmag from the convenience store, you did it when you wanted to watch a show at Deja Vu.
Why do you suddenly have an issue with it now, unless your goal is to expose children to pornography?
Nobody asked if you care whether kids access your content.
But that's the issue being discussed. I know you want to try to pivot from that to some general notion of "what you do online" - but that's you trying to avoid the issue.
So once again, put up or shut up.
Why? I'm not posting anything I would object to a child accessing.
We're very specifically talking about things that we DO object to a child accessing. Unless you DON'T object to it, and are for some reason trying to obfuscate that.
Why are you trying to obfuscate that?
I absolutely have a problem with kids accessing pornography. They shouldn’t do it.
Great, so you're on board! Why are we even having this conversation then?
"What rights aren’t being protected? It’s a simple ID flash."
It is not a simple ID flash. You must transmit your ID across the internet to be stored by 3rd parties and connect them to your browsing history. The cost of doing that- from the companies enabling that technology to the individuals whose online browsing behavior has been de-anonymized- is higher than just showing your ID to a bouncer at a strip club.
When you flash your ID to a Blockbuster employee, the cost to your privacy and freedom of association is small- you have had to divulge your identity to one person. On the other hand, when you do it online, the technical solution requires your identity to be transmitted over the internet, to be stored in multiple companies' datastores and to be accessible for government or hackers to look up and/or divulge without your consent.
"Why do you suddenly have an issue with it now, unless your goal is to expose children to pornography"
I "Suddenly" have an issue with it because "suddenly" the government is passing laws that infringe on peoples' liberties.
"We’re very specifically talking about things that we DO object to a child accessing. Unless you DON’T object to it, and are for some reason trying to obfuscate that"
No you are obfuscating.
You started this entire thread "The only opposition anyone could have to this is based exclusively on, “I want children exposed to pornography.”"
That was you. You are insisting that the ONLY reason a person would object to sharing their identity with third parties is to protect porn companies. So prove it. If what you say is true, you should have NO objection to posting your information online- after all, it would not protect the porn industry, who you don't want to protect anyways.
But let's cut to the chase: You aren't going to do it because there are plenty of reasons OTHER than protecting the porn industry. And every reason that led you to dodge my question and obfuscate instead of ponying up your identity are reasons that people surfing for porn would have.
"Great, so you’re on board! Why are we even having this conversation then?"
Because you are not arguing in good faith. I have answered every one of your questions, and you have not answered mine.
1) Why won't you post your personally identifiable information online if the only reason one might object is to protect the porn industry?
2) Let’s say that the government could GUARANTEE that we prevent kids from accessing porn by installing cameras in their foreheads that emit a shock any time they look at porn. Would we be obligated to take that approach? If not, why not?
It is not a simple ID flash. You must transmit your ID across the internet to be stored by 3rd parties and connect them to your browsing history.
Have you noticed they're doing that at the grocery store now as well? When you buy cigarettes and alcohol? I mean, we act like it's this gross violation of privacy, but then we post a video of ourselves drinking and smoking on Facetubegram. So weird.
Again, stop pretending the tech is the issue here.
I “Suddenly” have an issue with it because “suddenly” the government is passing laws that infringe on peoples’ liberties.
They've been "infringing" on those "liberties" for decades. Again, I promise you, if you're under the age of 60, there has NEVER been a time in your life you didn't have to sacrifice revealing your identity and some vital information in order to (legally) obtain a vice. At least in most first world countries.
What's funny is that as the tech makes it more easily accessible, the same tech makes you less comfortable with accessing it. It's kind of like you want to have your cake and eat it too. It's a weird love/hate with the technology, isn't it. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the robot mapping my house and that data being stored somewhere, but man has it made keeping my floors vacuumed easier.
It's a trade-off. You just don't think there should be one. Essentially, you want something for nothing. And you're hiding behind "privacy" in order to rationalize what you perceive to be an entitlement.
Right?
You started this entire thread “The only opposition anyone could have to this is based exclusively on, “I want children exposed to pornography.”
It still is, you just keep kinda talking around it. And here's how:
Because you are not arguing in good faith. I have answered every one of your questions, and you have not answered mine.
Tell you what. Let me answer it this way: if there ever comes a day I have to trade my identity in order to post comments online, I'll stop posting comments online.
I can live with that. Lived with that for many pre-internet years, in fact.
Can you live without the online porn? Or are you willing to see it exposed to children just so that you too can access it anonymously?
If you want anonymous porn so badly that you'll allow its exposure to children - well, then, like I said: The only opposition anyone could have to this is based exclusively on, “I want children exposed to pornography.”
“Tell you what. Let me answer it this way: if there ever comes a day I have to trade my identity in order to post comments online, I’ll stop posting comments online."
Why is that? You said the only reason someone would object to sharing their identity is to save the porn industry. But here you are saying you would protect your identity, even though it would do nothing to the porn industry one way or the other. Why, it's almost as if you have OTHER reasons to protect your identity.
"Can you live without the online porn? Or are you willing to see it exposed to children just so that you too can access it anonymously?”
So here we see the real reason why you are objecting: you are using children as a smokescreen to interfere with everyone's access to porn. You are no different than the people who use school shootings as an excuse to grab guns.
Why is that? You said the only reason someone would object to sharing their identity is to save the porn industry.
That's not what I said. What I said was that the only reason someone would object to sharing their identity is because they want children exposed to pornography.
Look, just say it flat out: children exposed to pornography. Do you support it or not support it?
Show us your ID, AT.
Or at least change your handle to your real name.
Let's see:
OK, so you have nothing to hide. Why didn't you share all your identifying information with all of us, then? *
You're just arguing to argue tonight. Not in good faith. The differences between just showing an ID to a doorman and giving a trove of personally identifiable information, to be stored online, in perpetuity, to someone you don't trust, is completely obvious to anyone not being completely willful.
* Note: I don't want you to doxx yourself. Just a rhetorical statement to mirror your emotional reframing of terms. Please keep yourself safe and anonymous if you want, of course.
The differences between just showing an ID to a doorman and giving a trove of personally identifiable information, to be stored online, in perpetuity, to someone you don’t trust
You mean you don't trust your pornographers?????
Remove the term "pornographers" and replace it with "damned near anyone" there.
As an example, the Sprouts grocery store has started trying a new thing, where they want to collect lots of personal data on their customers. "Savings" that need an app, the payment asks you to type in your phone number first, etc. I had a bottle of cheap wine in my basket last night and the first thing out of the guy's mouth was "Date of birth?"
My response was "None of your goddamned business", mostly because I'm grouchy like that, but also because he wasn't just asking for my age, he was expected to type it in because that's their new thing, they're farming more and more personal data.
He was a dick about it, too. "You're buying alcohol!" My response was "I'm almost 60 years old, I was born in the 60s. I have grey hair for fuck's sake..." He made up a date of birth and typed it in. So now there's one fewer store for me to shop at. Not that it matters, Sprouts has gone in the shitter the last few years, but the final straw was trying to force me into apps and phone numbers and data sharing for their overpriced vegetables.
So, yeah. I don't trust my information with anyone. Never have, though I'm far more vigilant now. Stopped shopping at Vons at the turn of the century because they required a phone number to get the "sale" prices, that are curiously the same as the normal, non-sale prices at the other grocery store chain. I've been complaining about sharing personal info for a long damned time. If I have to give up personal info, I might as well shop at the Costco.
And, since I don't trust anyone anymore, I certainly don't trust them when they're required by the government to retain the data. That's both ripe for a breach AND for a government busybody to rifle through the data to try and embarrass someone who isn't keeping in line.
Why would you be embarrassed?
Now, look, I’m not singling you out for this – but have you noticed that our society is increasingly carrying around large degrees of shame and embarrassment for their life choices?
As a Catholic, I understand this. It’s sin. We’re ashamed of our sins – and we should be. If you’re a thief, or you cheat on your wife, or you commit abortion, or have a homosexual relationship, or in the present case view copious amounts of pornography – that’s not exactly something we want broadcast to our friends and family and coworkers with a big scarlet letter. I mean, it’s literally the very first story in all of human history: The Lord God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?” He answered, “I heard you in the garden but I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself.”
The problem is that we’re carrying the shame of our sins, but for some reason we still want to defend the committing of them as if doing so is a justifiable thing. We rationalize the sins in order to continue doing them (“It’s not hurting anyone,” is among the favorites), and all the while we compound that shame, increasingly afraid of anyone finding out about it. Or, worse, embracing it and emboldening it with the worst of the seven deadly – pride.
Doesn’t it make sense then, to try and discourage the activities in question? Or outright frustrate them? I mean, what’s really so wrong with that? Especially when trying to prevent its exposure to children.
This is, incidentally, why so many parents (rightfully!) have a bee in their bonnet about schools sexualizing their kids. They may be too wayward from the faith to appreciate it, they may not even be able to articulate why – but some part of them knows that handing out condoms and putting gay propaganda in the library and telling boys they can be girls or vice versa and getting them abortions behind their parents back is, for lack of a better term, rebelling against the natural order.
As is facilitating the exposure of pornography to children. And if inconveniencing, or even embarrassing an adult pornography viewer frustrates that, then so be it. They SHOULD be embarrassed for it. And we know they ARE because of how quickly and desperately they become Adam with the fig leaf on the subject.
I get the privacy concern, Stuck. I just don’t really care about it all that much. I don’t want to see you scarlet lettered for anything, but that doesn’t mean we should roll over and enable the activities that might brand you with one. Especially when doing so leaves the door open for kids to walk through.
There is nothing sinful about a person watching porn. You might think so, but the vast majority of people disagree with you.
Likewise, there is nothing sinful about taking a smelly, farty dump, or snoring, or having a hairy birthmark on your chest. And yet there are many reasons why people don't want that information broadcast and linked to them. Largely because social bullies like yourself will tend to use this information to emotionally attack them.
How about this: You can do so much better by going and fixing your own house. Bragging about your Church in an effort to "defend children" is absurd considering that to this day, the Catholic church is one of the largest abusers of children and young men in the world. Stop advocating to change the laws of the country, and instead change the institution that has repeatedly abused children, protected the abusers, and created institutional procedures to keep those abuses covered up.
You might think so, but the vast majority of people disagree with you.
We aren't the arbiters of that sort of thing. Believing we are is the lesson we've refused to learn since the dawn and fall of man.
But you missed the point. There's a reason they feel shame. There's a reason they don't want anyone knowing about it. It's embarrassing. Few, if any, people go around making watercooler talk in comfortable company about how they loaded up this great porno video online and masturbated to it. Why do you think that is? Decorum? Doubtful, because we don't have nearly the same amount of shame in bragging about our sexual conquests (especially in early adulthood) in comfortable company.
There's something about pornography specifically that people don't want to admit to. It's that something that you should be focusing on. And then asking yourself why it's so important to you that you'd tolerate exposing children to it in order to preserve it.
Largely because social bullies like yourself will tend to use this information to emotionally attack them.
What does "emotionally attack them" mean?
Do you mean pointing out the shame that they're plainly ashamed of? And if they're not ashamed of it, how could they be "emotionally attacked" on the subject?
And if they're not ashamed of it, then what's their issue with it being broadcast and linked to them? I mean, they're proud of it, right? Not ashamed in the slightest. So, who cares. They'll defend it with pride. That's the big thing these days, right? Pride, and allies of Pride.
"There’s something about pornography specifically that people don’t want to admit to. It’s that something that you should be focusing on. And then asking yourself why it’s so important to you that you’d tolerate exposing children to it in order to preserve it."
I disagree, and I gave you ample reason why people may not want to discuss it in polite company. I repeat, there is nothing sinful about taking a smelly, farty dump, or snoring, or having a hairy birthmark on your chest. And yet there are many reasons why people don’t want that information broadcast and linked to them.
"What does “emotionally attack them” mean?"
I mean, "Hey look at Joe Bob over there- he takes nasty farty shits. Man what are you eating Joe Bob?" "Hey Susan over there has a viral infection that causes her breasts to have spots. Ew. Susan, how can you live with yourself?"
"Why do you think that is? Decorum? Doubtful, because we don’t have nearly the same amount of shame in bragging about our sexual conquests (especially in early adulthood) in comfortable company."
In fact we often do. Many people do not want people at work knowing that they had sex with their wives last night. And many of the people who have no problem talking about their sexual conquests have no problem talking about the porn they watched last night.
Again, let's see you put your money where your mouth is. Why don't you give us your identity and chronicle the last 10 sexual encounters you had with your spouse? After all, that was a sin free encounter, and you should be PROUD to share it with random people on the internet.
I’m splitting this point off into a separate reply because you’re going down a different road. I’ll go down it with you, but we’re going to focus on the two different issues exclusive of each other.
the Catholic church is one of the largest abusers of children and young men in the world
Wait wait wait – even if that were true (which it’s not), then why do you object to it? Consider what we’re talking about here: A grown adult – especially one in a position of authority – grooming, convincing, or otherwise taking advantage of a young man’s vulnerability, impressionability, and naivete in order to sexualize him and turn him towards deviancy for his own perverted satisfaction, right? I mean, that’s a thing American society supports these days, right? We devote the entire month of June to this crap, for pete’s sake.
Libs of TikTok posts hundreds upon hundreds of people – especially in public education – openly bragging about doing this to children. And we throw them a parade and celebrate their “diversity” as a “strength.” I have yet to see one that’s a Catholic priest.
That’s not to say that pedophile priests don’t exist – they do – but the difference is that the Catholics are ashamed of it. Because they know it’s wrong. You know who’s NOT ashamed of it? The LGBT.
Oh, wait, no, sorry, I didn’t do that right.
The LGBTQQIP2SAA+.
We all know what the + stands for, Overt.
Stop advocating to change the laws of the country, and instead change the institution that has repeatedly abused children
Why not do both?
Pointing to the abuses by sinful actors in the Catholic Church is a deflection. It’s a problem – but it’s a problem meant to distract from the present issue: pornography. Complaining about it doesn’t somehow legitimize pornography that’s easily accessible to young people.
And, better yet, there’s something very simple we can immediately DO about the pornography to help in that regard.
Unless you don’t think it should be helped, in which case refer back to my first line in my first post on the subject.
In which case, your gripes about Catholic priests are entirely disingenuous.
“That’s not to say that pedophile priests don’t exist – they do – but the difference is that the Catholics are ashamed of it. Because they know it’s wrong. You know who’s NOT ashamed of it? The LGBT.”
And yet for all their shame, the Catholic church has not stopped it. In fact, they covered it up and institutionalized a process for silencing victims, and hiding perpetrators where they could avoid justice and commit more abuse. TO THIS DAY the Catholic church follows procedures more interested in covering its liability than preventing and protecting abuse. Victims are directed to use private, Church controlled, reporting venues and to avoid involving outside authorities. They conduct internal reviews and use private settlements to bind victims to confidentiality while protecting abusers from justice.
So when you tell me that your Catholic faith guides you on what is proper and improper, I can happily laugh your moral guidelines off as irrelevant. They are the missives of a serial projector- a person who is happy to hold random strangers to a higher standard of behavior than he holds others of his own faith. To shame people into adopting your faith is to use shame to recruit converts into your cloistered oligarchy where pedophiles and groomers have been and continue to be institutionally protected.
Yea OK, you've got a problem with the Church, whatever. The reality is that you're using that as a deflection. One you employed to avoid answering the actual question. Why do you have a problem with pedophile priests - or pedophile anyone else - exposing young people to sexual activity at all?
Take the Catholicism out of it, and it's no different than anyone else: a grown adult grooming, convincing, or otherwise taking advantage of a young man’s vulnerability, impressionability, and naivete in order to sexualize him and turn him towards deviancy for his own perverted satisfaction.
Are you for or against that? And if the latter, should there be safeguards in place to prevent children from exposure to such things?
a person who is happy to hold random strangers to a higher standard of behavior than he holds others of his own faith.
I'm pretty sure I've never defended pedophile priests in my life. If the Church has, they're mistaken for doing so. But that doesn't mean you can lay that on me.
Remember: my stance here has been that I'm not against very basic and inobtrusive measures (which we've been using for decade) to keep young people from being exposed to inappropriate things. Your complaint, correct me if I'm wrong, is that those measures might embarrass or humiliate someone.
Who cares. Especially since it's 100% avoidable.
“The only opposition anyone could have to this is based exclusively on, “I want children exposed to pornography.””
This is a false statement on its face and even if you drop the egregious “the only opposition” part, it’s still false. There are quite a number of good reasons to object to THIS PARTICULAR formulation of the law, not the least of which is in comparison to other age-based laws, like purchasing alcohol. When you purchase alcohol in-person at a store, there is no possible doubt that you are purchasing alcohol. If you go to the store to buy bread, no one checks your proof of age. There is no (or should be no) permanent record of your purchase of alcohol. The alcohol is well-defined in the law and easily understood by everyone. If a minor attempts to purchase alcohol in a store, the only consequence is being denied. If the store sells alcohol to a minor the store is punished for the violation. If an adult gives alcohol to a minor the adult is punished. If you go online to buy something at a site that sells some restricted items and some non-restricted items, you should only be required to prove your age for the restricted items, not for just going onto the site.
There is no (or should be no) permanent record of your purchase of alcohol.
Why do you have a problem with that? (See above: “Why would you be embarrassed?”) (See also above: “What’s funny is that as the tech makes it more easily accessible, the same tech makes you less comfortable with accessing it.”)
It’s just tech keeping up with tech. Why do you care about anyone knowing your porn-viewing habits? Is there some reason you don’t want people knowing that? If so, what is it?
Again, we see the actual problem here: AT doesn't like these behaviors and wants to shame people for engaging in that behavior. That it "protects children" is a convenient excuse for his support, when actually he is a moral scold right up there with the Prohibitionists of lore.
I don't really care about the behaviors. My point is that if helping keep it from being easily accessible by young people causes you some embarrassment and shame, then I don't really care about your embarrassment and shame. And I honestly wonder why you do if you're so darned defensive and proud of what you're doing.
No this is inaccurate. You clearly see the shame for others as a feature not a bug, or a regrettable cost. You are using "What about the Children" as a smoke screen for making porn harder to access, just as surely as a gun grabber using a School Shooting to call for gun confiscation.
There are many other ways to prevent kids from accessing porn- most of them starting with mindful parenting- that don't include rampant invasion of the privacy of adults. The fact that your personal moral crusade makes you willing to choose not to pursue them is all the evidence anyone needs.
... why would shame be a bug?
Let's get back to a basic question I probably should have asked outright in the first place: is pornography shameful? Should a person be ashamed of it?
I've been operating under the premise that you agreed with that point, but perhaps I was mistaken in assuming that.
Do you think everyone else's kids are YOURS to raise?
I'm FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more concerned about endless Gov-Gun usage trying to State-Parent everyone's kids than I am about you or anyone else allowing their own children to be exposed to pornography.
Part of learning to mind one's OWN F'EN business.
Who elected you to be a GOD over everyone's PERSONAL lifes?
Do you think everyone else’s kids are YOURS to raise?
Nope.
Would you pull a kid out of a burning car? I mean, it's not your kid. Let his parents deal with it. In fact, those stupid Gov-Gun firefighters need to back the hell off too. Mind their own f'en business.
It doesn't take a Gov 'Gun' to pull a kid out of burning car.
Realizing what 'tool' government is would be a big step for most.
Yea, but it's not your kid. They're not yours to raise.
Or save.
RU seriously trying to conflate pulling a kid from a burning car with making laws against websites?
Your argument dude, not mine.
Only because you pretend that pulling a kid from a burning car is the equivalent of trying to raise them.
Not your kid, not your business, not your problem.
Make up your mind. Should we be trying to intervene when other people's children face harm, or not?
Once again. Poking Gov – ‘Guns’ at them is NOT helping.
And pulling them from a burning car =/= trying to raise them.
You’re fixated on your own deceptive delusions.
A nation of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LIMITED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gov-Gun usage.
Whether you realize it or not; You have the mindset of the devil.
FORCED purification.
Nobody's talking about raising them.
Let's ask this instead. What upside is there to NOT intervening when other people's children face harm? Yes, we've kneecapped the government in such regard. Are there any other positives besides that?
"What upside is there to NOT intervening"
Minding your own F'En business on an INDIVIDUALIST notion.
Versus minding everyone else's business on a TOTALITARIAN notion.
You're trying to paint a narrative that pulling a child from a burning car would be going against the INDIVIDUALIST notions of the parents. Where does that stand in reasonable (or even other-legal) analysis?
Like I said -
Once again. Poking Gov – ‘Guns’ at them is NOT helping.
And pulling them from a burning car =/= trying to raise them.
Exactly. Look kid, if you can't figure out how to avoid burning to death, that's your problem. If your parents won't help, that's on them.
Right?
Speaking of videos on the internet, AI has officially gotten weird and scary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnosZlbI0_o
Clearly you have never lived through the 70s.
I think it might have been AI trained on the last part of the Blues Brothers.
That was better than most of the crap on television.
Seems obvious there'd be less intrusive and more effective ways to achieve the stated goal of this statute. Therefore it's probably a pretext to make porn less available, period.
BING!
A large part of PornHub's response to this (and other laws like it) is "don't make us do your homework for you".
Consider age restrictions on entering a bar. Right now, such restrictions are easy enough to enforce, your state-issued ID indicates your age on it, right? So bars can enforce the restriction by checking your state ID.
But what's your online state ID? What can PornHub check? The answer is that they'd have to set-up their own system to check age, because there is no government-aided way to do so that's appropriately scoped for this.
If the state setup an "online ID" and a way for porn sites to check that "ID" for age that was analogous to checking ID at a bar, then the state's argument would be a lot more solid, and the pornographer's far less.
But as-is, the state is making demands that have no reasonable way to be met.
Or to put it another way... with current systems and technology, this is an unreasonable demand. If in ten or fifteen years we all have "digital IDs" that are comparable to a driver's license as far as ubiquity, positive identification, and ease of checking, then this will be much more reasonable.
But we aren't there yet.
A smart child will just use a breached password from a password list and login to an existing account. If you want functional age verification you will need to watch porn on camera. Pornhub will have to hire staff to watch you masterbate to make sure you are the verified individual. The smart kids will then use AI to age modify their faces. The pornhub employees will suddenly find themselves guilty of watching someone underage masterbate. Tricky problem.
Pluggo will apply for that job.
Only State Gov-Guns can raise children!!!! /s
Maybe the biggest problem is ‘Guns’ being the solution for F’En everything….
Beating every crack with a hammer isn't smart 'governing'.
Until people acknowledge what tool 'government' is; they will continue to have problems 'governing' themselves.
The only human asset a monopoly of 'Gun' force can provide is to ensure Liberty and Justice for all. Pretending you have some right to raise others kids isn't 'Justice' or 'Liberty'.
Can anyone say, "VPN?" Just sayin'.
I don't understand how Montana can tell an out of state or out of country website what to do. Doesn't their jurisdiction end at the state borders?
There is little doubt that pornography can damage children and stunt their adult sexuality. Proving adulthood simply requires flashing a drivers license and facial recognition that you are the license holder. The adult could even cover up the name and address on the license. The needed data is picture and birthday. The software exists and there is no need to put any data into any permanent memory. Most devices can take pictures of faces and licenses. What is the problem?
I would completely agree with young children for sure but to be honest are young children looking for this stuff on their own accord. The answer is no unless they happen to stumble upon it by accident. With young adults and teenagers I don’t see a big deal though. If some 14 to 17 year old high school student is jacking off to porn he seeked out on his own accord in the privicy of his own bedroom, It's probably better then them going out and having actual sex and possibly catching an STD or knocking up some chick. There is also the free speech issue that any attempt to try and define pornography/obscenity whatever always ends up being subjective, overtly vague as well as overbroad and underinclusive. In the end this issue is best dealt with by the parents and not the state. If you need the state as a surrogate nanny to help raise you’re children. Maybe you shouldn’t have had them.
I have doubt.
I don't think Gov-Guns are going to ?UN-Damage? children of their inherent sexual desire/curiosity.
Only upon choosing to act on those desires and causing *real* 'damage' to another should that act be illegal.
A 'Gun' (Gov-Gun) is NOT a tool of salvation unless it's used in DEFENSE.
Which brings up another thought.
Why can't a 'security for children' VPN (www) company exist that filters EXACTLY what these parents want??? Lock your children's devises to this one specific VPN and all the security that ever needs or is possible is there.
WHY does poking government 'GUNS' *always* have to be the solution for F'En EVERYTHING??????????? That is the curse of this nation today.